/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.1883708]

Am I alone in thinking that the Commander Keen games are kinda mediocre?

[Anonymous No.1883715]

Mine came for free with a Gravis gamepad

[Anonymous No.1883716]

yes, you're the only person on the planet to hold such an opinion.

[Anonymous No.1883720]

compared to console sidescrollers of the time it's shit

but as PC game it's timeless classic

[Anonymous No.1883735]

it's all just trial and error.

[Anonymous No.1883762]

Don't forget it was the first platforming sidescroller on PC.

[Anonymous No.1883763]

>>1883720

This.

[Anonymous No.1883773]

>>1883708
The first three? Maybe a little mediocre.
4, 5 and 6? No way. They were great for their time and great today:
>Good clear graphics
>Great music
>Pogo stick
>Imaginative enemies and setting
>Tight as fuck controls

[Anonymous No.1883842]

>>1883720
ahahaha fuck off the pogo mechanics alone make it a top tier game. Stop being such a consolefag

[Anonymous No.1883882]

>>1883842
The pogo is neat but nothing groundbreaking.

[Anonymous No.1883893]

>>1883708
Nope.

Mediocre is the best way to describe them. Compared to similar games of the time they don't stand out and they're much worse. But to people who only owned PCs at the time it was the best you could get, so it holds a special place in many people's hearts.

[Anonymous No.1883898]

>>1883893
fuck off the first 3 maybe I can agree but as the other guy said 4 5 and 6 all hold up really well.

[Anonymous No.1883916]

>>1883898
Compared to what? NES platformers? CK 1-3 aren't even close to what NES platformers are or could by at the time. And 4-6 came out when SNES was a thing, and had games like Act Raiser and Super Castlevania IV.

Like I said, CK games are mediocre, they're middle of the road, they're average. But like I also said, if all you owned at the time was a PC I could understand the nostalgia.

But if you're gonna sit here and tell me they're timeless classics compared to NES, SNES and Arcade games of that time you're a fanboy whose opinion is worth less than nothing.

[Anonymous No.1883934]

Compared to the console platformers of the time or even older NES games classic PC platformers like CK, Duke Nukem, Cosmo's Adventures etc. are fucking awful. They just are. For computers they were the best you could get, but there was never much of a choice. As PC games they're classics, compared to console games of the time they're below Action 52 tier. If you even try to begin arguing against this you're just a nostalgiafag, and I grew up on shitty PC shareware. You know the DOS Megaman games everyone pokes fun at? It was of the same quality as other PC platformers of the time like CK, but it's only because they put it in NES Megaman perspective it's considered kusoge and not a "timeless classic".

Now the real question I have is: why? Why did PCs of the time handle platformers like shit? The graphics are atrocious and everything is choppy as hell. To mind '93 is when Doom was released, but platformers of the time still lagged two generations behind the competition. What were the hardware challenges? It's been bugging me for a while.

[Anonymous No.1883939]

>>1883934
i think it was the way dos handled scrolling

amigas did it much better

[Anonymous No.1883941]

>>1883893

This the same reason people liked Jazz Jackrabbit and Raptor.

[Anonymous No.1883949]

>>1883939

there was a section on it in masters of doom. basically getting the screen to scroll smoothly in a dos game was a huge pain in the ass (commander keen was a huge technical achievement at the time), whereas the NES had that functionality built in

[Anonymous No.1883956]

>>1883916
Keen 3-6 were exceptional games, actraiser is one of my favorite SNES games and I still think keen is on its level. Actraiser had awesome controls (apart from the stupid crouch after jump) and keen handles equally as well, the impossible pogo trick is required to find lots of secrets and it's easy to pull off because of the tight controls. Also as for graphics it was on par with 16 bit games at the time what it lacked in color pallete it made up with in higher detail running at 320x200 vs the SNES at 256x224. I don't know why people hate on the series I have more fun playing them than mario world.

