/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.2358653]

What is your opinion on modern-day games which try to capture the essence of retro vidya? Like new indie games with the aesthetics and difficulty of retro vidya. Actually, if you enjoy hard platformers, modern indie games are usually much harder than games on the NES for instance.

Or do you feel that they are not the real deal and do not interest you? Is the lack of nostalgia something you miss?

And I argue this thread is on-topic as it revolves games in the framework of retro vidya.

[Anonymous No.2358656]

Not retro and cash grabs.

[Anonymous No.2358660]

>>2358656
>cash grabs.

Okay, to put it differently, what makes retro games better than the modern ones?

[Anonymous No.2358667]

>>2358660
They actually have effort put in them.

[Anonymous No.2358680]

>>2358660
Is not that Retro games are so great or that there are no great modern games. The reason retro is so pulsar is that most modern games, particularly the most hyped ones are terrible and in hindsight is easy to see what games of the past were truly great.

As far as modern games with a Retro aesthetic the only good reason for that is if a team (or solo) has limited resources. If it's a conscious design choice then it's probably shit.

[Anonymous No.2358692]

>>2358680
If you're truly honest about, modern games are trash.
Used to be if you bought a game with a player's choice sticker on your were going to get a good game.
Now you buy a top selling game you end up with CoD.

[Anonymous No.2358698]

>>2358680
I'm not talking about new AAA games like CoD or Bloodborne or whatever the kids are playing these days, I'm talking about games that could have fitted aesthetically and conceptually on the NES or SNES. Games like Electronic Super Joy, 8bitboy, Dark Void Zero, VVVV, Dustforce, Gunman Clive, La-Mulana, Luftrausers, Mr. Bree, Shovel Knight, Super AMazing Wagon Adventure, Ninja Senki, They Bleed Pixels, etc.

Many choose, as you say, to use pixel art because of limited resources, but what makes a game shit if the choose to do so out of a liking to the aesthetics?

[Razz No.2358706]

>>2358667
>>2358680
>>2358692

Jesus christ, this is such a fucking /v/-style thing to say. There are tons of great non-/vr/ games and if you don't think that then you really need to get your head out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.2358709]

>>2358653
I'm not sure this is really on-topic for this board.

It's hard to talk about "modern-retro" games because they aren't a homogeneous group. There are games with aesthetic allusions to classic games but which have nothing to do with them in terms of gameplay or implementation startegies, and games where the way the game is written and style of gameplay is much more in the spirit of classic games, but aesthetically modern, and everything in-between.

Personally, I prefer to see someone write homebrew for a classic console rather than make a lame appropriation of the aesthetic. I could go into why but I would have to write way too much.

Personally I don't think this thread is on-topic for this board.

[Anonymous No.2358739]

>>2358706
Good job not reading.

[Anonymous No.2358743]

>>2358706
For some reason some think you can't enjoy both. I never understood that.
I lean heavily toward retro games but I still play new releases once in a while and really enjoy what I see for the most part.

[Anonymous No.2358749]

>>2358706
I literally said
>>2358680
>It's... not that there are no great modern games
It's really more of a /vr/ thing to claim that there aren't - but they're few and far between. One can compare "years in gaming" articles on Wikipedia and clearly see the rise and fall of quality over decades.

>>2358698
Choosing to use a dated aesthetic when it's not a necessity is a clear and flagrant appeal to nostalgia which is automatically an enormous red flag. Of those games you listed only Shovel Knight isn't shit and it's only not shit because it so faithfully imitated its inspirations. It's Duck Tales with Castlevania level design and Mega Man art design. It's still a cash grab but it's actually worth playing since Duck Tales had a charming mechanic that was never adequately fleshed out.

If you want to make a Retro style name that isn't shit you'd better choose carefully, imitate faithfully and above all have a true love for the entire package not just "an appreciation for the aesthetic". BARF

[Anonymous No.2358842]

>>2358653
I like many of them, like VVVVVV, Shovel Knight, Cave Story, etc. These games are just as good and in some cases better than many classic games. A lot of people don't like to face that for whatever reason, they'd be happier to say that there hasn't been a good video game in 87 years.

[Anonymous No.2358849]

>>2358842
No body is saying there's no more good games. You people need to learn to read.
>VVVVVV, Shovel Knight, Cave Story, etc. These games are just as good and in some cases better than many classic games
Made me laugh. Those games are inferior just comparing graphics.

[Anonymous No.2358853]

>>2358849
>No body is saying there's no more good games. You people need to learn to read.
I wasn't comparing my argument to anyone else's argument. That was my first post in the thread and I didn't read any other posts other than OP's.
>Made me laugh. Those games are inferior just comparing graphics.
I don't really care about graphics, I care about gameplay.

[Anonymous No.2358863]

>>2358853
>I don't really care about graphics, I care about gameplay.
The graphics are part of the game.
I guess some people like a mish mash of retro games thrown into one game. Not for me and I don't consider it all that great of gameplay.

[Anonymous No.2359143]

>>2358849
>Shovel Knight
>Inferior graphics
Care to elaborate?

[Anonymous No.2359150]

>>2359143
There are snes games that look better. Like Dreamland 3.

Metal Slug or SotN looks infinitely better also.

[Anonymous No.2359163]

I have yet to see an indie modern game that looks like Little Samson, for example.

It seems it's pretty hard for indie devs to actually get the perfect balance between elaborated graphics and hardware limitations of older consoles.
I find most indie games graphics are either way too simple, or go overboard and look like some sort of modernized old game but you can tell a lot of the graphics are modern.

Then there's the gameplay, indie games rely on specific mechanics that sometimes get old too fast, it's hard to make everlasting appealing games that make you want to play over and over just for score.
Don't forget that, besides all the hardware limitation, limited color palettes and pixel graphics, there were teams composed of very talented people back in the day.

You can't really compare the teams of people from Nintendo, Capcom, Konami or Sega to small indie devs who are usually just one guy most of the times. As good as these indie developers could be, it's kind of unfair to compare them to teams of japanese devs from big companies from the 80s and 90s. Yes, I think the difference is easily noticeable.

However, there are good indie games, "retro-style" or not, but that's not /vr/

[Anonymous No.2359186]

>>2358653
They're just not the same. They're often too puzzle-heavy, have modern conveniences (e.g. checkpoints,) and lack the blood-boiling action of older games.

[Anonymous No.2359192]

>>2359150
Hell, I'd say that later NES games look much better. Shovel Knight (from what I've played) has pretty ugly sprites and color choices. I say that simply based on aesthetics, not on graphical detail, of course.

If I'm being completely honest though, I think that the biggest difference between classic and modern development is that there are way too few restrictions on devs these days. When you have millions of pixels on screen, a billion colors at your disposal, can put in any kind of music you want and at any length, all this stuff, all these options, it severely undercuts the need to be creative and inventive. When you go work on something like an NES, suddenly every decision matters, and you have to be very clever (and compromising) about what you do and how you do it. I argue that with modern game stuff as it is, anyone could make a game that was pleasing to eye and ear. Give those teams severe limitations like on classic systems, and you'll quickly separate the great from the good.

[Anonymous No.2359197]

>>2359192
I agree.

Why there should be more homebrew like Pier Solar.

Now there's a nonshit and very hard working indie team. Now if only I could get a copy...

[Anonymous No.2359202]

>>2358653
I think, if they really wanted to recapture some of the old magic, they should make it more legit. What the hell do i mean, "legit", you may ask.

Some of the base, intrinsic aspects of retro games have to do with the overall structure of the game itself. They had only so many bits of data to work with, limited colours and so forth. Yet they still managed amazing things.

If i were a dev, what I'd do is set out a framework. we/I have X amount of data to work with. With that in mind, development should then stretch and bend that limit to the bleeding edge. graphics, gameplay, whatever it is stuffed and used to the gills.

I think then you end up with someone more "traditional". Yes, it'd be a blast to have hand-drawn pixel art for every frame of that boss fight...but we're working with the space of a NES cart, so how to we make it awesome otherwise?

Modern stuff can always add another layer of polygons to airbrush over flaws, with the limits of the older tech, there's fewer ways to gloss over any blemish or rushing.

Just something i'd like to see...not "in the spirit of" old games, but stuff built to actually run on the old tech, if possible.

[Anonymous No.2359204]

>>2359186
This all the way. Old games are incredibly engaging, mostly due to their challenge. Those games really demanded that the player step up, where modern games are done from a more relaxation mindset and prefer to step down for the player.

[Anonymous No.2359207]

>>2358749
I kinda agree with this. I'm not gonna bash any games that choose a retro style or whatever(it's their choice. If it's good, who cares?), but if people make a game that's supposed to be like...RETRO2THEMAX, then the least they can do is try to replicate(not imitate and be a clone) and do what made the classics what they are.

[Anonymous No.2359217]

>>2359197
haven't played that one, is it any good? The cheapass in me says no to new cart games with how expensive they are, but at the same time I can totally agree to supporting people doing good work. I'd have to play it first so I didn't get burned.

As another point of what I said, I think that graphical limitations actually help you make better-looking games. Now of course you're thinking I'm crazy with a statement like that, but hear me out. In logo design, a huge emphasis is put on making things recognizable in different forms. Black and white on print is a big one, but even weirder ones are typically expected in a good logo. McDonald's logo, for example, is excellently designed. You could put it in all kinds of formats, orientations, materials, etc. and still have people correctly identify it. Similarly, look at Mario. His overalls, mustache, and hat are so iconic you can recognize them both in black and white and in very low-detail images (ie. 8-bit stuff on the NES/GB). That he was designed on a low-detail system was really important; Mario only got a mustache because you couldn't identify his face otherwise, and he only got overalls so you could tell he was moving his arms back and forth. Concessions made by the developer to work on the hardware ended up being some of the most defining aspects of the character design.

Another way it helps to make better-looking games is through limiting colors available. By working with only a limited range of colors, you are forced to consider every color choice and pick the most important ones possible. What's more, you tend to go for stuff that goes together well, because nothing damns a low-detail game more than poor color design. In fact, simply having a smaller pool of colors used helps to make an image, any image, look more cohesive as a whole. So in using less, you actually achieve more. That's my take on it at least.

[Anonymous No.2359224]

I hate how indie "retro" games have pixels ten times normal size.

[Anonymous No.2359226]

>>2359217
>haven't played that one, is it any good?
>Now if only I could get a copy...
Haha. Looks amazing though. It's on steam for cheap but I really want to play on my Genesis.

I don't hate the "simple graphics" art style. They can look very good. I don't like pseudo 8/16/32 bit games.

[Anonymous No.2359227]

>>2358653
I like stuff like Locomalito's Gaurodan
It feels retro without simply being low-resolution game. That seems to be a common theme among a lot of retro-styled games, that they're graphically retro, but not really retro in terms of gameplay. And even then, they may not even be aesthetically retro, so much as they're low-resolution. Most of these newer developers don't take into account the hardware that retro games used, so something as simple as their color variety may ruin the retro feel.

[Anonymous No.2359235]

>>2359202
The closest I think you can get to that is just using emulators and their respective toolkits (open source or otherwise), but the homebrew communities for old hardware is so incredibly small and the effort required to actually develop good things for them is very high.

