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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 306 KB, 636x720, levdes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2882924 No.2882924 [Reply] [Original]

Let's play a game, /vr/. Post level design pics and others discuss it.

To start off, let's look at this section from S3K, AIZ2. Specifically, examine the middle right side. There's a spring, a swinging vine, a Rhinobot, and some curved ground. It all seems rather... pointless, does it not? There's no rings or other power ups to gain by entering that area, and the swing isn't needed for anything. Why does the ground curve up only to lead immediately into a ceiling? And why is it protected by an enemy when there's nothing here for it to guard? Could this be an example of truly "random" level design, or is it possible what we're seeing are the remnants of a much more grandiose vision for this section that was ultimately scrapped for the final release?

>> No.2882929

Imagine playing sonic 1 or 2 and you can see the entire map. zoomed out like OP's pic.
Letting you go fast as fuck without being suddenly surprised by a barrier or enemy

>> No.2882934

>>2882929
Yes. In HD. With more, bigger levels. Better powerups.

That's what Sonic should have become, instead of this 3D bullshit. Imo.

>> No.2882936

>>2882924
I don't know what the motivation was, but I did like coming across stuff like that in the old Sonic games. It made the levels feel more organic than the obviously contrived left-to-right obstacle courses you saw in other 2D platformers.

(Also the music for that level is now playing in my head)

>> No.2882946

>>2882929
The sensation of fast is entirely dependent on the camera. Mario moves faster than Sonic but it doesn't feel that way since his camera is so zoomed out.

>> No.2882947

>>2882936
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTWtNMd8mZs

>> No.2882959

>>2882946
True

>>2882934
would be nice

>> No.2882965

>>2882929
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so4X5fdxcNs

>> No.2882971

>>2882965
Awesome!

>> No.2882981

>>2882965
to be this good will take sega atlas

>> No.2882985

>>2882924
Since levels progress left to right, most people will come upward from the bottom and assume that's the correct way to proceed, only to get trapped by the rhinobot which is harder than usual to avoid because of the curve.

It's small trap for players on the lower path, to teach them that sometimes the way to proceed will requiring doubling back to get to higher ground, and to encourage them to try and stay on the high path and approach from on high in the beginning.

>> No.2883036

It is because you are naturally going to the right, you were from the water falls previously and you can assume so with the springs. Not only that if you somehow miss the rope you land on that platform. Since spindashing is often useful for killing enemies and gaining speed you knock down two birds with one stone if you spindash towards the wall if the enemy is right there while getting you to the other spring to bring you to the platform to the left. Since the enemy does give a brief stop you can be given the opportunity to spindash towards it.

>> No.2883119

>>2882985
>>2883036
Well, these are both valid points. It's true, it does accomplish those things. But I still can't help feeling like there should be something more to it than that. I've no evidence to support that, though.

The only thing I do notice is the area directly above has a similar curved ground, about the same size, and also contains an enemy. I suppose that's what makes it so strange to me -- the fact there's 2 rather similar little areas so near eachother, and yet one of them does nothing while the other leads to the boss.

Also if you took the left set of spikes above and flipped them upside down, and affixed them to the ceiling of the area in question that could have some interesting results with regards to players' interactions with the springs and vine -- both of which would be in roughly the right position, then, to direct players straight into them.

Another take on this idea would be to leave the spikes where they are, but instead swap the enemies. For the monkey and the fire shield powerup hidden atop his tree to fit, this would necessitate swapping the ceiling heights of the two areas as well. This would have 2 interesting effects, both of which appear to make the most sense. Above, the outcome would still be the same -- there would be an enemy guarding the exit to the level. Yet the Rhinobot is the more sensible choice for this task as he is effectively buffed by the presence of the spikes, compared to the monkey who poses little threat here with or without the spikes. Below, the vine (assuming it was raised in accordance with the heigh of the ceiling) could aid the player in attacking the monkey and/or getting the powerup. An alternate, more fun way better suited for more experienced players would be spin dashing up the wall via the curved ground, and then jumping. Either way, this would give some real utility and purpose to this area, wouldn't it? It also makes more sense in the sense of rewarding players for searching for secrets.

