/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.2016146]

Should SNES games be played in a 8:7 or 4:3 aspect ratio?

[Anonymous No.2016154]

>>2016146
doesn't your picture kind of answer your question

[Anonymous No.2016157]

If you're this autistic about it, it may depend on the game because some developers took notice of how the signal would appear on a 4:3 TV.

Then again, playing it on a 4:3 was just the only way to go unless you built your tube to be 8:7 so you should play it like it was intended, which means 4:3.

[Anonymous No.2016167]

>>2016146
Is there even a tv from the 90s that supports 8:7 ratio? The only way I can think to make that ratio is on a pro monitor by stretching the image.

[Anonymous No.2016176]

>>2016167
The only way I can think to make that ratio is on a pro monitor by stretching the image.

That appears to be the only proper way, if you don't count in getting the image displayed sideways and then turning your monitor, as some arcade machines did.

[Anonymous No.2016182]

It should be played in Cinerama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lII5rXbxcCs

[Anonymous No.2016189]

Cue the Chrono Trigger moon image

[Anonymous No.2016208]

4:3

[Anonymous No.2016325]

I hate yoshi's island.

[Anonymous No.2016328]

>>2016146
4:3

>>2016157
Not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Every developer was aware of the difference between the resolution/pixel size and aspect ratio of TVs. This was something you learned the first day developing for a platform if not earlier. There were stock algorithms for converting shapes. Nothing was "intended" to be played on an 8:7 display. You did your best using the limited resolution and palate you had to make it look as good as possible on a 4:3 display.

[Anonymous No.2016386]

>>2016146
>Should SNES games be played in a 8:7 or 4:3 aspect ratio?
unfortunately this is a big issue. it actually changes per game.
what would be round in 1 game is oval in another.

[Anonymous No.2016456]

>>2016328
I don't know man. This guy on gamefaqs makes a pretty compelling argument to the contrary.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/69097344?page=1

[Anonymous No.2016460]

I swear some of you people spend more time arguing over how games are "supposed" to be played than you do playing the goddamn things

[Anonymous No.2016463]

>>2016386
Anyone happen to have a list anywhere of which games look best at which aspect ratios?

[Anonymous No.2016465]

>>2016325
Baby Mario I can understand, but the whole game?

[Anonymous No.2016493]

>>2016463
I don't think there's a list, but it would be interesting.
also snes seems to be the only console with this issue?
I never noticed messed up circles while emulating genesis.

[Anonymous No.2016502]

>>2016493
I wouldn't be surprised if N64 had the same issue, with its myriad of internal resolutions all getting upscaled.

[Anonymous No.2016508]

I just noticed this is the same thing that happens to NES games on the 3DS, save for the ones that are '3D Classics.'

[Anonymous No.2016513]

>>2016508

I don't think Iw as being clear enough. What I mean is NES games on the 3DS are in 4:3 when they should be in 8:7, while '3D Classics' NES games are in 8:7.

[Anonymous No.2016547]

>>2016456
No he doesn't. All he does is analyze some emulator screen shots from the point of view of someone who never designed graphics or games. He jumps to all the wrong conclusions because he's trying to work backwards from what he sees in am emulator to why it was done that way without an understanding of how the system works and the constraints. The SNES has pixels that aren't square, a relatively low resolution, limited palate, 8 bit bytes, and plenty of other characteristics similar systems have. None of this means games were "intended" to be played on an 8:7display. It's pure emufag fantasy no matter how compelling it sounds to you.

[Anonymous No.2016558]

>>2016493
I think at least a few computers are affected.
From my experience PC-88 and PC-98 use square pixels with a 16:10 aspect ratio but a few odd games seem to employ a 4:3 AR.
With IBM/DOS games I'm used to expect a 4:3 aspect ratio but various games seem to use square pixels.
See Wizardry 6 for instance where the icons for ongoing spells are 22x22, portraits are 23x23, weapon icons are 8x8 and conditions are 7x7.

[Anonymous No.2016561]

>>2016558
Selection is 20x20, minimap 66x66.
The icons will still be elongated in 4:3

[Anonymous No.2016727]

>>2016328
>Every developer was aware of the difference between the resolution/pixel size and aspect ratio of TVs.

By "took notice" I actually meant "took action", calm your tits.

[Anonymous No.2016746]

Some devs took into consideration the aspect ratio the game would be displayed at, some didn't.

To me 8:7 and 4:3 are acceptable, just don't play the games in any other aspect ratio.

[Anonymous No.2016776]

4:3 is how these games came out on my tv back in the day

[Anonymous No.2016782]

>>2016493
It depends on the video output timings of the individual console / video mode. Within a line, analog video is completely continuous, so a console could output any number of pixels in any amount of time (within reason) and thus get any aspect ratio. For example, I could scan out a line of pixels across the whole nominal active line, or I could wait a while and then scan them out much faster (creating a pillarboxed image).

The width of a pixel is most precisely defined - given a correctly set-up SDTV - by the dot clock of the video output. Most consoles with 256px-wide video modes will have slightly fat pixels. The Sega Genesis has a 320px-wide mode with slightly tall pixels.
https://pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=Dot_clock_rates

[Anonymous No.2016787]

>CRT
4:3 and only 4:3
>Anything else
I don't know, whatever looks best. If you're emulating then 8:7 gets rid pf scaling artifacts but with a TV, I'm not sure.

[Anonymous No.2016789]

>>2016558
For computers - especially those that had their own monitors - I think it matters less. Everyone had the ability to easily adjust the size of the picture, so you could correct as needed.

As far as VGA goes, Doom is 320x200 and pretty clearly supposed to be 4:3. Abrash calls this out in the Black Book when talking about the advantages/disadvantages of different VGA modes.

[Anonymous No.2016839]

>>2016456
>http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/69097344?page=1
>Someone tells him that developers knew SNES would have produced 4:3 images on CRTs and that they designed games with that in mind
>"They absolutely did not. It seems strange that Nintendo's own developers wouldn't have known to account for this issue, but that's how it is."
This guy's a retard...
He's basically saying that professional developers who worked everyday for years with a console that was intentionally designed to hook up to a 4:3 CRT, tested their games on real console hooked up to a 4:3 CRT(not only on dev kits hooked up to a monitor), saw their games being played by millions people on 4:3 CRT, somehow, for some weird and magical reason he never tries to explain, didn't know their games would have looked 4:3 on 4:3 CRTs.
Not to mention he's basing pretty much ALL of his arguments on what you can observe ONLY on emulators.

