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/vr/ - Retro Games

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2317127 No.2317127[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Was it bad design?

>> No.2317130

Yes. Still one of the greatest games ever made though.

>> No.2317139

I particularly don't mind that one barrel. I figured that out when I was 9.
But Carnival Night still has awful level design: springs everywhere, these annoying bumping balls, bump bump bump everywhere. The barrels that are actually annoying are the ones that go up and down in narrow spaces and will crush you if you're not careful (and it's common since a lot of times you're going fast and out of the blue you find yourself caught). These hovering floors. Spikes everywhere.

It's a really annoying level in general. People complain about springs on Sonic CD, honestly this level is worse than anything on CD.

It's also supposed to be the "pinball-like" level of the game (ala Spring Yard/Casino Night) but it doesn't even have pinball flippers, it's just an annoying bumping hell with an underwater section.

>> No.2317150

It is indeed bad design, and no argument is more annoying than the people who got it right away.

"I JUST PRESSED UP AND DOWN AS SOON AS I SAW IT WASN'T WORKING."

Okay chuckles. I tried that too. The response is not immediate. You have to wait for it to come to a dead stop after you jump on it to see the effects of pressing up or down.

>> No.2317151

>>2317139
Still better than Marble Garden.

>> No.2317153

>>2317127
Yes.
Your brain, that is.

How did you not press up/down intentionally?
Did you never check for secret areas by looking up or down?
What the fuck

>> No.2317154

>>2317151

I still prefer Marble Garden. At least it doesn't have springs and bumping walls/floor/ceilings everywhere, and is less of a clusterfuck.
Anyway both Marble Garden and Carnival are the worst part of S3.

>> No.2317156
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2317156

>>2317153
Hey fuckweasel! NOT TODAY!

>>2317150
>Okay chuckles. I tried that too. The response is not immediate. You have to wait for it to come to a dead stop after you jump on it to see the effects of pressing up or down.

>> No.2317267

>>2317154
Both levels are a clusterfuck of shitty design, but Marble Garden has a bunch of parts that force you to use the stupid fucking tops, in addition to spikes everywhere. I'll take the barrels and the shitload of springs and bumpers over having to dick around with those tops.

At least I can dodge the bumpers and springs when I approach Carnival Night with a bit of caution, but Marble Garden's annoying vertical design and those fucking tops make it a huge slog even when I'm not playing like a retard.

>> No.2317282

>>2317127
but the music was amazing.

>> No.2317360

>>2317267
I'm replaying S3&K and it's really not the great game I remember it being - the level design as a whole is kind of a mess. I can't find any way to explain what I mean, but it just doesn't seem as polished as Super Mario World.

>> No.2317365

>>2317360
>but it just doesn't seem as polished as Super Mario World.

SMW is my favorite vidya ever, but it's really dumb to compare it to Sonic. Plus you're just calling for mindless Sega vs Nintendo console war, and there's always that one faggot who wants to argue about SMB3 vs SMW.

Sonic 2 & K has some faulty level design (Marble Garden, Carnival, Sandopolis act 2) but overall it's pretty stellar.

>> No.2317383

>>2317360
>>2317365
It's a fairly good game with some really high points (stages like Hydrocity and Ice Cap, for example), but it's got a lot of really low points too, and those low points are bad enough that there's just a general consensus that those stages are poorly-designed - our arguments only being over which ones we hate more.

>> No.2317474

>>2317365
I wasn't trying to start a console war, I was just using SMW as an example of another game from that era of a similar genre. Both S3&K and SMW have been called some of the greatest platformers from that time period, so it seemed fair to use it as an example. Sorry about that, I wasn't trying to shitpost.

>> No.2317491

>>2317139
>>2317151
If you look at the bigger picture you'll notice both s3 and S&K have pretty shitty level design (slow, padded, gimmicky, leaving very little to skill), which is a major reason a lot of people prefer 2 instead.

>> No.2317508

>>2317127
it is definitely bad design
I posted about this in a different thread, but the fact that the barrel moves when you jump obscures the intended method of moving it completely.

>>2317360
SMW's stages are also significantly smaller and are designed around far simpler physics. It's a fair bit easier for it to be consistently on point.

>>2317491
Other than the big 3 "who let this shit happen" stages (Sandopolis, Marble Garden, and Casino Night), what's wrong with S3&K's stages?
None of the rest of the stages are particularly slow, gimmicky, or leave little to skill. Really, those were the only really low points. Lava Reef is still 10/10. Hydrocity is a 9/10. Icecap is still 10/10. Flying Battery is an 8/10. The rest are 7/10.

>> No.2317525

>>2317127
yes

but yes the marble garden tops are bad too

and whoever says ice cap zone is a great level is fucking stupid and only has nostalgia goggles for it because of the snowboard part

>> No.2317529

>>2317508
I'm not the person you replied to, but I've been replaying the game and I'm just not a fan of the level design in general. Hydrocity, for example, just feels like one long horizontal stretch with different paths that all lead in the same direction. The environment looks so samey that it left me wondering if I was retracing my steps, even though I knew I wasn't. Overall, the levels go on way too long, they are monotonous to look at, and there are bumpers and shit that impede your progress and have nothing to do with skillful movement.

>> No.2317564

>>2317127
I remember when I got stuck there it took me forever to get frustrated enough for me to push up and down when jumping. Eventually by doing that I figured it out. But at the time I got this and was stuck, S&K came out and I moved on. I loved playing Knuckles and got the Super Emeralds with him first.

>> No.2317565

>>2317491
The level design was all over the place, but it wasn't universally shitty. I'd still rate the game 7/10, but that's because most stages are either 3/10 or 10/10.

>>2317508
>rating Hydrocity lower than Lava Reef.
You and I must duel.
I jest - they're both good stages. Personally, I'd rate a few of the remaining stages lower than 7/10, but that's just me being picky.

>>2317525
The snowboard part was kinda boring. The rest of the stage is 10/10. What don't you like about it?

>>2317529
Those are all complaints that - if you think them of S3&K - apply even moreso to the previous sonic games, with the exception of level length in 2 (1's levels were shorter, but you went through them more slowly). Now, personally I would disagree with a lot of what you said - there are a LOT of ways to go through Hydrocity, especially if you have Tails or Knuckles - and I never felt any of the levels were monotonous at all. Even the shittier levels manage to look different as you go through them.

>> No.2317582

>>2317127
>Was it bad design?

Only if you try to apply modern game design principles on something created in the early 90s.

>>2317508
>Lava Reef is still 10/10

Lavar Reef is too piss easy for a level so late in the game. It throws you shields left and right, and once you pick one up you are damn near invincible.

>>2317565
Icecap had a few parts where it isn't clear where you are supposed to go, like those chained platforms you have to spindash on, so the push moves them upwards. They should've at least put springs next to all of them to make it simpler (yes, I know you have to spin dash).

When I put the game in for a bunch of kids, none of them could figure out wtf to do there, but they had no problem with any of the Mario games other than the difficulty being too high for them. Everyone was also super confused because they didn't knew when you are supposed to go left, and when you are supposed to go right. No one could figure out the spin dash barrels in Marble Garden either. Sonic 3 is just a clusterfuck level design wise, it is built specifically for players who know how to play the game, not beginners.

Sonic 2 is better in that regard, and the levels are much more compact as well.