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File: 403 KB, 1280x960, maridia tube.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
1817090 No.1817090 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Was it bad game design?

>> No.1817116


>> No.1817121


>> No.1817123

Are you sure?

>> No.1817151

Haven't played the game in a billion years. Was there a tube like that but already busted somewhere else in the game? If so, no. If not, maybe.

>> No.1817156

It was good game design. Next.

>> No.1817160

Yeah there is another tube already busted open. You see it first if you take the wrecked ship exit to maridia, like you're supposed to.

It's my favorite part of the game, which is kinda sad. I LOVE the game too.

>> No.1817161

>Was there a tube like that but already busted somewhere else in the game?
Yes there is. Moreover, it's clear from the map that your next destination must be be somewhere above the intact tube.

>> No.1817168


Yes. You aren't however.

>> No.1817169

No. I ran around for a while, then when I realized I needed to go up and that there was another busted tube, I used all my weapons I had until one of them worked.

>> No.1817174

I'm just trying to find some dissenting opinions. There's a thread on /v/ right now with some chaps that are pretty sure that it's a flaw.

>> No.1817175

Not at all.

I remember trying to figure this part out.

I set a bomb, and it went off. and nothing happened. Then I moved Samus and it was like out of a dream. I went (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and kept playing.

It was an enthralling moment in the game, you kidding?

>> No.1817180


You have to keep in mind that /v/ is full of people trying to over criticize and purposefully set out to find flaws sometimes to the point of making them up. The tube mechanic is alluded to in another part of the world. The grey squares in the map also indicate an entrance into that area from there.

>> No.1817181

No. This room is designed to look like you could very easily jump on the above platform, or traverse into the cavern below. Even fledgling players can guess that they should be able to reach these areas, somehow. Then, the next step is simply experimentation. You don't exactly have a lot of tools to try, so it shouldn't take long to realize that a powerbomb is the solution.

I imagine people who get stuck at this part to have very shallow, inside-the-box mindsets. "The game did not tell me explicitly I am able to break glass, therefore I am unable to break glass".

>> No.1817183
File: 68 KB, 1280x960, super metroid maridia map.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>The grey squares in the map also indicate an entrance into that area from there.
It straight up tells you really.

>> No.1817186

Nah I think this is just a case of "I didn't get it so it's bad design!"

You have to wonder how these people handle puzzles in even more abstract games like Myst.

>> No.1817206

Me too. I think that's what was supposed to happen. Seems pretty obvious to me.
Whereas newer games spoon feed infants, older games give the spoon to a toddler and tell him to go find his own goddamned jar of applesauce to open and eat, the sort of parental neglect that fosters independent genius rather than mollycoddles mental midgets.

I was talking to someone recently because they were playing FFV SNES (the RPGe trans) and couldn't figure out where to go in Hiryuu Valley (to get meds for Galuf's dragon thing).
He showed me the part on his phone and I chortled. It's the part with the closed door and a switch clearly too far to manipulate.
"There must be a secret passage but the thief 'passages' ability doesn't show me any!"
See, he's a younger gamer and it never occurs to the younger generations to move the player character all over and check everything. If the game doesn't beat the player in the dick with the answer, younger gamers will never figure it out themselves.
I took his phone, told him to watch closely, and moved the player character around the room a bit until it fell through a pitfall into a room below, easy peasy.

So yeah, Super Metroid hinted at everything you needed to do in order to progress. It didn't tell you what you needed to do/where you needed to go (like all these newfangled Metroidvanias do) nor, horror of horrors, do it for you (like the newer Zelda games do). It helped you just enough for you to help yourself.

>> No.1817209

I played through Super Metroid with a guide, as I did with all my games at that age. I'll never know the joy of figuring out what to do here yourself.

>> No.1817213


>> No.1817216

How so?

>> No.1817223

Thats stupid.
See he was doing the right thing.
He was using tools the game gave him and still couldn't find an answer

So the answer is just to fall through some stupid blocks. And you feel this was "good design" and somehow the younger generation are stupider.

The fact he asserted that there was a hidden switch and used the thiefs hidden passage ability probably makes him a smarter gamer then you back in the day

>> No.1817236

Nope. When I first played it, the thief's 'passages' didn't do anything for me either, so I used elementalist's 'pitfalls' and saw the hole through which to drop down. He didn't use elementalists at all so he didn't have that ability yet. Instead, I walked about to find the hole to fall through. He thought it was 'neat.'
He liked FFIII DS and hated FFIV DS because FFIII tells the player where "hidden" items are by making the spots glimmer a bit if you look closely while FFIV does not. How they can be considered "hidden," I'll never know.