[Anonymous No.2016852]

>>2016839
This. Obviously the developers would have known, but some clearly chose to overlook it because it was much easier to design graphics based on square pixels. It shouldn't be too hard for you to use your eyeballs to tell the difference. Also, if you have a good CRT you can adjust your width even if you play on real hardware. Plus remember overscan is a thing (notice all the empty area at the top of those screen shots). Finally, I'm not entirely sure that 4:3 screenshot is actually 4:3 but I'm not going to take the time to check.

[Anonymous No.2016859]

>>2016789
I don't think I ever used the monitor tuning to change a game to 16:10.
In Doom you can see that the portrait is 35x31 and the weapon dial is 10x9 so in that case the pixels are indeed not supposed to be square.

[Anonymous No.2016887]

>>2016146
BUT WHAT IF THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE OVALS?

[Anonymous No.2016892]

>>2016887
Considering that they're exactly 32x32 sprites, I'd assume they went for the technically easiest option in lieu of what was actually correct.

This happens far more than you would think.

[Anonymous No.2016894]

>>2016892
Nah, I'm just being a dummy, man.
I know that they're supposed to be perfect circles.

[Anonymous No.2016897]

>>2016146
4:3 at all times. Even if it makes things "wrong" as they are in your example.

[Anonymous No.2017578]

>>2016897
This. The internal aspect ratio was 8:7 (256x224 resolution normally), but it was *always* expected to be output to a 4:3 screen.

Tiles are always quadratic (8x8 or 16x16 pixels), so they would end up being elongated slightly horizontally, but that's something that was expected by the developers.

Some non-tiling imagery having been created specifically to be with a 4:3 output aspect ratio in mind (pic related) should be enough of evidence (as already suggested by >>2016189).

[Anonymous No.2017738]

>>2016146
Compared to the black bars present on some systems of the day; the aspect ratio difference didn't affect gamers negatively. I doubt anyone outside SNES devs knew about it at the time. People would have been more concerned about composite vs RF. The difference between aspects was never commented on by gaming press or gamers that I ever knew.

I knew that SF2 characters looked stretched/squashed a tad compared to the arcade for example; but SNES only games, nobody would have an idea. 4:3 crt or whatever you had your TV adjusted to for scale; was the defacto standard.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason pixel aspects weren't necessarily corrected for in art was due to the amount of labor required to aspect correct or pre-distort every sprite compared to drawing them in square pixels. You'd actually have to draw them squished - whereas the 8:7 aspect was primarily a video signal bandwidth consideration of the system design; not art.

[Anonymous No.2017739]

>>2016146
newfag testing spoilers

[Anonymous No.2017756]

4:3 always. The games were meant to look like that. The ones that do not take the non-pixel aspect into account, those games are just badly designed. Capcom for example had the artists use special paper with a non-square mesh on it, so they would know how the drawings would line up with the wide 384x224 resolution of the CPS2.

A lot of people have misconceptions about "pixel art" in 16bit console games... you'd have to remember that these machines were most commonly using RF, or at best composite connections. And a lot of games took advantage of that with colour dithering or mesh transparencies.

Using pixel-aspect RGB picture won't give you the same image.

I'm not saying to fall back on RF to "truly enjoy the games" or some such shit - it is just something to keep in mind. About the only machine that came with RGB output on the stock machine, was the Saturn in Europe; and even that caused an uproar as many people still used RF only sets at the time.

So what I'm saying is, do not expect so much from the picture quality and the pixel art of old consoles.

[Anonymous No.2017836]

>>2017738
>I doubt anyone outside SNES devs knew about it at the time.
How would they, given that the internal resolution of the SNES image was not widely publicized? All they knew was how it looked like on the TV screen they hooked it up to.

[Anonymous No.2017845]

>>2017756
Composite ok, but RF was always pleb and shitty due to the random interference the cable picked up, and the resulting random analog artifacts like snowing etc.

[Anonymous No.2017858]

>>2017845
Kids didn't give a shit about rf or composite or know what the fuck the difference was. I used rf until maybe the n64.

[Anonymous No.2017943]

>>2017858
I never used RF, because it was a pain in the ass to screw in. I've always used composite for that reason. 3 color coded spots on the front of the TV is far easier for a kid than some threaded thing on the back that requires moving the TV to insert.

[Anonymous No.2017957]

>>2017943
I dont remember but I dont think I had a tv with composite hookups until the late 90s being a poorfag. I only had rf for a while.

[Anonymous No.2017986]

>>2017578
>The internal aspect ratio was 8:7 (256x224 resolution normally)

This is a mistake I also used to make. Internally, pixels are nothing more than numbers in an array. They don't have shape. If you assume they're perfectly square, then yes, they are disposed to compose an 8:7 image, but the console always displayed them on a 720x480/576 space an modulated them not to be square, but to fit in the entire scanning area. The tube makes its own job to stretch the image so you see the screen with a 4:3 proportion.

[Anonymous No.2017991]

>>2017957
I think the first composite tv I had was maybe mid 90's? between 93-97 somewhere. late 90's would have been the first TV with S-Video for me. Though I've never used s-video until this year actually. My A/V switch box has an S-Video out, so I hooked it up using that just for shits n' giggles. no quality difference though, since the consoles themselves are still hooked up via composite.

[Anonymous No.2017995]

>>2017991
I didn't get a TV in my bedroom with composite until fucking 2006. Any TV before that was strictly RF only, and the one TV with composite and S-video was for downstairs.

[Anonymous No.2017997]

>>2017957
yeah. when i was a kid (im from the united states), my family didnt have a tv w/ those RCA jacks until about 96. we werent the only ones either. then it seemed after that the video standard moved past svideo, straight to component YPrBr, then only recently; hdmi

[Anonymous No.2017998]

>>2017756
Your post is so full of assumptions it hurts.

[Anonymous No.2018001]

>>2017991
I know that feel. Until I bought a new TV in college (the lovely CRT to my immediate left and still in service), every TV in my house (and that one year in the dorm)--and thus every console I ever had up to that point--had solely RF. Composite cables seemed foreign to me.

[Anonymous No.2018005]

>>2017998
At least he's bringing something to this, and honestly he doesn't sound far off. Regardless of the internal resolution, TVs were 4:3 at the time. There was no 8:7. For all the "way it was intended" mantras chanted in /vr/, I don't understand how this of all things is disputed.

[Anonymous No.2018020]

Is this a troll thread? CRTs don't have pixels they have magnets and radiation and phosphors. Learn to science.

[Anonymous No.2018023]

>>2017836
Are you serious? Devs had access to fucking everything regarding the system they worked with. Where would be the good in not telling them the number of pixels they could use? Even if for some crazy reason they left out the resolution on the developing manuals (and they didn't), they would have found out on their own.

>>2018005
Except he's not even talking about 4:3 after the first sentence. From then I only read composite/rf muddy muddy pixel art something, I didn't even know where he was getting at, but I can smell something is up when I read "Using pixel-aspect RGB picture won't give you the same image."

