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/vr/ - Retro Games


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3065618 No.3065618 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Was Mode 7 good?
How did it work?
Why no other games on other platforms replicated it?

>> No.3065639

>>3065618
it's just basically a texture, mapped to a flat plane, that can rotate and scale

>> No.3065685

>>3065618
Sega CD had it, and also had sprite scaling.

>> No.3065686

>>3065618
Those Contra 3 levels were fun fuck everybody

>> No.3065730
File: 262 KB, 1408x801, mode7.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3065730

>>3065618
1) I liked it.
2) Linear Algebra.
3) Special Herdwere.

>> No.3065736

>>3065618
Sega Saturn shits all over SNES' mode 7. It could do "mode 7" up to five times in one draw.

>> No.3065769

>>3065736
Well, yeah, it's a generation ahead. That's like saying that PS3 shits all over PS2.

>> No.3065808

>>3065769
OP was wondering why no other platforms had it. I posted an example of a platform having much better mode 7. Why are you getting asspained?

>> No.3065845

>>3065618
Because other platforms didn't name their similar features mode 7.

It's not very exotic math or graphics, and it wasn't then either. They just chose to dedicate die and ROM space to a standard implementation of it, in hopes that developers would use it.

>> No.3065897

>>3065808
>I don't understand implied context
How did you pass grade school?

>> No.3065940

>>3065639
it's basically wrong

>> No.3065973 [DELETED] 

>>3065940
You're basically a dick sucking faggot

>> No.3066043

>>3065618
>was mode 7 good?
At the time, it was impressive. The few games that used it heavily like pilotwings, mariokart, f-zero vindicate including it imo. Pilotwings and F-Zero launched at or near launch and helped sell the system to people I'd assume.
>Why no other games on other platforms replicated it?
SNES was the last console of that generation to release and the most advanced. Although i think the genesis was capaple of doing a more primitive form of it. Wacky Races for genesis/mega drive seems to be using something like mode 7 but I'm not sure. It didn't release but there are vids of it.

>> No.3066068

How come no games used both super fx polygons and mode 7 at the same time? It would have really spruced up star fox if the planetary missions had textured ground planes.

>> No.3066076
File: 82 KB, 640x455, 2752711-5315119370-51469.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3066076

>>3066068
They tried:

>> No.3066187

>>3066076
got a screenshot to prove that? Everything I find is fully polygonal

>>3066043
it's not really possible. The SNES can't do polygons on its own, it's entirely sprite and tilemap based. The polygons you see in Star Fox are actually a single background layer, with unique tiles, where tiny parts of the screen are drawn into the tiles, to form the big picture.
Mode 7 only supports a single backround layer. The whole "plane on the ground" effect requires that the SNES can manipulate the zoom level of that background layer.
So in order to use Mode 7 and polygons together you'd need at least two background layers, as the one with the polygons on must not be distorted.

>> No.3066198

I think it was cool at the time and as people said, other consoles like Sega CD and Saturn could do it.

I don't get the hate it gets, it's not like mode 7 was a "gimmick" that ruined games as some people imply. F-Zero is still fun to play, and the mode 7 in Super mario world (for example, the rotation on the reznors or the moving platform on some koopalings and their sprite rotation) doesn't make the game "gimmicky".

Another thing is that a lot of people seem to blame mode 7 for anything they migh consider "gimmicky". I've seen people saying the backgrounds in Axelay are mode 7, when they are not.

I just think it's something people grew to hate due to how mode 7 was used in advertising, like how blast processing became a joke (and then it went full circle and people are now actually saying blast processing is real and Genesis is, liek, the fastest thing alive)

>> No.3066223

>>3065730
fuck off, that pic has nothing to do with mode 7 and you know it

>> No.3066387

>>3065808
>is shown his obvious stupidity
>"o-omg, why are you so asspained???"

Gosh, what an effective way of embarrassing yourself.

>> No.3066396

>>3066198
Well, it was a lot faster than the SNES.

>> No.3066405

>>3066396

Yeah, and mode 7 isn't a bad thing either. People just hate mode 7 because it was used to advertise the SNES, but it was also a real feature.

F-Zero has mode 7 AND it's pretty fast.

>> No.3066426

>>3066405

I never really saw the marketing as a kid. I just saw mode 7 at funcoland circa 2000 as was like "that's just a picture being spun around".

>> No.3066429

>>3066043
>SNES was the last console of that generation to release and the most advanced
Then why were SNES ports of Neo Geo games always worse?

>> No.3066608
File: 100 KB, 635x444, Sonic-CD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3066608

>>3066426

Well no wonder you weren't impressed by mode 7 effects in the year 2000, 2 generations after the fact.

>> No.3066614

>>3066429

I liked Fatal Fury Special better on SNES than on Genesis myself.

but anyway "most advanced" is relative, we've been through the differences between SNES and MD countless times in these threads so I don't think I need to go through them, but there is no clear winner, really. And it always depended more on the developers than on the systems' pure raw power.

>> No.3066627
File: 26 KB, 640x448, 1436509408324.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3066627

>>3065618
>Why no other games on other platforms replicated it?

>> No.3066792 [DELETED] 
File: 142 KB, 299x410, 1375236092183.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3066792

>>3066223
The picture has nothing to do with SNES hardware, but it does show you how to implement Mode 7 on modern hardware.

>> No.3066796

>>3066792
Or in other words it shows you how you can interpret Mode 7 as a polygon.

>> No.3066805 [DELETED] 

>>3065940
you're basically a cock sucking faggot

>> No.3066828

>>3066614
You misunderstood that question. The point was that the Neo Geo was the top dog of that generation, spec-wise.

A game like Metal Slug wouldn't be possible on any other system of that generation. Even the Saturn struggled with that game.

>> No.3066906

>>3066828
>Even the Saturn struggled with that game.

That's only because the Saturn version of Metal Slug is extremely sensitive to the type of expansion RAM used. Anything but the official bundled RAM causes slowdown.

Saturn was far more powerful than Neo Geo in every respect.

>> No.3066924

>>3065618
Personally I fucking love Mode 7. IDK what it is, mode 7 and early 3D just make me feel really comfy.

>> No.3066935

>>3066828
Am I right in thinking that the Neo Geo couldn't do "Mode7" as it didn't have sprite rotation, just scaling?

DESU, while the console did have nice hardware it's secret sauce was 330mbit ROM and later the 1Gbit version. I'm sure the SNES could have managed had the Fatal Fury cart been of equivalent size.

>> No.3066942

>>3066935
Neo Geo has more than enough CPU power to rotate sprites in software. Even the Genesis had enough power to do it, and the Neo Geo's 68000 is literally a much higher clocked version.

With all the ROM space and processor expansions in the world, SNES will always be nipple crippled by a very slow bus speed and low display resolutions when in high color modes.

>> No.3066974

>>3066906
He hit a nerve there buddy?

Saturns specs may have been better, but it's RAM was just fucking goofy, and it was CD based. two HUGE limitations, when you compare it to the Neo-Geo. Which is why 2D games looked better and played smoother on the NG.

It's not an insult of any kind, it's just the truth. And you can sit there and say "well, if they'd PROGRAMMED better..." but that's not what matters. What got released IS.

The Saturn was, by in large, a very lackluster console. Saturn fans, rather than just enjoy what they personally like and let everyone else fuck off, instead attempt to assert themselves in EVERY topic and argument.