Making a framework that imposes space/time/output constraints would be an interesting exercise, but you'd have to make some really good games with it for it to get any sort of traction. It would probably also want different sets of constraints to simulate different retro systems like NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.

[Wisdom-Kun No.2359254]

>>2358653
LISA
That's all I have to say about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNXx26pRtcg

[Anonymous No.2359263]

>>2359227
Locomalito is one of the few independant devolopers that "gets" it. Nowhere in his games is there any trendy, faux-retro nonsense. He's just someone that loves traditional arcade games and wants to keep making them.

[Anonymous No.2359349]

It depends.

Some games try too hard to run on nostalgia and just try to make you think "hey man the 80's and 90's were SUPER RAD" and shit like that.

Some people are under the impression that ever old game was as hard as Battletoads, so they have to make their game equally frustrating.

Some using retro as an excuse to have lazy graphics and shit gameplay. These people are the biggest ones that don't get it. They view "retro" as an artstyle. But the devs back then were trying to push the systems as hard as they could. They didn't settle on amalgamations of a handful of pixels because they thought it looked good, it was literally the best they could do. And some devs these days just dick around in MS paint have the audacity to call it "retro".

Not only that, but most games from back then would put their graphics to shame anyways.

Then you get some games like Shovel Knight that just focuses on being a good, well designed game. There's much more to the game than the retro inspired artstyle.

It's a damn shame that "pixel art" now has such a negative connotation. Because I look at brilliantly detailed 2D games, something like Metal Slug, and I think "why can't people do THIS when they want to make a retro game?

[Anonymous No.2359352]

I have increasingly low tolerance for lazy devs who lean on the word “indie” to write off their game’s shortcomings.

[Anonymous No.2359357]

>>2359352
Yeah.

If they just said the truth like "this was made by three people that know fuck all about video game design" and were responsive to criticism, things would be better for everyone.

They could actually grow to become competent devs, rather than just using "indie" and "retro" to deflect criticism.

[Anonymous No.2359359]

>>2359202
I agree that it is harder to make a good game on the NES than for a PC today with the limitation of the NES and all. Yes it is impressive how compact they made the games, but that does not mean the games are BETTER on NES than modern games.

[Anonymous No.2359361]

>>2359204
Modern platform games are often much harder than old games.

[Anonymous No.2359365]

>>2359361
There's a difference between shit like super meat boy and a game like Castlevania on NES.

[Anonymous No.2359369]

>>2359365
Yes, the difference is that in Castlevania you have to play over and over again the parts you have mastered, which makes the game tedious to one point. Games like Super Meat Boy let you start where you die, and make you do much harder things. I find the latter to be much more interesting as you don't need to play the easy parts over and over again, you can focus on what you are struggling with. I wish more retro games were like that.

[Anonymous No.2359373]

They add the (pardon me for saying) shitty graphics but not the LOVE. People used to love their games. Now it's just rushing to get it out and hold peoples attention long enough to get the cash flowing.

[Anonymous No.2359376]

>>2359369
No the difference is with retro games resources were limited. A developer had to find interesting ways to add to a game. Like invisible/hidden shit in walls.

Unlike a modern indie developer who has basically unlimited resources. To make a game like super meat boy hard they just throw bullshit everywhere. Spikes all over the fucking place just a chaotic environment because that's easy to make.

Anyone that's played retro games has probably done the same shit in excite bike. Like making the whole track grass for your friend.

[Anonymous No.2359382]

>>2359373
You act like there weren't shameless cash grabs back then. Trust me, there was tons of it. Possibly even more back then than there is today.

Robert Kotick, the CEO of Activision, gets a lot of shit today for Call of Duty and whatnot, but he's been doing his thing since the late 80's.

You just remember the good shit. 20 years from now, all the bullshit today will be forgotten, and people will mostly only remember the games they loved and had fun with.

People say the N64 was the golden era, I remember my time playing Superman 64 and I think "fuck you".

[Anonymous No.2359385]

>>2359382
>You just remember the good shit. 20 years from now, all the bullshit today will be forgotten, and people will mostly only remember the games they loved and had fun with.
No it wont be forgotten because the bullshit are top sellers.

[Anonymous No.2359387]

I think there are plenty of modern games that are done well in a retro style, but I think to many anons are focusing to much on the visual elements of "modern retro games" and comparing them to the best of the retro ones. Comparing the graphics of certain modern ones to the best of retro ones is a terrible comparison and cherry picking at its finest.

Like I think this discussion is to much on graphics and not on discussing gameplay. Just because it doesn't look like certain NES or SNES games doesn't mean it doesn't play better than them. What really matters is the gameplay.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Axiom Verge? Looks like a modern retro style game, but I don't have a PS4.

[Anonymous No.2359390]

>>2359387
>I think there are plenty of modern games that are done well in a retro style, but I think to many anons are focusing to much on the visual elements of "modern retro games" and comparing them to the best of the retro ones. Comparing the graphics of certain modern ones to the best of retro ones is a terrible comparison and cherry picking at its finest.
How is comparing an indie game to the art style that "inspired" them cheery picking? Wtf?

[Anonymous No.2359392]

>>2359390
I'm mainly referring >>2359150

Just because certain games for the SNES may look better than Shovel Knight doesn't make it inferior game, graphics wise. Comparing specific examples of the better SNES games without even considering all the ones it did look better than.

[Anonymous No.2359396]

>>2359385
I meant more what you personally will remember.

It's the reason why people paint such an idyllic picture of retro gaming, because they only remember the good games. Or had the amazing fortune of somehow only playing good games. They have to dig deep to get to the games they didn't like.

When i think of my time playing the Genesis, I first think of Sonic, Mortal Kombat 3, Vectorman, all the classics. Then after awhile I remember that I probably owned more games that were shit than games that were actually good.

The good game to shit game ratio was fucked back then. It's much better nowadays. Call of Duty may be just a churned out soulless product, but at least it mostly works as intended.

[Anonymous No.2359405]

>>2359392
>Just because certain games for the SNES may look better than Shovel Knight doesn't make it inferior game, graphics wise.
There are NES and arcade games from the 80s that look better.
NES - Kirby's Adventure
NES - Dragon’s Lair
Arcade - Final Fight
Arcade - Ghosts 'n Goblins

[Anonymous No.2359410]

>>2359396
When I think of all the great SNES games I played, I think of my copies of Super Metroid, Yoshi's Island, and Donkey Kong Country. But than I think a bit deeper and I now I'm remembering all the other games I have. I don't even know how I came to get them but somehow I have copies of the Wizard of Oz and Lord of the Rings game.

[Anonymous No.2359413]

>>2359396
>It's the reason why people paint such an idyllic picture of retro gaming, because they only remember the good games. Or had the amazing fortune of somehow only playing good games. They have to dig deep to get to the games they didn't like.

I've said this so many times

It used to be if you bought a game with a player's choice sticker you got a good game.
Now if you buy a top selling game you get CoD.

>The good game to shit game ratio was fucked back then. It's much better nowadays. Call of Duty may be just a churned out soulless product, but at least it mostly works as intended.
I'm not even getting into that fucking stupid argument. Especially with the mobile shit of today.

Modern gaming is shit. Ever since 6th gen I've just been playing on PC. Though now I'm looking for scraps of good games because I got a wii u for WWHD. And that shit's looking like the first Nintendo console ever to not get an exclusive Zelda game... Holy shit.

[Anonymous No.2359421]

>>2359413
You know what, I forgot about mobile gaming. I retract that statement.

Also, you do know that there is a Zelda game in development for the Wii U right now?

Not much is known. They've shown off a bit, but they're very early in development. The biggest detail we know is that they're apparently going against all the standard conventions and what's become the "norm" for the series.

Which they kinda did with LBW, but they seem to be going much further.

[Anonymous No.2359429]

>>2359421
It got pushed back a year. Which don't get me wrong, I'm all for Nintendo polishing that game back to further polish it. But then they announced the NX. It's looking like this Zelda is going to be on that system.

IF, and it's a big IF, that happens this will be the first Nintendo console with out an exclusive Zelda game. That's a really bad sign and I'd probably just give up on console gaming altogether if Nintendo pulls that shit.

And not to get too far into doom and gloom because nobody even know if that will happen but it would also serve as a great example of modern gaming really going to shit if even Nintendo loses faith in their consoles.

Nintendo has always supported its consoles so I'll be surprised if that happens but you never know.

[Anonymous No.2359434]

>>2359413
>Modern gaming is shit. Ever since 6th gen I've just been playing on PC. Though now I'm looking for scraps of good games because I got a wii u for WWHD. And that shit's looking like the first Nintendo console ever to not get an exclusive Zelda game... Holy shit.


Dude stop your fucking defening and get it together. There were good games and shit games back then and there are good games and shit games now. And guess what, there are going to be good games and shit games tomorrow. There are plenty of great modern games, maybe you haven't played them, or maybe you have and just didn't like them. And ya know what, if that is the case, and you don't like them, that's fine, I respect your opinion anon. But you're a fool if you actually believe that "modern gaming is shit."

[Anonymous No.2359435]

>>2359434
Hey if you like games like CoD and all those other FPSes more power to you. You go right ahead and keep buying them. Just know you're supporting a shit gaming industry that releases broken games filled with micro transactions. But maybe you like that.

[Anonymous No.2359441]

>>2359429
Personally, I have enough games for my Wii U that I feel like my purchase was very much justified. Even without a Zelda game. But I want to say it was specifically announced as a Wii U game, so I wouldn't worry.

The business side of Nintendo confuses me to no end, but their developers have been pumping out a lot of good stuff these past couple years. Super Mario 3D World and Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze are pure platforming nirvana. Luigi's Mansion, a game I always thought was underrated, got a very good sequel. Mario Kart 8 is amazing, and with the update tomorrow, will basically be turned into F-Zero. And from what I've heard, they've been very supportive of devs that they've been working with. Bayonetta 2 and Wonderful 101 are top tier action games.

So I wish the business side would get their act together.

Also, we're getting all kinds of off-topic here. I like video games.

[Anonymous No.2359443]

>>2359435
Are you that fucking jaded? It's okay if you don't keep up with the modern game scene, you can admit it, but if all you think about when someone talks about modern gaming are FPS's and micro-transactions, you really need to change your perspective, do some research, and actually PLAY modern games.

[Anonymous No.2359448]

>>2359441
>Luigi's Mansion, a game I always thought was underrated, got a very good sequel.
?

>I like video games.
I love video games.

[Anonymous No.2359450]

>>2359443
List me the top selling games of 8th gen. Maybe that'll smack your blinders off, champ.

[Anonymous No.2359458]

>>2359441
Last I checked, Mario Kart was turned into a Mario Party-esque casual game. Did they actually go back to the series roots of being a challenging racer or something?

[Anonymous No.2359460]

>>2359458
It's a kart racing game. It was never that challenging.

