/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.2686974]

>If you feel the need to grind in jRPGs the the point of complaining, you probably just suck at these games.

How do you feel about this statement? Is it accurate? Does it tell the whole story? When did this statement become reguarly true? What are notable subversions?

[Anonymous No.2686975]

>>2686974
Depends if you want to deal with all the extra crap
Debuff, buff, status aligments, elemental attributes
Equipment resistance, bonus.
to much shit just grind a bit and you are done

[Anonymous No.2686980]

Depends on the game. By the 4th generation, most games had managed to get the pacing right where it wasn't really necessary, though there are obvious exceptions then and later, and maybe more notably games where grinding as a kind of "unlocking" aspect, for rare drops, for completion's sake, etc, is intended.

But yeah, I've definitely met people who grinded needlessly (read: far beyond the point where they'd need to be to get past the obstacles in the game at the point they were at)

[Anonymous No.2686997]

I don't know if I agree, some games I've played seem like they have nothing but grinding to their strategy. Mother is a big one that comes to mind, is there really any way to get through the early game without grinding?

[Anonymous No.2687001]

I grind for money, not levels. Grinding for money is a good base I find. Going into battles "underleveled" at least makes things more interesting too instead of curbstomping...but curbstomping.is satisfying

[Anonymous No.2687004]

>>2686997

How do you define "grinding"?

I played through Mother 1 and had never grind once. The only time you "grind" is when you get a new party member at level 1 and go to Magicant to buy them good equipment and there you grind a bit on your way back to the real world, but other than that, there's no grinding involved. Most people finish the game with Ninten and co. at levels late 20s or early 30s.

Make no mistake, Mother 1 has a high encounter rate (which was normal for the other RPGs of the time), but grinding is not required.

Grinding is, for example, in Dragon Warrior III, when you actually grind a goof character to level 20 to turn it into a Sage, then start again from level 1. That is grinding and will probably require walking in circles fighting monsters for hours.
I never had to stay in the same place fighting enemies to reach another level in Mother.

[Anonymous No.2687068]

>>2686974
>naming Jeff "Susan"
wew

[Anonymous No.2687214]

>>2687004
>This, and it happens even less in Mother 2. I was inspired to make the topic after listening to a podcast that praised Mother 2/Earthbound, but questioned that it was the need for the grind was too high and only saved by the instant win feature. But I couldn't help but question their ability to play the game when the hosts said they had to get their PK Rockin attack in order to fight Frank (You normally get that ability shortly before fighting the Titanic Ant that's after the arcade)

It just seems common to hear people still say that most JRPGs require grinding and this makes them tedious (or even more tedious if they didn't like the systems from the start), when in reality the player likely isn't using the battle system very well and thus has to grind to compensate.

[Anonymous No.2687223]

>>2687214

I just realized only now that her name is beartiger. Holy fuck am I ever slow.

[Anonymous No.2687341]

>>2686974
It applies to Earthbound a lot. People had this habit of not using PSI in non-boss combat outside of healing, still barely used half their arsenal in boss encounters (just nuke and heal), and complained that the game was a) too grindy and b) too simple.

There's a whole tug-of-war of buffs and debuffs and statuses you're supposed to be doing in a lot more battles alongside regular damaging combat, and it both injects a lot of strategy while also removing any need for grinding. You even got Jeff and half his job was to tell you what things would work when you encountered new enemies. The game's got great systems in place for non-damaging effects, who gets them and where they're each useful.

[Anonymous No.2687381]

I feel like I have to grind because I'm too good. If you backtrack a lot you end up getting enough experience but if you get by too smoothly the game punishes you.

[Anonymous No.2687661]

>>2687214
You kinda would want to grind some early on in Earthbound because the Sharks and Frank are pretty savage if you don't (though I've never done so to the point of getting PSI powers by the time I meet Frank).

But for the rest of the game, you really don't have to unless you make it a habit to run from battles.

[Anonymous No.2687664]

>>2686974
Depends on the game? If you feel the need to grind to the point of complaining in JRPGs where tactical (FFV) or mechanical (Mario RPGs) skill can decide battles without the need for a heavy level advantage, then you suck at them. But most classic JRPGs without too many options other than "advance to a new town, buy a new sword and then choose whether you want to use a fire or an ice spell" kind of leave you no choice but to grind if you're stumped on a battle as they're all about the bigger number.

