Quantcast
[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / g / ic / jp / lit / sci / tg / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports / report a bug ] [ 4plebs / archived.moe / rbt ]

Due to resource constraints, /g/ and /tg/ will no longer be archived or available. Other archivers continue to archive these boards.Become a Patron!

/vr/ - Retro Games


View post   

[ Toggle deleted replies ]
File: 43 KB, 320x236, Yoshi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3093073 No.3093073 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

The N64 had a special functionality for rendering sprites. "Texture Rectangles". It also had multiple 2D-oriented microcodes. It also had a special smooth scrolling mode for 2D.

http://level42.ca/projects/ultra64/Documentation/man/pro-man/pro14/index.html

Despite having far superior 2D capabilities to the PS1, almost nobody was interested in making 2D games for the N64. Such a pity.

>> No.3093080

It's also got 4 pixels-per-cycle blitting support, so that gives it a theoretical fillrate of 246 MPixel/s which is insane for 1996 graphics.

>> No.3093321

I like how your picture shows prerendered graphics, designed to look like a 3D game. Even your 2D example is ashamed of being 2D.

>> No.3093335

>>3093073
The PS1 had a special functionality for rendering sprites. "Rectangles". It also had multiple 2D-oriented opcodes. It also had smooth scrolling by indefinitely drawing off screen.

http://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm#gpurenderrectanglecommands

Having adequate 2D capabilities compared to the PS1, but no retarded executives forcing abstract muffled 3D visuals almost anybody was interested in making 2D games for the PS1. Such a great thing.

>> No.3093346
File: 146 KB, 600x589, 36703-Contra_-_Legacy_of_War_[U]-3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3093346

>THREE DEE IS THE FUTURE ZOMFG POLYGON COUNT SPRITES FTW

Even though I like lots of games from 5th gen it was some truly dark times in this aspect. Many franchises could got an awesome 2D game as the capabilities of the consoles were way higher than 8/16 bit consoles but they prefered to stick with (most of time) mediocre 3D because FUTURE

>> No.3093534

>>3093335
Get a load of this cranky manbaby

>> No.3093563

at least we got Mischief Makers, which was better than any 2d platformer on PS1.

>> No.3093604

>>3093073
>>3093335
Both have 2D hardware but were not designed primarily as 2D consoles. The Saturn was flat-out an arcade-class 2D dream machine with some 3D thrown in at the last minute.

Comparing hardware will get you nowhere. Just play the damn games you like and stop waving around a 20-year old long dead detached penis.

>> No.3093642
File: 213 KB, 901x637, wonder project j64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3093642

>>3093321
>>3093563
Only 2 real 2D games on the N64: This and BangaiO.

>>3093346
At least we got Rapid Reload and Wolf Fang and Adventure of Little Ralph.

>>3093073
>almost nobody was interested in making games for the N64. Such a pity.
It just wasn't a popular console, especially not in Japan, where it really mattered at the time. The PS1 has a lot of actual 2D, because it was popular and Japan still liked sprites.
I think sprite based games would have worked create with the small cartridge space that was available to the N64.

>> No.3093648

>>3093642
>Only 2 real 2D games on the N64: This and BangaiO.
Mischief Makers was a 2d platformer. You can literally only move in two dimensions. It doesn't matter what the graphics looked like.

>> No.3093652

>>3093648
>It doesn't matter what the graphics looked like
for this thread, it very much does, as the subject is the implementation

>> No.3093696

lol nobody gives a fuck about 2D

>> No.3093704

Also I'm pretty sure these crazy specs are with most hardware effects turned OFF as it's always the case with tech demos. The Dreamcast can still rek them both.

>> No.3093715

This info is useless in the hands of laymen. It's like when you compare 4th gen specs and conclude the SNES can render more sprites on screen than the Genesis but in real world terms we all know how it turned out, with the SNES lagging like a motherfucker.

>> No.3093719

>>3093704
Dreamcast is like a generation ahead

>> No.3093731

>>3093715
Shoo, shoo Autismo.

>> No.3093751

>>3093719
HALF generation but yeah you're correct.

>> No.3093758

>>3093731
Fight me, the SNES was only good for screenshots.

>> No.3093759

>>3093758
So was your mom

>> No.3093764

>>3093759
Touché.

