Crash Bandicoot 1 (1996) looks better than every single Nintendo 64 game.

File: 184 KB, 400x270, Crash_Bandicoot1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:04:53 2015 No.2324089 [Reply] [Original]

Crash Bandicoot 1 (1996) looks better than every single Nintendo 64 game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:12:41 2015 No.2324105 Conker's Bad Fur Day looks better but I get your point.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:13:43 2015 No.2324107 >>2324089 > fixed camera

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:17:42 2015 No.2324110
File: 168 KB, 1024x680, 271-Bug_Too_(U)-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2324089
>>2324089
>Dat emulation filtering
Also Crash series was the most overrated action platformer of the time, Bug/Bug too was one million times better, however since Crash Bandicoot was aimed for autistics and retards, it sold much better.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:21:54 2015 No.2324116 File: 49 KB, 190x166, 1392951244497.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324110 imma REtard nigga i'll admit actually

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:22:23 2015 No.2324119 DK64, Perfect Dark and Conker look better.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:22:37 2015 No.2324120 >>2324110 Hi, brother. I also like Mario and Zelda.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:27:47 2015 No.2324130 >>2324089 Sorry mate, but that looks like utter shite.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:42:45 2015 No.2324151 >>2324089 But it is one of the best looking plattformer games, so what's your point? Btw Super Mario 64 has more variety of colors.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:42:54 2015 No.2324153 >>2324110 Cool sprite game but I hope you don't think ANYTHING in Bug! or Bug! Too was technically impressive.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:43:34 2015 No.2324154 >>2324119 >Came out half a decade late >Ran at 10 fps >Don't even look better Oh wow.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:43:55 2015 No.2324156 >>2324089 >>2324089 This is now a thread about 3-element statements that you could legitimately code a bot to generate and post. > Ocarina of Time is best CRT than not retro

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 14:56:40 2015 No.2324171

>>2324089
The Crash series is really carefully optimized for graphics. All the gameplay, camera and level design decisions are strongly influenced by how many things it needs to draw at a time. It must've been a fun challenge to create varied enough gameplay to be fun within such narrow constraints.

I also think they made designs specifically to work with the low-precision vertex coordinates that was a problem with PSX 3D. A lot of developers seemed to have made models and animations without that in mind and just accepted that the vertices were going to jump to 'close enough' points. I think Naughty Dog tried to minimize this in some way - which might very well have meant BOTH creating model and animation vertices with the right spacing in mind AND forcing models to move in fixed increments instead of "smooth" progressions from location to location that the PSX turned into piece-by-piece wobbles.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:06:49 2015 No.2324179 File: 2.13 MB, 300x290, ps1 graphics.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324089

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:10:40 2015 No.2324189

Crash Bandicoot 1-3 + racing are rare examples of extreme craftmanship to the fucking BONE in video game development. I highly recommend reading the making-of blog.

Every single seemingly minor thing you see in the games is a conscious design choice.

I wish Nintendo 64 had seen a game developed with such attitude.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:22:07 2015 No.2324204 File: 63 KB, 568x691, 1425431322724.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] It looks better but it's massively overrated and is mediocre at best like pretty much every N64 game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:23:44 2015 No.2324207 >>2324110 >Bug/Bug too was one million times better, If you've ever played the game you wouldn't think this. Bug was incredibly boring.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:26:27 2015 No.2324214 File: 5 KB, 251x200, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This stopped me getting a N64 over a PS

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:30:43 2015 No.2324224

>>2324171
I presume you have read it already, but if you havent and anyone else for that matter, head over to Andy Gavins website, he documented the programming for the first Crash and its pretty incredible what a 6 man team accomplished for that one game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:32:55 2015 No.2324226 Yeah, I always thought that PlayStation games looked better than N64 games. Why were N64 games so blurry anyway?

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:33:36 2015 No.2324227 >>2324214 Where can I sign up for your blog man?

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:37:25 2015 No.2324231 File: 2.80 MB, 3264x2448, 1427950975868.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324089 I liked two

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:38:33 2015 No.2324235 >>2324227 You're a funny guy, friend. Link us your facebook

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 15:52:58 2015 No.2324258
File: 13 KB, 225x225, jf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

WHy are PS1 fanboys so obsessed about the rivalry with N64?

PS1 has a wide sleection of games. Fine. Many of them are JRPGs that didn't stood the test of time, though.

Saturn has far better-looking 2D games, and N64 has far better-looking 3D games. PS1 is average.

Also Crash is a really boring western platformer. Feels like a 3D version of all these Virgin platformers from the 4th gen. Not to mention Crash's "poochy the cool dog" design.
Jumping Flash is the better PS1 platformer.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 17:10:14 2015 No.2324347 File: 117 KB, 734x1041, lolwat.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324258 Nah. Crash is god tier.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 17:12:04 2015 No.2324352 >>2324347 It's epic for the win!

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 17:15:47 2015 No.2324357 >>2324352 I reported your post.

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 21:04:20 2015 No.2324682

>>2324214
My dad was what stopped me. As much as I wanted an N64, he insisted we get the PS1 due to better graphics. Don't get me wrong, I'm eternally grateful that I had a father who would buy me something at all for Christmas, and I enjoyed PS1 all the same, but N64 will always be my favorite

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 21:18:06 2015 No.2324705
File: 178 KB, 283x270, mariocomic1994yoshi2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2324682
>he insisted we get the PS1 due to better graphics.

It was probably because it was cheaper, anon.

Although I'm not exactly sure how much cheaper PS1 games compared to N64 ones, but where I lived, finding original copies of PS1 games was almost impossible, every store (even big, renowed stores) had bootleg PS1 copies, all likely coming from China (this was before CD-Rs were common in households or affordable). So my parents convinced me to get a PS1 instead of a N64 too. The console itself was also cheaper than the N64.

Lucky me, my grandma got me a N64 a week later with Super Mario 64, this was right at the release of the console, in october of 1996.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 21:41:31 2015 No.2324720 >>2324705 The Ps1 also sold much better worldwide, rather then being just america focused

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 21:47:10 2015 No.2324725

>>2324720

Not sure how that's related to my post. But yeah.

I'm also sure there are more PS1s sold than actual games (official ones). As I said, where I live it was impossible to find originals. Every place would sell you PS1s with modchips already, and everyone was selling copies for like 1/5 of the cost of a N64 cart. It was a no brainer for most people.

I remember reading rumours about Sony actually encouraging piracy in certain regions, since it helped sell the console a lot. Sounds retarded, but who knows.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 21:54:26 2015 No.2324734 File: 233 KB, 1280x1024, Banjo-Tooie-banjo-kazooie-25772600-1280-1024.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324089

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 22:02:01 2015 No.2324747 >>2324734 Feel free to observe >>2324154 at any time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 22:05:14 2015 No.2324750 File: 59 KB, 600x428, pilotwings-64-lark-birdman-free-flight.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This thread is useless console war bait. But I'll contribute with some early 5th gen good-looking game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 22:53:57 2015 No.2324793 >>2324750 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXqAbNqhZuk

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:03:26 2015 No.2324796 >>2324750 >This thread is useless console war bait. You can see how deep the indoctrination goes, to watch these fights over which obsolete hardware has the least-terrible graphics

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:06:15 2015 No.2324804 >>2324089 i think Conker would like word with you

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:13:10 2015 No.2324808

>>2324089
Not true. World Driver Championship, Battle for Naboo and Conker's Bad Fur Day KILL Crash Bandicoot 1, 2, 3 in terms of graphics, while still maintaining a good framerate.

Crash Bandicoot, like most PS1 games, only look acceptable in screenshots but in motion look significantly worse due to unstable vertices and affine texture warping.

Furthermore, the comparison is mostly useless. Crash Bandicoot has a fixed camera, and therefore, pre-computed visibility (read the development notes). While free-roaming games like Mario 64 have to calculate all of the 3D information about every frame, Naughty Dog takes advantage of Crash's linear camera and already has pre-calculated most of the 3D data on the CD.

It's like comparing a fighting game with a 2D background (like Virtua Fighter 2 or Tekken) to non-fighting games. Sure, the games look GREAT in screenshots, but in motion the graphics look worse once you realize that the characters are essentially standing on a carousel.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:21:20 2015 No.2324817 >>2324154 Banjo Tooie may have half the FPS, but it looks three times as good.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:28:24 2015 No.2324824 >>2324817 Square Cube law does not work that way.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:29:10 2015 No.2324825 >>2324824 what?

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:30:17 2015 No.2324829
File: 184 KB, 799x541, 36714-Crash_Bandicoot_2_-_Cortex_Strikes_Back_[U]-5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2324808
Seriously? None of those games you mentioned look better or even have a good framerate. Crash has no moving textures, and the part about it being a fixed game is just a desperate reach for excuses. Play/emulate/look up footage of either game and you will see the overwhelmingly huge difference.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:35:37 2015 No.2324835 >>2324825 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:37:57 2015 No.2324837 >>2324835 Sounds like bullshit

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:38:20 2015 No.2324838 File: 176 KB, 1280x720, ConkerHD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324829 Are you seriously telling us to compare emulator screenshots?

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:38:27 2015 No.2324839 File: 251 KB, 1280x720, dragons-lair-screenshot-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] every game posted ITT looks like shit compared to Dragon's Lair, a game which was released well over a decade prior don't even attempt to say I'm wrong

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:39:16 2015 No.2324840 >>2324839 That's not even a real fucking game, autistic faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:40:52 2015 No.2324841 >>2324837 >Sounds like bullshit I don't think you know physics better than Galileo Galileo.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:43:00 2015 No.2324847 >>2324841 >Galileo Galileo. Not even his real name.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:46:06 2015 No.2324853 >>2324839 That's cheating bro. We all know arcades were way ahead of their time compared to consoles. seriously guys, stop falling for OP's bait.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 2 23:49:36 2015 No.2324861 >>2324847 fucking auto spell check...

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:00:45 2015 No.2324878

>>2324829
>None of those games you mentioned look better or even have a good framerate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJRPX02A9yY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtAoAz7POBY

See for your self, courtesy of actual console captures, not emulator magic.

>Crash has no moving textures
Delusions. Affine texture mapping is an involuntary part of the PS1 hardware.

>the part about it being a fixed game is just a desperate reach for excuses
Or it's about actually understanding game development? Let's face it, Naughty Dog made a decision, graphics vs gameplay, and they chose graphics. It's quite obvious when you read their development notes. When Mario 64 came out, they weren't concerned that it had better gameplay, no, they had better graphics! That was all that mattered to them.

>Play/emulate/look up footage of either game and you will see the overwhelmingly huge difference
I don't see what's so great about even that emulated screenshot.

A Gouraud shaded Crash Bandcoot is standing around a group of poorly filtered and heavily aliased textures.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:05:07 2015 No.2324885 >>2324878 Shit nigga, OP is not even trying. Stop. Falling. For. Bait.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:20:55 2015 No.2324896

'dem textures. the n64 had blurry undetailed textures because there was no storage space on the cartridges. the n64 could have had some amazing games if they would have gone with the better storage medium for the time. the music would have been better, texture detail would have been higher, games could have been longer, contained video, had more content in general. Instead they completely handicapped the system by choosing the carts for their fast load times, which didn't mean squat when it came down to it.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:25:02 2015 No.2324897

>>2324896
>he n64 had blurry undetailed textures because there was no storage space on the cartridges
No, it was actually because all textures had to be drawn out of 4KB texture cache, and most developers didn't know how to do it properly. Still, games like Banjo-Tooie have nicer textures than any PSX game.

On PSX you had the choice of drawing out of a 1MB texture page or a 2KB texture cache. Made things easier.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:26:50 2015 No.2324902

>>2324682
Your dad knew what the hell he was talking about and wanted to get with the times, rather than hang out in prehistoric cartridge land with poor music, voice, content amounts, and undetailed blurry textures with short basic games. your dad was smart. he knew that cds were way better because they were new and superior to the archaic carts which couldn't hold 1/10 of the content of a CD. maybe he wanted to get his money's worth and see what cutting edge games were looking like and sounding like.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:28:19 2015 No.2324907 >>2324902 you've lost any subtlety now

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:29:46 2015 No.2324913

>>2324705
your grandma is cool, it's a good thing you had both systems because of all the console exclusives on both sides. i got an n64 with my birthday money and quickly realized there was a massive library of games on the ps1 that i wanted to play with much more interesting content than most of what the n64 had to offer. the n64 always had some great games, but they were few and far between with a bunch of mediocre and crappy fare.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:32:54 2015 No.2324918

>>2324734
blurry undetailed textures, the only thing that was superior was the 3d. the sound was shit, the textures had no detail and were repetitive. i remember thinking as a kid that the graphics were superior on the ps1 even though it was older than the n64. it just had more detail, more content in the games.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:36:25 2015 No.2324923

>>2324258
huh, the jrpgs are the only thing worth playing anymore. how could a good story and a turn based battle age? not to mention half of them had great cutting edge graphics for the time. n64 games look like a bunch of very stable rectangles with boring repetitive textures.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:38:38 2015 No.2324924 >>2324907 you're a woman named ming li working in a casino and taking it in the ass from corrupt yakusa dons.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:40:30 2015 No.2324926 File: 109 KB, 625x626, bait.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324902 >>2324913 >>2324918 >>2324923

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:44:28 2015 No.2324936

>>2324926
Not to mention the N64 had a much smaller library of games because developers felt the playstation was simpler to work with and preferred the larger storage capacity of CDs. Square being a major name of a game maker who jumped ship from Nintendo to Sony after Nintendo chose the old format of cartridges.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:48:52 2015 No.2324941
File: 13 KB, 500x500, 1271297970992.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2324936

Are you trying to ironically mimic the usual N64 detractors who parrot the same stale shit over and over?
Not sure if you're actually trying to trigger N64 fans, or make fun of the anti-N64 trolls.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 00:51:45 2015 No.2324943 >>2324936 Okay i guess it's tea time with Dr. Troll. It still looks better than any Crash game, and this becomes even more apparent when they're in motion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:07:13 2015 No.2324979 >>2324840 >not even a real fucking game >Dragon's Lair >not real >not a game lies are all you have now

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:18:47 2015 No.2325009 >>2324943 >>2324941 Banjo Games couldn't even have voice for the characters because of the shit hardware. they had to make that weird mumbling sound for when there was dialogue.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:21:41 2015 No.2325017 File: 7 KB, 250x217, wine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2325009 I like you OP, this is a meta thread.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:23:00 2015 No.2325020 >>2325009 That was a design choice not a limitation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:26:59 2015 No.2325027 >>2324214 You hold the center prong. Why do stupid people get confused by this?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 01:56:50 2015 No.2325073 >>2325020 LOL now who's the troll?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 02:01:16 2015 No.2325084 >>2325073 If you want to be technical then it was a limitation, but only from lack of cartridge space or knowledge of the hardware at the time. Games like Perfect Dark and CBFD were perfectly capable of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 05:01:39 2015 No.2325286 >>2324918 lol you can talk all the shit you want about blurry this and un detailed that. But I would take all that over twitchy pixel vomit any day, I just realized im replying to bait.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 05:04:15 2015 No.2325289 >>2325084 >>2325286 yeah nignogs, this whole thread is about mocking the usual tards trolling on N64 threads wasn't necessary though you fell for obvious falseflagging bait.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 10:32:36 2015 No.2325523 >>2324979 It's nothing but QTEs, that doesn't qualify as a game to me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 12:04:21 2015 No.2325602 N64 has overall better graphics.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 12:23:25 2015 No.2325621 >>2324793 This song makes me want to fuck somebody. Real slow like I actually care.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 12:48:20 2015 No.2325664

>>2324153
None Crash game was either.
>>2324207
I had a PS1 instead of a Saturn back then (due the ability to play backups), I owned all three Crash games, and still I enjoyed Bug games much better. Crash were poor man's choice for a pseudo platformer on the PS.
Beat that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 13:41:37 2015 No.2325789 fifth gen was ugliest gen, prove me wrong hard mode: no 2D sprite games

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 13:56:19 2015 No.2325806

>>2325789

Pretty much, it was a transitional generation. It still has a lot of great-looking games games (Sin and Punishment, NiGHTS, Vagrant Story), and they actually looked impressive back then because it was new, but for people who weren't there back then to experience it, and who probably started playing games around 6th gen, most of 5th gen's 3D will look pretty archaic and unappealing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 14:00:21 2015 No.2325815 I love the way 5th gen 3D looks. It's like lo-fi music, it has a charm to it that clean and sterile over-produced music doesn't.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:33:36 2015 No.2325942 File: 538 KB, 1968x786, playstation vs n64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 21:23:41 2015 No.2326470 >>2325942 >>2325942 which is which

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 21:30:57 2015 No.2326473 >>2326470 Playstation = Left N64 = Right

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 21:35:59 2015 No.2326480
File: 307 KB, 1280x1024, 0711000442a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2325942

I have both versions of Legends.

N64 actually does some things better than the PS1 version, mainly a lot of clipping and flickering textures/invisible walls glitches that are present on PS1 were fixed on N64. I also thinkg the AA on N64 make Legends' pseudo cel-shading graphics look cleaner and better, less pixelated.
PS1 has (slightly) better draw distance, but it still suffers from it. Also, that picture you posted is a bit misleading: On the right, there's barely any buldings around because they were destroyed by the servbots, making it appear it's more empty (although yes, the house in the far back is barely visible on N64, and you can't see the wall at the back at all, on the PS1 you can see it, although you can notice it's struggling a bit with the draw distance).