[Anonymous No.2687670]

>>2687214
Absolutely correct. You don't have to grind in Earthbound, but obviously it makes the game easier. There are some JRPGs where you 'have' to grind, though, it's especially a staple in the older JRPGs.

The best JRPGs are those where grinding does not give you that much of an advantage. I'm not sure which older JRPGs do this really well, but non-retro games like Bravely Default and Etrian Odyssey IV do it well. Of course a level 100 character will be stronger than a level 70 character stat-wise, but you can struggle with bosses at high levels if your skills and party are poorly balanced where a party 10 or 20 levels lower can succeed if you're actually good at teambuilding and stuff.

[Anonymous No.2687696]

It's not the grinding exactly, it's the retarded encounter rate, boring fights, slow animations, and the fact that stats matter more than strategy in general

[Anonymous No.2687725]

>>2686974
The fact that low-level runs and speed runs are a thing prove that the key to beating the majority of JRPGs is "git gud".

>>2687670
Tactics and sheer luck are exponentially better than anything else in Etrian Odyssey. You can beat the true final boss in 3 at around Lv60 with a shogun/ninja with a bit of luck in just a few turns.

[Anonymous No.2687741]

>>2687670
>>2687725
EO features a cheap common item that instantly takes you back to town, it's basically impossible to not win no matter how shit your build your party. A lot of jRPGs are like that.

[Anonymous No.2687771]

>>2687725
EOIV is much, much better then III though. Not sure if you've played it but the class and skill system is so nicely balanced, I love it. It's very different from the other ones. Allows for more experimentation, all classes can be useful and there are far fewer 'dead' skill points.

>>2687741
True, but that item won't help you in difficult boss battles.

[Anonymous No.2687979]

>>2687771
I've been spoiled by the rest mechanic in EOIV, it should be mandatory in any similar game

[Anonymous No.2688008]

>>2686974
Every good JRPG I've ever played has operated in an identical manner.

>You need to travel from point A to point B
>You will encounter enemies while going from A to B
>Killing only those enemies you encounter will always provide you with enough exp and gold to keep the game going without hitting a wall
>With the above statement being true, you will never have to fight excess enemies just to keep up
>Consequently, running from most/all battles will catch up to you later in the game

Chrono Trigger is a good example of this. Most of the lesser battles in that game are placed in such a way that you gain adequate enough levels to keep the game going. This makes "grinding" completely uneccesary to progress.

Games with random encounter systems also often work on the same principle, except that they try to hit that sweetspot through adjusting the encounter rate until it pushes the player along fast enough, granted they don't run from a majority of them.

[Anonymous No.2688009]

>>2688008
This so hard

[Anonymous No.2688082]

What are some JRPGs that award you you significantly more XP when you take down high level monsters with low level XP? Such a great mechanic and the only retro game where I've seen it was SMT.

[Anonymous No.2688091]

>>2688082
>Touhou
None of those characters are retro, out.

[Anonymous No.2688146]

>>2687696
Listen to this man

[Anonymous No.2688148]

>>2688008
>Every good JRPG I've ever played has operated in an identical manner.
So you've simply dismissed JRPGs that operated otherwise as "bad". Sure showed 'em.

[Anonymous No.2688161]

>>2687696
this soured SD3 for me, such a dull game.

[Anonymous No.2688672]

>>2686975
If you don't want to use buffs and spells and equipment then why the fuck are you even playing RPGs in the first place? Clearly all you want to do is mash A to skip the gameplay. You might as well just go watch an anime.

[Anonymous No.2688684]

>>2688091
Alice is a PC-98 character, so it's retro.

[Anonymous No.2691523]

>>2686974
>Susan

[Anonymous No.2691739]

>>2687068
Heh, I hadn't noticed that.

[Anonymous No.2691809]

>>2686974
It depends on the game and how smoothly level progression is designed. Some JRPGs just have bad level progression that doesn't match the difficulty curve and they don't give you the tools needed to overcome the disparity in stats. There are games where a normal and reasonably skilled player would have to grind in some parts (Earthbound) and games where that same player wouldn't have to grind to progress at any point if he leverages the tools that the game gives him (Chrono Trigger). So whether grinding is a product of poor design or player skill really depends on the game.

[Anonymous No.2691827]

>>2687341
Excellent post. I find consumables and gadgets are also underutilized among Earthbound complainers.