[Anonymous No.2018029]

>>2018023
Still bringing something to the table. All you brought is "you're dumb!"

[Anonymous No.2018030]

>>2018020
no you.

[Anonymous No.2018047]

>>2018029
The way I see it, if you're going to bring something you're not completely sure of you should at least have the decency to sound a little more subjective, instead of using the imperative tone of a fucking text book. Truth is there are many variables and layers of what a huge number of developers had in mind. There's just no right way to display something.

When developers did pixel art on their workstations, they were doing the same exact job we could do on paint using LCDs. I don't accept some arbitrary statements about whatever-bit pixel art.

[Anonymous No.2018063]

>>2018047
If you know more than the other guy, bring it to the table instead of crying from the sidelines. Otherwise kindly fuck off.

[Anonymous No.2018137]

>>2017836
You're correct that "internal resolution" was not widely publicized. Mainly because it didn't exist until someone made that term up years later.

[Anonymous No.2018223]

>>2018023
>Are you serious? Devs had access to fucking everything regarding the system they worked with.
He was clearly referring to "anyone outside SNES devs", not to the devs themselves. An assumption a developer would not know the pixel dimensions of the system he's developing for is obviously ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.2018237]

>>2017756
>And a lot of games took advantage of that with colour dithering or mesh transparencies.
That'S complete bollocks. Dithering does not need a shitty cable or similar, It's an optical illusion.

[Anonymous No.2018334]

>>2018137
http://zsnes-docs.sourceforge.net/html/gui.htm says:

>Please note that the internal resolution of the SNES is 256x224. Certain special high-resolution modes can produce up to 512x448 resolution. You may notice that the internal resolution has an 8:7 aspect ratio. SNES video output is not intended to be viewed at this aspect ratio, however. The 8:7 video signal would normally be scaled to a more-typical 4:3 aspect ratio when viewed on a television.

ZSNES certainly isn't the most accurate SNES emulator around (quite to the contrary), but that description happens to be pretty accurate.

Also, dunno what issue you have with the term "internal resolution". It's called that way because that's the resolution at which the SNES renders and outputs image frames. The "external resolution", i.e. the resolution a stage beyond the console or emulation core uses may be entirely different.

[Anonymous No.2018356]

>>2018237
then why does the dithering on a Genesis game look like absolute shit when it's emulated or played on a screen with a higher resolution than 480?

Protip: Because the devs knew that especially an RF switch (which was most common back then) on a CRT would blur it to shit so you couldn't tell how god awful it was.

[Anonymous No.2018384]

>>2018356
Super protip: the genesis composite/RF digitally interpolates adjacent pixels by doing a slight gaussian pass so that it blurs things a little (giving results like newborn colors out of nothing) before actually being encoded into chroma and luma. It happened no matter how strong the signal, RGB just simply didn't go through all that stuff and instead just picked up the video buffer and got it ready for sending.

TG-16 and SNES also didn't do jack shit to their outputs so dithering patterns were extremely noticeable even with RF.

Also a Sega Genesis output, no matter the crispiness is not by any means "god awful". Please kill yourself and go back to >>>/v/

[Anonymous No.2018393]

>>2018384
Genesis is pretty bad. T-16 I don't know much about, but SNES had the advantage of being able to push more colors on screen. Yes, dithering was noticeable, but not nearly as stark. Even with "proper" output on a crt the dithering on Genesis is out of control. For me it causes the image to look like a jumbled mess of pixels, rather than an actual, pleasing image. But none of that really matters. The point I was trying to make was that dithering on the Genesis doesn't work that well, and the developers surely realised that it would be less noticeable through the more conventional (at the time) display methods.

>go back to >>>/v/

I just might. I was here from the beginning but I ditched /vr/ long ago because you guys were worse than /v/. I came back to give it another chance. Nope. Still whiny little fuckwits.

I can't believe it. Atari, NES, SNES, MS, and Genesis... These are the systems I grew up playing. You guys can't seem to just play the games and enjoy them. You're always fussing about muh hardware and muh authenticity and endlessly regurgitating tech specs for the sake of your retro prowess.

[Anonymous No.2018396]

>>2018393
Did you even read what I posted. Yeah some games tried too hard to use the undithering to their advantage, but you're being melodramatic. Maybe you should know that the Genesis was the only 16-bit console to output RGB the way God spoken, and from the get go. 64 colors (more with hardware tricks) are fine for me. Are you some self-entitled prick?

[Anonymous No.2018402]

>>2018356
>look like absolute shit when it's emulated or played on a screen with a higher resolution than 480?
That's just your own dubious opinion at best.
Look at the dithering on the PC-88. It's far more pronounced than on other systems and it used analog or even digital RGB.

[Anonymous No.2018403]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbfTM6SoPI

Is this game played at the correct AR here? Looks very weird given that it' higher than it is wide.

[Anonymous No.2018404]

>>2016460
True, but I'm actually interested in this subject, while I normally scroll past filter threads

[Anonymous No.2018405]

>>2018402
PC-88 also had composite outputs, and they supposedly looked like the right side of that pic, with some more artifacts thrown in.

[Anonymous No.2018408]

>>2018405
There's still a lot of dithering on the right while the text is barely readable.

[Anonymous No.2018414]

>>2018403
Clearly not, given how squeezed the moon in the background is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbfTM6SoPI&t=19m6s

Too bad most folks who record gameplay videos don't give a shit about getting things like AR correct, like that dude there.

[Anonymous No.2018416]

>>2018414
Yeah but look how beautifully square all these tiles are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbfTM6SoPI&t=3m41s

Square pixels are all that matter!

[Anonymous No.2018417]

>>2018408
That's because it's second-hand dithering, generated by creating macroblocks of three different colors in a row (1 0 2 0 1 0 2 0 1) in an attempt to push even more colors out of the screen. It's like dithering at half the resolution so it can't really be dealt with without making the text unintelligible (it's actually pretty okay in your screens.

By the way, some time ago I read stuff about taking composite signal from the horizontal sync pin of the Genesis video to get an RGB like picture, with visible dithering, without actually going RGB. People should try it out.

[Anonymous No.2018423]

>>2018417
>three different colors in a row (1 0 2 0 1 0 2 0 1)

Correction, I meant various color combinations in a row, which could include stuff like 1 0 0 1 0 0 or the aforementioned 1 0 2 0 1 0 2 0

For more information look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither

[Anonymous No.2018424]

>>2018416
(You're probably trolling or just being sarcastic, but anyway for those who might take your reply seriously...)

A 16x16 pixel tile is always square if the pixels are square, and isn't if they aren't, duh. That's unavoidable unless you started to use non-quadratic tiles (which would be obviously extremely impractical).