There is no "better" version of Megaman Legends. Even the PC port, which has the best resolution, has audio sync issues. It's like Capcom went full retard with this game. They could have improved the N64 and PC ports a lot, but they didn't. So in the end, you have 3 different versions, each with their pros and cons.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 22:27:25 2015 No.2326572 >>2326470 Left is RGB Right is blurry Composite So, PS1 on the left side, N64 on the right side.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 23:16:08 2015 No.2326631

>>2326480
I think the issues with the N64 draw distance was that they implemented the PSX way of drawing polygons, that is to subdivide large polygons into multiple smaller pieces. You have to do that on PSX because any individual polygon over a certain size will generally cause glitches due to the low accuracy fixed point mathematics and affine texture mapping.

The N64 with high-precision fixed point maths and perspective correct texture mapping can draw polygons of pretty much any size without issue. But the default microcode has a lower polygon count than the PSX, so if you try drawing landscapes the PSX way on N64 (with lots of polygons), you will find yourself hitting the polygon wall very quickly. The N64 being able to draw landscapes with only a few polygons should kill the PSX in terms of draw distance (and does, that's why games like Spyro need hardcore polygon LOD reduction to work).

Lazy Capcom.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 3 23:54:24 2015 No.2326669 >>2325523 >that doesn't qualify as a game to me >to me >to me >to me >to me I can't overstate how little this matters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 00:15:11 2015 No.2326702 >>2324089 >baiting this hard

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 05:41:16 2015 No.2327069 >>2324089 "Look,I made a beautiful looking corridor!" Thankfully they got rid of these linear levels with Jak & Daxter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 06:07:46 2015 No.2327084 >>2324258 >WHy are PS1 fanboys so obsessed about the rivalry with N64? Latent decades-old corporate loyalty. Idiots pretending to be retarded. Spillover from /v/. You can look forward to more threads like this as /vr/ becomes more popular.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 06:09:09 2015 No.2327086
File: 119 KB, 640x960, ps1-vs-n64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2325942
Legends is a terrible PS1 > N64 port. In fairness, slightly shorter draw distance was a trait several PS1 > N64 ports shared.

Yet when N64 games were ported to PS1, you could get foggy messes like Army Men Sarge's Heroes for PS1.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 06:20:05 2015 No.2327095 >>2325664 >Beat that. You're stupid, how about that boy?

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 08:59:20 2015 No.2327190

I don't think any game I've ever played on the PS1 has worse graphics than the N64. Shit, even Final Fantasy 7 looks better than the (admittedly few) games I've played on the N64 (Mario 64, F-Zero X, Wave Race, Mario Kart, some other stuff). I'm not even trying to troll, I like both consoles, Wave Race and F-Zero X are in my opinion the two best racing games of the fifth gen, but N64 graphics just seem massively inferior.

It's only once I started browsing /vr/ that I heard this stuff about N64 having better graphics, because that's news to me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:07:11 2015 No.2327195 >>2327069 >not liking linear levels It's like you prefer to collect shit rather than have an actual engaging platformer.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:11:12 2015 No.2327197 >>2324089 It's sequels look marginally better. Well, at least Crash's model and animation is massively improved.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:11:16 2015 No.2327198 >>2326631 Even the default microcode can push as many polygons as the Playstation, and they would need to break up the graphics to get detailed textures on the N64 anyway. The game was just a shit port.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:26:40 2015 No.2327212

>>2327198
>The game was just a shit port.

But it fixed some stuff. And at the same time it fucked over some other. Capcom was lazy and retarded, same with the PC port.

>>2327190

N64 is more powerful than the PS1. I don't think you'll find a game that has graphics like Wave Race on PS1 (especially the water effects). F-Zero X is amazing going at 60fps, but in order to maintain said 60fps, they made the graphics very simple. It still looks very clean though, if it was on PS1, it would be jaggies everywhere.
N64 was praised when it came out in 1996, even by PC magazines. The main problem with N64 is the cart storage size, which made some devs struggle a lot with textures and sound. Some others who actually got around working the hardware were able to deliver some stuff that would have been impossible on PS1 or Saturn. Back in 1996, N64 was on par with PC. In fact, when the N64 launched, it was more powerful than any consumer PC (which is why it was praised even on PC publications). Some months later, the Voodoo 3dfx video cards were released, and then PC could match (and later surpass) the N64's capabilities.

Same as with the N64, the PS1's great-looking games has more to do with the devs working around and pushing the PS1's hard to the limit, rather than because of PS1's power. The PS1 was very average, it couldn't do 2D as good as Saturn, and it couldn't do 3D as good as N64. What the PS1 had was the best video codec though, which isn't surprising since it's Sony after all.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:26:50 2015 No.2327213

>>2327198
>Even the default microcode can push as many polygons as the Playstation
Not quite. It's close, but the PS1 does have the slight polygon edge (about 10%). Of course, the N64 can do many things in hardware that the PS1 wouldn't be able to do in software (such as large polygons). With a microcode that is purely focused on drawing fast PS1-like polygons, the N64 can do about 3x the PS1's count.

It's a shit port precisely because it does not take advantage of the N64's hardware. Even with the default microcode you can make N64 games look higher poly than PS1 games if you do it right - because the PS1 has to burn extra polygons on stuff that the N64 doesn't have to.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 09:27:49 2015 No.2327214 >>2324105 this, so much this

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 16:00:31 2015 No.2327776

Can we please start a thread about Crash Bandicoot that doesn't start with plain trolling?

Crash Bandicoot are the best looking and some of the best playing of the early 3D era, but it's not like you can compare Crash Bandicoot to the other games at the time, due to it being entirely different in the way they were made.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 16:06:48 2015 No.2327794 >>2324105 From what I experienced, it wasn't nearly as good at keeping up the frame rate as Crash Bandicoot, and the textures could sometimes be so small you could clearly see the tiles all over the surface.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 16:19:54 2015 No.2327825

>>2327794
Crash is jaggier and has an extremely simple lighting model. Conker had a more sophisticated lighting model than many early Dreamcast and PS2 games even.

There's also the obvious difference in draw distance in Conker's favor.

Conker's biggest problem is that the texture quality is very inconsistent. Looks amazing in places and sloppy elsewhere. I have to give credit to the Crash games that they are very well polished, graphically. There are no sloppy spots that make the game look ugly. But that's what you'd expect of corridor games vs free roaming games.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 16:31:02 2015 No.2327849

>>2327825

Let's also not forget that the games are 5 years apart.

Crash 3 also tried to do draw distance, and it failed. The beauty of Crash 1 and 2 is that they knew exactly what could and couldn't be done on the PS1. They were linear platformers because the fixed camera would significantly reduce the ugly affine texture mapping of PS1 games. It also made it easier to stream the levels and reduce the draw distance. Jason Rubin of NaughtyDog said that they were planning on making Crash free roaming for the PS2, until they had enough of the torture of working with Universal. All the limitations would be gone with the PS2's hardware, too bad Crash was taken over by idiot publishers that owned idiot developers, and kept it linear, while slowly taking out everything that made Crash Bandicoot so good in the first place.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 17:22:06 2015 No.2327930

>>2324214

What the fuck is the problem with this controller? It was probably the most comfortable controller in existence up to that point besides the Playstation controller. It's designed in a way that doesn't give precedence to either the analog stick or dpad.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 17:25:44 2015 No.2327941

>>2324918
>blurry undetailed textures

Have you ever played the game? Banjo Tooie has the most crisp textures of any N64 game

>the sound was shit

this must be bait because Rareware games are known for having godly soundtracks/sound

>>2324918
>the textures had no detail

wtf does this even mean

>repetitive

textures are supposed to repeat, i have no idea what this means

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 17:28:47 2015 No.2327947 >>2327086 Holy shit, that PS1 screenshot is bad. You can't see shit.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 17:34:25 2015 No.2327953

>>2327930

For the most part, it gets shit simply because it "looks weird"... you know; "lol what's this? a controller for mutants with 3 arms?".

It's actually very ergonomic, one of the most ergonomics controllers I've tried for sure, and it has great button disposition and as you say, it gives the option to either use the d-pad or the analogue stick without having to compromise your thumb, you simply hold the controller in different ways. It's a very creative and well thought out design (although yes, it does look weird).

The only real, legit flaw it has is that the 3D Stick wears off over time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:08:56 2015 No.2328056 >>2327953 The legit flaw is that not all the buttons are within reach at all times, which they are on the DualShock and the original PS1 controller.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:13:02 2015 No.2328065 >>2328056 This. There's no reason the D-pad and analog stick had to be mutually exclusive aside from poor design choice. They only limited what developers could feasibly do.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:16:16 2015 No.2328069 >>2328065 They thought that devs would use >left thumb - pad >right thumb - stick But they were wrong and honestly they should have seen that coming

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:22:45 2015 No.2328080 >>2328069 Did they really think that? How many games would only need 2 buttons? If the D-pad was meant to act as buttons, why use that as opposed to the 6 face buttons on the other side?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:26:39 2015 No.2328083 The water on the jetski maps in crash 3 is some straight up wizardry.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:28:19 2015 No.2328084

>>2328056

>The legit flaw is that not all the buttons are within reach at all times

Why would you need to use the D-pad or the R button when you have the Z trigger and the C-unitts (which are basically a secondary d-pad, besides also serving as extra 4 buttons).

The N64 controllers is designed so that you can hold it in 3 different positions. Most of the games only require the usualy right-side position, while others use the "standard" d-pad position where you grab the controller as if it was a SNES one.

Lastly, the left-side position is the one that was used the least, but some games still allow use for it, as an option.

You won't really come across any situation in any game where you need to use a button that's out of reach.

As I said, the only real flaw it has is the fragile stick.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:31:50 2015 No.2328092

>>2328080

Some games, such as shooters, don't really need the other 6 bittons. Having the Z-trigger and the L button to toggle weapons or whatever is enough. Then you use the d-pad to move, and the stick to aim.

Sin and Punishment allowes the left-position, and it plays great.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:33:56 2015 No.2328093

>>2328084
The N64's setup is objectively inferior to having both the analogue stick and d-pad within reach with the same grip, just like every controller to come out after it. I understand why they made it the way it was (they weren't sure if the analogue stick would a success and wanted a fall-back option) but still.

Luckily I always had big thumbs so I didn't have (much) trouble using the d-pad for secondary uses in games like turok

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:34:23 2015 No.2328094

>>2328084
>You won't really come across any situation in any game where you need to use a button that's out of reach.
The L-button toggles the map for Turok.
The L-button toggles the map for OoT (probably MM too.)
The L-button taunts in Super Smash Bros.
The L-button toggles the music for <3 player Mario Kart 64.
All of this requires you to let go to use them and I'm sure I'm not mentioning a lot.
Yes, these are largely unnecessary to do, but it's still the only way to do it.

Regardless, the developers made the games with it in mind you can't use them - imagine the possibilities if games had 4-5 more buttons to be able to use. A game like Donkey Kong 64 wouldn't force your to crouch to pull our your gun or throw a grenade for instance.

>The N64 controllers is designed so that you can hold it in 3 different positions
>but some games still allow use for [the d-pad], as an option.
Having the controller set up akin to the Dreamcast controller would still allow you to use either one so that point is invalid.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:48:47 2015 No.2328109

>>2328094

Yeah, I know about these.
I can give you another example, on Yoshi's Story, you need to press any direction on the d-pad to toggle the fruit-count on screen.

But as you said, those are unecessary. In fact, I didn't know about the OOT thing until recently.

The flaw would be if a game actually required you to use a button you can't reach at any given part, but no game, that I know of, does that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:50:26 2015 No.2328113 >>2328109 No, that's not how it works. That would be the fault of the developers and not the controller. The controller's fault is not having all buttons available with one grip. If you fail to understand this there's no reason to discuss it.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:56:25 2015 No.2328117

>>2328113

You think not being able to reach all the buttons in one grip is a flaw, I think the option to grab the controller in 3 different positions can be a pro.
As I said, games that use the left-side position don't really need more than the D-pad, the Z-trigger and the L button. Sin and Punishment plays great this way. And the best thing is that in any given time, without even having to pause or go to the menu screen to change settings, I can just change position and play on right-side if I feel like it.

But anyway, the majority of games on N64 use the standard right-position.
Having all 6 face buttons, the R button and the Z trigger is enough for them.

If "not being able to reach all buttons in one grip" is really an issue to you, I guess keyboard+mouse on a PC is a nightmare, a lot of times you'll have to change your hands position to reach different keys on the keyboard.

Anonymous Sat Apr 4 19:59:54 2015 No.2328121

>>2328117
>I can just change position and play on right-side if I feel like it.
But if it was designed better you wouldn't need to change positions.
Why would having multiple ways to hold a controller to use specific buttons be better than being able to hold it one way and press the same buttons for all the different grips?

and I don't have to physically hold the keyboard so it's a non issue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 4 20:15:24 2015 No.2328137 >>2328121 >But if it was designed better you wouldn't need to change positions. That's the thing, you don't _need_ to change position. It's completely optional.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 00:38:05 2015 No.2328505 I respect Crash for using DKC as an influence. Probably explains why I like its atmosphere.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 08:09:55 2015 No.2328801 >>2327069 Because they then had the technology available to do a game like Jak. Crash Bandicoot is as tailor made for the PS1's hardware as it can possibly be, and Crash would be the same for PS2, had they got to keep the rights to the franchise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 08:25:14 2015 No.2328809 >>2324824 That has nothing to do with this conversation.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 08:39:19 2015 No.2328820 >>2324089 magic knight rayearth, nights, die hard arcade, dragon force, shining force 3 and panzer dragoon saga look better

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 19:35:20 2015 No.2329626 >>2328820 I hope ur 'avin a giggle right now, because that's pretty bashworthy of a statement, I swear on me mum.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 19:43:21 2015 No.2329645

>>2324130
Pray tell, how does it look like shit? I'll admit that CB is not fun, but there is no denying, for a PS1 game it looks astoundingly good. Not just that it has very high quality textures and a large number of polygons, but because the art direction is spectacular. Everything in CB "pops" by never clashing or muddling colors.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 20:32:15 2015 No.2329707 >>2329645 Crash Bandicoot is only fun if you try to pull off good level runs without stopping to wait for platforms and shit, which you rarely have to do, unlike in many other platformers.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 21:00:04 2015 No.2329735 >>2324110 >being mad without provocation check yourself, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 21:22:54 2015 No.2329751 >>2329707 people who don't like crash are playing it wrong. it's a linear engaging platformer, not an expansive collection quest (though collecting gems is fun nevertheless)

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:03:41 2015 No.2329785 >>2329645 > I'll admit that CB is not fun What the fuck are you talking about? >>2329707 What the fuck are you talking about? I don't understand the elitism/apologetics going on in these posts. Crash Bandicoot is fun.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:18:37 2015 No.2329801 >>2324107 Better than a broken camera.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:21:02 2015 No.2329804 >>2324258 That is a game that could use a revival.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:34:37 2015 No.2329814 my mate had N64, I had PSX we argued a lot over whose was better when I went round his house we played N64 and at mine we played PSX. Even when I played N64 I thought the games were garish and childish

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:41:14 2015 No.2329821

>>2324705
PS1 games topped out at about 60 bucks, usually 50. IIRC FFVII was 50 bucks. There were plenty of games that were released at 35-40 dollars new, as well.

N64 games generally started at 50 bucks and went up to 80 or so, though that came down over time.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:48:24 2015 No.2329831

Also plays better than a certain pain in the ass to control and deal with a freaking stupid camera N64 game.

CB should be the game people think of when they think of 3d platformers, not goddamn Mario 64. The only thing Mario64 had was viral marketing by Nintendo, paid off reviewers, and name recognition to convince the new little gamers of the era that this poorly done piss of a game was good.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 22:48:56 2015 No.2329834 Quake will never be on PSX even tought it was posible to do.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:03:09 2015 No.2329857

>>2329834

Quake on the Sega Saturn wasn't even based on the Quake engine. Used the same engine as Saturn Duke3D (also not the same engine as PC Duke) and Powerslave/Exhumed. They just rebuilt the levels manually using Quake assets, and remade all the items and enemies for it.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:13:59 2015 No.2329869
File: 62 KB, 250x250, 1425239291406.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2329831
I rarely browse /vr/ but is this the general opinion here?
I played both as a kid, and I've always felt that mario 64 was superior to cb, despite owning a ps1 and only renting a n64.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:25:35 2015 No.2329891

>>2329869
I would say no.
/vr/ isn't one person
Mario 64 is praised for it's controls, fantastic skill curve (super easy for anyone to pick up and play, hard to master), and fantastic transition into a full 3D environment.

I would say there are certainly rivalry's around and people have strong opinions. Why can't we just appreciate good games without having to say others are bad? To worry about what brand the game was?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:27:19 2015 No.2329893 >>2324918 >the sound was shit, literally nothing from the 90s/early 2000s compares to shit Rare made in the sound department

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:29:11 2015 No.2329896 >>2329869 Maybe this week. /vr/ has exactly the same hipster/anti-hipster ebb and flow as its parent, only hilariously about things that happened 2 decades ago.

Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:29:41 2015 No.2329897

>>2329869
They're totally incomparable games, imo.

Crash is a faux-3d, linear corridor platformer, Mario 64 is a true-3d, nonlinear open-world platformer.

They're both really great games, but Crash is more of a continuation of 4th gen platforming and Mario 64 was a completely innovative title that changed the face of 3d gaming forever.

Mario 64 is definitely the better/more influential game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:31:19 2015 No.2329898 File: 1.09 MB, 350x200, zh 45 5z54.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2329893 >literally nothing from the 90s/early 2000s compares >to shit Rare made in the sound department

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 5 23:33:19 2015 No.2329904 >>2329869 No. I'm pretty sure what he said was bait.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 05:39:02 2015 No.2330191 >>2329869 Crash Bandicoot and Mario 64 are not comparable, not in the sense that one is in a different league than the other, but because they are entirely different kinds of platformers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 05:41:42 2015 No.2330192 >>2329897 > faux 3D I'd say with Mario 64's much heavier use of 2D sprites, that would be the faux 3D game.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 05:48:07 2015 No.2330197
File: 235 KB, 720x1280, 1421555951594.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2330192
He means from a gameplay perspective. Those are billboarded objects, yes, but so are the fruits in Crash.

If you want to get really technical, the PS1 wasn't even a fully 3D machine (textures are not 3D perspective correct).

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 05:52:52 2015 No.2330201

>>2329869

Nah, PS1 fans always try to one-up everyone and say their stuff is better than the rest, but Crash was, to me, really underwhelming.

It felt like those floaty platformers from Virgin in the 4th gen, only from a different perspective. Crash isn't a bad game, I played Crash 2 a lot, but it isn't the kind of game I'd go back and play nowdays. You can tell it's a western-developed game, like the Virgin platformers.

Super Mario 64 was ground breaking and anyone trying to claim it's shit because of whatever reason simply weren't there at the moment SM64 released and don't know how it changed things forever.

They're not comparable at all.

A real 3D platformer game on the PS1 (and better than Crash, at least, I enjoyed it a LOT more and still like to play today) is Jumping Flash, which is a first-person platformer, very unique, and very well done, great physics, controls, etc.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 05:57:48 2015 No.2330204
File: 2.73 MB, 264x313, Thingken-of-fast.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2329893

With David Wise, I wouldn't really argue too much.

But with the N64, I think the sound department took a big blow.

Here's two somewhat comparable tracks, one from Banjo Kazooie and one from Crash Bandicoot 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nxFYoGNJKc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68hg-1VDNCY

To me, there's no question which one is more engaging, more adventurous, more exotic, more immersive... Crash Bandicoot's. I always felt like Banjo's music was trying too hard to be childish and humorous, while for Crash Bandicoot, it just came so naturally and rarely came through as irritating or out of place (that is, until Crash Twinsanity came along).

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:03:02 2015 No.2330212 >>2330204 To each his own, but I don't know what you see in that Crash 2 track.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:03:27 2015 No.2330213

>>2330197

And yet, the PS1 and Saturn were more cut out to do 3D because of the use of CDs. N64 hardly had the storage space necessary for 3D games. Also, it may all come down to personal taste, but when it comes to textures as low res as they were back then, I would rather have them unfiltered.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:08:48 2015 No.2330219

>>2330201

How is Crash Bandicoot "floaty"? There's few 3D platformers in which the jumping controls feel as right as the do in Crash.

Usually with platformers, the character jumping feels so wrong, usually they can stay in mid-air for too long, and air-acceleration (controlling the character in mid-air) was extremely restrictive.

Crash didn't have that, though Crash 3 introduced slower air-acceleration, while Wrath of Cortex brought back the air-acceleration and made the jumping feel actually floaty.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:13:03 2015 No.2330223 >>2330219 Felt floaty to me, and the movement in general felt awkward, as I said, it felt like playing the Virgin 2D games like Aladdin or Maui Mallard. Now I'm not saying that because of that the game sucked, some people might like that. I don't.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:13:06 2015 No.2330224

>>2330213
>N64 hardly had the storage space necessary for 3D games
Early 3D requires less storage space than 2D. Vertices + textures are less data dense than everything is a sprite. PSX runs 2D games worse than Saturn because it has way less RAM.

>I would rather have them unfiltered.
Unfiltered only looks better for stylization (trying to replicate 2D games, like Mega Man Legends) Filtered is objectively better for everything else.

Let me guess, you're one from the emulator crowd that saw how badly N64 emulators filter textures and thought "it must be like that on the real console!". Well...it's not. That being said, many mediocre developers really didn't know how to texture properly on N64.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:13:53 2015 No.2330226 >>2330213 >more cut out to do 3D because of the use of CDs What does that even mean?

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:15:44 2015 No.2330228
File: 24 KB, 640x480, eGxkaWtxMTI=_o_crash-bandicoot-2-walkthrough---episode-1417---que-de-[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2330212

With that music, you're in more hazardous parts of the signature jungle levels, one in which you're on grassy platforms along a cliff with small waterfalls on them, and one which is also in the jungle levels in complete darkness. Actually the dark level should have a somewhat creepier track, but Universal probably didn't let them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 06:16:51 2015 No.2330229 >>2330226 Storage space to store textures, sound, music, and at this point, voice acting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 07:37:28 2015 No.2330308 To be fair, a great deal of PSX music is just midi like N64 and SNES.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 08:10:17 2015 No.2330337 >>2330308 Yep, not every game used Redbook audio as many people seem to think. The main advantage CD had was for the voice tracks, but for music, a lot of the time it was MIDI. Final Fantasy VII being a clear example.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 08:37:02 2015 No.2330353

>>2330337
Similar things with framerates. There's a meme going on that N64 games had bad framerates and PSX games had good framerates, but the truth is that across the library of both systems the vast majority of fully 3D games had bad framerates. It really is cherry picking at its finest when you take into account the N64 hardly had any games that weren't full 3D.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 13:18:49 2015 No.2330787 >>2330308 But the CD storage allowed for bettet sound samples for MIDI tracks, like for Spyro and Crash games after the first game, which admittedly was heavily compressed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 13:41:39 2015 No.2330832 >>2329869 I hate the N64 and even I think Mario 64 is a god damn masterpiece.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 14:03:09 2015 No.2330886 >>2324705 Typical MSRP for a new Playstation game was $39.99, for N64 $59.99 which is a whopping 50% premium. Devastating.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 14:07:52 2015 No.2330896

>>2330787
That's true, but I'd say with a large cartridge like Conker, the MIDI samples were no worse than the MIDI of any Playstation game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YRGbfufHG8

Jet Force Gemini wasn't bad either

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dYJKP91FwY

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 14:28:49 2015 No.2330932

>>2324171
>The Crash series is really carefully optimized for graphics.

That's Naughty Dog in a nutshell, they're still doing it. Uncharted does the same trick of giving jaw dropping visuals but only being able to pull them off because the game is on such tight rails. Personally it's a big part of the reason I can't stand any of their games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 14:32:56 2015 No.2330941 >>2330886 More like $49.99 PC, $4/59.99 Playstation (mark up for big name titles), $69.99 for N64.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 15:34:53 2015 No.2331035 >>2330204 BK sound much crisper and the composition is not a bunch of random sounds strung together.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 15:42:03 2015 No.2331046 >>2330896 >JFG best soundtrack on N64, holy shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VFHoo_kNL8 well, next to Shadowman that is, but it was a port so not sure it counts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39cCEC476w0

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 15:45:09 2015 No.2331048 >>2331046 >well, next to Shadowman that is, but it was a port so not sure it counts. N64 version is original

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 15:52:18 2015 No.2331054 Why do people act like Crash was in any way a comparison to Mario 64? Mario 64 was a full exploration game while Crash was nothing but running forward.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:01:51 2015 No.2331065 >>2331054 Because (much like Naughty Dog themselves), they can calmly reassure themselves that at least it had better graphics. Of course, it having better graphics was entirely predicated on having an on-rails camera.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:05:31 2015 No.2331074 I'm an N64 fan, but even I will admit that the PSX version of Quake II looks pretty smokin'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHudbgxWfY

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:12:45 2015 No.2331085

>>2331035

If anything Banjo's music is rather uncreative in comparison when it comes to sound and composition, and even if Crash is slightly less crisp (because some samples are longer recordings of percussion instruments), it more than makes up for it with more interesting sound in general.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:23:47 2015 No.2331108 >>2331085 Dunno whether this is even a fully fair comparison for BK. That Treasure Trove Cove track was written at the last minute to replace the original track because the boss didn't like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXUnlc2gjIc

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:32:46 2015 No.2331124

>>2330204
>Crash Bandicoot music
>better than any BK world music

literally what, Banjo has some of the most catchy/memorable music in video games period imo. You'd be hard pressed to find a kid that couldn't instantly recognize from where a Banjo tune came, given he or she played the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:35:10 2015 No.2331127 This is now N64 music thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkxNaMDCpYI

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:39:22 2015 No.2331136 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFnCWyXyEk

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:39:34 2015 No.2331137 >>2331127 wow this is goat, sounds super Chrono-Triggery too

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:41:47 2015 No.2331141 >>2331136 I never played Turok, now I get why people like it.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:44:15 2015 No.2331146

>>2331127
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyWa1U6T1DY

Ironically, your average PCE-CD or Sega CD game is going to have better music than your average Playstation game. Playstation games usually have a lot of space taken up by FMV movies and other wasteful data, whereas the older CD based games are pretty much entirely music data with a tiny bit of game. Most Playstation games are decent sounding MIDI.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:47:19 2015 No.2331153 >>2331146 >Ironically, your average PCE-CD or Sega CD game is going to have better music than your average Playstation game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZy4B5OAoUU hell yeah

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:47:25 2015 No.2331154 >>2331108 I can perfectly see why. Those bending flute notes are awful. It would be a really good track without that, it's got a hint of Crash to it that one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 16:54:53 2015 No.2331167 >>2330787 But Spyro didn't do MIDI, all of it's music was streamed from the disc.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:02:31 2015 No.2331173 >>2330224 >PSX runs 2D games worse than Saturn because it has way less RAM. More like because the Saturn had a dedicated 2d background plane processor.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:03:11 2015 No.2331176 >>2331127 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv9_EYRfDxM

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:07:03 2015 No.2331181 >>2331173 Yeah, nah, that has nothing to do with missing animation frames in PSX games. Also VDP1 a shit and the PSX can render more sprites than the Saturn.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:13:03 2015 No.2331190

>>2331181
>PSX can render more sprites than the Saturn.

What does this mean exactly? Because in my experience most 2D games I've played on Saturn are better than on the PS (with the exception of Gekka no yasoukyoku).
It can render more sprites, but then it isn't able to mantain them because of less RAM?
Even games that don't use the extra RAM on Saturn, like Alpha 2, are much better than the PS version. Not only the animation frames, the sprite quality, size, color, etc looks better on Saturn.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:14:45 2015 No.2331192
File: 315 KB, 963x1542, swass_unity.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2330197
>If you want to get really technical, the PS1 wasn't even a fully 3D machine (textures are not 3D perspective correct).
Meaningless technobabble. Flat-shaded and wireframe games are equally 3D, because 3D information is projected onto the screen. Affine texture mapping, while ugly, is not some smoking gun that changes the whole definition. Anyway, it's far from a black mark against the PSX and Saturn, since it could be (and was) fought with higher tesselation. Plenty of games on those systems have subtle or unnoticeable affine artefacts.

>>2330224
>Early 3D requires less storage space than 2D. Vertices + textures are less data dense than everything is a sprite
Textures generally require far more storage than geometry, true on the N64 as well. In extremely limited space, variety or detail or both of textures is constrained. Early 3D only *requires* less space if textures aren't being used at all.

>Unfiltered only looks better for stylization... Filtered is objectively better for everything else.
Must I post it again? There's nothing special about bilinear filtering- it's a way of magnifying textures without aliasing, at the cost (or potential opportunity) of blurring if the textures are highly magnified.

>Let me guess, you're one from the emulator crowd that saw how badly N64 emulators filter textures and thought "it must be like that on the real console!". Well...it's not.
Huh? In your terms, it's objectively inferior on N64, a streaky 3-sample approximation of bilinear filtering. Of course, real bilinear filtering looks incorrect because N64 games weren't designed around, but it's a weird thing to bring up considering your argument.

PSX/N64 debate = swimmy console vs blurry console in a beauty contest to see who's the shiniest piece of shit in an aesthetically disastrous generation

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:14:56 2015 No.2331193
File: 25 KB, 287x368, Screen shot 2015-04-06 at 2.12.34 PM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Pacman came out in 1980 and it looks better than most games

it finely detailed or technologically advanced, but it's aesthetically pleasing and severely iconic.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:16:07 2015 No.2331195

>>2331190
VDP2 only helps with framerate and special effects. Animation frames are all to do with RAM. The more RAM the more frames.

If PSX had the same amount of RAM as Saturn it would have the same amount of animation frames, but maybe still disadvantaged in some areas for not having a background processor. That said, its faster sprite capability also gives it some performance advantages.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:22:00 2015 No.2331198 >>2330229 none of that has to do with the 3D it's self though

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:24:41 2015 No.2331205

>>2331192
>Meaningless technobabble. Flat-shaded and wireframe games are equally 3D, because 3D information is projected onto the screen. Affine texture mapping, while ugly, is not some smoking gun that changes the whole definition. Anyway, it's far from a black mark against the PSX and Saturn, since it could be (and was) fought with higher tesselation. Plenty of games on those systems have subtle or unnoticeable affine artefacts.
Name one 3D Playstation game with 100% stable 3D. Just one.

>Textures generally require far more storage than geometry, true on the N64 as well. In extremely limited space, variety or detail or both of textures is constrained. Early 3D only *requires* less space if textures aren't being used at all.
This is about geometry + textures vs a full sprite 2D game.

>Must I post it again? There's nothing special about bilinear filtering- it's a way of magnifying textures without aliasing, at the cost (or potential opportunity) of blurring if the textures are highly magnified.
Hah at that image with ridiculous bilinear sampling as if that shows anything of value.

>f course, real bilinear filtering looks incorrect because N64 games weren't designed around, but it's a weird thing to bring up considering your argument.
N64 also interpolates bilinear filtering across several side-by-side textures composing a set of tiles. Most N64 emulators do not account for this and simply chop off the edges of the texture.

Suffice to say, there are a lot of issues.

>PSX/N64 debate = swimmy console vs blurry console in a beauty contest to see who's the shiniest piece of shit in an aesthetically disastrous generation
You won't find much disagreement.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:25:26 2015 No.2331208 >>2331074 Damn anon, I'm adding this to my must have list. Thanks! Is the ps1 port of quake 1 any good?

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:27:04 2015 No.2331214

>>2330787
as some one that actually studied music based technology, the quality of the playback of the midi samples would have more to do with the sound chip than anything else, size has nothing to do with it, compression only applies to things like digital music files. MIDI is more like a player piano roll, all it does is send signals that tells a capable device what notes to play.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:38:04 2015 No.2331235 >>2331214 So, pretty much the SNES. Where larger carts (like SSF2's 32 megs vs. SF2's 16) have better samples?

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:55:53 2015 No.2331265
File: 1.70 MB, 1920x1080, dl3[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2324839
This man speaks the truth

In Crash you give up a little control so you could get better graphics, that's why it looks really good

So how about you give up nearly ALLLL your control so the graphics can basically be animated cells?

By OP's logic this is how games work.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:57:26 2015 No.2331272

>>2331181
>Yeah, nah, that has nothing to do with missing animation frames in PSX games

PSX wastes a shit load of RAM doing backgrounds. Saturn offloads a ton of those (the background processor could do tiling, which highly increased its efficiency). So Saturn has more free memory for animation frames.

>>2331190
>What does this mean exactly?

It means that the PSX gpu has higher fill rate and more efficient VRAM setup than the Saturn VDP1 (and also more features).

The only reason the Saturn had better 2D games was because it had the VDP2, a background processor, which off loaded a HUGE amount of data from the VDP1 and also applied billions of special effects.

>>2331195
Not completely true. You also have to take account things like memory bandwidth. You can't fit all animation frames into VRAM, you have to hold a lot of them in system ram and update VRAM every few frames. While you do that update, the system cannot actually draw graphics (on the Saturn, not sure if it is the same on the Playstation).
Marvel Super Heroes had more frames on the Saturn with the 1mb cart, but it actually ran at like 10fps because it was not optimized to transfer all those frames efficiently.

Playstation may suffer the same way if you used more animation frames for a 2d sprite, so unless the extra ram increases the memory bandwidth at the same rate, it may not help that much.

The 4mb Saturn games got around this by using the extra memory to cache a ton of things like menus, music, or the extra 2nd fighter in Xmen vs SF. They didn't just fill it all with animation frames, they had to optimize the shit out of it. Also note that most of the Capcom fighters with bigger frames all had slowdown or framedrop on the Saturn.