>> No.3093861

>>3093073
>Despite having far superior 2D capabilities to the PS1, almost nobody was interested in making 2D games for the N64. Such a pity.

A lot of that "superior" quality is wasted on the brute force work of drawing 1 or 2 backgrounds, which in itself eats a lot of available memory.

And then you need shitload more memory for sprites and animations.

Oh and you need the cart space to support that all.

Let's also not forget that this is all framebuffer based hardware, while the leading arcade 2d games all used tilemaps and hardware sprites, and this was very difficult to port to framebuffer based systems. Saturn got a tilemap chip, that's why it was uniquely situated for quality 2d ports. N64 and Playstation were not. They had to brute-force raster effects.

But neither of those really matter since the deciding factor was cost. You need a bigger cart to hold all animations, which costs a lot of money.

Making a 2d game on the N64 would've cost too much, and would've returned too little.

>> No.3094123

https://youtu.be/wwkxkoXZbuY

>> No.3094295

>>3093696

>>>/oven/

>> No.3094317
File: 230 KB, 381x277, Yoshi's_Story_-_Screenshot_-_Cloud_Cruising.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094317

>>3093642

But Yoshi's Story and Mischief Makers are "real 2D games". They aren't made with polygon graphics.

On the other hand, other side-scrollers on N64, like Kirby Crystal Shards or Goemon's Great Adventure are indeed 3D games graphically.

>> No.3094320
File: 24 KB, 338x330, Abe's_Oddysee_Cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094320

>>3093563
>which was better than any 2d platformer on PS1.

'no'

>> No.3094321
File: 103 KB, 693x1021, hitlerbot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094321

>>3094295
You inspired me, anon

>> No.3094325
File: 38 KB, 387x257, MischiefMakers--article_image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094325

>>3094317
>Mischief Makers are "real 2D games". They aren't made with polygon graphics
How is that background not made with polygons?

>> No.3094337
File: 28 KB, 422x282, Mischief_Makers_(USA)-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094337

>>3094325

Looks more like a single plane with mode 7-ish effects.
Here's a better example of actual polygon graphics on Mischief Makers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsWvE2jZpAo

Some platforms there are actual 3D polygon graphics as well as the backgrounds effects.
But those are about the only times you see these kind of graphics on the game, most of the game looks like pic related.
Marina's sprite and most of the other graphical assets on the game are purely 2D, not polygon (as the aforementioned Kirby or Goemon games).

Take for example Symphony of the Night. We all can agree it's one of the most famous 2D games on 5th gen, right? Yet it still has some 3D polygonal graphics here and there (for example, the coffin on the save room). Having some 3D effects doesn't make the whole game 3D, it's still 2D for the most part.

>> No.3094338

Nintendo 64 video output is so bad, no self respecting 2D artist would touch it.

>> No.3094340

>>3093335
>>3093604
One of Playstation's flagships, Wipeout, was more playable on a Saturn due to some weird not-technical reason.

>> No.3094341

>>3094337
>mode 7-ish effects
I'm not aware of the N64 having hblank effects. It also has a framebuffer, from what I understand

>Marina's sprite and most of the other graphical assets on the game are purely 2D, not polygon
fairly common theme on the N64, even for "full" 3D games. Also >>3093321

>Having some 3D effects doesn't make the whole game 3D
Nobody's claiming that. It's still not using the 2D api for these things, it does not dare to commit to fully 2D visuals.

>> No.3094346

would N64 have been more successful if it was backwards compatible with SNES?

>> No.3094347

>>3094340
>some weird not-technical reason
explain

>> No.3094348

>>3094340
It ran at a lower framerate than the PS1 version. I can't see how that makes it "more playable", moreso vice versa...
Wipeout DID run faster on the Saturn than the Playstation though, but I don't see why people would consider that a big pro due to the lower framerate.

>> No.3094350
File: 429 KB, 1335x2000, 1432496549258.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094350

>>3093604
>muh dedicated tilemap chip

When will saturnfags accept the truth? The PSX GPU was so fast it could fully emulate multiple tilemaps and still runs laps around the Saturn. The Saturn is a blunder.

>> No.3094351

>>3094340
Really? I always got the opposite impression and framerate wise they seem to play the same with the PS1 having prettier grafx.

