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/vr/ - Retro Games

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2627580 No.2627580 [Reply] [Original]

Several times I read that PSX hardware does the same thing like the SS to generate polygons - it distorts sprites.
Also I read that PSX can't handle sprites - all 2D elements are just flat polygons.

So, what's the truth?

>> No.2627596 [DELETED] 

It's a 2D piece of shit compared to the N64, but the N64 was hard as nails to program for.

Developers had a long time to work on the PS before the N64 came out and the programming was significantly easier. Because of the huge user base they got better returns and that's why it was able to squeeze out graphics comparable to or sometimes even better than N64 standard.

>> No.2627598

>>2627596
Who said anything about the N64?

>> No.2627604

Correct - neither the PS1 or N64 have actual hardware sprites. Games merely fudge it with flat textured polys.

>> No.2627619

>>2627580
Both Saturn and PSX just write 2d pixel data into a 2d framebuffer, without applying any perspective correction. They also don't do any depth information either (z-buffering, etc).

So neither of them can draw 3d at all. Both of them draw 2d only.

The biggest difference is that the PSX can only plot polygons with 3 sides (a triangle), while the Saturn can only plot polygons with 4 sides (quadrangle). PSX is also way faster, and can do more colours and transparency modes.

All graphics you see on the Playstation are just flat triangles. Both "3d" and "2d" graphics. Depth is achieved by drawing the further most triangle first, then covering it up with stuff that is closer to the camera.

See:
- Affine mapping
- Painters algorithm

It should be noted that PSX can also draw quadrangles too. Internally they are broken down to two triangles, but for a 2d game, this is a lot of help.
And the Saturn has a second gpu that does backgrounds in hardware. This was its major edge. Without this, the PSX would have been better in all 2d games too.

>>2627604
Depending on your definition of hardware sprites, either the Saturn doesn't have them as well, or the Saturn and PSX both have them.

>> No.2627629

I find the PS1 to be pretty equal at 2D with he saturn, the only drawback was too little RAM, the Saturn fixed this witn expansions.

In 3D though, the PS1 is often more impressive.

>> No.2627638

>>2627629
When people say that the Saturn is better, they are talking about animation and number of sprites. Neither displays a particularly better image than the other.

>> No.2627641

>>2627638
But the animation is only better when using RAM carts, there is no big difference with the rest of the games.

>> No.2627643

>>2627629
>I find the PS1 to be pretty equal at 2D with he saturn

Saturn had an extra cpu to handle tiled backgrounds, which gave it a huge edge in memory even without the RAM expansions. Plus it could do shit load of special effects. Without that, the PSX would have been better at 2d games too...

The memory expansion was just adding insult to injury...

>In 3D though, the PS1 is often more impressive.

PS1 GPU could handle polygons at a higher colour depth, do dithering to fake even higher colour depth (it did wonders on CRT TVs using composite), do triangles, have three very useful transparency modes with no overdraw artifacts, and also have shit load of bandwidth to abuse. It could probably draw more polygons than what the CPU could keep track of in-game.

>>2627638
Saturn could also do more 2d special effects, like line scroll, column scroll, etc. Check out Darius Gaiden, it is missing a lot of background special effects on the Playstation.

>>2627641
Animation was better without the RAM cart on the Saturn, as long as the games used the background processor properly. Darkstalkers 2 could do arcade-perfect animation on mirror matches, without the ram cart.

>> No.2627647

>>2627643
But Darkstalkers 2 is a Saturn exclusive, do you have an example for a multiplat game when that actually happens?

>> No.2627652 [DELETED] 

>>2627638

tell that to Street Fighter Alpha 2

>> No.2627657

>>2627629
>>2627641
With even take the time to post this when it can easily be debunked? Compare Street Fighter Zero 3 on the two systems to see the difference between them.

>> No.2627663

>>2627641

tell that to Street Fighter Alpha 2.

>> No.2627670

>>2627657

Zero 3 on the Saturn uses the 4MB RAM cart. Zero 2 is a better example, it doesn't use extra RAM; and it's still better on Saturn.

>> No.2627672

>>2627657
>Street Fighter Zero 3
That's using a 4MB ram cart, so no.

>> No.2627676

>>2627643
>on mirror matches,
PS1 could do that as well with a cheat code.

>> No.2627679

>>2627663
>>2627670
The only difference i can tell in Alpha 2 is that the intro in the PS1 version is FMV instead of rendered at real time. Aside from that there i hardly noticed differences.

>> No.2627691

>>2627679

The PS version has more animation frames cut overall than the Saturn ver.
As well as some other small details, overall the Saturn version was the better port.

