/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.3318276]

How come there aren't any N64 hardware clones?

Too advanced?

[Anonymous No.3318280]

Too expensive to produce, I guess.
There are bootleg N64 carts though. They're not common but I have a bootleg Shadows of the Empire cart I bought back in the 90s.
It doesn't work without a special adapter though.

[Anonymous No.3318304]

Hardware "clones" are usually just ROMs running on NES-on-a-chip devices. They generally use the same chip for all console types. This chip is just some generic device that can simulate the hardware environment of older consoles, the NES specifically. Although there are a lot of inaccuracies as a result of this not being a reproduction of the actual hardware.

Designing an N64-on-a-chip would probably require some very intelligent engineering. I would think someone would be more likely to emulate the N64 on a micro computer than attempt to virtualize the hardware.

[Anonymous No.3318307]

The big issue would be reproducing the SGI Reality Co-Processor GPU which is: 1) Highly proprietary, 2) Rather complicated, 3) Not well documented other than API functions and some general architectural overviews

Nobody knows how units inside do their arithmetic for example

[Anonymous No.3318384]

>>3318307
Yup, this is the biggest hurdle.

The RCP was an awesome chip with lots of programmability, but we don't know enough about it to even emulate it accurately.

[Anonymous No.3318407]

>>3318276

Not made of off the shelf parts but with highly speciallized chips which exact functions are still a mystery to everyone except the few chosen ones of Nintendo who knew the internals.
You'd have to reverse engineer those complex processors.

[Anonymous No.3318408]

>>3318307
It's amazing and kind of scary that 20-year-old hardware is still too advanced for us to figure out.

[Anonymous No.3318416]

>>3318384
>but we don't know enough about it to even emulate it accurately.

They recently decapped both chips, so it's a matter of time. Look for CEN64.

[Anonymous No.3318435]

>>3318416
Eh, RCP was decapped a while ago.

Still doesn't mean we know what these units do on a binary level.

[Anonymous No.3318473]

>>3318276
Because nobody gives a shit about it beyond the Nintendo first party titles and the games made by Rare. Those are already emulated, therefore there is no need to emulate it any better.

[Anonymous No.3318474]

>>3318473
>not caring about Goemon
>N64 emulation

[Anonymous No.3318478]

Man, we can't even recreate the Commodore 64 chipset which was made with 1970s NMOS fabrication, let alone shit from the 90s.

[Anonymous No.3318507]

>>3318478
Isn't the C64 the only computer emulated on the transistor level? Or is it only the 6502 itself, but not the rest of the system?

[Anonymous No.3318512]

>>3318435
Just to follow on from this...

understanding of what RCP really does is limited to a few "overview" flowcharts

with a lot of testing with the API you might be able to get a feeling for reverse engineering though

[Anonymous No.3318515]

>>3318507
No, it's quite impossible to do a 1-1 recreation of the VIC-II/SID because they relied on quirks and exploits in the (now obsolete) NMOS process. The digital parts of the chips wouldn't be hard to reproduce, the analog parts are impossible.

Even then, you'd have to have the schematics and technical notes from the designers which apparently don't exist anymore.

[Anonymous No.3318528]

>>3318515
>The digital parts of the chips wouldn't be hard to reproduce, the analog parts are impossible

SID might be a problem, but AFAIK the analog parts of the VIC-II were used to generate composite video. If you did recreate the thing, why the fuck would you want composite video in this day and age? HDMI or nothing.

[Anonymous No.3318805]

>>3318408
It's not that it's too advanced, but rather that we're going at it with very little in the way of reference material.
We can look at it's closest relatives, made by SGI, but Nintendo made many changes and isn't exactly all that public about them.

It literally has to be reverse engineered by looking at how the games programed for it do, what the game tells the chips to do, or by looking at the individual transistors on the chip and working backwards.

[Anonymous No.3318976]

>>3318276
You can buy the iQue.

