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/vr/ - Retro Games


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File: 234 KB, 1825x1023, SFA3-on-N64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2451603 No.2451603 [Reply] [Original]

Was the N64, in conjunction with the RAM expansion pak, powerful enough to push the sprites on Street Fighter Alpha 3? I know the sound would take a big hit in quality. Hell, a cut down version of Alpha 2 ran OK on the SNES.

I always found it odd that there was not a Street Fighter game on the N64. It was on practically everything else. You'd think Capcom would have released Street Fighter EX at the very least.

>> No.2451606

>>2451603
why are you not using the dpad

>> No.2451635
File: 28 KB, 280x198, WonderPJ2146.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2451635

N64 was capable of good 2D, and games like MK Trilogy and KI Gold are, essentially, 2D fighting games, although they don't have SF-style sprites.
I assume it could be at least as good or maybe even better than the PS1 version, but probably not as good as the Saturn version that uses the 4 RAM cart.

>> No.2451642

Street Fighter EX would have been more fitting.

>> No.2451645

Play it in Saturn

>> No.2451685

>>2451603
I think the texture cache problem might have had something to do with it, you had to splice up your entire sprite sheet into small chunks (forgot the exact dimensions) and load it quickly into the cache, which made animating extremely complex.

>> No.2451696
File: 56 KB, 540x307, superman-64-540x307.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2451696

>I always found it odd that there was not a Street Fighter game on the N64
I'm glad Nintendo put their foot down and said no more 2d games. They cared about quality titles only and it showed.

>> No.2451704

>>2451696
>>2451603
>>2451685

I can only think of ONE 2D scrolling game in the entire N64 library. And that did not have large sprites or complex animations. The system was built to push polys. I believe there to be a technical reason why it can't do full 2D sidescrollers or fighting games.

So I do believe it's just not possible on the N64.

>>2451642
>Street Fighter EX would have been more fitting.

Yes. You're right. Why didn't they do that?

>> No.2451709

>>2451704
>I can only think of ONE 2D scrolling game in the entire N64 library. And that did not have large sprites or complex animations. The system was built to push polys. I believe there to be a technical reason why it can't do full 2D sidescrollers or fighting games.
I always wondered why Nintendo was still supporting the SFC in Japan after launching the N64. A lot of late SFC releases like Rockman & Forte, Marvelous and Fire Emblem 5 could've been N64 games instead.
>Yes. You're right. Why didn't they do that?
Maybe Capcom probably didn't care much for the N64. There's a reason why their ports of Resident Evil 2 and Mega Man Legends was outsourced.

>> No.2451716

>>2451704
There was no technical reason why it couldn't do 2d. It was a decision made by Nintendo that was forced on developers.

>> No.2451884
File: 40 KB, 337x457, 20182_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2451884

What about Rakuga Kids? Was that traditional sprite based 2D?

https://youtu.be/M20LsSYUEAw

>> No.2451887

>>2451884

Rakuga Kids is good, and underappreciated, probably because it was never released in america, as well as the fact it looks like a kid's game, but it's actually a pretty nifty fighting game and a showcase of what the N64 can do with 2D sprite animation.

However, Rakuga Kids was also a game developed exclusively for the N64, not a port of an arcade game.

>> No.2452524

>>2451603
>Was the N64, in conjunction with the RAM expansion pak, powerful enough to push the sprites on Street Fighter Alpha 3?
Of course. There's a Street Fighter Alpha 3 port on the fucking GBA.

And yes, the GBA port isn't arcade perfect. Regardless, the N64 could have gotten a very good port.

>> No.2452613

>>2451884

Nice animations.

>> No.2452615

>>2452524

N64 is some weird, complex system, and it's architecture biases it towards 3D. It's just not worth the time or effort to port it, when the PlayStation and Saturn exist.

>> No.2452620

>>2452615

Could be a dev. Either way just ignore him.

>> No.2452623

>>2451884

Is there a list of 2D fighting games for the N64?

The only ones I can think of:

>Rakuga Kids
>Clayfighter 63 1/3

>> No.2452627

>>2452623
MK Trilogy.

>> No.2452636

>>2452615
This is 100% horseshit. Nintendo did not want 2d games being made on their 3d system period. It had nothing to do with hardware.

>> No.2452681

>>2452636
That decision just seems so bizarre though. 2D sprite based fighters from Capcom and SNK were still wildly popular in that time period.

