Where do you stand on Sonic 3 (& Knuckles)? A lot of people consider it to be the pinnacle of the Sonic series, but quite a few people think it inferior to the first two games, considering its different focus and change in style. What do you think?

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Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:35:33 2015 No.2306795 [Reply] [Original]

Where do you stand on Sonic 3 (& Knuckles)?

A lot of people consider it to be the pinnacle of the Sonic series, but quite a few people think it inferior to the first two games, considering its different focus and change in style. What do you think?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:45:12 2015 No.2306818 >>2306795 It's been discussed here to an extent that it's fair to say they're the most polarizing of the first 4. Personally, I find them slow-paced, gimmicky chores.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:46:18 2015 No.2306820 >>2306818 Great OSTs tho.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 19:55:15 2015 No.2306842

Level design is somewhat simplified, you can see them moving to the 'automatic running stage' design. Sonic's physics seem off, like he has a lot of starting weight and once he begins moving he becomes weightless and floaty. & Knuckles stages are all garbage with weird gimmicks save for Flying Battery.

Presentation wise it's stellar, especially the transitional vignettes between stages, and there are some concepts that really work well but overall it's not sure what it wants to be.

Sonic CD took the vignettes of 3 that gave the game more character and combined it with some stronger level design, but Sonic 2 is stronger overall. There's no definitive Sonic 2D game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:05:48 2015 No.2306876 >>2306842 You took the words right out of my mouth. My personal favourite is Sonic 2 but that is purely because it is the first one I played.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:06:28 2015 No.2306881

ok here I go with my autist rant

My favorite has always been Sonic 2, and as a kid I had to play Sonic 3 and S&K separately because I had bootleg carts so no lock-on.
I got Sonic Jam for the Sega Saturn some years ago so I got to finally play the complete S3&K and yeah, it's an amazing game. I never got all emeralds on Sonic & Knuckles as a kid, the doomsday zone would have exploded my mind. S3&K as one game truly is the definitive Sonic masterpiece... but as a kid, I experienced them on their original separate forms, and neither could top Sonic 2 to me.

The changes I didn't like on Sonic 3 (and therefore in Knuckles) is that they changed the art style drastically. No more psychedelic, dreamy color paletters, now everything seems more realistic, more brown. I still think the art style is good and up to Sonic Team standards, but I preferred the more trippy Sonic 1 and 2 atmosphere.
Music was also a bit disappointing. I don't dislike the music on 3&K, in fact it has quite a few masterpieces that stand out as some of the best in the series, but I think Masato Nakamura's compositions like Green Hill Zone or Casino Night Zone really defined how Sonic music sounds. Sonic 3&K soundtrack still has a Sonic feel, but it's different. In the same way Sonic CD's music is different from the first two, for obvious reasons: Nakamura wasn't the composer anymore.
I also didn't like Sonic's new sprite. They tried to make him look semi "prerendered" since it was the craze at the time when Donkey kong country came out. The big 3D sonic in the title screen always looked kind of creepy and awkward to me. Same with Sonic CD's title screen. I vastly prefer the first 2 game's titles screen sprites, these Sonics are the best Sonic sprites yet.
And onto the in-game sprite on Sonic 3, again, I don't like how it looks, Sonic looks like a cross-eyed goof, instead of a sharp badass motherfucker as in the first 2 games and CD (which is basically 1's sprite).

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:09:27 2015 No.2306889 >>2306818 >>2306842 >>2306876 >>2306881 So, Sonic 2 is 4/4? You go, /vr/.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:10:05 2015 No.2306890

>>2306881

One more thing, level design in Sonic 3 was a bit disappointing too. It got better in &Knuckles, but 3 had some boring zones. I think I only really like Hydrocity a lot, the rest are some okay, some boring.

Angel Island Zone in particular is the weakest first zone. Ever noticed how in Act 1 there's a lot of invincibility monitors? I don't know why I keep getting them everytime I play it. I'm trying to avoid them, there's too many of them scattered around and the music gets annoying, also I don't need that many invincibility on the fucking first level.

/rant

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:12:55 2015 No.2306892 >>2306890 >It got better in & Knuckles Do you have a single fact to back that up? But seriously I don't understand people's preference for & Knuckles

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:15:45 2015 No.2306895 File: 28 KB, 360x135, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2306795 Can you guys tell me the difference between 1 and 2's sprites?

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:18:04 2015 No.2306897

>>2306795
I do prefer Sonic 3&K because of the art (maybe not Sonic/Tails redesign though, they've always looked rubbery) and music. It just has a lot better atmosphere to me and also the length of the game in contrast to 2.

I really enjoy the little cutscenes with Knuckles and Robuttnik a lot, also gives the game a bit more character than the first two. Especially things like the Knuckles fight, chasing the Master Emerald and so forth. The ending fight is also one of the most memorable endings ever.

Sonic 2 is definitely more of a challenge especially the special stages for me these days. I used to be able to get Super Sonic I believe but these days I just can't (but I can get Hyper Sonic in Sonic 3&K with very few fuck-ups mostly on the &K side). You have to be a lot more careful in Sonic 2 stages especially toward the second half and onward. I really hate the Mystic Cave pit and Metropolis is straight up troll tier with the god damn blade throwing mantis faggots or whatever.

