let's talk about computer RPGs

File: 40 KB, 640x400, Eye_of_the_Beholder_-_DOS_-_Gameplay_1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat May 2 05:30:07 2015 No.2378746 [Reply] [Original]

let's talk about computer RPGs

Anonymous Sat May 2 05:36:01 2015 No.2378751

I tried Lands of Lore a few months ago, and I was kind of disappointed with the way it played. I was expecting EoTB with a more complex plot and a better presentation, but what I got instead was little to no character customization and bullshir difficulty peaks to spice it up. Without the raw customization of a good ol' D&D system, I just felt like the game slipped control from my hands whenever it wanted. Should they had sticked to EotB mechanics the game would have been so much better. Oh, well, at least the voice acting is good.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 05:39:02 2015 No.2378754 Is there beauty in this game?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 05:39:42 2015 No.2378757 >>2378751 I have been wanting to try out anvil of dawn it looks pretty cool.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 05:51:50 2015 No.2378768 >>2378757 After watching the Kikoskia LP, I realized it's pretty much Bag of Rocks: The Game

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 06:04:21 2015 No.2378776 Anybody played yendorian tales? >>2378751 EotB's customization was pretty useless however. Stats have had barely any impact on the mechanics.

Anonymous Sat May 2 06:47:13 2015 No.2378810

>>2378746
Now be honest with me: which is the very best real time 1st person dungeon crawler? If it's Grimrock or something just tell me. You don't have to defend /vr/'s honor by lying and saying that it's something old when it's not.

But if it really is something old then tell me that.

Thanks in advance.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 07:01:04 2015 No.2378819 >>2378810 Chaos Strikes Back and Demise Ascension. No contest really.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 07:04:21 2015 No.2378821 >>2378810 Dungeon Master, the first and the best. Proof: Grimrock being an almost 1:1 clone of it 25 years later.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 07:19:37 2015 No.2378837 >>2378819 Is Demise Ascension realtime? I only played the predecessors and they were automatically running turns.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 07:43:29 2015 No.2378864 >>2378746 I got into Daggerfall a bit more now but I wish it was less formulaic.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 07:45:02 2015 No.2378865 >>2378810 I haven't played a lot but the best I've had was definitely Wizardry 7 (MsDos version, ignore Gold version).

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 08:55:27 2015 No.2378925 >>2378865 Just because the sound for each attack has to be played in order for combat to resolve doesn't make it realtime. Play it for whole year it takes to complete and then come back to claim that it's the best.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 09:07:30 2015 No.2378939 What about Ishar ?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 09:21:22 2015 No.2378960 >>2378768 lol too true. i actually think Stonekeep was worse though. The amount of garbage you can throw at the poor ai is just ludicrous.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 09:22:59 2015 No.2378965 File: 80 KB, 638x469, 60005267.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] God tier has arrived

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 12:19:11 2015 No.2379206 >>2378810 The original Dungeon Master is the best. Grimrock is close, but its magic and class/leveling systems really hinder it.

Anonymous Sat May 2 12:37:17 2015 No.2379231

Do you guys actually make grid paper maps? I went through all of Eye of the Beholder 1 without a map and I got lost all the fucking time, but making a map square by square of those huge fucking dungeons is such a hassle I'd rather be miserable when trying to find the right way to go.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 12:56:24 2015 No.2379247 >>2379231 Depends on the game. I can usually keep track of where I'm going in my head, but at least in EoB I've played it so many times that the repetition helps a lot.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:06:17 2015 No.2379264 >>2379231 The original Dungeon Master is the only game of this kind with no automap I actually finished without any maps. Most of the time I start mapping right away, I don't feel it's this much of a hassle.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:11:08 2015 No.2379272 What's the best version of the first Dungeon Master?

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:18:16 2015 No.2379286

>>2378925
>Just because the sound for each attack has to be played in order for combat to resolve doesn't make it realtime.

the fuck are you even talking about? I didn't even mention anything in my post about sounds.

>Play it for whole year it takes to complete and then come back to claim that it's the best.

I said best "so far" from the few I played. can you even read?

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:24:29 2015 No.2379295

>>2379286
Wiz 7 is not a real time game. It also has an annoying feature that requires sounds to be turned off in order to get some speed up combat.
I really loathe this game and can't understand why it's praised so highly. The non linear nature works out very poorly and the game just ends up dragging on endlessly. Not to mention annoying features like the wandering NPCs.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:26:31 2015 No.2379301 >>2379286 Maybe you missed it, but the guy you responded to asked for the best "realtime" dungeon crawler.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:27:41 2015 No.2379304 File: 15 KB, 623x393, uukrul.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] When did automaps start being a thing?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:33:22 2015 No.2379314 I have always played Jrpgs and never played computer rpgs .... I really want to try them out, but what would be a good game to start with?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:36:47 2015 No.2379317 >>2379314 Ys

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:39:00 2015 No.2379319 >>2379314 I would say Fallout but you could just go down the list until you find something that grabs you: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:40:44 2015 No.2379326 >>2379317 Ys is just a fucking action with a very basic level up system tacked on. You might as well call Devil May Cry an rpg since you can grind for healing stars and you can raise your max mana.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:42:46 2015 No.2379332 >>2379326 he was joking

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:43:47 2015 No.2379335 >>2379317 >yes >wise >ease How the hell do you say that

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:44:10 2015 No.2379339

>>2378751
Ya, Lands of Lore has great presentation but generally is more of a beginner FPDC; not that it's exactly a walk in the park, but it's a game I would definitely recommend for anyone who wants to get into the genre. Besides the simplified gameplay it is rather nice.

>>2378810
Dungeon Master.

>>2379272
If you just want to play it, you might wanna go with one of the clones. They play exactly like the original but run natively on modern platforms.
http://www.dungeon-master.com/index.htm
If you're really tryna emulate though I'd go with the Atari ST original

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:45:10 2015 No.2379342 >>2379335 ease

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:46:52 2015 No.2379348 File: 96 KB, 640x400, Captive_006.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Who Captive here?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:48:39 2015 No.2379352 >>2379314 Fallout is probably a good first one, it will introduce you to character customization without overwhelming you. In general this list >>2379319 is pretty good, but maybe don't try the really old stuff like Wizardry or Ultima just yet.

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:50:36 2015 No.2379354
File: 8 KB, 640x400, telen.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Telengard, one of the first (if not THE first) graphical RPG's. It doesn't get much more oldschool than this.

The game is simplistic and probably won't hold your attention for very long, but it's an interesting piece of history.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:51:01 2015 No.2379356 >>2378837 Well that's essentially what makes it realtime. Dungeon Master can also be looked at as having "automatic turns" when you think about it, I think that's how it was envisioned in the design docs actually or maybe I'm just remembering things

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:53:18 2015 No.2379362 >>2379348 Man, old PC games UI artists have a special place in hell waiting for them.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:54:03 2015 No.2379363 >>2379335 Rhymes with grease, lease, fleece, peace

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:54:52 2015 No.2379365

>>2379314
depends what you are looking for lots of first person dungeon crawls but lots have different combat systems like eye of the beholder then some have 2d combat screens like pool of radiance or real time combat in first person like in ultima underworld or daggerfall. Then you have top down view more traditional style rpgs like ultima and dark sun shattered lands.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:54:58 2015 No.2379367 >>2379295 >>2379301 oh nevermind then. I didn't even see the word real time for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:56:02 2015 No.2379370 >>2379354 I made a thread to get /vr/ to play that a while ago, one anon had quiet the impressive character after a few days.

Anonymous Sat May 2 13:56:54 2015 No.2379373

>>2379304
>When did automaps start being a thing?
Good question. Ultima 3 (or was it 4? don't remember) dungeons were possibly the first ones.

>>2379314
World of Xeen. The wackiness of the graphics and simplistic no-frills superfast gameplay makes it a great transitional game from JRPGs.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 13:58:38 2015 No.2379375 >>2379335 ice

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:19:13 2015 No.2379406 File: 3 KB, 320x200, svAnon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379370 Yeah, I remember that thread. It's easy to break the game if you savescum; the game is basically designed around dicking you over with random traps and high-level monsters.