>> No.3066986

>>3066974
>RAM was just fucking goofy, and it was CD based. two HUGE limitations, when you compare it to the Neo-Geo.

Saturn's RAM wasn't "goofy", it's just that the Expansion RAM isn't the same speed as the regular RAM. It's asynchronous. But nevertheless, all of Saturn's RAM is much faster than Neo Geo's and on top of that, Saturn has TONS more RAM (Neo Geo doesn't even have a MB).

So the problem literally was down to programming.

>And you can sit there and say "well, if they'd PROGRAMMED better..." but that's not what matters. What got released IS.

You can make a PS4 run slower than a PS2 through inept programming. That doesn't mean the PS2 is more powerful than the PS4.

>> No.3067039
File: 2.03 MB, 352x288, Lufia II.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3067039

Mode 7 well done was pretty cool

>> No.3067180

>>3065730
>2) Linear Algebra.
I always imagined a trapezium of points (each corresponding to display pixel) that could be tapered and rotated against the texture in question, then where the points fall on the texture, those colours are put into the corresponding place in the display buffer.

>> No.3067183

>>3065618
mode 7 was a mode where you could zoom and rotate a background layer. The perspective effect was achieved by combining that with the ability to change graphics parameters during horizontal retrace, ie you couldrotate and zoom each scanline differently and obtain the perspective.

the GBA replicated it (where it actually was mode 4), but post-snes consoles had polygon-oriented hardware that essentially made mode 7 obsolete.

>> No.3067292
File: 886 B, 171x40, gif.latex.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3067292

>>3067180
That's one way to look at it. Technically the SNES performs an affine transformation (matrix multiply+vector addition). If you were to apply the transform to a rectangular grid of points, then this is equivalent to your "trapezium" visualization. Matricies and vectors are just how you make that idea exact.

>> No.3067379

>>3066426
It was a pretty big deal in 1991 tho.

>> No.3067517
File: 12 KB, 160x160, 00004.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3067517

>>3065808
>Why are you getting asspained?

get a load of this fucking clown over here

>> No.3067531

>>3067292
So the vector addition is moving around and the matrix stuff is for the distortion and rotation? I read about that kind of thing (with respect to OpenGL) a while ago. Don't fully understand it though.

>> No.3067536

>>3065897
>>3066387
>>3067517
SNESfags are so pathetic. Your "mode 7" is nothing special, any console can scale and rotate a layer. Get the fuck over it.

>> No.3067538

>>3067536
ok >>>/v/

>> No.3067547

>>3067536
>any console
Then why does the special stage on Sonic 1 look so jerky? But, then, you probably think the morphing fish and stuff in the background are real polygons or something.

>> No.3067557

>>3065618
>Was Mode 7 good?

If was a gimmick, but admittedly it led to some interesting early semi-3d games.

>How did it work?

You have a background that could be rotated and zoomed; change the rotation and zoom values every scanline and you can apply a perspective correct distortion to it. This way it looks like a huge, three dimensional ground texture.

>Why no other games on other platforms replicated it?

Because it only gave you 1 fixed background, which was not too useful for 3d games. Additionally, tile-based background hardware was also not useful in 3d games, so future hardware just dropped it in favour of brute-forcing bigger and bigger polygon throughput.

The Saturn still had a dedicated 2d tilemap chip, and could actually do "mode 7" grounds in hardware without HDMA or per scanline tricks - you just uploaded the matrix of the 3d perspective and it twisted the background in that direction. It could also do invert it halfway through, to give you both a ground and a skybox.

>> No.3067562

>>3067557
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwW5y4rrvwk

>> No.3067568

>>3066043
>Wacky Races for genesis/mega drive seems to be using something like mode 7 but I'm not sure. It didn't release but there are vids of it.

It looks like it uses straight up polygonal ground, hence the very small screen (it was generated in software, so the only way to keep up framerate was to reduce screen size).

It IS possible to do mode 7 on the megadrive, since the 68k is fast enough the manually apply the perspective distortion, but you need extra memory to write to. You basically have the original tile in memory, then you write it out diagonally as per a math formula into memory, and then transfer the rotated background into VDP. The Mario kart demo for Megadrive sets up 64k external on-cart memory to do this (the memory usually reserved for save carts).
It might be possible to do it without extra memory, but then you'd have to limit the screen size. The megadrive cpu was just that fucking fast. Blast processing, bitch.

>> No.3067571

>>3067562
Not bad. Why wasn't it released? Too late in the console's lifecycle?

>> No.3067583

>>3067571
it is homebrew.

>> No.3067683

>>3065808
>tienes no juegos

>> No.3067707 [DELETED] 

Most Mode 7 effects get mistaken for parallax scrolling that makes games look pseudo-3D. Whenever you see a large, ugly texture get zoomed, that's the actual mode 7 being used.

>> No.3067776
File: 90 KB, 600x600, GenesisDoes.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3067776

>>3065618
>couldn't do sprite scaling
>ran at a measly 3mhz, if that

Why was the Super Nintendo so comically terrible?

>> No.3067817

>>3067776

The only thing comically terrible is your console warring after 2 decades and a half.

WHAT MEGADRIVEN'T

>> No.3068561

>>3067817
>wahhh he made fun of my favourite system

You have shit taste, deal with it.

>> No.3068690

>>3067817
>implying it wasn't

>> No.3068692

>>3067776
>couldn't do sprite scaling
Neither did Genesis, faster CPU and that's it.

>> No.3068919

Is Street Racer on Genesis using some kind of Mode-7?

>> No.3068935

>>3066627
how is this even remotely relevant?

>> No.3068948

Super Mario World's Bowser was Mode 7.
Weird they didn't utilise it further though. If it were up to me I'd have him spin around even more rather than just the linear 180° turn.
Same thing with Iggy/Larry/Morton/Roy/Ludwig. All utilised mode7 but just for a tiny tiny bit.

>> No.3068971

>>3067776
Even though the SNES was superior in every other technical specification compared to genesis, but at least it has blast processing right?

>> No.3068980

>>3068971
>Most important component is twice as fast
>i-i doesn't m-matter...

Also Genesis RAM runs faster.

>> No.3069123

>>3068561

My favorite system? None, I have favorite games though, and they're all around the place, from Sega, to Nintendo, to Sony, to PC.

>>3068690

It wasn't what?

>> No.3069145

>>3068971
SNES horizontal resolution was locked down to 256px. It can still reach 512px but nobody used it as part of any gameplay since it not only was impractical but also disabled any smooth scrolling.

>> No.3069190

>>3069145
mode 6

>> No.3069198

>>3068971
>SNES was superior in every other technical specification
Slower CPU
Lower resolution graphics (as used in actual games)
Muffled sound because of insufficent sample memory
The only spec where SNES is unambiguously better is 128kB vs 72kB main ram.

>> No.3069204

>>3065736
And the Sony Playstation shits on the Sega Saturn in terms of 3D graphics.

>> No.3069210

Do you guys even play games? Or all you do is compared hardware all day?

newsflash: all of the hardware you're discussing is outdated and poor in 2016

>> No.3069234

>>3069198
>The only spec where SNES is unambiguously better is 128kB vs 72kB main ram.

Not even that. SNES's PPU requires sprites to be stored in a format that is less compressible than the format used on Genesis. Not only that, but SNES uses sprites with higher color depth: they take up more room in RAM. In practice, RAM usage is very similar between consoles.

