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/vr/ - Retro Games

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2625026 No.2625026 [Reply] [Original]

Why exactly were so many NES games so difficult compared to games of nowadays?

I get that games weren't as mainstream back then as they are now, but at the same time they were made for kids.

>> No.2625029

They were generally short, and the developers wanted to make sure you got your money's worth (i.e. You shouldn't be able to blaze right through the game in 10 - 20 minutes, and on your first try)

>> No.2625035

>>2625026
I think it was to elongate game time since the games were already relatively short, so they tried to make them as long as they could. Making them difficult would make the game seem longer then it really is. Games in the US were especially hard because of rentals being popular.

>> No.2625050

This was before the internet and they had guides to sell. Paid tip-lines were also a thing. Combine this with padding out length along with some games being ports of quarter munchers and you have a recipe for Nintendo Hard.

>> No.2625059

>>2625050
>Paid tip-lines
Has anyone here actually used them? How was it like? I imagine it's just someone with a binder full of stuff similar to published strategy guides.

>> No.2625079

>>2625059
I'm more concerned with how the got the data. Some games have very obtuse methods of being beaten. Did the developers share the source code with the guide people and they made their own versions? I refuse to believe that someone was able to figure out, oh let's say, Takeshi's Challenge just by playing it. They must've had some access to some insider information, maybe the game's code itself.

>> No.2625083

Watch as some elitist asshole come into this threads and starts bragging about beating super mario bros or something.

>> No.2625087

GET THE POWER NINTENDO POWER

>> No.2625093

>>2625083
You mean the Legend of Zelda?

>> No.2625113

>>2625026
When you are a kid you are also stupid. You don't really have the same kind of notion of "good" and "bad". I mean, yeah some games we distinctly thought were bad, but if you could only beat part of a game that wasn't a factor. If you thought the first part of the game was rad, then you thought the game was good.

As a kid, you don't necessary keep track of your unbeaten games like a to-do list and you don't feel guilt over getting bored of a game / quitting because you gave up. As a kid, there's a million exciting things to do everyday pretty much so it doesn't matter as long as the game lasted a week or something. You'd come back to it later eventually anyway.

>> No.2625116

>>2625079
I believe back then some games' puzzles and sidequests were made with strategy guide publishers in mind. As in developers would make shit so obtuse on purpose and then give the solutions to the guide writers to help sell them. Some examples would be various sidequests in RPGs. I'm sure this still goes on today.

>> No.2625121

The thing about the NES era was that you had to make sure kids played your game a lot in order to make it sell. Thus the games had to be a bigass challenge and i am sure than back then, people liked challenges because it made you a cool guy.

But these days videogames are like movies and the publisher literally wants the game to sell only on the first day or the first week in millions regardless of quality, that's why there's that stuff of pre-ordering and such.

And another note, NES games were difficult because either they had some gameplay faults [i.e. clunky controls/gameplay or the game itself had ways to one shot your face even if you can tank more shots, Castlevania games for example].

>> No.2625125

>>2625026
> I get that games weren't as mainstream back then as they are now, but at the same time they were made for kids.

Where did you get this from? I am 37 years old, and when I was 12, not owning a Nintendo made you a social outcast. I clearly remember kids crying with happiness when Super Mario 3 was released, and this was even before anyone had even played the game.

Also, the most important skill was the ability to beat Contra in less than 20 minutes without dying once. Everyone knew the Konami code, but it was considered shameful to use it.

Also, video games were not exclusively targeted at kids. There were Pong and Pacman tournaments in the late 70s and early 80s where most of the participants were adults.

Not all Nintendo games were hard. Some were very easy, like Legend of Kage, Paperboy, Kung Fu and Zelda.

>> No.2625134

>>2625121
>pre-ordering
Which begs the question: when did this kind of thing begin? What was the first game to do it?

>> No.2625135

>>2625059
I tried to use one once until I learned that it cost money. I thought that phone calls were stupid to pay for and bought a strategy guide instead, to look at pictures and read about everything.