Anonymous Sat May 2 14:31:36 2015 No.2379424

>>2379406
I think you can work it out even without the save stuff. You just need to get lucky with the thrones to get high stats. Saving just means you can reload instead of accepting a stat loss.
What I liked was that enemies chase after you after you flee (shown as the @ symbol on top of the screen) and you need to shake them off. I've never seen that mechanic in another game with random encounters.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:33:13 2015 No.2379428 >>2379373 Ultima 3 had pry crystals that allowed you to see the map but it didn't consider what you had uncovered so far. Might and Magic 2 and Bard's Tale 3 had a real mapping feature.

Anonymous Sat May 2 14:40:47 2015 No.2379441

Fuck, Baldur's Gate's walking was too slow. So I just used the teleport cheat to go long distances that I already covered.
Same thing with buffing up a lot of stats using spawned manuals since battles were slow.

With the inventory, I hope Beamdog adds a take-all option for the interquel. I have spent more time organizing loot than progressing through the story.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:52:41 2015 No.2379459 >>2379428 Ultima IV did the same as U3. So these don't count.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:54:25 2015 No.2379461 File: 179 KB, 868x1219, 1385152971933.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379441 You are scum. Spawned manuals? Fucking disgusting. >walking too slow. Okay, yeah.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:54:47 2015 No.2379463 >>2379441 >Baldur's Gate's walking was too slow You can configure that.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:55:54 2015 No.2379467 >>2379441 I haven't played many CRPGs where I didn't start doing stuff like this to save time and my sanity. Forgive me, I am weak willed.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 14:56:09 2015 No.2379469 >>2379428 Didn't the pry crystals only reveal a small area around you?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 15:01:34 2015 No.2379480 File: 11 KB, 640x400, ultima_001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379469 The levels weren't that big.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 15:05:08 2015 No.2379484 >>2379373 Ultima 4 didn't have automaps. Not in the IBM version, at least.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 15:15:42 2015 No.2379505 >>2379463 How and where? Yes, I am scum because D&D 2nd was broken anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 16:03:22 2015 No.2379608 File: 706 KB, 1264x1832, Daggerfall dungeons.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This pic sums up my experiences playing Daggerfall, but it also works for Telengard.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 16:19:24 2015 No.2379642 >>2379608 >Quest for Glory 2.jpg

Anonymous Sat May 2 16:26:09 2015 No.2379652

>>2379608
I know that feel. I'm stuck in such a goddamn dungeon right now in Daggerfall.

fuck's sake. I advise to go buy Mark and Recall (or it was just Recall I don't remember) spells at the mage guild and cast that shit at the dungeon entry door.

so then you can at least get the shit inside the dungeon and be back outside right after.

Anonymous Sat May 2 16:42:04 2015 No.2379675

>>2379608
Are the poor generation procedures the reason why the dungeons in Telengard are so large? I can't fathom why somebody would think 200x200 sized levels are a good idea. You may as well go all out to 255x255 and instead of merely 50 levels you can make 63 or even 255 to get the most out of your 8 bit integers.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 17:11:17 2015 No.2379721 File: 67 KB, 798x598, bgbg_01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379505 In the same menu you configure graphics and shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 2 18:40:46 2015 No.2379908 File: 70 KB, 640x400, 92_4a584d70e978e.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] what are some games similar to dark sun shattered lands?

Anonymous Sat May 2 19:20:10 2015 No.2379986

>>2379362
true. captive isn't a really difficult game (aside from being impossible to actually beat) but i had the most trouble just learning how to navigate the fucking ui. i did like that the game was "framed" by showing you that the game screen was just a suitcase display for controlling the robots that are roaming around the galaxy trying to find you and free you

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 00:14:49 2015 No.2380468 i am currently playing return to krondor and nox any similar games in terms of graphics and combat systems?

Anonymous Sun May 3 00:15:25 2015 No.2380469

>>2379342
No.
>>2379363
Much closer but still no.
>>2379375
Giggles are being had.
>>2379335
Rhyming wise it's between the letter E and the word piss. If you can't be arsed trying to figure out a compound pronounciation (you ineloquent peasent) then you could go the "rhymes with geece" way. (You lazy cunt.)

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:17:30 2015 No.2380652 So I decided to try out Wizardry starting with VI. How do I stop my guys from being killed by rats? And also how do I get them to actually hit things?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:19:52 2015 No.2380656 >>2379908 They had a bunch of TSR games like that. Games like champions of Kiryn or unlimited adventures

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:26:26 2015 No.2380664 >>2380652 The common way is to get a bard and spam sleep with the lute they start with. You're attack skills rise as you attack so hitting is a matter off time.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:35:12 2015 No.2380676 >>2378746 >"let's talk about computer RPGs" >posts a dungeon crawler with almost 0 roleplaying in it outside of combat statistics

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:45:10 2015 No.2380692 File: 19 KB, 320x200, 58781-hired-guns-dos-screenshot-lots-to-dos.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379362

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 02:57:27 2015 No.2380713 >>2380676 >dungeon crawlers aren't rpgs >"I actually have to fight the dragon instead of talk my way out of it? WORST GAME EVER MADE"

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 04:44:13 2015 No.2380819 >>2380469 >i'm the fucking noam chomsky of pronouncing nonsense words

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 08:32:47 2015 No.2380941 File: 2.66 MB, 320x240, EOTB - Dran Draggore FYIAD.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 08:37:19 2015 No.2380945 >>2380676 literally every video game rpg ever

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 08:41:53 2015 No.2380947 >>2378810 Grimrock 2

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 09:15:09 2015 No.2380984 >>2380652 The start in Wiz 6 is fucking ass. You have to use a bard, sleep spell abuse or savescum your way through.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 12:16:48 2015 No.2381174 >>2379272 The snes version has environmental sound effects which is kinda nice.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 12:17:09 2015 No.2381175 >>2379608 Replace the buildings with telepads and it's Phantasy Star II

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 12:26:55 2015 No.2381190 File: 13 KB, 640x400, dildo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] RIP, Dildo. Done in by a boobytrapped chest on level 3 of the dungeon.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 13:28:56 2015 No.2381250 >>2381190 ahh rip m8, you had some decent gear too

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 14:23:25 2015 No.2381331 >>2380676 Because roleplaying in a singleplayer game is for autists. If you want a proper /vr/ roleplaying experience, play a MUD.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 14:27:40 2015 No.2381335 >>2378754 I'm more curious to know if there are any actual Beholders.

Anonymous Sun May 3 14:34:02 2015 No.2381348

>>2378810
>the very best real time 1st person dungeon crawler?
I assume you mean something with a lot of stats and tactical combat, so other people's suggestions are probably what you really want, but I have to say that Ultima Underworld I to me still has the best feeling of actually exploring a dungeon.

The combat and challenge aren't much, but dat atmosphere and feeling of simulation.

>>	Princess Sevenleaf !AnVbXjgZco Sun May 3 14:49:19 2015 No.2381375 File: 5 KB, 124x140, telengard vampire.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 14:52:15 2015 No.2381383 >>2378821 Except its not you actual retard because the leveling and skill progression isn't even similar and the combat has a shitload of differences. Fuck off.

Anonymous Sun May 3 14:57:11 2015 No.2381390 [DELETED]

File: 10 KB, 471x469, DND.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2379354
>Telengard, one of the first (if not THE first) graphical RPG
Nah, Telengard's not really that old. I can think of plenty of CRPG's that predate it.

DND was written on a college mainframe in the 70's. It predates Telengard by nearly a decade.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 15:02:51 2015 No.2381406 >>2381390 Telengard was a remake of DnD for a commercial home computer release. Dan Lawrence wrote both.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 15:33:41 2015 No.2381461 >>2381406 Yeah, I deleted my post once I realized that. Spiritually they're the same game, and the name change was obviously for legal reasons.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 15:43:25 2015 No.2381474 >>2381348 Alternatively, there's System Shock which removes all the RPG elements in favor of more simulation and slightly better combat.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 15:45:32 2015 No.2381479 >>2381461 It was also cut down to fit into the memory of a PET and other low spec computers. I need to get SIMH or whatever running so I can emulate the original.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 16:52:28 2015 No.2381624 >>2381474 I'd say MUCH better combat.

