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/vr/ - Retro Games

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2759246 No.2759246[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why are sprites dead at Capcom?

>> No.2759247

Because it's 2015 and Capcom isn't an indie game studio.

>> No.2759250

They take too much work to make, especially too much work to animate. it's easier/cheaper to make 3D models and then animate them.

The new Guilty gear does a nice trick with its polygon models, they almost look like real 2D sprites.

>> No.2759251

>>2759246
money

>> No.2759252

>>2759250
>>2759251
SNK still hand draws sprites.

>> No.2759260

>>2759252
>SNK still hand draws sprites.

If you mean the last KOF game, they made 3d models for that and traced the sprites over those.

>> No.2759301
File: 19 KB, 480x360, hqdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759301

>>2759250
I have a hard time believing this.

Look at any modern game nowadays and you'll notice quite quickly 90% of the 150+ credits are given to artists. Sprites simply don't require the man power that full 3d assets do. You've got to model, mesh, skin (both texture and normals), key frame, and then tweak the results to get good 3d animation.

Sprite based games can be created with a handful of artists that either hand draw on paper and then rotoscope, or just sit down with basic graphics software and do pixel art. Granted good pixel artists are hard to come by now because of the shift to 3d.

I think the reason why sprites are dying is because businessmen think that's what most people want, and they are probably right.

You can see this in other games. One notable example was Yoshi's Island. Executives wanted prerendered everything because Donkey Kong Country had been so successful because of just that. Developers wanted a more sprite drawn approach. In the intro you can see the prerendered garbage, and it's objectively worse than everything that came after it in the game. However it took incredibly talented people who knew the hardware very well to make such a beautiful game using only sprites and convince the execs they were wrong.

>> No.2759303

>>2759246
You mean PIXEL ART? Because 3D sprites are still sprites?

>> No.2759309

>>2759260
So hand drawn then. Disney has been tracing real people as references for over 70 years.

>> No.2759319

>>2759309
>So hand drawn then.
If you consider rotoscoping "hand drawn'... it's nothing like what Disney did

>> No.2759335

>>2759252
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1anpA7ZTvQ

>> No.2759518

>>2759260
this. it was more rotoscoping than actual sprites (3D models with hand-drawn "textures" for lack of a better way of putting it)

also, SNK isn't doing that for KoFXIV because it's too fucking expensive and time consuming.

>> No.2759526

>>2759246
because everything is dead at Capcom

>> No.2759570
File: 693 KB, 768x256, 1432632262235.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759570

>>2759246
Because creating a full game full of HD sprites is demanding and time consuming. And HD means a half-assed job will be far more noticeable (SF2HD).

3D can look amazing now (not to say one is inherently better than the other), so why should they bother when they can still make good looking games with less work?

>> No.2759574

>>2759570
I want to live in your gif.

>> No.2759605

>>2759570
>Because creating a full game full of HD sprites is demanding and time consuming

But it's not. Nice gif though. Looks awesome

>> No.2759643

>>2759246
Easier to create DLC.

>> No.2759646

>>2759605
>But it's not.

It is. For Skullgirls they needed 4-5 months to create the sprite set for ONE character.

>> No.2759653

>>2759570
>3D can look amazing now

But in the OP's example, it does not.

>> No.2759720

>>2759605
it is though. ask SNK or Lab Zero.

that's why everyone with a brain cel shades.

>> No.2759723

>>2759605
Melty Blood, BlazeBlu, Dragon's Crown, and Guilty Gear would like a harsh word with you.

>> No.2759729

>>2759246
whatever effect they pull off with 3d graphics now, scales way better to multitude of target devices from one piece of artwork.

>> No.2759731

>>2759646
What, did they work 10 minutes a day on it?

>>2759720
Maybe they're just shitty devs who don't know how to do something simple like sprites.

>>2759723
Again: Shitty devs apparently.

>> No.2759737

>>2759731
>>>/v/

>> No.2759738

>>2759646
Did they hire people from Deviantart? The spritework for Skullgirls looks amateur-tier.

>> No.2759740

>>2759723
Surprise! BlazBlue, Dragon's Crown and Guilty Gear don't use sprites!