[Anonymous No.2359463]

>>2359460
The original (Don't know about 64, I haven't played it since the 90s) is, at the least, a self respecting racing game. It doesn't rubber band and you can't automatically take out the guy in first. First time I played one of the newer ones, that struck me as something like you'd see in Mario Party. Actually doing well in the games doesn't matter more than about 50%, because the game hands out random points in the end. Not F-Zero hard, though, no.

[Anonymous No.2359464]

>>2359463
I never really considered rubber banding all that bad. You're talking about a game with power ups. It's not that serious.

If you want to see bad rubber banding play CTR.

[Anonymous No.2359465]

>>2359458
It's no less casual than any other version of Mario Kart. If you're referring to rubber banding, I haven't noticed any egregious examples of it. Although they do get very nasty and tough to beat on 150cc.

It's generally pretty fair with the items and cases like this webm are very, very rare.

It's soon getting a free update that will add a 200cc mode, and it's fast as shit.

It also has DLC, but it's actually fairly priced and adds new cups, characters, and karts to the game.

[Anonymous No.2359469]

>>2359450
It's not about blinders, it's not about top selling games, it's about you completely disregarding modern gaming because you don't like certain aspects/games in modern gaming. It's okay not to like things that other people like.
Hell I don't even like most of those games either, but I'm not going to say that modern gaming is shit just because I don't like some of them.

Seriously all I got form that was you saying "I don't like the games that sold well and that other people do like, therefore modern gaming is shit."

[Anonymous No.2359473]

>>2359469
Are you seriously that blind? All the top selling games on PS4 and xbox release broke. Why would I support that?

The top selling games represent the console. I didn't have to look past Super Mario Bros 3 on NES and need to find some hidden gem like Little Sampson to enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.2359475]

>>2359463
>because the game hands out random points in the end

Not at all. It gives you points based on where you placed. First place always gets 10 points, and it goes down from there.

At the end of the cup (four races), it tallies up the points to determine the winners.

It's how pretty much any racing tournament works. Nintendo still keeps all the random bullshittery confined to Mario Party.

[Anonymous No.2359478]

>>2359475
I formed my sentence poorly because I'm tired. I meant to say that the random effect of attacks that target the first place player reminded me of the randomness in Mario Party.

I played the Wii one, so this isn't even that recently. Whether the new one is good or not doesn't really matter that much, since I only have a 3DS and Vita as far as new "consoles" go. I was just surprised by the excitement about the newest because I wasn't too hyped up by the last one I played.

[Anonymous No.2359479]

>>2358653
I feel that all these games are 30 year olds child hood dreams. They grew up playing NES and must of always wanted to make a video game.

I grew up in the Snes era and all my dream games are 16 bit, so I just assume that this is the case.

Niggas living out their childhood wet dreams.


Most of these games suck though, its just Zelda or Metroidvania + gimmicks

[Anonymous No.2359483]

>>2359473
But this is about more than consoles though. this is about modern gaming. What about Wii U and 3DS? What about PC gaming and the indie scene as well. You're too jaded man.

Which also brings us to another unfair comparison, the NES days are over, it's had its time. But for these consoles, they are still actively making games, hell your precious Little Samson came out after the SNES was already released.

[Anonymous No.2359485]

>>2359483
>What about Wii U
I own one. I like a few games on it.
>and 3DS?
Haven't owned a mobile game since GBA
>What about PC gaming
Been on a PC since 99
>and the indie scene as well.
No
>You're too jaded man.
No I love video games. I just hate modern gaming. Not a fan of generic fpses. Sorry.


>Which also brings us to another unfair comparison, the NES days are over, it's had its time. But for these consoles, they are still actively making games, hell your precious Little Samson came out after the SNES was already released.
They have all been out for at least 3 years. Do you really think there's a game coming out that will beat CoD? Didn't happen last generation.

[Anonymous No.2359495]

>>2358653
I grew up with the NES and such. I've loved most of the improvements made over the years. I tend to play retro games strictly for nostalgia. If a game doesn't tap into that in some way, I just find it outdated.

I'm really sick of pixel and sprite indie games at this point. I don't see why old gameplay sensibilities aren't put into a game that looks like it's under 20 years old. Either way, I don't even try indies anymore unless they aren't aiming for that retro feel.

[Anonymous No.2359496]

>>2359485
But the whole point isn't that modern gaming sucks, it's you think it sucks because you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with FPS's. I don't particularly enjoy them either, but just because the general trend and what's popular now are FPS's, and that's whats selling, doesn't mean that modern gaming is shit. Modern gaming extends past what the top selling games are and once you get past those FPS's at the top(which you admit to not being a fan of) you will find plenty of good modern games.

[Anonymous No.2359505]

>>2359496
>There's nothing wrong with FPS's.
No and I love them. But are you telling me there's nothing wrong with CoD?


I don't put blinders on. What 8th gen has to offer as its top games are for the most part complete garbage. These are games that I wouldn't give a shit about if the company went under. They are that bad.
They release broke
The have shittiest DLC only rivaled by mobile
Are only supported for a few years
Gimped to shit
And above all else, they are modern gaming.

[Anonymous No.2359508]

>>2359496
This is 4chan, Everyone here loves to generalise. That's why you constantly see threads like
>Suddenly [insert board] thinks

see what I did there?

[Anonymous No.2359512]

>>2359508
I fail to see how comparing top selling games is a generalization. However you want to justify your blinders I guess.

[Anonymous No.2359520]

>>2359505
that's bullshit. Your gripe isn't with modern gaming it's with CoD. You're comparing a generation of games that hasn't been finished to generations that have. Look at the best selling games for the PS3 for example. No CoD games in the top 5. Fucking God of War 3 sole more than CoD.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but modern gaming extends past the top selling games. i'm not defending games that have those problems you say, those are serious issues. However you can't use that as a basis for the argument of saying modern gaming is shit without even looking at other ones, that don't have those problems. Just because CoD has a lot of issues but is still popular and heavily bought, doesn't mean modern gaming is shit.

[Anonymous No.2359538]

>>2359520
>that's bullshit. Your gripe isn't with modern gaming it's with CoD. You're comparing a generation of games that hasn't been finished to generations that have. Look at the best selling games for the PS3 for example. No CoD games in the top 5. Fucking God of War 3 sole more than CoD.

Some of the top selling games of 8th gen.

Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare on PS4
-Released in broken state and garbage game
Grand Theft Auto V on PS4
-Released in broken state
FIFA 15 on PS4
-Sports game woohoo
New Super Mario Bros. U on WII U
Destiny on PS4
-Released in broken state
Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare on Xbox
-Released in broken state and garbage game
Mario Kart 8 on WII U
Nintendo Land on WII U
Watch Dogs on PS4
-Released in broken state and garbage game
Assassin's Creed: Unity on PS4
-Released in broken state and garbage game

I'm not signaling out CoD. There's far too many garbage top selling games.


Oh and for PS3 the top 5 games were
Grand Theft Auto V
Call of Duty: Black Ops II
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3
Call of Duty: Black Ops
Gran Turismo 5

Source vgchartz

So yes modern gaming is all CoD and garbage. But there are a few good games still. Far and few between. It's impressive the kind of blinders you have though.

And I'm enjoying MK8 btw.

[Anonymous No.2359541]

The biggest problem some of them face is how they're basically just rose tinted depictions of 30 year old games. Let's go with the NES for this example. Pick any 10 games randomly, and you're guaranteed to come across games that were crudely realized, looked like shit, and were only built to squeeze money from the mahjong or baseball or pachinko audience. While the console could only display so may colors on screen, some games go through the extra mile and want to fill the entire screen with one color, with three shades for needless detail. The NES was also released in a time when game developers still haven't gotten past the arcade game philosophy, and as a result, the games are archaic by comparison to slightly newer consoles, like the Genesis or Game Boy. This is evidenced when the NES' library almost exclusively consisted of arcade ports, and the original games resembled arcade games in their structure.

NES games were rarely ambitious. They had a finite number of locales that were distinct. They generally had less than a dozen stages, each not even 5 minutes in length, only artificially lengthened due to cheap enemy placement and a physics engine built to knock your player into the nearest pit, should he ever get hit. Many NES games are incredibly forgettable, and many Japanese releases have been given the prestigious title of "Kuso-ge", a term referring to games that have zero redeeming qualities aside from their sheer badness. Then you have the same retro games playing EXTREMELY fast and loose with the limitations, to the point where they only have a passing resemblance to the console it's supposed to represent. NES games looked and played the way they did because of how the machine worked, most design choices weren't arbitrarily made for the hell of it.

[Anonymous No.2359545]

>>2359541
>Pick any 10 games randomly
So like going to blockbuster in the 90s?
I can guarantee the game will pop in and just play. Maybe pop it in and out a few times and reset.

Try that with a modern game.

[Anonymous No.2359581]

Cave story, made by a single indi dev was very good. It had that retro feels to it

[Anonymous No.2359589]

>>2359186
True, but they are also more appeling to younger gamers, one of the reasons why i didn't finish many of the games in the 90 is the difficulty of them. Yes it was much rewarding to finally complete a game, but many people will get discouraged before they get to that point. Shovel Knight did use save points, but in order to get all the treasure the player could destroy the save point allowing for harder gamplay and more retro feels

[Anonymous No.2359617]

>>2359581

This, IMO Cave Story is practically perfect.

[Anonymous No.2359625]

Indie devs do it as an appeal to nostalgia, and hipsters. If you're intentionally making your game look shitty then you're just a cash-grabber. You should always be striving to make your game look as good as possible.

Shovel Knight would've benefit from some graphical improvements honestly. It looks good, but it still looks like they were held back by some arbitrary limitations they put on themselves.

[Anonymous No.2359652]

>>2359625
Its highly debatable. Cave story graphic were very bad at first but that was mainly because one guy did all the work on the entire game. They were upgraded latter on but you still can set old graphic in the settings. I think 2d graphics don't age as bad as 3d graphics. I mean many snes games still looks good now, where ff7 aldough great graphics at the time looks very bad and dated

[Anonymous No.2359654]

>>2358653
>What is your opinion on modern-day games which try to capture the essence of retro vidya?
Bullshit made to appeal jaded wannabes and hipsters. Those people try to monkey games from another era but don't understand how those game were designed and built. They are not developing something based on the natural limitations of the time, they are not forced to realistically compete with other devs in the environment of the time, with the artistic and basic design conventions of the time, they simply mimic what they saw and played when they were kids. Even the noblest and most well intentioned efforts end up being very artificial and full of glaring design problems, Pier Solar is the prime example to that.
>Actually, if you enjoy hard platformers, modern indie games are usually much harder than games on the NES for instance.
No, just no. There are maybe two exceptions to that and are way overhyped by pretentious people with no standards at all.

[Anonymous No.2359708]

>>2359163
>I have yet to see an indie modern game that looks like Little Samson, for example.

That easily looks like it could have been a scene lifted from Shovel Knight.

[Anonymous No.2359928]

>>2359150
Shovel Knight is modeled after NES games, so no shit it looks worse than SNES games. Might as well point out it looks worse than Crysis.

[Anonymous No.2359959]

>>2358692
I still maintain that the reason Call of Duty is so popular is that it's doing a very good job of entertaining it's core player base. Which is fundamentally the purpose of a game. If Call of Duty was genuinely a terrible game, it wouldn't have ever garnered the popularity that it has or continued so long as a series.