>If PSX had the same amount of RAM as Saturn it would have the same amount of animation frames

Unlikely. The Saturn VDP2 heavily used tiling, so it could fit in more background graphics in its extra 512kb ram than the Playstation could if it had 512kb more VRAM.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 17:57:31 2015 No.2331273 >>2331265 >implying

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:03:30 2015 No.2331286 >>2331124 Not him, but the exact same thing applies to Crash Bandicoot. jus sayin

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:03:47 2015 No.2331287

>>2331235
No because the SNES can only play back sound from sound memory, and it has fuck all sound memory.

Some late games started dynamically updating samples to stream audio in the chip, so bigger carts did help those. But not many games did that.

It may be possible that early games did intentionally gimp sample quality so stuff fits in a smaller ROM chip, though. That was a major cost-cutting move at the time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:05:47 2015 No.2331290 >>2330201 >crash >floaty Have you actually played the game? It is literally the opposite of floaty.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:07:02 2015 No.2331291

>>2324089
N64 games simply couldn't compete mate. Nintendo made the retarded move of picking a GPU with shit texture storage, that's why most stuff on N64 is either plain color or uses a small infinitely stretched/repeated texture.
They probably thought the devs would come up with something smart like they did in Star Ocean, Mario RPG and other SNES games. Unfortunately that was not the case.

The PS1 on the other hand had more space for textures but didn't have real 3D or precise math so most "3D" games had weird graphical glitches (minimized thanks to the hard work of the developers) and the models would "shake" while in movement.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:09:03 2015 No.2331294

>>2330201
If there's something Crash is definitely, undisputedly not, it's floaty. I don't even know how someone can come to that conclusion. The controls on the first game were iffy, but not floaty. LittleBigPlanet is floaty.

Crash 2 and 3 have some of the most solid controls I've ever seen in a platformer, though.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:21:37 2015 No.2331316

>>2331291
No, the problem was that Crash had everything hand-made and optimized down to the bone, abused the CD drive beyond its rated spec, used vertex animation instead of skeleton animation, and fit in memory with something like 4 byte spare. N64 games meanwhile had to use Nintendos own pre-built microcode which were incredibly ineffective.

Compare Crash to some of the late gen N64 games that used custom microcode instead. Those would be more fair comparisons. Like Indy 64 or Conker or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 18:29:43 2015 No.2331321 >>2331208 There is no PS1 Quake 1 port. There is a Saturn port, which is pretty impressive considering hardware limitations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI0Q0VWOp3E

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:25:37 2015 No.2331404 >>2324231 im playing this now, just after warped and jesus i have never missed double jump in a game more than crash 2

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:26:57 2015 No.2331410

>>2331316

Even then, you would still be comparing an early PS1 title with a late N64 title.

If NaughtyDog had made a Crash Bandicoot game for the PS1 in 2001 that was as linear as the first ones, they could probably squeeze even more out of the system, of course by reducing the draw distance and perspective again.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:28:29 2015 No.2331414 >>2331404 I hate double jumping in platformers, especially if the character has no means of doing it that makes sense.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:31:25 2015 No.2331424 >>2331286 I am him, and I thought the exact same thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:36:44 2015 No.2331434 >>2331414 ive 100% 3 a bunch of times and played it to death, ive played 2 maybe 3/4 times total. i never finished 1, so everything crash to me is warped, time trials and ctr. double jump is the shrine i worship at in crashology.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:38:41 2015 No.2331436

>>2331167

Well, that's strange. I don't remember the music ending abruptly and starting back up, like with all other games that stream music from the disc, and if Spyro streams music from the disc, how does it stream the levels? Maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Spyro's music was still made with samples, just like Crash's music, just a bit more repetitive and almost a bit avant garde at times, in my opinion

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:39:14 2015 No.2331438 >>2324107 >>2329801 rekt

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 19:56:28 2015 No.2331462 >>2331434 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj-qLRguVXg skills

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:25:41 2015 No.2331505 >>2331434 I'd rather just keep the split jump move and extended spin from Crash 3, and then just introduce hanging instead of double jump (as long as the hanging does not interfere with the flow, which it does for so many games)

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:25:52 2015 No.2331506
File: 50 KB, 749x485, Clipboarder.2015.04.06.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2331436
Spyro's music is not sequenced like a MIDI or tracker, there are no instruments found with the samples ripped from .wad. When changing levels, first the music stops streaming, the previous level is cleared from memory, then the next level is loaded into the 4MB of RAM. After that the music switches tracks and starts playing. I don't think level data was streamed from the CD.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:28:36 2015 No.2331510 >>2331506 Correction, 2MB of RAM.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:29:12 2015 No.2331513

>>2331506
>I don't think level data was streamed from the CD.

That was for Crash. That game definitely streamed levels from the disc, the developers even pointed it out. Dunno if Spyro did it, but if it had streaming audio then it most likely did not stream levels.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:45:49 2015 No.2331526
File: 2.42 MB, 159x114, 1404894145102.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2331321
How is it that one team can manage a solid port of Quake 1 on the Saturn, yet another team can't manage to port Doom with an acceptable framerate? Lazy, lazy, lazy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:48:03 2015 No.2331528 >>2331526 >Lazy, lazy, lazy What have you ported lately? They probably tried their best and worked hard it's just that they were stupid.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 20:50:30 2015 No.2331532

>>2331528
But they fucking WERE lazy. The port of Doom on the saturn is in of itself a port of Doom from the PS1. They barely lifted a finger to optimize it for the different hardware specs. The Doom 64 team on the other hand, holy shit what a goddamn effort.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 21:08:52 2015 No.2331548 >>2324841 Galileo Figaro magnifico

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 21:27:33 2015 No.2331575

>>2331528
>They probably tried their best and worked hard it's just that they were stupid.

From what I heard of any other Doom ports, they indeed only worked with what they had and did the bare minimum for the game to work on the console. Back at the time, the publishers thought that porting a game to a console was pushing a big "recompile" button and then fix a few bugs. The 3DO port of Doom suffered exactly from that, while the 32x port was known to be rushed as all hell to make it for the release.

Deadlines can make a much bigger difference at the quality of a port than good coders or even knowing the system. Especially since upper management thinks, to this very day, that 30 coders can work at 30x faster than 1 coder.

>>2331526
Lobotomy used their own Saturn-optimized engine and rebuilt Quake (and Duke3d too) from the ground up on their own tools. Doom was a straight port.

Also, porting Quake bankrupted them because they massively undersold the game.

>>2331548
You poor boy from a poor family, nobody loves you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 21:33:09 2015 No.2331584 >>2331575 That's a damn shame. Weren't they responsible for the outstanding powerslave ports too? Man, that's harshe, they put so much extra time and effort into their ports and it showed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 6 21:39:29 2015 No.2331595 >>2331584 >Weren't they responsible for the outstanding powerslave ports too? That wasn't a port, that was their own original game. The PC and PSX versions were ports as I recall, and at least the PSX one was in-house (not sure about the PC one).

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 22:31:49 2015 No.2331675

>>2331205
>Name one 3D Playstation game with 100% stable 3D. Just one.
Never made any claims about overall stability, just affine mapping and "fully 3D". Still, Jumping Flash has no noticeable affine artefacts (assuming you're actually playing the game).

>This is about geometry + textures vs a full sprite 2D game.
Yes, I just noted that you can discount the storage cost of geometry.

3D requires more texture space to have the same apparent detail as 2D. 3D objects have a greater surface area than a single quad representing an object of similar size, and the entire surface needs texels. N64 versus SNES and Genesis illustrates the point perfectly. The latter machines feature graphics that seems rich and detailed, crammed into 512 Kb to a few MB. I can't think of a single fifth gen game on any platform that seems detailed. N64 games don't scrape as close as PSX ones, though.

Furthermore, most 2D games used little or no magnification/minification, hence their graphics are authored at exactly the displayed resolution, the entire aesthetic advantage of pixel art. In 3D, as the camera moves, textures can become greatly magnified (another fact worked around in the ultra linear trash Crash games).

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 22:33:23 2015 No.2331681

>>2331205
>Hah at that image with ridiculous bilinear sampling as if that shows anything of value.
Nothing ridiculous there, just normal bilinear filtering at increasing texture resolutions, against nearest-neighbor at the same resolutions. To be fair it was made to refute the specific claim that bilinear filtering is always more realistic, in another thread. But that's still along the lines of your argument:
>Unfiltered only looks better for stylization (trying to replicate 2D games, like Mega Man Legends) Filtered is objectively better for everything else.

The only games that still look any good at all from the era are highly stylized, not necessarily trying to replicate 2D styles. Doom looks better with nearest-neighbor, in large part because it was designed to be seen that way, but also because nearest-neighbor often looks better with very low texture detail, UNLESS the extreme blur of bilinear filtering is specifically desired.

Obviously the N64 is technically superior except in media storage capacity. The common argument that its bastardized bilinear made for much better looking games is bogus. Anyone else can clearly see it's just a blurry mess. It was a stupid decision on Nintendo's part to even include the feature, without which we could've had better framerates. I suppose the reasoning was it could reduce aliasing with extremely sparsely detailed textures. What gets me is the amazingly weak use of high-frequency repetition in N64 texture work. It was very often better in PSX games (e.g. MGS). Presumably the performance cost of interpolation with tons of texels was punishing. Everyone blames cartridge space limitations for the blur, but since the machine can use plenty of textures at once, it can't be the whole story.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 22:49:04 2015 No.2331709

>>2331675
>I can't think of a single fifth gen game on any platform that seems detailed.

I'd argue that Conker BFD was definitely chock full of small details. Not the details like one tree having 167293749 individual strands of leafs you can inspect one by one, but small details like footsteps where appropriate, money falling out of his tail, stuff dripping from the ceilings, the water in the slicer tunnels being full of cut apart limbs, all the textured particle effects (small flames, vomit splooging around)... little stuff like that.

Hell, all the Xbox port did was bump up the polygon count, add fur shading, and xbox live multiplayer. Didn't add a single extra graphical effect other than the fur.

Anonymous Mon Apr 6 22:56:18 2015 No.2331723

>>2331192
>Meaningless technobabble.

Depends how you define a hardware being 3d capable. If it all boils down to what you see on the screen, then the C64 was 3d capable (Star Wars Arcade ran wireframe graphics - I have the original cassette still).

If you define it as the hardware being capable of computing and displaying 3d, then the Playstation was only halfway there: it could transform 3d objects in hardware, but any drawing operation was strictly 2d with zero depth information. And transformation only matters from a performance point of view since you can do it in software...

The Saturn, oddly enough, could project up to three perspective correct textured planes with its background engine - with rudimentary per-polygon sorting.

N64 was full 3d, being a silicon graphics workstation turned into a toy.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 00:26:26 2015 No.2331863

>>2331681
>Everyone blames cartridge space limitations for the blur, but since the machine can use plenty of textures at once, it can't be the whole story.
N64 texture cache bottleneck affected how many texture tiles could be onscreen without hitting a fill rate wall.

You know how Vigilante 8 blurs terrain past a certain point, replacing textures with a smooth colour? That's related to N64 fill rate problems. (They were actually remarkably interesting games from a tech perspective.)

>>2331709
>I'd argue that Conker BFD was definitely chock full of small details.
Conker has exquisite sound design, and it has amazing shit like Conker tossing a drink can and it bouncing if it hits solid objects or splashing if it hits water.

There's also a neat texture effect where those guys with flamethrowers in the tunnels get animated fire textures on their reflected visors.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 01:34:47 2015 No.2331980
File: 524 KB, 1280x982, 1373930604389.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2331681
>I suppose the reasoning was it could reduce aliasing with extremely sparsely detailed textures
Nearest neighbor looks good with some textures because it can give the faux illusion of detail with aliasing. For texturing done right, bilinear will generally make the textures look much better. Pic related at Conker with nearest-neighbor. Big difference, huh?

>Everyone blames cartridge space limitations for the blur, but since the machine can use plenty of textures at once, it can't be the whole story.
The whole story is simply inefficient use of the texture cache resulting in lower resolution textures. The entire problem with N64 textures is not that they are filtered but LOW RESOLUTION. You can only draw 64x64 pixels at a time. To tile 64x64 to create nicer higher resolution textures you have to put pressure on:

1) The programmer who has to implement the streaming
2) The artist who has to cut his textures into little bits that blend properly with other little bits (make texture seams less visible)
3) The limited storage space of the cartridge

It's not hard to see why most N64 developers called it a day and did not bother to texture properly.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 01:42:23 2015 No.2331987
File: 639 KB, 720x486, 01copy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2331863
>N64 texture cache bottleneck affected how many texture tiles could be onscreen without hitting a fill rate wall.
Actually, texturing was never responsible for the fill-rate wall on the N64. That was the z-buffer.

The texture cache is the single fastest component of the system. The bottleneck would be RAM latency for loading textures from the RAM into the texture cache (an entirely software, not hardware, managed process). Every game would need its own independent streaming and RAM fragmenting process to optimize texturing speed. Most didn't bother.

>You know how Vigilante 8 blurs terrain past a certain point, replacing textures with a smooth colour?
I saw this trick more often on Playstation, quite honestly. It's just basic LOD. Spyro is the most prominent user of the technique. Take for instance this emulated image. See how the nearest mountains are textured but the distant ones are shaded. Similar thing for the walls. The nearest ones are textured, the further ones are shaded. This technique was good on the PSX for not just performance sake but also because of affine texture mapping: you have to tessellate like crazy to prevent distant 3D textures from distorting, so better to drop the texturing and just shade.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 02:38:52 2015 No.2332041 >>2331709 >Didn't add a single extra graphical effect other than the fur. There were other shaders, like bump mapping, most noticeably on the water,

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 03:08:22 2015 No.2332074 >>2331321 Knowing what I know of the Saturn hardware, its neat as hell seeing all changes made to the maps to make them play nice. Also, that water texture overlay looks atmospheric as fuck, especially in level 2.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 03:38:24 2015 No.2332113 >>2332074 That ain't even the Quake engine. Same engine as Saturn Duke 3D and Powerslave.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 05:37:56 2015 No.2332224 >>2330204 http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2015/chart/position/13/

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 05:44:03 2015 No.2332230 File: 22 KB, 610x344, not sure if.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2332224 >http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2015/chart/position/13/ http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2015/chart/position/27/

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 05:59:32 2015 No.2332239 File: 2.91 MB, 640x352, 6459547346.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2332224 >>2332230 Crash should be glad he's not in a complete troll list.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 06:14:21 2015 No.2332252 This is a cute video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuH7RDIDZN4

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 07:08:53 2015 No.2332289 >>2326480 >So in the end, you have 3 different versions, each with their pros and cons. Is there anything wrong with the PSP version?

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 10:13:47 2015 No.2332435

>>2332289

Actually, I was talking about just the PS, N64 and PC versions, never tried Rockman Dash collection on PSP. I wonder if they are just ports of the PS1, or they actually fixed shit on it too (and maybe fucked up some, too).

I have a PSP so I might check it out sometime. I forgot that existed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 12:28:30 2015 No.2332608 >>2332435 As far as I know they are emulated.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 15:53:48 2015 No.2332939 >>2332230 >>2332239 #REKT

>>	Crashog Tue Apr 7 15:54:06 2015 No.2332940 >>2324107 Best part of the games

>>	Crashog Tue Apr 7 15:57:09 2015 No.2332950 >>2330201 Banjo Tooie > Crash 2 > Most of the ps1 library > Mario 64 sorry bro

>>	Crashog Tue Apr 7 15:58:55 2015 No.2332956 >>2330204 A better comparison would be crash 2 or crash 3 to Banjo Tooie. Crash 1 music was simply not as good as crash 2

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:03:29 2015 No.2332965 >>2330204 What? The Banjo track was so much better Also when you think about the large amount of music Grant Kirkhope composed for the n64, it's pretty amazing that each track was so memorable

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:05:08 2015 No.2332969 >>2330896 holy fuck this conker track is good

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:08:26 2015 No.2332980 >>2331291 >that's why most stuff on N64 is either plain color or uses a small infinitely stretched/repeated texture. I honestly think this a myth. Most n64 games don't look like that.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:10:18 2015 No.2332982

>>2331709
>I'd argue that Conker BFD was definitely chock full of small details. Not the details like one tree having 167293749 individual strands of leafs you can inspect one by one, but small details like footsteps where appropriate, money falling out of his tail, stuff dripping from the ceilings, the water in the slicer tunnels being full of cut apart limbs, all the textured particle effects (small flames, vomit splooging around)... little stuff like that.

Conker BFD is so full of technology that it blows my mind. There's more detail in that game than in the vast majority of modern games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:25:27 2015 No.2333001 >>2332965 The best Banjo tune Grant Kirkhope composed on the N64 would be this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYhV4VZDfd0

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:30:02 2015 No.2333007 >>2332965 >>2330204 The best Banjo track would be this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYhV4VZDfd0 [Remove]

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:32:51 2015 No.2333012 >>2332980 It's practically a meme now. But it does describe one N64 game perfectly: Quest 64. Quest 64 is pretty much the only game that PS1 owners would have played on N64 because it's an RPG. Sad, really.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:38:39 2015 No.2333018

>>2333012
compare ff7, which was originally designed to be run on the n64, to ff8, which wasn't.

huge fucking difference.

things did get better after nintendo released the memory expansion but don't try to play this one off. Textures have always been one of the weekpoints of the N64

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:49:17 2015 No.2333039

>>2324105
>>2327794
I disagree and agree at the same time, on the grounds that they are different games. Crash has camera-centered linear levels that allow for the usage of smaller localized textures that add to greater detail.