Surprise! Melty Blood has been reusing the same sprites since 2003!

>> No.2759743

>>2759738
go tell that to @kinucakes and @personasama on Twitter, I am sure they would love to discuss the intricacies of spritework with you

>> No.2759750
File: 1.47 MB, 3520x1400, qfg3bgs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759750

>>2759250
>it's easier/cheaper to make 3D models and then animate them.

That's actually a lie that's completely made up, but whatever.

The real reason is that with sprites, you don't have the ability to show off your tech as much. 3D models are more "impressive" visually, typically, unless you go all out with your sprites, like in the Golden Age of gaming back in the 80's/90's

>> No.2759752

>>2759731
I want you to draw a sprite.

A single sprite that would be found on an NES game of modest budget, no need to constrain yourself to color limits. Anything you want.

>> No.2759753

>>2759246
because 3d is superior. obvi.

>> No.2759758

>>2759247
I kek'd.

>> No.2759759

>>2759252
Not anymore. They're jumping on the 3D models bandwagon with the next game.

>> No.2759763

>>2759570
creating realistic and working 3d environment is even harder. you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, 50 year old fam.

>> No.2759769
File: 488 KB, 1600x900, cgi-forest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759769

>>2759570
i prefer hyper realistic 3d, fam.

>> No.2759770

>>2759750
While it's not easier but it is cheaper in the long run, models are reusable, easier to update, and can be used between genres.

>> No.2759772

>>2759653
that's because it's a capcom shit-tier game. no one is impressed.

>> No.2759773

>>2759743
personasama selling artwork of copyrighted characters, which he has no right to do.

>> No.2759774

>>2759750
to make photorealistic 3D? of course it is harder

to make hand-drawn style 3D graphics? no it isn't lmao

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022031/GuiltyGearXrd-s-Art-Style-The

>> No.2759775

>>2759750
+1

>>2759250
>it's easier/cheaper to make 3D models
utter retard detected who obviously never made a 3d model. top kek

>> No.2759781

>>2759774
no one wants hand-drawn style 3d. that's ugly.
people want hyper realistic 3d.
hand drawn 3d is something no one wants, nor 3d shills, nor 2d shills. win/win.

>> No.2759782

>>2759740
Either you need your eyes checked or you need to check out of this board.

>> No.2759786

>>2759301
I think I want to add to this that most people mistake technical ability for talent. I think that's why 2d has gone the way of the dino and 3d is so popular.

>>2759570
For example, take a look at this gif. I think everyone here can appreciate the artistic talent that was needed to create beautiful pixel art like this. That's because any of us can open up Paint, try to make something like that ourselves, and fail miserably.

>>2759246
Here, although 3d is more technically impressive, from an artistic point of view it is much harder to judge the talent needed to create such work because most video game players don't know much about how 3d computer graphics work. I think that's why posters like >>2759250 think 3d is easier to do than 2d.

I prefer to have talented artists embrace a dated medium than mediocre artists halfass a newer one, which I feel lots of 3d is. Only games that have innovated on 3d (I'm thinking things like Doom 3 with shadow volume rendering) really have advanced the medium.

>> No.2759790
File: 94 KB, 1696x2688, 34262.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759790

>>2759723
Breath of Fire 4 has a lot of nice frames.

>> No.2759792

>>2759786
>I prefer to have talented artists embrace a dated medium than mediocre artists halfass a newer one, which I feel lots of 3d is
that is why people like you don't earn any money/don't make games.

>> No.2759795

>>2759740
Dragon's crown uses some rotation tricks to cut cut down on animation frames, but the very core of it is hand-drawn sprite work, if fact it's probably a way more old school approach than KoFXIII.

>> No.2759798

>>2759782
you need to stop being ignorant, see the video linked in >>2759774

not sprites

>> No.2759801
File: 470 KB, 1920x1080, 2930746-8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759801

what the fuck is up with SFV's proportions

>> No.2759804
File: 496 KB, 2000x1548, hosseindiba.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759804

>>2759250
>it's easier/cheaper to make 3D models and then animate them
>>2759570
>Because creating a full game full of HD sprites is demanding and time consuming
>>2759786
>I prefer to have talented artists embrace a dated medium than mediocre artists halfass a newer one, which I feel lots of 3d is. Only games that have innovated on 3d (I'm thinking things like Doom 3 with shadow volume rendering) really have advanced the medium.

