/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.2465897]

When I think about it, this game actually kind of does suck. For an RPG, it has no replay value to speak of

>99% linear with no side quests to speak of
>No party organization to give certain characters priority over others
>No unique equipment builds that reward smarter thinking, not harder thinking

Would have been nice to have, but this is give or take:
>Alternate party members
>Alternate endings

Yes yes yes, I know, it has a great aesthetic and soundtrack, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a weak RPG.

By the way - what are the most difficult JRPGs out there? I've heard 7th Saga, but isn't that because of a glitch?

[Anonymous No.2465909]

>>2465897
>isn't it 7th saga because of a glitch
Yes

[Anonymous No.2465914]

>>2465897
Earthbound is a Dragon quest clone from 1994. JRPGs weren't exactly known for their complexity or deep gameplay back then. It told a nice story and had some charm. You are not the first person to make the discovery that it's not the height of SNES JRPGs.

As for difficulty, try Shin Megami Tensei 2.

[Anonymous No.2465928]

>>2465909
What glitch was that?

[Anonymous No.2465930]

>>2465928
You can overlevel your companion to a point where you cannot beat them when you're required to fight them.

This will occur almost by default if you aren't aware of this ahead of time.

[Anonymous No.2465937]

>>2465909
>>2465914
>>2465928
>>2465930
Don't reply to pasta threads.

[Anonymous No.2465953]

The game isn't really based on any of that, most of it relies on surprise and atmosphere.

[Anonymous No.2465956]

>>2465930
That's not a glitch, that's a fucking brilliant twist.

[Anonymous No.2465959]

Stop saying mean things about this special snowflake of a game! I'll cry ;-;

[Anonymous No.2465963]

>>2465956
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpigjnKl7nI

[Anonymous No.2465964]

>>2465956
I get that you're joking around, but I'll clarify for OP's sake that it absolutely IS a glitch.

[Anonymous No.2465965]

>>2465897
Earthbound is pretty much my favourite game of all time, but I do agree that mechanically speaking, it feels a bit antiquated compared to other mid-90's SNES RPGs. Apart from the fact that you can see enemies before you fight them, and the health rolling down like an odometer, the gameplay pretty much feels like a NES RPG.

To be honest though, none of that bothers me. Does anybody *really* play turn-based JRPGs for the gameplay, anyway? Most of them (at least, the well known ones like Final Fantasy) don't require any thought and, after a brief stint of grinding at the beginning, get easier and easier as they progress until it becomes "press A repeatedly to win".

I guess I can't speak for everybody else, but I personally only enjoy JRPGs for the atmosphere and storyline, and the fact that in the 90's JRPGs usually had, in my opinion, better graphics and music than most games of the time.

[Anonymous No.2465997]

>>2465897
I have never played an RPG that had replay value. So... that's kind of a shit argument. If you finish the story... you finish the story. I'm not going to read a book 3 times in a row.

[Anonymous No.2466003]

>>2465965
>Does anybody *really* play turn-based JRPGs for the gameplay, anyway

this, so much.

i'm just waiting for someone to start saying how FF6/chrono trigger/other JRPGs from the era had "deeper" gameplay so i can have a good hearty laugh.

[Anonymous No.2466007]

>>2466003
everything has deeper gameplay than Dragon Quest and its clones.

[Anonymous No.2466016]

>>2466007

>equipping esters is "deep" gameplay

my sides

[Anonymous No.2466029]

>>2465897
I swear to god Im going to drop Mother 3.
Im at Chapter 3 and this is just ridiculous.
Who thought its good idea to put something this boring?
God dammit.

[Anonymous No.2466039]

>>2465897
Pretty much, welcome the the beautiful world of fanbases.
>>2465965
>Does anybody *really* play turn-based JRPGs for the gameplay, anyway?
Yes
>Most of them (at least, the well known ones like Final Fantasy) don't require any thought and, after a brief stint of grinding at the beginning, get easier and easier as they progress until it becomes "press A repeatedly to win".
Just like most platformers,WRPG, shooters, sidescrollers, survival horror, adventure games, sport games or action games?