Conker has big, open-world levels that focus on exploration and changing camera angle frequently. So it must rely on larger, more generally applied textures, for the sake of loading less assets and keeping a stabler framerate.

This is, however, a consequence of the differing gameplay of both games. However I have to praise Crash by being a game that knew how to use its resources really fucking well to amazing effect. The game still looks great today.

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 16:58:16 2015 No.2333053

>>2333018
>compare ff7, which was originally designed to be run on the n64
No it wasn't. Stop regurgitating this myth.

>things did get better after nintendo released the memory expansion
Conker, one of the most technically advanced games, does not even use it and cannot even use it

>Textures have always been one of the weekpoints of the N64
By contrary, I'd argue that textures are one of the weakpoints of the PS1. Affine map glitches, inability to texture things far from the camera, and massive amounts of aliasing are far worse than the occasionally blurry N64 texture.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 7 17:58:13 2015 No.2333167 File: 14 KB, 231x227, 1329770696625.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >some people actually arguing this hard as to which console is "better," using terms like "but don't try to play this one off" o u guyz xD

Anonymous Tue Apr 7 19:02:08 2015 No.2333258
File: 2.28 MB, 139x235, 834523987.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2332956

The reason Crash 1's soundtrack is a little bit iffy is because the composer had to rewrite the entire soundtrack, because Sony or Universal felt like the music wasn't "video game-like enough".

Josh Mancell has said there's about an entire CD of unreleased music from the game.

The only original track published so far is the one from the Papu Papu boss fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lmud4L_Xmw

Compare that to the final one, which much to Josh's dislike, is heavily compressed like all the other tracks in-game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4__qj-kluE

So here you can hear how the music was meant to be. A lot more ambient than it ended up being. Now, in this case, I think the final one works better because it's a boss fight, but I wonder what the normal levels sound like.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 00:25:07 2015 No.2333692
File: 1.89 MB, 308x218, 8BqcV.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

and, after all this arguing, the only thing that matters is crash could not have been done on n64.

one level of crash used more memory for a single level than any n64 cart had, total.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 00:39:54 2015 No.2333704

>>2333053
I love FF7's bright, crazy modern art style graphics. FF8 just as standard warping textures everywhere and everything is washed out. Really ugly by comparison.

And yeah, at no point was it an N64 game. The render that rumour is based on isn't even of FF7 characters.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 00:44:44 2015 No.2333707 >>2333692 >one level of crash used more memory for a single level than any n64 cart had, total. That's what happens when you code your engine around shit hardware.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 00:51:28 2015 No.2333713 >>2333692 Bloatware isn't something to be proud of.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 00:53:17 2015 No.2333715 >>2333692 Where'd you get that idea? The data structure files for Crash Bandicoot 3 (and I assume it's much less for the previous two games) are about 3MB per level. The game itself is like 40MB or less

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 04:22:43 2015 No.2333905

>>2331723
>Depends how you define a hardware being 3d capable. If it all boils down to what you see on the screen, then the C64 was 3d capable
In particular, the notion of a "3D console" / "3D machine" in that post is meaningless technobabble, for this reason. The Playstation is hardware-accelerated as intended to produce 3D graphics. There's nothing profound in 3D graphics about explicit depth information which, even today, is often not needed and not used in a given technique. In fact, implicit depth via submission order relied upon on the Playstation is still used commonly used today.

>>2331980
>For texturing done right, bilinear will generally make the textures look much better. Pic related at Conker with nearest-neighbor. Big difference, huh?
These comparisons never work when you take something out of the context it was designed for. Look: an extreme close-up showing heavy gradients, and texels bumping right against Gouraud-shaded geometry on the same object. You wouldn't do that if you'd built with NN from the beginning.

In any case, the point wasn't that bilinear isn't useful, but that it was an overall detriment on N64 (barring some other technical details of the system).

>>2333053
I'd agree with both of you that texturing is a weak aspect of both systems, but where are you getting this from?
>inability to texture things far from the camera
There are games with wide ranges of minification, like Jumping Flash, so there's no apparent technical inability. As discussed above, some games don't use textures at a distance as an optimization- sensible, considering that a maximally minified texture is simply a single pixel of a particular color.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 04:36:14 2015 No.2333914 >>2333715 This. >>2333692 is a baseless claim and you can check it yourself if you don't believe it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 04:41:12 2015 No.2333919 >>2331321 that is jaw droppingly impressive

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 04:42:15 2015 No.2333921

>>2333905
>There's nothing profound in 3D graphics about explicit depth information which, even today, is often not needed and not used in a given technique. In fact, implicit depth via submission order relied upon on the Playstation is still used commonly used today.
3D is not even about the data that goes into it, but the impression of correct perspective to the viewer. A painting is formed on a 2D canvas (much like games have a 2D framebuffer), and what determines whether the painting is a "3D" painting or not is whether the artist has taken into account proper perspective. The PSX's rendering faculties are not reliable enough to maintain proper perspective even when texturing is not used (low precision integers and improper sorting can also mess with the impression of perspective). PSX is simply not a "rock solid" 3D machine like the N64 is.

>You wouldn't do that if you'd built with NN from the beginning.
NN essentially limits artistry. It forces you to stylize everything in particular ways so it doesn't look horrible. Bilinear is just more reliable for more situations.

>it was an overall detriment on N64 (barring some other technical details of the system).
Compare Turok 1 with Quack mode on and off then get back to me. I'll be fair: NN does have some sharpness advantages in this game when you are standing still looking at a wall, but in motion the aliasing from NN shimmers and looks ugly.

>There are games with wide ranges of minification, like Jumping Flash, so there's no apparent technical inability
It's possible, but not generally practical. If you want distant textures you have to tessellate to prevent distortion, pretty much burning through your polygon count on things in the background that are not the focus of the player's gaze. On N64 you can just draw a small number of massive distant triangles covered in mipmapped textures, and you're set, your polygon count is otherwise unharmed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 05:17:58 2015 No.2333943 >>2327086 I played the PS1 and kind of liked it, but the fucking FOG OF WAR MODE it presents makes for some bullshit. The N64 screenshot looks beautiful, too bad I missed out on that version.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 05:46:06 2015 No.2333974 >>2333713 The first game was indeed bloatware, but Crash 2 and 3 weren't.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 05:53:50 2015 No.2333980

>>2333715

I don't know if it's just silly programmer talk or not, but Andy Gavin said something about the PS1 being really bad at drawing big polygon surfaces, but good at smaller ones, while the N64 was the opposite. It makes sense to me, when you look at the aesthetics of Crash Bandicoot and Mario 64.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 06:10:05 2015 No.2333986

>PS fanboys
>want to check out PS1 for ones
>take half a day setting up the emulator and hunting for bios
>start playing Castlevania Symphony of the night
>it's boring as shit
>try Crash
>the level design and enemy patterns are short and rudimentary
>already played GC MGS
>already played PC version of Legacy of Kain

really enjoying Omega Boost though, gonna try some RPGs and see if their gaming mechanics aren't complete ass, hoping to find at least something on the same level of gameplay as Megaman Battle network, because it has the best battle system ever.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 06:15:57 2015 No.2333992 >>2333986 >>start playing Castlevania Symphony of the night >>it's boring as shit I bet you love Super Metroid.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 06:25:55 2015 No.2333995 >>2333992 who doesn't?

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 06:27:10 2015 No.2333996 >>2333995 I only sort of like Metroid.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 06:40:22 2015 No.2334007

>>2333980
PSX has trouble with large polygons because the coordinate system is imprecise. If the large polygons are textured there's a second problem; affine mapping and large polygons don't mix.

N64's tranform pipeline is programmable, so theoretically it should be good at any type of polygon as long as the right microcode is loaded.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 07:23:53 2015 No.2334034

>>2333986
PS1 has more than RPGs, shame it overshadows everything else on the system for most people. Give Silent Bomber (last I checked this doesn't emulate well though, look into that first if you're emulating), Strider 2, Megaman Legends 1&2, Tron Bonne Misadventures, Ape Escape, Tomba 1&2 and Jumping Flash 1&2 a look too.

Dunno why people can't just be fans of multiple systems instead of allying solely to one as if they were sports teams or something, it makes even less sense doing this with easily emulatable retro consoles as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 12:15:31 2015 No.2334313 >>2334007 Yeah, I saw that in Tomb Raider. When hanging from ledges, at that steep camera angle, the entire wall you're hanging from can disappear at some points.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 8 14:43:22 2015 No.2334607 File: 2.62 MB, 2434x2386, Faces of Crash.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Crash Bandicoot. The most expressive video game character ever.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 18:44:03 2015 No.2334905

>>2333986

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think a good platformer should be rudimentary like that. Crash Bandicoot got it right in that sense, what should have been done with Crash was make more and more complex environments to take Crash through with the same basic gameplay, but it never really happened, unfortunately.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 23:47:31 2015 No.2335334

>>2333921
>3D is not even about the data that goes into it, but the impression of correct perspective to the viewer.
The perceptual argument is even weaker than the other. PSX games can get hairy, but at no point does the brain come close to dropping a dimension as it parses the swimmy images. Everything in a PSX game is simply a low-quality approximate projection of 3D; on N64, high-quality.

Furthermore, some games worked around the limitations admirably. Jumping Flash facilitates spatial perception much better than Mario 64.

>low precision integers and improper sorting can also mess with the impression of perspective
Super FX games didn't suddenly become unreadable when the N64 came out. I can see these things being problematic (only) for people who grew up with high-precision, depth-buffered 3D.

Anonymous Wed Apr 8 23:49:09 2015 No.2335336

>>2333921
>NN essentially limits artistry. It forces you to stylize everything in particular ways so it doesn't look horrible.
Bilinear filtering is a good general option given sufficient texture detail, that wasn't reached until around the turn of the century.

The N64's other technical limitations limited artistry far more egregiously than NN-only would have. As stated, I suspect the two are connected- the N64 simply could not do without bilinear filtering. Anyway, the point is texture filtering is not a great aesthetic success of the N64. Where the PSX showed good textures swimming around and spazzing out, the N64 showed shitty limited-channel, magnified & blurry, or highly repetitive textures in proper perspective. Either way the results aren't so hot.

>Compare Turok 1 with Quack mode on and off then get back to me.
Right in what you quoted:
>These comparisons never work when you take something out of the context it was designed for.
Temporal aliasing really is the most significant drawback of NN filtering, but with textures well-designed for it, it's not a major problem (particularly on the CRTs these games were made for).

>It's possible, but not generally practical...
Real N64 games have no generalized draw distance advantage, so apparently it's practical. Also note he said "inability"- if we're talking things that hamper performance, then concessions had to be made and restrictions placed on N64 games, too. Any other notion is bullshit special pleading. For instance, sometimes the vaunted z-buffer wasn't used at all.

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 02:04:47 2015 No.2335527

>>2335336
>N64 showed shitty limited-channel, magnified & blurry, or highly repetitive textures
Usually not a fair comparison. PSX games will show a couple of high resolution textures in view due to being fixed camera games deliberately trying to prevent you from seeing too much (Crash Bandicoot for example, the path twists and turns) and then will shade everything else. In comparison, try the haunted mansion in a free-roaming game like Conker. The textures aren't super high-res, but they certainly aren't blurry, but the thing is that EVERYTHING is textures and they are extremely varied, I dare say far more texture variety in a frame than any PSX game I have ever seen. That's the trade-off for not being high resolution, but it more than makes up for it; the variety is brilliant and the textures are more medium-res than low-res.

Any time N64 games lose out in visual comparisons to PSX games it tends to be that people have inappropriate compared different genres (and different types of games in those genres) and then failed to take into account how these genres have different technical demands (Mario 64 vs Crash Bandicoot as the most prominent example).

>>2335334
>Real N64 games have no generalized draw distance advantage
Apparently you missed games like Ocarina of Time, Banjo Kazooie, Banjo Tooie, hell even Mario 64.

Jumping Flash is great compared to other 1995 games, but its draw distance pales in comparison to the N64 games that came after it.

Even Spyro lacks the draw distance of Mario 64, that's why the levels tend to be interconnected but walled open areas, and even to achieve what it did it needed to drop distant textures and shade them instead.

>then concessions had to be made and restrictions placed on N64 games
Those concessions pale in comparison. The exact same task would require like 10x the polygons on PSX.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 02:17:10 2015 No.2335547 If you actually prefer nearest neighbor filtering, I'm pretty sure you can force it with glide64.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 02:39:43 2015 No.2335570 File: 441 KB, 1440x1080, Glide64_ZELDA_MAJORA'S_MASK_01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2335547 It's so beautiful.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 04:32:06 2015 No.2335678 File: 558 KB, 1440x1080, Glide64_BANJO_TOOIE_04.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Some more.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 04:33:16 2015 No.2335680 File: 299 KB, 1440x1080, Glide64_WAVE_RACE_64_01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 10:49:01 2015 No.2335907 >>2335570 >>2335678 >>2335680 These look like they could run just fine on the PS1

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 11:20:10 2015 No.2335934 >>2335570 >>2335678 >>2335680 If you wanted to be fair, you'd post comparisons instead of just the images by themselves.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 11:27:52 2015 No.2335947 >>2335907 I'm sure they couldn't run the same way. Polycount and draw distance would be a struggle for the good ol PS. There could be ports, but they'd be inferior.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 11:43:23 2015 No.2335962 >>2335680 This is obviously running in HD on an emulator.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 11:50:06 2015 No.2335974 I think Turok 2 looks better. Too bad about the frame-rate when you have an explosion or more than one enemy on screen.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:02:21 2015 No.2335984 >>2335974 Turok 2 is way too much for the N64 to handle, much less the Playstation. They did try to get the Turok engine running on PSX, though, check out the Playstation port of Armorines. It is awful. Thank god Turok 2 has a PC version.

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:07:09 2015 No.2335989

>>2335984
>Turok 2 is way too much for the N64 to handle
I think had Acclaim written custom microcode it could have had a good chance at running with a stable framerate

Default one is terrible for high-poly (it's fairly OK at lighting though, better than PSX), and that's pretty much what Turok 2 is, high poly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:28:03 2015 No.2336007 >>2335962 And with nearest neighbor filtering forced to make it look more PSX like instead of N64's default bilinear.

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:28:41 2015 No.2336008
File: 79 KB, 640x480, Turok2screen3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2335989
The high resolution doesn't help, either. Is there a single high resolution game on the N64 that doesn't crawl?

I'd have preferred if they (N64 devs in general) focused on high framerate low res games.

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:35:12 2015 No.2336015
File: 292 KB, 640x480, Raptoids.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2336008
It is really hard to compare Turok 2 graphics in general, because
1)they are a mixed bag, some parts look as good as the Dreamcast, others are just fugly due to bad art
2)most screenshots are from the PC version
3)no one ever posts pics from PSX FPS games (For good reason, they look like shit)

These pics are probably from the PC version, but this is the resolution the N64 runs it in.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 12:36:04 2015 No.2336017 >>2336008 >Is there a single high resolution game on the N64 that doesn't crawl? Battle for Naboo Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 13:17:43 2015 No.2336085 >>2333707 nintendrones at their finest

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 13:31:01 2015 No.2336112 >>2335947 Are you sure when there are games like Spyro and CTR around?

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 13:33:54 2015 No.2336115 >>2336112 Spyro and CTR are very simplistic compared to Turok 2, particularly in terms of lighting. Spyro and CTR have no real-time lighting at all, actually. Just faked.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 13:44:36 2015 No.2336125 >>2325009 mega man 64 had voices. so it is possible the ps1 version of mega man legends is vastly superior, but I'm just using it as an example of voices on n64

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:12:54 2015 No.2336161 >>2336125 Conker and Star Fox 64 also had voices, though nowhere near CD audio quality.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:15:59 2015 No.2336165 >>2336008 I think Rayman 2 was compatible with that expansion thing. I haven't played that version, but I think it's supposed to run at 60.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:16:59 2015 No.2336168 >>2336125 >>2336161 The South Park games did too, iirc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:17:15 2015 No.2336169 >>2336161 In any case, Playstation's CD audio capabilities were not used for sound effects and voices (99.9% of the time at least)

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:26:39 2015 No.2336186 >>2333943 'Fog of war' is when unexplored parts of a map are initially obscured, usually in top-down strategy games. Not being able to see very far due to fogging effects is generally just called 'fog'.

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:31:29 2015 No.2336193

>>2336161
No game would need cd quality audio for speech, that would be a waste of space.

Conker had a frankly ridiculous amount of speech and music. I wish we had exact figures of just how much, I wouldn't be surprised if it had hours long of speech.

Also as I recall it was MP3 recording, and that's how they fit it all in the cart. Saturn and PSX would have been too weak to decode that, they'd have to use their own simpler adpcm formats, which would've used much more space - Conker on the Playstation would've had a huge amount of space taken by speech (not even going into audio, if they had those all pre-recorded, I'm not even sure if the game would have fit on a single CD).