>> No.2883134

>>2883119
Oh and also a lower ceiling height for the top area would buff the right set of spikes by making it harder to clear them. Admittedly, this effect might be so strong that it could become impossible to get past them without getting hit. So, maybe the ceiling height would have to be raised a little bit more than the actual height of the ceiling on the lower area. So it might not be as simple as doing an exact swap, but I think the basic idea still stands.

>> No.2883140
File: 146 KB, 440x620, levdes2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2883140

Next let's discuss this section from the beginning of Hydrocity zone. I'm mainly interested in the 2 red springs at the bottom. Why are they there? What is their purpose? Why 2 of them? Could it have anything to do with other factors at play here, such as the spikes or the enemies?

I'll be waiting for you guys to go first before I unload another tl;dr again.

>> No.2883291

>>2883140

You see 2 springs facing each other a fair amount in Sonic.

Hydrocity is the first time in Sonic 3 when you have a good chance of drowning, so the springs let you hurry along faster in the water. But if you mistime it you can hit the spikes instead.

>> No.2883330

>>2883140
>>2883291
It's a trap for less confident players. If you hesitate and bounce the wrong way you can end up hitting an enemy the wrong way or land on the spikes, but that's also the only way to go to reach the surface and get more air.

an experienced player doesn't see it that way because the gaps are actually pretty generous here and the drowning timer is actually really long.

aren't there examples of springs located much closer together in sonic games?

>> No.2883394

>>2882946
>Mario moves faster than Sonic
Shove your Game Theory bullshit up your ass and fuck off back to Youtube.

>> No.2883418

>>2882924
Older sonic fans would continue to develop their autism, I'm not surprised.

>> No.2883501

>>2883140
Two springs to trap you. Can't skid quickly enough, forcing the player to jump, but if mid-tuned you'll land on rings or hit those spikey fish. It's a good way to make the first time player panic a bit.

>> No.2884087
File: 306 KB, 800x600, sonic3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2884087

>>2882924
>>2883140
please continue

>> No.2884194

>>2884087
What am I trying to look at here?

>> No.2884209

>>2883394
Holy shit talk about missing the point completely

>> No.2884807

>>2884194
>>2884087
Yeah there's kind of a lot going on there. Was there something in particular you wish to discuss?

>> No.2884974
File: 274 KB, 1136x350, levdes5-1a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2884974

>>2884087
>>2884807
I'll be happy to discuss that level with you. While we wait for him to clarify, let's take a closer look at the ever-popular Ice Cap zone.

This is the part right after the snowboarding scene ends, at the beginning of Act 1. What do you guys notice?

I hope you don't think those objects' placement is random, or meaningless -- do you?

>> No.2885000

>>2884974
this is the first thing you see in the level and acts as a tutorial area, it's meant to teach you about the swing platform, the collapsing snow thing, and the objects trapped in ice

>> No.2885074

>>2882936
Sonic 3K was way better at this than any other classic Sonic game. They felt like worlds designed around setpieces rather than just levels using whatever tiles were available.

>> No.2886119

>>2885000
Pretty much, yep.

Hit the spring and you instantly learn the key to the lifts.

I do find the checkpoint kinda strange. It's not often we find one so close to the beginning of the level. Maybe it was put there to spare Sonic players from having to re-watch the snowboarding scene if they die. Maybe it could also be thought of as an apology to the many players about suffer a cheap death from being crushed by the ice pillar, by pressing any button while rolling through it while it's collapsing.

There's a surprising variety of different types of ice pillars, though they look mostly the same.This one is only the 4th-5th seen so far, but already the 2nd-3rd different type. So, not only does this teach us how to accidentally get crushed, it teaches about the types of pillars there are. This one happens to collapse layer by layer when you spin dash into it. The ones prior to this acted as one-way gates that shut behind whenever the player goes by. Other ones act as walls that can only be destroyed by riding on a ice block, or Knuckles. Other ones move up and down on a timer and have a chance of crushing the player into the ceiling or the floor. Other ones can still be destroyed by spin dashing, but instead of doing it in layers the entire pillar collapses at once and the player's momentum is halted.