Sonic 1 is just blah to me. I grew up with the pack-in Sonic 2 from 93~ or whatever and only went back a while later cause my neighbor had it. The lack of spindash really put me off when I was a kid cause it was easier than git gud. I do enjoy the challenge here and there sometimes but really the only challenge is Labyrinth Zone. And that's just because I hate underwater bullshit in video games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:19:08 2015 No.2306902 The shading on the head, they just kept making him more glossy for some reason as the games went on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:19:15 2015 No.2306903 >>2306895 Do you not have eyes?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:20:09 2015 No.2306904 >>2306895 From that pic it looks like they just changed the colors of the blue fur. Also 3's Sprite looks really dopey, too much like the cartoon art.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:22:36 2015 No.2306908 >>2306892 I simply think it has more levels I enjoy. As I said the only level in Sonic 3 I truly love is Hydrocity, and to a lesser extent Ice Cap and Launch Base... the rest are pretty low tier on my list.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:23:11 2015 No.2306909 >>2306908 But what in &K is better?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:23:37 2015 No.2306912 >>2306895 It's more evident when you see them in movement.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:24:15 2015 No.2306915 File: 51 KB, 487x326, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2306904 I can see your point there

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:25:39 2015 No.2306920 >>2306842 See, I'd say CD had the weakest level design of the 4. Mainly because you need to hunt for things, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of landmarks. I think S3&K is the best, then Sonic 2, then 1 and then CD.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:26:27 2015 No.2306921 File: 32 KB, 506x138, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2306912

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:26:37 2015 No.2306923

>>2306909

Flying Battery, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg, Doomsday.
Mushroom Hill is weak, maybe weaker than Angel Island, and Sandopolis Act 2 is one of these levels that make me want to stop playing. It's not hard, just annoying. Sandopolis Act 1 is a really great level though.

Also, I don't have anything to "back it up", it's all based on personal preference.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:28:12 2015 No.2306926 >>2306795 Sonic 3 Complete >>>>>> S3&K

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:31:16 2015 No.2306932 >>2306923 It was just a Deus Ex reference man. &K just starts really shitty imo. Mushroom Hill is slow, Battery is okay but poorly polished, Sandopolis is AIDs. It gets better from there but it's such a slog early on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:31:18 2015 No.2306934 >>2306926 >>>>>> what's the BIG difference?

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:34:07 2015 No.2306943

I'm with the "pinnacle of the series" crowd.

Best graphic, best music, best endgame (Lava Reef and onwards > anything in the series before or since)- just about the only thing I can hold against it are the occasional annoying gimmicks (which Sonic 2 had its' fair share of as well) and the fact that the bonus stages still suck and there's now even more of them to suffer through if you want the best ending.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:35:41 2015 No.2306945 >>2306943 >Blue Sphere not BASED What is wrong with you

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:37:34 2015 No.2306947 File: 24 KB, 320x368, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2306895 Beta sonic's run was goat

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:38:33 2015 No.2306948 >>2306932 I think FB is like the fusion between Metropolis and Wing Fortress from Sonic 2. I really like that zone, one of my favorites from S&K. I agree about Mushroom. And really, Sandopolis is only shitty on Act 2, Act 1 is a pretty good level.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:41:55 2015 No.2306952 >>2306948 Sandopolis 1 has really tedious platforming exacerbated by 3's heavy controls

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:55:33 2015 No.2306979

>>2306934
There's a huge list, too big to fit into one post. It basically aims to fix bugs, give you selectable options like your own event music choices, and make it more consistent as one game.

There's also totally autism-level palette and level fixes, but it looks and plays better so you won't care.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 20:58:42 2015 No.2306986 >>2306979 >autism-level I'm pretty sure he means the non-meme form. Some of the fixes are literally "a single pixel is off." It's mindblowing that so much dedication went into that.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:59:32 2015 No.2307242

>>2306979
Like the fix that accidentally prevents Hyper Sonic from running his full speed? Literally all of the music track changes are worse than default S3K and just need to be set back to how they were for the game to feel natural. The only worthwhile reason to care about S3C over S3K is the restoration of the proper Launch Pad Zone boss fight.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:07:47 2015 No.2307251

I once saw someone (it might have been on /vr/, but I can't remember) make a good point about how the first Sonic game was the only one of the Genesis trilogy to get bonus stages right. Their reasoning was that Sonic 1's bonus/emerald stages were all based on mechanics you use in the main game, whereas in Sonic 2 and 3 they throw you into a weird 3D perspective that is used nowhere else and clashes with the established design.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:19:35 2015 No.2307262

>>2307251
A reasonable argument, but I still think blue spheres is the best bonus game. And I really like how bonus stages in 3 were hidden in levels instead of just passing X with 50 rings.

2 had the hands-down worst special stages though. What bullshit. The rings dont' render until they're right in front of you and the controls are so goddamn twitchy. Not to mention the fact that when you return to the game, you start with zero rings again. That always annoyed the hell out of me.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:27:33 2015 No.2307265

>>2306795
Jewy piece of shit that marked the beginning of Sega's downfall as they continuously pushed short-term profit at the expense of long-term sustainability. I don't give a shit if they had limited cart space, Sonic 2 had plenty of cut content too. Either shave off enough to release Sonic 3 as a proper standalone game or expand both Sonic 3 and S&K so they're full games in their own rights. Releasing two half-games both at full price was a shitty move.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:32:36 2015 No.2307273 >>2307262 this 3 > 1 > 2 > cd as far as special stages imo

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:40:50 2015 No.2307294 >>2307265 >Sonic 2 had plenty of cut content too Yeah, and it shows.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:53:41 2015 No.2307320

There's actually a way to predict where the rings are gonna appear on the special stages in Sonic 2 (if the tube curves to the right, rings are gonna appear on the left, and viceversa).
Also, most of the blue spheres in S&K are rather bullshit too, instead of finding groups of blue spheres and transforming them into rings by getting the ones from the outside, you're required to follow linear paths, use yellow spheres to jump, etc. It's mostly down to memorizing the patterns, although like in Sonic 2, there is a sort of way to predict it.
Sonic CD looked really cool back in the day, but these UFOs are annoying as fuck.

