/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.3096809]

Why is fog OK when the PS1 does it, but when the N64 does it, it's Hitler?

[Anonymous No.3096816]

Because we focus on other things we hate about the PS1, like the jaggies and the parkinson

[Anonymous No.3096824]

>>3096809
it's not okay when either console does it.

[Anonymous No.3096828]

>>3096824
I have heard people on here say that the PS1 doesn't having a fogging or pop-up problem (while the N64 does).

What games have those people been playing? JRPGs with 2D backgrounds???

[Anonymous No.3096834]

>>3096828

Most likely fanboys, both consoles had draw distance issues, the Saturn as well. It was just a thing back then when devs had to struggle with limitations.

[Anonymous No.3096848]

>>3096834
It's just strange. I've heard people say that games like Soul Reaver and MGS don't have fogging even though they clearly do. It's just that they don't have too many locations with views long enough to see the fog. Obviously one can point to N64 games with fogging, like Turok and Superman 64. But maybe it's because the N64 just has more games that are infamous for fogging? I actually think I've seen way more draw distance problems on PS1 than on N64.

Of course both consoles have games that don't do fogging and they are to be commended. Like Spyro doesn't have fogging (does LOD instead which is nicer) and none of the Rare games have fogging on N64.

[Anonymous No.3096860]

>>3096809
Probably because many PSX games kept that limitation in mind, whereas N64 games seemed almost proud to show it off like in GoldenEye.

[Anonymous No.3096862]

>>3096848
>none of the Rare games have fogging on N64.

You can't be serious.

[Anonymous No.3096868]

>>3096862
Not on the playfield at least, they implemented level of detail occlusion thing correctly by only loading the character models when you get close to them.

Another game with pretty good level of detail loading is Space Station Silicon Valley on N64 and Spyro on Playstation.

[Anonymous No.3096879]

>>3096862

[Anonymous No.3096895]

>>3096862
Rare games implement texture LOD (mipmaps) and SOME polygonal models are faded in when you move closer to them, but that's literally it.

[Anonymous No.3096902]

>>3096860
>N64 games seemed almost proud to show it off like in GoldenEye.
goldeneye only has fog at like extreme distances from the camera

[Anonymous No.3096912]

>>3096902
Like extremely at the end of nearly every hallway.

[Anonymous No.3096917]

>>3096809
On the N64 fog came for "free". It was part of the hardware, and thus used practically everywhere to cover the "pop up" the PSX was berated for.

On the PSX, fog had to be specifically coded in when desired. It didn't just "happen" out of laziness.

[Anonymous No.3096919]

>>3096848
>MGS don't have fogging even though they clearly do

MGS has fogging in literally one point in the game, the snowfield when you're against Sniper Wolf. Every other area in the game has infinite draw distance, and the game goes into 15fps as a result, but it's okay since you're not moving while using the FPV.

Twin Snakes did have massive fog though, on top of that stupid smog filter.

[Anonymous No.3096929]

>>3096912
>Like extremely at the end of nearly every hallway.

hardly, and it's only at the end of the very longest corridors, and even then it doesn't actually hide any detail, it's literally like an colored tint for atmospheric effect

[Anonymous No.3096930]

>>3096919
>Every other area in the game has infinite draw distance

Every other area of the game doesn't need to draw very far.

[Anonymous No.3096941]

Why do we still have this argument? It's obvious the psx was inferior in rendering 3D to the n64. And not because sony was cheap but because consumer level 3D hardware was non-existent at the time of the systems development. So everything inside was done in-house with a lot of improvising and literal guessing as to where tech will go.

[Anonymous No.3096948]

A lot of people preferred the PS1's sharp visuals and pop-up to the N64's bluring and fogging.

>>3096834
Is an amazingly cherrypicked example as that's about the shittiest draw distance in any PS1 game ever.

[Anonymous No.3096952]

>>3096930
Which means games on both consoles should have been designed for indoor locations. Wide open fields were just a bad idea at the time.

[Anonymous No.3096954]

>>3096930
Heliport, tank hangar, the place where you first fight Raven, most areas in the game are quite large even indoors.

I think fog is necessary when hiding environment streaming (unless you're Insomniac level of tech wizards), which didn't happen on MGS1 as each stage was loaded at once. Soul Reaver definitely needed that fog for more than a couple reasons.

[Anonymous No.3096957]

>>3096930
>Every other area of the game doesn't need to draw very far.