>> No.1817245

there are obvious areas above and below that metroid must traverse
also someone mentioned you pass a broken one already

>> No.1817257

guess + check , no hint whatsoever . so much fun

>> No.1817279

oh u

>> No.1817280

Bad game design? You dare to say that this game was badly designed? You're a disgrace to humanity! The fires of hell will burn you for eternity, I will make sure of this! Perish, you fool!

>> No.1817349

relax, this board is populated by hipsters and casuals that think Bubsy is a good game.

>> No.1817376

Bubsy 3D is a masterpiece, you just don't get the irony

>> No.1817409

A pretty significant part of playing Metroid is laying bombs everywhere to find secret paths and shit. People like to shit on power bombs for some reason, even though the whole point of them was that you could effectively check for breakables on an entire screen (this actually made the X-Ray Scope somewhat redundant, but I don't think anyone argues that it was a useful item to begin with).

If your first instinct when coming across the tube wasn't "I bet I can break this," then you were either braindead as a child or are playing it now in an era where you aren't used to thinking creatively while playing games.

Design-wise, it was very clear you needed to get outside of the tube (the map indicating as much), and three horizontal hallway rooms in a row was deliberately suspicious. There was also a similar destroyed tube elsewhere.

What's really confusing about the Meridia tube argument is that people who call it bad design seem to treat it like it's supposed to be some sort of "aha!' moment. But really, it was no more special than any of the hundreds of other secrets in the game, it just stands out because it had a cool animation. I actually do remember doing it for the first time, but it was just the intuitive thing to do, not something I figured out. The proper reaction isn't "Whoa I just broke that tube!" it's "Now I can explore Meridia!"

>> No.1817430

I (somehow) haven't gotten around to playing the entirety of Super Metroid and my first instinct when seeing this thread was "how do you break that?".

>> No.1817432
File: 49 KB, 540x960, SM0051pb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

You guys are a bunch of causals

>> No.1817435

I think it was bad game design combined with artificial difficulty and hipster shit.

>> No.1817583


Big part of why I left that shithole for good. Every single day it was a race to the bottom, everyone trying to out-nitpick the next guy. It's like the Spoony video of FFX where he goes on a tear about a street light, his entire shtick was applying real-world logic and expectations to fantasy video games. And /v/ was pretty similar in it's own shitty ways on a daily basis. Fuck /v/, I still remember some of the creepy fucking posts made when Last of Us was just around the corner to come out.

>> No.1817778

Mine's 0:43, step it up anon.

>> No.1817864

What? No.

>> No.1818243
File: 777 KB, 250x250, vNuMyNa.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

That's the thing that's always confused me about Metroid love.
To me, having to bomb every tile on the screen in desperation is not good game design.
>oh but it's encouraging exploration!
Bullshit. I feel like if this game wasn't made by nintendo it wouldn't be praised so highly.

>> No.1818250

You don't even remotely have to do that in Super.

>> No.1818397

I actually figured that part out myself. It's a big glass tube between two empty halls. It's just begging to be broken.

It's not bad design, because people forget that Super Metroid is a puzzle game as much as it is an action/ adventure game.

Super Metroid is a giant maze.

>> No.1818437

speedrunning is lame

>> No.1818446

Said the casual, as he moved onto his next disposable cinematic experience, unable to find value in replaying games.

>> No.1818470
File: 107 KB, 320x320, tumblr_inline_ms5tzysO1D1qz4rgp.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Eh, nah, speedrunning is pretty lame m8

>> No.1818473

except for the (multiple) times you do...?

>> No.1818485

Most of the beginning of the game preps you to think outside the box, or brute force your way through by detonating all your weapons. If it happened at an earlier point in the game? Yeah, bad design.

>> No.1818487

I bet you're not even 100%.
Fucking casuals.

>> No.1818494

speed running for world record is kiiiinda cool except for the level skipping and glitching stats or mechanics shit. I like to use speedrunning tricks to beat games faster tho

>> No.1818505

The solution was in the TV commercial.

>> No.1818508

That's slower though, and it has its own category anyways

>> No.1818513

Me too. Nobody said you have to be a filthy stream whore to enjoy beating something fast.

>> No.1818526

Of course 100% is slower. It's 100%.
I'm calling you slow you dense fuckwit.

>> No.1818537

cool, do a 100% run and show us your time?