That I don't like the games, and that you don't like the games is really beside the point. So when you complain that modern popular games are shit, all you're really doing is complaining that you are no longer the core demographic that games are being made to appeal to.

The reality is that we're living in an age where more games are being made for more types of gamers than ever before. Sure the big name games may well not do it for you, but if you can't find anything new that you enjoy playing these days then you're not really a fan of the hobby.

[Anonymous No.2359987]

>>2359235
>the effort required to actually develop good things for them is very high
But not nearly as high as it was in the time of those consoles. The modern affordances we have are incredible, not to mention all the games whose code you can disassemble and study. That's what makes me most sad about the limited amount of homebrew produced for consoles. (And, FWIW, I'm not talking out my ass here; I have released homebrew console games.)

[Anonymous No.2359992]

>>2359369
There's a big difference between having to do something right once, never having to do it again, and having to do that challenging thing right every time you play. This is something modern devs who embraced checkpoints do not understand. If you can't see the difference, I'm sure you think a game like Castlevania or Battletoads is just as hard with save states as without.

[Anonymous No.2360012]

>>2359992
I certainly agree there's a difference, but I don't necessarily agree that one is always a better design choice than the other. I think there's a place for both.

[Anonymous No.2360062]

>>2359485
>Haven't owned a mobile game since GBA
>Modern games are shit

[Anonymous No.2360075]

>>2359485
>No I love video games. I just hate modern gaming. Not a fan of generic fpses. Sorry.

There's FAR more to modern gaming than just FPSs, dude. That's like someone saying retro games suck because they're all just platformers and shmups.

[Anonymous No.2360093]

>>2359376
>Anyone that's played retro games has probably done the same shit in excite bike. Like making the whole track grass for your friend

This is a different thing altogether. Yeah, driving through grass is tedious but it isn't hard. If you fill a room with spikes and very specific wall jump combos you have to pull off, it's hard and has to be playtested thoroughly. I'm a not the person who talked about Super Meat Boy, but this does apply to games such as I Don't Wanna Be the Guy.

[Anonymous No.2360538]

>>2359163
Not all NES games looked like that.

[Anonymous No.2360572]

>>2359992
That is my point, there is a difference. And in my opinion it is a better game design to never having to something again when you've cleared it. Of course Castlevania and Battletoads aren't as hard with save states, but you see, it's not real difficulty IMO. Having to beat the three first levels in Battetoads over and over again because you struggle with the fourth level is tedious to me. Games should have unlimited with continues and lives I think. Of course, I do enjoy games which aren't like that, but it needs a bit more effort to bother to sit down and play such games because I will have to beat the first levels over and over before I can play the levels I really want to play and enjoy. Most modern "retro" games have fixed this, and I am glad.

[Anonymous No.2360584]

>>2360572
>And in my opinion it is a better game design to never having to something again when you've cleared it.

Not him, and that's a perfectly fine opinion to have. Just keep in mind that not everyone else feels the same way.

[Anonymous No.2360595]

>>2360572
I think part of this must be due to the unprecedented quantity of games people have access to now. These days, only counting games that you can easily access freely, there are far more games than anyone could play. So it makes sense to consume them as one-time items and move on.

Something I personally hold on to from the retro days is the satisfaction of playing a good game again and again, becoming better and better at it.

I had always hoped achievements would be a way to motivate people to really explore every corner of a game, and to experiment with playing it in many different ways, but of course this didn't happen.

[Anonymous No.2360619]

>>2360595
I too love to replay good games. There is nothing better when I am hung over on a Sunday to just relax and speedrun SMB1, even though I've played that game so many times.

>Something I personally hold on to from the retro days is the satisfaction of playing a good game again and again, becoming better and better at it.
This is a good point. I play Touhou, and there you play the same levels over and over untill you are good enough to progress. Almost nothing feels better than to clear a Touhou game as you are rewarded after training for a long time and seeing how you become better and better for each play. Come to think of it, that is a major factor for me running too. It's fun to see how you constantly improve over time.

[Anonymous No.2360629]

>>2360595
I agree with all of this. It used to be that you got a game and that was likely going to be months at least before getting another. So you spent a lot of time playing and mastering them. Also, although there were guide books for some games it was nothing like the internet being right there to tell you exactly what the most efficient way to beat it is. (and call you a faggot if you play it differently)

I think that's the biggest reason why achievements didn't work out like you hoped. It should be an incentive to explore, but most people just want to "complete" the game and move on. So they look up what to do, do it and that's that.

The good news though is that I find many new games still very playable in the old style. There have been a few that I've seen people call out for being way too easy, but that I got a decent challenge from. But I think a large part of that is from going in blind and learning the game for myself.

[Anonymous No.2360642]

One of my main problems with "retro inspired games" like the one for Angry Video Game Nerd and that River City Ransom reboot was that they claim that they're 8-bit reimaginings, when they look like something that could easily pass for an early turbografx-16 or Sega Genesis game. I'm aware that it's boaderline autistic of me of me to say something like that, but is it too much to ask for something that's inspired by the era to be held to the same limitations of the era? Because the only game so far that I've actually seen go out of it's way to do that is MURI.

Also, don't use crude as fuck and embrassingly godawful pixels as a crutch to accentuate your free-form, 2deep4u vidya when could have hired a decent at best pixel artist like the one Jontron has for mere peanuts. I'll be damned if I see pixel art go the way of Airbrush art where it's only used at flea markets for make-shift apparel for poor white trash

[Anonymous No.2360651]

What do people think of Mega Man 9 and 10?

[Anonymous No.2360654]

>>2360642
>Also, don't use crude as fuck and embrassingly godawful pixels as a crutch to accentuate your free-form, 2deep4u vidya when could have hired a decent at best pixel artist like the one Jontron has for mere peanuts. I'll be damned if I see pixel art go the way of Airbrush art where it's only used at flea markets for make-shift apparel for poor white trash

Using pixel art is a way to create visuals with limited resources. The guy making title cards for Jontron does not need to put that much effort in to it, as it is just a titlecard, not a complete game.

[Anonymous No.2360656]

>>2360642
>but is it too much to ask for something that's inspired by the era to be held to the same limitations of the era?
Maybe it is, but I feel the same way, which is why I feel more charitably towards new titles for old platforms (console or early computers) over games that fake it.

[Anonymous No.2360658]

>>2360651
I never played them, but they seemed pretty credible as these things go. Much closer adherence to the look and feel of the platforms they're imitating than most games that try to do this kind of thing.

[Anonymous No.2360662]

>>2360642
The problem I have with this attitude is that even when a game comes out that is purposefully limiting it's resolution, palette and sound to closely resemble an actual NES game as in the case of Shovel Knight, people still shit on it for it's aesthetics. I haven't seen anyone say they hate all the indie games, but do like Shovel Knight because it tries to be NES faithful.

The reality is that doing good art, especially good pixel art is quite hard. Doing it and limiting yourself to a specific resolution and palette is even harder. Most indie games have shitty graphics for the reason most roguelikes (especially the good ones) are still mostly asciis or simple tile sets. They're made by people obsessed with game design who want to try and make something. Artists are typically a different kettle of fish and not everyone has the resources to hire a decent one.

[Anonymous No.2360667]

>>2360654
Well, the guy does do actual pixel animations, pretty fluid ones if memory serves, and animation isn't easy.

[Anonymous No.2360675]

>>2360667
The guy is great, no doubt about it, but it would take much more time to make a whole game out of that, than just a title card. It is not feasible for most indie devs to put that much resources into their game.

[Anonymous No.2360724]

>>2359928
>>2359708
Are you trolling? The NES game looks better.
>>2359959
No it's a terrible game. CoD started out as one of the best fps series out there. CoD4 was the last real good one and WaW was pretty good too. After that it's just trash. None of the games after WaW released in a working state. I don't mean a minor glitch, you couldn't play the fucking game.
There's no redeeming factor to it because they haven't added on the prior games only stripped things away. And what they did add like outsourcing code, etc is shit.
>>2360075
>There's FAR more to modern gaming than just FPSs, dude. That's like someone saying retro games suck because they're all just platformers and shmups.
That person would have a point. However, there's no parallel to CoD in retro games. So the point you're making is pretty mute.
If the only retro games I liked were jrpgs then ya I don't like retro games as a whole. I like retro jrpgs. Just an example btw.

One of my other points is how all these top selling games release broken.

Another is all the dlc bullshit and fees that come with modern games.

[Anonymous No.2360729]

>>2360724
>and WaW was pretty good too

[Anonymous No.2360732]

>>2360729
Little baby got owned by MP40?

[Anonymous No.2361171]

>>2360662
>to closely resemble an actual NES game as in the case of Shovel Knight
>Shovel Knight
>closely resembles an actual NES game

yeah okay mate, next thing you'll tell me that the entirety of /vp/ consists of biologists because they can design unique dicks for all 700 or so Pokemon.

[Anonymous No.2361194]

>>2360729
>Introduced nazi zombies to the series
>bad

Seriously I think the only legit complaint is that trying to re-introduce tanks into the series was a huge clusterfuck in a game (mostly) designed for close quarters combat.

[Anonymous No.2361358]

Say what you want about the series, but I believe Five Nights at Freddies closely resembled mid-90's computer games. What's even more amusing is how the style of the art seems to have been "accidentally" made to look like an old PC game, as opposed to deliberately going for that look. FNaF would not have stood out much next to the likes of, say, Total Distortion or the like.

[Anonymous No.2361408]

I think that it has to make sense. A game like say, Hotline Miami and Shovel Knight are two games probably diminished by a fancy graphics or sprite work. The visuals work cohesively with what the game itself is setting out to do, weather making a trippy bloodbath or an advancement of the NES's most beloved games.

Games like Retro City Rampage are there to work off the nostalgia and while a solid title it isn't bringing anything new to the table.

I also understand smaller studios needing to utilize a simpler style to make a game, but simply biting off a system is kinda lazy. Cave Story, Dust Force and Super Meat Boy all have unique styles but use simple graphics. I'd like to see more of that.

[Anonymous No.2361415]

>>2360651
9 was excellent, better than a lot of the other main series titles. Yeah, I'm looking at you 8.

Mega-Man 9 had some great tunes and some great bosses, anyone who loves Mega-Man should get it, even if it doesn't come on an NES cart...Which, is my only real complaint. I'm surprised no one has made a ROM hack that can go on a NES cart!

10 is ok but not as good. If you got $15 in your PSN account or something, get 9 but 10 is ok too. Just kinda meh.

[Anonymous No.2361417]

>>2360572
>That is my point, there is a difference. And in my opinion it is a better game design to never having to something again when you've cleared it. Of course Castlevania and Battletoads aren't as hard with save states, but you see, it's not real difficulty IMO
what the fuck am i reading

what could 'real difficulty' possibly be in this topsy turvy world

[Anonymous No.2361420]

>>2361417
>what could 'real difficulty' possibly be in this topsy turvy world

Winning an argument on /v/.