>> No.2628338

>>2627619
>Both Saturn and PSX just write 2d pixel data into a 2d framebuffer

*groan*

You explain yourself really good later in your post, but this part can't manage not to sound retarded. Just say they're not using Z-sorting or hardware perspective correct texture mapping, really. Don't need to try so hard.

>> No.2628361

>>2628338
not him but what`s wrong? i think he said the frame buffer thing to draw a distinction between older ppus that worked with tiled backgrounds and sprite blocks and didn't support arbitrary size blitting. older ppus don't have a framebuffer where they work (afaik) but instead they generate the final picture by reading references of where stuff is, while the psx and the saturn had canvas like framebuffers that they could write to in an almost arbitrary way (with polygon/sprite engines as mechanisms to achieve that)

>> No.2628415
File: 408 KB, 1600x1400, 1439551591919.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2628415

>>2627580
>Several times I read that PSX hardware does the same thing like the SS to generate polygons - it distorts sprites.
Sort of, but VDP1 and GPU work differently. GPU scans scan though the polygons and fetch texels, like pretty much every graphics system ever.

VDP1 does it backwards by scanning through texels and plotting pixels. Because textures are quads, Saturn polygons have to be quads. Because you derive the pixels from texels, polygons are achieved by distorting the 'sprite' texels. But these aren't traditional sprites like on older hardware.

Other than the implications caused by this difference, VDP1 and GPU are fairly similar in that they don't accept depth parameters, but I think VDP1's interesting quad-based technique is significantly closer to the description of sprite distortion than GPU

>Also I read that PSX can't handle sprites - all 2D elements are just flat polygons.
As above, neither can VDP1. VDP2 can do tiles without polygons though.

>> No.2628431

>>2628338
>*groan*
*stop it* *you look dumb* *when you* *do this shit*

>> No.2629443

PSX hardware documentation: http://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm

>> No.2629462

>>2628431
*no*

>> No.2629495
File: 86 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2629495

I would really like to know what the N64 was capable of in terms of 2D. The only game that uses a lot of sprites that I know is Wonder Project J2 and it looks good.

>> No.2629505

>>2629495
How about Mischief Makers or Yoshi's Story?

>> No.2629517

>>2629505
Mhm, ugly pre-rendered sprites. Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you anyway.

>> No.2629526
File: 194 KB, 982x726, bangai13.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2629526

>>2629517

Those games aren't ugly at all, but yes it's "prerendered" 2D.

I think Bangai-O might be more like the kind of thing you're looking for.
There's also games like Super Robot Wars 64 or Puyo Puyo Sun. I think the N64 could do 2D just fine, but at the time, most people wanted to play 3D stuff.

>> No.2629537
File: 37 KB, 646x524, whglior1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2629537

I think this thread can be a general thread about old 3D techniques.

So, there's a question.
What's up with this bullet? Why it got... you see.

>> No.2629546

>>2629526
Does this screenshot disprove the other likely-oversimplified 5th generation rumor I've been hearing: that the N64 had a hardware blur filter across the entire screen that could not be turned off?

Your screenshot seems to show sharp pixels on the sprites with the usual hardware three-quarters-bilinear filtering on the white ring exploding effect.

>> No.2629553

>>2629537
Sprite flickering. Look it up.

>> No.2629567

>>2629546
It could not be turned off in the default microcode. Most devs used the default MC anyway because the system was poorly documented.

>> No.2629593

I wonder if the PS1 could every achieve something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

>> No.2629596

>>2629537
Flickering, are you new here nigga

>> No.2629601
File: 133 KB, 256x256, LSD_Coverart.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2629601

>>2629593

>> No.2629645

>>2629495
We'll never know, which is a shame because it should have been a SNES 2, focussed on 2D games, and made 3D games as more of a proof of concept.

>> No.2629984

>>2628415
Uh.... Where the h*ck is the Dreamcast?

>> No.2629987
File: 22 KB, 320x242, 1429875198399.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2629987

>>2629984
>h*ck
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

>> No.2630007

>>2629593
Most likely could because let's be honest, 3D on the Saturn is pretty damn similar to that of 3D on the PS1; it even has similar problems with textures, a bit of which can be seen in the Shenmue video.

>> No.2630061

>>2629984
Um, the SIXTH generation....? Maybe learn to read next time........?

>> No.2630171

>>2629567
>It could not be turned off in the default microcode
Yes it could. Read the system documentation.

2D games have their own separate microcode anyway.
http://n64devkit.square7.ch/n64man/ucode/gspSprite2D.htm

>> No.2630185

>>2630171
Here's another microcode for 2D games.

http://n64devkit.square7.ch/ucode/s2dex/02.htm

Somebody had to code this stuff up and it never got used.

>> No.2630205

>>2630185
>Somebody had to code this stuff up and it never got used.
That's actually depressing putting it that way. If only more developers for the N64 had given it a chance...