Anonymous Sun May 3 16:57:01 2015 No.2381630

>>2381331
>Because roleplaying in a singleplayer game is for autists.
You are confusing roleplaying with cRPG-LARPing (aka roleplaying according to BG2 lovers / Bioware fanboys).

To quote a wise man from the Cognitive Elite HQ of the Internet:
"I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "i-am-a-paladin-so-i-will-only-do-paladinlike-things" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares."

This is very deep and the perfect definition of what roleplaying in cRPG is.

Roleplaying in cRPG = making choices and having said choices acknowledged by the dungeon master (=computer) with consequences.

Doing only 'paladinlike things' because you have a 'paladin' in some dungeon crawler wannabe RPG = LARPing. You are making a choice in real life and the computer doesn't give a shit about it.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:11:21 2015 No.2381665 http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/psychicwar/psychicwar.htm why is this the only one in a sf universe ?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:13:23 2015 No.2381670 Grimcock 2 need more fanmaps.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:14:47 2015 No.2381672 >>2379335 Hiss Listen to the intro.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:17:35 2015 No.2381673 >>2381630 >there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares. That's where personal preference comes in, the computer will never care, but someone playing might get more enjoyment out of doing it.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:19:36 2015 No.2381678 >>2381624 Yeah, it's kind of true, you don't have to perform those mouse movements and the ranged weapons are more reliable, true.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 17:19:41 2015 No.2381679 >>2381673 Actually the computer can care. In example, in Pillars of Eternity, the computer does reward / punish you for doing / not doing only paladinlike things.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 18:42:04 2015 No.2381793 >>2379608 Shintaro Kago. I love him, he's absolutely crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 18:52:39 2015 No.2381801 File: 20 KB, 334x370, This nigga.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2379642

>>	Anonymous Sun May 3 19:17:29 2015 No.2381835 File: 103 KB, 148x146, TelengardDemon.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2381375 demons are my favorite a whip and a sword is pretty badass.

Anonymous Sun May 3 20:02:26 2015 No.2381910

>>2379675
I guess it was just a novelty at the time, to be able to have a dungeon that was THAT fucking huge.

At least on paper. In practice, the dungeon probably has a lot of repeating features, since the ability to create pseudo-random stuff back then was... not so great.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 05:35:48 2015 No.2382580 File: 181 KB, 800x998, rav-box1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] anyone ever play this?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 10:33:16 2015 No.2382825 File: 64 KB, 329x484, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2382580 Seems familiar

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 11:36:49 2015 No.2382925 >>2382580 I remember a review from back then, it was rather mediocre. There is a sequel of sorts called Menzoberranzan, obviously set in the Underdark, which got a much better review. If you haven't yet I'd start there, if only for Drizzt.

Anonymous Mon May 4 12:13:57 2015 No.2382979
File: 7 KB, 51x35, Screen shot 2015-05-04 at 9.12.00 AM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>out of mana!
>Hide in a sealed room and close the door behind me
>Start sleeping
"You are interrupted
Gelatinous glob hits you
Gelatinous glob hits you
Gelatinous glob hits you
Gelatinous glob hits you
Gelatinous glob hits you
Gelatinous glob hits you"
>He broke through the fucking door!

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 12:30:43 2015 No.2382995 I really like daggerfall and I'm looking to get into old pc dungeon crawlers, can I get a list of the best ones? Preferably ones in real time with an emphasis on a small party or better yet a single player character.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 12:39:17 2015 No.2383003 >>2382825 Castlevania did not invent vampires or gothic imagery.

Anonymous Mon May 4 12:58:37 2015 No.2383041
File: 42 KB, 726x380, castle_of_the_winds___remake_by_jinndemonevil-d33j9fm.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2382979
Sue me, but I actually liked it alot because of the optional permadeath. I wonder if there's any other game with the same option that I never heard of.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 15:46:25 2015 No.2383365 File: 29 KB, 300x381, Ravenloft_I6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2382825 castlevania actually ripped that off from dungeons and dragons first >>2382925 I heard menzoberranzan is the mediocre one and ravenloft was pretty decent :S

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 15:49:25 2015 No.2383373 >>2378965 >cloud dragon >in a dungeon Fucking Might and Magic

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 16:22:59 2015 No.2383467 >>2382995 Dungeon Hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab1ZIyLGKKA It may not be the best, or most popular; but random dungeons make it infinitely replayable, and there is plenty of customization. I will always recommend it.

Anonymous Mon May 4 16:24:42 2015 No.2383469

>>2383365
Actually Menzoberranzan is sheer crap and Ravenloft is supposed to be mediocre, yet I don't like it one bit. The fun got lost somewhere between the awful clumsy controls and the barebones mechanics.
>>2383373
They're also on clouds, if that makes you happier

Anonymous Mon May 4 16:34:05 2015 No.2383483

>>2383469
controls pretty much the same as eye of the beholder to me. You know there are two ravenloft games though. Strahd's Possession and Stone Prophet, the reviews for each of them seem to be all over the place but between 65-85%. I dunno I'll probably play them just cause they have a little more variety than Eye of the Beholder.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 4 16:36:53 2015 No.2383492 >>2382995 Ultima Underworld and Diablo 1 seem like good starting points.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 00:37:28 2015 No.2384281 >>2382995 Essential series are Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld and Ishar

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 13:31:21 2015 No.2384936 >>2380676 dungeon crawlers are roleplaying games

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 13:41:56 2015 No.2384945 I kinda want to make a dungeon crawler now. If I made a game that runs in DOS, would that be considered /vr/?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 13:45:51 2015 No.2384950 >>2384936 Yes, just like Silent Hill games are third person shooters.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 13:47:56 2015 No.2384952 >>2384945 PC-98 DOS: yes IBM DOS: no

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 14:10:12 2015 No.2384982 >>2384952 How the fuck is IBM DOS not /vr/?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 14:22:26 2015 No.2385001 >>2384950 how is dungeon crawling not roleplaying? You have xp, stats and character building. You dont need to have people to talk to to make it an rpg bud.

Anonymous Tue May 5 14:35:07 2015 No.2385024

>>2385001
What you need is

CHOICES
&
CONSEQUENCES

end of line.

"xp, stats and character building" don't make a cRPG. By retarded standards, every shitty triple A FPS/TPS with upgrades or something like that is a RPG.

It isn't.

You can have a real cRPG without XP and stats and even without character building no problemo.

Anonymous Tue May 5 14:40:58 2015 No.2385031

>>2385024

The whole idea of an RPG is nebulous. I disagree though. What's important is that you're playing a role. Choices and consequences are a part of that, but it's also important that a character has abilities different from yours, so that success or failure are based on their reflexes rather than yours, and that, for instance, you may know something that they don't, and they can't succeed because of this.

In any case, there isn't a particularly clear definition of an RPG. I find yours far too vague, and it could describe almost any adventure game.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 15:18:35 2015 No.2385084 >You can have a real cRPG without XP and stats and even without character building no problemo. Name one Then name another nine

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 16:26:30 2015 No.2385274 >>2381630 fuck off

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 16:32:23 2015 No.2385284 >>2384982 Same reason why IBM/Windows, IBM/GNU/Linux or Mac/Mac OS games released in 2000 or later aren't retro. It's just an OS and not a limited hardware platform.

Anonymous Tue May 5 17:14:08 2015 No.2385379

>>2385031
>What's important is that you're playing a role.

Most retarded definition I heard in my life, thanks mate.

>Doom is a roleplaying game, for I am playing a role of a space marine who fights against demons.
Etc.

>>2385274
Why so frustrated, Bioware fanboy?