I was a sucker for player's guides as a kid, not anymore though

also this was for Smash Bros. Melee, I didn't know how to get one of the targets in target test as Young Link

>> No.2625141

>>2625050
>tip lines
I remember when I was 8 I borrowed Bionic Commando from a friend. I got all the way to the end in just a couple hours playing but couldn't beat the fucking hitler helicopter, so I asked my mom to call Nintendo Power's hotline. They were amazed when she told them where I was after a few hours playing as an 8 year old.

All I had to do was aim for the fucking cockpit.

>> No.2625147

>>2625079
I like looking at old Nintendo Power issues, there's one guide for a Tom and Jerry game with maps of the game, and you could tell they mapped the whole game by moving Jerry through the entire game, taking a screenshot, and putting it into the magazine.

>> No.2625150

>>2625026
The habit of arcade games, trying to get them quarters from kids.
Also it miiight be because the developers really played them, got good and decided it wasn't hard enough. Though you can go the other way and say they played them with cheats to test it easily and didn't realize how difficult it would be without them.

>> No.2625165

>>2625116
>I'm sure this still goes on today.

Not really anymore, especially with YouTube. And even so, many modern games at least give you hints and methods to earn hints as to what you should do. Example; Arkham Knight. You can beat the main story of the game, but in order for you to beat the proper ending, you need to do other things. One of these things is finding the Riddler's trophies scattered around the map, sometimes with a puzzle to solve. You can apprehend random thugs (who are highlighted green) who will give you their location.

Often times the puzzles are easy to solve, but some puzzles are really obtuse. The only one I can think of is when you're supposed to pull out a beam, spray the liquid bomb on it, push it back in, detonate it, and then slide under the hole. Not as widespread anymore, though it has to do more with the nature of the games nowadays. People are busy, and have other things to tend to other than their games. The game world has gotten bigger, but there isn't much else to visit. Games got "easier" because the games are starting to get bigger and bigger. Could you beat these newer games if they gave you no way points or mission markers?

>> No.2625169

>>2625083
>bragging about beating super mario bros
Why would anyone brag about that?

>> No.2625172

>>2625125
>when I was 12, not owning a Nintendo made you a social outcast.
Cosigned. I'm the same age, and I was the last kid out of my friends to have a NES. Nintendo was a national phenomenon and every kid was playing it, or reading Nintendo Power when not playing.

>>2625134
>when did this kind of thing begin?
It started with retailers in the PS1 and N64 era, the first games I remember seeing preorders for were Castlevania: SotN and Zelda OoT.

>> No.2625175

>>2625029
>>2625035
>>2625050
You guys aren't wrong, but it's not like it was just something developers were pushing on unwilling consumers. Arcade design mentality came about from people actually wanting that balance of very tough BUT if you get really good you can go for a long time on one credit.

I distinctly remember one of those "letters to the editor" in an old game magazine complaining about Game Genie saying they didn't understand the point of renting a game, turning on invincibility, and plowing through the game in an hour like it wasn't even there. Obviously not everyone agreed, and there were lots of games that were balls hard in ways no one liked, but the demand for challenge was real.

>> No.2625180

>>2625175
Why do people need this concept explained? On /vr/ of all boards? If a game that relies on reflexes doesn't require you to get good, it's trash.

>> No.2625185

>>2625165
That's true about the busy nature of people and games, the people who grew up playing hard NES games as kids are now playing modern games and have jobs and families to worry about over how to beat the next level of a game.

>>2625172
>OoT
That reminds me of how my brother got a V0 Gold cartridge, from what I've heard the only real way people got a v0 gold cart in the US was by preordering, and we didn't pre-order but instead stopped at a random toy store and the only copy left was a pre-order that the buyer never picked up.

To this day I'm hoping someone hacks the 3DS game to have all the removed elements from the successive versions.

>> No.2625191

>>2625113
I kinda miss having that wide eyed naivety (bordering on stupidity). You grow older and get disillusioned, things aren't simple anymore.

When I was a kid I could force myself to enjoy things, especially video games. If I got a shitty game like Total Recall for Christmas, I would play it over and over again, I didn't care. The truly great games like Ninja Gaiden drove me to fanatical worship. These days I'm not impressed by much, but the old games still captivate me.