Even games with relatively high difficulty curve get progressively easier the more you play them, SHMUPS for instance have a lot of gems but also an unbelievably high number of shovelware tier crap, 90% of any kind of games in any genre are entry level.

Thinking that certain genres have "deeper" gameplay than others is just a completely biased and unfounded point used by retards who want to stroke their egos over their taste, Wizardry, Vampire Savior and Gradius games are very challenging and deep games in their own rights but it's also true that they need completely different and non complementary skillsets in order to be played, saying that one is deeper than the other is utter bullshit.

[Anonymous No.2466056]

>>2466007
>he doesn't understand how to use debuffs
>has probably never played a dq game

[ghgh No.2466057]

dammmmmmmmmm

[Anonymous No.2466061]

>>2466039
I don't agree. Platformers and action games usually get harder as they progress. Super Mario 3 starts off easy but can get pretty challenging by world 8. The Legend of Zelda starts off pretty simple but later dungeons can get really hard. That's kind of a big point of game design, you introduce more challenge as the game progresses and the player becomes more accustomed with the mechanics.

Most JRPGs I've played (in fairness, I'll admit I've only really played the most popular ones) are the opposite start off quite difficult (some 8-bit RPGs like Dragon Quest and Phantasy Star pretty much need an hour of solid grinding before you can stop getting your ass handed to you) and become ridiculously easy by around halfway through. In games like Final Fantasy, the "grey magic" type of spells, like sleep, frog etc are pretty much useless when you'd rather spend that turn doing a real attack. The only challenging parts are bosses.

I'm not trying to "stroke my ego over my taste" or anything. JRPGs are my favourite genre and Earthbound is my favourite game. But it can't be denied that Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger and many other turn based RPGs just aren't that strong in the gameplay department. I just don't think that that happens to matter very much when judging how fun it actually is to play. Just because I think Earthbound is mechanically weak, doesn't mean I don't think it's an awesome game.

[Anonymous No.2466080]

>>2466061
>Super Mario 3 starts off easy but can get pretty challenging by world 8
By the time you get to world 8 you should have already a gazillion lives before getting a game over in any point in the game.
>The Legend of Zelda starts off pretty simple but later dungeons can get really hard.
So was the Ice cave or Temple of Chaos in FF where most enemies shut down or instakill your party and there's nothing you can do about it, not even if you grind.
>The only challenging parts are bosses.
Oh please, most bosses in the games you mentioned are pitiful and only hard because you've been already battered by waves of random encounters before getting to them.

Not to mention, you were the one who needed to grind to beat the games, grinding in the first place is the sign that you haven't really got the game's system down.
Haven't you thought about that, beating games without grinding? Because it's completely feasible you know, just like I don't really need to rely on memorization or reflexes or vice versa.

I'd suggest you to try out sandbox JRPGs like Metal Max or games without levels and see for yourself whether grinding really is the smartest choice like a lot of people say, because it usually turns out that those people really didn't give a damn about learning the game and just bruteforced through it, which I seriously don't think is your case considering the way you write.
Expand your horizons a bit.

[Anonymous No.2466108]

>>2466080
I don't actually grind in most RPGs. It's only some of the 8-bit ones where I've found grinding is required. And that's not even a "Well you just don't understand the system" thing, I mean in Phantasy Star when you begin with no skills and like 10 HP, there's nothing you can do except hang around the starting town until you're like level 5-7 and don't have pitiful health. In most 16-bit RPGs I've played, just making sure you don't run from battles is all that's necessary to be overpowered enough to win every battle from just using the standard "Attack" option by about halfway through.

I mean, I get that Final Fantasy 6, for example, has a ton of different ways to play. I know that Gau, while generally pretty crappy at first, can become easily the best character if you teach him Rage abilities on the Veldt. But I do feel like these games could have done more to encourage different ways of play, because in FF6 (I'm only using FF6 as an example here because it's what I've played most recently and it's still fresh in my mind, sorry, I know this is an Earthbound thread) it seems like it's actually much easier to brute force your way through the game on autopilot than to actually put thought into what you're doing.

