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/vr/ - Retro Games

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2069252 No.2069252[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

I do not see why, other then nostolgia, anyone could like racing games that use mode 7 and shitty scaling.

"I think the first F-zero is better"

Really? it's better then ACTUAL 3D?

Once we had 3d racing we should never go back, it is 100 percent better, but people will still insist that Mario Cart SNES is their prefered game over even Mario Kart 64.

>> No.2069258

If anything the early 3d racing games are worse with the terrible draw distance they had. Stuff like Daytona on Saturn.

Both 2d scaling and the early 3d racing games are still enjoyable for me though.

>> No.2069272
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2069272

I don't understand how "actual 3D" on a 2D screen is better than "scaled 2D" on a 2D screen.

Could you elaborate?

>> No.2069273

What is a well made game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5F2xBD5V9A

> Hockenheim in less than a minute

>> No.2069279

>>2069252
F-Zero, as someone on /v/ said, was Nintendo's "Crysis". They were a series of games developed exclusively to show off their consoles capabilities, especially when the competition made it a point to belittle Nintendo's consoles on any front. For example, F-Zero demonstrated that the SNES could do a racing game with a scalable background instead of the then-obsolete scanline system earlier games used. It also demonstrated that this was one thing the Genesis couldn't do as well, and unlike the majority of SNES games, it did so using the bare stock hardware.

F-Zero X was to show that it could do a 60FPS full 3D game, a feat that was rather uncommon at the time. The only other 60FPS full 3D game I could think of was Daytona USA, which was on, ironically, weaker hardware than the N64, six years earlier no less.

GX was to demonstrate the fact that Sega always made better games than Nintendo the GameCube could power a frantic racer with 30 relatively well detailed machines on screen at the same time, at 854x480p @ 60FPS. The PS2 could barely run games at 240p, anything higher would warrant the games to run at a SILKY SMOOTH 15FPS, such as Shadow of the Colossus.

>> No.2069292

>>2069279
and this is the reason why Nintendo has not made an F Zero since the Gamecube.
F Zero games were both great games and tech demo's of what Nintendo's console could do.
The last F Zero was on Gamecube because it was the last time Nintendo had a console as powerful or more powerful than the competition (more powerful than PS2, less than Xbox)
An F Zero on Wii wouldn't have looked good next to PS3 Wipeout.

>> No.2069297

>>2069272
Because actual 3d at least has decent depth cues. Flat pseudo-3d doesn't.

>> No.2069298

>>2069279
>The PS2 could barely run games at 240p, anything higher would warrant the games to run at a SILKY SMOOTH 15FPS

What the fuck are you even talking about.

>> No.2069302

>>2069292
With the Wii, I can see why they skipped over it. But maybe F-Zero Wii U could show off a software related feat. Maybe it could be the very first full 3D Wii U game to run at 1080p @60FPS thanks to some programming black magic. It would also be one of the few, if not the only, 1080p 60FPS full 3D 8th gen game. Then again, they couldn't get Donkey Kong, a railroaded sidescroller with relatively low detail environments and objects, to run at 1080p. Perhaps Nintendo could get the wizards from AM2 and Factor 5 together and cook the unholy concoction of code.

>> No.2069303

>>2069279
/thread

>> No.2069307

>>2069252
I wasn't aware anyone was making these claims. Or if they are, then they don't sound like anyone I would ever want to know.

>> No.2069308

>>2069279
>The PS2 could barely run games at 240p, anything higher would warrant the games to run at a SILKY SMOOTH 15FPS, such as Shadow of the Colossus.

The amount of games on the PS2 that run at 240p can be counted on one hand; just about the entire library is 480i, some at 480p, and Shadow of the Colossus is an exception in terms of games that ran at unplayable framerates. Most games ran 30. Many ran at 60. Metal Gear Solid 2, Zone of the Enders, any Tekken game -- Tekken, of course, always ran at 60fps even on the PSX -- any Soul Calibur game, Virtua Fighter, Gradius V, the DBZ Budokai (not Tenkaichi) 1, 2, and 3, Devil May Cry, 1, 2, and 3, Time Crisis 2 and 3, the list goes on... I'll never understand this whole "There weren't many 3D games that ran at 60 frames per second in the 6th generation". If anything this got worse with the 7th generation.

>> No.2069310

It may be rough to look at, but this game is still fucking boss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe3boVLNeSU

>> No.2069312

>>2069302
>the only 1080p 60fps game of 8th gen

Have you heard of this thing called a PS4? They have quite a few games that do that. I even own some of them.

>> No.2069314

>>2069279
>The PS2 could barely run games at 240p
You meant 480, right?