>>2385084
No one ever tried to make a mainstream one yet, but King of Dragon Pass comes close and so do some of the "Choice of Games" Games.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 17:16:21 2015 No.2385383 >>2385031 >I find yours far too vague, and it could describe almost any adventure game. Also this is even more idiotic. Adventure games have no choices & consequences. If the only choice is "proceed" or "not proceed" then it obviously doesn't count.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 17:29:17 2015 No.2385401 >>2385383 >adventure games don't have choices Most retarded thing I have read all day.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 17:31:23 2015 No.2385402 >>2385401 They don't have real choices. You can either waste your time by refusing to do the thing that makes the linear plot advance or you can do the thing and advance the plot. Mongol.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 17:35:02 2015 No.2385410 >>2385402 Fuck off kid obviously you never played maniac mansion. One of the most well known and its packed with real choices

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 17:40:18 2015 No.2385417 >>2385410 Actually I did, and both of them. The 'choices' were extremely superficial and no different from other adventure games. All you do is see a different part of the story / at a different time.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 18:20:26 2015 No.2385490 >>2385024 Is Katawa Shoujo a cRPG?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 18:25:20 2015 No.2385501 >>2385490 No? It's not even a game.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 18:42:45 2015 No.2385532 >>2385379 >No one ever tried to make a mainstream one yet Don't hold out on us buddy, we want to know about the obscure ones

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 18:45:06 2015 No.2385541 >>2385532 I answered that already. I understand that as a BioTurd you suffer from ADHD but you should perhaps try reading posts made by your intellectual superiors sometimes.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:36:00 2015 No.2385873 >>2385379 I explained exactly what I meant by that statement right after that, you disingenuous faggot

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:37:24 2015 No.2385874 >>2385541 The autistic faggot level is off the fucking charts here

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:39:20 2015 No.2385878 >>2385501 I think he's trying to bait or something... since it's not retro either

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:40:26 2015 No.2385883 >>2385541 >>2385874 >>>/v/ both of you thank you and good bye

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:45:45 2015 No.2385893 >>2385883 Won't you stay and let us learn at the feet of our better?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:49:46 2015 No.2385902 Since my thread is ruined can the sperglord please explain to me how eye of the beholder is not a roleplaying game?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:52:07 2015 No.2385905 >>2385902 CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES YOU LESSER HUMAN INSECT

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 21:57:37 2015 No.2385913 >>2385905 okay I still don't understand please explain how eotb is not an rpg while also explaining how dragon quest is an rpg in terms a lesser human insect can understand.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:00:00 2015 No.2385915 >>2385913 I'm not him and I don't give a fuck. Here's my idea of an RPG, which isn't ridiculously vague. >>2385031

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:03:53 2015 No.2385919 >>2385902 for some reason /vr/ seems to not be able to have PC rpg threads anymore... also it doesn't help that it seems that /b/ or /v/ or something is invading every god damn board, is one of them down or something?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:06:30 2015 No.2385926 >>2385919 This site has gone to shit anyway. If [this site's far-superior fulfillment which is apparently haram to mention here] had a functioning /vr/ I'd be there.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:08:03 2015 No.2385927 >>2385926 Does it get flagged if you call it totalchan?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:09:31 2015 No.2385929 >>2385926 god, fuck off, and I'm the person you responded to

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:09:38 2015 No.2385930 >>2385927 Nope

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:10:31 2015 No.2385932 >>2385927 fuck off

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:11:27 2015 No.2385936 >>2385932 Come to the promised land, brother. Things are just as shit as you remember there.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:11:31 2015 No.2385937 >>2385930 fuck off

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:12:31 2015 No.2385938 >>2385936 sorry, but I'm not a pedo or racist /pol/ retard

Anonymous Tue May 5 22:14:40 2015 No.2385940

>>2385938

Ah ha ha ha

Seriously faggot it's just like this site used to be. The media lie about shit and there was never any CP.

Also I'm a Trotskyist. There's actually a whole board for far left politics. But whatever. The /vr/ there could use whoever it could get.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 22:58:55 2015 No.2386012 >>2385940 >there was never any CP So it's not just like this site used to be.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 23:23:59 2015 No.2386041 >>2385938 >sorry, but I'm not a pedo or racist /pol/ retard then why did you come to 4chan? sounds like you might like reddit better.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 5 23:53:54 2015 No.2386079 >>2378746 how do i into exult? ultima 7 seems like a good entry point into the series for me but i cant fucking get it to work properly on linux

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 00:12:39 2015 No.2386098 >>2386012 Actually, the 'CP' was just like what you'd see on, like /tv/ back in the day.

Anonymous Wed May 6 03:52:58 2015 No.2386325

>>2385915
*which is shit.

Fixed it for you.

>>2385913
I never said Dragon Quest is an RPG?

Eye of the Beholder is a dungeon crawler. It has no choices and consequences whatsoever. It's all about kombat and statistiks.

If you want an example of real, true cRPGs:
>Fallout
>Planescape: Torment
>Arcanum
>Fallout 2
>Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines

those are 5 of the best RPGs ever made, with actual roleplaying / choices & consequences.

Coincidentally, they're also all in the top 5 on RPGCodex's list of best RPGs of all time (excet Bloodlines which had its spot stolen by BG2).

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 03:58:53 2015 No.2386331 >>2386079 Ultima 7 is a terrible point to get into the series. The plot builds strongly on 4-6 and the gameplay isn't very good. Start with 1, 3 or 4 for the main series or play Worlds of Ultima and Underworld 1 for standalone spinoffs.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 04:11:22 2015 No.2386342 >>2386325 How is combat and statistics not the epitome of choices and consequences? You choose which moves to make and which path to take and that entirely determines your progress.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 04:38:50 2015 No.2386369 >>2386342 >How is combat and statistics not the epitome of choices and consequences? True, games like Cow of Dooty 6: Modern Advancement are teh epitomes of RPG!

Anonymous Wed May 6 04:47:04 2015 No.2386375

I haven't as of yet been able to get into blobbers. I find them frustrating and somewhat nerve-wracking to play, and I find it a bit curious when people can't get into Daggerfall or Arena, for instance. I think those games are extremely easy to get into since you control one character, can do whatever you want in the world without worry of long-term screwups and get rich in a number of ways.

Compared to Might and Magic 3, for instance, I recognize it's considered an easy game, but the fact that your characters age, leveling up takes progressively more cash, you don't know what any of the items do unless you go to a store and identify each and every single one, and have to manage 4 inventories just makes me nervous with these games. Also it seems like you can fuck up your party composition and start with shitty stats, especially in some other installments.

Like, why the aging? I just wanna be relaxed and explore the world, I know it's probably a remote possibility but fuck, it's autism.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 04:54:34 2015 No.2386383 >>2386325 That is stupid crpgs are rooted in ultima and wizardry. You just posted a bunch of talky crap.

Anonymous Wed May 6 04:59:12 2015 No.2386386

>>2386375
Natural aging isn't a problem unless you decide to work while forgetting that a week has ten days and there are only 100 days per year.
You don't die of old age, it just lowers some of your stats (and raises others) and when your stats are 0 there is a chance you will die at the start of each day. You can still be resurrected normally.

The quality of an item is mainly determined by its material. After a while you should learn which are the best available. Price can also be used as an indicator but isn't completely trustworthy.
You can change your party members freely before MM6. Stats are easily gained afterwards so a few points in the beginning won't make a lot of a difference.
Unless you decide to go full retard and make a party composed entirely of robbers or similar you shouldn't worry.

Anonymous Wed May 6 05:06:08 2015 No.2386392

>>2386383
Both are RPGs but different styles/subgenres

He is of the mistaken sort that thinks only post-Fallout games are the defining RPGs and everything before is retconned out of existence I guess

The CRPG addict, I think, has the most realistic definition of the genre:

>1. There must be some form of character development, which might include increases in hit points, spell points, experience, levels, attributes, or skills. Basically, the character has to get intrinsically stronger and tougher as you play the game. Improvements in inventory do not count.

>2. Combat effectiveness (including accuracy and damage) must be dependent to some degree on character attributes. Again, these could include standard Dungeons & Dragons-style characteristics, like strength and dexterity, or a skill-based system as in Skyrim. Combat effectiveness based solely on inventory or player dexterity with a controller does not count.
>3. Characters in the game must have flexible inventories that are not based around solving puzzles. Characters should find some variety of weapons, armor, potions, and magic items during the game, and the player should be able to choose what the character wields and when he uses various items.

The defining characteristics of an RPG are character development through attributes and other mechanical elements. Everyone understands this to be the case and for instance, if an FPS has you collect experience points to upgrade your gun skills, it's called a "FPS with RPG elements" because the genre is ultimately defined by mechanics, not vague concepts like "choice" and "freedom".