>> No.2631886

>>2630205
Maybe we get some homebrew stuff for it. Which reminds me, there really isn't much homebrewing going on on the N64, is it?

>> No.2631980

>>2631886
>Which reminds me, there really isn't much homebrewing going on on the N64, is it?
There's some homebrew stuff out there, but most of it is just demos and shit.

>> No.2632201

When we talk about which system did what better, isn't the biggest factor the games that utilized the technology?

What are the five most beautiful games on the Playstation?

>> No.2632381

>>2632201
Spyro 1, 2, 3; and Final Fantasy VIII an IX.
Honorable mention - Gran Turismo 2

Could Saturn Handle any of them?

>> No.2632389 [DELETED] 

>>2632381
I don't see why it couldn't do FF7, the poly count isn't very high and the frame rate during battles is only 15 fps.

>> No.2632406

>>2632389
Eight & 9 are a big graphical step up from 7, but I see where you're coming from, most of their beauty is in two-dimensional still backgrounds.

>> No.2632409

>>2632381
>Could Saturn Handle any of them?
Yes (probably even more so had they been Sautrn games AND supported those RAM carts). As I said before, the 3D capabilities of the Saturn are very much similar to that of the PS1's.

>> No.2632547

>>2632409
>As I said before, the 3D capabilities of the Saturn are very much similar to that of the PS1's.
The biggest problem with the Saturn is that VDP1 is largely inferior to Playstation's GPU, and no amount of good programming can overcome this.

Saturn either has to do some pretty crazy shit with those free backgrounds offered by VDP2 (not easy for 3D games) or utilizing the power of the two CPUs to do some insane blitting.

Without that, VDP1 will always be the bottleneck.

>> No.2633475
File: 421 KB, 1600x1200, 5th-gen-hardware.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2633475

>>2628415
I'd like to post a similar chart that explains the strenghts and weakneses of those consoles. Both go well together. It's not very in depth but I think it's quite accurate and fair with each system.

>> No.2635052

missing column for 3DO

>> No.2635205

>>2635052
And Jaguar. and CD-i. and 32x. and the Apple pippin. and Virtual Boy.

>> No.2635279

>>2627604

Does that take more or less processing power?

>> No.2635385

What would it have taken for the N64 to actually have graphics on par with the PSX? Better dev tools, a larger texture cache, no idiotic blur filtering?

>> No.2635458

>>2635205
>and Virtual Boy

lel

>> No.2635524

>>2635385
lol

N64: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJRPX02A9yY

PS1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ahwdIRxjyY

>> No.2635542

>>2635385
L O L

N64: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGy3x_pcAbs

PS1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN-J3UaFM2U

>> No.2635560

>>2635279
Depends on the hardware. On modern PCs I know it's faster to just texture polygons.

>> No.2635607

>>2627643
So the 3D in the 5th generation is just an optical illusion?

>> No.2635746

>>2635607
On PSX & Saturn, yes! The N64 has a real GPU that handles 3D concepts internally (depth-sorting / z-buffer, aspect-correct texturing)

>> No.2635749

>>2632381
GT2, really? The rear-view mirror in R4 has better graphics than the main view in GT2.

GT2 had all the extra simulation bolted on without any major overhaul on the gfx engine -- it was released a year sooner than it should have been because the PS2 was imminent and Sony wanted GT3.

It saddens me greatly that we didn't get a 100% GT2 with R4-like graphics :(

>> No.2635786

>>2627604
That's how most 2d games are nowadays. I remember hearing through the Shovel Knight devs (who made their game in DirectX/OpenGL for PC) that they just created flat square polygons and put the sprites over them.

>> No.2635792

>>2635524
To be fair, you cherry-picked one of the best looking games on the N64. Those graphics weren't at all typical for the system, and I believe that game used a custom microcode. Gran Turismo does come pretty close, and the specular highlights are more noticeable on it, but overall it doesn't look *as* nice.

>>2635542
OK, I thought WaveRace 64 looked awful, aside from the nice water effects, but it clearly beats the shit out of Jet Moto.

But seriously, why did so few games make use of the N64's capabilities? Is it just because Nintendo cucked its third parties?

>> No.2635810

>>2635792
>To be fair, you cherry-picked one of the best looking games on the N64
world driver championship and gran turismo are quite comparable, being both racers with realistic car physics

in some ways it can be said to be more favorable to GT since it's a premier sony franchise, while WDC was made by a fairly moderately sized third party studio

any N64 game that doesn't customize the microcode in some way isn't using the hardware properly

WDC looks tons better than GT during the night races due to the lighting

>OK, I thought WaveRace 64 looked awful, aside from the nice water effects, but it clearly beats the shit out of Jet Moto.
i chose them both as they were both early games, released in 1996

>But seriously, why did so few games make use of the N64's capabilities? Is it just because Nintendo cucked its third parties?
incomplete dev kit, memory architecture difficult to optimize

i think the lead programmer of WDC said that the reason many N64 games had bad graphics was because the programmers just weren't very good and PS1 tended to have way more skilled programmers (mostly due to simply having a larger base of developers)

>> No.2635812

In Final Fantasy 7, the Quake spells show off the way the 3d graphics work in a pretty cool manner. It creates a 3d pillar of earth, that then shatters into the bunch of 2d triangles that originally comprised it.