>> No.2069316

>>2069312
>>2069308
>What is slowdown
>What is fps drops
>What is can't maintian constant 60 fps
>What is scaled output

>> No.2069320

>>2069316
None of those games I mentioned suffered from slowdown. I would have listed Zone of the Enders 2 and Dynasty Warriors 3 if I were talking about games that have unlocked framerates but suffer from slowdown.

>> No.2069323

>>2069308
But the PS2 had one major advantage to it's side. It was RETARDEDLY popular, to the point where many PS2 games outshine GameCube and even Xbox games, if only because these developers were so well acquainted with the machine and Sony kept shoveling money to developers.

>> No.2069328

>>2069252
Some people enjoyed the gameplay of those games more and choose not to focus ENTIRELY on graphics, as you seem to.

Personally, I like that early 2.5D racers had to rely entirely on gameplay, content, controls, ect, because the graphics weren't getting them anywhere. They HAD to be good games in a core sense, or they'd flop HARD. And those that weren't genuinely good, did in fact flop.

Another example is PS1 racing games like NFS3, witch are arguably better than later entries in the same series, because of hardware limitations. There had to be more options, resulting in more potential combinations and ultimately thousands of ways to play the game. Unlike Hot Pursuit (PS3/360), witch has 1-10 cars for each course, but you can't alter any options at all, can't use 90% of the cars on most courses, can't pick your race type and there's no reason to ever play the game a second time if you're focusing on single player.

Not saying F-Zero X and F-Zero GX aren't as good as F-Zero, because that's just wrong, but it IS a totally different experience and doesn't rely on graphics and having a million vehicles in each race like those two games do. so a purist will enjoy how straight forward and not fake the original F-Zero is.

To me, F-Zero is a pure racing experience without all the gimmicks, while X and GX take things to a higher level, but lose a little something in the process. They're less about the racing and more about playing into the "script". 99% of enemy racers are retarded and don't pose a challenge, and you're meant to take victory in the last moments. And that's not racing to me. You may as well play The Last of Us or MGS2 if you want a game to be scripted to that extent...

>> No.2069329
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2069329

> 2.5D racing games are better than 3D
>
> PS2 can run 4k@240fps

Seriously, this fucking board...

>> No.2069330

>>2069308
PS2 got a lot of flak for running low res because the entire launch library looked like ass compared to what the Dreamcast already did with 2 years older hardware, at 480p, while PS2 barely did 480i and without antialiasing. Multiplatform titles like Dead or Alive 2 had details toned down and still had tons of jaggies everywhere.

Yes, later games ended up way more beautiful, but those came out so many years later.

>>2069312
If they run at 1080p 60fps then they probably all look like ass compared to lower-res lower-framerate titles.

The reason many games don't run at that high resolution is because it steals a significant amount of horsepower from the machine that you could use for things like improved detail, lightning, draw distance, etc.. And for some ultra-cinematic fps like call of duty and such, extra detail helps immersion a lot more than higher fps. The games that need high fps are those with faster gameplay, and in those, they can potentially forgo small details because the game would be going so fast that you can't see them anyway.

>> No.2069334

>>2069328
>They're less about the racing and more about playing into the "script". 99% of enemy racers are retarded and don't pose a challenge, and you're meant to take victory in the last moments.
Have you even played X and GX?

>> No.2069337

OFF


TOPIC


SHIT

>> No.2069339

>>2069330
Boy I hear that. I have Summoner, a PS2 launch title. The gameplay itself is enjoyable but goddamn one could easily mistake it for a PS1 title.

>> No.2069348

>>2069330
>If they run at 1080p 60fps then they probably all look like ass compared to lower-res lower-framerate titles.

So you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to 8th gen games.

>> No.2069350

I don't see why anyone should give a fuck what you can see.

>> No.2069352

>>2069330
>And for some ultra-cinematic fps like call of duty and such, extra detail helps immersion a lot more than higher fps

Except CoD runs at 60FPS with the occasional drop. In fact, most FPSes nowadays run at 60FPS.

>> No.2069360

>>2069352
>Except CoD runs at 60FPS with the occasional drop. In fact, most FPSes nowadays run at 60FPS.
I would expect any less of an ignorant comment from someone who still plays new fps.

>> No.2069362
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2069362

Please, graphics whores leave.

>> No.2069370

>>2069348
>>2069352
If I gave a shit about what frame rate the 8th gen Call of Duty runs at, I wouldn't be on /vr/.

>> No.2069374

>>2069362
>implying framerate has nothing to do with control quality

>> No.2069380

>>2069330
>extra detail helps immersion a lot more than higher fps
Bullshit, FPS always helps immersion more than detail. I'd take flat shaded polygons at 60fps over textured 30fps.