Sonic 1's bonus has the best music and visuals.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:55:28 2015 No.2307323 >>2307320 >(if the tube curves to the right, rings are gonna appear on the left, and viceversa). That only works in the first few ones. The later ones, fuck it, you're on your own.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:16:21 2015 No.2307348

>>2307294
Sonic 2 was at least a full game. 11 zones with normally 2 acts per zone; a total of 20 acts. Sonic 1 had 19 acts across 7 zones. Sonic CD had 21 "zones" across 7 "rounds". Sonic 3 had a paltry 12 acts and Sonic & Knuckles had 13. Nowhere near the same content, yet both released at the same full price as the others. If both had been released at a lower price it would have been acceptable, but what they ended up releasing was shit. It's only afterward in the age of emulation and re-releases that people think S3&K was good and not a massive disappointment after 2.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 05:24:25 2015 No.2307623

>>2307242

I'll say it again:

There are no changes to Hyper Sonic's speed. Super and Hyper speed stats have always been exactly the same as each other. See http://info.sonicretro.org/SPG:Super_Speeds#Super.2FHyper_Sonic . There is absolutely no code in the original game to give Hyper Sonic a higher speed than Super.

Perhaps something else has changed that affects the perception of speed.

I assume you're the same guy who thought this was related to the speed shoe changes. Super Sonic plus speed shoes just gave you normal Sonic's speed shoe stats, which completely nerfed your acceleration compared to Super/Hyper (which is the actual fun part of the transformation) in return for a small gain in top speed. I always found accidentally collecting them to be a thoroughly miserable experience. I can guarantee you that the sneaker fixes cannot possibly be related to any perceived changes to Hyper Sonic.

If you can demonstrate an actual difference from the original in this respect, we can look at fixing it.

As for your other comments on the music, it's fairly obviously a matter of personal taste, which is why there are options.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 05:53:43 2015 No.2307638 >>2307623 You one of the devs for Sonic 3 Complete? If so are you ever gonna fix the clipping error in Desert Palace Zone? It's been in there for several revisions now...

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 06:29:56 2015 No.2307651 >>2306932 I have to be honest, I thoroughly enjoy all those zones. Mushroom Hill is one of my favourites visually, and all the silly little gimmicks make it fun to play through. And fuck, I love Sandopolis act 2, it's one of my favourite acts in Sonic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 06:42:14 2015 No.2307661 Didn't think much of Vanilla Sonic 3 and Knuckles but after playing Sonic 3 Complete it's easily my favorite game in the series.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:00:39 2015 No.2307671 File: 114 KB, 400x520, 400px-Issue_0_Cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Sonichu >>>>> all

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:05:58 2015 No.2307672 >>2307671 back to /v/ please

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:20:29 2015 No.2307679 Sonic 3 Complete is basically the only way you should play S3&K these days. It's still a great game after all these years.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:23:48 2015 No.2307683 >>2307679 agreed. grew up with the real thing when it came out and got &k. sonic3c is now the only way i will play it unless it's on a cart at someone's house and i'm bored. sonic3c is amazing.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:30:33 2015 No.2307715

>>2307638
I can have a look. I don't have it in front of me right now, but will it be immediately obvious if I try playing it? If not, could you give me some steps to reproduce?

Competition doesn't get much love I'm afraid... we don't do much specific work on it, which means it doesn't get tested much, which means sometimes bad things creep in, especially since hardly anyone plays it to report back.

I'm aware of one issue in Desert Palace where one of the loop tiles has duff collision, so hitting it in a certain way can throw you backwards at high speed, but that's been there since S3&K - I always assumed it's related to S3&K's fix for flying over the top of Balloon Park, but I couldn't say for sure right now.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:48:29 2015 No.2307969

>>2307715

Try spin-dashing through the entire zone instead of running through it like a "normal" player would do. One of the intersecting pathways should completely block you from progressing until you run through it (the "normal" way most players would likely play the VS zones), optionally either throwing you on the pathway it intersects with or triggering the semi-famous pre-existing glitch you've already referenced.

If it helps, I tested the same area in vanilla S3&K- unless it's Kega being hinky the glitch does not occur.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:16:16 2015 No.2308009

>>2307969
>One of the intersecting pathways should completely block you from progressing until you run through it

That happens in one place in Mushroom Hill act 2 as well, in vanilla S&K, near the end of the zone once everything turned into lush green. If you keep holding down, you stop in your tracks immediately. I think you also revert to running if you were spindashing previously.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:20:29 2015 No.2308013

>>2308009

I dunno what to say, guy. I just know the behavior wasn't there in vanilla S3&K; it's one of the first things I tested after confirming that the bug happened consistently (no sense in reporting it if you need esoteric vidya deep-magic to trigger).