>> No.3094354
File: 58 KB, 150x150, Mischief1419838867501.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094354

>>3094341
Anyway I meant that your example of "polygon graphics" was wrong. Next time you want to say Mischief Makers has 3D graphics, use that Vertigo video I posted which has actual polygons, your screenshot doesn't have any.

And I dunno, pic related looks like a detailed 2D sprite to me, kinda like Alucard on SOTN.

Mischief Makers is weird, it looks like a mix of traditional sprite-based 2D, like Gunstar Heroes or SOTN, and pre-rendered 2D like DKC, but ultimately I'd say it looks more traditional than pre-rendered.
Yoshi's Story has a lot more pre-rendered stuff going on, but still, they're fully 2D games. What you're discussing is the art direction. DKC looks "3D", but you wouldn't dare to say it is anything but a 2D game.

>> No.3094356
File: 69 KB, 480x272, vineta_kt4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094356

>>3094347
>>3094348
>>3094351
Yes it's true the Saturn port wasn't as smooth as PS1/PC, plus some very crappy transparency effects. But with the first Wipeout, the driving was hit or miss. Originally if your ridiculous hitbox touches the wall, even as much of a pixel of your wing, your ship comes to a stall. I saw that the Saturn port does not do this. Praise the lord, someone get the Saturn emulator ready. Sorry for being misleading. That bump only thing stopping me from giving Wipeout 1 a chance.

>> No.3094367

>>3094356
I thought only 2097 (the best IMO) got a Saturn release, and the gameplay didn't change at all between releases. You're right about the first Wipeout, but that's a problem with the game, not the PS1. You don't really need a Saturn emulator, just get 2097/XL for either PS1 or PC (first is preferable). Or try WIpeout 64 since it's based on 2097.

>> No.3094368

>>3094354
dude i love mischief makers so much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvPVsSO2uc

>> No.3094374

>>3094356
>I saw that the Saturn port does not do this
I doubt. The Saturn port is a lazy one and I doubt they would've actually tampered with the game's mechanics for the better.

>> No.3094375

>>3094354
>Anyway I meant that your example of "polygon graphics" was wrong
because it's showing polygons?

>looks like a detailed 2D sprite to me
prerendered flat shaded polygons, check the legs

>What you're discussing is the art direction
Kind of, yes. I am aware that these are flat sprites, from a technical viewpoint. However, the content of these sprites is prerendered, trying to give off the impression of realtime 3D, hence my comment in >>3093321 Prerendering is pretty much the same as using lookup tables for computations. It's performing computations upfront, to save the computing power during realtime application.

>DKC looks "3D"
Exactly, that's the point I tried to make. 2D games that pretend to not be 2D.

>but you wouldn't dare to say it is anything but a 2D game.
On a technical level, it definitely is fully 2D. But the moment you mentally substitute the pre-computed 3D visuals, it turns out to be a crude form of 3D graphics, with 2D gameplay.

>> No.3094384

>>3094367
As I understand it, you're just suggesting to play XL instead. I've played all of them to death. My point was I never gave Wipeout 1 a chance because of the physics and it seems the Saturn version was tuned better for whatever reason.

>>3094374
Pretty much what I thought but I don't think this video was faked:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEFwzd2-Ckc

If anything, I think it's believable because Psygnosis realized how awful it was to play below 30 fps. I'm going to get an emulator because this is underlooked.

>> No.3094387

>>3094338
>Nintendo 64 video output is so bad, no self respecting 2D artist would touch it.

yeah dude cause a 2D pixel art game would have anti-aliasing and bilinear filter turned on

maybe they'd also turn on z-buffer (even though there's no z-axis in a 2D game)

hurrrrrr

>> No.3094393

>>3094387
>there's no z-axis in a 2D game
You'd be surprised

>> No.3094395

>>3094375

I don't see polygons on the screenshots you posted. The video I posted does have polygons though.

>prerendered flat shaded polygons, check the legs

I know, thick, right?
It still looks like a traditional 2D sprite to me, as I said, closer to Alucard than closer to any 3D model.

Anyway I guess we're discussing art styles which wasn't why I originally replied to you.

>> No.3094406

>>3094384
Whoops, didn't even know the first one got a Saturn release. In which case the answer is pretty simple, it was made afterwards and they had the time to listen to complaints and tune the game for the Saturn release, which is basically an advanced revision. I'm wondering how the DOS version handles.