>> No.2452706

>>2452681
It's not bizarre, it's Nintendo. The Playstation wasn't made for 2d either, but there are tons of 2d games. The difference was that Sony saw dollar signs either way and didn't give a shit.

>> No.2452709

>>2451704
>Yes. You're right. Why didn't they do that?
EX1 and 2 are made for arcade hardware based on the PS1, porting it to the PS1 was always in the cards.

I also don't see much love from Japanese developers for the N64

>> No.2452806

>>2451603
Nostalgia kiddies on /v/ will tell you otherwise, but the N64 was utter SHITE both in games and in hardware. I say this as someone who thinks that Sony is the scourge of the industry and Nintendo was only trying to prevent the modern gaming industry from happening.

>> No.2453014

>>2452627
>>2452623

List of fully 2D games:

>Rakuga Kids
>Clayfighter 63 1/3
>MK Trilogy
>Yoshi's Story
>Bust A Move 2
>Dr. Mario 64
>Bust A Move '99
>Midway's Greatest Hits
>Worms Armageddon
>South prk: Chef's Luv Shack
>Rampage: World Tour
>Rampage 2: The Great Escape
>Pokemon Puzzle League
>The New Tetris
>Namco Museum 64
>Starcraft 64
>Bangai-O

That's the list of what I can find. That's not a lot at all, and some of those are straight up ports of older games.

>> No.2453036

>>2451603
The reason is because a full port of the game would have required a high capacity, expensive cartridge, reducing profit margins.

>> No.2453097

>>2451884

Those aren't sprites in the traditional sense. Those are flat 3D models being swapped out rapidly to form animation frames. Think Paper Mario.

>> No.2453260

>>2452706
No, actually that's very untrue. Sony required nearly every game to use at least some amount of 3D and the only exceptions were inferior 2D fighter ports. For years games like Arc the Lad were denied release outside Japan because they were entirely 2D based. Google it bitch.

>> No.2453351

>>2453097
This. There has to be a hardware based reason that the N64 had so few games with traditional hand drawn sprites. Hopefully someone pops into this thread that knows a lot about the N64's architecture and can explain why.

>> No.2453354

>>2453351
Yeah, it's called a cartridge.

>> No.2453364
File: 789 KB, 500x375, huc1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2453364

>Street Fighter with that controller

>> No.2453415

>>2452636
>Nintendo did not want 2d games being made on their 3d system period
But they made a 2D game for their system

>> No.2453632
File: 1.01 MB, 2800x7289, Nintendo 64 - Rakuga Kids - Mamezo Inuzo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2453632

>>2453097

Are you sure?

>> No.2453653

>>2453364

What about it? It has a d-pad, and 6 face buttons.
I agree the Saturn pad is the ideal pad for fighters, but N64 is better suited than, say, the PS1 controller which has an awful d-pad and only 4 face buttons.

>> No.2453771

>>2453632
NO NIGGA that's not how it works

>> No.2453779

>>2453771

Just asking, because the "sprites" (or whatever you wanna call them) on Rakuga Kids look very smooth and fluidly animated.
Anyway, didn't the PS1 also use the same trick? I mean the whole "flat 3D models" thing.
But then I wonder how did Konami manage to make a game as fluid as Rakuga Kids, and Capcom couldn't make any decent 2D port on the PS1.

>> No.2453795

The CPS2 maximum ROM capacity was 40 MB, so ROM capacity wouldn't be an issue as the maximum N64 cartridge capacity was 64 MB. Being cartridge-based would also presumably mean that you could load things in and out of the memory on the fly like the original arcade board did, rather than having to load everything into the memory beforehand like the PS1 did, which is why its CPS2 ports always had to have their animation chopped down (or in the case of the Marvel VS series, tag team features removed).

>> No.2453813

>>2453779
The fact it uses 3d models with textures on them does not make it more difficult to have smooth animation. Capcom simply uses less frames of animation for each sprite. At any rate, it's easy ot see the N64 uses the same trick. Simply go into project64 and turn on wireframe mode.

>> No.2453864

What does SFA3 have, graphically, that Killer Instict Gold doesn't? I'd expect both the frame rate and total number of frames to be in the same ballpark.

>> No.2453892

>>2451603
Possibly because the profit margin was too small, compared to the amount of re-work they'd need to put in the port.
Remember, carts cost fuckton, and the N64 didn't have many users who were the type of hardcore players that still bought 2d fighting games.