[Anonymous No.1883958]

>>1883941
There is nothing wrong with liking something, regardless of the quality.

It is when you cannot judge the quality of something through your tinted nostalgia shades that an issue arises. And it doesn't help that so many people have incredibly fragile egos tied exclusively to the things they grew up with.

[Anonymous No.1883981]

>>1883949
>whereas the NES had that functionality built in

Nah, that's memory controllers for you. Stock NES can't scroll shit, just tiles.

[Anonymous No.1884008]

>>1883720
>but as PC game it's timeless classic

Er, no. There were much better PC games at the time and before.

All PC sidescollers are kind of shit. CK gets the free pass because it's made by ID.

[Anonymous No.1884042]

the keen series are solid platformers, but its also a bit unfair/ignorant to compare the whole series to console games. of course keen 1-3 look like shit, but keen 4-6 are easily higher than snes quality.

[Anonymous No.1884079]

>>1883934

>using nostalgiafag as insult on /vr/
>comparing a playable game with unplayable garbage like A52 or even pc MM, which have lots of problems from design to controls to being so "poked"

I don't even like CK and think there are lots of better DOS platformers, but you are a faggot.

[Anonymous No.1884080]

>>1884042
I recently played Keen 4 and I think it looks and sounds like shit, while a lot of SNES games hold up just fine.

[Anonymous No.1884347]

They're pretty weak, DOS platformers didn't get good until a year or two later. Duke Nukem 1, Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure, Secret Agent, etc. all still hold up today.

[Anonymous No.1885796]

Nah, I'm with ya.

[Anonymous No.1885851]

4 was much better than the whole lot. I had fun sure, but not as much fun as with a lot of other offerings. It's purpose soon wears off when later platformers for PC came about and to a lesser extent emulation.

There's a few hacks out there. I wonder if they're any better?

[Anonymous No.1885852]

>>1883934
Consoles had dedicated hardware for sprites and scrolling, PCs had to do it all in software.

[Anonymous No.1885874]

DOS has pretty low standards for game design in general.

[Anonymous No.1885920]

>ITT people being experts in why other people like a game.

>>1883941
Are Jazz and Raptor considered bad games?!?

Anyways, comparing the games to consoles of their time is just stupid.
I can play SMB on a NES/emulator today and fully enjoy the game despite there being games with better sound, graphics and gameplay. Comparing it to anything other than my own judgement on how FUN it is doesn't make sense. It's like saying console games of the time were shit compared to arcade games.
The fact alone that something else exist doesn't make it mediocre.

[Anonymous No.1885930]

>>1885920
>Are Jazz and Raptor considered bad games?!?
Jazz is notable for being 60fps/70fps (although not fullscreen), but it doesn't stand up to console releases of the time.

Raptor is euroshmup garbage.

[Anonymous No.1886869]

>>1885920
I'm not comparing Commander Keen to anything when I say it's mediocre.

[Anonymous No.1887017]

Keen 1-3 hasn't held up, but Keen 4-6 sure as hell have. I too grew up on DOS shareware, and while I'm not too fond of most games from that time, the Goodbye Galaxy Keen games are still fun to me. Keen still feels satisfying to control, the enemies and worlds are imaginative, and the music still sticks with me.

The only thing I don't like are the one-hit kills, but at least the games allow you to save at any point.

[Anonymous No.1887134]

>>1883934
>below Action 52 tier
Really, they're games that straight-up don't work?

[Anonymous No.1887173]

>>1886869
I don't agree with them, I think that it is very fair to compare games based on what came out at the time or before it, like Quake and Goldeneye, but it is impossible to rate a game without comparing it to something, even subconsciously. The reason you think people like the game because that is all they played should be enough to prove that you think the same way. They enjoy it because they had nothing to compare it to, you said. Anyways, I think it held up. I enjoy the Commander Keen games, but I never did see a computer as a platforming game platform. I expected much more complex games, ones that utilized the mouse and most if not all the keys on the keyboard. Platformers have always just been a console thing, because they were made to be simple games to utilize the very limited controller inputs consoles of their time had. Though that said, Jazz Jackrabbit is fantastic.