By the end of my run on FF6, after doing sidequests and stuff, Terra could cast Ultima 4 times per turn and it would only cost her 5MP, and she was immune to all physical attacks. Sabin could deal 16 attacks per turn. I beat Kefka without him even putting up a fight, just using those two as attackers. (The other two party members, Celes and Cyan were basically healers to keep Terra and Sabin alive.)

>Metal Max

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.As I've said, I've only really played the popular RPGs that get mentioned on /vr/ a lot, and those are what my opinions are based on. I'm always willing to look at RPGs I've never heard of.

[Anonymous No.2466124]

>>2466061
>In games like Final Fantasy, the "grey magic" type of spells, like sleep, frog etc are pretty much useless when you'd rather spend that turn doing a real attack
It's the curse of jRPGs

Status effect spells are completely useless on normal battles, and everything that you might want to cast "poison" or "sleep" on is immune

[Anonymous No.2466126]

>>2466108
>I'm always willing to look at RPGs I've never heard of.
I highly recommend SaGa Frontier.

[Anonymous No.2466130]

>>2466126
Is SaGa the one where the levelling system is similar to Final Fantasy 2? Where you level up skills/stats as they're used, rather than having an overall character level? I played FF2 (GBA version, where it's not horribly broken) and it is one of my favourite FF games, so I'll have to give it a go.

[Anonymous No.2466135]

>>2466124
That's something Dragon Quest does right, hell, sleep is even bordering on OP territory in some of those games.

[Anonymous No.2466145]

>>2466130
The GB game is a SaGa game, so yes. If you like that, you'll love Frontier -- the first one on PS1. Fun as hell, tough as nails bosses, and almost completely nonlinear.

[Anonymous No.2466160]

>>2466130
Oh well, if FF2 is one of your favorites definitely play SaGa, that's FF2 mixed with JoJo on steroids.

Come in the SaGa Thread and check the OP Pastebin, there's a lot of stuff there to help you out, a new anon is always welcome.

[Anonymous No.2466748]

>>2466039
No, what he said was completely right. What you said makes no sense. Especially:

>Just like most platformers,WRPG, shooters, sidescrollers, survival horror, adventure games, sport games or action games?

[Anonymous No.2466962]

>>2466124
They're good in earthbound

[Anonymous No.2466965]

>>2466080
Mind throwing a few more sandbox JRPGs titles? I'm interested too.

[Anonymous No.2466973]

>>2466124
Not in FF4, certainly not in FF4:TAY, and definitely not in any Dragon Quest game.

[Anonymous No.2466998]

>>2466039

Many JRPGs are incredibly shallow in terms of gameplay. Most of them require grinding, which isn't a problem except that it's incredibly repetitive and boring. Once you've figured out the best places to grind and farm and the best set of actions to use, it doesn't make sense to do it any other way unless you're deliberately making the game more difficult for yourself. Sure there are some tough bosses, but most of the time in JRPGs you're fighting regular monsters. The core gameplay is repeating same optimal actions over and over with no variation and no challenge.

In other genres, like action games, for example, many of them are challenging because it's always possible to make mistakes and lose due to inattention, etc. Many require memorizing and figuring patterns in order to progress. You need experience and practice to do successful playthroughs. In adventure and puzzle games you need to think.

Yeah, JRPGs have some of the elements of other genres, but the core gameplay is still fighting against bazilliions of monsters over and over using one optimal set of actions. Whatever deep elements JRPGs have are overshadowed by what you're doing most of the time, which is fighting against endless hordes of monsters.

[Anonymous No.2467186]

>>2466998
Yes. A JRPG is basically an interactive movie.

People who try to think extremely hard about it and equip exactly the right things at exactly the right time are 1) only guessing and 2) not really playing it right. You're supposed to grind, that's part of it. If you want to be that "special runs" type of guy, that's cool too, but don't act like you're playing it in a superior way.