TECHNICALLY, the system could've handled SF Alpha 3, easily arcade perfect, but it would've cost a lot to make. Plus add in whatever difficulties Nintendo would've thrown in their way. Plus whether the dev kits even had a suitable 2d mode (like allowing to turn off filtering, that kind of stuff), and the cost/size of the cartridges.

>>2451685
>I think the texture cache problem might have had something to do with it, you had to splice up your entire sprite sheet into small chunks (forgot the exact dimensions) and load it quickly into the cache, which made animating extremely complex.

CPS2 already had all graphics tile based, so that would not have been a problem for SFA3, at least.

>>2453014
Add in Puyo Puyo Sun to that.

>> No.2453904

>>2453097
>Those aren't sprites in the traditional sense. Those are flat 3D models being swapped out rapidly to form animation frames.

Every system that uses framebuffer based rendering is drawing "flat 3d". As a matter of fact even the most modern videocards are ultimately rendering flat 3d, since they have to draw the final graphics to a 2d plane, ie. your tv/monitor.

The only difference is how much mathematical accuracy the hardware has.

N64 could do 2d just fine. The only limitations were:
- cartridge space
- cartridge cost
- development cost
- Nintendo Super Dickery
- no product spacing. your 2d game would be competing with Super Mario 64, Shadows of the Empire, Zelda, Pokémon, etc.

>> No.2454186

>>2451606
>tfw no one answered

>> No.2454190
File: 251 KB, 2736x1534, n64-gaming.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454190

>>2454186
OP here. I photoshopped a pic of some guy playing Mario 64 into the OP image. Here's the original.

>> No.2454251

>>2453904
That is pseudotechnical nonsense. Please, we want real answers.

It's hard for me to imagine the N64 not being able to do a reasonable game like this at SOME scaled down level. I'm not a big fan of the Street Fighter series myself, had a blast playing it on the SNES/genesis but never got into it like many people are.

>> No.2454260

>>2453097
cool story bro, considering how good the models on N64 looked

>> No.2454303
File: 25 KB, 400x240, Street Fighter Alpha 3 [NTSC-U] [SLUS-00821]-0000.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454303

>>2453097
>Those aren't sprites in the traditional sense. Those are flat 3D models being swapped out rapidly to form animation frames. Think Paper Mario.
Looks 2d enough for me

>> No.2454364 [DELETED] 

>>2454303
Are you claiming that is an N64 image?

>> No.2454385

>>2451603
Probably not.

Remember the faces in Goldeneye? Textures on the N64 had to buffer though 4kb meaning if an images was even 4kb in size, which was small as shit even then, you could only load one at the time.

That is why many of the N64 games have that style to them that they do. Its basically they are just colored off the graphic palette with a flat color not a texture.

Something super simple may pass by for instance the few "2D" games the N64 had, but putting high detailed textures it just wouldn't be able to load them. And its 2D trickier would likely make hit boxes too inaccurate for a good fighter since it would be like mashing cubes together unlike say Smash were it just uses 3D models and their hitboxes.

N64 was simply designed too poorly for it. It had a GPU comparable to PCs when it came out, but the memory of a goldfish and its speed at loading images was comparable to a Commodore 64.

>> No.2454417

>>2454190
thats why, makes more sense.

>> No.2454427
File: 1.98 MB, 450x235, bangaio.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454427

>>2454385

I remember the faces in Goldeneye, they looked good for the time, something like that wasn't possible on the other consoles (see MGS's faces for example).

Anyway, I dunno. I think the N64 would have been able to make 2D at least as good as the PS1 (if not better, and without loading times).
Bangai-O is 2D, has a shitload of action on screen and it's 60fps iirc. I don't think making SFA3 would be impossible on the N64, but it would require too much work and would be expensive for Capcom who just shat out the PS1 port for the west, and gave Japan the good port on the Saturn. They just didn't care for a N64 port of it, too much work for little profit.

Basically I agree with these 2 anons:
>>2453904
>>2453892

>> No.2454793
File: 889 KB, 640x355, resized_09d1b7417cfebf7133d0e70dd2faee1d[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454793

>>2453653
I don't see reigning EVO champ playing Street Fighter with an N64 controller.

>> No.2454802

The N64 could outperform the PS1 in basically every way graphically... except having a large storage media to hold a bunch of/high quality textures and FMV/sound etc.

I was defiantly more powerful in 2D. The N64 with a fast optical drive would've been beast mode. For the time period... I sorta preferred cartridges. Made development more expensive, but game like Ocarina were still huge and it was shown games like RE2 would fit as well. Loading times for the PS1 REALLY sucked often times.