>> No.2635820

The N64 has a hardware 'metal' shading effect that makes the water in Wave Race 64 very easy to do!

Spyro would be a similar example on the PSX where the LOD lent itself naturally to the high-speed gourad-shading the PSX hardware was capable of.

I always wonder why the N64 didn't use the same technique as Spyro? A distaste of doing so? Hardware limitations?

>> No.2635826

>>2628415
>GPU scans scan though the polygons and fetch texels, like pretty much every graphics system ever.
>VDP1 does it backwards by scanning through texels and plotting pixels.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I thought both of them worked the same (ie. calculate the amount of stretching for the given polygon, then fetch the appropriate texture pixel), with the only difference being that PSX carves the triangle in half at the mid point and then draws it line by line from top to bottom. VDP1 meanwhile just goes from top to bottom on every quad.

But both just figure out 1. where to draw, and 2. which pixel to draw.

>> No.2635834

>>2635820
>The N64 has a hardware 'metal' shading effect that makes the water in Wave Race 64 very easy to do!
Ah, that's the built-in environment mapping feature. You can either use the world itself as a reflection or set a texture as a reflection (the latter was almost always used in conjunction with a 'metal' looking texture). You can do something similar on PS1 and Saturn, but it has to be software managed, so the movement of the reflection tends to be less smooth and more computationally expensive.

>I always wonder why the N64 didn't use the same technique as Spyro?
N64 has built-in hardware supported LOD. It's called mipmaps. Spyro's LOD is software managed, which means that the different 'stages' of detail quite obvious, while the hardware managed mipmap LOD on N64 provides for a smoother transition.

But yes, Spyro's LOD does go an additional step further and integrates gouraud-shading as the very last 'stage'. There's no reason why N64 games couldn't easily have this (you'd just set gouraud shading to replace textures past a certain mipmap distance).

But you also have to remember that trying to texture distant polygons is very expensive for PS1. Too far away from the camera and you get affine perspective errors (that can only be corrected via expensive tessellation), polygon sorting errors, and eventually ugly texture minification aliasing if you don't have the appropriate LOD texture ready to go.

Actually there was one N64 game I know that went with gouraud shading on far way stuff. Battle for Naboo by Factor 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oVPNeHOQP8

>> No.2635864

>>2635834
Spyro's LOD may be software managed, but it works the exact same way as the N64, except Spyro's mipmaps are precomputed. Other games (perhaps even Spyro) had model LOD.

>> No.2635885

>>2635864
>Spyro's LOD may be software managed, but it works the exact same way as the N64, except Spyro's mipmaps are precomputed
It works in a similar way, but the transitions between LOD levels is more obvious in Spyro than on N64 (and for that matter, the transitions between mipmap levels on N64 is more obvious than on Voodoo cards).

Spyro also does model LOD. There's no built-in feature for it on either N64 or PS1, but a fair number of N64 games do it (but not as extensively as Spyro which applies LOD even to the number of polygons in terrain).

>> No.2635904

>>2635820
And here I thought Spyro was one of the most "N64"-looking games on the PSX. Weren't there a shitton of N64 games that used Goraud shading in place of textures, due to the tiny texture cache?

>> No.2635943

>>2635904
>Weren't there a shitton of N64 games that used Goraud shading in place of textures, due to the tiny texture cache?
No, pretty much the opposite is true. This so called 'fact' was started by people who don't know the difference between flat-shading, gouraud-shading, and texturing.

I remember Wikipedia at one point wrote that information inside a box with a picture of Mario 64. The only thing in the picture that wasn't actually textured was a few pieces of Mario himself.

Playstation games tend to use goraud shading more extensively because texturing has some downsides. Also loading texture blocks into the its GPU is fairly expensive.

N64 has the bizarre situation of loading low-resolution textures is really fast, and loading high-resolution textures is really slow. Hence most games put low-resolution textures on everything. PS1 would generally have a small number of high resolution textures in a frame, but gouraud shading on the rest.

>> No.2636170

>>2635205
>>2635052
And the SFX 1 and SFX 2 chip.

>> No.2639150

>>2635792
>Those graphics weren't at all typical for the system
So what? The best of the best is better than what the PS1 can do and these games show it.