[Anonymous No.2692432]

>>2687004
Uh, I'm playing through EB right now and I got the PK Rockin' well before Frank.

Also, yes, grinding is necessary somewhat in EB. I don't care how far you have your head up your ass, no amount of "skill" will let you get through the 5 policemen or Frank and his robot if you fight them as soon as you can.

[Anonymous No.2692439]

>>2687341
I avoid buffs/debuffs like the black plague in jrpgs since 99% of them either don't work for bosses or are a waste when using them on regular enemies.

I've been using PSI for jack shit besides healing because you lose health fast enough already and PSI is basically an extension of your health bar.

[Anonymous No.2692452]

HOLY SHIT FUCK EARTHBOUND

FIGHTING A MOBILE SPROUT AND NESS MISSED 8 TIMES IN A FUCKING ROW

ONE NUKE WASNT ENOUGH

[Anonymous No.2692453]

>>2692432

Just by exploring Onett, you will fight enough shark members and wild animals to provide enough exp to face Frank and the cops.
"grinding" by fighting some enemies while you explore the first location in the game is not the same "grinding" required in other RPG like the aforementioned Dragon Warrior III.

The only "gridning" in Earthbound will be if you want to get the rare drops like the sword of kings or the magical frypan.

[Anonymous No.2692457]

>>2688684
This, Touhou is also before 2000 so it fits as well as n64 games

[Anonymous No.2692460]

>>2692452

call your mom

[Anonymous No.2692462]

>>2692452
Is your accuracy stat really that low anon?

[Anonymous No.2692465]

>>2692453
I genocided everything in Onett and got oneshotted by Frank. Fucked around until I leveled up twice more and raped ass.

>>2692460
I just did, all she did was provide the Escargo thingy for me.

>>2692462
Theres no accuracy stat in EB.

[Anonymous No.2692557]

Got to Happy-Happy village.

Was I supposed to figure out a way to reach that house inside the valley of exploding trees?

[Anonymous No.2692572]

>>2692557
You'll get a key to it pretty soon iirc.

[Anonymous No.2693481]

>>2687696
And the linearity.
I'm playing Phantasy Star 2 at the moment and the quest demanded that I amass 10,000 Meseta which left me with little choice other than walking around until I got the money since I could hardly sell my equipment.
Worst of all you could give the item to the wrong guy requiring you to repeat the process.

[Anonymous No.2694315]

>>2691827
Maintaining your health and finding food items is part of the fun

[Anonymous No.2694324]

>>2692465
Is there a mushroom on your head?

[Anonymous No.2694337]

>>2686980
>games where grinding as a kind of "unlocking" aspect
FF6 seems to have plenty of this going on. Which is fine by me, because you technically don't *need* to max out your Espers, break the curse on the Cursed Shield, stock on on Gau's Rages, find Gogo, defeat all 8 Dragons, see all of Shadow's dreams, etc. before defeating Kefka. But doing all of that is still pretty sweet in the end.

Dealing with the Cursed Shield was tedious as fuck for me. I spent a few grinding sessions just plugging away at the random encounters on that island where [spoiler}Cid dies,[/spoiler] because those enemies pretty much just evaporate. Too bad they only give you 1 ability point per battle.

[Anonymous No.2694369]

>>2694337
Nice spoiler tags.

[Anonymous No.2694809]

Ignore this pls, just want to post it so I can reverse search it.

[Anonymous No.2694835]

>>2694809

... you don't know how to properly reverse image search?

wow.

[Anonymous No.2694858]

>>2688082
Off the top of my head, though they aren't exactly what you're looking for:
Legend Dragoon does this... sort of. Monsters give out shit XP but bosses give out a whole bunch.

Dragon Quest VI had a sort of deal where if you kill monsters too low of level, it wouldn't count toward your class levels. It did however, count toward your main levels until you hit the cap.

[Anonymous No.2694865]

>>2688082
The Suikoden games have this mechanic.

[Anonymous No.2694918]

>>2694809
Do you know how Google works?

[Anonymous No.2694954]

>>2686974
It depends on the game giving you enough to work with in place of higher levels. FF1 and to a lesser extent 4 are the complete opposite of this. The lower your levels the more the game turns into a luckfest that isn't fun to play.