The proof to look for is larger graphics elements which are expected to be a certain shape, like round (moon in Chrono Trigger or that Castlevania game, cogs like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbfTM6SoPI&t=21m8s)) or equilateral triangle (Triforce in ALttP intro animation).

[Anonymous No.2018429]

>>2018424
It was total sarcasm, but I've gotta say those cogs look a lot more round than the moon at 19:06 so I'm not sure your point holds there.

[Anonymous No.2018430]

Map of Britannia from Ultima 6. This is generated from the PC-VGA version but the SNES port used the same assets.

[Anonymous No.2018432]

>>2018429
If that's the case then whoever did graphics for that game was being inconsistent.

[Anonymous No.2018438]

>>2018430
Ultima 6 cloth map.
As you can tell the proportions are identical to the square pixels of the computer generated map. In fact this map was derived from it as the coast lines and the like match up but it's also in line with the hand drawn maps of the other parts.

[Anonymous No.2018439]

>>2018432
Or maybe they just said fuck this we're only going to stretch the moon because it's your focus point and then we'll solve the rest of the sprite work with the usual 8x8 tilemap.

[Anonymous No.2018440]

>>2018432
>>2018439
Maybe they had different artists for different layers. The background guy wanted the image to be 4:3 while the sprite guy kept it at 1:1 for ease of work.

[Anonymous No.2018450]

>>2018430
>This is generated from the PC-VGA version but the SNES port used the same assets.
A PC has square pixels. The alternative for the SNES port was to redo all the map graphics, which obviously nobody bothered to do.

[Anonymous No.2018472]

>>2018450
Not necessarily, see >>2016789.

[Anonymous No.2018486]

>>2018472
Oh, ok. There were indeed games in 320x200 and 640x400 resolution meant to be played in a 4:3 AR. But here the pixels are elongated vertically, not horizontally.

[Anonymous No.2018495]

>>2016146

It looks the fucking same. I'm sick of these threads, play the game that feels most comfortable to you. If you want to use a filter, use a filter. If you like scanlines, enable them. If you spend the entire time messing around in options trying to please a bunch of neckbeards, you're not going to enjoy the actual game.

[Anonymous No.2018513]

>>2018334
Stating a fact about the origins the term "internal resolution" isn't having an issue with it. Emulators can can an internal resolution of they want. The SNES just has a plain old resolution. No internal/external.

[Anonymous No.2018561]

>>2018513
In the case of an actual SNES the external resolution is that of the TV set/monitor the console outputs video to.

[Anonymous No.2018574]

>>2018561
No, that's the resolution of the TV set/monitor. The SNES doesn't change depending on what you plug it in to.

[Anonymous No.2018589]

[Anonymous No.2018630]

>>2018574
Nobody said that the SNES would change. The TV set resolution if the external resolution of the coupled system consisting of the SNES console and the TV set it's hooked up to. The resolution of the frames rendered by the SNES and output to the TV set is the internal resolution having an AR of 8:7, while the external resolution is the resolution of the actual display device (in this case the TV set), normally with an AR of 4:3.

In the case of an emulator the internal resolution is the resolution of the frames output by the emulation core (which is exactly the same as in the case of a real SNES), while the external resolution can be set in the emulator's video options and determines the resolution of the image output by the emulator to the OS/video card and visible to the user.

[Anonymous No.2018638]

>>2018589
OK, but why is the lowest portion of the 8:7 image cut off?

[Anonymous No.2018693]

Guys... Guys... I have a theory, Guys... Listen to my theory. My theory is that back then Japanese people were a little bit thinner than Westerners so they figured that their games being 12.5% wider would make the characters more appealing to us...

And now that Westerners are super fat, all the big fat casuals further stretch the games out to 16:9 so the characters proportions still look normal to them.

[Anonymous No.2018697]

>>2016208
Newfags can't.

[Anonymous No.2018702]

>>2018693

my sides

[Anonymous No.2018703]

This thread reminds me how Akiman recently mentioned on Twitter that during the development of Street Fighter 2 he actually designed special graph paper with rectangular cells for drawing sprite lineart on so as to account for the CPS systems' pixel aspect ratio.

[Anonymous No.2018743]

>>2018630
Nice word play but no, the SNES doesn't have and internal and external resolution no matter how hard you want to believe it.

[Anonymous No.2018782]

>>2018743
What about

>the coupled system consisting of the SNES console and the TV set it's hooked up to.

is so hard to understand?

A complete functional SNES system consists of both the console *and* an output device (like a TV set). The SNES itself only has what's referred to as the "internal" resolution, but it's useless without a display device, which has its own resolution (which in turn determines the effective output aspect ratio). An emulator even more obviously has an external resolution which is totally independent from the internal resolution the emulation core outputs (and which you can set according to your preference)..

I'm not going to explain this again, if you still cannot comprehend it, it's your problem.

[Anonymous No.2018825]

>let's render our games at an aspect ratio that no one uses, thereby making all our games distorted.

full
fucking
retarded

[Anonymous No.2018826]

Who really cares about this? Seriously..

[Anonymous No.2018829]

>>2016146
What is the SNES's native resolution in pixels?

[Anonymous No.2018843]

>>2018826
People interested in video technology?

[Anonymous No.2018848]

>>2016146

Who in the hell had an 8:7 display back then? Has anyone ever actually even made an 8:7 display?

They played on 4:3 displays, so they should be played at that aspect ratio.

The issue with squares/circles is just an oversight by the developers. They didn't think anyone would notice or care, and it was just easier to make circles in development and have them be stretched a bit on the display vs, creating various shapes that when stretched they would look like perfect circles.

[Anonymous No.2018856]

>>2018063
>>2018029
From what backwards ass place did you come from ? Pointing out the bullshit someone said is preferable to pulling shit out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.2018913]

When emulating, I play SNES games in 8:7 because I think they look better that way.

[Anonymous No.2019049]

>>2017738
SF2 on SNES is letterboxed, and a lot of people bitched about it at the time. But the letterboxing is because of some sprite limitation, not because of any aspect ratio differences.

[Anonymous No.2019057]

>>2017943
You are either younger than a lot of us, or you were rich/lucky. I didn't start using composite until about 1993, and I was a really early adopter.

[Anonymous No.2019058]

>>2017986
This post needs more attention.

[Anonymous No.2019060]

>>2017998
He's more right than wrong. I used to worship at the altar of RGB as well, but over time I've started playing over composite again and I feel that games really do look better that way.

[Anonymous No.2019071]

>>2019057
>tfw I bought my own TV with composite in 1989 with newspaper route money

[Anonymous No.2019080]

>>2018703
Makes a lot of sense, and reinforces the notion that 4:3 is always right.