>> No.3069314

Mode 7 and FX are literally the only things that have aged badly on SNES. I like how Genesis fags boast how much better their processor is at around 7.8mhz when the games like Super Mario RPG could run at 10mhz.

>> No.3069325

>>3069234
Sprites aren't usually stored in main ram. But SNES and Genesis have the same VRAM (64kB), so SNES loses again.

>> No.3069330

Damn, if it wasn't because I grew up with both SNES and Genesis and I enjoyed both a lot (and still do), reading you guys I'd assume the SNES really sucks a lot.

>> No.3069345

>>3067536
Okay, show me an example of Mode 7 on the Atari 2600.

You did say 'any console', after all.

>> No.3069367

>>3069145
There's that one racing game that's completely in 512 448 hires mode
It's shit

>> No.3069521

>>3069330
You have to also realize that most Genesis vs SNES arguments basically boiled down to James Rolf levels of faggotry where people would basically make a checklist of the specs of the console and go "well that fucking settles it, SNES is way better and Genesis is shit!"

Both consoles have their pros and cons but if you actually look at what the Genesis could actually do better than the SNES you could make the argument that you could construct better games for it. Things like scrolling speed, number of sprites on screen, smoothness, sound, etc often get overlooked when you have idiots going "BUT MY COLORS!"

>> No.3069541

>>3069521

I don't know, I mean, yeah maybe on paper Genesis has these things you guys like to talk about so much like CPU speed, resolution, etc.

But when it comes to games, I simply don't think it's that big of a deal. A lot of the games that have slowdowns are either lazy ports of arcade games, or games that weren't polished enough, and also I recall Genesis games with slowdowns so it isn't like the Genesis is an almighty speed machine either.

I agree about idiots going "BUT MY COLORS!", but then you also have the idiots going "BUT MY SPEED!".

None of these people are game developers, they just check out specs and compare numbers and then go on ranting some techno babble to reinforce their own console war agenda (and this is for both Sega and Nintendo fans, although lately I seem to see a lot of Sega fans do it more often, I've also seen SNESfags argue that the SNES is superior a lot, which might be why now there's a backlash against that behavior and Genesis fans attack back)

but yeah, having grew up with both, I can say that both consoles have amazing games, and that more than the consoles themselves, what matters the most are the developers and how they worked around the consoles' limitations.
For example, I don't think games like Gundam Endless Duel or Cybernator would be significantly better on Genesis, and I don't think games like Phantasy Star IV or Beyond Oasis would be significantly better (or more colorful) on SNES.

>> No.3069561

>>3069541
>but then you also have the idiots going "BUT MY SPEED!".

I really wanted to read the entirety of your post, but now I simply can't, unless I got the wrong impression.

>> No.3069568

>>3069561

As I said on the rest of the post that you didn't read, games like Gundam Endless Duel or Cybernator have the right speed and no slowdowns that I could notice, and I don't think the Genesis' faster CPU would have changed that or made them better games.
Likewise, games like Phantasy Star IV or Beyond Oasis look fantastic on the Genesis and I don't think the SNES's broader colot palette would have changed that.

basically, game developers and how they dealt with the limitations are more important than raw specs.

>> No.3069573

>>3069568
That sounds reasonable.

>> No.3069576

>>3069568
>basically, game developers and how they dealt with the limitations are more important than raw specs.
You can say that statement in present tense, it's as relevant as it ever was

>> No.3069640

>>3069314
> Mode 7 and FX are literally the only things that have aged badly on SNES
I dunno, I always considered Mode 7 aged even better than old 3D games.

>> No.3069665

>>3066906
>That's only because the Saturn version of Metal Slug is extremely sensitive to the type of expansion RAM used. Anything but the official bundled RAM causes slowdown.

Again this false fucking rumour.

I played the game with the official 1mb cart, and it had exactly as much slowdown as the action replay.

>> No.3069801

>>3069367
What's it called? I'm genuinely curious. The SNES hires mode hardly got used at all.

>> No.3069816

>>3066986
>Saturn's RAM wasn't "goofy",

It had
- 1M SDRAM on a 32bit bus,
- 1M DRAM on a 16bit bus,
- 512k SDRAM for textures and sprite draw command lists, and it was single buffered, so you either transfer stuff to VRAM or draw them to framebuffer, you can't do both
- 2x256k SDRAM for framebuffer, forced double buffered so the background gpu can read them
- 2x256k SDRAM for a super powerful retro tilemap generator, but you had to manually configure the memory read timings so everything works nice
- 4k palette ram on-board the tilemap gpu, and since all palettes are applied by this gpu, you cannot use paletted sprites with gouraud shading or transparency (only gouraud works, and only by an excessive roundabout way which forces you to align 32 palette steps for every pixel).
- 512k DRAM sound memory

... and then you had the external memory, 1mb or 4mb, in god knows what kind of bus, but both of them use two banks of DRAM so they are probably as fast as the upper 1mb bank of the main memory at best (probably slower).

I shudder to think at what you'd consider goofy RAM if this isn't it.

>> No.3069819

I love the SNES, and it had some very pretty games for its time with its high color palette, inbuilt graphical effects, and advanced sound chip. BUT, the Genesis had it beat in terms of raw CPU power and display resolution. In fact, the Genesis was powerful enough that it could actually do more advanced graphical effects than the SNES purely in software. The Genesis was based on an older, trickier to use, but ultimately more flexible design paradigm than the SNES. It also had an actual sound synthesizer on board, which could produce cleaner output than the SNES at the cost of being much harder to program.

>> No.3069828

>>3069541
Your definitely right. I guess I should have clarified that for over 20 plus years that's what SNES vs Genesis arguments boiled down to. Now that forums like /VR/ exist you have a lot of people that have been putting up with the SNES superiority complex and when they see other Genesis bros bringing up solid points I guess that makes them more likely to chime in, because in the past that conversation wasn't really allowed to exist. It's kinda refreshing to see people talking in depth about the Genesis because for the longest time gaming "history" has always made the SNES to be this machine that crushed the Genesis. It was the console that beat out the Sega "bullies," etc.

>> No.3069834
File: 23 KB, 191x196, 1454392319619.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3069834

ITT
People who pretend they are retro devs

>> No.3069859

>>3067379
>>3066608

>implying it was age

I played space harrier for the first time on shenmue around that time and was blown away.

Galaxy force 2 I played on 3ds 2 years ago and that blew me away.

There's a reason mode 7 was never used in the arcades when they could have used whatever they wanted.

It comes off as a poor man's attempt at a sprite scaler.

>> No.3069861

>>3069859

I dunno, I played F-Zero for the first time a couple years ago and was blown away.

>> No.3069862

>>3069801
RPM Racing

>> No.3069864

We can all agree that Stunt Race FX is better than Virtua Racing, right?

>> No.3069868

>>3069861

Go play Rad Mobile or GP Rider.

>> No.3069872

>>3069864

Depends, Stunt Race using the bike?

nah I'll still take V.R., amazing port on the Genesis thanks to the SVP, though honestly I should give SR FX another shot, haven't played it since I was a kid, but I remember the low frame rate and difficult controls. The bike was fun though.

>> No.3069876

>>3069868

I have, but they are nothing like F-Zero.

I thought we were discussing SNES and Genesis though.

>> No.3069919

>>3066187
Doom had sprites and polygons.

>> No.3069939

>>3069919
SNES DOOM? Get fucked.

>> No.3069959

>>3069939
Fuck you too.

>> No.3069963

>>3066187
>>3066068
Didn't Starfox use mode 7 for the backgrounds? They were rotating around.