"Role-playing game" is a bit of a misnomer for the genre, this is true. What RPGs are is determined by their history and what they were from the start, translations of D&D combat and mechanics combined with an adventure game.

Anonymous Wed May 6 05:11:21 2015 No.2386396

>>2386392
(cont)
Also, I think the alleged "freedom" of tabletop roleplaying is far too emphasized by these people. They'd have you believe that roleplaying involves people constantly making deep choices and interacting in a well-developed world. The truth is that the earliest, and probably most common D&D modules, were basically dungeon crawls. You made up a party with a few people and descended into some tunnels to slay goblins, collect treasure and avoid traps. A game such as Wizardry is exactly the translation of this type of game.
If you had a cool DM who was really passionate, you could experience these huge worlds with much more than combat. And eventually computer RPGs would portray this, but making it the sole requirement for an RPG to have meaningful choices is simply historically inaccurate.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 05:12:10 2015 No.2386397 >>2386392 Pnp RPGs changed over time as well. Things like immersive storytelling or freedom didn't matter in the 70s or 80s.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 05:39:08 2015 No.2386425 >>2386331 >start with 4 :^)

Anonymous Wed May 6 05:47:06 2015 No.2386426

>>2386383
>That is stupid crpgs are rooted in ultima and wizardry.
Holy shit.

This is what the retard actually believes.

>cRPGs are "rooted" in early shitty / dungeon crawler only versions of RPGs
>they are not rooted in actual RPGs because BibleThump!

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 05:54:30 2015 No.2386430 >>2379908 I love you Fucking loved that game Favorite was spending all wishes at end to duplicate el's drinker, and then starting the second game (wake of the ravager) with FOUR Glorious ambience in that game, what a depressed wasteland..

Anonymous Wed May 6 05:55:04 2015 No.2386431

>>2386396
The 'freedom' touted of tabletop roleplaying is entailed inherently in that having a human adjudicator means that rules can be bent or changed, restrictions loosed, goals varied, encounters restructured, all on the fly in ways that a computer - especially of the '80s - couldn't.

Yes, even in a straightforward dungeon-crawling campaign - the original D&D was practically predicated on the expectation of houserules, even if that just means the DM made up his own monsters and loot to slot into the tables - all the way up to wilderness campaigns, cities, classes, even actual game rules.

A computer generally can't offer that same kind of situational flexibility.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 06:04:47 2015 No.2386439 >>2386426 >crpgs are rooted in late 90s isometric / dialogue only versions of RPGs >they are not rooted in D&D-derived mechanics because Planescape Torment hardon

Anonymous Wed May 6 06:27:45 2015 No.2386453

>>2385024
and by your retarded definition games like far cry 4 can be considered RPG because you can choose between multiple endings or you can choose between Sabal and Amita

>>2385379
>Bioware fanboy
haha you are trying to insult me like this? what a fucking loser

hey loser, how does it feels that xp and statistics are universally regarded as real video RPG attributes, and that there will be thousands of new games released with no shitty choices, consenquences or dialogues but solely xp, statistics, combat orientated games ant they will be regarded as true video RPG among general population and some of them even one of the best RPGs

its only few ratards like you babbling what RPG should be about, no one cares what you have to say anyway, you will change nothing

now crawl back to rpgcodex or whatever shithole you call home and dont come back, your greasy neckbeards living in their parents basements you call friends are waiting for you

and btw BG2 is considered one of the best RPG ever created

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 06:31:39 2015 No.2386454 >>2386392 I don't know if you're the same autistic faggot, but this is essentially a wordier version of the exact definition I gave.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 06:33:47 2015 No.2386456 >>2386454 Disregard that, I can see you're different now.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 07:29:58 2015 No.2386492 File: 87 KB, 768x1024, rpgs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] A lot of people who have never played an actual roleplaying game itt

Anonymous Wed May 6 07:53:19 2015 No.2386509
File: 1.37 MB, 1534x2100, A Fantasy Role-Playing Simulation.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2386492
Stop trying to force your own definition on others.
It's okay if you don't want to consider Wizardry as an RPG, but everyone considers Wizardry an RPG since 1981.

Anonymous Wed May 6 07:57:59 2015 No.2386517

>>2386492
So you're basically agreeing with me >>2385024.

>>2386453
>and by your retarded definition games like far cry 4 can be considered RPG because you can choose between multiple endings or you can choose between Sabal and Amita
Again, the mind of the BioDrone insect-sized brain cannot comprehend what choices and consequences are.

Just because a game has two or more endings doesn't mean it's a roleplaying game. Choices and consequences (=roleplaying) is not about having different slideshows / ending screens / outros.

>and btw BG2 is considered one of the best RPG ever created
Yes, by BioDrone garbage like you.

Even with all the forced hype from the irrelevant no-name trash that voted for it on the Codex, it only managed to get the 4th place (which is insulting, because it's above Arcanum).
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

Still, the Elite Intellectual HQ has spoken. Deal with it.

Also, RPGCodex is hardly "greasy neckbeards living in their parents basements" - that's just you projecting BSN on others. If you weren't a pleb, you would have access to the Codex Member Pictures thread where you would see that the vast majority of us are 8-10/10 supergods.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 07:58:59 2015 No.2386518 >>2386509 >everyone Funny, since you haven't even played it yourself Bioboy.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:05:06 2015 No.2386525 >>2386518 >bioboy Man, that sounds like a junior partner of some hippie superhero. Please don't call me that.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:17:03 2015 No.2386534 >>2386517 >no-name trash >Elite Intellectual HQ That's exactly why forums are even shittier than 4chan, leaving aside the fact that you empathized elite and intellectual as something positive. And i love arcanum, BG2 not really that much.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:20:17 2015 No.2386538 >>2386534 >That's exactly why forums are even shittier than 4chan, Forums, yes. RPGCodex, no. There is no better place on the Internet than RPGCodex.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:22:06 2015 No.2386542 >>2386538 I don't get your angle. Why are you posting this inane crap?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:22:58 2015 No.2386543 >>2386517 >it's above Arcanum also below fallout and planescape which is sad because bg2 is more fun and interesting then these games put together

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:28:10 2015 No.2386550 >>2386538 Your comment doesn't sound biased at all, did you know it anon ? I mostly agree with those fucks.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 08:58:11 2015 No.2386584 >>2386543 >also below fallout and planescape which is sad because bg2 is more fun and interesting then these games put together Consider suicide, Bioboy. >>2386550 I know, I am 100% white and unbiased.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:00:20 2015 No.2386587 >>2386584 fuck off rpgcodex kretin

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:02:23 2015 No.2386589 >>2386587 No.

Anonymous Wed May 6 09:17:42 2015 No.2386602

>>2386517
>BG2
>only managed to get the 4th place
>only 4th place
>ONLY
>4TH PLACE
>OF ALL TIME

>http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453
>Planescape: Torment.
>Even calling it an RPG is almost a matter of some debate.

>#10 Wizardry 8

>#14 Dark Souls

lmao

inb4 backpeddling, special pleading and assorted damage control

Anonymous Wed May 6 09:18:24 2015 No.2386604

>>2386375
Might and Magic games only look intimidating until the point where you figure out that in every single game of the series, age has negligible impact at best, stats barely matter since you're tripping over stat up options everyplace you go and they have diminishing returns (bonuses past stat value 50 are pretty minimal), and in the end equipment is what will matter the most. Money can be an issue late-game, but for the most part you will have more than a steady income. The key to party composition is to keep it simple - 3 fighter types, 3 mage types. Don't forget to make one of them a druid (only important in M&M3, otherwise druids suck).