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 15:30:10 2015 No.2308165

>>2308009
I believe you, but I'm having trouble reproducing it. Could you maybe mail me using the address in the blurb on the S3C page and I'll try to dig further? Videos, savestates and the like are especially helpful (but I'll do my best in any case).

>>2308013
The game is full of that kind of silliness, unfortunately. It's one of the most annoying issues, but exceedingly difficult to fix without pulling the engine and/or all the collision data apart. Dropping to a run is normally caused by rolling from an object onto terrain, whereas stopping dead is normally a straightforward terrain collision mishap.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 15:45:05 2015 No.2308198 >>2307348 That's not really a fair comparison. Acts in S3&K are like 2x as large or larger, and overall have tons more content.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:47:27 2015 No.2308426

>>2307623
Holy shit, you REALLY never fucking played as Hyper Sonic and made a patch to improve the game? Play the full fucking game first before you modify it, god damn. NO ONE would be stupid enough to buy this. Hyper Sonic is factually and obviously faster than Super Sonic in play and it's obvious that it came from code that applies the speed shoes buff to Super Sonic because you changed it, not a direct alteration to his stats.

And Super Sonic DOES go faster with speed shoes. What fucking batshit version did you even PRETEND to test the original mechanics on? This isn't a subtle difference in play at all, it's noticable and you could not have failed to notice it if you actually tested the goddamn game yourself instead of looking at spaghetti genesis assembly code and assuming you understood it at first inspections. One of the fundamental differences in speed between the two states is the ability to run up steeper slopes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:51:10 2015 No.2308430 >>2306795 Best sonic game cuz hyper forms are God.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:54:03 2015 No.2308437 >>2308165 So....You are or are not going to fix it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:34:12 2015 No.2308587 Sonic 3 complete is the best sonic game ever made.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:37:21 2015 No.2308592 >>2308437 No.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:57:25 2015 No.2308602

>>2308437
I will try to fix it if I can observe it, but I must not be hitting the bit mentioned here - I am probably being a bit thick, but I need more help in spotting where the difference is before I can work on it.

>>2308426
Produce a valid demonstration that compares a like-for-like scenario between Super and Hyper, and ideally where this differs in S3C, and I will look at it, and bow to your correctness. There are lots of things that are "obvious" from observation that are patently untrue, such as "Tails accelerates faster than Sonic". Produce comparable evidence and I will consider it.

I would also be interested to know how it's "obvious" that this comes from the code to apply speed shoes to Super Sonic considering the state of the "spaghetti genesis assembly code"? The only place that the speed shoes buff is applied is from the monitor, and it's a known bug that all the sneaker monitor's effects are permanently cancelled by touching water. Does Hyper Sonic get permanently slower after he touches water, even after emerging? (By the way, the "speed shoes buff" is a direct alteration of player stats, same way Super and Hyper are, which is exactly why it overwrites those stats, and gets overwritten itself by the direct changes applied by entering water).

The page I linked is independent research; it was not written by me, but it correlates with my experience. I am not perfect; I am not even among the best 68K hackers, not by a long shot, and I never assume anything based on "first inspections"; part of the reason for the limited scope of S3C is to reduce the likelihood of unintended consequences from significant changes. If I am wrong here, I will fix it, but I do need a bit more evidence than "it's obvious, go look" when nobody else has reported this in the last five years of S3C being available.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:42:17 2015 No.2308793
File: 72 KB, 1294x532, sonic run test.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2308602
I'm, not 100 percent sure what you guys are arguing about, but everything is easy to test in-engine. just enable debug and frame by frame. i'm using the original world release.

for instance start here left against the wall, pause, hold right and count each C frame you press. you'll hit the push sprite at the spikes in:
>super
119 C presses
>hyper
119 C presses

>super with speed shoes
141 C presses
>hyper with speed shoes
141 C presses

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 22:00:44 2015 No.2308814

>>2308426
>Hyper Sonic is factually and obviously faster than Super Sonic

No he isn't. Same exact speed. Only thing that makes him faster is that multidirectional air dash.

For the speed shoes, it increases top speed beyond Super Sonic, but it has a much worse acceleration than Super Sonic. So you can reach faster speeds, but it takes longer to get to max speed.

The extra acceleration is what makes Super Sonic be able to run up anywhere no matter how much distance he had. He goes from 0 to max speed so fast.

As I recall the speed shoes applied the same stats to supersonic as regular sonic, so you actually moved more sluggish with supersonic + speed shoe powerup. Your max speed was still higher, but you couldn't platform around or turn directions as fast.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 05:19:48 2015 No.2309593

>>2308814
Exactly this. Thank you for putting it better than I could. Which leads to the results in...

>>2308793
Over this relatively short stretch, speed shoes' weak acceleration compared to Super/Hyper is much more important than the top speed increase, so speed shoes actually give you a worse time. Over a long enough flat stretch, the speed shoes guy would do better due to the top speed improvement.

One could use the same test to verify that normal Sonic with speed shoes gives you exactly the same result as Super/Hyper with speed shoes, and that S3C gives the same results as S3&K for Super/Hyper, but not for Super/Hyper with speed shoes, where you would see the same results as regular Super/Hyper.