>> No.2625212
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2625212

>> No.2625215
File: 324 KB, 500x1967, nintendo hard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2625215

>>2625026
>>2625212
RIP

>> No.2625216

>>2625185
Even so, an NES game is still a quick and short game. There is no penalty to playing the game and then quickly shutting it off, since many games lacked a save function. The true issue came to be when save functions were introduced, and this posed two issues. The potential for save scumming, and artificially prolonging a player's time by making them play to a certain point if they wish to save. Many games had prolonged save spots, and you often had to find them somewhere in the world. This is very inconvenient if you wish to stop playing the game, but you don't want to lose your progress.

But could you imagine modern games without auto or even quick saving? No waypoints? No indications of where they're supposed to go, like in older games? It would be just like Legacy of the Wizard.

>> No.2625217

>>2625215
ah thanks, that's what I wanted to post but couldn't find it again

>> No.2625221

Because we were fucking better back then than kids today - bunch of fucking casuals.

There is THAT what you wanted to hear, OP?

>> No.2625228

>>2625026

because they were trying to simulate some semblance of realism

>> No.2625234

>>2625026

school was tougher... you actually had to learn shit and there wasn't that "no child left behind" bullshit.

life was tougher... if you were a fat ass, people would pick on you for being a fuckin fat ass. deal with it.

games were tougher... because they aren't supposed to play themselves.

you're from a generation of self-entitled pussies that thinks the world owes you something and nothing should be difficult in life. man up and play a goddamn retro system and STFU.

>> No.2625239

>>2625026

When I was a kid both me and my parents were disappointed when a game was easy, because it would take me a short time to beat it.
My mother would be like "what!! I paid 100 bucks for that game and it took you only 2 days to beat it?!?!?" In my country games were imported and very expesive.

I expected games to last me a long while, and back then that was done by making them difficult.

I remember being disappointed with both Mario World and Megaman X because of how easy they were in comparison to the NES games, and these days those games are considered masterpieces.
The NES Megaman games, and Mario Bros 3 from the Ice World on were much more challengin. (Bros 3 didnt even have save states, only warp flutes)
I beat Super Mario World in 2 days, and only because I got it in the afternoon and had to go to bed, if I had gotten the game in the morning I would have beaten it in 1 day.

You didnt get to play as many games back then as modern kids, although renting games existed. But, then, that often meant only a couple of days with the game.

>> No.2625242

A lot of gamers today put 50 hours into a game and have zero hand eye cordination. All they are able to do is select an action from a menu or let the computer fight for them. Its pathetic.

Anyway, the people who bought home consoles expected the arcade game experience. Those were quarter suckers. If a game has no game ending scenario and is too easy (like a lot of shitty RPGs), then there is no skill to learn and no fun. The difficulty helped people learn hand-eye coordination.

>> No.2625269

>>2625239
I am the same person who wrote this

also, back then, there was no shame in owning a game and not being able to beat it
In arcades, when someone was excellent, a crowd of people watching would form around them, because for them the ending of a game was a mystery and they wanted to see it.

>> No.2625280

>>2625079
>>>2625050
>>Paid tip-lines
>Has anyone here actually used them? How was it like? I imagine it's just someone with a binder full of stuff similar to published strategy guides.


>>>2625059
>I'm more concerned with how the got the data. Some games have very obtuse methods of being beaten. Did the developers share the source code with the guide people and they made their own versions? I refuse to believe that someone was able to figure out, oh let's say, Takeshi's Challenge just by playing it. They must've had some access to some insider information, maybe the game's code itself.


No source code sharing required.

Developers would usually create cheat codes in their games for testing and debug purposes.
They would leave them in because it was usually more cost-effective to do that, rather than remove them from the code.
Magazines like Nintendo Power would review the games and be GIVEN these codes so the reviewers could progress quickly and make screenshots and such.
Often these codes would be protected by NDA. Just look at the debug menu in SNES Sim City for example. That was never revealed to the public.
Other times, the developers would arrange for codes to be revealed by deals with magazines and reviewers after a set amount of time after game release.