Anonymous Thu Apr 9 14:48:31 2015 No.2336218

>>2336193
>Also as I recall it was MP3 recording, and that's how they fit it all in the cart. Saturn and PSX would have been too weak to decode that, they'd have to use their own simpler adpcm formats
Pretty much this. The Saturn's sound processor, the Motorola 68000 isn't fast enough to decode MP3, and the PS1's sound chip is just a fixed function DSP so can't be made to decode anything that it wasn't designed to decode. Their CPUs aren't a particularly good fit to decode it either.

The N64 decode Conker's MP3 on the GPU, which had its own programmable audio microcode. Decoding audio, even MP3, isn't too demanding of something like a GPU, so it was a good fit. It also gave Rare an opportunity to trash the inefficient default audio microcode that Nintendo provided them and come up with their own more efficient solution.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 15:07:58 2015 No.2336247 >>2336218 Later Saturn games did use ADX though, and there was a speech variant of that which had compression ratios inbetween normal adpcm and MP3. Not sure how viable was that next to graphics-heavy games, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 9 15:13:03 2015 No.2336254 >>2336247 If Sega managed to get the decompression working on the 68000 then there would have been no penalty. It would have almost certainly been used if the SH-2s didn't have DMA to the 512KB sound RAM.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 10 10:10:32 2015 No.2337856 >>2324089 >N64 emulation will never be as stable as PSX emulation why even live

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 10 12:27:37 2015 No.2338029 >>2333995 I don't. It's boring as shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 10 16:24:00 2015 No.2338341 >>2335907 There's no way the draw distance would be that high or the worlds would be as big

Anonymous Fri Apr 10 22:07:24 2015 No.2338783

>>2335527
>PSX games will show a couple of high resolution textures in view due to being fixed camera games deliberately trying to prevent you from seeing too much
Bogus generalization. Free-roaming games are just as prominent on PSX. In PSX games with decent texture work, the texels are more-or-less evenly distributed across the scene, because such is necessary to achieve a strong look with NN filtering. Almost universal on N64 is extreme variance in texel density, which is ameliorated but not totally concealed by bilinear filtering.

>Any time N64 games lose out in visual comparisons to PSX games it tends to be that people have inappropriate compared different genres (and different types of games in those genres) and then failed to take into account how these genres have different technical demands
Jumping Flash compares favorably to Mario 64; Vanark to Star Fox 64; Wipeout 3 to F-Zero X (though the latter's framerate is impressive)...

Anonymous Fri Apr 10 22:10:28 2015 No.2338791

>>2335527
contd.

Metal Gear Solid looks better than any N64 game. Of course plenty of N64 games are more technically advanced, so it's largely down to artistry- but the point is it's thanks to some degree of artistic freedom. Textures with actual color variance and hard variations generally could be authored.

N64 games are chock full of hacks to shoehorn in textures. Prominent in most N64 games is the ole' constant albedo multiplied a grayscale texture. It's fuck-ugly, all of the time. There are other sorts where I've no clue what's going on, like the RGB noisy ones that look like a compressed texture where all you see are artefacts. Either N64 artists were hacks, or that there were fundamental limitations to what could be achieved. The latter seems more likely. Pathological on N64 is characters that look great and environments that look shit, suffered even in its most technically excellent games, like Conker and Indiana Jones.

Good-looking N64 games either use high-frequency texture repetition well (especially in context of abstract environments), or successfully de-emphasize textures altogether. Games that try too hard to swim upstream look like puke.

>Apparently you missed games like Ocarina of Time, Banjo Kazooie, Banjo Tooie, hell even Mario 64.
There certainly are N64 games with long draw distances, but what I had in mind is that technically mediocre games on either platform hover around the same draw distance, and draw distances get just as tight on N64 (Turok). Anyway, the Banjo games have a very tight FOV, and all the games you listed are not wide-open like Jumping Flash (many big occluders are always present).

Anyway you've missed the point: the N64 is obviously more powerful, so higher demands can be placed on it at the outset, yet it does not lead to better visuals because of the system's peculiarities.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 11 08:39:01 2015 No.2339506 >>2332239 >>2333258 What game/thing are these gifs from?

Anonymous Sat Apr 11 08:49:10 2015 No.2339510
File: 23 KB, 298x224, SP1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2338791
>Metal Gear Solid looks better than any N64 game.

For someone who tries his best to articulate thoughtful arguments, that's such a subjective statement.
I think MGS doesn't look as good as, say, Sin and Punishment or Evangelion 64.

I'd argue MGS doesn't even look better than Ocarina of Time overall. I'll admit, the model for the Metal Gear REX is impressive, but in general the graphics are hit and miss. It still works because they were very clever with the limitations, but characters are still faceless for the most part. Or their faces are made of just a few abstract pixels.

I had both PS1 and N64 growing up, N64 was far more impressive, but sometimes (like in MGS1) the devs were clever enough to pull off really good stuff on the PS1. But, the same happened with the N64, with games like Sin and Punishment for example.

The key here is how good the developers were working around the limited hardware, not how good the console itself was.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 11 11:55:08 2015 No.2339787 File: 828 KB, 1280x720, tumblr_mucdquKAJF1s15uz0o5_12801[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2338341 As always, Spyro.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 11 12:03:44 2015 No.2339804 >>2336193 I don't care about the duration of speech as a whole in games like Conker, but rather the sound quality of said voices, which is severely lacking compared to anything from CD audio on every PS1 game that has voice acting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 12 00:18:44 2015 No.2341034 File: 34 KB, 625x626, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324089

Anonymous Mon Apr 13 01:49:41 2015 No.2343136
File: 64 KB, 316x256, mgs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2339510
The characters in MGS are crude, but only noticeably so in cutscenes, not normal gameplay. Detail of the characters and environment are in harmony- rare on N64, where the geometry and texture budget tends to skew far toward characters (true on Sin & Punishment). Key to MGS's look is high contrast textures, running all the way from white to black, with hard variation in both albedo and lighting, with near-constant texel density. You don't see that sort of thing much on N64, because the hardware doesn't suit it.

Didn't have either console growing up, but played lots more N64 at friends' and relatives' houses. The only time I was *impressed* was playing Mario 64 on a kiosk in 1996. After that, most visuals on the system were something to grin & bear, not a source of joy in themselves. Pretty much the same as PSX.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 14 09:45:49 2015 No.2345345 And so the console war never comes to a conclusion. We may never get to know whether consistent quality 3D or stable 3D was the better option in the mid-90's.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 05:02:00 2015 No.2346941 http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/02/making-crash-bandicoot-part-1/ How has this not been posted yet

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 05:42:34 2015 No.2346963

>>2324808
> Virtua Fighter 2
> Looks worse in motion

60fps running at 708x480 resolution when most PS1 and N64 games ran at 320x240 including Mario 64, Ocarina of Time and often times struggled to even hit 30fps (hell Ocarina struggles to hit anything about 20fps lol).

Not to mention Virtua Fighter 2 was released on the Saturn in fucking 1995.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 05:47:57 2015 No.2346965 >>2346963 He's saying VF2 has 2D backgrounds. A fair criticism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 10:32:09 2015 No.2347228 File: 49 KB, 640x464, 1399198545177.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >All this people saying CB is not fun

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 10:36:14 2015 No.2347230 >>2346963 I love VF2 but >Not to mention Virtua Fighter 2 was released on the Saturn in fucking 1995. And you weren't even born then to experience it first hand.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 10:57:16 2015 No.2347256 File: 30 KB, 634x389, 3375745[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Sonic Adventure 2 (2001) looks better than every single Playstation 2 game

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:06:09 2015 No.2347270 File: 2 KB, 256x224, kirbyv2[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Kirby's Adventure (1993) looks better than every single Master System game

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:11:21 2015 No.2347276 >>2324119 Perfect Dark and Conker look better. DK64 is an extremely ugly game. I'm annoyed that I even bought it without seeing what I was in for.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:13:27 2015 No.2347278 >>2335570 What's up with the textures not being blurry?

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:15:50 2015 No.2347282 >>2324110 >saturnfags

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:19:37 2015 No.2347286

>>2325020
I don't think so. Grant Kirkhope recalled space issues on the cartridge for sound when making the voices. They are the strange pokemon-esque sound they are because only one or two samples needed to be present for a character's voice, the rest could be performed through sound manipulation during gameplay. Even still, voices were reused and changed in pitch to give the effect of uniqueness between a few characters.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:22:32 2015 No.2347294 >>2347276 It's not extremely ugly but i don't see the appeal, i think all the other rare games look better. I remember it running smoother than banjo tooie or conker though.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:47:04 2015 No.2347323 >>2324154 >So? N64 is N64 >No >Yes they do Oh wow.

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:52:39 2015 No.2347330

The N64 had better specs than the PS1 on paper, but in practice the PS1 had a ton of better looking games. Why? The PS1 had an easier architecture to develop for, and Sony weren't complete dicks when it came to handing out dev tools like Nintendo were.

To this day, it boggles my mind how much Nintendo managed to royally fuck up the N64. If they kept pretty much the same hardware, but did away with the carts and the vaseline filtering, and actually gave developers access to decent tools, they would have done a lot better.

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 11:58:15 2015 No.2347340

Nintendo really fucked up with the lack of CD drive. They got the best technology but seriously the 64DD was a retarded idea when CDs where so practical.

They still could have released first party games in cartridge and advertise the no loading times thing and leave the CD drive to 3rd party. Just design a decent video codec so they could use FMV.

They should have swallowed their pride on that, maybe japan would have seen the N64 as a worthy successor of the SNES and be more on par with sony. Nintendo negligence towards developers didn't helped either.

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 12:06:54 2015 No.2347352

>>2347330
>>2347340
>Nintendo really fucked up

No, they didn't. Single/double speed CD drives are garbage. N64 games load promptly and N64s all still work because they don't have disc trays and lasers.

10 bucks was an acceptable premium to pay for a nice medium. And no, voices and cgi movies aren't things worth having.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 12:29:22 2015 No.2347385 >>2347352 Play Mega Man 64 and get back to me on that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 12:31:38 2015 No.2347393 >>2347385 N64 games only have loading times when devs are too cheap to buy bigger carts and compress the game data instead.

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 13:07:59 2015 No.2347448

>>2347330
I'm sure the N64 architecture wasn't any harder to develop for than the Playstation, it being a derivative of an industry standard 3d workstation.

It had some hardware oversights (memory latency, texture size limitation), and Nintendo were complete dicks. That was the problem.

Sony was literally sucking off developers who could do good games, while Nintendo was still operating as if they had monopoly on the market. Plus they did not release proper documentation on writing custom microcode, even when they did it was only for a few select devs and it was all in japanese.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 13:13:58 2015 No.2347454 >there are people who actually debate this on the internet in 2015

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 13:15:47 2015 No.2347458 File: 30 KB, 324x289, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2347448 >Sony was literally sucking off developers who could do good games hot

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 13:44:54 2015 No.2347518 >>2347458 >you will never suck off Hideo Kojima

Anonymous Wed Apr 15 13:58:36 2015 No.2347538

If there's one thing I've learned from reading retro discussion forums over the years, it's this.

The N64 will always be graphically judged by its ugliest games. The PS1 and Saturn will always be graphically judged by their best looking games.

Tall poppy syndrome?

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 15 14:07:46 2015 No.2347549 >>2347538 The N64 was average across the board. The PS1 had some utterly awful looking games, and some that looked fantastic. The Saturn had some bad looking games, and some that looked fantastic.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 04:54:07 2015 No.2348894 [DELETED]

>>2347256

Even Wrath of Cortex (2001) on PS2, with its fucked up character models and animations and confused art style, looks better than that. Especially in motion. Sonic Adventure 2 still hasn't shaken off that Sega arcade machine style of animation.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 04:55:36 2015 No.2348896
File: 35 KB, 600x420, crash4_3[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2347256

Even Wrath of Cortex (2001) on PS2, with its fucked up character models and animations and confused art style, looks better than that. Especially in motion. Sonic Adventure 2 still hasn't shaken off that Sega arcade machine style of animation.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 04:58:51 2015 No.2348902

>>2347228

It's because they can't play it. Those same N64 kids who bitch about loading times because they're riddled with ADHD, can't play Crash Bandicoot, which should be played like a 3D platformer with ADHD. You shouldn't like have to wait for slow moving platforms and shit, like in Mario 64 for example, but keep moving as fast as you can in a perfect string of actions.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 05:14:25 2015 No.2348909

>>2347352
>voices and cgi movies aren't things worth having.
Many, many gamers disagreed in the mid 1990s. CGI movies are what sold people on FF7, a game whose level of success would have previously been unthinkable, and ultimately defined a generation. The N64 has great games but the Playstation really was the zeitgeist of the mindset that longer games filled with cutscenes and big production values, a design paradigm that holds sway today, for better or for worse.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 05:21:53 2015 No.2348913 >>2324089 It's a really great game, but no. No it doesn't.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 08:07:22 2015 No.2349010 >>2324258 >All that Japanese bias. Fucking kill your self.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 08:23:12 2015 No.2349025 >>2333995 >>2338029

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 08:45:31 2015 No.2349053 >>2349010 Calm down. Western devs are great at genres like FPS or RTS. Japanese devs are great at action or platformers, and it shows. Crash is not really that good, but nostaliga is a strong feeling.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:04:30 2015 No.2349074

>>2349053
>Crash is not really that good,
This is what people who weren't around at the time actually believe.

Also, every great early 3D platformer was western. Crash was the first, and mindblowing at the time. Spyro was honestly the better game, but it was released a full 2 years later.

Mario 64 was visually impressive, but not fun at all to play, with camera issues that are honestly on par with Sonic Adventure. The decent platformers for N64 again came from the west, Conker and Banjo.

People who can't appreciate Crash are people who can't understand the massive gulf between 96 and 98 in terms of programming. Japan never really recovered from the blow to platformers with the jump to 3D, and it's why the genre died in the early 2000s as the new furry mascot characters were sold off and prostituted out.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:14:18 2015 No.2349083 >>2349074 >Mario 64 was visually impressive, but not fun at all to play But that's like, your minority opinion, man.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:15:22 2015 No.2349085

>>2349074
>This is what people who weren't around at the time actually believe.

You should stop assuming things.

I played Crash 2 back in the day on my PS1, and somewhat enjoyed it. But my enjoyment of it was the same kind of enjoyment I had with western platformers from Virgin in the 4th gen: they were alright, but still not as polished as japanese games in terms of controls and mechanics. It had the same kind of wonky physics and hitbox detection Virgin 2D games had.

Maybe we just have different taste though, I enjoyed Super Mario 64 and Jumping Flash, but not Crash and Banjo-Kazooie (I don't like Rare's 3D platformers, my fave Rare games on the 64 were Blast Corps and JFG).

I was like 12 when I played Crash though, maybe if I was younger my memories of it would be sweeter, but I doubt it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:16:51 2015 No.2349086 >>2324089 I never played this game is there any reason to now

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:21:56 2015 No.2349091

>>2349083
It's the opinion of anyone who didn't try the game at the time. Crash still holds up today. Mario doesn't. Funnily, I thing Super Mario Sunshine is easily in my top 3 3D platformers, possibly even number 1 depending on how I'm feeling. The N64 just wasn't powerful enough for that kind of game. Maybe it's because I played SMS first, 64 just felt like such a downgrade in every aspect.

>>2349085
Crash had issues with enemy hitboxes only due to the camera angles, the correct distance to spin could vary because you were expecting the same camera distance as before. The physics and hitboxes on anything not moving, or in the 2D sections, was as tight as it gets.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:24:19 2015 No.2349096 >>2349074 >>Crash is not really that good, >This is what people who weren't around at the time actually believe. >>2349091 >It's the opinion of anyone who didn't try the game at the time. Crash still holds up today. Mario doesn't.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:26:37 2015 No.2349102

>>2349091
>Crash still holds up today. Mario doesn't.

But again, that's your opinion.

>the correct distance to spin could vary because you were expecting the same camera distance as before.

I think the spin mechanic itself felt wonky, regardless of 3D or 2D sections. But, if you liked the game, it's alright, I just didn't liked it as much. I think Jumping Flash is a much better 3D platformer on the PS1, and the one I grew up playing the most on the PS1.
Crash wasn't bad, but to me it was just okay.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:31:22 2015 No.2349104

>>2349096
People who don't like crash today don't understand what it was competing with at the time, they compare it to later platformers, where it did really fall down, I think Crash 3 isn't very good because of the games it was actually competing against, like Spyro and Banjo.

But Crash would be more fun for a new player than Mario 64 would, as a first 3D platformer.

>>2349102
>I think the spin mechanic itself felt wonky, regardless of 3D or 2D sections
I can see where that's coming from, it could be frustrating at times.
>I think Jumping Flash is a much better 3D platformer on the PS1
Never played it, but I might give it a go, looks like fun. I feel like the camera stuff and first person is cheating a little, but then maybe Crash was cheating a bit too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:32:53 2015 No.2349106 >>2349053 >Japanese devs are great at action or platformers Because of that the best platformers on the PSONE/N64 era were made by western studios. Again fucking kill yourself.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:38:00 2015 No.2349114

>>2349091
>Crash had issues with enemy hitboxes only due to the camera angles
Actually Crash had a few polygon sorting issues particularly in the first game (due to the lack of a z buffer), Every so often Crash would be drawn behind the ledge he's jumping to. Wasn't a frequent occurrence but did happen at some of the worst moments.