>> No.3094415
File: 16 KB, 387x257, polygons.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094415

>>3094395
>I don't see polygons on the screenshots you posted
pic related

>It still looks like a traditional 2D sprite to me
willful ignorance

>than closer to any 3D model
it is one

>I guess we're discussing art styles
it's closely related

>> No.3094420

>>3094406
back when wipEout came out, I got a demo of it on one of the then-common gaming mag CDs. Unfortunately, when the demo was about to launch the actual 3D engine, it would crash with a page fault. Before the 3D engine it had the full game intro though. I must have watched that intro dozens of times.

>> No.3094425

>>3094384
>Psygnosis
The Saturn version wasn't ported by Psygnosis, it was done by Perfect Entertainment.

>> No.3094431

>>3094384
>I'm going to get an emulator because this is underlooked
Report your findings.

>> No.3094435

>>3094415

Your pic related is just a 2D background with zooming effects.
The moving platforms on the video I posted are in fact 3D polygon models.

About the rest, I don't know what you're trying to argue anymore. Marina's sprite doesn't look like a 3D render to me, it looks like a highly detailed 2D sprite like Alucard. Yes, SOTN's sprites are also "flat polygons". It's still 2D dude.

>> No.3094437
File: 39 KB, 640x448, 00000000.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094437

>>3094431

>> No.3094441
File: 857 KB, 960x1200, 2D N64 Games.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094441

>>3093073

>> No.3094442

>>3094435
>2D background with zooming effects
certainly doesn't look like it to me

>flat polygons
I said flat shaded polygons. That phrase has a meaning. It's a prerendered 3D model

>> No.3094448

>>3094442
>certainly doesn't look like it to me

Let's agree to disagree then.

>It's a prerendered 3D model

So you'd say Symphony of the Night isn't a "real 2D game" as well?
Keep in mind it also uses the same kind of "flat shaded polygons" and 3D background effects (like in the cathedral)

>> No.3094457
File: 30 KB, 640x448, 00000002.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094457

>>3094431
Okay I finished Altima. The collision in the Saturn port was changed from a full halt to a forgiving bump. However it runs at what seems to be 20 fps and poses problems of its own. And all that was tested on venom speed. Probably still recommend people to play it on PS1 and just get gud with perfect laps.

>> No.3094464

>>3094448
>Let's agree to disagree then.
No

>real 2D game
No idea what you're trying to imply.
The games exhibit 2D gameplay, and use, at least partially, 3D visuals, or visuals designed to look like realtime 3D rendering.
Looking at screenshots and videos of SotN I don't see any polygonal work on the player character, 2D or otherwise

>> No.3094472
File: 1.39 MB, 1920x1200, castlevsotnWlpr3-1920x1200.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094472

>>3094464
>No

Easy there champ.

>Looking at screenshots and videos of SotN I don't see any polygonal work on the player character, 2D or otherwise

Try playing the games, looking at screenshots or checking random videos won't make you knowledgeable about the games you're trying to discuss.

>> No.3094474 [DELETED] 

>>3093073
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSb1UpGZpJA

>> No.3094484

>>3094472
The player character is not on that screen

>> No.3094495

>>3094317
>But Yoshi's Story and Mischief Makers are "real 2D games". They aren't made with polygon graphics.

No, they are just drawn on flat polygons.

No hardware after the SNES supported hardware sprites, they were all framebuffer based polygon garbage. Even the Saturn was like that, but it gets a pass because it only supported quadrilateral polygons, and because it had a hardware tilemap engine.

>> No.3094498

>>3094495
>No hardware after the SNES supported hardware sprites
The GBC, GBA and DS don't exist, you heard it here first

>> No.3094504

>>3094495
But framebuffer based systems are more flexible, plus they can be really fast.

Who needs hardware sprites when the N64 can theoretically blit 4 million pixels at 60 times per second?

>> No.3094514

>>3094484

The point of that pic was the background effects on the cathedral.
You have played SOTN, right?

>> No.3094516

>>3094495
This post is comparable with "PS1/Saturn 3D isn't real 3D" loons except on the opposite side of the spectrum.

When a function, which isn't even polygon related unless you want to decap each GPU and find out yourself, gives the same result as "hardware sprites" does it matter whether they are actually "2D" or not?