>>1885930
Why doesn't Jazz Jackrabbit stand up? What games at the time do you think surpassed it? I felt it to be a fantastic game, very fast paced with excellent variety of weapons and enemies. To me, it was the love child of Sonic the Hedgehog, Duke Nukem 2, and Super Mario Bros. 3.

[Anonymous No.1887242]

DOS games were pretty amateur in design as a whole and I'm not really sure why. Was it because of a lack of Japanese influence? They didn't give up the X68000 and move over to Microsoft systems until Windows finally got more of a foothold with Windows 95.

[Anonymous No.1887304]

>>1887173
>The reason you think people like the game because that is all they played should be enough to prove that you think the same way

I wasn't the one who said that. I regularly play both old and new games, and growing up having both old and new consoles, the idea of enjoying games that were technically inferior has always been a part of my life, I judge games based on their content, their historical context does not interest me, Plenty of NES or DOS games still offer quality gaming experiences that you can't really get on modern games and Commander Keen is not one of them.

This is not an attack on DOS games or PC games, I also think Jazz Jackrabbit is good, for example.

[Anonymous No.1887450]

>>1887242
Because most DOS games were made by small garage teams

[Anonymous No.1887463]

>>1887450
Mega Man was made by like 8 people.

[Anonymous No.1887482]

>>1887450
http://gaming.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros./credits

[Anonymous No.1887490]

>>1887463
>>1887482
all of whom had funding and previous experience

[Anonymous No.1887569]

>>1883708

PC had NOTHING like it at all.

[Anonymous No.1887586]

>>1887173
if you had the misfortune of posessing Jazz Jackrabbit CD you could meet some gamebreaking bugs which make simple passages impossible. the viewport is really small so you often bumped into enemies that come out of nowhere.

JJ2 fixes most of the issues, but they forgot to change the gameplay to reflect those changes so in other hand you can see enemies from mile away and some of your weapons have really long range.

the only thing that holds up JJ2 is multiplayer, the only thing cliff zimbabwe is good at

[Anonymous No.1887765]

>>1887586
The music in JJ2 is fucking amazing though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OR9esOvUUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVHVNAkyMIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJyq0STBu0

[Anonymous No.1887776]

Only one weapon, most enemies die in one hit, very simplistic platforming, derpy puzzle-boss at the end of the third game. It was fun when I was like 10, but there's very little substance to Commander Keen that would actually be attractive to an adult gamer.

Just look at Megaman: It's the same kind of jump'n'shoot platformer, but Megaman has everything Commander Keen doesn't: Challenging bosses, weapon variety, good graphics (not shitty programmer art), engaging gameplay. In Commander Keen you can't even walk and shoot at the same time. Lame.

[Anonymous No.1887779]

>>1884008
>All PC sidescollers are kind of shit
Dangerous Dave would like to have a word with you.

[Anonymous No.1887781]

>>1887779
except for the 2nd of the 4 games they're even more shit than average.

[Anonymous No.1887783]

I grew up playing C64, PC, NES and Arcade.
One thing I really liked about Commander Keen was the very unique setting. For starters this wasn't a movie tie-in. It wasn't neither an Aliens, Rambo or Star Wars rip-off. Instead you are playing as a kid who is just playing/imagining a great adventure. It's brilliant.
Adding to that, the actual gameplay was really tight. It had options, difficulty settings, a story, end sequence, huge levels, secrets, varied levels and enemies, save feature. All of which may seem pretty standard, but how many NES games had all this?

But what it all comes down to: Is it fun? I thought it was. Some don't. End of story.

[Anonymous No.1887784]

>>1887781
Haunted Mansion was great, and I remember really liking the third game as well. It's been a while since I played it, though.