[Anonymous No.2361427]

>>2358749
Theyre not "too few and far between" when compared to retro games. 2/10 NES or Sega Genesis games were good. Im not joking either.

4/10 modern games today i'd day are good.

[Anonymous No.2361432]

>>2361427
Why do people look at it with blinders? I really don't get it. The games that are advertised are fucking garbage.

You'd have a hard time names 1 bad Player's choice game.
Not the case with the top sellers of today. You'd have a hard time naming 1 good one.

>4/10 modern games today i'd day are good.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.2361437]

I have not played a retro style game that was better than the best NES / SNES / GEN games. Today's indie games look and play like art and tech demos. Not many are addictive, fun. They don't take you to a different world. Most are too hard, grind rpg style, or dialogue box filled. The level design and graphics are minimal with little imagination. Habbo Hotel pixel art is more imaginative than modern games. The last game that really took me to a new place and had good gameplay was RE5. Before that the best was many Ps2 games. The biggest gamer market have played the classics and modern games and know which games are shit. The way games are promoted on IGN and rumored about, and pushed into the spotlight with controversy makes me sad to have been a gamer right now. The worst gamers are no longer the psycho kid that went to the arcade too much. Now it is fat guys complaining on the net and teens who are assholes in online games.

[Anonymous No.2361449]

>>2361437
>I have not played a retro style game that was better than the best NES / SNES / GEN games

Then you sir, have not played Shovel Knight. That game IMHO is on par with the greatest any of those consoles ever spit out.

[Anonymous No.2361452]

>>2361437
>and pushed into the spotlight with controversy makes me sad to have been a gamer right now.
I'm the guy saying modern gaming is shit and I'm not sad to be a gamer right now.

I actually think because modern games have become so shit its had a lot of people commit effort into new things for old stuff. Like Flashcarts, drive emulators, rgbmods, scalers, emulation, etc. The generation that had the NES basically really started it and it's only been growing with each console generation.

So ya modern gaming may all be, broken at release games, drama bullshit that has nothing to do with video games, and just general garbage but there's some good that came out of it.

I don't see console gaming getting better only worse. A collapse it needed at this point.

Now if you're someone growing up right now and your first console was 7th or 8th gen then you're sol.

[Anonymous No.2361602]

>>2358667
>>2358680
>>2358692

You all have some seriously fucked up memories of retro games. They're were every bit as guilty for the whole shovelware bullshit.

but then again, the pre-order nonsense these days...

>>2358749
>only Shovel Knight

Have you even played all of those other games? Or are you just talking about the one you both happened to play, and happened too like?

>>2358653
Honestly? Retro is so common now, it's not retro anymore.

[Anonymous No.2361612]

>>2361602
>You all have some seriously fucked up memories of retro games. They're were every bit as guilty for the whole shovelware bullshit.
I'm not talking about shovelware.

[Anonymous No.2361624]

>>2361452
>I don't see console gaming getting better only worse.

I wonder what this means for PC gaming. At one point, PC gaming was a niche that was only occupied by the most hardcore and enthusiastic of gamers, not to mention some people who were willing to part ways with a huge sum of cash. As time went on, PC gaming started gaining more traction, but it was still incomparable to console gaming since it very rarely got console ports. Now, since 7th gen, PC gaming has become more popular, if only due to certain games attracting people slowly but surely (TF2, even before it went F2P, had a HUGE impact on PC gaming despite being multiplatform), and with Sony no longer monopolizing software developers, PC became a real console with one major advantage. It can play console games as good, if not better, than the consoles can.

Now come to 8th gen, and what do you have? Consoles built with AMD parts, with x86 CPUs and modified 7XXX series GPUs. The PS4 being touted as "a supercharged PC". Sony making an entire campaign about amassing indie developers, who were mostly at home on PC due to a low entry barrier. Better social and multimedia capabilities, not unlike what computers could always do. Cross platform play with PC (at least in the case of Street Fighter 5) and (supposedly) streaming Xbox games to PC. MS famously announcing a form of DRM, not unlike what Steam uses. Saying that PC gaming is irrelevant nowadays is a bold statement to make, if anything, it's going to be the new standard.

Polite Sega.

[Anonymous No.2361684]

>>2358653
Hipster shit. You asked.
It's easy to make a game hard. it's hard to make a game challenging.

[Anonymous No.2361730]

>>2361624
>At one point, PC gaming was a niche that was only occupied by the most hardcore and enthusiastic of gamers.
>As time went on, PC gaming started gaining more traction, but it was still incomparable to console gaming since it very rarely got console ports.
>Now, since 7th gen, PC gaming has become more popular.
It was consoles that got ports of computer games. Console-to-PC ports became more common with the PS1. Aside from that, computer and console games were separate and we didn't have the multiplat system we have now.

The only reason why it might seem like computer games weren't relevant until very recently is because you are presumably young and grew up with consoles. Even many people 30 years old or older (some of them gaming journalists) have no idea that computer games were a thing until the last ten years or so. Because consoles are all they've ever known.

[Anonymous No.2361735]

>>2360724
NES games didn't all look the same. The first Mario for example looks like shit compared to later games. Even if you say that some NES game looks better than Shovel Knight, it doesn't mean anything.

>>2361171
Shovel Knight does closely resemble a NES game, and nobody thinks you're a cool kid for being arbitrarily contrarian.

[Anonymous No.2361739]

Most "retro" games just try to capture the retro graphical style. Although it's kind of funny that all they think that means is "big pixels" while they use every color available to modern PCs and graphical effects that wouldn't be possible on real retro hardware. Maybe they throw in a chiptune, too.

Realistically, graphics are the least meaningful part of creating a retro game. You could use the highest end graphics available and the game can still be authentically retro as long as it plays like a retro game. As far as what kinds of gameplay feels retro, that'd be pretty hard to define in absolute terms.

[Anonymous No.2361758]

The only way to recpature what worked in retro is to set up your own limitations to work around, otherwise you're just half-assing what could be a perfectly fine game.

Shovel Knight and VVVVVV worked so well because the developers went full throttle on aping very specific platforms, the NES and Atari-2600. Cave Story worked so well because Pixel was completely limited by his own experience and resources, so the game has a natural complete depth. Same with the original Spelunky and the HD remake is strong because they change none of the limitations.

Hell, every game is better when you put limits on what it can do, otherwise you get developers spiraling off into irrelevant bullshit that can't be held up to quality standards.

[Anonymous No.2361809]

>>2361735
No, it closely resembles an early tg16/PC Engine game.

[Anonymous No.2361821]

>>2361809
>>2361735

It may just stand out to me because I've worked on NES games, but I can't see this as a NES game.

[Anonymous No.2361827]

>>2361809
Ok kid.

[Anonymous No.2361858]

They mostly look 16 or 32 bit in HD but in an 8 bit artstyle (Like small, wide character sprites, blocky backgrounds etc...).

[Anonymous No.2361882]

>>2361821
Same here

I don't get the point of the nostalgia/fake retro look, it seems too cute and jokey. There's nothing wrong with simple sprite graphics, but one or two "knowing winks at the audience" and I'm out.

[Anonymous No.2361963]

>>2361882
>too cute
get a load of this faggot

[Anonymous No.2361974]

>>2361821
Same. Hell, I think Shovel Knight would even be impressive as an SNES game in some ways.

[Anonymous No.2361985]

>>2358653
modern games aren't retro
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.2361990]

The most common problem even for the best retro indie platformers is that they shower you with checkpoints to offset the stupidly difficult level design. Refusing to use a proper lives system is bullshit too because it was a big part of most early platformers. Freedom Planet is a good example where lives exist but they are pretty meaningless outside of achievements. Volgarr The Viking is one of the very few games that did the retro platformer thing right.

[Anonymous No.2362083]

>>2361821
Holy shit, this really does look like a PCE game.

[Anonymous No.2362087]

>>2361735
>Shovel Knight does closely resemble a NES game, and nobody thinks you're a cool kid for being arbitrarily contrarian.
Are you kidding? Nothing on the NES looks like that. Authenticity-wise, they did the best job with the music.

>>2361758
>VVVVVV [...] Atari-2600.
VVVVVV looks nothing like an Atari 2600 game.

[Anonymous No.2362094]

>>2361758
>every game is better when you put limits on what it can do, otherwise you get developers spiraling off into irrelevant bullshit that can't be held up to quality standards
Someone should tell Tim Schafer

[Anonymous No.2362186]

>>2362087
Shovel Knight has a strong resemblance to late Mega Man games and Little Samson. They deliberately gimped the color pallette and sound capabilities to achieve this.

VVVVVV's character and stage art is based on Atari-2600 graphics which also inspired the limited charactet actions.

[Anonymous No.2362192]

Oniken looks and plays like a slightly above average NES platformer. Probably the only game going for a "retro" feel that I've enjoyed. It is no Ninja Gaiden, but it is serviceable.

I'm not really sure about this sort of thing in general, though. If you want to make an NES game, that is damn cool. If you just want to make a pixelated platformer because you can't into art, that's not really that cool. I don't generally like this sort of thing. It is not at all hard to make a decent looking 2d game these days.

[Anonymous No.2362201]

>>2358653
This is a question by someone who knows nothing about video games. It follows the false narration that

"in the begging all games were difficult. Now no games are difficult. Now there is a rebirth"

It is true that compared to the past there are very few difficult games. However the past also gave us games like Final Fantasy 4 and Klonoa. The present has games like Hard Corps uprising and the entire shmup genre. There also isn't a trend of difficulty becoming the norm again. Games, on average, continue to get easier and this will probably continue.

[Anonymous No.2362228]

>>2362186
I know where the Shovel Knight developers claim they were taking inspiration; I'm saying they didn't achieve an authentic NES look. Play something like Legend of Hero Tonma or Legendary Axe and you'll see something much closer.

As for VVVVVV, it's a classic example of people being inspired by the early Atari era without achieving anything close to it. The limitations of the 2600 actually force one to come up with really interesting strategies for displaying anything coherent. They shape the game itself.

Developers claiming their work is an homage to either the 2600 or the C64 is usually a way to get away with extremely low detail, one or two color sprites. Funny how when someone instead claims to be inspired by something like the ZX Spectrum, there's usually more attention paid to the style of the platform.

[Anonymous No.2362238]

>>2362228
VVVwhatever doesn't look anything like a 2600. Atari game are a number of squares that might vaguely resemble something if you are lucky.

And the "platformer game played with save-states" gameplay is like nothing on the console.

[Anonymous No.2362340]

>>2361624
>Saying that PC gaming is irrelevant nowadays is a bold statement to make
Not sure where you got that? PC gaming is effected though. Got a series like BF that's nothing but really terrible console ports now.
>>2361730
>computer games weren't relevant until very recently is because you are presumably young and grew up with consoles.
Until Doom, PC was incredibly niche except for pack in games like flight simulator.

[Anonymous No.2362521]

>>2361684
>It's easy to make a game hard. it's hard to make a game challenging.

What are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.2362537]

>>2362238
Exactly.

[Anonymous No.2362586]

>>2361415
>I'm surprised no one has made a ROM hack that can go on a NES cart!