M&M is probably the comfiest RPG series there is, though 3 felt a bit less like this compared to the rest admittedly. Play Xeen or 6.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:22:18 2015 No.2386613 File: 115 KB, 640x400, Black_Crypt-3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] WHO GIVES A FUCK YOU IDIOTS, DO YOU THINK YOU'RE FUN TO READ OR SOMETHING POST GAMES TL;DR HOW DO I BEAT THIS FAG

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:23:30 2015 No.2386617 >>2386613 Have you tried killing it?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:25:11 2015 No.2386619 >>2386617 DOESN'T WORK

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:29:51 2015 No.2386623 >>2386619 Have you tried bribing or seducing it?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:38:14 2015 No.2386629 >>2386613 on a similar note how do you put stuff in your inventory in Dungeon Master I mean do you have to pick one thing up, switch to inventory screen, drop it, repeat, because that takes forever if there's more than one item

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:39:05 2015 No.2386631 >>2386604 Why do I need a druid in M&M3? I thought the starter party was pretty ideal so I went with it. I don't see any druid spells that look necessary.

Anonymous Wed May 6 09:43:18 2015 No.2386639

>>2386623
I'm not into two-headed fat ogres
>>2386629
Take item, then click it on the health/stamina/magic triple bar
Overall picking up many items gets annoying later though, that's why quivers are stupid and ranged weapons are just trouble unless they're thrown
>>2386631
>Why do I need a druid in M&M3?
Water walking
You might randomly come across a wand of water walking that'll replace the need for one, but that's just extra annoyance

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:46:47 2015 No.2386642 >>2386631 In M&M3 only Druids and Rangers can learn the waterwalk spell. But even if you don't have waterwalk you can still use the Etherealize spell to move through water.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:47:48 2015 No.2386643 >>2386642 That costs a shitton of mana though, so good luck fighting those thick ass crabs later in the game

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:48:11 2015 No.2386646 >>2386631 >>2386639 A ranger gets the same spells and is more effective. Robbers or ninja may seem necessary but there aren't that many chests to unlock and you can learn thievery with other characters halfway through the game.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:50:31 2015 No.2386649 >>2386646 A robber is pretty much just a slightly weaker fighter anyway however, unlike other RPGs' rogue classes there's no big gap in combat effectiveness. I'd say he's a good addition

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:54:35 2015 No.2386651 >>2386639 But I have the swimming skill, you can learn it very early in the game. I can walk across rivers and in the sea outside. What's the catch?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 09:58:28 2015 No.2386656 >>2386651 >What's the catch? Deep water dude

Anonymous Wed May 6 10:03:06 2015 No.2386658

>>2386649
A robber needs 6 levels to gain a new attack, knights and ninjas need 5 and a barbarian 4. HP are also favoring the barb.
Robbers have the advantage of gaining levels a bit faster but that doesn't last for long.

I went with Paladin, Paladin, Barbarian, Ninja, Ranger, Archer. Screw full casters since they can't use ranged weapons.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 10:06:46 2015 No.2386664 >>2386658 What do you need ranged weapons for when you can spam Fiery flail on everything

Anonymous Wed May 6 10:20:42 2015 No.2386672

>>2386602
What's wrong with yoou, you autistic BioDrone?

I said that BG2 being 4th (above Arcanum) is the product of irrelevant no names whose opinion interests exactly nobody on the Dex.

The top 5 should have been:
#1 PST
#2 Fallout
#3 Arcanum
#4 Fallout 2
#5 Bloodlines

but can't have everything perfect.

I don't see what's your problem with Dark Souls and Wizardry 8 on the list when there's plenty of other less RPG games than that in it. Dark Souls has as much choices and consequences BG2 in example. Wizardry 8 is one of the few games in the series (Dark Savant trilogy) that has actual choices and consequences as well.

I'm guessing you mentioned these two specifically because they're the only ones you heard about on the list (which wouldn't surprise me, since you're a BioDrone).

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 10:21:20 2015 No.2386673 Well okay, I guess I'll replace Sir Developer with a ranger. Better be worth it on level 10

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 10:21:55 2015 No.2386674 >>2386672 *as BG2

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 10:59:37 2015 No.2386718 >>2386664 You don't need spells when you have obsidian ranged weapons for everyone. I got through the whole game without resting.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 11:14:00 2015 No.2386747 >>2386672 With your obsession with C&C how Alpha Protocol isn't in your top 5?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 11:24:24 2015 No.2386771 >>2386747 Because it's a bugged game. It would definitely deserve a top 10 spot at least if it was a bit more polished. Bloodlines probably wouldn't be that high up without Wesp's contribution.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 11:27:11 2015 No.2386776 >>2386771 >Because it's a bugged game. So it's Arcanum and Bloodlines.

Anonymous Wed May 6 11:29:05 2015 No.2386779

>>2386776
Do you even read, you fucking Mongoloid? I mentioned Bloodlines - everything there was fixed by the unofficial patches. Just because they weren't made by Troika doesn't mean the patched game isn't great. Arcanum's bugs are overrated, it was playable without UAP too.

Anonymous Wed May 6 13:09:39 2015 No.2386914
File: 444 KB, 1280x826, unlimited-adventures.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anyone who liked the original Gold Box games should check out Unlimited Adventures. Neckbeards from across the world have been making modules for it over the last two decades using their own art, sprites, music, etc. Some guy actually remade Pool of Radiance and the sequel using the FRUA engine. He also converted shitloads of classic D&D modules like Keep on the Borderlands. I played through a couple, and they're up to par.

Module listings:
http://frua.corhub.com/

FRUA setup instructions:
http://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=464.0

If you want to play a recent module, try out "The Sect."

Anonymous Wed May 6 13:18:04 2015 No.2386924
File: 82 KB, 307x500, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2386672
>>2386672

>I don't see what's your problem with Dark Souls and Wizardry 8 on the list when there's plenty of other less RPG games than that in it.

You're too stupid to grasp that this is a problem for you, not me.

Fucking lol

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 13:19:52 2015 No.2386930 >>2386924 Are you shitting me, BioDrone? >If you cannot understand how my tiny insect casual brain works, you're stoopid! >lol As expected of a BioTard.

Anonymous Wed May 6 13:32:20 2015 No.2386949
File: 518 KB, 1280x826, dark-queen-of-krynn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2386914
>http://frua.corhub.com/

Wrong link. Whoops.

http://frua.rosedragon.org/modulelist/classic.php

There are also the other Gold Box games. Very satisfying combat, and they're all basically abandonware.

Anonymous Wed May 6 13:40:37 2015 No.2386963

>>2386930
Nice limited and repetitive language, it's a telltale sign of aspergers. I've never played any Bioware game, I was just curious why you'd link a list that is full of non-RPGs by your own definition, suggests that PS may not qualify as an rpg, and contains almost no games that aren't largely combat-oriented and feature C&C in an at-best secondary role. I mean it doesn't much help your case, but you probably know dexers usually laugh at consummate storyfags anyway so...

Anonymous Wed May 6 13:55:33 2015 No.2386990

>>2386963
>Nice limited and repetitive language
Still better than anything you have provided in this thread, BioPoop.
> I've never played any Bioware game,
Just because they're EA Edmonton now doesn't mean that all the other games that you love so much were not made by Bioware. The name change is not retroactive.

Anonymous Wed May 6 14:01:59 2015 No.2387002

>>2386990
>Still better than anything you have provided in this thread, BioPoop.

My words are spun of gold gifted from the gods. If you hadn't made INT your dump stat, maybe you'd have better dialog choices. :^)

>Just because they're EA Edmonton now doesn't mean that all the other games that you love so much were not made by Bioware. The name change is not retroactive.

So you got nothing, then.

On closer examination, Deus Ex got robbed.

Anonymous Wed May 6 14:06:53 2015 No.2387014

>>2387002
>My words are spun of gold gifted from the gods
That's a very interesting way of saying they're shit.

Also, I have an IQ of 147 and I am a Mensa member. Why do I even have to mention this? I mean, I am a Codexer and you are not. You are a dindu compared to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 14:13:42 2015 No.2387028 >>2387014 you have IQ of 147 and yet you still too fucking stupid to form a coherent argument no wonder you browse codex shithole

Anonymous Wed May 6 14:18:57 2015 No.2387045

>>2387014

>I have an IQ of 147 and I am a Mensa member

Now convinced that you're a troll. Suspected it before. You're pretty good, but you went a little too broad with it ultimately.