>> No.2069383

>>2069308
Shadow of the Colossus was perfectly playable. Why is anything sub 60 considered unplayable these days?

>> No.2069394

>>2069383

I think because it's becoming a standard for the laziness of modern developers. Console games are beyond help anyway these day so whatever.

The people making assassins creed or w/e the shit series is called even defends their game running at below 30 fps.

>> No.2069398
File: 248 KB, 500x375, the-weekenders-tino.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2069398

>muh "aktschual three dee"

this is all I need to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZQakLtizBU

>> No.2069401

>>2069398
Besides nostalgia, I don't see how anyone could prefer this over GX.

>> No.2069402

>>2069383
I bought it in 2006 after /v/ would not stop talking about it and found the game to be, quite literally, unplayable when fighting colossi with the framerate and the iffy camera. It's the only game I've ever gone as far to describe as a "Slideshow framerate". Even Star Fox on SNES I found more playable, because it felt like it was designed around the choppiness.

SotC felt like a game that, like Ico before it, was not meant to be released on the current generation hardware and should have been pushed back to be released on the PS3. The HD collection is nice, but it would have been nice to see a true PS3 SotC rather than a hi-res port with a fixed framerate. I can't imagine how Ico would have turned out if they stuck with the PSX version.

>> No.2069409

>>2069401
Next you'll be telling me that Mario Kart 8 is better than Mario Kart DS.

>> No.2069451

>>2069383
>Why is anything sub 60 considered unplayable these days?
Because it looks and feels like shit. And it's more a modern problem than a /vr/ problem, most 3rd/4th gen games ran at 60fps.

>> No.2069453

>>2069252
"actual 3d" better than 2d huh

The number of dimensions, just as the number of bits or colors or whatever doesn't make a game better. In /vr/ of all places, you can't expect everyone to prefer 3d.

>> No.2069462

>>2069451
Starfox was considered the pinnacle of revolution and it ran at like 10fps.

>> No.2069469

>>2069462
I consider it prototype 5th gen.

>> No.2069471

>>2069462
Maybe if modern console did anything new, ever...

>> No.2069475

>>2069462
Doom was, and likely still is, considered one of the best FPS titles of all time and it runs with a hard cap of 35fps.

>> No.2069476

>>2069475
And it plays much better in modern source ports that remove that cap.

>> No.2069482

>>2069475

The hard cap was necessary due to the nature of computers at the time.

Also, consider that screen scrolling had only been invented for pc games a few years earlier. Doom is amazing.

>> No.2069490

Firstly, yes I agree that real 3D is superior to mode 7 for racing. However, Super Mario Kart actually had better racing mechanics than Mario 64.

>>2069279
Daytona USA was not 60fps on Saturn. Also the Model 2 arcade machine has more horsepower than the N64, even though the hardware features are inferior.

>> No.2069491

>>2069252
SMK was pretty shit. Slipperry with some very poor map design on a few maps.

F-Zero SNES is still pretty decent though. Nothing beats not-retro GX for me, though.

>> No.2069496

>>2069490
*Mario Kart 64

>> No.2069497

>>2069491
>Nothing beats not-retro GX for me, though.

Me either. Too bad about the shitty soundtrack though. Should have kept it cheesy '80s metal imo.

>> No.2069508

>>2069258
In some rare instances the poor draw distance worked believe it or not. One of the best examples is from Road Rash 64, a highly addictive and fun game even today. The poor draw distance adds to the suspense and fun when you have a car or truck speeding toward you at high speeds and you have little time to react and swerve out of the way why dealing with being beaten off your bike by AI. Makes for good fun

>> No.2069518

>>2069471
>Maybe if modern console did anything new, ever...

Starfox did fuck all new other than OMG POLYGONS ON A CONSOLE GAME.

>> No.2069541

>>2069490
>Also the Model 2 arcade machine has more horsepower than the N64, even though the hardware features are inferior.

Other than the bilinear filtering, what hardware features did the N64 have over the Model 2? Serious question.

>> No.2069553

>>2069383
If it wasn't playable, I have no idea how I could finish it multiple times without trouble.

>> No.2069557

>>2069497
Definitely. I didn't mind the Techno, but it certainly lacked that 80's atmosphere that I grew to love from F-Zero.

>> No.2069563

>>2069383
I would say sub-30 is unplayable. 30-59 is playable, but not ideal.

>> No.2069567

>>2069541
Z buffering
Environment mapping
Anti aliasing
Mip maps
Perspective correct textures

>> No.2069574

>>2069409
...and you're actually telling me that Mario Kart DS was better than Super Circuit?