[Anonymous No.2694956]

>>2694809
do you not see the upload button you tard

[Anonymous No.2694978]

>>2686975
This is the best answer. Are you playing RPGs strategically, or just to 'relax' and blast through enemies. Most of the FF games can be played via low-level walkthroughs, but it's significantly tougher than simply leveling up and steamrolling the enemies around you.

[Anonymous No.2694989]

>>2688008
I did some grinding here and there in CT simply to get everybody's team moves. It's also been years and it was one of my first jrpg's so it might not have even been necessary.

[Anonymous No.2695031]

here is the truth of about 90% of JRPGs, this hold true to 100% of the popular JRPGS. Is that they can be beaten by just bashing your head against the game. The people that think these games are skillful are the type of people that will game it and find an exploit to git gud at the game. Just face it, JRPGS are casual games.

[Anonymous No.2695061]

>>2686974

Depends on the game

I dare anyone to play Miracle Warriors without grinding

[Anonymous No.2695565]

>>2695031
>Is that they can be beaten by just bashing your head against the game.
Like all games then.

Nice post, I like it, +1

[Anonymous No.2695627]

>>2695565

Not that guy, but the main difference is that in action games, you still need to git gud even if you do it by playing the same section over and over for hours before finally beating it. You still have to memorize shit, learn the patterns, strategize everything properly if it applies, then finally you need the reflexes and everything to beat something in one go.

In RPGs, there's often the option to just grind and completely remove the skill element in a lot of cases, so you can win with your stats and equipment alone. I think that was part of what made Dragon Quest so popular in Japan. It was a game where unlike arcade games or stuff like Mario and Zelda, you didn't need to be good to win, so it made it more appealing to non-gamers. Then the genre went from there.

I like RPGs that have either a strong strategic element like in tactical RPGs, or good action-based combat like Star Ocean, so you keep the good parts from RPGs like customization, micromanagement, good world design, exploration, etc. but you also good gameplay based on positioning that requires skill and problem-solving instead of the Dragon Quest style which is more based on stats, equipment, and randomness.

Speaking of Star Ocean, it's actually pretty relevant to the OP. Lots of people complained that third game in particular required some grinding, but it really doesn't. If you git gud, you don't need to grind at all.

[Anonymous No.2695669]

>>2695627
>You still have to memorize shit, learn the patterns, strategize everything properly if it applies, then finally you need the reflexes and everything to beat something in one go.

There's only a handful of action games where you need to go through all that, the vast majority of them are cakewalks that don't need anything more than the reflexes and mental capabilities of a 6 years old child, just as most RPGs were designed for young people and children.
Arcade games are made to make you waste as much money as possible on them and they shouldn't be compared at all to console titles because their purpose is entirely different, the difficulty in those games is purely gratuitous and the learning curve is extremely steep most of the times, the only people who like to wank on the superb design or difficulty of arcade games are just try hards who think that difficulty is as synonim for quality.
90% of all games can be beaten by bashing your head on them, because they are easily accessible and therefore popular, saying that a genre is inherently more or less difficult than another is like saying that chess or billiards take less skill than rifle shooting or wrestling.

All games require different skillsets and the vast majority of them have lots of convenient backdoors for the lazy players, there's as many difficult and well designed RPGs/JRPGs just as there's well designed platformers and action games, for every Battletoads there's a Wizardry IV just as for every Mario there's a Dragon Quest.

[Anonymous No.2695712]

>>2688082
Not really levels or experience points, but a lot of SaGa games like SaGa Frontier reward you with tons of stat boosts and a high chance to spark new skills during battle. In general it is just better to challenge your party than to find the weakest monsters due to battle rank and how gaining stats and skills work for humans.

[Anonymous No.2695714]

>>2695565
it's like you're putting in a special effort to miss the point

[Anonymous No.2695728]

>>2695669
>There's only a handful of action games where you need to go through all that

lolno. There are hundreds of them, especially if we're talking about retro games here.

Even a game like Super Mario Bros. requires a bit of memorization, learning the patterns of Bowser, Hammer Bros., Fire Bars, and of course you actually need to use your reflexes. My mom probably couldn't beat a game like Zelda 1 even if she spent the rest of her lifetime trying, but she could beat Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy by grinding and getting by through sheer numbers if she spent enough time on it.