Also GTFO, this board is the only reason I have to keep coming to this site.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 14:21:16 2015 No.2387050 >>2387014 fuck off back to /v/ nigger trash

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 14:29:48 2015 No.2387069 File: 465 KB, 512x288, 1409064284495.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2387014 This is either really "clever" b8 or you just dropped a bucket full of spaghetti. Either way, toasting in epic bread

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 15:05:40 2015 No.2387137 >>2387069 who this qt?

Anonymous Wed May 6 15:22:59 2015 No.2387165

>>2386397
This. D&D was basically just a dungeon crawl in paper form before Wizards of the Coast got ahold of it. It was born out of tabletop war gaming, and was meant to be a COMBAT simulation first and foremost.

>b-but, REAL rpg's let the players influence the story!
People who say this shit obviously didn't play D&D when it was new.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 6 15:25:21 2015 No.2387169 >>2387165 It wasn't paper. It was the flesh and blood of Gary Gygax. Creativity consisted in setting particularly devious traps and finding your way to counter them.

Anonymous Thu May 7 00:37:15 2015 No.2388086
File: 26 KB, 243x190, chenponder.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2378746
i've been on a RTWP kick

turn based is just too goddamn slow and i like to be able to stop and think about my decisions when i, the player, feel it's convenient, not the game.

NWN, KOTOR and Summoner are what i'm into at the moment but i'm probably gonna need more to satiate my fix, any suggestions?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 01:31:50 2015 No.2388163 >>2388086 Turn based can be blazing fast. If you accelerate it it can be a lot faster than real time combat.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 15:27:50 2015 No.2389068 Where should I start with the Might and Magic series?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 15:44:56 2015 No.2389085 >>2389068 What kind of experiences do you have? There is a bit of a continuity so it doesn't hurt to play them (including HoMM) in order if you are weathered enough.

Anonymous Thu May 7 15:51:03 2015 No.2389092

I'm all about the whole choices and consequences shit.

When it's actually done well and integrated into the gameplay.

Choosing dialogue options is a cheap and lazy way of doing it. And in most RPGs it doesn't really change much anyways aside from a couple lines of story that don't even really matter.

Choices should be decisions the player makes when actually playing the game.

And it really doesn't take that much more work to do this sort of thing. Like say you give the player an option to do two quests. They can only pick one of the other. Most games will just have a dumb menu where you pick one or the other.

But what you could do simple present those two options to the player, and they can just go to whichever quest they have chosen. It's really not any different, but it just makes the game feel much more natural.

No, choices and consequences aren't the end all of RPGs. But I think it's a big part. And they don't have to be explicit grand scale story and world changing things either. They can be things very small, only really perceptible to the player.

Take the job system in FF5 for example. Those are choices, and those choices effect how you play the game. No, the story doesn't change, but in a very restrictive video game world, it's really hard to think of every action a player could do and have the game world respond in a dynamic and natural way. So having a somewhat linear story with open ended gameplay is what most RPGs try to do.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 16:06:50 2015 No.2389110 >>2389085 Only game in the franchise I've played is Dark Messiah. Haven't played any blobbers before either.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 16:14:15 2015 No.2389118 >>2389110 Maybe 1 is a bit tough for newer players since you have to map yourself and you can only save in inns. 3 or 4+5 should be a good introduction. Just don't ignore the first two forever

Anonymous Thu May 7 17:11:48 2015 No.2389191
File: 99 KB, 531x1025, choices.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2389092
>And it really doesn't take that much more work to do this sort of thing.

Actually when it's well done it takes a lot of work.
But i can't think more than 7 or 8 games to do that.
It's basically a exclusive thing of Black Isle-Troika-Obsidian.

Anonymous Thu May 7 17:27:39 2015 No.2389216

>>2389191
Well obviously the more complex the quest structure and whatnot, the harder it is to do.

I just think a lot of RPGs have very rigid structures. You don't even need that level of freedom to make quests feel more organic.

There are other ways of moving quests along other than talking to the NPC that has a glowing exclamation point above their head.

So many RPG devs that that talking to NPCs is the only way to move quests along.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 20:08:01 2015 No.2389537 >>2389068 Usually people will say start with 6 or 4+5, and then decide which you like better before continuing to 7 and 8, or to 3 and [/spoiler]X[/spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Thu May 7 21:40:43 2015 No.2389694 >>2389068 I'm starting with 3 it's pretty great so far I am going to drink a redbull get stoned as fuck and immerse myself into it again in a few minutes.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 8 11:24:44 2015 No.2390684 File: 226 KB, 866x779, 1394896918290.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2386613 >that pic which one do you think is the bitch in the relationship? i think its the one on the left. he's a whole 3 inches shorter. manlets. when will they learn

>>	Anonymous Fri May 8 12:55:52 2015 No.2390814 >>2390684 >LoL underage detected

>>	Anonymous Sat May 9 22:04:26 2015 No.2394215 >>2388086 summoner sounds like a horrible game. >>2389068 homm 2

Anonymous Sat May 9 22:26:48 2015 No.2394250
File: 270 KB, 643x511, We're the princes of the universe.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Might and Magic 6
As a kid this was my first induction into the M&M series so I didn't know the 'meta plot' until I hit the tomb of varn and truly understood.

I dont know if it was just something I did, but I always kept the flute with me whenever I played, (i remember it seeming like a huge mystery when I was a kid, and learning much later that its useless, made the item strangely cooler. like it was some artifact of game design)

>>	Anonymous Sat May 9 22:33:47 2015 No.2394263 which gold box game first

>>	Anonymous Sat May 9 23:59:28 2015 No.2394384 >>2394263 buck rogers

>>	Anonymous Sun May 10 00:57:35 2015 No.2394484 >>2394263 start with the greeks

>>	Anonymous Sun May 10 14:54:46 2015 No.2395420 >>2389068 I'd start with 4/5, then, 6. Decide if you liked 4/5 better, or 6 better, and if its 4/5 play 3, and if it's 6, play 7. 8 was kind of a downgrade, and 9....... 4-6 are the best. 4/5 combine into "Worlds" in a really cool way.

Anonymous Sun May 10 15:26:54 2015 No.2395480

>>2394250
I was always amazed at how much WORSE MM7 and MM8 looked than 6. They were such a downgrade. 6 was so vibrant, with great char portraits, and 7 and 8 looked so washed out to me. The 7/8 2.5D sprites of monsters n stuff always looked fucking terrible compared to 6's more clean look.

What a perfect game, so cozy, so comfy.

Anonymous Sun May 10 15:43:35 2015 No.2395507

>>2395420
>4/5 combine into "Worlds" in a really cool way.
I'd rather it's one game sold in two parts. Clouds in particular is missing a lot of content without Darkside and some dungeons are practically impossible under the level cap.

Have really so few people played 1 and 2? You can import characters in 2 to get a head start.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 10 19:47:40 2015 No.2395967 >>2395420 why wouldn't you start with 3 and go onwards? a and 2 are a little archaic but 3 is a really good start point i find. Although the genesis version of 2 is worth playing it's the same as the DoS but adds music which is nice.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 10 19:50:46 2015 No.2395973 >>2378960 Is it really? I've been trying to give it a second chance

>>	Anonymous Sun May 10 21:19:59 2015 No.2396102 >>2395507 I've played the entire series up to 9. 2 is my favorite one, the wackiest and most absurd entry in the series

Anonymous Sun May 10 23:15:12 2015 No.2396290

>>2395480
I guess you can say it's also the victim of transitioning to 3D. In this particular case switching from hand-drawn and photo portraits to prerendered 3D, when the rather low quality of the latter was still accepted because it's new.

I personally don't think MM7 is that bad, though (and MM8 actually improves on graphical aspect), and I'm sure there are some people that dislike MM6 portraits as much as they do live-action games.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 11 01:50:57 2015 No.2396480 FF7 is my favorite rpg of all time. Are there any pc only rpg's on this tier?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 11 01:53:10 2015 No.2396482 >>2396480 septerra core is supposed to be like ff7 I don't really know much about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 11 02:56:50 2015 No.2396550 >>2395967 The Genesis version seems very sluggish. Do you still have to face hundreds of enemies because I feel like that would take forever. The Mac port was a lot more comfortable.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 11 07:49:17 2015 No.2396809 >>2396480 First, what did you like about it? I take it you're looking for similar games, or do you just want a list of accomplished RPGs for the PC?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 11 07:50:40 2015 No.2396812 >>2396550 >Do you still have to face hundreds of enemies IIRC yes, only the SNES version culled down the enemy count. I think they serve up an autocombat option, but I don't know how reliable it is.