Or did they just use line+column scroll to mimic that?

>> No.3069987
File: 6 KB, 256x224, Prof_Hangar.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3069987

>>3069963
They didn't use the affine transformation available in mode 7, instead they mostly used background tile offset change as available in in modes 2, 4, 6. I'm going to guess they went with mode 2. Sometimes they pulled off additional effects like the standard palette swap+HDMA combo, as with the prof here.

>> No.3069996

>>3066974
The Neogeos only advantage over the Saturn was that it used a ridiculous amount of mask roms to store the games on. It then used this advantage to stream music and FMVs later on, and to give fighting games as many animation frames as the roms had bandwidth.

The Saturn could never address that much memory, and that was its only weakness compared to the Neogeo. Even with RAM carts it couldn't reach that much. But, it didn't need to - it could do so much more.

The arcade STV (based on the Saturn board) may have been able to address that much memory, I'm not sure. The biggest STV game was 49 megabytes, which is already more than the Neogeos 330megabit max capacity. Neogeo could use bank switching to reach higher numbers, the STV might be able to reach higher as well.

>> No.3070002

Mode 7 was widely used from the start.

>Mode 7 games include the titles F-Zero, Terranigma, Pilotwings, Yoshi's Safari, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV: Turtles in Time, Super Castlevania IV, Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermore, Final Fantasy IV, Final Fantasy V, Final Fantasy VI, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, Dino City, Super Mario Kart, Super Mario World, Super Star Wars, Chrono Trigger, ActRaiser, Exhaust Heat, Skyblazer, 7th Saga, Mega Man 7, Kirby Super Star, Axelay, and The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.

That list is missing a lot like Doom, Mechwarrior, Wolfenstein etc.

>> No.3070565

>>3069939
still better than 32x Doom.

>> No.3070652

>>3070002
The list does not claim to be exhaustive.
Doom and Wolfenstein have nothing to do with Mode 7

>> No.3070656

>>3069919
Doom had neither. Or better said, the walls are not rasterized polygons (it's using raycasting instead) and the enemies are not hardware sprites (they're completely done in software)

>> No.3070705

>>3070565
32x doom was great tho, and Carmack himself actually worked on it.

>> No.3070991

>>3070002
The only games from that list that really used mode 7 are F-Zero, Terranigma, Pilot Wings and Yoshi's Safari. The rest of the games used effects that were in general possible with the SNES and other contemporary platforms of the time.

By the way, Doom used a version of the Super FX chip for the SNES port.

>> No.3071000

>>3070991
No, there was a 3D driving hame that was super advanced... Stunt FX I think

>> No.3071008

>>3070991
What about the overhead map in Secret of Mana? And Exhaust Heat's engine?

>> No.3071023

>>3070565
The 32X version was rushed and had a lot of missing levels, but it looks, runs, and plays better than the SNES version.

SNES Doom is the worst official port of the game. It's more of a proof of concept than anything else. Can you run Doom on SNES? Yeah, but that doesn't mean you should play it.

>> No.3071026

>>3071000
What does that have to do with my post?

>>3071008
Oh right, I forgot that Secret of Mana had a mode-7 world map when you got shot with those cannons. Still, most games on that list don't use the seventh mode specifically.

>> No.3071480

>>3068692
Yeah, but at least the Genesis has more than a gimmick which looks terrible 80% of the time.

>> No.3071496

>>3071023
>SNES Doom is the worst official port of the game. It's more of a proof of concept than anything else. Can you run Doom on SNES? Yeah, but that doesn't mean you should play it.

Doom was, at the time, considered the most popular and technically advanced PC game. It would've sold on name alone even if it was a 2d sidescroller. But the fact that they could cram in a 3d version into a SNES cart was simply amazing.
And it's not like people could play it in the highest detail at the time on a PC either. There's a reason it had options to reduce graphics and lower the screen size. Running it on the SNES, even so simplified, was mind blowing.

Of course you can see how crap it was today, when everyone can post a youtube video of it. But you didn't have that in 1994.

>> No.3071514 [DELETED] 

>>3065940
Why do mods keep removing my response to this in which I call the poster a dick sucking faggot?

>> No.3071558

>>3067536
no you get over it. Even if it's nothing special in from a technical pov the intense usage of it was fucking brilliant.

>> No.3071607

>>3071558
>brilliant
It was gimmicky at best, and only resulted in the game having more slowdown when it occurred.

>> No.3071609

>>3065685
iirc the genesis on it's own can perform mode 7 style rotation, as demonstrated by Watermelon Team.

>> No.3071616

>>3071607

Every game that isn't Pong is gimmicky.

>> No.3071649

>>3071607
no it was kind of a "poor mans 3D" but it frickin worked!!

>> No.3071725

>>3071607
See this is the point where you lose every last shred of credibility. Sometimes it can be hard to know whether someone has a clue or just talking shit, obviously with you it's the latter.

Mode 7 was the opposite of slowdown by allowing it all to be done in hardware. That's why the SNES could perform compared to faster CPUs, because while noone could deny the raw speed of consoles like the megadrive, neogeo, etc. the SNES had tricks like Mode 7 to allow it to keep up and in some instances go beyond those consoles.

Calling mode 7 a "gimmick", I've heard everything now. Look at yourself, progressively talking shit on /vr/ trying to elicit a reaction like a fool.

>> No.3071749 [DELETED] 

>>3071725
Is that why there's so much slowdown in the spinning tube room in Super Castlevania Bros. then? Don't make me laugh, mode 7 taxed the SuFami heavily as it could barely zoom a texture without the system imploding.

>> No.3071937

>>3071749
>Super Castlevania Bros.

Oh look, it's Australia-kun shitposting again.

>> No.3072069

>>3071609
Well you could code it yourself, I suppose but the hardware won't help you in any way.

>> No.3072081 [DELETED] 

Ugly pixelated shit. Always hated it.

>> No.3072082

>>3071749
Is slowdown such a big deal anyway? I always considered a bit here and there as just one of those things.

>> No.3072085

>>3072081
>pixelated
Well yeah. Because the images were made up of pixels. I suppose you don't like textured polygons either?

>> No.3072091

>>3072082

As long as it isn't constant throughout the whole game, of course it's not a big deal. F-Zero uses mode 7 and doesn't have slowdowns at all.

But it's Australia-kun you're dealing with, what did you expect from one of /vr/'s most prominent and insistent resident shitposters?

>> No.3072105

>>3072091
Yeah Super R-Type was over the line in that department. It didn't even use mode 7 as far as I can remember (or maybe very sparingly).

But that game is known for being a badly coded, rushed launch title I think.

But most games that have any slowdown are within my tolerance range. Sometimes it's a welcome break from the frenetic pace.

>> No.3072109
File: 30 KB, 624x351, _87430366_cosbyhi030732563.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3072109

>>3072085
tune down that autism bro

>> No.3072123

>>3072109
I just don't get the complaint. Yes, when you get close, you can see the pixels. So fucking what? Did it ruin your fragile suspension of disbelief or something?

You could say the exact same thing about Quake's textures. But that would make you an autistic dickhead.

>> No.3072160

>>3069325
Sprites on the SNES can use a smaller color palette to conserve storage space. This trick was widely used in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, a game that really pushed the storage limitations of its 8 megabit rom. I'm not sure how many other games employed this trick however.

>> No.3072175

>>3070705
Carmack also did SNES doom after that Cheeseburger guy didn't get anything done.