>Arcade games are made to make you waste as much money as possible on them and they shouldn't be compared at all to console titles

I wasn't comparing them, I was just making a related point about why the genre got popular in the first place. In the mid-80's in Japan, you had arcade games which were very challenging games, tests of skill, then complex RPGs and other games on computers that only a few people owned, then consoles came around with mostly games that were based on what you saw in arcades. Dragon Quest was released, and it was more story-based and accessible, more simplistic than CRPGs, when you died you didn't have to pay real money or start over from the beginning, you just lost half your money and went back to the castle, and there was no skill barrier so anyone from your great grandmother to your little sister could play and win. That was part of what made the series and genre popular with everyone including non-gamers over there.

Anyway, he phrased it in a dickish way but his point was simply that in RPGs you can almost always win by grinding if you want. It's a stupid reason to write off a genre since as the OP points out it's usually your own fault if you have to grind, but it's true. You'd have to acquire the skills necessary to beat a game like Zelda 1, but you wouldn't for most RPGs because there's always the option to get overleved to win without any effort.

[Anonymous No.2695758]

>>2695728
>Even a game like Super Mario Bros. requires a bit of memorization, learning the patterns of Bowser, Hammer Bros., Fire Bars, and of course you actually need to use your reflexes.

Even a game like Final Fantasy requires a bit of brain and common sense since you have to deal with different enemies that can instakill or cockblock you with statuses and there's nothing grinding will do about them, the only way to do that is making a good party an knowing what to do against certain enemies.
They're both basic tools that don't require much effort, not to mention that SMB has lives whereas any RPG from that age led you straight to the game over screen if you lost a battle, I can grind lives in any Mario game and keep on going against Bowser or any level with little worry since there's no way I'd spend more than 99 lives on a single level or boss without learning the patterns, not to mention that in games like SMW2 I can always repeat levels ad infinitum and grind for lives or power ups.

>My mom probably couldn't beat a game like Zelda 1 even if she spent the rest of her lifetime trying,
That's a shitty argument, those games aren't rocket science, as long as you have the will to you'll learn how to play it in little time, you don't magically learn things out of nothing, it's just as you said for DQ or FF, if she spent enough time she would learn how to play those games, problem is she most probably doesn't give a shit.
>there was no skill barrier so anyone from your great grandmother to your little sister could play and win.
And where's the skill barrier in games like Castlevania where they even give you passwords to bypass levels, which are by the way, universal and anyone could use unlike RPGs.

[Anonymous No.2695792]

>>2695758
>I can grind lives in any Mario game

Only after Mario 3 really. The only way you can grind lives in the first Mario game is by using a glitch. Otherwise you need to find secret lives and collect hundreds of coins in limited quantity. In Mario 2 you have to win the lottery or find secret lives in the dark world.

But the point is that regardless of how many lives you have, you still need to be good enough to beat the next level. If you're not good enough to beat 8-3 in Super Mario Bros. 1 as Small Mario, with all those fucking Hammer Bros., you're done. It's a pretty hard level if you don't have a mushroom or fire flower. If you can't beat Dracula in Castlevania, it doesn't matter how many lives you have. It'll make it easier for you to learn his patterns since you can keep fighting him and dying until you can beat him, but you still need to be good enough to do that.

If my party gets up to level 70 halfway through Final Fantasy 1, and my inventory is filled with health items, there is basically no threat. It's not like I need good reflexes or to learn anything, I'll be able to steamroll through the rest of the game because I'm overleveled as shit. Sure I need to know where to go and how some enemies should be handled but there's no challenge anymore if you've grinded long enough.

>That's a shitty argument, those games aren't rocket science, as long as you have the will to you'll learn how to play it in little time,

I don't think you realize how bad a lot of people are at videogames. My mom is the kind of person who will die 3 times against the first Goomba in Mario 1 before she gets further. These are the kind of people who only play mobile games and Just Dance on Wii now. Being able to progress by grinding in a turn-based game where you don't have to stress or use your reflexes makes a world of difference to these people compared to playing twitch action platformers.

[Anonymous No.2695826]

>>2695792
>you still need to be good enough to beat the next level.
The same could be said for a lot of RPGs, there are tons of monsters or bosses that bypass stats or level, not to mention games that either make stats useless compared ot skillsets or games that make grinding either dangerous or downright non existent.