One thing I will concede is that, since Hyper Dash can be used to bypass the acceleration phase, it *is* possible to make productive use of speed shoes added to Hyper in regular S3&K, as long as you never try to accelerate on the ground. Personally, I feel this is pretty minor, and I'd rather take the improvement in all the other cases at the expense of this, but then I would say that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 06:20:10 2015 No.2309646 I was 10 when Sonic 3 came out. I remember when robotonik's robots burn down the entire forest. your motherfucking home I had a visceral reaction. I wanted to cut his head off. It especially bugged me that I could never beat the game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:19:21 2015 No.2311160 >>2309646 >your motherfucking home Actually Sonic is just visiting.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:21:00 2015 No.2311167 >>2311160 But it is Knuckles' motherfucking home.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:17:09 2015 No.2311527 Imo; Sonic 3 and knuckles > sonic 2 > sonic 1 > sonic adventures > sonic CD > robotnik mean bean machine > sonic pinball >>>> every other sanic games

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:30:06 2015 No.2311536 Sonic 3 was too power up heavy and knuckles was an incredibly laggy piece of shit designed by a completely western team. Also the knuckles cartridge never worked properly with sonic 1-3

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:48:06 2015 No.2311548 >>2306895 Sonic from 1 and 2 looked like he was on a mission to fuck that egg bastard up. Sonic 3 has no presence

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:50:57 2015 No.2311550 >>2306943 >>2306943 >best endgame (Lava Reef and onwards > anything in the series before or since) I disagree Sky chase to Death Egg is the superior end run.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:54:15 2015 No.2311556 >>2311167 And Knuckles is a fucking prick for most of the game. Fuck that four headed dick asshole

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:08:55 2015 No.2311567 >>2311550 >Sky chase to Death Egg is the superior end run Wing Fortress is indeed awesome, but Sky Chase is tedious bullshit, and Death Egg is utterly inferior to its' 3&K incarnation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:15:59 2015 No.2311578 >>2311556 There's a reason for all that. Fuck if i can remember though. I do know the comics explained it well.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:16:29 2015 No.2311579

>>2306948
Sandopolis 2 gets a lot of hate, more than it deserves. Except the part where you fall through slides the rest is pretty good: the level is big, the ghosts are a take on underwater-like levels without slowing you down, the sand filling is challenging (like hill top in sonic 2) and the ambience is fantastic. I find Labytinth Zone (can't remember if 1 or 2) to be more of a chore and it is still good to me.

Regarding which game is better it is hard to tell. I first finished 2 and I loved it to death but when I got S3&K (actually s&k colle on pc) I was blown away by it. Sonic 2 may be better balanced and has a lot of variety for just 1 game but s3&k has so many stuff: 1 more character, save system, 2 players, immense replayability (for a game of the era that felt like a next gen feature), the presentation, the blue sphere minigame, the multiple endings, the hyper forms. You could analise the series level by level but if you look at how the series advance it is really fantastic: considering s3&k to be one game then the series gets bigger exponentially. And then you have the fancy bside that sonic cd is. Every game in the series has some flaws and I think they hurt because as a series it was fantastic (and that helps see the bad stuff better) but in the end of the day those flaws are not so bad. Too bad today it is what it is but for the time those games were a perfect example on how to have sequels: improve quantity and quality (you can see they were really trying to get more quality in each release even if every game has its shiny spots over the others) through releases and wrap it up with a presentation that's up to that rise.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:25:18 2015 No.2311594 >>2311579 I think the main problem with Sandopolis is the complete lack of branching paths minus a couple of minor Knuckles detours that are really out of the way, but that's an issue with most of the S&K levels.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:34:44 2015 No.2311606 >>2311567 Robotnix final robot has a much grander sense of occasion in 2. The fight in 3 feels really boring to me

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:58:11 2015 No.2311642 >>2311606 The opening bit where you have to destroy each of the fingers is tedious, I'll agree, but I'd argue that the second phase more than makes up for it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 05:08:14 2015 No.2311652 >>2308793 that filter is so stupid >i'ma blur pixels with more pixels!

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 05:09:14 2015 No.2311653 >>2311606 sonic 3's is too easy and sonic 2's is too hard. doomsday zone was cool though

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 05:35:10 2015 No.2311674

>>2311594
You're right but I take it as an endurance level and it's pretty good at that. You're going into the core of a pyramid, which is a tomb more than a city (I know pop media sometimes put branching mazes inside pyramids but it tends to be just trial after trial (and I think real pyramids don't branch unless it's a dead end but I could be wrong))

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 05:56:00 2015 No.2311693

>>2306795
Put me with those that think it's the best one. I loved the replayability of the game, 3 different characters and you got to collect the regular emeralds and then the special ones with each one of them.

1, 2 and CD are still great but 3&K is simply better.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 09:59:53 2015 No.2311861
File: 73 KB, 1292x532, sonic clouds.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2311652
its only a slight blur and it gives the transparency effect the devs went for. i'd rather have blur than scanlines honestly, they never felt like they added anything to the picture imo.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 10:21:38 2015 No.2311894

>>2306795
i don't think i ever got hyper sonic or any of that crap as a kid, i just played the game and ended with like 4 emeralds.

Anyways, It's much prettier, the "cutscenes", the stage design, to the end, it's great. But sonics looks too round and rubbery, and that spin in the air tech, i never understood it's point, it's not like it extends your attack range or does more damage.