You are right about the call centres having a binder with codes and cheats in it. All gained by the above mentioned backdoor deals with developers, magazines, and major companies to make more money.

>> No.2625286

Renting games was common, and developers didn't wanted customers to beat the games quick and easily.

>> No.2625287

>>2625242
>Anyway, the people who bought home consoles expected the arcade game experience. Those were quarter suckers.
Only legitimate explanation ITT. Even the rest of your post is bullshit.

The fact is that arcade games were hard because if they were easy they wouldn't make any money (one quarter would play the entire game every time), and console games in those days tried to replicate the experience of arcade games, even if they rarely succeeded.

>> No.2625293

>>2625083
Not sure why that would be worth bragging about. I sat down with it having not played it in decades and got to World 5, and I suck shit at platformers. It's not a hard game.

>> No.2625306

>>2625026
Inherently shorter.

A full run of like Castlevania or Ninja Gaiden is like 30 minutes to an hour, where as a modern game is on average 6-12.

The easiest way to increase length is to increase difficulty. Adding a large memorization and learning curve to the game to increase its length.

>> No.2625330

Like others said, length and rentals. Specifically the second or third level would have a fairly big difficulty spike in hopes that people renting the game wouldn't get too far into it, or beat it.
Co-founder of Westwood talks about it some in Aladdin and the Lion King:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILeyo1iv0A

>> No.2625356
File: 49 KB, 861x384, 2Chiyo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2625356

>>2625234
>this entire post

>> No.2625496

>>2625234
>I'm a child of luxury in the first world born in the 1980s who feels his chosen hobby, expensive electronic toys plugged into a television, make me better than someone who purchased similar technology 10 years later.

Nothing about those years was "tough." I look back on those with a fondness of my easy years.

>> No.2625501

>>2625026

because you where 6 and stupid

>> No.2625513

>>2625496

"tougher" from a modern pussy's point of view.

you get my point.

>> No.2625527

>>2625513
except nah. I know you're trying to puff yourself up so you can look down on kids these days, but nah. Kids today are pretty much the same.

our games were just kind of shitty, because the arcade coin muncher mentality was still active. Beating Doom isn't really any more skillful than winning at Splatoon, although different skills will be exercised.

>> No.2625532

>>2625217

me too

>> No.2625536

>>2625527

i'm not puffing up shit... just pointing out that if kids would get their asses off the internet to whine about shit, they might actually figure out how to beat the damn game. they don't apply themselves at all and think shit should come effortless. prove me wrong there. actually don't. good night.

>> No.2625537

>>2625527
>our games were just kind of shitty, because the arcade coin muncher mentality was still active
Only derpy murricans coin muched.

>> No.2625589

One of my friends has been attempting to 1cc Shinobi and finally did it this year. I hate to say it, but I still can't R-Type. Do you see yourself playing through Halo or Black Ops campaigns off and on for 30 years? Beating a game on the day of purchase is a hollow victory.

>> No.2625623

>>2625026
>games weren't as mainstream back then

Holy fuck, are you 15? There was Super Mario Bros cereal, Zelda bed sheets, everything. Nintendo was as mainstream as it got.

>> No.2625626

>>2625589
Yeah, it's really unfulfilling. A lot of modern games make me feel like a passive observer rather than the player, and end up not being engaging. And it's not the cutscenes, even the gameplay feels like it's on autopilot in modern games. Rarely are you ever forced to learn a game's ins and outs and reconsider your approach if you want to win.

>> No.2625637 [DELETED] 

>>2625079

Takeshi's Challenge is a bad example, because that game was made to be as stupidly difficult as possible.

>> No.2625638

I have read on message boards, in "did your parents play videogames" threads, stories of 40 year old mothers obsessing with a game and beating NES Metroid or 100% the first Rayman (although taking their time)
There is nothing impossible or bad about making games challenging. Hard games are fun.

>> No.2625640

>>2625623
They really WEREN'T as mainstream as it was them. Post PlayStation is definitely more mainstream compared to pre PlayStation.