The game is way too big to do that. They tried to make official NES cartridges of the game which you could play on the NES, but there was no chance to make it fit in it, despite huge cuts.

[Anonymous No.2362589]

>>2361427
You have low standards for what is good, both in regards of retro and modern games.

[Anonymous No.2362592]

>>2361449
I like indie "retro" games, but IMO Shovel Knight is overrated. It is a good game, but not the best indie game which tries to be faithful to retro games.

[Anonymous No.2362602]

>>2362192
>pic
Could have fooled me as being an actual NES game.

[Anonymous No.2362628]

>>2359387
Axiom Verge is almost a carbon-copy of the original Metroid.

[Anonymous No.2362631]

>>2362521
How making a game hard doesn't make it good.

[Anonymous No.2362638]

>>2359538
I bought Destiny on launch and I don't recall anything being broken.

[Anonymous No.2362646]

>>2362638
There were people that couldn't connect for over a week at launch.
That's as broke as you can get.

[Anonymous No.2362652]

>>2360619
>your

[Anonymous No.2363128]

>>2362602
It was developed by a Brazilian team as well. The only thing that would throw you off would be the status bar; the way it is currently drawn would imply that it's a sprite layered on top of the background, but in reality, the NES would have to make that its own section of the background, and the whole strip would have to be isolated from the rest of the playfield.

And another thing that bothers me about the faux-retro games is that they take their much stronger hardware for granted. Developers constantly tried pushing their machines to produce better, nice looking visuals at any cost, because if there's one thing that can leave an immediate impression, it's good graphics. The NES could not support proper parallax scrolling, so developers had to use clever tricks to pull that off, never mind the fact that in order to even program these scanline splits, you run the risk of screwing up scrolling. But on newer machines and without any sort of limitations, they think "lol let's make this game have 7 different layers that move and scroll independently". That's not fucking impressive. At all. RECCA is renowned for being a fast paced shooter on the NES that can push a surprising amount of sprites around with negligible slowdown. Faux retro NES games will push dozens of 128 pixel wide enemies flying around and dropping loads of 16 pixel wide bullets. Again, hardly impressive.

[Anonymous No.2363152]

>>2358653
Games such as
>shovel knight
>La-Mulana
>Pier Solar
do it correctly.

[Anonymous No.2363163]

Shovel knight was p cool

[Anonymous No.2363225]

I enjoy retro-style indie games, but I'd never pay for them. I think the best retro-style games made these days are the hidden gems that are just released as freeware. Freeware game developers aren't looking for an easy cash grab, they're just doing it as a hobby, which excuses the no-budget art style.

Cave Story was originally released as freeware, and it's definitely among the better ones. There's also An Untitled Story which is amazing. Freeware indie games beat the shit out of the steam indie library.

[Anonymous No.2363249]

>>2360651
I like them a lot. They look and feel like actual NES Mega Man games.
like, there's a couple things that wouldn't really work on the NES here and there (also, some of the music might actually require two NES sound chips to actually be replayed), but it really nails the style and feeling

>>2359263
man, that's sexy
looks like something on an early-90s arcade board (like whatever the hell Xexex runs on)
like, I'd love more games with the high-quality "arcade" look, and you can even get away with shit like scaling and rotation by doing that

that being said, it's also much more work to look that nice

[Anonymous No.2363256]

>>2363128
Actually, the most obviously "not an NES game" thing about Oniken are the bosses, which are large, multi-sprite monstrosities. Large bosses in NES games are background layers. Hence the ubiquitous black background on most boss fights.

But really that's ok. It is a retro style game, not an NES game. And if you really wanted another VICE: Project Doom, you got it.

[Anonymous No.2363462]

>>2363249
>(also, some of the music might actually require two NES sound chips to actually be replayed

There's two things that defined Capcom's NES sound. They NEVER used DPCM, and they NEVER used any form of audio expansion, so I doubt they'd go farther than 2 squares/triangle/noise, since their NES sound was defined simply by those four channels. At best, they probably applied a reverb filter over the music to make the music sound deeper than it really is.

>>2363256
Some NES bosses had colors other than black, but I will admit it's pretty lame to have the screen go black.

>get to the end of the stage
>the screen suddenly turns black

Jesus, whatever happened to transitions? MM2 tried to do some transitions when it came to the Dragon boss, which gave the illusion that Megaman went inside this dark hangar where this boss resided in. MM2 might be considered to be overrated, but the developers did pay attention to some subtle details.

As for Oniken, I was more or less talking about that screen. Never played the game, but it's nice to see a game imitate a lesser known NES title.

[Anonymous No.2363614]

>>2359369
Except Castlevania is one of the best platformers of all time.

[Anonymous No.2363624]

>>2362340
IBM compatibles weren't the only computers around, and Doom came out twenty years ago (so not very recently).

[Anonymous No.2363658]

>>2359387
Axiom Verge is probably the closest you can get to a real NES sequel to Metroid without Nintendo making it. It's pretty good- I'm on my second play through because I only got 78% map/ 54% item first time through, and it's still just as fun, now I'm really taking the time to examine everything. I would hazard to say it's one of the best games I've played on the PS4, or in general for a long time.

[Anonymous No.2363664]

>>2363658
It must really push the hardware huh

[Anonymous No.2363669]

>>2363664
Of course not, but it's FUN and if you aren't playing games to have fun, then why the fuck bother?

[Anonymous No.2363695]

>>2363225
>An Untitled Story
tried it before, had to stop because the music was physically painful. assuming the game is good, it needs a qualified recommendation.

i see your point, but there are plenty of freeware games that should be lauded before aus, such as la-mulana, where you don't have to say "x major aspect of the game is crap, but..."

[Anonymous No.2363705]

>>2363624
PC means IBM compatible though.

[Anonymous No.2363737]

>>2358653
http://www.oldergames.com/

These guys are legit.

[Anonymous No.2363939]

>>2363705
That's what it means today, but back in the day IBM was just one among many microcomputer manufacturers.

[Anonymous No.2363974]

>>2363225
>retro style indie games
>cave story
Cave story is mediocre. Half the game is spent walking through areas with no enemies or obstacles. It has save-state tier check-points but is easy enough so you will probably never die playing it. If that's the best thing you can think of you you really are an idiot.

Indie is a marketing term to refer to low budget games. You are an idiot who buys into marketing.

Retro isn't "style". And old games did not have one single style they all followed.

You literally just said a bunch of gibberish. Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.2363982]

>>2363974
>Half the game is spent walking through areas with no enemies or obstacles
>you will probably never die playing it
You've never actually played Cave Story, have you?

[Anonymous No.2364064]

>>2363982
I beat it.
If you don't beleive me that cave story is 50% walking why don't you watch a video of someone playing it. Half the screens have no enemies on them. Just look at how long it takes for you to even get into the action at the start of the game. The game is slowed down even further by the need to constantly recollect power ups after you take a hit.

It's shit level design and the game is piss easy.

[Anonymous No.2364106]

>>2358653
Some are good some are not.

[Anonymous No.2364119]

>>2364064
>I beat it.
And I'm Gabe Newell.

> why don't you watch a video of someone playing it
Sorry but I actually played it unlike some people.

[Anonymous No.2364124]

>>2363974
>Indie is a marketing term to refer to low budget games
I thought it referred to games that wasn't backed by major publishers.

[Anonymous No.2364126]

>>2364064
>Just look at how long it takes for you to even get into the action at the start of the game
As long as it needs to press up and enter the cave full of bats and other shit?
>Half the screens have no enemies on them
Why should typical action adventure towns/villages have enemies in it? Do you have intellectual disability?

[Anonymous No.2364127]

>>2364064
>The game is slowed down even further by the need to constantly recollect power ups after you take a hit.

Yeah, I hated Mario.

[Anonymous No.2364131]

>>2363664
How does an indie game even get released on consoles? Aren't the SDKs a little expensive?

[Anonymous No.2364172]

>>2364124
So when konami was a no name company they were indie. After they became "mainstream" they stopped being indie.

Get the fuck out. The term indie never existed in video games before. It was a word invented to make selling shitty games being easier. We already had a term to describe so called indie games: Shovelware.

[Anonymous No.2364175]

>>2364127
Ok you've either never played cave or you are fucking just fucking retarded. If mario gets hit his fireflower doesn't fly out of him into 3 separate pierces all going in different directions that need to be recollected

[Anonymous No.2364179]

>>2364172
>So when konami was a no name company they were indie
Yes? Why not? The difference is that video games is a bigger industry now and a lot more money is put into them, so there is value in noting the distinction between games that do have the backing of publishers and those that don't.

[Anonymous No.2364180]

>>2364175
You're right, Mario is even worse than Cave Story.

[Anonymous No.2364193]

>>2364126
I'm not talking about the town. I'm talking about the actual levels. Half the screens in the stages have no enemies. The enemies are so ineffective that even when they are on screen there is rarely any excitement.

And the towns too another problem. They fucking suck. There is nothing in them. The towns in link to the past had shops, secret areas, chickens to interact with, bushes and trees to get items from, and mini-games.
It's mediocre in every single aspect. The stages are slow and easy. The adventuring parts are bare-bone. The challenge is non-existent. Even the graphics fucking suck. I'd excuse them if they were meant to replicate old games (like how Oniken replicates NES games). Cave story can't decide if it's trying look like a genesis or super famicom and looks like an ugly cross between them.

It's the poster child for "indie" games so people feel a need to defend it. Which basically shows you how terrible indie games are. Their "best game" is only mediocre. A 2/5

[Anonymous No.2364195]

>>2364064
I hate you

[Anonymous No.2364208]

>>2364179
So basically you saying that Crysis is an indie game because it was self-funded.

Do you even know how games are made. Pretty much all the so called indie games were made on someone else's engine (one usually made by a big company). In other words the big companies are involved in your so called indie games. If anyone can be called independent it is the big companies themself. Crytech isn't dependent on other people's engine.

>The difference is that video games is a bigger industry now and a lot more money is put into them

Flower, which is supposedly an indie game had a staff of over 200 people. This is a bigger staff than most games in the 90s ever had.

You aren't helping your argument. Every definition you have given backfires. Indie is a fucking marketing word used to dress up bad games.

[Anonymous No.2364265]

>>2364175

[Anonymous No.2364270]

>>2364193
The difference between Cave Story and ALttP is that Cave Story was made by one guy in his spare time, while ALttP was created by a huge team with big financial backing.

[Anonymous No.2364272]

>>2364265
"I have no counter point and everything he said about power up mechanics is factual. I can't even despitue it so I'll post this funny image"

[Anonymous No.2364273]

>>2364193
>It's the poster child for "indie" games so people feel a need to defend it.
Except it isn't an indie game, it's a doujin game. And no, they are not the same thing.

And do you really think anyone here believes you've actually played Cave Story? Just go back to /v/ where you belong.

[Anonymous No.2364278]

>>2364272
I'm not the guy(s) you are arguing with. You just seem very angry and upset. Over video games.

[Anonymous No.2364284]

>>2364208
Alright, O' Mighty Word Definer, what is the correct term for games made by an individual or a team of few individuals without any financial backing by any company or organisation?