>> No.3072181

>>3072160
Conserve ROM, yes, conserve RAM, no, as all objects on the SNES are 4-bit.

>> No.3072263

>>3072175
You mean Wolf3D.

Doom on SNES was acutally reprogrammed from scratch by some dude, an impressive effort.

>> No.3072361

>>3072082
Yes. There is no excuse for 2D games to have slowdown EVER.

>> No.3072373

What SNES game had the most gratuitous mode 7?

>> No.3072380

>>3072373

F-Zero and Super Mario Kart?

>> No.3072389

>>3072380
Those games really required mode 7 for the appeal. They're built around the idea of mode 7, and racing games are generally a lot better in that perspective.

I'm talking about ridiculous over the top mode 7 where it wasn't needed. Like, FF6 didn't NEED mode 7 for its overworld, but it used it anyway. Chrono Trigger didn't NEED a mode 7 racing minigame, and use of it in cutscenes throughout, but it did anyway.

Like, what game uses it most intrusively and needlessly?

>> No.3072534

>>3072181
What format did the Genesis use?

>> No.3072781

>>3072389
I dunno, Claymates? The whole game was hideous and Mode 7 didn't help at all.

The times you described seemed okay. Nothing wrong with using a sub-feature of your console for a minigame or after-thought.

Jerry Boy/Smart Ball has a level set on the moon that rotates via Mode 7 that is just weird and clunky.

>> No.3072793

>>3069204

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

>> No.3072796

>>3072175
rand linden did snes doom.

and 3DO doom was only given 2 months for development

>> No.3072926

>>3069204
No it doesn't. Their capabilities are very similar, and they're both actually pretty shit at 3D. The PlayStation is just easier to develop for.

>> No.3072975

>>3072781

fuck you, that bonus stage with mode7 on Claymates where you bounce on a checkered board was fun as fuck

>> No.3073006

>>3066198
blast processing is a thing
just not THE MAJOR THING that Sega marketing made it out to be
according to an interview with a Sega engineer in https://readonlymemory.vg/shop/book/sega-mega-drive-genesis-collected-works/

>> No.3073009

>>3069204
Nobody cares. 3D games in the '90s were some janky ass shit.

>> No.3073072

>>3072926
Their capabilities are not similar at all. Saturn is handicapped by the mediocre VDP1 chip. No amount of optimization can make it a good chip.

>> No.3073078

>>3069204
And the N64 shits on the PS1, we could do this all day.

>>3073072
The PS1 is hardly better.

>> No.3073154

>>3073078
The n64 suffered greatly from its inbuilt filtering, poor dev tools, and tiny texture cache. The PS1 may have had less raw grunt, but it often had much better looking games, and I don't mean all those games that cheated with prerendered backdrops either.

I'd like to see someone do a comparison between the most graphically intensive n64 games, and the most graphically intensive PS1 games. Settle the debate once and for all.

>> No.3073170

>>3073154
Conker utterly destroys any PS1 game on a technical level.

First you have the N64 usual garnishings as a base level: perspective correct texture mapping, sub pixel accuracy, z-buffer, texture filtering and anti-aliasing.

Then add to that significantly more lights, shadows and particles than any PS1 game, and then top it off with more texture diversity (not necessarily in the whole game, but per active
frame) than any PS1 game.

>> No.3073176

>>3073170
It was at an expense though, Conker had a really bad framerate due to all those fancy effects and visuals.

>> No.3073181

>>3069345
Not that guy, but Solaris comes close.

>> No.3073186

>>3073176
Conker's framerate isn't as bad as some 5th gen games but yes it's not like a solid 30 or anything

>> No.3073476

>>3073154
Nothing on PS1 looks as good as Conker, Perfect Dark, Rogue Squadron, Banjo Tooie, Majora's Mask, Jet Force Gemini, and so on. When did this whole PS1 has better looking games than N64 start? PS1's non prerendered 3D games look like dog shit.

>> No.3073496

>>3073476
Metal Gear fucking Solid, Silent Hill, any Crash game. While they may technically be incomparable to the N64's top dogs, they look amazing.

>> No.3073516

>>3066906
Even the Neo-Geo version of that game had some noticeable slowdown, especially in the last level. The Slug games from X onward used an improved engine to make them a bit smoother.

As for the Saturn, it's more powerful than the Neo-Geo but that system was simply better at the type of 2D games that were made on it. I don't think even the 4MB RAM cart would have gotten rid of the excessive loading on the KoF games, although it certainly did wonders for the amazing Capcom fighter ports(Vampire Savior is almost perfect, love that port more than the CPS2 original for having the cut characters as well)

>>3066935
IIRC the "Max 330 Mega" they advertised was simply the maximum amount of megs they could fit on a cartridge in 1990. Later on they started using bankswitching to exceed that limit, which is why the splash screen on those games shows "Giga Power". King of Fighters 2003 is the largest official game ever released for the Neo-Geo at 716 megs, but there is AFAIK no hard limit.

>> No.3073538 [DELETED] 

>>3065940
you're still a dick sucking faggot

>> No.3073690

>>3066198
blast processing was just the cool way to explain to children that he genesis has a faster 16-bit processor and DMA

nothing wrong with that

>> No.3073732

>>3073690
>16-bit processor

Shock: it's actually 32-bit.

>> No.3073751

>>3073078
>The PS1 is hardly better.

The PS1 shits all over the Saturn as far as polygons are concerned. The gpu is something like 4x as fast, has better colour depth, better indexed colour mode, way better shading, and way better transparency options - plus it is less wasteful. Oh and there is a dedicated transform chip too (Saturn has to do all transforms in software, and delegating them to the slave SH2 or the DSP is very difficult and not necessarily beneficial).

Graphics wise the only thing the Saturn has over the PS1 is the dedicated background chip, but that one has limited use in 3d (you can draw a pretty infinite skybox + ring arena with it, but that's it).

>> No.3073761

>people criticizing a mode that allows a 3.6mhz processor do duke-style 3d.

Still not hearing any good example of how mode 7 slows down anything, mode 7 gives a lot more capability in hardware without having to use shitloads of cpu speed and memory. If a developer is going overly ambitious that's their own fault.

I've a feeling the only people complaining about mode 7 are 5th-gen born faggots who don't like Nintendo and heard a lot about this mode 7 and figured that well you know they don't like this whole idea that Nintendo came up with a great graphical innovation and it wasn't good at all it was all a gimmick. They might also be farcically mixing it up with how mode 7 heavily slows down emulation.

>> No.3073768

>>3073516
>Even the Neo-Geo version of that game had some noticeable slowdown, especially in the last level. The Slug games from X onward used an improved engine to make them a bit smoother.

Yeah, it has, but the Saturn version is WAY worse. The first copter comes in on the first stage and the game speed gets halved. The last level plays at half speed from beginning to end.

Metal Slug 2 on the Neogeo played smoother.

As for memory, Capcom got away with superb ports of Vampire Savior because they preloaded a ton of stuff on the RAM cart. Like the title screen, character select, all the characters portraits, pre-fight portraits, etc. were loaded at all times on the cart. The game had to load fairly little stuff when a match started, and it could drop back to the main menus without loading anything. It also used chip tunes for many of those screens, so it could play their music while loading stuff in the background.

Do note that it had unskippable pre-fight scenes because it loaded the fight related stuff there.

Simply put it was incredibly optimized.