>> No.2886131

>>2882946
lol no

>> No.2886135

>>2884974
Underneath the lift we again find a pair of opposing red springs. And again, they serve no clear purpose. It could have been neat if they had somehow managed to work a collapsible ice pillar into this setup. So the bouncing back and forth would actually do something, allowing players to watch as the pillar is quickly brought down to size with minimal effort on their part. It's possible they considered something like that, but I don't blame them for wanting to keep it simple. They seemed to have enough trouble as it programming these things as it is, let alone if you start trying to bring springs into the equation.

>> No.2886136

>>2884087
This one adds to the different ways through levels and the placement of the enemies will teach the player that you can d stand on that rotating barrel thing.

I always hated those guys... Wheeee bash!! Love the music in this level too

>> No.2887737

This thread is making me tear up with laughter, plz continue

>> No.2888482

>>2887737
What's so funny about it, douche bag?

>> No.2888767

>>2888482
Haven't you heard? Caring about things is funny. Cool kids don't care about anything.

>> No.2888864

>>2882985
But there is no lower path there. That area is "mandatory". You arrive from below and then go left, and then up again on the upper route, but it is just a linear path

>> No.2888876

>>2888482
we are autistic because we are analysing a game.
where is the shit tier system sor shit tier autists guy, btw?

>> No.2888889

>>2888876
here
>>2883418

Remember to report and not respond
Yes I am aware of the irony

>> No.2888936
File: 36 KB, 500x375, 1394687905253.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2888936

>>2885000
>this is the first thing you see in the level and acts as a tutorial area
Too bad they forgot those details in this bitch

>> No.2888946

>>2888936
This thing kept me from finishing the game as a kid. The only reason I ever saw the last two zones is because Sonic Jam had an Easy mode that removed that barrel, among other things.

It wasn't until over a decade later that I just realized I could look up the answer on gamefaqs.

>> No.2888949

>>2888936
I still don't understand why that area exist in particular. Who felt the need to put a chockepoint where the only way to advance is using a gimmick in only one precise way that's not needed anywhere else?

>> No.2888976

>>2888949

don't you just have to press down on it?

>> No.2888991

>>2888976
you need to press up and down on it rythmically several times to move it down reasonably. However, the thing also moves when you jump on it, but the maximum displacement you can obtain by jumping is a bit less than with up and down; and in the rest of the level jumping on those things is enough to move them out of the way. It doesn't help that jumping on them a single time produces a good initial swing, while using up and down don't do much initially and builds more over time.

For a game that always teaches the player in game this was quite a mistake. Making that shaft even half length would have solved everything, and I can't believe they didn't see it in beta testing.

I remember some anons saying that it was mentioned in the instructions booklet, so that migth explain it, but I hadn't one

>> No.2889012

>>2888991
Not mentioned in the manual

>> No.2889016

>>2888991
Just went through Sonic 3's for shits and giggles there is absolutely no mention of the barrel. The closest thing they have to a solution is to have a second player fly sonic up as tails.

>> No.2889036

>>2882924
What a disjointed mess.

>> No.2889058

>>2888936
Yeah this was stupid. Only reason why I made it out of there as a kid was due to me pressing up and down while jumping up and landing thinking it would give more force on my jumps.

There is no point in Sonic 1, 2, or any stages before that stage in Sonic 3 that had you use up and down. There are screws or other objects that you held left or right to go up, but nothing to press up and down on. Then the fact that it reacted so well when you landed on it made you think you had to time jumping on and off of it to make it go all the way down.

Also if you are standing on a flat spinning object like that, why would looking up and down even move it? There are no controls on it to make it rise and fall, it is flat ground.

It was like they were forcing you to learn it, but you only needed to learn it for that one point because you won't be getting into a situation like that again.

>> No.2889151

>>2889036
How is it disjointed?

>> No.2889171

>>2889036
It plays well though.