Anonymous Mon May 11 11:54:42 2015 No.2397035
File: 14 KB, 320x240, Might and Magic - Gates to Another World (USA, Europe)001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2396812
>IIRC yes, only the SNES version culled down the enemy count.
Looks like it. It should be for the better. Facing 250 enemies of the same type with no practical area effects sucked. Otherwise the version appears standard, there's a zoom for the automap that could be useul in overland.
The SFC version on the other hand is a entirely different game. You have only five characters and can't create your own. The classes appear changed, at least there are fighters in addition to knights. Combat is also different with monsters kept in groups like in Wizardry.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 11:35:55 2015 No.2398732 File: 410 KB, 1025x768, dkm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] aaahhh

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:26:50 2015 No.2398863 >>2396482 >septerra core Got it cheap on GOG. Breddy gud

>>	. Tue May 12 13:35:56 2015 No.2398886 >>2396482 Septerra Core is what happens when western devs try to make a JRPG for PC. The result is a game that is actually good and interesting.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:48:57 2015 No.2398914 >>2398886 Unlike their Japanese counterparts, they have the superpower to see beyond underage animu asses

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:49:33 2015 No.2398916 File: 137 KB, 640x883, 273080_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2398886 The opposite is Tunnels and Trolls?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:51:16 2015 No.2398919 >>2398886 Like Anachronox?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:51:34 2015 No.2398923 >>2398916 Looks like everyone's about to get mangled by the title

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 13:52:34 2015 No.2398924 >>2398919 Anachronox is much weaker on the JRPG elements, but to a certain extent yes.

Anonymous Tue May 12 16:02:58 2015 No.2399173

>>2386914
>>2386949
Anybody have any tips for getting the Gold Box games to play nice in Dosbox? I've been having a heck of a time trying to find the sweet spot for cpu cycles, either I set them high and messages disappear off the screen too fast to read, or I set them low and the game gets really unresponsive and sluggish.

Also, fuck that fight with the four trolls + two ogres in the slums. I keep getting my ass wrecked again and again.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 17:00:55 2015 No.2399283 File: 294 KB, 1039x806, dqk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2399173 Speed of 3 in game works for me. Then again I'm playing this on a dual core from 2009.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 17:07:13 2015 No.2399302 Is Baldur's Gate 2 any good? I'm looking for old rpg's to kill some time.

Anonymous Tue May 12 17:29:31 2015 No.2399352
File: 1.66 MB, 1280x720, daenerys.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I found this stick. I think I'm gonna wander around and hit shit with it till I get really good at it. Once I master stick I think I'll work on pipe and wander around and hit shit with it. Once I master pipe I'll work with sword and wander around and hit shit with it...

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 17:31:44 2015 No.2399358 File: 2.33 MB, 499x352, doeet.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2399352 ^every rpg ever....

Anonymous Tue May 12 18:16:54 2015 No.2399453

>>2399283
Even on Speed 9, I've got about 1 to 2 seconds to read an entire paragraph of text before it goes off the screen, let alone try to follow what's happening in a fight, like how much damage I'm doing or whether a spell worked or not. I'll have to fiddle with it some more, maybe Speed 9 and take it down to 500 cycles or something.

I'm playing Pools of Radiance though, it might work a little different in the later games or FRUA. It drives me crazy how many old games used processor speed as the only limiter for how fast things like text move.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:18:56 2015 No.2399457 >>2399173 There's a key combo to alter the cycles while you're playing.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:22:28 2015 No.2399458 >>2394263 Start with a FRUA module first.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:32:37 2015 No.2399476 >>2399457 That's probably what I'm going to have to do, I just hate having to with that stuff in the middle of a game.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:42:04 2015 No.2399492 File: 19 KB, 385x240, puncline.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2398886 >good This is the joke.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:43:11 2015 No.2399494 >>2398916 wow i used to have a tunnels and trolls gamebook. it was fun but hard as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 18:44:20 2015 No.2399497 >>2399302 it's shit realtime combat. get the fallouts(minus 3 and las vegas /v/ shit) instead.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 19:46:48 2015 No.2399614 >>2399476 have you tried setting the cycles to auto? >>2399457 it's control F11 or alt F11 to speed up and F12 to slow down I think

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:49:44 2015 No.2400391 >>2397035 that still looks like 250+ enemies bud

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:55:17 2015 No.2400405 >>2399173 >Also, fuck that fight with the four trolls + two ogres in the slums Leave it until you have the Stinking Cloud spell. Also I hope you multi-classed your mages so they actually have HP and can equip bows and plate armor.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 05:32:02 2015 No.2400426 File: 19 KB, 640x400, mm2pc98.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2400391 That's the Genesis version. The PC-98 port is interesting since you can get a visual feedback for combat so you can see which enemy attacked you.

Anonymous Wed May 13 10:51:07 2015 No.2400692

>>2399614
That's what I ended up doing, along with turning the speed way down. It's still a little janky in places but at least it's playable now.

>>2400405
>Also I hope you multi-classed your mages so they actually have HP and can equip bows and plate armor.

Unfortunately I've only got one mage in my party and she's a human. I'm going to try putting the ogres to sleep to make a barrier then have my four fighters plink away at the trolls with bows.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:33:59 2015 No.2400720 Are there any old RPGs that don't require reading fuckhuge manuals or in-depth knowledge of DnD mechanics? I want something that's kind of "easy to get into but hard to master"

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 11:59:31 2015 No.2400746 >>2400720 Might & Magic is the quintessential DOS RPG series for beginners with the scene/subgenre/whaddyacallit.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 14:02:34 2015 No.2400870 >>2400720 Yeah the correct answer here is might and magic. Look up 3-6 and take your pick

Anonymous Wed May 13 14:23:37 2015 No.2400891

>>2400870
6 is the only one where that somewhat applies since the game has contextual information but it's from 1998 so it's not really old either.
WoX requires the manual for things like spells. 3 doesn't even have a proper manual so you have to make an educated guess what spells do or look up secondary material.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 18:15:55 2015 No.2401212 Are there any RPGs that have a non-fantasy/(somewhat) unique setting? I recall one that was set in a pyramid, although the name escapes me.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 18:32:46 2015 No.2401239 >>2401212 The only one I can remember taking place in a pyramid/Egyptian tomb is Waxworks, which is a horror game.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 18:36:35 2015 No.2401246 File: 32 KB, 200x285, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2401212 I think this one is in Aztec ruins or something

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 19:22:08 2015 No.2401294 >>2400891 You can read the spell descriptions in the mage guild.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 07:48:52 2015 No.2402145 >>2394250 Is there a high res patch for the game. I've been really wanting to get back into it but the resolution gives me headaches.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 08:59:25 2015 No.2402207 >>2402145 https://sites.google.com/site/angelddeath/#TOC-Might-Magic

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 09:10:01 2015 No.2402220 >>2401212 Albion

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 14:21:02 2015 No.2402696 File: 988 KB, 500x281, gif.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2386949 I couldn't get this download to work on my 64bit.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 14:27:00 2015 No.2402705 >>2402696 You run it in Dosbox.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 15:15:39 2015 No.2402773 >>2386949 >load up an old AD&D module in FRUA >seems like a fairly serious adaptation, plenty of opening dialogue and scenery >the opening song is a midi version of "Dream On" by Aerosmith what

Anonymous Thu May 14 15:26:58 2015 No.2402802

>>2402696
like >>2402705 said, you have to run UASHELL from http://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=464.0 in dosbox.

Then to run a custom module from http://frua.rosedragon.org/modulelist/classic.php you have to drop the unzipped folder right in the FRUA directory (e.g. C:FRUA/game00) and load it up with Design->Apply, then Design->Run

>>	Anonymous Thu May 14 16:57:34 2015 No.2402962 >>2399497 Honestly New Vegas is a fairly good game. It's not as good as Fallout 1 or 2 is, but it's certainly better than Brotherhood of Steel, Tactics, or 3 is.

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