>> No.2625661

>>2625640

I dont know

I think that with the Playstation console gaming grew because arcades begun to die rapidly, so, many people who got their gaming fix from arcades bought a console.

The opposite kinda happened this gen, many casuals who got their gaming fix from the Wii or Ds (the people who bought Nintendogs or Brain Training), stopped buying consoles because they are getting their gaming fix from tablets and smart phones or facebook games.

It wasnt uncommon to see office women and men playing tetris, bubble bobble or pinballs in arcade places during their lunch break.

>> No.2625663

So, I worked for ninehundred 288 0707, basically a nintendo game counselor. We had a ton of binders with notes from the development crew for each game. We were expected to become experts on 15-20 games as well, so that we could answer most simple to moderate questions without having to hit the reference books up. Depending on call volume, we were expected to answer so many calls per hour. Large amount of callers? Answer quickly so someone doesn't hang up. Few callers? Detail it out and ask them questions about non-related shit and try to push related merch.

Best call? Had a 12 year old boy brag about how he beat Silver Surfer all by himself without any of our help even though his mom said he could call us for up to 10 minutes if needed.

Worst call? All of the kids who would call us and their parents would find out and hit them. Nothing is worse than the sound of a child being beaten because they called you for help.

>> No.2625687

>>2625638
My mother was one of those people. She was obsessed with Ghouls n' Ghosts on the C64 and was the only person in the neighborhood able to beat it. Once games switched to 3D it was too much for her to handle and she never touched a controller again (though we did play a lot of Soul Calibur 2 together, but that's not retro)

>> No.2625968

>>2625663
>nothing is worse
I can't imagine how bad that must feel. Wanna talk about it?

>> No.2625986

>>2625113
>When you are a kid you are also stupid
This. Back in the day, it took me weeks, maybe months to complete any given RPG. Now as an adult I can breeze through it.

And it's not because I "know where to go", it's because I'm smarter. I used to have trouble with the black dragon in Lunar 1 for god's sake. In my previous Lunar run, I first-tried Borgan and Lunn, and completed the game 18 hours faster than when I first did and soloed the epilogue, including the doppelgangers.

Only games that take a while are ones that are legit time sinks like Etrian Odyssey or Shin Megami Tensei games, and even then I make very rapid progress.

>> No.2625992

>>2625663
>Worst call? All of the kids who would call us and their parents would find out and hit them. Nothing is worse than the sound of a child being beaten because they called you for help.

This is exactly why people should have to obtain a license before legally being able to procreate.

>> No.2626019

>>2625026
Because a lot of those games were still being developed by arcade game developers and still had the same design philosophies of arcade games. There are also some other factors like not wanting kids to rent it and beat it that same weekend in order to entice the kid into asking their parents to buy them a copy so they can have enough time to get good enough to finish it.

>> No.2626029

>>2625536
Quit huffin and puffin Mr.Wolf you're not blowing any houses down.

>> No.2626047

>>2625992
With the rates those places charged I'd have given my kid a smack too. Especially if he called without permission.

>> No.2626089

>>2625185
I hate you so much. I pre-ordered the V0 Gold Oot and guess what? It never came. They " ran out of them"

>> No.2626091

>>2626029
Not that guy, but I generally agree.

Kids now aren't prepared to apply themselves in games. For them, Gamefaqs is the copilot, and emulators (save states, speed up/down, etc) is the safety blanket.

>> No.2626105

>>2625134

I remember pre-ordering FF7 because you got a free t-shirt and a Playstation Underground demo disc.

>> No.2626262

>>2625141

cool story. great game. awesome mom.

>> No.2626375

>>2625536
That's not really fair. A lot of the difficulty in older games was stupid bullshit like knowing you had to jump on an invisible platform when fighting the dinosaur in the museum on Bart vs. the Space Mutants, or knowing to let the laser enemies fall off the screen during the final hall to Shredder in Teengage Mutant Ninja Turtles for NES.

Similarly, a lot of older games derive their difficulty from things you can't see or requiring the player to engage in rote memorization.

That is somewhat less of an issue these days because the internet makes finding information on this type of thing so much easier, but it also separates the bullshit from quirky.