>> No.3094517

>>3094514
You responded to
>I don't see any polygonal work on the player character
(note the "on the player character")
which in turn was a response to
>Yes, SOTN's sprites are also "flat polygons"
The use of polygonal backgrounds was not in dispute

>You have played SOTN, right?
No, not my kind of game

>> No.3094519

>>3094516
>does it matter whether they are actually "2D" or not?
for purity reasons, yes, very much. Framebuffers allow post-processing and effects that are not rooted in sprites or tiles

>> No.3094523

>>3094516
>"PS1/Saturn 3D isn't real 3D"

their texture mappers at least aren't 3D and that is literally irrefutable

>> No.3094526 [DELETED] 

>>3094517

Well, again, try playing the games you're trying to discuss at least.

Pic related is a closed up gif of Marina's sprite. Where are the polygons? I don't see any, legs or otherwise, looks like a traditional 2D sprite to me.

>> No.3094527
File: 109 KB, 500x433, MischiefMarina.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094527

>>3094517

Well, again, try playing the games you're trying to discuss at least.

Pic related is a closed up gif of Marina's sprite. Where are the polygons? I don't see any, legs or otherwise, looks like a traditional 2D sprite to me.

>> No.3094531

>>3094516
>"PS1/Saturn 3D isn't real 3D"
How can anyone look at the likes of Tomb Raider, Soul Reaver, or the latter two Gex games and even have that cross their minds?

>> No.3094538

>>3094519
So what you're saying is that bitmap based platforms like the Amiga and PC cannot draw actual 2D graphics? PC's graphical hardware also operated on page buffers, and you can't tell me that's 3D focused hardware.

And yes, I think Saturn, PS1 and N64 all have direct access to their respective framebuffers like the PC did. In fact it's the only way to display true 24bit on the PS1.

>> No.3094541

>>3094527
>try playing the games you're trying to discuss at least
Screenshots and videos are pretty solid when it comes to analyzing graphics engines.

>Where are the polygons?
must have been an artifact of the low color depth in the other gif, it looks fairly round in this gif

>traditional 2D sprite
certainly prerendered, but more like the then-typical raytracing, as opposed to something polygonal

>> No.3094542
File: 152 KB, 564x1166, 1458895835351.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3094542

>>3094531
pretty much everything else is 3D though, except maybe the sometimes dodgy z poly sort

>> No.3094546

>>3094474
what the hell

>> No.3094547

>>3094538
>So what you're saying is that bitmap based platforms like the Amiga and PC cannot draw actual 2D graphics?
No. Burned that strawman down magnificently though.

>> No.3094552

>>3094320
That's not even a platform game, it's a puzzle game.

>> No.3094563

>>3094504
>framebuffer based systems are more flexible
Framebuffer based systems have higher latency. Traditional sprites+tiles graphics chips only buffer a single line, framebuffers buffer a whole frame.

>> No.3094571

>>3094441
What's the one with the racing hamsters?

>> No.3094585

>>3094527
turn on wireframe mode and you'll see

>> No.3094863

>>3093604
>The Saturn was flat-out an arcade-class 2D dream machine
>can't even handle Metal Slug at an acceptable frame rate

>> No.3095108

>>3094571
I want to know this too.

>> No.3095115

>>3094863
The arcade originals also didn't have an acceptable frame rate.

>> No.3095123

>>3094552
>platformers can't have puzzles

>> No.3095362

>>3093604
I love the saturn but it really couldn't handle Neo geo games or maybe SNK didn't program them enough to use the saturn's true potential especially metal slug and maybe KOF the voices are poor considering the use the 1 MB RAM. Rubuto and VING did some amazing jobs porting many arcade classic onto the saturn but SNK's were just ok at best.

>> No.3095387

Is there a plugin to get Yoshi's Story running correctly on Project64?

It's really the only N64 game I want to play at the moment. Albeit, I do have it on my Wii.

>> No.3095405

>>3093335
>2D-oriented opcodes
ok that one actually got a chuckle out of me

>> No.3095407

>>3095387
glide64, any version will do

>> No.3095413

>>3095405
Seems to be correct.
http://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm#gteopcodesummary

>> No.3095419

>>3095115
Akshully Slug 1 was 60fps, they didn't switch to 30 until 2 onwards.

>>
Name (leave empty)
Comment (leave empty)
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Password [?]Password used for file deletion.
Captcha
Action