The games which didn't take this distortion into consideration are simply in error. You can "fix" this error if you want and play through the game, but in my opinion I prefer to play the games from a historic perspective, and that includes the flaws.

[Anonymous No.2019082]

>>2019071
I didn't, but that's not a far fetched idea.

[Anonymous No.2019134]

>>2018829

For most games it's 256x224 (512x448 interlaced). The PPU can output higher but only used at less taxing scenes like menus. They're all odd aspect ratios.

[Anonymous No.2019152]

4:3 on a 15khz CRT.

[Anonymous No.2019189]

>>2019152
NTSC is 60 Hz and PAL 50.

[Anonymous No.2019192]

>>2019189
I thought this was the "retro" board. You people really don't know shit, huh?

[Anonymous No.2019235]

>>2019152
So... just about every CRT out there except for PC monitors?

[Anonymous No.2019297]

>>2017998
Not assumptions. I used RF for so long, when we managed to hack together an ad hoc composite cable for my C64 with soldering iron, that alone was breathtaking.

Consoles just didn't use s-video or RGB back in the day. They used RF almost everywhere, sometimes composite if you were lucky. And yes, games did take advantage of that. The only places that had RGB video were arcades, and they had machines which were entire generations ahead of consoles anyway.

>>2018237
>That'S complete bollocks. Dithering does not need a shitty cable or similar, It's an optical illusion.

NTSC has half the color resolution than the luminance resolution. That, on top with dot crawl, is enough to make dithering look transparent, usually with some rainbow banding. The waterfall in Sonic 1 looked holy shit beautiful because of that, but this is also how Streets of Rage 2 did transparent fog on the alien house, or light effects in the bar. But Super Mario World also had transparent water in like the 4th stage with the same technique.

>>2018023
>Devs had access to fucking everything regarding the system they worked with

Now THAT is an assumption very far away from the truth.

[Anonymous No.2019315]

>>2017943
>>2017957
>>2017991
Here in Europe, we had late 80s TVs already coming with RGB Scart next to RF.

Having a Saturn and a N64 with Scart connectors was fucking insanely beautiful, after coming from RF on the SNES and Megadrive.

[Anonymous No.2019318]

>>2019297
And all that is completely unnecessary for a dithering effect to work.

[Anonymous No.2019332]

Devs worked with square pixels because it was much easier and they didn't give a shit about sprites getting stretched to 4:3. Actually nobody really cared. It isn't just SNES. NES, PC-Engine, among others.

Only a few games were designed with the "4:3 stretching" in mind. Chrono Trigger moon image, etc.

With Genesis it's funny because the opposite happened: The image would get squished to 4:3 on NTSC since the resolution of 320x224 (for most games at least) was wider. So in a Native image, Rings in Sonic are perfect circles, while on a TV they're squished. On PAL it gets even more wider instead. Weird shit.

So just use what you think is right or looks better, I guess. I go with 4:3 because that's how games were played back then and they just look weird being "thin".

[Anonymous No.2019385]

>>2019315
>N64 with Scart connectors was fucking insanely beautiful
Saturn, SNES, MD look good with RGB, but the PAL N64 doesn`t output RGB or s-video. Even the NTSC N64 with RGB mod had a bad output signal. It`s like Nintendo was thinking, that the games need to look even more blurred.

[Anonymous No.2019413]

>>2019385
It was a NTSC import unit, either American or Japanese. The Mario 64 cart was in English. We also had Waverace and Doom 64 for it (baller intro scene). That's about all I remember from it, and it had a SCART cable.

Actually the cable was very finicky and did not give picture at all, only sound, until we realized that we just couldn't push it properly in the socket - possibly because it had all pins in the connector, while the Saturn cable only had the pins present that it used. I don't know if the machine did RGB or composite over that cable, it could have very well been composite only.

[Anonymous No.2019414]

>>2019134
> 256x224 (512x448 interlaced)
Why would the horizontal resolution double?

[Anon No.2019426]

>>2019332
I don't remember the NTSC Genesis being able to push out 320x224.

[Anonymous No.2019429]

>>2019426
Virtually every game is 320x224. Most of the games that play in 256x224 are ports from the SNES.

[Anonymous No.2019434]

>>2019429
...likewise, ports from the Genesis to the SNES had to be cropped accordingly.

[Anon No.2019446]

>>2019429
Yeah, but I thought the 224p was only PAL thing.

[Anonymous No.2019467]

>>2019332
The above mentioned graph paper anecdote shows that some devs did care about it. Although in that particular hardware's case, the screen stretching is rather extreme (384 x 224 pixels displayed at 4:3), so if they hadn't accounted for it everything would have looked really thin.

[Anonymous No.2019472]

>>2019414

Looks like I changed my post wrong when I originally just going to post all the available display modes.

[Anonymous No.2019482]

>>2019446
It depends on the console. NTSC Megadrive has 224 lines, PAL Megadrive has 240 lines that you can use for graphics, plus you can fill some extra overscan area with a single colour.

Saturn can do 224 or 240 lines for NTSC, and do 224, 240, or 256 lines for PAL. Plus single colour overscan (that only maybe two games used).

Both of them can also double all that when using interlaced modes.

Also, the Megadrive had a 256x224 mode too. I'm not up to date on the advantages of that mode. Some notable games to use it were the Sonic 2 special stages, Beavis & Butthead, Keio Flying Squadron, and I think Snatcher.

[Anonymous No.2019485]

So where does CPS-2 games that had 12:7 pixel ratio fit into all this?

[Anonymous No.2019514]

>>2019485
They're supposed to be displayed at 4:3, no ifs ands or buts about it. See the graph paper anecdote above. They specifically drew everything with the 4:3 display ratio in mind.

[Anonymous No.2019530]

>>2018486
There's also plenty of other PC video modes with nonsquare pixels - both tall and fat. Boot up Quake on a real SVGA system and you can select between tons of them.

[Anonymous No.2019539]

>>2019482
>Also, the Megadrive had a 256x224 mode too. I'm not up to date on the advantages of that mode.
There were none. It was possible because the VDP had to also be compatible with the SMS VDP, which ran in 256px width. The whole thing just slows down when you switch to 32H mode - less sprite rendering, slower DMA, less pixel resolution. If you're short on VRAM, I guess it allows you to fill the screen with less data - but there's enough VRAM to fill the whole screen with unique data even in 40H mode.

[Anonymous No.2019540]

>>2019297
Please see >>2018384 because all you're doing is making me mad.

>But Super Mario World also had transparent water in like the 4th stage with the same technique.

No, SMW just moved the water so it looked like empty pixels and water were overlapping. The effect is completely in engine and works on RGB.