They could've done the same for the KOF games, and reduce the loading times significantly. But, I'm not familiar with the KOF games that much, so this might now have been possible (don't they need to load entirely different sprites and backgrounds per every match? That could add up fast since you can't preload all of that onto the ram cart, unless you could somehow fit, say, all backgrounds on it at once).

>> No.3073783

>>3073761
>that allows a 3.6mhz processor do duke-style 3d.

....no?

>> No.3073786

>>3073732
Really?

I thought only SOME 68000's had 32-bit, but that's actually pretty cool if it's true.

>> No.3073891

>>3073496
>this is what Sonyggers unironically believe

>> No.3073897

>>3073761
>m-muh mode 7!
your mode 7 was shit, saturn could do 5x as many mode sevens thanks to the VDP2 and looked much better as a result for 2D games

>> No.3073902

>>3073786
It depends on how you classify cpus. The 68k had 16-bit operands, 16-bit ALU, and 32-bit registers - so it can move 32bits of data in some operations, but not necessarily do 32bit math on them.

I'd say it is more like an extremely powerful 16-bit cpu.

>> No.3073913

>>3073897
>SFC: 1990
>Saturn: 1994

Well, no shit.

>> No.3073939

>>3073913
>it's ok to compare PC Engine games with SNES despite a 3-year gap but it's not ok to compare SNES games with Saturn because it hurts my Nintendo pride

Fuck off with your shit logic, cunt.

>> No.3073945

>>3072389
Super Probotector? I quite like the top-view levels but they're blatantly there to show off.

>> No.3073947

>>3073732
No you bloody idiot the 68030 was the first Motorolla 32-bit CPU which the Megadrive did not use, it had a stock 68000 16-bit processor.

>> No.3073949

>>3072361
Well the person I responded to in the first place was clearly so ashamed of their post on the matter, they deleted it.
>>3071749

>> No.3073976
File: 669 KB, 768x256, neogeomasterrace.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3073976

Fuck your SNES and Saturn. Background layers are for fags.

>> No.3073984

>>3073976
says it and shows a background layer

>> No.3073991

>>3073984
those are all sprites, nigga

>> No.3073994
File: 20 KB, 480x360, lookathimandlaugh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3073994

>>3073984
>Neogeo
>capable of doing bg layers

>> No.3074008

>>3073991
that'd be awfully inefficient.
However: In the Neo*Geo, sprites represent a step between conventional sprites and tilemaps. Each sprite can be up to 32 tiles tall, and has a corresponding name table of 32 32-bit entries which store per-tile attributes like the tile number, palette, flip flags, and automatic animation flags.

>>3073994
Static tilemap plane: 1 (512×256 px fix layer)
Scrolling tilemap planes: 1-3 (optional, using sprites), with line & column scroll effects

>> No.3074010

>>3073939
So you compare Dreamcast with PSX and N64 or NES with Atari VCS and Intellivision?

>> No.3074061

>>3073761
Mode 7 isn't anywhere close to "duke-style" 3D. Still neat tech for the time, but it's actually quite limited in what it can do. It can literally scale and rotate only ONE background layer.

Then again, they managed to do some pretty impressive stuff with it in Contra 3, and I could almost swear they managed to bypass the one layer limit with it somehow. Maybe they raced the beam and did some scanline trickery, I dunno. Could someone provide input on this? I mean, I have no idea how two player splitscreen was possible on the overhead levels with this limitation in mind, or how they had a rapidly spinning boss monster that you could still circle strafe around.

>> No.3074074

>>3074061
>Maybe they raced the beam and did some scanline trickery
The whole "plane on the ground" visual of Mode 7 is, as you call it "racing the beam", because it relies on changing the zoom level of the background plane per scanline. Not much trickery, as the SNES has a specific DMA for that, which automatically loads data per scanline after configured accordingly.

Unfortunately I have not seen the effects you described, so I can't look into that.

>> No.3074081

>>3074010
I'm guilty of doing this, I admit. The Dreamcast shared a fair number of multiplats with the PS1 and N64, and a surprising number of Atari plug n play systems were made using NOACs. Amazingly, the NTSC variants of the VCS actually had a much more vibrant color palette than the NES or really most other systems made before the 16-bit era, and this is especially evident when you compare those aforementioned NOAC-based plug n play consoles to actual VCS games.

>> No.3074094

>>3074008
Not sure where you're getting your data- Neogeo used sprite strips instead of tilemap layers like SNES' mode 7 or Saturn's VDP2.

>> No.3074113

>>3073732
Actually it is a 16/32 hybrid.

>> No.3074114

>>3074094
http://furrtek.free.fr/noclass/neogeo/mvstech.txt

>> No.3074139

>>3074074
>The whole "plane on the ground" visual of Mode 7 is, as you call it "racing the beam",

Nah, "racing the beam" would mean changing registers mid-scanline, which the VCS needed because it supported something like 2 sprites in hardware total, and if you wanted more, you had to change the sprite register mid-scanline.

The "mode 7" grounds on the SNES just changed the background position/scale/rotation values at every horizontal interrupt. You weren't racing the beam, you had the beam telling you whenever it finished a lap that you should update the lap counter.

>> No.3074142

>>3074094
note how sprite strips were actually mentioned:
>Each sprite can be up to 32 tiles tall

However note also
>sprites represent a step between conventional sprites and tilemaps
The reason for that sentence is that sprites, at least on other tilemap + sprites systems are usually monolithic. A single consecutive piece of memory defines the whole sprite. On the Neo*Geo it seems like a "sprite" is technically a moveable 1x32 tiles tilemap, complete with its own tile set followed by a tilemap indexing into the set and applying flips as necessary. That leads to an obvious application, where you place strips 8px apart, making them form a grid, that acts pretty much like a full tile map. Only that instead of specifying it as one tile map, it's specified as a couple dozen tile strips.

Regardless of all this, the static tilemap plane is mentioned in the document as well. It does not seem too flexible though, so it's probably rarely used, or at least covered in large amounts of tile strips.

>> No.3074145

>>3074139
thanks for the clarification

>> No.3074153

>>3074114
>Unlike most other video game consoles of its time, the Neo Geo did not use tilemap background layers. Instead, it relied exclusively on drawing sprites to create the background. Sprites are vertical strips which are 16 pixels wide, and can be 16 to 512 pixels tall. By laying multiple sprites side by side, the system can simulate a background layer. The system can draw up to 384 sprites on the screen at a time, and up to 96 per scanline.

>> No.3074162
File: 38 KB, 600x424, KOF-95-Saturn-ROM-cartridge-1041428.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3074162

>>3073768
I don't think a great port of KoF on a 5th gen system would have been possible, the 3v3 format just didn't work well with the CD speed and RAM limitations. They certainly did try though, KoF '95 on Saturn actually works pretty well since it used a dedicated ROM cartridge with animation frames on it along with the CD. It's also worth having '96 on disc anyway for the absolutely phenomenal arranged soundtrack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL91scCpc6M

>> No.3074164

>>3074153
>The fix layer is a fixed, non-scrollable tilemap that is 64x32 in size that occupies VRAM offsets $7000-$74FF. It uses 8x8 tiles, 4bpp, that can use one of 16 palettes and reference up to 4096 tiles stored in fix ROM.
It's in the section "Fix Layer" and contains further descriptions on the data structures involved

>> No.3074175

>>3074153
>>3074164
and further down in the sprites section:

Range Size Description

VRAM
0000-7FFF : 512 Sprite name tables
7000-77FF : 64x32 Fix layer name table
7800-7FFF : n/a Unused

Sprite RAM
8000-81FF : 512 Zoom control
8200-83FF : 512 Y position, chain bit, height
8400-85FF : 512 X position
8600-865F : 96 Active sprite list for line buffer #0
8660-867F : n/a Unused
8680-86DF : 96 Active sprite list for line buffer #1
86E0-87FF : n/a Unused

>7000-77FF : 64x32 Fix layer name table

Again, I do not claim it's been the primary background mechanism, I learnt that much. It seems far too limited on the Neo*Geo for anything beyond basic filler. The tile strip mechanism is clearly the main way to fill the screen. Doesn't change that the Neo*Geo does have a static tile map deep in its guts.