Top Kek.

>> No.2759806
File: 683 KB, 1826x878, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759806

>>2759740
>BlazBlue doesn't use sprites
What's this then? Claymation?

>> No.2759808

>>2759804
quality post

>> No.2759813
File: 20 KB, 64x64, New Piskel.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759813

>>2759752
Here you go, faggot. A modest budget for a NES game doesn't even pay my rent, so that's the best I'm doing.

>> No.2759817

^ Actual size of the reference BTW

>> No.2759818

>>2759801
I'm guessing it's to prevent over-sexualization of the characters by giving them a little bit of uncanny valley.

>> No.2759826

>>2759781
So you suggest all games switch to realistic CGI? Even games that are in a cartoony style?

Or that cartoony sprite games should continue using dated and time consuming spritework instead of imitating spritework with cel-shaded graphics?

>> No.2759834

Some are arguing that using 3D models in this situation ISN'T easier.

But it's not about easier. It's about efficiency vs consistency.

When working with 3D models it's easier to divide the work among several people and still have a consistent style and look. With 2D you pretty much need just a few dudes working super close together and drawing every frame from scratch so that it looks fluid and polished. It's a "too many chefs in the kitchen" situation. This was way easier when 2D art consisted of just a few squares. HD is what made it far more challenging. Flaws and inconsistencies are way easier to spot and way harder to avoid than back when you only had to work in a 64x64 grid with only 256 colors. (example not necessarily based on any established platform's tech specs)

Ask Capcom while they were making Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix... or SNK while they were making King of Fighters XIII if they didn't want to stab their eyes out every day while working on it. How something like BlazBlue is still coming out with new installments is nothing short of a miracle.

On paper, 3D modelling and animation probably has just as many complexities and nuances as 2D, especially if you want it to look GOOD... but they way 3D is done is way more condusive to splitting the work load with less risk of compromising the visual consistency.

THAT is why it's favored now.

Shit. I still have no clue how things like Metal Slug 3 got made without loss of life/sanity.

>> No.2759852

>>2759834
I forgot to mention Metal Slug. Even in the early installments the sprites were nothing short of godly and can stand shoulder to shoulder with even the best sprited games of today.

>> No.2759853
File: 1.00 MB, 1698x1131, business-people-around-computer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759853

>>2759834
This is an excellent point.

The overhead form 3d is much more upfront, but once you have a skinned model, you can pass it around to lots of people and animate it quickly as a team.

2d needs pretty much one artist and one artist only because you run into consistency issues otherwise.

>>2759792
>>2759804
Just because a medium is dated doesn't mean it's irrelevant. It's like saying I prefer well played acoustic guitar to a dub-step drum machine. Anyone can do the later, while you can't fake the former.

>> No.2759861
File: 26 KB, 320x240, inthehunt-9.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2759861

>>2759834
>Shit. I still have no clue how things like Metal Slug 3 got made without loss of life/sanity.
The devs had a share of experience behind their backs.

>> No.2759865

>>2759853
>Anyone can do the later, while you can't fake the former.
Anyone can do 2d sprite work, while you can't fake a 3d model. I can talk just like you, I hope you like it.

>> No.2759871

It actually is easier to animate a 3D model than to draw multiple frames for the kind of framerates and variable angles that everyone wants nowadays. That's a simple and undisputable fact, I don't know where the spergout ITT came from.

>> No.2759876

>>2759871
thats not true. while when the 3d model is finished it is easier to animate. but how do you get their?
you have to create the model and that is fucking hard. then you also have to rig it which is also a pain in the ass.
you obviously have no idea of creating a game ready 3d character or else you would be talking such bullshit.

>> No.2759878

>>2759806
>not sprites
>>2759774

>> No.2759879

>>2759801
Street Fighter art, bruh.
Shit's been bizarre since SF Alpha.