[Anonymous No.2364289]

>>2364270
Why the fuck does that matter.
A good game is good and a bad game is bad. I am not pixel's mother. I'm not going to say "well you tried your best so it's an A+"
Literally thousands of people have made games in their free time. No one is going to give you special treatment just because you didn't have the ambition or talent to assemble a proper team.


Should we give the various flash game on newgrounds special treatment. They were made with even LESS resources than Cave Story.

[Anonymous No.2364294]

>>2364289
You are repeating icycalm's opinions. Why don't you just link to his review.

[Anonymous No.2364298]

>>2364284
I don't know what you are getting at. Lots of so called indie-games are funded by kick-starter which counts as an "organization".

You can't escape that all games ever made are highly dependent on large companies. That "indie" game you bought off steam. It is literally being published by valve: a big company Valve even takes 10% of the income as the fee for being it's publisher.

By any definition any game sold on steam is not independent from the publisher. The one exception is Valve's own games. Half life 2 is self-published. Braid is not.

[Anonymous No.2364304]

>>2364289
In my books, Cave Story is more impressive than ALttP because it is just one guy doing everything on his own with any aid. And yes, there are shitty games made by just one guy, but Cave Story is IMO a good game, and I don't think it is realistic to ask for much more than what Cave Story achieved with such limited resources.

I can see that you hate such games and that you become angry when others enjoy things you do not enjoy. It seems to me you are implying that more resources usually make better games, but I'd say that the AAA games of today prove otherwise.

[Anonymous No.2364305]

>>2364294
I'm also quoting my room (the line about flash games is from him). I might have also borrowed some more ideas from other people and simply can't remember.

[Anonymous No.2364308]

>>2364298
What about Cave Story which is published for free on his website? Is the game not independent because the creator needs internet from a company? If the creator used Linux to create the game, is the game published by Linux?

[Anonymous No.2364312]

>>2364304
If it wern't for "more resources" cave story wouldn't fucking exist. If hardware and software did not continualy improve we would still be playing ascii games.

If you honestly think cave story is more impressive than lttp because it was "made with less resources" you clearly don't know how much hardware and software has changed. The Toaster pixel programmed Cave Story on was more advanced and was running more advanced game making soft-ware than the cave-man tier software that Nintendo was working with.

[Anonymous No.2364317]

>>2364308
Cave story is also published by Valve for the steam version and Nintendo for the DS version.

So you tell me. Did cave story retroactively stop being "indie" when these new versions came out?

What when old DOS games went abounden ware and put up for free online? Are they suddenly indie? Will we eventually reach a time when Halo, Call of the Duty, and all the "evil AAA" games are indie?

[Anonymous No.2365130]

>>2364312
Level design, art, animation, music, sound effects and the story have to all be created manually. All the programming has to be done manually. There is a reason why video games are created by teams and why they still take years to finish.

[Anonymous No.2365195]

>>2365130
No art, programming or music is done entirly manually.

3d has had tons of development in making it easier to apply topography or wrap meshes.

2d art also had advances. There used to be a time when NES pixels were simply not possible and games had to be done in ASCII.

All programming is done in language which has built in tools.

No step of video game development is "independent".

However if any company deserves to be called independent it is the big companies. All of the "Game maker studios" and "Rpg maker 2,000" or whatever things are used to make lower budgets games are all dependent on the mega studios to make these programs.

Without Microsoft there would b Direct X and with no Direct X no cave story.

It's ironic that indie-fags passionately hate big companies when without the big companies these games wouldn't exist in the first place. If anything they should be praising big companies. Just think about all the indie-shovel-ware that will be made with unreal engine 4 and the newest unity!

[Anonymous No.2365217]

>>2364131
>Aren't the SDKs a little expensive?
Not really. Devkits can be moderately expensive, but really the reason indie games don't get released on consoles has to do with publishing costs, not development costs.

>>2365195
>Without Microsoft there would b Direct X and with no Direct X no cave story.
>It's ironic that indie-fags passionately hate big companies when without the big companies these games wouldn't exist in the first place. If anything they should be praising big companies. Just think about all the indie-shovel-ware that will be made with unreal engine 4 and the newest unity!

Are you seriously trying to say that without DirectX, there would be no PC game development? For the first few major versions, DirectX was a massive step backward for PC game development. Can you name a single API suitable for game development that came from a big company?

Please. The innovations happen in small companies, and then the big companies buy those companies. The cycle of life, especially in the gaming industry.

[Anonymous No.2365241]

>>2364317
>What when old DOS games went abounden ware and put up for free online? Are they suddenly indie?
No, they're still commercial releases from a publisher, just bootlegged.

[Anonymous No.2365247]

>>2365195
>All programming is done in language which has built in tools.
You sound like quite a filthy casual. What, too good for the panel? Can't debug on paper?

[Anonymous No.2365775]

>>2365195
As advanced as Pixel's development system may have been compared to the SNES era, he still spent over five years doing all kinds of manual work, including his own engine. Saying that art isn't done manually because you use a paint program or programming isn't done manually because you use debug tools or whatever is just retarded pedantry.

>However if any company deserves to be called independent it is the big companies.
Sorry but they're dependent on software and hardware created by other companies. And also electricity, water, food and clothes and janitors and accountants and...

>Without Microsoft there would b Direct X and with no Direct X no cave story.
Then he would have made it without DirectX (but does Cave Story even use it? There's nothing in the system requirements). Japanese PC game development didn't come into existence overnight only when DX1 was released. People were still releasing PC-98 games in the late nineties and probably beyond.

>It's ironic that indie-fags passionately hate big companies when without the big companies these games wouldn't exist in the first place.
The game industry wouldn't exist without hobbyist programmers. They're the ones who created it.

[Anonymous No.2365953]

>>2365775
>Then he would have made it without DirectX
You are missing the point. It's not just direct X. It's everything. The computer he was using only exists because of the giant computer industry. If it weren't for big companies we would still have games in the style of hobbyists from the 70s. The technology to run Cave Story wouldn't even exist.

Even from a design perspective big companies might as well be Gods while the so called indie-people are insects.

The very foundation of the platformer, the side-scroller, and pretty much every innovation in video games ever has been from the biggest companies. The most influential games have overwhelmly been made by the largest companies of their time. Super Mario with Nintendo, Castlevania and Contra with Konami, Final Fight with Capcom, Xevious with Namco.

And the case of hobysts who did go onto do great things like Richard Garret? They become big companies. Origin was fucking huge.

3d graphics, larger sprite limits, physics, dynamic lighting, controllers with more than 2 buttons, network play, increase in disc/cartridge space, game making engines: these are just a few of the innovations by big companies.

The most independent, innovative, and skilled developers are all either in big companies or go onto be part of big companies.

The indie game myth has been perpetuated by losers. People that failed to gather big development teams, people that failed to get funding, people with failed games. To hide the fact that they failed they want to discredit the winners (the big companies) by calling them evil: while at the same using all the innovations by the companies. It's dishonest and represents an outright hatred of video games.

[Anonymous No.2365970]

>>2365953
>The computer he was using only exists because of the giant computer industry.
Do you have any idea how far and wide this chain of dependency extends, and how pointless it is to talk about it? Computers only exist because someone is supplying raw materials, and that's only possible because of mining equipment someone made, and transporting the materials is only possible because of the shipping industry, and... fuck.

I'm sure icycalm is really impressed with you parroting him, especially when you don't actually understand what he's saying. He's not saying there's anything wrong with small teams or single developers making games.

>But let's make an important distinction here: Doukutsu Monogatari is a doujin game, not an indie one -- if this distinction seems pedantic to you, hold on to your bile while I explain why I am making it. A doujin game is indeed, roughly speaking, a Japanese indie game -- but this little word, "Japanese", makes a world of difference. Because the doujin scene has given us games like Melty Blood, Big Bang Beat, Akatsuki Denkou Senki, Every Extend, Acceleration of Suguri, Tumiki Fighters, Warning Forever, Imperishable Night, Shoot the Bullet and Trouble Witches -- games which at the time of their release stood right at -- or at least very near -- the cutting edge of their respective genres in terms of complexity (and even sometimes presentation), and which with a little extra effort -- or even as they were, in some cases -- would have had no trouble going up against many of their best commercial rivals -- as many of them in fact eventually did, and to a stunning effect.

He also gave ADOM five stars, etc.

[Anonymous No.2365994]

>>2365970
Your reading comprehensation fucking sucks.

When did I say there is anything wrong with small development teams?

I even made a point of specifically praising early Richard Garret to show otherwise.

The entire point of what I am saying (and to some extent) Icy is that higher budgets are SUPERIOR. This does not mean low budget things are "evil" or "wrong". Imperishable Night, ADOM, and all those other things would be better games with larger staff and budget. You seem to have the retarded idea that if I am implying large budget is better than small budget than I must hate all things small budget.

>Computers only exist because someone is supplying raw materials,

I don't know whether you are agreeing with me intentionally or you are so stupid you don't understand that you are agreeing with me. Everything I have said is at the idea that there is no such thing as a truly indepdant game. There are only degrees of independence. Nintendo games are more independent than say Braid.

The word "independent game" is a marketing term, that's all it is. The very supposed definition it gives is self-defeating. Bit Trip Runner is not self-published, Flower isn't low budget. If any game should be using the marketing term it's Crysis.

It should also be noted that in Icy's vocabulary "indie game" and "doujin game" mean different things. This is because games with the doujin label have produced actually good games while the best game with a "indie" label is Cave Story which was was isn't even worthy of praise.

[Anonymous No.2366012]

>>2365994
>When did I say there is anything wrong with small development teams?
Maybe right here:
>The indie game myth has been perpetuated by losers. People that failed to gather big development teams, people that failed to get funding, people with failed games.
It would be one thing if you were talking about only "indie" games, but you're not.

>I even made a point of specifically praising early Richard Garret to show otherwise.
Only because he later started a big company.

>I don't know whether you are agreeing with me intentionally or you are so stupid you don't understand that you are agreeing with me.
Read this again:
>Do you have any idea how far and wide this chain of dependency extends, and how pointless it is to talk about it?

>Everything I have said is at the idea that there is no such thing as a truly indepdant game.
There's also truly no such thing as reality. Therefore, I now declare that games don't exist! Or maybe you could just spare us the pointless solipsism.

>It should also be noted that in Icy's vocabulary "indie game" and "doujin game" mean different things.
You say that like I didn't just post a quote where he says exactly that.

>This is because games with the doujin label have produced actually good games while the best game with a "indie" label is Cave Story which was was isn't even worthy of praise.
Cave Story IS a doujin game, and icycalm even clearly says so in the quote I posted! Christ. And the distinction between doujin and indie doesn't have anything to do with quality anyway.

[Anonymous No.2366014]

>>2366012
>So the artfag epidemic has not yet reached Japan, a fact which at least explains why the efforts of the doujin scene are on the whole so far above those of their Western counterparts as to deserve a separate category -- hence my indie/doujin distinction. Daisuke Amaya's Doukutsu Monogatari is then entirely free of decadent "artistic" pretensions, purporting to be nothing other than what it actually is: a 2D action side-scroller with a heavy emphasis on exploration, in the style of the Metroid or modern Dracula games.