I'd know this since I finished all 3 to max completion

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 09:48:39 2015 No.2349116 >>2349106 >Because of that the best platformers on the PSONE/N64 era were made by western studios. Opinion >Again fucking kill yourself. Take it easy

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 10:14:37 2015 No.2349132 >>2349104 It's a cool flow chart >old and prefers Mario 64 >nostalgia glasses >young and prefers Mario 64 >underage detected, doesn't understand context

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 10:24:12 2015 No.2349136

Crash is the Uncharted of the 90s. It's a great looking game and every game dev should read about its development history, but in terms of gameplay, all it did was take 2D platforming and translate it to a limited 3D space.

The controls are perfectly functional, but feature none of the acrobatics of Mario. The camera problem of 3D platformers is solved by making it follow a fixed curve along a narrow path. The Y axis is mostly unused. It reverts back to 2D during bonus levels. In other words, it's a safe, sensible, smart approach to game design, and just by not fucking anything up, it's better than most games. But for that same reason, it can never be a classic like Mario.

Even Bubsy 3D, its only real competition, took more risks. It completely failed, but at least it was a noble failure.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 10:30:07 2015 No.2349142 File: 19 KB, 320x240, floatingrunner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2349136 Floating Runner is a lesser known PS1 early 3D platformer that is better than Bubsy3D.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 10:37:22 2015 No.2349151

>>2349136
>The camera problem of 3D platformers is solved by making it follow a fixed curve along a narrow path
It's still pretty hard to judge the distance of jumps. Even harder than Mario 64 I say because you can at least adjust the camera to make it a little more like a 2D jump.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 10:55:23 2015 No.2349168 >>2348902 that is the most retarded defense for loading times ive ever seen so far, congratulations, good sir.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:08:09 2015 No.2349957

>>2349168

I always imagine a spoiled kid wearing soiled cargo shorts with firecrackers shoved up his ass when I hear N64 owners bitch about loading times on the PS1, especially for proper games like Crash Bandicoot, where loading times are hardly noticeable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:25:46 2015 No.2349989 >he didnt owned a ps1 back in the 90s! I don't hate the n64 it had amazing games, but you just dont know the feels you've missed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:45:32 2015 No.2350021 >>2348896 b8

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:48:29 2015 No.2350029 >>2350021 Ain't b8, m8.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:53:39 2015 No.2350037 File: 107 KB, 1023x551, 1378711119725.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2347256

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 16 19:56:55 2015 No.2350043 >>2350029 >>2350021 It's not b8, I think I've seen this anon before on AGDG.

Anonymous Thu Apr 16 23:46:27 2015 No.2350465
File: 150 KB, 720x480, 1417156220335.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2350037

Not the same guy, but it took quite a while for the PS2 to catch up to where the Dreamcast was graphically.

Having a CPU clocked 50% higher and double the RAM was one thing, but the PS2 was bottlenecked hard by only having 4MB of VRAM. The DC's GPU had 8MB, which is why so many games had such clean/crisp looking textures compared to early PS2 stuff that was super blurry by comparison.

The DC's early shitcanning means we'll never know what it was truly capable of, but a number of games (like DOA2, Code Veronica, Quake III, and Grandia II as some major examples) look and perform better on the Dreamcast compared to the PS2.

Each console has its technical marvels though. Whether Shenmue could have been done on the PS2 or Gran Turismo 4 could have been done on the Dreamcast is anyone's guess.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 11:39:20 2015 No.2351163
File: 2 KB, 135x100, sai ow.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>360 replies
My sides, OP completely did it.
Althrough i don't agree that Crash Bandicoot 1 looks better than DK64, Perfect Dark and Majora's (the only three games that were actually good looking AND did not suffer from the WORST framerate the 32/64bit era had to offer, N64's), i would rather live a life without Nintendo 64 than live a life without Crash Bandicoot 1, 2, or 3. Any of them. Just facts here, i'm not a psfag, i own both consoles.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 11:44:23 2015 No.2351169 >>2351163 >prefering Crash games over Treasure games fuck, that's some shit taste.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 11:48:28 2015 No.2351172

>>2350465

Rez is an interesting DC vs. PS2 comparison. It looks and sounds worse on the PS2, but it also runs at 60fps.

The PS2 apparently had a ridiculously high fillrate, enough that objects in Gran Turismo 4 were taken out when the tracks were "remastered" for Gran Turismo 5. But that's not /vr/.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 11:52:14 2015 No.2351179
File: 23 KB, 480x360, e papai.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2351169
Most PS1 games aren't stuck with an shitty 15FPS ratio. That's why i like crash. When i played something like Banjo-Kazooie, i felt like i was emulating the game on some kind of 90's gaming computer. Then i noticed i was playing on original hardware... Same for BFD.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 11:57:21 2015 No.2351185 >>2351179 Maybe you should stop playing shitty games like Crash or Banjo and play some Sin and Punishment instead.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:00:16 2015 No.2351189

>>2351185
I've played this game already. Its quite nice, good framerate but i felt like i was playing some kind of "Ground Star Fox 64". Which is a good thing because Star Fox 64 is a good game, but i expected to see more game like that in the N64 system aside from first party releases. It kinda looks like only Nintendo knew how to produce games to it's own console.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:15:07 2015 No.2351216

>>2351189

Not all PS1 games were made by naughty dog either. There was a huge load of shit on the PS1, but people ever only remember the games that looked good on it, like this guy said: >>2347538

Also, S&P was publsihed by Nintendo, but it was developed by Treasure.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:15:13 2015 No.2351217

And if you guys need another example, just play Ace Combat 2, for the Playstation. Godlike framerate, great field of view and textures. Not to mention all those explosions, and the framerate was still intact. This applies for Metal Gear Solid and Need for Speed, too! Now just take a look at Aerofighters Assault, Shadows of the Empire, Goldeneye and Mission: Impossible. Nice games, aren't they? But that comes with a price: Piss poor slowdowns and framerate drops! I don't know if that's something with me or if it happens to anyone else: But those things give me nausea. If only Nintendo created Nintendo 32 instead of Nintendo 64... Giving up the graphics, but introducing edgy gameplay speeds like the Playstation did... Maybe they could even use discs instead of carts, raising the console price, but decreasing the games prices! Wouldn't that be so cool?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:16:36 2015 No.2351218 >>2351216 It happens that Nintendo's pile of shit was far bigger than Playstation's pile of shit. Even with fewer games, they managed to do it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:17:52 2015 No.2351220 >>2351218 Not really, PS1's amount of shovelware is mesmerizing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:21:06 2015 No.2351227 >>2351220 70% Nintendo 64 games worth playing were produced by Nintendo. Playstation had a lot more to offer.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:41:42 2015 No.2351251
File: 81 KB, 640x480, goemon-screenshot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2351227

Yeah, Sony's 1st party wasn't remotely as strong as Nintendo's, but to say PS1 games in general looked better than N64 is an outright lie.

I'll remit to this guy again:
>>2347538

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 12:57:34 2015 No.2351270

>>2350465
Apparently Sega never released proper specs for the DC gpu, they just had very good graphic tools that everyone used. Maybe custom tools may have been able to get better graphics, but the pipeline was entirely fixed function, so it would have been problematic to do things the gpu could not do.

PS2 had lots of jaggies because the hardware antialiasing was broken due to a design fault. It didn't get higher resolution titles until they noticed that the machine has crazy amount of bandwidth, big enough that they can texture directly from system memory (leaving vram entirely as a framebuffer + cache), and that they can essentially brute force advanced effects by doing multiple passes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 13:02:39 2015 No.2351274 >>2351217 >Metal Gear Solid >godlike framerate not so fast my friend

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 13:04:53 2015 No.2351279 >>2351270 I think the naomi arcade systems do a good job of showing off what the dreamcast hardware could do.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 13:06:14 2015 No.2351283 >>2351251 That image was captured from an emulator. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the 64, but it should be judged fairly, Vaseline-O-Vision included.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 13:09:38 2015 No.2351286 >>2351283 Except for the resolution, emulators tend to make N64 look worse actually. The textures are never filtered, blended or tiled properly.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 13:13:51 2015 No.2351292 >>2333012 >Sad, really. sad and true because I was a Playstation rpg faggot in the 90s, in the worst way Quest 64 and Ogre Battle were the only games I wanted to play on the n64

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 14:39:09 2015 No.2351371

>>2350465
>Each console has its technical marvels though. Whether Shenmue could have been done on the PS2 or Gran Turismo 4 could have been done on the Dreamcast is anyone's guess.

Never in a million years could the best of each platform have been done on the other. PS2 could transform & draw loads of geometry (e.g. foliage in MGS3), but was awful at texturing. Scroll down to "Textures Per Frame":
http://www.segatech.com/technical/consolecompare/

The rich, vibrant, varied texture work of the Shenmue games, JSR etc could not be done on PS2.

>>2351286
>Except for the resolution, emulators tend to make N64 look worse actually
I don't know that you can except resolution- most N64 games look massively better at the original resolution, because their visuals aren't robust against even greater magnification. Not peculiar to N64 but a particularly strong effect on it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 17 14:47:14 2015 No.2351379 >>2351371 Speaking of texturing on the PS2, I seem to remember for FFXII they sacrificed polygon detail for more varied textures compared to FFX.

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 15:08:38 2015 No.2351402

>>2351371
>but was awful at texturing. Scroll down to "Textures Per Frame":

Bullshit article.

The EE in the PS2 may be slow a texturing, but you are not meant to be using it for that purpose. You were meant to use the two vector units, which the article conveniently ignores. And the two vector units are way faster than the Dreamcast.

VRAM amount becomes less of an issue as well since the vector units had insane memory bandwidth to both system and video memory. The machine could texture from system memory faster than the DC could from video memory.

There is nothing the DC could do that the PS2 can't do better - and I'm saying that as a huge Sega fan. Only reason the PS2 had so many titles with shit graphics was because the system was difficult to program.

Naomi 2 would be a better match for the PS2 (way more memory, an extra PVR2, and a dedicated T&L unit).

Anonymous Fri Apr 17 15:14:47 2015 No.2351406

>>2351402
>The EE in the PS2 may be slow a texturing, but you are not meant to be using it for that purpose. You were meant to use the two vector units, which the article conveniently ignores. A
This is just a technicality, since I think you are referring to the MIPS core in EE, but the vector units are actually inside EE.

Anonymous Sat Apr 18 21:41:13 2015 No.2353797

>The EE in the PS2 may be slow a texturing, but you are not meant to be using it for that purpose. You were meant to use the two vector units, which the article conveniently ignores. And the two vector units are way faster than the Dreamcast.
Sounds like bullshit. One, I can't find any confirmation on it. Two, perspective-correct texture mapping would bottleneck on the limited division ability of the vector units. Three, how in hell are you going to pipeline rasterized images from the vector units to the GPU for all your geometry?

>Only reason the PS2 had so many titles with shit graphics was because the system was difficult to program.
But I'm comparing best to best. Even a masterpiece like Shadow of the Colossus has many hallmarks of N64-style texturing: lots of repetition and heavy use of vertex colors with limited-channel textures. I have seen no PS2 game draw as many unique textures in a frame as Shenmue or Jet Set Radio.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 18 23:07:49 2015 No.2353869 >>2327947 Draw distance on the PS1 version was shit, that's why you had that little map, without it it became unplayable

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 18 23:30:23 2015 No.2353890 >>2346941 Because we already know it, and it has been referenced since the start of the thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 18 23:49:49 2015 No.2353919 >>2327086 Hows that possible, the 3D looked amazing on the PS1... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3uJ6DKjFZM

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 00:26:22 2015 No.2353989

>>2351286
>Except for the resolution, emulators tend to make N64 look worse actually. The textures are never filtered, blended or tiled properly.
That's because most N64 emulators have traditionally had bullshit tiling and blending. For what it's worth, GLideN64 supports N64-style 3-point bilinear.

Also mipmapping. See, a lot of N64 games have mipmapped textures. Until GLideN64, no HLE plugin handled the texture mipmaps properly. Now accurate handling does make textures blur as they fade into the distance. This is used for certain for certain visual tricks, but the effect is not going to necessarily be popular.

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 01:23:43 2015 No.2354057

>>2353797
Apologies, I mistook a few things. You are not supposed to texture with the VU1, you use that for vertex transforms, and you draw things with the GS. Now, the GS has absurd amount of fillrate, and it is programmable, so you could do an enormous amount of effects on it.

It had low VRAM, and most of that was used up for the framebuffer. Actually if you did back buffers you used up nearly all the VRAM for that.

But, they had an extreme amount of bandwidth from EE and VU1 to the GS/VRAM. So while the GS was doing the rasterization, it did not store too many textures, probably only a fraction of what was on the screen. Because of the huge bandwidth, they could stream textures on-the-fly as the GS was drawing them.
The trick was getting it all running in parallel, and avoiding GS stalls that happen on large texture uploads, which meant breaking up textures into lots of smaller ones and uploading them like that. Really, all of the PS2 was about running things in parallel.

So the amount of unique textures you can fit in the PS2 is not limited to the VRAM, but to how well you balance uploading textures + drawing them with the GS.

>But I'm comparing best to best. Even a masterpiece like Shadow of the Colossus

Shadow of Colossus used its own distinct art style from what I recall, that didn't really benefit from many textures.

>I have seen no PS2 game draw as many unique textures in a frame as Shenmue or Jet Set Radio.

I'm sure there were a bunch of them. Remember, the PS2 kept getting new games for much longer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 01:53:22 2015 No.2354092 >>2353989 Mipmapping was pretty damn important on the system. You couldn't do trilinear filtering without it, so that could have had an adverse affect in places.

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 02:10:03 2015 No.2354107
File: 462 KB, 2048x768, GLideN64_Perfect_Dark_000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2354092
>Mipmapping was pretty damn important on the system. You couldn't do trilinear filtering without it, so that could have had an adverse affect in places.
Proper mipmapping emulation is going to piss some people off. (It can be disabled, though - however, to be frank, some games really should have it forced on, like Conker.) Pic related.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 04:58:57 2015 No.2354264 >>2330204 >not posting this track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI2SJXA1wYk

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 07:13:13 2015 No.2354339
File: 616 KB, 244x156, 1385052916667.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2354264

I said comparable.

That one is set in a completely different environment, and has a completely different feel that isn't present in any Banjo Kazooie track.

But yes, that is one of the best tracks in the entire franchise. Never has a sewer brought so many feels. It's just fantastic when the marimba kicks in.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:47:00 2015 No.2354393 >>2349091 >Crash still holds up today. Mario doesn't. Funnily, I thing Super Mario Sunshine is easily in my top 3 3D platformers Confirmed for shit taste.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:49:20 2015 No.2354396 >>2349116 Then name better Japanese platformers from the PSONE/N64 era.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:52:25 2015 No.2354398 >>2347538 >>The N64 will always be graphically judged by its ugliest games. Its not like it has a lot of choices

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:52:41 2015 No.2354402 >>2328056 That's not a flaw unless you're trying to play a modern game with an N64 controller because it NEVER comes up otherwise. They didn't design impossible control schemes because they're not retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:54:07 2015 No.2354403 >>2354393 Only the Sunshine part.

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:57:59 2015 No.2354407

>>2354402

And the reason for that is N64 were made to work with that weird ass controller, which did limit the freedom of developers.

For example, I'm sure Rare would have loved to be able to use the L and R buttons to strafe in Goldeneye, like a lot of PS1 games do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 08:59:29 2015 No.2354408 >>2354407 That could easily be said to be the fault of the controller for not having two shoulder buttons and two Z buttons. What's your point?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:02:43 2015 No.2354409 >>2354408 My point was that developers had to do workarounds for the unconventional controller, which seems so pointless, because they could have just had a controller that worked for anything, like the DualShock.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:04:23 2015 No.2354410 >>2354409 The Dualshock didn't come out until two years after the original PSX controller. And the original controller was GOAT in the comfy rating anyway. Fuck those cancerous and terribly placed analog sticks.

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:17:15 2015 No.2354420

Crash engine had tons of limitations. Quoting from the developers blog

>As long as you could never SEE more than a set number of polygons (800 for Crash 1, 1300 for Crash 2 or 3) from any given position we could have perfect occlusion and sort, with no runtime cost.
If you went over-polygon budget the Crash engine would crash. They could only keep a tight reign on polygon count by having linear levels.
>It is easy to underestimate the value of the pre-occlusion and vertex animation hacks. But let me tell you, this was everything. The occlusion meant more polygons in the background, and more polygons meant we could do the levels. Without it we NEVER could have made the world look as good as it did.
Crash engine essentially cheated by pre-calculating visibility because its a linear game with the same routes every time. Free roaming games have too many possible camera positions to pre-calculate visibility.
>Crash was 512 polygons in the first game, with textures only for his spots and his shoelaces
Crash model only had two textures. Everything else was just primitive gouraud shading
>ard or backward in a level entailed loading in new data, a CD “hit.” Andy proudly stated that indeed it did. Kelly asked how many of these CD hits Andy thought a gamer that finished Crash would have. Andy did some thinking and off the top of his head said “Roughly 120,000.” Kelly became very silent for a moment and then quietly mumbled “the PlayStation CD drive is ‘rated’ for 70,000.”
The game engine essentially ruins your PS1 CD-ROM drive because it hits it too hard streaming pre-calculated visibility cheat data all the time
>We couldn’t have too many enemies on screen at the same time. Even though the skunks or turtles were only 50-100 polygons each, we could show two or three at most. The rest was spent on Crash and the Background.
Crash engine can only handle three enemies visible at a time at most.