>> No.3074187

>>3074175
though I'll still argue, tiling the background with tile strips (in particular when they touch on the edges) is effectively a tiled background map, just with a more convoluted data structure

>> No.3074190

>>3074164
>>3074175
So, it's still accurate to say that NG game backgrounds are sprites while a SNES mode 7 background is just a layer?

>> No.3074204
File: 355 KB, 630x475, contra-hard-corps.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3074204

>your face when Genesis does mode 7 effects better than SNES

>> No.3074221

>>3074204
You mean HDMA+update scroll values? Because both system had that.

>> No.3074292

>>3074204
Roads usually aren't handled by Mode 7.

>> No.3074302

>>3074204
that's a raster effect but yeah the genny could angle a background just not rotate upside down or else there would be distortion

>> No.3074973

>>3074190
>just
fuck off

From what I can tell, that posted NeoGeo background is a grid of tiles, and about as flexible as a grid of tiles. Whether they're declared in rows or in columns, seems kind of secondary to me. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

>> No.3074981

>>3074292
Tell that F-Zero.

You're right though, The screenshot is showing a line scroller, no scaling or rotation involved

>> No.3074985

>>3073976
How do you rotate that image at an arbitrary angle? If it's made of tile strips, I imagine the rotation to be quite a mess

>> No.3074991

>>3065618

god damn, i was a master of this

>> No.3075368
File: 56 KB, 720x550, axelay.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3075368

Mode 7 was pretty ugly tbqh sempais.

>> No.3075569

>>3074010
>So you compare Dreamcast with PSX and N64 or NES with Atari VCS and Intellivision?

N64's polygon transform and lighting isn't actually that far from Dreamcast. 500 MIPS vs 1400 MIPS. That's why Conker has lighting effects that aren't really significantly worse than what you'd see on Dreamcast.

Dreamcast totally shits on the N64 when it comes to fill rate though. 31.25 / 62.5 MPixel/s (depending if mipmaps are enabled or not) vs the equivalent of about 400 MPixel/s. That accounts for the big resolution difference.

Also texturing is obviously much better. But Dreamcast's narrow gap from the N64's release (2.5 years) does betray some technical weaknesses.

>> No.3075713

>>3075368

That isn't Mode 7.

And your mother is ugly, Axelay is awesome.

>> No.3076036

>>3075713
It's shit, just like any other shmup on SNES that isn't BlaZeon.

>> No.3076245

>>3076036

Hot opinion you got there bud.

>> No.3079025

>>3076036
There are no shmups better than on PC Engine.

>> No.3079041

>>3079025
Pretty much, although Megadrive also had some good ones. Even NES had more good shmups than Super Nintendo.

>> No.3079151

>>3079041
>>3079025

>There are people who genuinely think Axelay isn't good just because of hipster retro cred memes about SNES not being as "arcade-y" as the Megadrive or the PCE.

It's fine, Megadrive and PCE have a lot of good shmups, nobody will deny that so don't worry.

Axelay is still a great game, regardless of what console was it on.
And no, the background effects aren't mode 7.

>> No.3079175

>>3065618
I think the Atari Lynx had a similar mode

>> No.3079268

>>3079151
Axelay is shit, the hori stages are nothing interesting and the "3D" levels are garbage once you get bored of the graphical effect.

You could at least post a good SNES shmup like R-Type III to support your argument.

>> No.3079361

The SNES never had a spiritual sequel to Zanac or Gun Nac released for it. This saddens me.

>> No.3079362

>>3079268
R-Type III sucks. Its first stage never fucking ends.

Makes repeat playthroughs REALLY annoying.

>> No.3079363

>>3079361
>he doesn't know about Space Megaforce/Super Aleste

>> No.3079393

>>3079363
>implying Aleste is similar to Zanac
Nigga you dumb.

>> No.3079402

>>3079393
aleste was literally supposed to be zanac 2 but they couldn't call it that

in any case, super aleste is closer to gun-nac

>> No.3079403

>>3079393
nigga all compile shooters are the same

>> No.3079406

>>3079268
R-Type 3 is a fucking slog though, worst in series.

Axelay is good but could have been better as 100% hori

>> No.3079429
File: 56 KB, 621x465, 07-04-es2401.jpg_141358524.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3079429

>>3079268
>Axelay is shit

why are you guys so fucking hyperbolic, every game is either the best there ever is, or shit. Nothing in between.

>> No.3081169

>>3079175
It was the first console ever to have the hardware sprite distortion though.

>> No.3081194

All Axelay has going for it are nice graphics and sound effects. It's not actually that great of a game. The SNES was a better system for run n gun/action platformers than people care to admit, but it's not that great of a system for shmups.

>> No.3082595
File: 127 KB, 257x250, 1458317485055.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3082595

Genesis didn't have Parodius :^)

>> No.3082601

>>3082595

Or Dettana Twin Bee, or UN Squadron, but shhh, you will upset a lot of our resident anti-SNES people.

>> No.3083121

>>3082595
You mean slow shitty ports?

ok

>> No.3083223

>>3082601
SNES was shit for anything that wasn't gay ass JRPG's, fuck off.

>> No.3085526

>>3083223
hurr durr ma genosis was da best because it was black fuck you and your japaneese shit hurr durr

>> No.3085568
File: 80 KB, 280x336, sb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3085568

>>3085526
Nah mate, PC Engine was the best. Megadrive was just alright. However Super Nintendo was a fucking joke.

>> No.3085575

>>3085568
>16 bit graphics
>shooting game

Looks like it's being marketed at the kind of people who keep their Schwartz spices meticulously categorised and ordered.

>> No.3085597

>>3085575
>2016
>not having OCD
Fuck outta here, normalfag.

>> No.3085647

>>3085568

How does it feel being so alone? not just in video game taste but in general I mean.

Do you fool yourself by repeating to yourself that you have good taste and everyone else is a "pleb", or you actually break down and cry on your sleep every once in a while?

>> No.3085757

>>3085568
your life is sad.

>> No.3085760

>>3085757
>>3085647
>mad hominem
yawn

>> No.3085767

>>3085760
to speak objectively: you're wrong.

>> No.3085774

>>3085767
To use ad hominems: you are a plopper face.

>> No.3085776

>>3085774
you genesissy

>> No.3085781
File: 18 KB, 256x224, Gokujou-Parodius-J030.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3085781

>>3083223

Told ya it was gonna upset our resident anti-SNES guys.

I'm sorry, guy, didn't mean to offend you.