Well, saying that it has nothing to do with quality isn't quite right, but something isn't good just because it's a doujin game (as evidenced by him not liking Cave Story, a doujin game).

[Anonymous No.2366029]

>>2366012
>It would be one thing if you were talking about only "indie" games, but you're not.
Why do you think I used the word "indie myth" as opposed to "low budget myth"? Because I am talking about indie games. Come on, this is fucking obvious.

>Only because he later started a big company
No dumb shit because he started the basis of RPGs. Part of this involves "big company" he couldn't have made Ultima Online without a huge budget but he would have still influenced early rpgs with the older ultima games. You are trying to make me out as someone that hates small budget games when the majority of my favorite games are older games, which means they had shit budgets. They would be even better if they had larger budgets.

>There's also truly no such thing as reality. Therefore, I now declare that games don't exist! Or maybe you could just spare us the pointless solipsism.
You made the exact same point as me when you pointed out games cannot be made without the manufacturing industry. It's not not really philosophy to realize every step of making even the simplest games relies on a giant world of industry. That's just common sense.

>Cave Story IS a doujin game, and icycalm even clearly says so in the quote I posted! Christ. And the distinction between doujin and indie doesn't have anything to do with quality anyway
>>2366014 this guy explains it
If you are going to quote icy at least fucking be knowledge about what he is saying. You basically took his own ideas out of context to justify your own.

[Anonymous No.2366036]

>>2366029
>Because I am talking about indie games.
No, you're talking about all independent games.

>You made the exact same point as me when you pointed out games cannot be made without the manufacturing industry.
That was just to illustrate how absurd your reasoning is. Though for some reason you still don't understand.

>this guy explains it
That was my post.

>If you are going to quote icy at least fucking be knowledge about what he is saying. You basically took his own ideas out of context to justify your own.
Are you being serious? You're describing yourself here.

[Anonymous No.2366059]

>>2366036
I've never quoted icy. I've taken a few of his ideas and restated them, that's how fucking opinions work. I've also restated opinions from my friends, my room mate, etc.

As for independent games. Like I said there's really only two ways to look it. Either no games are independent or the only ones that are the ones that make their own engines and hardware (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft). Using game maker studio 2000 or whatever to make a platformer and than publish it on steam or someone's service is pretty dependent.

The indie label is a marketing term and nothing more. In other words any game that slaps "indie" on it is an indie game. If Microsoft decided to call their next Halo game "indie" than it would be just as valid (if not more so) than any other game being called indie. It's as meaningful as "power to the players" or any other slogan.

[Anonymous No.2366065]

>>2366036
A side note.
The marketing term "indie" is usually used by people who are failures and do not want their shitty game to be compared to actually good ones. Thus they set up a boarder "well you can't compare them. Mine is indie!"

If I created a side-scroller with a small staff and I actually thought it was good I'd feel insulted if people wanted called it "indie". If my game was actually good I would want it to be compared to the greatest side-scrollers: the Marios, the Contras, the Castlevanias, The Ghosts and Goblins. I wouldn't want my hard-worked game to be even be mentioned in the same breath as VVVVVV.

[Anonymous No.2366075]

>>2366059
You are parrotting him while at the same time failing to understand what he's saying.

>As for independent games. Like I said there's really only two ways to look it.
The way I look at it is that you're an overly pedantic sperglord.

>The indie label is a marketing term and nothing more.
Indie and independent are not synonymous.

[Anonymous No.2366078]

>>2358653
>Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou
>Philosoma

cool pic

[Anonymous No.2366095]

>>2358653
There's rarely any good ones. From what I've noticed there's mostly the games that just slap on a "retro" look to cater to people's nostalgia. Games that end up being way too fucking ugly because people think retro = looks like shit and games that feel like a modern game with just a retro look. It's all hipster shit at the end of the day. Unless I like it, of course.

[Anonymous No.2366134]

this thread was an interesting experiment.

let's never do this again.

[Anonymous No.2367843]

>>2366095
lelled at spoilers

[Anonymous No.2367918]

>>2358706

Well I kinda agree with >>2358692 to an extent. Standards have changed, and nobody's pushing the envelope with modern games anymore since there are far less restrictions involved in some areas at least.

The way I see it, back in the day, people had to overcome the obstacle of hardware limitations. An example would be how some programmers would get creative with the gameplay and level design to make games last longer, so you get more bang for your buck. They also had to get creative to achieve better visuals with limited hardware, like Donkey Kong Country or Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the SNES. So with those kind of games, you really got more bang for your buck.

Today, you don't have that hardware limitation, and that creativity that incentivized developers to give you the most out of your money left along with the classic generation. So for the most part, these days, people just tack on old-school sprites just because they're banking on nostalgia. A lot of them just tack on ideas that have already existed back in the 8-16 bit era, without truly having original ideas that came from the necessity of innovating around your limitations.

That is not to say that there are some good developers who do not need fancy graphics, but their creativity is almost always derived from the era they're trying to hark back to.

[Anonymous No.2367940]

>>2367918
Indie games made, 99% of the time, made by terrible developers.

The staff of Call of Duty might as well be Gods compared to a typical indie dev.

Most indie games are not even at the complexity of NES games but pre-NES games. VVVVVV is probably the worst platformer ever made (and I've played Cheeta-men). Compare it to Metal Storm which was the same concept but more complex, better designed, with better graphics, and 25 years earlier and you will see that the indie devs are the absolute worst game designers ever.

[Anonymous No.2369082]

>>2367940

I don't think you understand what I said, or I might have been too drunk to have made my point clear. So let me revise it.

My point is that indie developers lack any real ambition and their skills aren't refined yet to come up with clever game mechanics and use cheap ideas like retro-revivalsim to attract people to their games. If you were to put the developer or developers of let's say VVVVVV in a time machine, and have him compete with developers of old while the 8, 16 or even 32 bit market was still in it's prime, then they'll not survive since their skills are not quite there. Nobody would see them as anything special since everyone else was too busy pushing the envelope. They'd be considered mediocre or bland at best.

Although I wouldn't say that they would be in the same league as cheeta-men. There is a difference between a bland developers and outright bad ones. And cheetah-men was really just a bad game with bad developers and bad business practices. These are the people who would sell you flat out incomplete games, sold as-is at full prices.

[Anonymous No.2369668]

>>2369082
Motivatins aside is VVVVVVV really any better than Cheetamen? I can honestly say that I had more fun with Cheetah men. Cheetamen had actual enemies and bosses. The music, cutscenes and pixel art was way better too. VVVVVV is just colored squires while Cheetamen had an actual forest to go through and the characters are better designed. Both games have equally badly designed levels but at least Cheetamen had a proper continue/checkpoint system.


The only thing VVVVVV did any better was the lack of the bugs and superior hitboxes which is entirly due to the superior game development hard-ware.

If you were to take indie devs back in time they wouldn't make games at all. It's obvious they lack any talent what-so-ever. They would not be able to handle programming in the past they can barely handle programming now. If it wern't for super easy to use engines like game maker 2000 (which did not exist in the past, you had to make your own engine and hard code things) they would never had made their games.

This is why I am not exaggerating when I say the college students that made Cheetamen in 2 weeks have more talen than a dozen indie teams put together.

[Anonymous No.2369717]

There's no such thing as an "essence" of retro vidya, and modern indie retro-lites only copy superficial aspects anyway

[Anonymous No.2371926]

> all of these people posting about "what is real programming"
> zero knowledge about actually coding for NES or 16 bit architectures

Thank you for all the laughs, losers

[Anonymous No.2372008]

What about this ?

[Anonymous No.2372019]

>>2362589
He's absolutely right though. You ask people what their top 15 Genesis, SNES, PSX, and NES games are, you will get a ton of overlapping answers. There was a fuckton of very bad games on all four of those.

[Anonymous No.2372025]

>>2362521
Look at I Wanna Be The Guy needle games for an example of "Hard" but not "Challenging".

[Anonymous No.2372026]

>>2372019
2/10 retro games and 4/10 modern games are not good games.

[Anonymous No.2372028]

>>2372025
That's artificial difficulty.

[Anonymous No.2372030]

>>2372008
What is this witchcraft?

[Anonymous No.2372036]

>>2372026
2/10 as in "Two out of every ten" you mongoloid.

[Anonymous No.2372069]

>>2372028
>>2372025
There is no such thing as artificial difficulty only boring difficulty.

The first poster is right. IWBT is not challenging. Infinite continues and easy access to checkpoints means that all you need to do is beat a level once and it's done.

1ccing arcade games is challenging because it demands you master the entire game and be able to consistently beat every section without dying.

IWBT is just not a very good game. The game is extremly simple in what the character can. There are no enemies to fight other than about 6 bosses. Just platforms. A great deal of the game is unintuitive and breaks immersion.

An unexpected falling rock in a cavern coming down to crush your character is exciting and part of the world. Even if the rock is impossible to predict the first time at you least it makes sense in the world and helps create the illusion you really a hero going through a lost cavern to find the sacred treasure.
An unexpected apple falling upwards just reminds that you aren't on an adventure you are playing a fucking video game. No adventure, no heroism, not lost cavern with the sacred treasure, just figure out the character order to push the buttons in.

[Anonymous No.2372081]

>>2358653

More wallpapers like this?

[Anonymous No.2372187]

>>2372081
Searching console names on danbooru tends to bring up pics like that.

[Anonymous No.2372201]

>>2372030
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blE43U3PTGQ

[Anonymous No.2372213]

>>2358660

>>2358680

Exactly. The difference is the companies that were developing what we now consider retro were doing the best with what they had. Developers that try to recreate this aesthetic are basically dumbing down what they could be doing to try to keep up with this fad.

[Anonymous No.2372463]

>>2372036
How was I supposed to know, dipshit?

[Anonymous No.2372468]

>>2372187
duh what is danbooru I'm a literal retard so I don't know how to find out things for myself I just ask strangers dumb questions on rchan all day

[Anonymous No.2372496]

>>2358653
Not retro. Were the games made before 1999? No? Than it's not retro

>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.2372530]

>>2372026
>>2372036
These are completly meaningless statements. Nobody but you knows what "2/10" means because everyone has a different standard. Most reviewers say "5/10 means its terrible" but for me 5/10 means average.

[Anonymous No.2372553]

>>2372496

define retro
> "imitative of a style or fashion from the recent past."

[Anonymous No.2372612]

>>2372553
Gee than fucking Call of Duty is retro because it's an imitation of Half life and counter strike

[Anonymous No.2372619]

>>2372496
>Not retro. Were the games made before 1999? No? Then it's not retro

I support this definition. In any case, I believe modern indies like Shovel Knight to be "Faux Retro". And, please, bear in mind that I don't mean to connote anything negative with that particular choice of words: just that these games tend to imitate audiovisual styles and limitations present in "true" (and by true I mean true to /vr/'s current criteria) retro games.

[Anonymous No.2372684]

>>2359254
LISA was fantastic and is probably one of the most unique uses of the RPG Maker engine I've seen in a long time.

The crap that gets into the Steam store made with it pales in comparison.