[Anonymous No.1887790]

>>1887784
Dangerous Dave 2 is one of those games I feel like I should hate, but for some reason I can't hate it.

[Anonymous No.1887794]

>>1884008
>All PC sidescollers are kind of shit.
The shittiest NES sidescrollers were shittier than the shittiest PC sidescrollers.

Today sidescrollers are pretty much only alive on PC.

[Anonymous No.1887804]

>>1887794
And handhelds.

[Anonymous No.1887812]

You are comparing indie games to big budget releases.

[Anonymous No.1888036]

>>1887450
Cho Ren Sha 68K was made by 1 person with no previous professional design experience and another one writing the music. Why couldn't DOS get a shmup anywhere near as good as Cho Ren Sha 68K?

[Anonymous No.1888064]

>>1888036
1. Because the 68K had excellent hardware sprites and scrolling, DOS games had to do everything in software.
2. Because people reviewed games by counting the features, which meant euroshmup crap got good reviews and nobody made arcade style shmups.

[Anonymous No.1888783]

>>1883941
You fags keep saying that but I had an NES at the time and I had played mario world and sonic on the other consoles and I still thought commander keen held up. I think its just console fags looking for bullshit to hate on PC games

[Anonymous No.1888807]

>>1883842
>consolefag
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.1888826]

>>1883941
I first experienced all this stuff around 1998 or 1999, at the same time I was finding emulators like Nesticle and ZSNES. Jazz and Raptor are just as good as a typical SNES game.

[Anonymous No.1888876]

>>1888807
how about you go to /v/ where you're free to hate on quality games just because you don't like the platform they are on. faget

[Anonymous No.1888946]

>>1888783
I'm in the same boat as this anon. Sounds like a lot of BS to me as well.

[Anonymous No.1889023]

>>1883720
>>1883893
Goodbye Galaxy (Keen 4) came out in 1991 and had great graphics and variety for the time. Of course if you're looking for high challenge and super tight stage design it doesn't rank highly, but it's not an arcade-style game.

[Anonymous No.1889030]

>>1886869
>I'm not comparing Commander Keen to anything when I say it's mediocre.
That shit's all retarded. It's nonsensical to say something is "mediocre" but not in a comparative way. If Keen was the only game in existence everyone would think it was the tightest shit ever, not to mention the implicit comparisons of what's considered technically impressive at the time of release.

[Anonymous No.1889098]

>>1889023
it does have high challenge though, you can beat all the levels you need to beat easy enough but if you want all the bonuses and secrets its actually pretty tough.

[Anonymous No.1890885]

>>1883934
>Compared to the console platformers of the time or even older NES games classic PC platformers like CK, Duke Nukem, Cosmo's Adventures etc. are fucking awfu
holy crap fuck off.
I grew up with Sonic, and I have a fucking blast with Duke Nukem II or Jazz Jackrabbit. They are spectular platformers.

[Anonymous No.1890889]

>>1883941
and this >>1890885 go for you too

[Anonymous No.1890891]

>>1885930
>Jazz is notable for being 60fps/70fps (although not fullscreen), but it doesn't stand up to console releases of the time.

[Anonymous No.1890892]

>>1887586
>if you had the misfortune of posessing Jazz Jackrabbit CD you could meet some gamebreaking bugs which make simple passages impossible.
>unlike Sonic

[Anonymous No.1890894]

>>1887776
>In Resident Evil you can't even walk and shoot at the same time. Lame.

[Anonymous No.1890924]

>>1890894
Resident evil is not a platformer, it's a slow-paced survival horror games

Slow paced platformers are wretched.

[Anonymous No.1890929]

>>1887812
they compete for the same audience, they can be judged by the same standards, further the development teams for "big budget" titles and these games were more or less the same in size.