>> No.2454805

>>2454802
*It

>> No.2454812

>>2453351
The reason is that Nintendo had a policy of wanting only polygonal games at the time. That is why so few sprite games got made for it.

>> No.2454813

>>2454802
n64 generally had worse framerates, but these weren't very good on the ps1 either

>> No.2454830
File: 193 KB, 250x348, F-Zero_X_box_art.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454830

>>2454813
but often when that was the case, the N64 was pushing way more polygons on screen

60 frames per second with up to 30 vehicles on screen at the same time... did the PS1 have any 60fps 3D games?

>> No.2454842

>>2454830
internal section, most 3d fighters
oh don't get me wrong I think they both suck but all the useless bells and whistles on the default n64 microcode such as mipmapping and bilinear filtering made it have slightly worse performance than the ps1

>> No.2454856

>>2454842
for the time though, i think those bells and whistles made well produced N64 games look a step above the PS1

>> No.2454885

>>2454251
>That is pseudotechnical nonsense. Please, we want real answers.

What the hell do you mean by pseudotechnical nonsense?

yes, N64 could handle SFA3, but Capcoms budget could not handle porting it. That real enough of an answer?

>>2454385
The texture limit just means that they have to make the graphics tiled, and since the CPS2 hardware (that SFA3 was written for) already uses tiled graphics, this is a non issue.

>> No.2454895

>>2454802
An optical media based N64 would've been much weaker since they wouldn't be able to stream textures off the cart.

>> No.2454898

>all these people saying 2D fighters are impossible on the N64
>all these people who never heard of Rakugakids

>> No.2454901
File: 80 KB, 640x480, jones.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454901

For about 6 months after its introduction, the N64 was the most powerful graphics box on the planet... I think that's the only time a console exceeded what was available in the PC market.

Towards the end of it's life cycle it had some games that were super impressive.. like the Indian Jones game and Rouge Squadron etc. And e.g. the N64 MK4 absolutely crushed the PS1 port.

PS1 could barely handle Doom at the start, but eventually got a very good Quake 2 port. It's amazing what they squeezed out of that machine.

>> No.2454920
File: 27 KB, 540x405, 57573.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2454920

>>2454895
well, the N64 was designed around cartridge media... N64's graphics chip was capable of executing many more advanced and complex rendering techniques than its competitors. if it had been designed with CD in mind it's architecture obviously would've been different to optimize.

one would have to be lying to themselves to think any PS1 games were as clean and presentable as this

>> No.2454927

>>2454898
Also, MK trilogy was best on N64.

>> No.2454939

>>2454927
I've seen many comparisons on various Trilogy fan sites that come to the consensus that the PS1 got the better port overall. The N64 suffered from less frames of animation and worse AI (super cheap). Despite this, I did thoroughly enjoy the N64 version quite a bit before I had access to MAME :).

>> No.2455665

>>2454927
>Also, MK trilogy was best on N64.

Not sure if trolling.

MKT on N64 was a blurry mes with missing characters/music/stages.

>> No.2455669

>>2455665
Nevermind that the sound effects and voices sounded even more compressed than they were on the Super Nintendo.

>> No.2455694

>>2454793

yeah yeah, that was funny I remember that, but I'll take a N64 controller with 6 buttons and an actual d-pad over a PS controller for a fighting game.
Although ideally I'd take a Saturn or an arcade stick

>> No.2455695

>>2454939
>>2455665
The only advantage the N64 version of MK Trilogy had over the PS and SS versions was the fact that Shang Tsung's morphs didn't take a long time to work, the Endurance Rounds actually had you fighting pairs other than ninjas and Khameleon was a more interesting hidden character with an actual backstory than her male counterpart.

Combining both Sub-Zeros into one was pretty lame though.

>> No.2455698

>>2454901
>I think that's the only time a console exceeded what was available in the PC market.

Consoles had way better graphics back in the late 80s. PCs couldn't even do smooth scrolling.
This is not counting the Amiga, though, which curb stomped everything in that decade.


>>2454920
That's an emulator screenshot. The real hardware ran the game at less than 320x224. I think the most impressive thing in Conker was the amount of tiny details they shoved in, plus the great animation and the huge draw distance. Just that one intro scene could've been done on the friggin Saturn too.

>> No.2455709
File: 101 KB, 1280x720, shenmuestaurn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2455709

>>2454427
>I remember the faces in Goldeneye, they looked good for the time, something like that wasn't possible on the other consoles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

>> No.2455719

>>2455709

That was a tech demo in extremely tightly crafted environments not representative of actual gameplay on a dev system significantly more powerful than a consumer Saturn.