Vagrant Story won't let you go further if you don't craft the weapons you need and use your skills, mostly because there's no experience system and the stats are only augmented randomly after each boss battle or by using rare items.
Front Mission 2 consists of a set of maps with limited enemy amount so you can't grind and on top of that you have to manage the growth of all your members on top of having to deal with upgrading your Wanzers piece by piece.
SaGa games after the GB trilogy have Battle Ranks which increase drastically as you keep on fighting, most of them have fixed stats as well so you can't grind to win by sheer brute force alone, not even Frontier allows you to do that and that's the most grindable game in the series.
Lunatic Dawn III has entirely randomized worlds and questlines making grinding extremely difficult on top of having a rather brutal difficulty curve.
And the list could go on.
>If my party gets up to level 70 halfway through Final Fantasy 1, and my inventory is filled with health items, there is basically no threat.
FF's level cap is 50 and Temple of Chaos still has enemies that can petrify you or instakill you, but I agree that the threat is still minimal if you have the testicular fortitude to grind for hours.
>I don't think you realize how bad a lot of people are at videogames.
People are bad at videogames because they don't have the interest to progress, I used to suck at SHMUPS until a few years ago when I decided to get gud and even though I'm a fairly proficient FG player I still had difficulty and even now I can't say I'm good at them.

[Anonymous No.2695838]

>>2686974

Dragon Warrior is mathematically impossible to beat without grinding

[Anonymous No.2695881]

>>2695826

You bring up some examples that partly support my original post. Vagrant Story has a timing-based combat system, Front Mission 2 is a TRPG. Those types of game usually emphasize player skill and strategic decisions a lot more.

But even the guy's original post said this didn't apply to 100% of RPGs. Of course you can find a lot of exceptions, but it still works as a general rule.

I might actually check out Lunatic Dawn III.

>>2695826
>People are bad at videogames because they don't have the interest to progress

Sometimes yes. And they may have more interest to progress if it just means grinding a bit instead of learning how to get really good at something.

Sometimes people are just bad at videogames because they have bad pattern recognition, reaction time, problem-solving skills, hand-eye coordination, short-term memory, etc.

Sometimes they just cant git gud, or get better fast enough, so grinding lets you circumvent that. Instead of "progress" being arbitrarily defined by how better you get at the game, even if tomorrow you could pick up the controller and suddenly start sucking, or pick it up a week later and forget most of what you learned, it's defined by actual stats, numbers and new equipment that show how your character evolved. You don't have any pressure to become better and perform, you can just let your character do the job. That's part of the appeal for people who enjoyed Dragon Quest more than tough platformers.

My mom is okay a Tetris but that's it. Maybe she could get good enough to beat Zelda 1 but I'll never find out because she can't get past the first dungeon and will never play the game long enough to see if she could beat that dungeon, let alone the whole game.

[Anonymous No.2695924]

>>2695881
>Vagrant Story has a timing-based combat system
Well, the timing part isn't really that important or hard, if you're good you don't even need to counter or even chain.
> Those types of game usually emphasize player skill and strategic decisions a lot more.
Meh, the more games I play the less I'm convinced about this statement, I'm finding more and more standard turn based game with better system than TRPGs.
>I might actually check out Lunatic Dawn III.
If you liked Diablo/Daggerfall you'll probably really like Lunatic Dawn III since it's very similar to those for a lot of things albeit it lacks the amount of content of Daggerfall, mostly because of the limitations of the PS1.
Sometimes it gets rather obtuse though it's the problem of most randomized games, but it's still a fascinating game and one of those "ambitious" titles that managed to deliver a good part of what it was supposed to.
I've been meaning to play the other games in the series since they're supposedly all different from each other but the staggering amount of text in the first two has been scaring me a bit.

Also, another game which might interest you could be Zill O'll, which got an excellent PS2 and PSP remake some years ago.
While the battle system and difficulty leaves a lot to be desired the role playing and game's progression is top notch, if you're familiar with Koei's Uncharted Water/Inindo games it's very similar to those in scale and scope but with more focus on combat and story rather than resource management which is surprisingly non existent in this.

[Anonymous No.2696020]

>>2695924

Thanks I might try that out too. I did play Uncharted Waters and some of the RotTK games.

[Anonymous No.2696028]

>>2686974
Yeah, pretty accurate tb perfectly h with you.