>> No.1818543

If I'm anywhere above 0:51 (4 minutes off the 100% world record) you're going to act unimpressed.
Why would I bother?

>> No.1818568

>Was it bad game design?
No. Between the platform right above the tube and the map showing pieces both above and below the tube, I caught on really quick that there was a way out. And like other anons pointed out, there's even a broken tube elsewhere.

>> No.1818596

Quite the opposite, I'm glad to meet anyone that's into speedrunning to be honest

>> No.1818624

X-ray visor

>> No.1818663

That's part of the exploratory aspect of the game. Nevertheless, most of Nintendo's games are easy. If SM is frustrating for you, you probably shouldn't be playing games that involve exploration.

>> No.1818940

The game gave you hints about the tube, it's function/purpose, etc, but I can imagine a few people sat their scratching their heads. If I remember right:

>Map tells you you're entering another zone.
Sort of strange they would do that rather than put an auto-transition in, unless there was a purpose.
>There's another identical pipe busted open around the wrecked ship.
Not a direct confirmation that you can break this one, but it is a minor hint.

I think it would've been better had there been other objects that would randomly break from super bombs. For instance, put similar, smaller pipe things around super bomb blocks, the player sets one off and notices the pipes crack too. Then, when they see a bigger pipe like this one, they realize it might be able to be cracked in the same way.

The thing is that the pipe cracking thing is only used once in the game and no preexisting mechanics really mark that in any way. Also, unlike how the transition from Brinstar to Norfair is (Your way back is blocked since you don't have the ice beam, telling you your next objective is in your current zone), you have access to multiple zones with a lot of ground to cover, though the map marker is probably a big enough hint for some.

>> No.1818963

After careful consideration, I'd have to say that anybody who calls this bad game design might be mentally handicapped. It is more obvious than a slap in the face.

>> No.1818974

I don't think so, when you get the powerbomb it's pretty standard procedure to nuke every other suspicious room for hidden blocks. I think the same room where you get the powerbombs for the first time require you to destroy the walls in this fashion.

I played this game not too long ago and I didn't even remember this being a "puzzle".

>> No.1818982

Looks like the game isn't so "perfect" as its obnoxious fan base makes it out to be.

>> No.1818984

SM does have legitimately clunky controls compared to the rest of the series, aiming, missile switching, running and specially the grappling beam really are mechanically flawed.
This complaint, however, isn't one of them.

>> No.1818985

It's not a perfect game. It is the closest thing to a perfect game on the SNES.

>> No.1818998
File: 36 KB, 500x375, the barrel room.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

No, but this was.

>> No.1819041

Hahahahaha, you lying sack of shit. 0/10

>> No.1819043

that was actually a right of passage. It separated the hardcores from the casuals.

>> No.1819046

I had to look it up myself, I just figured the broken one was for atmosphere or something. I feel like I did try a power bomb, and I recall it not doing anything, so I figured if a power bomb wouldn't break it then nothing would.

>> No.1819051

Being my favorite game, one of the flaws I find is the default controls, and the fact there's not a better way of using diagonal aiming but wasting both L and R buttons.

Frankly I always found it better to use B to jump, Y to shoot and L or R to sprint.

>> No.1819064

More like it separated the psychics from the casuals. While the actual solution isn't that hard once you figured it out (hurr durr alternate up and down), it's completely obscured through the fact you would never use the "Up" button for movement in any of the old Sonic games. Everything about the game's design tells you should be able to push it down by jumping on it. The same level even has those similarly-designed inflated platforms that move around when you jump at different times.

I'm still convinced only way anyone has ever gotten through that room is 1) completely by accident, 2) they used the Sega hotline in 1994, or 3) they're one of the new kids using their crazy strategy guides.

Sonic 3+K is my favorite game of all time, but fuck that room.

>> No.1819068

It's the only thing in the whole game that uses up and down buttons to progress, it only shows up in one level, there's no precedent whatsoever for its operation set seen in any other object in the game, and to top it all off, you can get past a few of them, including the first one, by timing your jumps, an action which is not a one-off excursion that never happens again, but actually has significant precedence and persistence throughout the game. The whole thing smells like bad design, but what seals the deal and makes it bad design is the fact that they don't even teach you the correct method in its first appearance. It sets players up to fail by going against everything the game had taught them up to that point, and it's worse because the first one misleads them into thinking that they're doing it correctly. If all that doesn't make for bad game design, then I honestly don't know what does.