>Consoles just didn't use s-video or RGB back in the day

Wow.

[Anonymous No.2019546]

>>2019429
>boot up a Genesis game
>see the fat Sega logo
herewego.jpg

[Anonymous No.2019556]

>>2019540
>>Consoles just didn't use s-video or RGB back in the day
>Wow.
How many kids do you know who bought RGB SCART cables, even when they were available? RGB is basically nonexistant in America, and until PlayStation, so was s-video. Even in Europe, they shipped the consoles with a composite cable and a SCART adapter block at most.

[Anonymous No.2019561]

>>2018384
>the genesis composite/RF digitally interpolates adjacent pixels

[Anonymous No.2019616]

>>2019561
>RGB is basically nonexistant in America

That's your problem. SMS, Genesis and SNES had RGB. That's three consoles, end of story.

>>2019561
How about you prove me wrong by capping a composite screen? I know my stuff. Genesis composite output is "muddy" because it was intended to undither patterns since the beginning. In fact the whole "muddiness" is disabled on 256x224 mode. Is it magic?

[Anonymous No.2019620]

>>2019385
For whatever reason, Nintendo decided to make the VI component of the N64 always interpolate the image to a width of 640 pixels, no matter what resolution the game was running at internally. This is why most N64 games look blurry. AFAIK the only exceptions are games that had a hi-res or pseudo-hires mode (Factor 5 games, BOSS games, Perfect Dark, Turok 3, etc), which therefore no longer needed to be scaled/interpolated.

[Anonymous No.2019637]

>>2019616
>That's your problem. SMS, Genesis and SNES had RGB. That's three consoles, end of story.
You said "had". He said "used".

>>2019616
>How about you prove me wrong by capping a composite screen?
I'll prove you wrong by directing you to the video output stage of the hardware itself. The R, G, and B lines coming from the DAC are fed into the color encoder with no "digital" processing of any kind. The output is blurry because they used a cheap encoder. 32H mode does not "disable" any kind of filtering - the picture is slightly clearer because the dot clock is lower.

Your argument is additionally absurd because the 32X has its own color encoder, which is notably higher-quality than that in the Genesis, even though it is used whether you're playing Genesis or 32X games.

I'm trying to dig out my composite cable to give you some good comparisons through a professional decoder. Moment.

[Anonymous No.2019663]

>>2019637
>You said "had". He said "used".
I know plenty of people who did that because the stores themselves bundled an RGB cable (be it official or third party). My father got me one because some of his coworkers also had a son and knew that you could only get the best signal going RGB

.
>color encoder with no "digital" processing of any kind
The color encoder is pretty digital enough for me, even if it spits out analog signals.
>32H mode does not "disable" any kind of filtering - the picture is slightly clearer because the dot clock is lower.
It does though, since you can also get a clear picture out of 40H with composite, by going for the sync pin.
Since 32X has its own color encoder, it's been programmed to do the same filtering the stock Genesis one does. You just see minor artifacts.

Take a snap off the ground on Sky Sanctuary, I beg of you. That's like dithering's galore. I'm going to enjoy this so much.

[Anonymous No.2019676]

>>2016146
I don't see why you wouldn't emulate ANY game at its native resolution. Anything else would make it look stretched or blurry.

[Anonymous No.2019679]

I love memes

[Anonymous No.2019712]

>>2018782
I understand you're making shit up in an desperate attempt to justify your made up shit.
Also, how does your imaginary "complete functional SNES system" even function without a cart or controllers?

[Anonymous No.2019721]

>>2019712
Just ignore him. It should be obvious here:
>but it's useless without a display device, which has its own resolution (which in turn determines the effective output aspect ratio)
that he has no clue what he's saying

[Anonymous No.2019725]

[Anonymous No.2019731]

>>2019725
Nuh huh, you have to take it from the left side of the screen, and I need to see the solid green/black dithering just under, let Knux lower the bridge.

[Anonymous No.2019734]

[Anonymous No.2019738]

>>2019731
oh come on do you know what a pain it was to set up a fucking extron for this shit

i'm done

peace

[Anonymous No.2019740]

>>2019738
Sorry m8, I'm going to do the pics, but you have to promise you're going to post them anywhere this stupid argument about dot crawl and cheap encoding takes off.

[Anonymous No.2019746]

>>2019663
>Since 32X has its own color encoder, it's been programmed to do the same filtering the stock Genesis one does. You just see minor artifacts.
Gonna need a source on this one. There's nothing in the 32X - either by examination or documentation - that indicates this in any way.

[Anonymous No.2019757]

>>2019740
>argument about dot crawl
What? The Genesis line period is an even multiple of its chroma period.

[Anonymous No.2019765]

>>2019746
Steve Snake, former developer for SEGA, studied the in and outs of the Megadrive so he could make the first accurate emulator ever before someone else took on the challenge. It's accurate down to the undithering process the

>>2019757
Yeah I was quoting >>2019297 with his
>That, on top with dot crawl, is enough to make dithering look transparent
The two things are completely unrelated.

[Anonymous No.2019767]

>>2019765
>It's accurate down to the undithering process the
color encoder was programmed to do.

[Anonymous No.2019784]

>>2019767
Gonna need a source on that. By all indications, the chroma encoder is just a regular off-the-shelf part, that tries to band-limit the chroma and luma as NTSC requires but nothing more.

[Anonymous No.2019897]

>>2019784
Here is your source. Forgive picture quality and for bending the second.

See the dithered pattern when the picture starts? If you're going to average two pixels at a time, you don't have a starting couple for the first column of pixels (the border, at best), so this little quirk gives away the trick they supposedly used. Also notice the spot where two pixels are the exact same, if it really was cheap encoding they would have been affected if only a little, but perfectly logical when you're trying to interpolate two exact same colors.

Will we finally end the argument?

[Anonymous No.2019904]

>>2019897
>but perfectly logical
*but they're perfectly logical

[Anonymous No.2019942]

>>2018913
You are clearly delusional.

[Anonymous No.2019953]

>>2018848
Often perfect circles were actually made with a 4:3 effective AR in mind, see >>2017578 and >>2018414.

[Anonymous No.2019970]

>>2019721
Apparently you're the clueless one. It should be obvious that the display device's resolution determines the effective aspect ratio. It's also obvious that an emulator is NOT locked to output image at "muh one and only SNES true resolution".

Emulator authors have introduced some terms with good reason, but some jackasses on an imageboard seem to know better no matter how one tries to explain it to them.