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:23:21 2015 No.2354429

>>2354410

I agree, the original PS1 controller was comfy.

But the thing is, the N64 was made for 3D games, and for genres like FPS games in particular, you need to be able to move, look around and strafe at the same time, and neither the N64 controller nor the original PS1 controller was not cut out for that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:24:02 2015 No.2354431 >>2354429 There's one good FPS on the N64. One.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:30:56 2015 No.2354436 >>2354420 It's amazing how devs used every single tool to push the limits of the hardware they were working on, nowadays everyone's lazy and everything looks the same.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 09:31:31 2015 No.2354437 >>2354431 Goldeneye Perfect Dark Turok Turok 2 Turok 3 TWINE ???

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 10:00:33 2015 No.2354457 >>2354437 I actually liked Duke64

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 10:01:00 2015 No.2354458 >>2354264 > Or THIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khC_TU6ogsY

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 14:16:45 2015 No.2354774 >>2324214 Oh Nintendo. Designing for those three armed children~

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 14:38:23 2015 No.2354798 >>2354774 I always thought that you were just supposed to use the 3d stick while holding the pad from the sides, and the whole middle part was just there to make the controller look more original. Then again, I do have hands like a pianist.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 14:46:43 2015 No.2354810 >>2354437 He's clearly referring to Doom 3.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 15:19:27 2015 No.2354856 File: 166 KB, 550x733, adamaabe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtE2oTuvtU

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 15:40:35 2015 No.2354878

>>2354057
Truth. The Dreamcast had a vast 16 MB of VRAM making it very, very easy to have large a number of textures on screen at once.

The PS2 had 4 MB of VRAM. But it was blindingly fast. So fast, you could stream textures through it several times and still be keeping 60 fps. Developers were used to loading all the textures for a single scene into VRAM and working from that. Carefully managing your texture pipeline was super difficult to do and required god-like programming skills to achieve early on -- Jak & Daxter, for example.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:06:07 2015 No.2354913 File: 101 KB, 1024x768, 1092692-psd3d023.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Wipeout 3 was another heavily optimized PS1 game that looked better than anything on N64.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:08:34 2015 No.2354920 >>2354913 What was the framerate like?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:11:05 2015 No.2354925 >>2354913 You're right, that looks much better than Conker.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:14:30 2015 No.2354931 >>2354920 60fps and at a 480 res, one of the first PS1 games to run at that. >>2354925 It looks much better in motion and on the actual hardware, this is an emulator shot. I'm not saying Conker looked awful though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:16:01 2015 No.2354934 >>2354931 That's very impressive.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:28:47 2015 No.2354951 >>2354913 >>2354931 Was the actual framebuffer resolution 480 lines? I find that dubious given all the textures on the screen. The only source I found online mentions 512x240 native resolution for the game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 16:55:05 2015 No.2354974 >>2324750 I loaded up my copy yesterday. I can't believe I was so excited about that micro version of USA as a kid. It's so small and there's hardly anything in it...

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 17:28:33 2015 No.2355034 >>2332950 >opinions

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 17:32:26 2015 No.2355043 >>2354913 >emulator pic

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 19 18:04:09 2015 No.2355128 >>2354396 Mystical Ninja starring Goemon

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 18:12:14 2015 No.2355158 [DELETED]

>>2354107
>So the amount of unique textures you can fit in the PS2 is not limited to the VRAM, but to how well you balance uploading textures + drawing them with the GS.
Never said it was. No matter what you do, it's hard-limited by the bus and the GPU's (in)ability to use compressed textures, just as the article says.

Dreamcast wasn't just simpler at texturing- it was superior. More unique textures could be used per-frame. Still not a 100% direct comparison as texture compression causes quality loss, but I've never witnessed a compression artefact on DC. Plus, lossy texture compression was often used on PS2 as well, to fit more textures in main memory, decompressed just before being sent to the GPU.

>Shadow of Colossus used its own distinct art style from what I recall, that didn't really benefit from many textures.
You usually can't divorce the art styles that worked well on a console from that console's capabilities.

>I'm sure there were a bunch of them
Then it should be easy to cite an example.

>>2354107
Does that look so shitty just because the mip bias is identical to the N64 one, at a much greater resolution?

Anonymous Sun Apr 19 18:15:35 2015 No.2355165

>>2354057
>So the amount of unique textures you can fit in the PS2 is not limited to the VRAM, but to how well you balance uploading textures + drawing them with the GS.
Never said it was. No matter what you do, it's hard-limited by the bus and the GPU's (in)ability to use compressed textures, just as the article says.

Dreamcast wasn't just simpler at texturing- it was superior. More unique textures could be used per-frame. Still not a 100% direct comparison as texture compression causes quality loss, but I've never witnessed a compression artefact on DC. Plus, lossy texture compression was often used on PS2 as well, to fit more textures in main memory, decompressed just before being sent to the GPU.

>Shadow of Colossus used its own distinct art style from what I recall, that didn't really benefit from many textures.
You usually can't divorce the art styles that worked well on a console from that console's capabilities.

>I'm sure there were a bunch of them
Then it should be easy to cite an example.

>>2354107
Does that look so shitty just because the mip bias is identical to the N64 one, at a much greater resolution?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 01:06:08 2015 No.2357719 File: 1.96 MB, 3624x2488, uiasrl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2324089 mfw no one posted this yet http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/video-games/making-crash/

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 18:16:23 2015 No.2358836 >>2357719 What does it matter when hardly any of us understand shit about it?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 18:25:40 2015 No.2358854 >>2358836 You underestimate this place.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 18:26:56 2015 No.2358859 >>2355165 >Does that look so shitty just because the mip bias is identical to the N64 one, at a much greater resolution? I suspect GLideN64's mipmapping is broken somehow. Angrylion's pixel accurate plugin doesn't have such aggressive texture LOD.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 21 18:59:46 2015 No.2358907 >>2354913 If it plays like WipeoutHD on PS3, then I'm staying F-Zero X/GX.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 23 15:43:38 2015 No.2362290 bump

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 23 19:13:10 2015 No.2362703 >>2354913 Wipeout 3 looks pretty nice, but I'd say Perfect Dark on the N64 looks better. Play it in Mednafen or on a real console, and you'll see what I mean. Upscaled PSX emulator graphics =/= native PSX graphics.

Anonymous Thu Apr 23 19:23:26 2015 No.2362721

>>2347448
That's exactly what I was saying; the N64 had a retardedly flawed architecture, and Nintendo treated 3rd party developers like shit. Had they addressed the texture cache and memory issues during R&D, or at least allowed developers access to better documentation and development tools, the N64 would have been much more competitive.

Now, the N64 wasn't a failure, not even close, but it did pretty much set Nintendo up for future mediocrity. Odds are, Nintendo would still be the industry leader right now if it had handled the n64 better.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 23 20:34:07 2015 No.2362829 >>2335570 ZeldaOnPS1.jpg

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 23 23:10:35 2015 No.2363126 >>2362721 >Had they addressed the texture cache and memory issues during R&D They knew exactly what they were doing to save money.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 24 23:34:26 2015 No.2365289 >>2324089

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 24 23:36:18 2015 No.2365291 File: 89 KB, 640x640, 10409261_892781124106209_6187437175256472437_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This looks better than every single video game game

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 24 23:36:23 2015 No.2365292 why was it that all ps1 games without pre-rendered backgrounds looked like the fucking walls were melting?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 24 23:37:58 2015 No.2365293 >>2365292 Affine texture mapping. Read the thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 00:04:37 2015 No.2365326 >>2365291 A 14 year-old's body?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 06:24:59 2015 No.2365708 >>2365292 The playstation's texture mapping and gouraud shading don't take the z coordinates into account at all. In fact, the GPU doesn't even receive z coordinates in the first place, so the rasterizer doesn't see them either.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:12:34 2015 No.2366519 >>2365708 That's why it melts in crash bandicooter?

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:29:16 2015 No.2366540

From an adult perspective the N64 library doesn't really hold up against that of the PS1. I'd rather kill myself than to go back and play collectathons again.

I agree though that from a children's perspective the N64 is probably better, I had a N64 as a kid and I don't think I would've enjoyed the PS1 as much due to lack of english skills and the fact that most games were harder.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 17:29:26 2015 No.2366541 File: 959 KB, 1024x1024, n64 vs ps1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >no one posted this yet

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:11:51 2015 No.2366608 >>2349142 Looking at some gameplay, that game looks pretty fun. I like how fast-paced it seems.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 18:40:27 2015 No.2366631 >>2366541 PS1 is missing the holes in geometry.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 25 19:02:25 2015 No.2366665 >>2324089 saturn is still my favorite system though

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:10:35 2015 No.2366772

>>2366540
I agree- the N64 was way more fun as a kid. It really is a kiddie console. Even the physical appearance of the machine & its controller is contrived to appeal to children. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, since fundamentally video games are just toys for children. It was with the PSX that pretense otherwise started setting in.

Still, it makes N64 fans mega insecure, and they'll always rattle off the violent games on the machine (conflating gore with maturity) when it's brought up.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:14:24 2015 No.2366782

>>2366772

I'm one of the few (i guess) kucky kids who was an idort back in the day. (saturn included).

PS1 had also a lot of kiddy games, in fact, when you see how much nostalgia games like Crash and Spyro get (which were meh games to me, even as a kid) you can tell people actually enjoyed the PS1 also as kids.

In my experience, my older brother and his friends enjoyed the N64 better than the PS1 or the Saturn due to 4-players racing games and wrestling games. While I used the PS1 mostly for single player RPGs.

So, it entirely depends on each person.

I don't really mind "Kiddy" games though, some of my favorite games of all time, like Goemon, Fantasy Zone or Space Harrier, are "kiddy", or colorful as fuck.

Anonymous Sat Apr 25 20:46:42 2015 No.2366838

>>2366782
You're right that the PSX had no lack of child appeal. It's not that children weren't targeted, but that they were only part of the target audience. It's key to the PSX's success, I think. All the way to the end of the PS2's lifecycle, Sony produced the premier normalfag/adult machine.

Great point on multiplayer. Come to think of it, I can't remember ever playing anything multiplayer on PSX, only taking turns on single-player games.

>I don't really mind "Kiddy" games though, some of my favorite games of all time, like Goemon, Fantasy Zone or Space Harrier, are "kiddy", or colorful as fuck.
Yes, I prefer bright & vibrant visual styles almost across the board. They're all I use in my own work. The conflation of dreary, grimy visuals with maturity is one awful old trend in games.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:32:59 2015 No.2367330 >>2351379 If I remember right, polycounts between characters were cut in half for XII compared to X, but the characters still looked better due to increased texture quality. It's easy to see when you look at the character's faces.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:36:53 2015 No.2367334

>>2324089
I grew up with N64 but I really learned to appreciate the sharp crisp jaggedness of the PS1

Your argument has merit in certain applications but Crash isn't as open as say some N64 games were. It's more focused and has less to render. Performance is great because of that fixed camera.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:38:33 2015 No.2367335 >>2366772 >Even the physical appearance of the machine I don't think that. The base N64 has a bit of a performance car hood look to it. It's those transparent fruity color ones that look kiddy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:39:51 2015 No.2367337 File: 277 KB, 1400x600, 1416459710948.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2367334 I couldn't stand the blurriness inherent in N64 games.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:41:22 2015 No.2367339 >>2367337 >comparing emulator shots not this shit again

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 01:44:34 2015 No.2367340 >>2367337 The PSX's output isn't perfectly sharp either from its dithering.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:20:37 2015 No.2367536

This might be due to growing up as a PC player, but I always found console 3D platfotmers incredibly clumsy and unappealing to play. Even during the PS2 era, a lot of the time cameras and perspectives cause me to die and it's very frustrating.

Crash is one of the games that pulls it off since it's based around a fixed camera. Is this really a flaw to some people? Man, you console dudes often feel like aliens to me, some even love the PS1-style d-pad (shudder).

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:22:39 2015 No.2367537 >>2367536 It's the matter of exploration. If I wanted a fixed camera then I'd play a 2D game. 3D hallway platformers like Crash are a waste of disk space IMO.

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:28:01 2015 No.2367543

>>2367536
>Crash is one of the games that pulls it off since it's based around a fixed camera
That's worse. It's extremely hard to judge distance. Every jump is blind. The only saving grace is its generosity with checkpoints and lives.

In Mario 64 if there's a hard jump, I can rotate the camera into a 2D style view to make things easier. No such possibly in Crash.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:29:49 2015 No.2367547 >>2367536 >(shudder) Playstation d-pad is dogshit though, you're right about that. Haven't played every system of course, but I'm hardpressed to think of a worse d-pad beyond that of the gamecube.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:39:03 2015 No.2367558 File: 2.67 MB, 640x480, Turok2 60fps.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2336008 >>2336015 look at the HUD, specifically the text font top is PC, bottom is something else

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:40:53 2015 No.2367559

>>2367543
Well then that's where we disagree. After getting used to PC third-person games, I always found it very hard to control console games because of their weird varied angles, requiring you to shift how you control the character. As a kid, I wondered why all such platformers weren't behind-the-back since I find that vastly more playable, and I still tend to prefer it.
I guess I can see where you're coming from, though. It's different design philosophies.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 05:49:28 2015 No.2367564 >>2367547 >I'm hardpressed to think of a worse d-pad beyond that of the gamecube. Is the 360 controller really so obscure?

Anonymous Sun Apr 26 06:12:44 2015 No.2367586

>>2324089
It's still an abortion of a series. They seriously tried to make a mascot after the SECOND biggest one of the time? And all the fucking did was take one small animal and replace it with another? Seriously?

>heh heh it's a bandicoot that crashes into things let's name him Crash so clever

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 06:14:19 2015 No.2367591 >>2354798 le spoiler It was designed so you as a child could hold it from the middle and your dad could hold it from the sides. /le spoiler

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 09:29:39 2015 No.2367763 looks like crash 2

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 09:34:17 2015 No.2367770 >>2367564 No, it's just not that bad as what everyone claims.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 09:36:09 2015 No.2367774 >>2324231 this is the best one 2 3 CTR 1

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 09:37:28 2015 No.2367778 >>2367586 Why are you so mad?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 14:59:24 2015 No.2368227 >>2327849 >the fixed camera would significantly reduce the ugly affine texture mapping of PS1 games More importantly, it allowed them to do what amounts to precomputing and streaming Z-buffer values.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 26 22:22:55 2015 No.2369142 >>2339506 Crash Nitro Kart

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:10:06 2015 No.2369729 [DELETED]

File: 295 KB, 2879x3157, Crash handsome face.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2354264

Didn't Banjo Kazooie have sewer music too, which had a bunch of farts and burps in it? I can't find it, and I haven't heard it, but you gotta ask what's harder; Making the filthy sewer exactly what they are with matching filthy music, or making it a vibrant and even slightly comfy with catchy and exotic marimbas? That's entirely up to people's personal preferences, but I highly prefer the latter.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:22:28 2015 No.2369736
File: 295 KB, 2879x3157, Crash handsome face.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2354264

Didn't Banjo Kazooie have sewer music too, which had a bunch of farts and burps in it? I can't find it, and I haven't heard it, but you gotta ask what's harder; Making the filthy sewer exactly it is with matching filthy music, or making it a vibrant and even slightly comfy with catchy and exotic marimbas? That's entirely up to people's personal preferences, but I highly prefer the latter.

Anonymous Mon Apr 27 06:23:14 2015 No.2369737

>>2369729
It's actually just a variant of Mad Monster Mansion music when you enter the toilet, not a level theme in itself (remembering that Banjo Kazooie has dynamic music which swaps instruments in and out of the track depending what you are doing).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCZC2FY_rzA

The actual sewer level music is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6CTvfvhyCk

On the other hand, Conker actually did have a proper level theme which was made out of disgusting noises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yxV9QcWEH4

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:04:37 2015 No.2369783 >>2327930 Super NES Controller wasn't comfortable? Come on now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 07:33:08 2015 No.2369809 >>2369736 I think you're thinking of Conker's Bad fur Day. The sloprano's chapter has music with farts in it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 27 11:21:01 2015 No.2370012 I hope OP was trying to parody that NeoGAF thread where they thought Crash Bandicoot was proof that the PS1 had some kind of secret sauce inside of it that made it higher spec than the N64.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 28 09:36:25 2015 No.2371814 >>2365292 Smelter?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 28 10:28:16 2015 No.2371861 >>2327930 >>2327953 Aliens detected.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 28 10:59:07 2015 No.2371896 >>2324110 >aimed for autistic and retards Bro pls, did you even read the cover of the game you posted?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 28 16:01:13 2015 No.2372261 I'm gonna stream some Crash Bandicoot 2 later. Is anybody interested?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 28 16:37:01 2015 No.2372306 >>2324839 >pre-rendered bullshit

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/vr/ - Retro Games