Sonic 2 is my favourite, but the stage design is not always as great (oil stage, top hill)

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 10:23:15 2015 No.2311895 >>2311861 that looks like shit bro. Everything is blurry as fuck. I'd either play it with some CRT effect for nostalgia, or see every pixel, not seeing every pixel smudged into eath other

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 10:40:58 2015 No.2311921

>>2311895
There's a NTSC filter by blaarg for kega, that works better and adds some slight rainbowing as well. It works odd for 32x stuff though, it downsamples the output and you end up losing colours.

>>2311894
>that spin in the air tech, i never understood it's point, it's not like it extends your attack range

That's exactly what it does. It also allows you to hit enemies you couldn't otherwise, without getting damaged yourself. Like those things with the spikes spinning around them in Ice Cap.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 12:55:25 2015 No.2312063
File: 1.38 MB, 1280x720, Hidden Palace Zone.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2308602

Sorry for getting back to you so late (Janifaggotry), but it's dead-simple to test the Desert Palace thing- literally spin-dash through the entire level. Unless some guy's fixed it since last I checked (about a year ago), you will hit a bit of intersecting path up an incline that will stop you in your tracks. Occasionally, it will also deposit you (at near a dead stop mind you) on the wrong section of track at the intersect, which unfortunately is "earlier" in zone. So by following this method, you are incapable of completing Desert Palace.

Rarely, instead of doing the above two behaviors it will instead trigger the "backwards at high-speed" glitch, but as that behavior was already present in vanilla it hardly seems extant (plus it only happened once during the whole time I tested).

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 14:59:06 2015 No.2312209 >>2311861 just use a linear filter then. i feel like i need reading glasses looking at that shit

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 15:16:57 2015 No.2312237 File: 191 KB, 256x349, chaotix.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Chaotix > S3&K > 2 > 3 > S&K > Triple Trouble > 1 >>>> CD

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:01:00 2015 No.2312423

>>2312063
http://youtu.be/J0qhgfqL3Iw
This is me failing to reproduce it on the last released version (130810), possibly due to overengineering my attempts to spindash through it. Further guidance appreciated! Or any further props, e.g. a savestate of an about to be released spindash that will trigger it, or something.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:03:27 2015 No.2312426 File: 82 KB, 625x626, 1422367269477.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2312237 >Chaotix

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:49:21 2015 No.2312487
File: 892 KB, 1280x720, Victory After The Doomsday.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2312423

Somebody has to have fixed it (not necessarily deliberately). As a "final test", could you try breaking out of a spindash with a jump (where intersects permit, of course)? If you can't trigger it after that, then it has to be fixed, because you're testing on KEGA same as me.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 21:49:27 2015 No.2313086

>>2306795
The more I play 3&K, the more I like it, and there are only 3 really big issues overall: Marble Garden is pretty bad, Sandopolis act 2 isn't fun at all, and the barrel is just outright bad game design (I didn't have any issue with it, but the fact that jumping on it moves it pretty much ensures that players might think it's the expected way to proceed).

It's got its share of relatively average stages, but some serious 10/10s as well (Hydrocity, Icecap, Lava Reef)
I think it's the best of the lot.

The more I play Sonic 2, the less I like it. It's an okay game. Rather dull level design throughout. The entire last stretch of the game makes me want to not play anymore (like, Oil Ocean onward is just a complete fucking slog).
oh, and if you play Sonic 2&K, the last boss is almost fucking impossible because Knux can't jump high enough

I want to like Sonic 1, but the stage design is iffy as fuck and most of the stages don't leverage Sonic's speed at all.

>>2312237
I like Chaotix, but it literally has almost no level design. Stages all feel like they're just slapped together just to rush the thing out the door.

GOTYAY music though.

also
>1 >>>> CD
stop

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 22:01:56 2015 No.2313115

>>2313086
I agree with some of this. I'm no big fan of Metropolis Zone - easily the weakest point of the game - and the one after it where you're on Tails' plane is a little gimmicky.

3&K had some really bad stages, and some really good stages, but I feel like 2's stages were better overall. None of them match up with say, Hydrocity, for example, but even my least favorite Sonic 2 stage beats a handful of S3&K ones.

>Sonic 1
Feels like a more traditional platformer - Sonic's slower, and the levels are deadlier, I think. It's got a much different feel than the later 2D games.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 00:19:37 2015 No.2313385 >>2306795 I liked it because of the vertical exploration that Tales and Knuckles afforded. I wish they had given Sonic something to make him seem a little less vanilla besides the static shield.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 00:47:48 2015 No.2313441 >>2306895 I like where they were going with 3's sprite but the eyes and the gloves ruin it for me.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 02:09:32 2015 No.2313562

>>2306876
I wanna say 2 is my favorite because it's the one I remember fondly the most and one of my first video games but it's hard for me to ignore the odd difficulty spike in it. It goes from being ridiculously easy up until Mystic Cave and then gets a lot harder out of no where.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 11:20:40 2015 No.2314015 >>2312063 what is that screen from the pic was too big to search

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 12:32:08 2015 No.2314112 This thread has convinced me that Sonic doesn't even approach Mario in quality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 12:36:14 2015 No.2314117 >>2314112 Your post has convinced me that you have shit taste :^)

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 12:37:22 2015 No.2314119 >>2314112 Not even /vr/ is safe from silly finposting on the weekends.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 14:21:10 2015 No.2314267

>>2313086
CD had fucking garbage level design, constant dead-ins and no sense of direction. Sanic 1 may have had Labyrinth Zone (objectively horrible), but CD had Stardust Speedway, Wacky Workbench, Tidal Tempest, Metallic Madness, all of which were some of the worst Genesis-era stages of all time.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 14:48:02 2015 No.2314305
File: 1.39 MB, 1280x720, Casino Night Zone (1).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2314267

I liked CD, but you're entirely correct in your assessment of the game design; it's noticeably worse. Where we probably differ is that I find it simply "good" and not "great", whereas your opinion seems far less charitable. There's also the old favored argument that Sonic CD "isn't supposed to be played like the other Sonics", but even if this is true (I tend to think so), the level designs are still a bit lacking.