[Anonymous No.3319062]

by the time n64 was released, post communist countries were already opened to the west

[Anonymous No.3319223]

>>3318276
Custom parts. Not enough documentation.

>>3318304
>this kid again

>>3318507
Neither. C64 hasn't been emulated at the transistor level and plenty of CPUs are.

[Anonymous No.3319350]

>>3318976
Nintendo made that though, they're the ones who know how the RCP works.

[Anonymous No.3319365]

>>3319062
They wouldn't have been able to clone it either. Even in the 80s, they only cloned systems like the Apple II and Sinclair Spectrum made of off the shelf TTL components.

[Anonymous No.3319390]

>>3318304
For NES games it's probably not that huge a deal because the PPU isn't as explored as, say, the VIC-II.

[Anonymous No.3319408]

>>3318408
Or even 35 year old hardware ala >>3318515

[Anonymous No.3319439]

>>3319408
We actually pretty much completely understand the Commodore 64 chipset (keeping in mind this is MUCH simpler hardware than the N64) but it's not possible to reproduce ICs that relied on specific exploits in the obsolete NMOS process.

[Anonymous No.3319970]

>>3319439
Oh cmon. I'm sure we can 3d print that with fishing line.

[Anonymous No.3319976]

>>3319970
http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51845&sid=ebed3d95839ad582dd8b782a266b52a0

Explained in here. You're not doing jack without the original schematics and designers' notes which are no longer extant.

[Anonymous No.3319989]

>>3318512
>that 4kb texture cache
>console wasn't shipped with Expansion Pack memory from the beginning
truly the Achilles' heel of the N64

[Anonymous No.3320071]

>>3319989
>that 4kb texture cache

Not like there was any room for more >>3318435

That was a lot of *cache* for a fucking graphics chip at the time

[Anonymous No.3320114]

>>3318407
>You'd have to reverse engineer those complex processors.
Or kidnap and torture said individuals for a bit. Or just bribe them. Can we get a kickstarter for either?

[Anonymous No.3320170]

>>3319976
Actually, among all the chattering children in that thread there were are few people who seemed to know what they're talking about and explained how it can be done without all that shit.

[Anonymous No.3320198]

>>3320114

>Stretchgoal: We'll cut their eyelids off

[Anonymous No.3320948]

>>3320170
>unironically using the word "chattering"

[Anonymous No.3320985]

>>3319976
Not saying it couldn't be done, but there's probably still hundreds of thousands (at least) of VIC/SID chips around for replacements.

[Anonymous No.3320996]

>>3320985
This discussion should go in here.

>>3304759

[Anonymous No.3320998]

>>3320996
Generals are cancer.

[Anonymous No.3321002]

>>3320998
You know, you don't have to post in them if you don't like them.

[Anonymous No.3321005]

>>3320985
Yeah although it's more of a problem for Americans than Europeans because most C64s sold here were the breadbox, not the C64C which has a newer revision PCB and chipset that's more reliable and uses less power. C64Cs are very common in Europe, not that common here.

Also VIC-IIs are region-specific and you can't use a PAL chip in an NTSC machine and vice versa.

[Anonymous No.3321342]

>>3321005
Actually you can. A Commodore 64 can be converted from PAL to NTSC and vice versa by swapping out the VIC-II and clock crystal.

[Anonymous No.3322378]

>>3318276
Why bother when there are software emulators that can run on even the cheapest PC hardware? You could probably get one of those 50 dollar android thumb PCs and still run an emulator for N64.

[Anonymous No.3322957]

A lot of N64 features aren't accurately emulated.

[Anonymous No.3322961]

>>3318276
If a market for that shit box existed, Im sure there would be many clones. But no one wants this blotchy fuck all piece of hardware. Except for nostalgia fags, and even they acknowledge that.

[Anonymous No.3322964]

>>3322961
Even SID repros would be more valuable because of hipster synth fags.