>> No.3085803

SNES was fucking garbage system holy shit lol

LMFAO fucking 3mhz cpu nintendo for real???
LMFAO fucking mode 7 that looks like complete ass
LMFAO fucking yoshi a game literally meant for babies

HOLY FUCK HOW CAN ANYONE LIKE THAT THING?! HAHAHAHA GOD DAMNN

>> No.3085812

>>3085803
I love how people slag off mode 7, seemingly unable to comprehend that it's surely better than, all other things being equal, NOT having mode 7.

No other console at the time had anything like it and it was extremely useful.

>> No.3085815

>>3072793
I hate how this is brought up all the fucking time. Yes, it looks awesome, but note that it runs at less than 10 fps on some parts and has 0 dynamic lightning (only pre-baked ones), and some scenes don't even have any logic, they just showcase the scenery. Hell at a few points you can even see the polygons glitching out due to a missed framebuffer clear.

It looks awesome, yeah, but not better than what the Playstation could do.

>> No.3085821

>>3085815
If you ask me, 90% of PS and Saturn games are compelling evidence that consoles should have stayed 2D for another generation.

Seriously, looking back, most games of this era are ugly as fuck and half-arsed - clearly relying on the then gimmick factor of 3D. Imagine the same power being put to use on high res 2D...

>> No.3085834

>>3072926
>The PlayStation is just easier to develop for.

It also had real support for lightning, transparencies, triangles, had over 4x the fillrate, and did not waste any fillrate by overwrites. And had a dedicated T&L chip and a dedicated video decoder. And devkits that included a performance analyser, while the Saturn ones could barely do basic debugging.

The Playstation wasn't just easier to develop for, it was also significantly more powerful. Saturns only advantage was a slight edge in raw number crunching, a 2d tilemap chip, and the internal memory/clock..

(regarding the lightning, yes, I'm aware that Powerslave and Quake had coloured lightning, but all they did was ramp up a palette gradient through a quirk in the hardware gouraud shading, that only worked on RGB framebuffers. This gave you something like 16 steps of lightning, and you had to manually bake in the lit colours of each pixel for it in advance. Playstation on the other hand could do both flat and gouraud shading in any colour mode entirely in hardware.)

>> No.3085842

>>3085834
>dedicated video decoder
Sony being a moviegames machine even from the very beginning, lol.

>> No.3085847

>>3085834
>performance analyser
Didn't they make that just for Gran Turismo? Or was that just marketing hype?

>> No.3085863

>>3074162
>I don't think a great port of KoF on a 5th gen system would have been possible, the 3v3 format just didn't work well with the CD speed and RAM limitations.

Saturn with 4mb cart could've definitely handled it, except it would've needed shit ton of load times. Hard to optimize that since you had to load a completely different fighter + new background on each fight.

Actually, I don't know how often (if at all) KOF changes the backgrounds between matches. If it doesn't, then they probably could've fit all 6 fighters in the 4mb ram cart, even if they had to use some on-the-fly compression (which could be optimized to start while winning animation of previous match is running).
If they changed the backgrounds but only, say, 3 times, then they could leave 4 characters in RAM, and load the extra chars when the background is not changing, thereby cutting down on load times (unless one fighter wins all matches in a row).

>> No.3085906

>>3074302
>the genny could angle a background just not rotate upside down or else there would be distortion

Actually it could:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8O9QKzrBk

it had column scroll AND row scroll, so it could also do quite a lot of flexible effects on the background, pretty close to mode 7.

>> No.3085947

>>3085906
Not in hardware though, surely? Otherwise you'd expect the special stage in Sonic 1 to have used it. It's just clever coding I'd have thought.

After all, if the hardware doesn't have any neat tricks to do these things, there's nothing stopping you writing the code yourself, is there? Within reason.

>> No.3085951

>>3085906
>all those effects
It's not complete, though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lqYDC5o1yvQ

>> No.3085989

>>3085947
>Not in hardware though, surely? Otherwise you'd expect the special stage in Sonic 1 to have used it. It's just clever coding I'd have thought.

It was done in Mega Turrican, which was coded by Factor 5, one of the few wizard level coders in the industry.

And if you want to get technical, mode 7 wasn't in hardware either - they took a rotating hardware layer, and applied raster effects to it. MD could do that, though it needed raster fx to do rotation.

Earnest Evans also did it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvtauwFULPM

>> No.3085998

>>3085989
>they took a rotating hardware layer, and applied raster effects to it
What do you mean? Was the rotation done by a chip or a code library?

I mean, you could probably get a SNES to raytrace if you worked at it. The chips wouldn't help you an iota, and the frame rate would probably be 4 per minute but still...

>> No.3086021

>>3085998
The silicon can do zoom and rotation, this is what is called Mode 7.

Then they change the zoom/rotation parameters at every raster (so line 1 has the picture at 100% zoom and 1° rotate, line 2 is drawn with 101% zoom and 2° rotate, line 3 is drawn with 102% zoom and 3° rotate, etc). This creates a perspective distortion that can simulate a 3d ground plane.

>> No.3086212

>>3085812
i'd rather have a fast processor than a built-in hardware effect that looks like shit 80% of the time

it's dancing baloney

>> No.3086216
File: 7 KB, 259x194, 1453352481628.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3086216

>>3086212
Then go back to playing your xbone, millennial.

>> No.3086241

>>3086216
It's funny because millennials are exactly the people who grew up playing 4th gen consoles.

>> No.3086264
File: 9 KB, 259x194, 1458786849750l.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3086264

>>3086241
That's cute. Arguably the defining line that demarcates between Gen X and Gen Y is the mass adoption of the Internet. I lived through and remember that transition whilst playing my SNES as a kid. Sorry kiddo, but I ain't no 90's/00's scrub.

>> No.3086281

>>3086264
Just curious, what year were you born?

>> No.3086324

>>3073176
>>3073186
Also you make it sound like framerate was something people gave a shit about back then.

The autism only took over in recent gens

>> No.3086335

>>3086281
He's posting Pokemon pictures, so he can't be any older than 21.

>> No.3086481

>>3085951
Man why are Batman games always so graphically impressive?

Also what's that "totally not Star Fox" game?

>> No.3086514

>>3086481
ResQ, a canceled game by Psygnosis. That was just a 1-minute bonus stage, the rest of the game is a 2D sidescroller.

>> No.3086708
File: 449 KB, 500x281, tumblr_leog7urUCx1qbj46wo1_r1_500.0.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3086708

>>3079429

>> No.3086837

>>3086021
Right, so mode 7 was in hardware. That's what I was saying.

>> No.3086902

>>3086837
>Right, so mode 7 was in hardware.

What was in hardware was a single rotating and zooming layer.

The 3d landscape was a software trick using Mode 7 + raster interrupts.

If you consider the 3d landscape as something done entirely in hardware, then the Megadrive can do background rotation and 3d polygons in hardware, and the C64 can do bump mapping in hardware.

>> No.3088563
File: 1.52 MB, 352x264, 10.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3088563

>>3065618
>Was Mode 7 good?
Someone never played Super Burrito Legend.
Look at OP. Look at him and laugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl8xbfYm9G4

>> No.3088597

>>3088563
>Super Burrito Legend
Looks like Mode 7 at first glance, but that tilt effect is impossible in real time on stock hardware.

Clearly not on the SNES, but got a lol.

>> No.3088639

>>3088563
the intro to that song is such a ripoff of space harrier

>> No.3088656

>>3088597
It's the FF6 ending but with a burrito replacing the airship sprite though.

>> No.3088672

>>3088656
Nope. A Mode 7 tilting horizon is no where to be found in that game, or any other for that matter. It's always completely horizontal.

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