Growing up, I hated RPGs. Didn't start to enjoy them until I played Skies of Arcadia, then went back and played Chrono Trigger and a bunch of other classics. I never NEEDED to grind in these games. Even Earthbound, there were a couple of hard parts, but I found, usually, that was because I was letting my battle strategy become too rigid. If I ever did grind, it was very minor, to the point that you couldn't even call it grinding. There was a little bit of grinding in Skies of Arcadia when you get your fourth party member and she's like 10 levels below you.

Now there are exceptions, games with changeable classes like DQ9 and Bravely Default. Bravely Default in particular, I felt like the game expected me to constantly switch classes and grind to get more abilities, so it was annoying and ultimately led to me dropping the game. DQ9, however, I appreciated the way that any classes' abilities were available to all classes, as well as the ability points you earned, so grinding never felt like a waste of time.

So yeah, I've never felt the need to grind, but I have done it because of the benefits it offers in a good multi-class character system.

[Anonymous No.2696041]

>>2695627
Star Ocean 3 is my fav game of all time.
I really enjoy the battle system in that game.
I grinded in that just for the fun of it and the battle music, and it was nice having tons of money for inventing shit. Man...I've sunk so much time into that game.

[Anonymous No.2696079]

>>2696041

You can literally beat the last boss of the game with a level 1 character, without any good equipment or anything required. If you want a game where the whole "this game is too grindy" excuse is bullshit, look no further than it.

People said the same thing about Valkyrie Profile 2 and Resonance of Fate, but how much you need to level up is also determined by how good you are at the game. You can pretty much never get hit in VP2 if you're good enough.

[Anonymous No.2696508]

>>2688082
is this a real game? rpg maker or something? looks really bad

[Anonymous No.2696590]

>>2688082
The Gen 5 Pokemon games do this

[Anonymous No.2696610]

>>2686974
Most games you really don't need to grind in. There are of course some that are near-impossible without it, but I've found that just regularly battling enemies I come across and not seeking out more to grind can get me through most JRPGs I've played, though I've mostly played Squeenix games.

[Anonymous No.2696638]

>>2696508
Touhou Soujinengi, and it's actually one of the greatest games of all time

[Anonymous No.2696719]

Would it be possible to do a no-grind challenge in F1? Marsh Cave feels like an obvious roadblock candidate.

[Anonymous No.2696753]

>>2686975
>buffs, debuffs, stats, elements can help you avoid the grind
ONE MORE GOD REJECTED

Just play Shin Megami Tensei, everyone

[Anonymous No.2696771]

>>2692452
Dont use slingshots they fucking suck.

[Anonymous No.2696773]

>>2692465
There is a hidden accuracy stat. Gutsy bat and all slingshots have a good chance of missing.

[Anonymous No.2696796]

>>2686974
It's probably correct because I suck major dick at RPGs. The only ones I've ever beaten without grinding are Paper Mario (&TTYD) and Chrono Trigger.

[Anonymous No.2696860]

>>2692453
>The only "gridning" in Earthbound will be if you want to get the rare drops like the sword of kings or the magical frypan.
Or if you wanna boost Ness early and grind with Jeff to get that one bat so he can bring it with him to Threed.
Or if you wanna sit around and fight Foppy's/Fobby's in Belch's Base/Lumine Hall for a couple of easy levels.

Somedays I grind just because I can.

[Anonymous No.2697256]

>>2692465
>>2696773
"luck"

[Anonymous No.2697263]

>>2695924
VS is a funny thing.

Chaining looks really good on paper, but its really used by people who are bad at the game, or people who are insanely good at the game.

You get such severe accuracy penalties by chaining and high risk its ridiculous., that being said, you can beat every single enemy in the game in a single combo if you're proficient at it.

Really nice combat system in VS.

[Anonymous No.2698962]

>>2686974
How many JRPGs can be completed with a level 1 character?

[Anonymous No.2698975]

>>2692453
I take you spammed Multi bottle rockets then?

[Anonymous No.2699029]

>>2697263
>you can beat every single enemy in the game in a single combo if you're proficient at it.
It's not even worth it when you can either counter anything to death or if you're really a mean son of a bitch let them pummel you to the brink of death and then kill them in a couple of chains with Raging Ache.

[Anonymous No.2699047]

>>2696753
Which is the best to start with? I've only played 4 which I loved but is obviously not retro. I tried getting into persona 2 and 3 but I disliked both.