[Anonymous No.1891387]

>>1890894
Well, yes. Resident Evil was a derpy attempt at "realism," created by unathletic nips who have no idea how to shoot a gun.

[Anonymous No.1892785]

>>1887776
Megaman better graphics than Keen?
Okay, whatever you say brawh.

I just played through MM2 for the first time...

>disappearing platform memorization BS
>Beat most bosses in first try without even learning their patterns
>Can't even shoot up and down with most weapons
>Totally linear stages, no exploration
>First 8 stages has same difficulty

Megaman is good. It's very different from Keen, which is also very good. But calling one a masterpiece and the other trash is simply unfair.

[Anonymous No.1892849]

>>1885930
>actually using the phrase "euroshmup"
Opinion disregarded

[Anonymous No.1892968]

>>1892849
Why? It's a fitting term.

[Anonymous No.1893834]

>>1892785
>comparing Commander Keen to the worst NES Megaman game
>Commander Keen came out in 1991 and Megaman 2 came out in 1987

Yeah, that's a real fair comparison.

[Anonymous No.1894123]

>>1892785
>disappearing platform memorization
git gud
>Beat most bosses in first try
Not only is MM2 the easiest Mega Man, I'm also guessing you played normal mode which is super easy for casual NA players
>Can't even shoot up and down with most weapons
The game is designed so you don't have to.
>Totally linear stages, no exploration
Up to preference, it makes for a game more focused on action
>First 8 stages have same difficulty
Sounds to me like you had some trouble with Heat Man stage.

[Anonymous No.1895664]

>>1893834
Worst? I read everywhere it's considered the best? That's why I played that one. Regardless, it was the other anon that thought comparing Keen and Megaman was a good idea.
>>1894123
Again, that other anon was making bullshit comparisons between Keen and MM. I can make bullshit comparisons too!

>Heat-man stage
>Implying memorizing is hard
>Implying it still isn't bad game design

[Anonymous No.1898171]

First three, yeah and maybe 6. 4 and 5 are above average in the grand scale of platformers, and probably the best PC platformers Hell they out does a lot of Amiga platformers. (Really Amiga fan Super Frog is your holy grail of platformers? Even on the Amiga Fire and Ice is FAR better.)

[Anonymous No.1898175]

>>1885920
Raptor has problems. Best look at it I've seen.

http://www.pixelships.com/adg/ep0060.html

[Anonymous No.1898176]

>>1893834
>worst NES Megaman game
gtfo contrarian. The original Megaman was undeniably worse than the second unless you like dumbass level design and cheap platforming.

[Anonymous No.1898928]

>>1898176
>calls poster "contrarian"
>immediately posts contrary opinion

lol

[Anonymous No.1899005]

>>1883708
1, 2 and 3 are just shitty, 5 would be great if it wasn't so generic (each level is inside a space ship and the graphics don't change almost at all) and felt so claustrophobic (too many closed space in the game, 4 felt much bigger even inside caves). Haven't played 6 yet.

>>1883941
Don't you talk shit about Jazz Jackrabbit you stupid faggot. JJ1 had great level design and god-tier OST, JJ2 kinda falls short on the level design but the OST is god-tier too, had excellent multiplayer and custom content (so many great custom levels).

[Anonymous No.1899031]

>>1899005
>(each level is inside a space ship and the graphics don't change almost at all) and felt so claustrophobic (too many closed space in the game, 4 felt much bigger even inside caves)
I have the exact same opinion, actually.

Keen 4 has caves, villages, pyramids, a lake, and other uniquely-themed levels.
Keen 5 just has one theme for the entire game. Keen 2 also went with a spaceship theme, but I feel like it pulled it off a little better (though that might be nostalgia talking, I was like 8 when I played it)

Overall, I'd say Keen 4 is the best one, with Keen 6 a close second.

[Anonymous No.1899041]

>>1899031
I haven't played Keen 6 yet, but I'll start it soon.
What is your opinion on Commander Keen mods? I've heard there is one good mod for each Keen game from 4 to 6.