A good JRPG has some new interesting enemies, new attacks, new ways of defeating them, magic and things like that, in each new area. Then as you get used to the enemies and bored of them, you should soon be on to the next area. As we know this doesn't always happen.

[Anonymous No.2467190]

>>2467186
yep, ironically sotn is the best jrpg ever made but I digress

[Anonymous No.2467210]

just making a shameless plug about mystic ark:
>2 possible mcs with different stats, 6 different characters to form a party with, 7 different "arks" you can fuse with your characters for stat boosts
>quirky and weird world building based on fairy tales
>actually thought out puzzles
>game punishes you for over leveling by boosting the final bosses
>pokémon-like minigame
>awesome music

I think it's one of the best designed jeypergers on the snes.

[Anonymous No.2467228]

>>2466016
Espers
As in ESPer, one who can harness and control Extra Sensory Perception.

[Anonymous No.2467351]

>>2467190
If we are going to call SotN a jrpg because you can raise your stats and have different weapons we might as well call Devil May Cry a jrpg. You can also raise your stats and equip different weapons.

For fuck sakes we call Ys a jrpg and the stat mechanics in that are barely above devil may cry.

[Manly Man No.2467379]

>>2466973
The DS remake of IV is to the point where not using debuffs on the enemies is damn near a death sentence, considering how hard some of them can be. Slow is pretty much mandatory on each and every one of them, and having a character with Cry is a huge boon.

[Anonymous No.2469819]

it's startlingly mediocre

[Anonymous No.2472332]

>>2466965
SaGa games are another popular pseudo sandbox series, though Metal Max does that aspect better, Tengai Makyou Zero kiiinda does it as well but gives strictly divides the world into regions and you have to complete the main story quests to have access to other regions.
>>2467210

Mystic Ark is great but it suffers from the Enix DQ curse so deep down it's really just another DQ clone in terms of meta, game is too easy and revolves too much around levels and stats instead of proper strategy and clever use of abilities, it mostly suffers from the very same problems that 7nth Saga had unfortunately such as getting our ass handed to you until you reach the next shop, buy a new batch of equipment and restate the status quo of you kicking everyone's shit until the next new batch of monsters, it also doesn't have the Rival feature which is a damn shame if you ask me.
The PC balance is absolute bonkers and doesn't really promote varied gameplay even with the Ark gimmick as in early and midgame Lux, Reeshine and Meisia dominate the party meta and in the endgame they make the rest of the character even more irrelevant because they get their last and amazingly OP abilities whereas people like Kamiwoo are left with a bunch of shitty spells and questionable stats. Though none of this matters if you bother grinding to level 70 or so because then you're technically immortal as not even the final boss can outrun you in a damage race.

On the bright side, the graphics and music are downright amazing, character design is great stuff thanks to based Akihiko Yamada and the worlds and lore are genuinely interesting, especially for the time it was made, lots of stuff to do but there's rarely any reason to go back to a world you visited before unfortunately.

If it only had a better meta and balance it would be pretty great, but considering it's a game where no PC ever speaks, little to no replayability and with such a simple story there's really not much going for it honestly.

[Anonymous No.2472416]

>>2466124
It's not true. People are just too lazy to use status effects on bosses. The truth is that many of the bosses in FF6 are vulnerable to status effects. Number 024 is vulnerable to Sleep. MagiMaster is vulnerable to Bserk. White Dragon is vulnerable to Mute. Dirt Drgn is vulnerable to poison. And so on.

[Anonymous No.2472440]

>>2472416
This may be the case but in nearly every case it's more effective to attack or use an offensive spell. FF6 is a great game but the battle system isn't balanced very well and is broken pretty easily.

[Anonymous No.2472470]

>>2465897
I have replayed the game and beat it over a dozen times. I find it enjoyable each time I play it. I think you might want to re-think using subjective points as "facts".

[Anonymous No.2472568]

>>2472416
>People are just too lazy
That's the problem.
When people think that wasting time fighting the same monsters over and over again instead of just actually planning your party and organizing shit is the best way to play RPGs there's really no point in arguing.