>>2069497
I love F-Zero and F-Zero X's soundtracks (especially X), that 70's-80's hard rock was awesome. But I really like GX's soundtrack. It was different, but you can notice the dedication put into it (just fucking listen to James McCloud's theme)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgXXHP8ROzo

>>2069563
I notice the framerate now, but back in my childhood, I had a blast playing Starfox on the SNES and Turok 2 on the N64.

But I kinda agree with you, framerates below 20-30 are distracting.

>> No.2069580

>>2069482
>invented scrolling

John Carmack "came" with some algorithm to scroll the screen really fast on bitmap games totally dependent on software rendering more than 4 years before and I'm not even sure he was the first one taking a crack at it.

Doom isn't even the first game to do texture mapped 3D, not to mention raycasted 3D, Ultima Underworld had stuff like slopes came out an year earlier. At least have some decency, Doom babies.

>> No.2069596

>>2069252
I really hope Nintendo do make a new F-Zero. The Mute City course in MK8 looks too good.

>> No.2069604

Maybe not everyone cares about graphics pal. For me, the funner game is better. Every F-Zero game is fun as balls.

>> No.2069693

>>2069497
>>2069557

F-Zero didn't look particularly 80's to begin with. Plus I think the Sega-tier music fits, since GX is a Sega game at heart.

>> No.2069718

>>2069580
It wasn't a particularly good algorithm either. All the games that used it still ended up with janky scrolling.

>> No.2069725

>>2069567
>z buffering
>perspective correct textures

Didn't the Model 2 have that? I don't remember any polygon popping on them ever, and the cost would've been a huge rip off if it was just doing affine mapping (existing Sega hardware could've done that if they put enough number crunching power behind it)

>Environment mapping
>mip maps

mipmapping can be done in software (you are just swapping out textures), and Model 2 could do lightning to some degree, Virtua Fighter 2 had that. Could have been just texture palette cycling though.

True on that N64 had gouraud shading and possibly better texturing capabilities, though. Forgot about that.aa

>> No.2069727

>>2069491
>Nothing beats not-retro GX for me, though.

I think it should be given an honorary pass on /vr/. It was only four years after the cutoff date, and there hasn't been a new F-Zero game since 2004. If Nintendo using assets from F-Zero for their DLC actually means they're testing the waters, I doubt they would ever make another F-Zero, and the entire series might as well be /vr/ related since all the games are ancient.

>> No.2069734

>>2069727
No, then almost everyone would want some game made past 2000 to be included on /vr/. /vr/ is specifically made for games made before the year 2000, if you wanna talk about games made after that, take it to /v/ or somewhere else

>> No.2069736

>>2069693

It definitely has that Sega presentation style, particularly in the cutscenes, and the techno is certainly fitting in its way but I just prefer the older soundtracks. Not because F-Zero looks '80s because I agree it doesn't. The metal just sounds better to me and fits the games even more with their over-the-topness.

>> No.2069738

>>2069727
>four years
>only

no son, four years is a long time especially in vidya

>> No.2069739

>>2069734
why isn't Deus Ex /vr/ though?

>> No.2069741

>>2069739
Initial release date: June 22, 2000

>> No.2069776

>>2069741
>development began: 1997

>> No.2069779

>>2069776

Oh come on.

>> No.2069781

>>2069776
So we can talk about Duke Nukem Forever?

>> No.2069784

>>2069779
You're honestly telling me you don't think the game was completed and the disks printed out before 2000 rolled around? You don't think that the publish date was pushed ahead to June purely because the publishers decided to do so?

>> No.2069787

>>2069784
Fuck off, not retro.

December 31st, 1999 is the last day. Take it to /v/.

>> No.2069789

>>2069328
Except the original F-Zero seems even more scripted because of the insane amount of rubber banding. In order to save memory, racers never get too far behind you on the track, which means no matter how good you do, one fuckup could still mean loss. Also, Dr. Stewart is literally fucking always in first. The first game is much more scripted and inorganic than the others.

>> No.2069791

>>2069784

No, because then where does it end? The line was drawn. If we don't abide by it this board has no reason to exist.

>> No.2069793

>>2069776
Initial release date: June 22, 2000
>video games on platforms launched in 1999 and earlier

>> No.2069794

>>2069787
>>2069793
> on platforms launched in 1999 or earlier
>platforms

deus ex was made for win98.
bam.

>> No.2069795

>>2069794
PC is a platform.

>> No.2069797

>>2069795
And?

>> No.2069801

>>2069797
That means PC games also applies to the rule of video games released on platforms launched in 1999 and earlier.
Though I'm not sure what >>2069794
was trying to say.

>> No.2069807

>>2069801
Yeah, you're right!

So we can discuss our favorite Call of Duty games!

I'm all about Black Ops, what about you, fellow retro players?

>> No.2069810

>>2069807
What are you talking about anon?