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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 339 B, 242x238, Clydeeghost.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2801632 No.2801632 [Reply] [Original]

In terms of old-school game design, how can randomness fuck a player's strategy, specially when doing speedrunning?

For example, in games like Pac-Man, having a ghost that moves randomly could fuck up a bit, if not entirely, a pre-planned strategy.

Short-story short, what is /vr/'s point of view on "randomness"?

>> No.2801648

Pac ain't got it. Ms Pac does.

>> No.2801653
File: 23 KB, 637x371, Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2801653

>>2801632
>For example, in games like Pac-Man, having a ghost that moves randomly could fuck up a bit, if not entirely, a pre-planned strategy.

In my opinion, a well designed game is one where you can't go in with a pre-planned strategy and play it exactly the same as you did last time. At that point it's not really a game, it's a lengthy exercise in memorization.

The best games incorporate randomness in some way in order to make them more interesting on multiple playthroughs.

>> No.2801706 [SPOILER] 
File: 83 KB, 1191x670, 1447785951783.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2801706

>>2801632
just ask what people think of Mr. Hotdog in hamburger time

>> No.2801708

>>2801653

Roguelikes become interesting because you can't really guarantee a win ever. At least in good ones. A good player can maximize their probability of winning, but there is still a numbers game underlying it that could totally fuck you over.

Which I can appreciate.

>> No.2801725

>>2801708
Exactly, which is why they're one of my favorite genres. You can know one inside and out, but still get either unlucky or make one simple mistake that can absolutely fuck you.

I also really, really like exploring randomly generated dungeons. In human designed ones, they almost always make some sort of sense or you can feel the hand of the designer. So say you're going through somewhere and see a long corridor leading off the main path you're in. In most games, there's going to be something at the end of it. That corridor was put there by someone and there's a tendency to want to reward the player who explores. So even if it's just a tiny pile of gold, there's a good bet there's going to be something.

In a roguelike though, if you see a long windy corridor leading off somewhere there's just as good a chance that it leads to a dead end as it does to anything. On top of that there's probably either a food clock or very nasty enemies pressing you forward. The result is that exploring feels a lot more uncertain and the choice of whether to explore down that path can be critical to how your game turns out.

>> No.2801758

>>2801653
I hate this opinion. Randomness boils down to repeating a million perfect runs until things fall into place juuuust right.
Not that you'd know anything about that since you obviously don't play hard videogames :^)

>> No.2801779

>>2801653
>I play games as a parallel to real life

>>2801758
>I play games as an escape from real life

>> No.2801782

>>2801758
> Randomness boils down to repeating a million perfect runs until things fall into place juuuust right.

That's laughably wrong. Especially if you're talking about roguelikes.

>> No.2801786

>>2801779

Spotted the troll. You just posted in the Sexy Cover Art thread, didn't you, little cunt?

>> No.2801793

>>2801786
>Calling someone else a troll and then using the word cunt

Don't you have anything better to do than shit up every thread every day?

>> No.2801798

>>2801758
It's really not about that at all though. It's about learning all the systems of a game and then being able to react to them however you encounter them.

Another good example is fighting games. The arena and characters in them are set at the start of the match, but what goes from there is a lot of randomness. What you try to get your opponent, how they react to what you do and so forth.

The whole point about games with a lot of randomization is that perfect runs aren't really possible or a thing you strive for.

>> No.2801802

>>2801793

>refusal to answer question
>answering question with a question

Yep, you did. What a fuckhead.

>> No.2801813

>>2801802
When you ask a question that doesn't deserve an answer, you don't get one. That I didn't start the thread is besides the point. All you're doing is trolling, plain and simple.

Seriously, this has actually been a decent thread other than you.

>> No.2801894

>>2801632
Isn't Pac Man entirely not random? I thought the ghosts move in response to Pac Man. That's how Billy Mitchell got a perfect game, because he knew how to manipulate the AI.

>> No.2801902

>>2801894
Clyde's movement is random.

>> No.2802090

>>2801706
that picture is horrifying

>> No.2802113

>>2801632
Pac-Man is entirely deterministic
many older games are able to be manipulated in real time.

However, to actually answer the question, I think randomness done right makes a game a lot of fun.

>> No.2802121

if a game doesn't have randomness, it devolves into pure memorization and executing the best strat. it's like doing a timed jigsaw puzzle contest and the participants all know the solution

mrs pac-man and CE give the ghosts AI that behaves, more or less, randomly-- and the best players at those games are way more skilled than the mullet guy that memorized that exact right paths and can play 51262692 hours

if all you care about is 100% pure reflexes in arcade games than memorization heavy games (DDR, bemani) are okay. if you care about using your brain and decision making then you NEED randomness, either in AI, procedural generation or multiplayer.

Tetris TGM is a good example of a game series that is both reflex heavy and also has decision making

>> No.2802131

>>2801632

randomness in pick ups is retarded, because you just end up grinding for that shit. Same for procedural generated landscapes, it`s all shit because it`s generally made out of various presets anyways and you end up revisiting the same dumb variation on the same room or type of landscape or whatever. Games like Minecraft, Binding of Isaac and majority of open world games that were made partially with generated shit are boring as fuck, it just end up as being padding.

randomness in enemy attack patterns is the only logical conclusion.

Otherwise human created > machine created.

>> No.2802137

>>2801648
Even then, it is only for the first seven seconds.

>> No.2802140

>>2801902
Wrong. He's totally predictable just like the rest. The ghosts only move randomly when an energizer is in effect, which is why those are left for last in any patterns.

In Ms. Pac-Man, they replaced scatter mode with wander mode, in which the ghosts DO move randomly.

>> No.2802148

Randomness sucks, end of story imo. It removes skill from the game and makes it so you just have to rely on luck. Yes in some cases if you are more skilled you can adapt to it but it also means the opposite and that you'll encounter situations you can't possibly win no matter how good you are just because of bad enemy placement or whatever. I like my platformers to be based on memorization of patterns so I can study that and master the game.

>> No.2802156

>>2802148
I think you are confussing "Skill" with "Memory". Skill is the memorisazion and (Optimally) understanding of the patterns and systems. Memory is just pressing buttons in the right order.

>> No.2802164

>>2802156
But it's not memory. Simon is memory. Something like Battletoads not only requires knowledge of what's to come but also the reflexes/skill to pull it off.