[Anonymous No.2019996]

>>2019414
That info isn't quite correct. The SNES can output video at four different resolutions, with PAL having a higher vertical resolution (which is not used in most games though):

NTSC SNES:
256x224 (normal)
512x224 (horizontal hires, e.g. Secret of Mana menus)
256x448 (vertical interlace, substantial flickering, only a handful games used ever used this)
512x448 (hires & interlace)

PAL SNES:
256x239 (normal)
512x239 (hires)
256x478 (interlace)
512x478 (hires & interlace)

[Anonymous No.2020005]

>>2019996
I don't know where you got that 239 from, SMW PAL has 240 vertical pixels, you can count them.

[Anonymous No.2020015]

>>2020005
http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/Backgrounds

Search for your 240, and then for 239. Another smartass who tries to know better than people who actually know this stuff.

[Anonymous No.2020016]

>>2019616
>SMS, Genesis and SNES had RGB. That's three consoles, end of story.

None of them had any fucking cables for it back in the 90s though, not counting the one single French Megadrive R.V.B. model or the Japanese Super Famicom RGB21 cable.

The first console that came with RGB Scart out of the box was the Saturn in Europe, and that caused a major fucking uproar because people didn't have compatible TVs at the time; they had to package RF connectors in there for the machines to sell in the UK.

[Anonymous No.2020023]

>>2020005
Your emulator might use 240 instead 239 for convenience, but the emulation core never actually renders one of the lines.

[Anonymous No.2020027]

>>2020015
>>2020023
Are you really making such a huge deal about ONE fucking pixel?

[Anonymous No.2020030]

>>2020016
>None of them had any fucking cables for it back in the 90s though
That's some cool theory you got there. Mind proving it?

>The first console that came with RGB Scart out of the box
I'm talking about RGB support, not cables being included in the package.

>people didn't have compatible TVs at the time
Nigga I had/have plenty of TVs from the 80's/90's and every single one of them had SCART inputs. Before the 80's ones broke I could just plug in an RGB cable and get it to work with absolutely no issues at amazing quality. Maybe it's just an UK related issue, I don't know.

[Anonymous No.2020038]

>>2020027
I gave the correct number, i.e. 239. The other dude went "nooo it's muh 240". So those who know better should adapt to those who don't these days, or what were you trying to say?

[Anonymous No.2020046]

>>2020015
Yeah I double checked and it's effectively 239, I guess that makes me the faggot. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.2020048]

>>2020030
>That's some cool theory you got there. Mind proving it?

Find me an official Scart RGB cable for any console before the Saturn, that was sold and commonly used in more than 1 country.

The Master System and the Megadrive 1 had French versions that omitted all output and had special cables with a small PCB inside; sold only in France. Super Famicom had a RGB21 cable in Japan. Those were all limited to 1 country.

Saturn was the first to widely use RGB Scart in ALL OF EUROPE. Not in just one country, but as a standard plug for the entire continent.

[Anonymous No.2020051]

>>2020048
Bro my SNES had RGB cables, I don't know what you're smoking.

[Anonymous No.2020078]

>>2020048
Even if official cables for MD were kinda scarce (100% sure they exist, saw an ebay auction), third party/handmade cables were pretty easy to find in specialized stores. Maybe people in the UK just didn't give a fuck. But you can't say TVs weren't compatible.

[Anonymous No.2020093]

>>2020051
>Bro my SNES had RGB cables, I don't know what you're smoking.

Please post a picture of this cable, I've never seen an official PAL Scart cable for the SNES, nor seen it mentioned in the manuals either.

>>2020078
Official MD and Master System rgb scart cables were released in France only and had an entire little adapter attached because the console itself was missing some necessary components. I think they probably made such cables because they didn't want to get a Secam encoder, so they just removed a ton of components from the inside and used the RGB lines with a small adaptor. Cost cutting measure, not a "hey lets allow all the frogs to see individual pixels" move.

Third party cables may have existed but the machines themselves did not come with them; they all officially came with RF or at best composite. That is what they used in all the world, that is what game creators had to keep in mind... the few that did, anyway.

[Anonymous No.2020106]

>>2020093
Actually, nevermind, found the SNES Peritel cable here:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3203.0

It was another France-only item, like the Master System and Mega Drive Peritel cables.

[Anonymous No.2020125]

>>2020093
>Third party cables may have existed but the machines themselves did not come with them; they all officially came with RF or at best composite.

I never argued this.

>>2020106
I saw this cable around, it may have been imported, as were the other ones. But saying nobody but France had access to RGB is pretty presumptuous.

[Anonymous No.2020647]

>>2019721
I was hoping to reason with him but it seems like he's experienced some sort of cult like brain washing. Even after acknowledging that it's a term created for emulators he still can't accept the facts. I guess it's best to take your advice and just ignore him like any other nut who comes knocking on my door selling crazy.

[Anonymous No.2020667]

>>2019530
Isn't SVGA normally 640x480?

[Anonymous No.2020669]

>>2020667
SVGA normally refers to 800x600.

[Anonymous No.2021149]

>>2019996
Dragon Quest 1 and 2 uses 256x239

[Anonymous No.2021187]

>>2020125
>But saying nobody but France had access to RGB is pretty presumptuous.

I'm saying nobody worldwide had access to RGB, unless it was either in France (where Peritel was the standard), in Japan (RGB21), or in the arcades. Up until the 32bit era started, when RGB Scart cables became more popular, sometimes even the standard.

[Anonymous No.2021228]

>>2021187
>I'm saying nobody worldwide had access to RGB
>Europe is "nobody worlwide"
Keep it up, 'Murika.

[Anonymous No.2021257]

>>2021228
France alone is not Europe either (although I know they like to think so).

[Anonymous No.2021269]

>>2021257
I'm not talking about France. Most of europe had SCART (Peritel is just the French name for SCART).

[Anonymous No.2021307]

>>2021269
>I'm not talking about France. Most of europe had SCART (Peritel is just the French name for SCART).

Yes, but rgb scart cables were released in France only, they had extra hardware inside, and worked with special French versions of consoles. It wasn't until the 32bit era that consoles had official rgb cables Europe wide.

[Anonymous No.2021330]

>>2021307
>they had extra hardware inside
Except they didn't.
>special French versions of consoles
Pretty much the only PAL console that doesn't output RGB natively is the NES.
I live in Spain and I own PAL cosoles, I know my shit.

[Anonymous No.2021348]

>>2021330
Okay, now we are just going in circles.

>Except they didn't.

The official RGB cables for SNES, Master System, and Mega Drive all had extra hardware inside. Look up the thread that was linked above for what is inside the SNES cable, or google for Megadrive Adapteur R.V.B. for the MD/SMS one. The French versions of the consoles were also modified and had some components removed (RF adapter for example).

>Pretty much the only PAL console that doesn't output RGB natively is the NES.

I know that, I'm European too. What I'm saying is, again: It wasn't until the 32bit era that consoles had official rgb cables Europe wide.