Seems a pretty significant distance to me

[Anonymous No.3096960]

>>3096952
They still are, open fields are often sparsely populated with lots of copy pasted sections. It's just an illusion of freedom.

[Anonymous No.3096965]

>>3096952
The N64 has hardware support for large polygons (PS1's coordinate system goes nuts if you make individual polygons too large, also texture perspective will go haywire) and mipmap texture LOD, so that immediately makes it far more suitable to rendering outdoor areas than the PS1.

There's a reason OoT was able to do what it did without fogging, although there were some compromises (engine locked to 20fps). On PS1 doing this would just be plain impossible. You would need 50 times the polygons to do the same thing because they would have to be sufficiently small.

[Anonymous No.3096971]

>>3096948
>A lot of people preferred the PS1's sharp visuals and pop-up to the N64's bluring and fogging.

I don't prefer either.
If a game is well made, it will be good on either console.

Both consoles had draw distance issues and it was up to the devs to make good use of the tools and skills they got to make something decent.

Discussing raw hardware specs is never a good idea because theoretically you can do a lot of things, but when it comes to actually developing games, it's completely different and a lot of other different factors come into play.

Technology discussion on /vr/ (or /v/ or 4chan and the internet in general) is most of the times pretty bad because it's always just guys looking up specs on wikipedia and comparing numbers trying to argue that their childhood console was better than the competitor because it had this more Mhz or this more RAM.

[Anonymous No.3096981]

>>3096957
>Seems a pretty significant distance to me
you're kidding right?

that's just a couple of boxes down

the snowfields with sniper wolf actually provides a proper large area, nothing else compares

[Anonymous No.3096991]

>>3096965
>and mipmap texture LOD

Could be achieved in software on the PS1.

[Anonymous No.3097006]

>>3096991
>Could be achieved in software on the PS1.

The difference is that it has to be managed in software (the CPU has to intervene) and because the mipmaps are not automatically generated, they don't provide smooth transitions between levels (e.g. it's very obvious in Spyro when the textures are changing their detail level).

Not to mention that even in the best software "mipmaps" implementations on PS1, they have to resort to gouraud shading instead of texturing as the "final" mipmap level.

So in summary, it's clever and it works nice, but it's not the real thing.

[Anonymous No.3097016]

Fine then.

There's no fog in the first encounter with sniper wolf.

[Anonymous No.3097042]

>>3097016
That's not a good example either because it's all flat. The Heliport, Canyon and Rex Hangar are much better examples. Even the Dock was quite impressive.

[Anonymous No.3097046]

>>3097016
Yeah I would say this is pretty much the limits of what the game will draw without fog considering that while you are in this view the framerate is atrocious.

[Anonymous No.3097296]

>>3097016
it should be noted that you can enable or disable fog functions. Their primary purpose is to reduce or hide popup. If you are modelling a controlled environment with a known "distant end", you would tune your view frustrum to not cull that distant end, and disable fog

[Anonymous No.3097320]

Because PS1 actually has games

[Anonymous No.3097340]

>>3096809
I love fog. 420 blaze it.

[Anonymous No.3097378]

>>3097320

PS1 only has 1 good game.

At least Saturn and N64 got 3 good games each.

[Anonymous No.3098021]

>>3096809
That's not fog, it's mist over the Lake of The Dead.

[Anonymous No.3098260]

>>3096948
>A lot of people preffered the PS1's
gonna need source on this bullshit

[Anonymous No.3098263]

>>3096948
>PS1's sharp visuals and pop-up to the N64's bluring and fogging
This meme is a cancer

[Anonymous No.3098447]

>>3096809

So N64 is better?

[Anonymous No.3099836]

>>3096816
>Jaggies
Yu rike double bilinear muh filters?

[Anonymous No.3099838]

>>3096809
So ???the PC ports were lazy and buggy.

[Anonymous No.3100141]

>>3096834
>PS1 image is colorful and the sergeant's face is full of joy
>N64 image is grimdark brown and the sergeant looks like he just shat his pants

[Anonymous No.3100204]

>>3096948
Limited-focus and some blur are a natural part of vision. Pop-up and jaggys are bullshit nonsense only found in a game.

[Anonymous No.3100425]

>>3100141
Im probably just falling for bait but I think you might be blind

[Anonymous No.3101736]

>>3100141
You sir have just made my day. Have a cookie.

[Anonymous No.3101892]

>>3100425
He isn't wrong. The PS1 graphics are more saturated and clearer

[Anonymous No.3102320]

>>3096902
>Jungle
>fog like 10 feet away from you
>still 10fps with the drone guns