>>2313115

Actually, Metropolis Zone has some of the sloppiest design in Sonic 2. I don't know how many of you guys caught it (the thread I initially posted in has likely 404'd by now), but I posted in a topic about half a month ago how the dude at Zone0 actually looked in to a very specific oddity of Zone 2 or 3; in it there was one "mantis" type of badnik that was seemingly unavoidable due to some yellow side-spring placement. Yet a small minority _insisted_ that there was a way to avoid it appearing at all, and therefore that was how you "avoided" it. Well this seemed like kind of a big deal to that guy (as well as a little bit of mystery, obviously), so he used some semi-prominent Sonic level editing tool that he had custom-modified to take a look. What he find was rather amusing, in a sort of "What the hell were they thinking?!" sort of way. The dude originally expected the occasional failure of the badnik to spawn to be a glitch (similar to how that one ill-placed Rexxon in Hilltop will actually activate an Assembly mis-jump that eventually becomes serious enough to crash the game). But that wasn't the case. As it turns out, taking a different path at a branch point prior to the location in question where the badnik is due to spawn causes a small bit of Assembly to activate that cancels its spawn. Said branch point is not at all the "obvious" path most normal players would take, meaning that for a vast majority of players the unavoidable ambush is all they know about. Truly bizarre...

>>2314015

Deviant Art. Let the trolling commence.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 15:49:10 2015 No.2314397

>>2314267
Stardust Speedway was one of the better levels, it actually allowed you to run around.

It was still a retarded nonsense maze though, and you could get stuck HARD at some points (like on the big tunnel lanes on the end of the second act).

Metallic Madness 2 was the worst though. Just taking the normal route through the stage is something like 8 minutes. If you don't know EXACTLY the correct way, you time out before you can reach the end.

Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:19:55 2015 No.2314823

I prefer 2, with 1 following. For me it's 2>1>CD>3&Knuckles, CD overtook 3&K for me when I stopped looking for Eggman's machines and just got all the timestones instead. Also it has the GOAT JP soundtrack. The games also got progressively easier as time went on.

For special stages it goes 3>CD>1>2. I suck at 1 so I'm not fond of it but it's still better than 2. The UFOs in CD can be finnicky butit gives you infinite time to deal with them if you keep catching the time UFO.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:27:43 2015 No.2314846 >>2314305 Regarding Metropolis info: If true, that's really crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:28:26 2015 No.2314848 >>2312237 Only good thing in Chaotix is rubberband physics. Well tha and Espio's wall running and the red one 's (forgot the name at the moment) wall jumping.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:31:24 2015 No.2314860 >>2314823 Actually want to change it to CD=3&K.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:37:14 2015 No.2314874 >>2314848 >combi ring >good thing What. Are you nuts, that crap is completely useless.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 19:40:33 2015 No.2314884 >>2314874 >Flinging around at the speed of sound >bad

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 20:02:09 2015 No.2314917 >>2314884 Yeah, at the cost of a severely gimped spindash.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 20:23:19 2015 No.2314957 >>2314917 I can deal with that because it's so fun

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 28 23:26:20 2015 No.2315319 don't find too many people that like the first game over the third quite a few people prefer 2 and CD but not much the first one.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 29 14:00:33 2015 No.2316361 >>2312423 >Tiddles Thank you for improving this game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:19:48 2015 No.2320409 File: 41 KB, 750x750, JackShining.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2320404 >autism >epic go back to /v/ please. This post will be more appreciated there.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:29:51 2015 No.2320421 >>2320404 This. Sonic 3 was just a long, easy, ugly, boring game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:37:05 2015 No.2320431 >>2320421 It's pretty great when you're a kid, though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:39:40 2015 No.2320436 >>2320421 Sonic 3 was 6 levels tho

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:40:30 2015 No.2320438 Sonic CD and the original are the best ones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:43:17 2015 No.2320441 >>2320431 So is Barney's Hide-and-Seek.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:53:05 2015 No.2320451 >>2320431 I will never know since I was 16 when that game came out.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 11:59:57 2015 No.2320460 >>2320431 >>2320451 lol you can tell he was going to try and go down the "you only like it because you were a kid!" route. On fucking /vr/ of all places. As >>2320409 said, go back to /v/.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 12:02:00 2015 No.2320463 >>2320460 Who are you talking to?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 12:02:45 2015 No.2320465 >>2320463 This guy: >>2320431 >>2320404

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 12:04:27 2015 No.2320470 >>2320465 One of those posts was my posts. I was defending the game, moron.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 12:09:20 2015 No.2320474 >>2320460 >On fucking /vr/ of all places. We shitpost as much as any other board.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 12:34:47 2015 No.2320491 >muh /vr/ You faggots really need to fuck off with that shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 13:58:01 2015 No.2320616 >>2320438 Shit taste detected.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 13:58:44 2015 No.2320621 >>2320616 But he's right. About the CD part.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:02:16 2015 No.2320628 >>2320616 I agree with him actually. They're the only two Sonic games of the original series that play like pure platformers. Sonic 2 and 3 are good, but they concentrate more on the going fast aspect than the challenging platforming aspect.