>> No.2455756

>>2455719
>on a dev system significantly more powerful than a consumer Saturn

Source? Pretty sure Suzuki said it was running on a stock Saturn without even the 4mb pack.

>> No.2456036

>>2454885
I mean you are totally mistaken in how you portrayed videocards as basically the same and how you say what really matters is "mathematical accuracy" which shows you really have no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.2456449
File: 584 KB, 840x1080, 635c497029c146b033f8f8393702574652105e5b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2456449

>>2455719
>citation needed

>> No.2456919 [DELETED] 
File: 98 KB, 320x240, street_fighter_64_mockup.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2456919

>>2454303
>>2454251

You know, what if Capcom played with N64 limitations and Nintendo's policy and instead of an arcade port of Street Fighter Alpha, they developed some sort of remixed game, like... "Street Fighter 64"? Simple 3D backgrounds, maybe some animation cut (characters wouldn't have to be exact matches to any version anyway), hitboxes and effects like fireballs being made of polygons instead of sprites (SFA3 on Playstation has polygonal hit effects, for instance)

It's not like it would bring tournament level gameplay, but people surely would appreciate it, as N64 had quite an odd selection of fighting games.

>>2451603
>Hell, a cut down version of Alpha 2 ran OK on the SNES.

I just don't understand how the music was so bland, with dull samples. SNES had already delivered Megaman X, Castlevania and all sorts of games with great soundtracks. Couldn't they at least use the Super SF2 soundfont?

>> No.2456938
File: 98 KB, 320x240, street_fighter_64_mockup.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2456938

>>2454303
>>2454251

You know, what if Capcom played with N64 limitations and Nintendo's policy and instead of an arcade port of Street Fighter Alpha, they developed some sort of remixed game, like... "Street Fighter 64"? Simple 3D backgrounds, maybe some animation cut (characters wouldn't have to be exact matches to any version anyway), hit sparks and effects like fireballs being made of polygons instead of sprites (SFA3 on Playstation has polygonal hit effects, for instance). We know Killer Instinct Gold isn't an exact port of Killer Instinct 2 and it worked.

It's not like it would bring tournament level gameplay, but people surely would appreciate it, as N64 had quite an odd selection of fighting games.

>>2451603 (OP)
>Hell, a cut down version of Alpha 2 ran OK on the SNES.

I just don't understand how the music was so bland, with dull samples. SNES had already delivered Megaman X, Castlevania and all sorts of games with great soundtracks. Couldn't they at least use the Super SF2 soundfont?

>> No.2456951

>>2455719
You're pulling that straight out of your fat ass, Saturn development units are pretty much 1:1 spec wise with the Saturn.

The Saturn is actually really capable hardware, surprise surprise.

>> No.2456954

>>2456951

Have you read the developer comments on Panzer Dragoon Zwei? Saturn was a nightmare to work on 3D.
It was a 2D powerhouse, but for 3D it's not that good.
Still, some devs (especially Sega themselves) were able to make some impressive stuff like Burning Rangers (which even has transparency effects), but all in all Saturn wasn't as good as N64 in terms of 3D.
The Shenmue tech demo looks impressive, but it's just that: a tech demo.

>> No.2457000

>>2455719
nope and nope

the environments are extremely low poly and once anything remotely more complex than an ordinary Saturn game is on screen, the framerate bottoms out
the scenes that run at a decent framerate don't look terribly much more complex than say, Burning Rangers or Panzer Dragoon Zwei, other than the really nice baked lighting making everything look tons better
the scene with the room at 2:55 looks wonderful, but there's clearly only about 30 polygons in view
also, there's no lighting whatsoever, everything is prebaked, all models are fullbright all the time)

with all that in mind, it's completely believable that this is on a stock Saturn, especially a late developed game, and especially with the framerate it runs at (seriously, it's really, really low)
It's impressive work, but pretty representative of what trying to do something this nice on the Saturn would entail: single digit framerates. Nothing else looks this nice on the machine because most games on it are aiming for at least a solid 20fps, and most other developers are struggling to get anything running on the system anyway because it's an architectural nightmare (the CPUs fucking climb on each other for RAM access, and the CPU caches are too small, for starters).

>> No.2457000,1 [INTERNAL] 

>>2457000
You do understand the saturn doesn't use "Polygons", in fact it used quadrilaterals.