[Anonymous No.2699069]

>>2699047
II is generally considered the best /vr/ SMT game and where the series really comes into it's own. IMO it's decently fun and challenging with less Wizardry-tier bullshit than MT 1-2 and SMT, making it a good game to begin with. Also it lets you kill God.

If you want to get closer to the roots, try Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei. It's a SNES port of the first two games and is more of a no-bullshit classic dungeon crawler with minimal story, though it can crush your balls. It also allows you to kill God.

[Anonymous No.2699118]

Got through the game with melee, healing, Starstorm, and stuffing Jeff's inventory with multi-bottle rockets. Was still fun. Pretty much only grinded for the sword of kinds and the fry pan.

[Anonymous No.2699150]

Depends on the game. It took most Japanese until near the end of the NES or start of the SNES to really get level balancing right. And even than some really sucked at it. Really some JRPG hide their grinding with other things like exploring and maze like dungeons which you are easily get lost and hopefully there is an exist spell or item that you can use. Most people that play JRPG nowadays use a FAQ and maps which lets them get to the next area too fast and so when that happens they find they hit a wall and have to grind for 30 minutes. When if they just played blindly they would have wondered that 30 minutes over that long period of time (a minute or 2 backtracking from a dead end in a cave, 1 minute or 2 finding the next town, ect.) all that extra time just exploring leads to more exp.

[Anonymous No.2699160]

>>2694337
I understand wanting to grind for good stuff

But there's people that says that you HAVE to grind in FF6, it makes no fucking sense, people that grind in FF6 are the same people that say that all JRPGs are grindy. You can literally finish the game somewhere in between lv25 and level 35.

[Anonymous No.2699164]

>>2686974
I don't find that I usually need to grind in games, but playing through Final Fantasy 1 shows an obvious need for it, at least to get enough money to get some spells and armor, especially depending on what you're rolling with.

Though it's interesting that playing later Final Fantasies, I never felt the need to grind. Does feel a little better.

[Anonymous No.2699170]

>>2699160
and people will play these JRPGs as they want to and not the way you play them or think you should. This is why they are casual games.

[Anonymous No.2699178]

>>2699170
This is the most dumbfuck retarded argument ever.

It's like saying that usind Kid Dracula in Parodius or using magic in Actraiser 2 makes them casual games.

[Anonymous No.2699184]

>>2699178
Nah just the JRPG that is done in the old wizardry/Draque/Finalfantasy style. Are casual games. Moms play Dragon quest in japan. Also games are not skill based at all. Just an illusion

[Anonymous No.2699189]

>>2699184
And ironic shitposting is still shitposting.

[Anonymous No.2699190]

>>2699189
Hurts... casual gamer?

[Anonymous No.2699194]

>>2695031
Well they were made to be like adventure games. Where anyone of any skills can play them without need to have twitch reflexes. They were made for small kids to retired grandmothers. Where if you know the whole system you can more or less blaze through it without much grinding (once they start to understand level balancing) or if you are the type that keep forgetting your characters miss if you all attack one group of enemy that if you keep going you can finally beat the game. Yes it's not as challenging as say Mario or need for twitch reflex as maybe Contra but it has it's own place that it does well. And yes I know he's a troll but I always hate how some people just bash games like JRPG for "not being a game of skill"

[Anonymous No.2699201]

>>2699184
You consider Wizardry a casual game?

[Anonymous No.2699206]

>>2699201
Sure if it pisses you off.

[Anonymous No.2699207]

>>2699170
Good thing games have a variety of ways you can play them. You can technically credit feed your way through every SHMUP in existence, but that doesn't make all of them casual games. Good JRPGs like FFV and SMRPG let you go by on your mechanical skills or tactical systems mastery without the need of grinding, and well-designed JRPGs with diverse gameplay allow you to tune the difficulty by imposing a variety of challenges on yourself. Japanese moms may play DQ but they won't beat FFV as a level 1 solo frog.

[Anonymous No.2699208]

>>2699207
>yfw japanese moms were actually god tier arcade gals in retirement
>challenge jap milf at SF2
>get rekt
>ara ara~
Someone should write a manga about this.

[Anonymous No.2699210]

>>2699207
nah you have to gimp yourself to be skillful at JRPGs. Like doing all stache runs in paper mario. And they wouldn't gimp themselves. They play for the story you play to show that you can outsmart a computer. Its okay to play a game like a faggot or an asshole. Also japs don't credit feed.