The console being RGB capable is one thing, official support for RGB solution is something entirely different.

[Anonymous No.2021352]

>>2021348
>The official RGB cables for SNES, Master System, and Mega Drive all had extra hardware inside.
Wow, I really didn't know that. Mine only have a couple of resistors and capacitors, and the picture looks great. What was that extra hardware for? Converting the signal to SECAM?

[Anonymous No.2021371]

>>2021352
The machines didn't output proper RGB. They were missing a lot of components necessary for the signal to be standard/stable, which is what is in that box. Third party cables are just following one guide written by a person with no knowledge in electronics, who managed to "get it work" on his set. They can in fact cause damage to some sets since they are sending a signal with different properties.

SECAM is just another modulation standard like PAL or NTSC, which doesn't matter at all since you are using RGB.

I think the French console versions used RGB because it was cheaper to do that than getting a SECAM video encoder. Take a look at the French version of the Master System: it is missing the entire video encoder IC, as well as the RF modulator - it outputs RGB straight from the vdp itself, hence the need for the extra hardware in the cable.

[Anonymous No.2021379]

>>2021371
>They can in fact cause damage to some sets
I've had a custom made SCART cable for my megadrive since '94 or so (got it made from an electronics repair shop) and it hasn't damaged any sets, neither CRT or LCD.
French consoles had to output RGB because of some French legislation stating that all video equipment in France should output RGB for proper interoperability.

[Anonymous No.2021381]

you guys are going to hate me for this, but I prefer to stretch my old games to fit the screen (16:9) than play with black borders

My brain adjusts to it and it doesn't even look weird to me any more.

[Anonymous No.2021393]

>>2021379
>I've had a custom made SCART cable for my megadrive since '94 or so (got it made from an electronics repair shop) and it hasn't damaged any sets, neither CRT or LCD.

can != will

[Anonymous No.2021395]

>>2021381
0/10

[Anonymous No.2022120]

>>2020667
SuperVGA refers to any video card like a VGA but with higher-resolution modes.

[Anonymous No.2022129]

>>2019897
That image shows that there's a low-pass happening. It doesn't show that it was designed by Sega for their system, nor that it's off in 32H mode, nor that it's anything but a typical composite encoding process.

Also, your RGB setup clearly has some severe overshoot problems.

[Anonymous No.2022138]

>>2019970
>It should be obvious that the display device's resolution determines the effective aspect ratio.
Stop talking out your ass. Aspect ratio has nothing to do with resolution.

>1024x768 16:9 PDP display
>960x1080 16:9 DLP display
>720x480 4:3 DVD video

Additionally, CRT monitors do not have an addressable horizontal resolution at all. They have an effective resolution governed by the physical characteristics of the display, but all the electronics are continuous horizontally (unless we're talking about an index tube).

Seriously. Don't come to /vr/ and start spewing shit, because there are real video guys here who will eat you alive.

[Anonymous No.2022160]

>>2021381
>My brain adjusts to it

I don't mind how someone plays their games, but did you think about applying that logic to the black bars?

[Anonymous No.2022218]

>>2022129
>That image shows that there's a low-pass happening.

If you call averaging every pixel with its previous RGB value low-pass, then yes, it is low pass.

>It doesn't show that it was designed by Sega for their system

It's running on a Megadrive, the same effect is applied on every display. Pretty sure it's in the hardware.

>nor that it's off in 32H mode
I tried 32H games and the ditherings are on at all the times, this could pretty much mean SMS games are dependent on this mode and they didn't want to blur those out.

>nor that it's anything but a typical composite encoding process
The fact that I saw a composite signal from the very same console but without the blurring? Also the fact that pic related has the same problem, the first column of pixels being non low-passed whatever, I mean. I made this on Paint.NET in a couple of seconds.

>Also, your RGB setup clearly has some severe overshoot problems.
Overwhat? It's an LCD. I couldn't make a CRT comparison since I don't have professional equipment where you can move the screen, and LCD is far more clear for comparisons anyway.

[Anonymous No.2022274]

>>2022218
>If you call averaging every pixel with its previous RGB value low-pass, then yes, it is low pass.
That's a low-pass, but it's not how the low pass is performed here. The chroma encoder filters out high frequencies before encoding. That's a necessary step for any composite signal.

Here, this is the RGB signal from the Genesis running through a professional encoder. Same exact blur, caused by the encoding process. No artifacts, though.

Again, where did you ever hear that the console averaged adjacent color values? That would give it an effective resolution somewhere around that of the Atari 2600.

[Anonymous No.2022325]

>>2022274
>Here, this is the RGB signal from the Genesis running through a professional encoder.

Yeah right. By that premise every console output should be blurred the fuck out. Even at 256x224.

>The chroma encoder filters out high frequencies before encoding. That's a necessary step for any composite signal.

Low frequencies = signals melting at non-arbitrary distance? Good joke.

>No artifacts, though.

That's debatable. Why don't you try capturing the screen through a card or LCD? Or do you need an aperture grille to prove your argument is better than mine?

>Again, where did you ever hear that the console averaged adjacent color values?

Nintendo interlaced (not as in 480i) its composite signal at every frame to minimize bleeding. It's 1988, and encoding requires specialized hardware to convert signals, we can only exploit that process to do what we want so we gain more colors. They only way (for now) I can prove my theory is that image you quoted and dismissed in unrelated ways.

I want to try something. See you later.

[Anonymous No.2022421]

I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you guys

I have no fucking idea what is going on in this thread right now.

[Anonymous No.2022451]

>>2022274
Why didn't they do something about the scan lines? They ruin the picture.

[Anonymous No.2022571]

>>2022421
200 posts of pure retardation.

[Anonymous No.2022589]

>>2022421
I'm arguing because I'm bored. I know the Genesis inside-out and I'm calling someone on their bullshit.

[Anonymous No.2022686]

>>2022589
>I know the Genesis inside-out

Then I hope you can explain this.

[Anonymous No.2022709]

>>2022686
Oh wow, that middle shot is like some kind of middle ground between composite and RGB.

I like it.

[Anonymous No.2022796]

>>2022686
Is that supposed to be a circle?

[Anonymous No.2022820]

>>2022796
It's PAL 50Hz, graphics are stretched because the vertical resolution is bigger. This is also why you don't see rainbow banding on the waterfalls.

[Anonymous No.2022893]

>>2022160
>I don't mind how someone plays their games, but did you think about applying that logic to the black bars?

Not the same person, but I tried. Nope, never could I stop noticing them, felt really claustrophobic actually.

[Anonymous No.2023727]

>>2022893

Have you tried taping pieces of paper with funny drawings on them on either side of the screen so the letterboxing is covered up?

[Anonymous No.2023858]

>>2023727
lol