[Anonymous No.1899042]

>>1898171
Amiga platform games are a mixed bag. One one hand you've got really great stuff like Lionheart, Gods, Turrican, Adams Family, etc. Then there's the real dogs like that Castlevania port with its inexplicably choppy framerate and lag when pressing fire button, which makes the game basically unplayable... And in between those two extremes of great/horrible there's a large number of fairly good to mediocre platform games, including non-efficient ports of arcade games, and a bunch of stuff coded in AMOS or whatever. But many of the games in this middle category are fun to play, at least compared to the PC stuff at the time (but often not as polished as console or arcade games). That's because Amiga really is a hybrid of computer/console, but it only shows its strengths when the coders learn the hardware and take advantage of it fully. And it was designed and documented from the beginning to make smooth 2D games easy, unlike PC where they had to find various tricks for smooth scrolling, along with also needing more beefy CPU and VGA card. Also, of course sound was much better on Amiga until all games on PC started supporting SB16, Roland, etc. But by that time, the gaming world was moving away from 2D platform stuff and towards 3D FPS...

As for me, well I grew up on Amstrad CPC and NES, then some years later got Amiga and Sega Genesis. So looking today at these old PC platform games is a bit underwhelming, but I still did enjoy some like Bio Menace and Duke Nukem, partly because of their atmosphere.

[Anonymous No.1899043]

>>1883708
I'm not too keen on them, myself.

[Anonymous No.1899079]

>>1899043
Good one

[Anonymous No.1899205]

>>1899041
I've played a bunch of keen mods. I personally like a lot of them, although many of them can be pretty difficult because the makers have been fans for so long. I'd suggest the fan made trilogy of 7, 8 and 9 to begin with. I also like Mink's Puzzle Pack, in which you use your own clones to get through the levels.

Really, there's a huge amount of mods to play so I'd suggest trying what you find interesting and see for yourself if you like them.

[Anonymous No.1899260]

>>1899042
>Lionheart, Gods, Turrican, Adams Family

Honestly I'd put them in the same category as Keen 4, solid B, B+. Better then say EarthWorm Jim on the consoles but not top of the line platformers like Mario or Ristar.

What gets me is those are almost never the ones many Amiga fans go to for "great Platformers" though. It's always fucking Super Frog.

[Anonymous No.1899378]

>>1899260
I think Superfrog is often listed because it's by Team 17, and all their stuff is popular... But there's plenty of other decent/good platform games like Yo! Joe!, James Pond, Assassin, Switchblade, Soccer Kid, Fire and Ice, Blues Brothers, Leander, Nicky Boom, Risky Woods, Odyssey, Harlequin, Traps 'n' Treasures, etc. Actually I'm surprised the Amiga iconic platform game isn't Zool, because that one was pushed so hard for a while in the magazines.

But there's other factors too. I generally prefer games with a weird/fantasy atmosphere to other types (like Mario or whatever) and so greatly enjoyed stuff like Enchanted Land, Shadow of the Beast, Kid Gloves II, etc. even though they're technically not as well-realized as some other games. So the game's atmosphere plays an important part for my enjoyment and can easily trump the technical aspects... It's why I spent a lot of time playing stuff like Chakan, Blades of Vengeance, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, etc. on Sega Genesis rather than the best/most popular games (except the very first Sonic game, never got tired of that one!) It also explains why I can greatly enjoy NES games like Castlevania II, Zelda II, and Faxanadu when others just find them confusing and frustrating. And on PC? Well I think Jill of the Jungle, Xargon, Hocus Pocus, and Inner Worlds are all more interesting than the Keen stuff. Btw, if anyone wants to try Inner Worlds (it's fairly unknown, but quite good):
https://archive.org/details/InnerWorlds_1020
I only know about it because they released a Linux port in the 90's, but I can't find that version anymore...