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:05:38 2015 No.2320635

>>2320621
You CDfag hipsters never learn, do you? Read this post and refute his points or re-analyze your favorite Sonic game:

>>2314267
>>2314305

The level design in CD ranged from mediocre to absolutely horrid. Only the art and music saves it.

Also inb4 Taxman, we are talking about the original release here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:05:49 2015 No.2320636 >>2320474 It's mostly Sonic fans that do it. They're wired differently.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:07:27 2015 No.2320641 >>2320635 Different guy here. I like Sonic CD's level design. It was more platform and obstacle centric and less....keep holing right until you reach the end of the stage centric.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:08:51 2015 No.2320645 >>2320635 okay >>2314305 >the level designs are still a bit lacking. >no examples okay >>2314267 >no sense of direction in a game about exploration okay

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:12:41 2015 No.2320651 >>2320635 >You CDfag hipsters never learn, do you? Different people play games for different reasons. What a strange concept.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:22:11 2015 No.2320664 >>2320645 >about exploration not really, you can get the best ending by just collecting the time stones like any other sonic also what's the point in exploring, all there is is finding the metal sonic hologram and the other thing

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:37:48 2015 No.2320704

>>2320664

There's two ways to get the best ending, yes.

You can play it like a traditional Sonic game by collecting all the gems, or you can do it the other way by getting the best future in each zone.

It's nice that the game gives you more than one way to play through the game. Most Sonic games don't do this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 14:40:39 2015 No.2320708 >>2320704 I like doing both, myself. Those special stages are fun.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:11:02 2015 No.2321275 >>2306795 Sonic 3 & knuckles AND Mario 3 are the best games of their respective series. And the games I enjoyed the most, thus why they're rated so. That is my objective opinion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:12:09 2015 No.2321280 Put me in the 'Sonic CD is the best one' camp. All of the Genesis Sonic games were good, though.

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:23:03 2015 No.2321296

>>2320641
CD's level design is chunky as fuck. Deliberately so. Hell, there are a bunch of spots designed to break your warps JUST before you activate them, and you have to pace yourself a bit so you can start the warp process in a better place/avoid the thing that's there to stop you.

It's very much designed around expecting people to try to go back/forward in time.

if there's one thing I love CD for: you can control your movement after jumping out of a roll, holy fuck not being able to that was annoying in other games

It's a nice game, but it's got real issues (Wacky Workbench is hilariously bad, and Stardust Speedway is pretty damn weak).
best stage is easily Quartz Quadrant, that shit's fun

man, now I wonder how much of the team that worked on CD did Chaotix. They have a REALLY similar visual style and somewhat similar stage design (although Chaotix has some hilariously lazy levels, and whoever designed Amazing Arena needs to be stabbed).

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:41:33 2015 No.2321332 >>2321296 >CD's level design is chunky as fuck >there are a bunch of spots designed to break your warps JUST before you activate them so you don't like any kind of challenge at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:43:16 2015 No.2321337 >>2321296 I agree about Wacky Workbench, fuck that level, but I thought Stardust Speedway was fun as hell. One of the game's highlights.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:46:30 2015 No.2321341 >>2306795 it's my favorite. CD behind it then 1 then 2. 2 may be low because i've played the shit out of it though and it bores me now.

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:55:12 2015 No.2321357

>>2306795
I just remember this game as being the last in its series to feature "faster speed through rolling". For some reason in later games, you slow down when you roll but you're fastest when you run. Hell, you were faster rolling as regular Sonic than running with Super Sonic

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 20:57:34 2015 No.2321358 I kinda miss the speedcap, it felt really good and rewarding when you used the terrain in order to go faster

Anonymous Wed Apr 1 00:02:38 2015 No.2321625

>>2320645
>About exploration
Of what? You really don't find anything interesting when running around a CD level outside of the neat music and backgrounds. I'd get it if they would put an easter egg or two in there, but all you're exploring is the level layout in this case.

>>2320636
Sonic and FF threads are usually the centers of it all. FF even has a pastebin to shut up the worst cause of it quickly as possible.

Sorry guys, but I can't help but seeing where it crops up the most.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 1 00:40:01 2015 No.2321686 File: 25 KB, 88x96, sdsaad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2321625 >I'd get it if they would put an easter egg or two in there, but all you're exploring is the level layout in this case.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 1 00:45:23 2015 No.2321696 >>2306795 Best Sanic, and my introduction to the series (albeit through the PC Collection).

Anonymous Wed Apr 1 00:48:06 2015 No.2321704

I overplayed S3K a lot as a kid, along with 2

As a result of that I find that both became kind of boring, but S3K is good for a playthrough now and then

Fuck 2 though, some of the levels get really boring and forgettable and feel like a fucking chore to play

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 1 07:37:29 2015 No.2322072 >>2321704 I totally agree. I can't even play S2 or 3K anymore for just that reason. It's so ingrained in my brain that it's a chore. Oddly enough, I don't have this issue with the original or CD.

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