>> No.1819069

I never played Sonic as a child and I got this trick immediately when I came to it. You have to be handicapped to not experiment with all the controls anyway.

>> No.1819070

>tfw you know the entire map by heart
>it isn''t an endless series of tubes or a maze at all
>you'll never recover the mystery of the map

>> No.1819078

>Play Super Metroid Legacy for the first time
>Finish it
>Entire map is in my head for weeks

It's like the only romhack I actually like.

>> No.1819086

>>1819064 here. Yeah, I guess it's going to cross my mind to test for random control schemes that make no sense and contradict the mechanics at every other point of the game (and the Genesis trilogy as a whole). Also, what >>1819068 said

I'm pretty sure you're bullshittin and you just want your little star sticker.

>> No.1819089

>Everything about the game's design tells you should be able to push it down by jumping on it

>Hmm, I can't make this work quickly by jumping on it, maybe I should try something else.

>> No.1819097

I don't know. I worked it out as soon as I saw it, even before getting the power bomb, because that's how you get the Ice Spreader in Metroid Prime. I never owned Super Metroid when I had a SNES, and played it for the first time only recently.

>> No.1819113

Except Sega (stupidly) gave the barrels a physics engine that responds to jumping. Significantly. Like, just ALMOST enough to get the barrel to dip all the way down if you time your jumps well enough. This just creates the illusion the player isn't jumping right, not that their approach has to be completely different. It encourages you to keep using the wrong solution.

You're still not getting your special star.

>> No.1819135
File: 263 KB, 781x686, I want to break you.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

How long did you spend in here, trying to uncover the obvious secret hidden somewhere?

>> No.1819149

Yeah, I hate that kind of shit sometimes. When something in a game looks real suspicious and there's nothing there.

And you keep wondering if you're gonna have to go back to it. But there's nothing there. You won't figure it out until you actually checked it up on internet or something. Using editing tools.

>> No.1819204

Not him but when I played Sonic as an 8 year old I got past this part. I barely even remember the barrel, let alone having problems with it.

>> No.1819224

>It encourages you to keep using the wrong solution.

You know what they say about insanity.

You can't do it easily with jumping, so you keep trying to jump through it, despite knowing you have a time limit and that jumping is not working to get you through it in a quick manner?

>> No.1819246

No, because the map has nothing above it.

>> No.1819262

Well that's one way of reasoning while playing SM...

>> No.1819267

a few minor flaws does not stop it from being the best SNES game and one of the best games of all time period

>> No.1819287

Right? I never even heard of the barrel before /vr/'s debut and I played the fuck outta and beat all the Sonic games. I don't really remember the barrel either nor having any problems with it.

>> No.1819290
File: 90 KB, 389x262, Selection_001.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


wow look at all these scrubs who dont know shit. Posting in game times means pretty much fucking nothing. A bunch of casuals calling people casuals in here.

pic related its from a run I did a year ago.

>> No.1819292

i don't see what you're trying to convey here

>> No.1819301


>think that's "hardcore"
>being this casual

>> No.1819307

item collecting rate?

>> No.1819310


it's an any% run you fucking newfag

>> No.1819316

And you took 33 minutes? You must think you're hot shit or something.

>> No.1819318


>doesnt know shit about speed running sm
>couldn't even tell it was any% based on time

yea whatever faggot

>> No.1819374

>SM does have legitimately clunky controls compared to the rest of the series, aiming, missile switching, running and specially the grappling beam really are mechanically flawed.
Bullshit, Super Metroid has fantastic controls. You have so much more control than any other game in the series. Just because the gravity is floaty does not make it bad. More aerial control is -good-.

>> No.1819376

That's pretty damn impressive, assuming you're not a lying sack of shit.

>> No.1819450

Easy to fake. Play up to the end, use Game Genie to reset time played to zero, save again, dick around for X minutes, then finish the game.

>> No.1819460

they have glitched TAS runs with the time of...


>> No.1819479

Oh, I didn't doubt that it's possible, but it's still easy to fake, even without savestates.

>> No.1819481

It was the only thing I remember from the game that looked like glass and when I played I thought "hey this shit is made of glass I'm sure a bomb could break it." When I was wrong I thought "fuck it, power bombs can break anything."

So no not really. At least, I don't think so.

Now that barrel in sonic 3 on the other hand...

>> No.1819482


Bearing in mind the current WR (Non-tas run) is 00:34 using PAL only tricks...i'm INCLINED to say you're full of shit.

>You say you got this time last year
>SDA's recording is from 2010
>SDA is notorious for not updating shit

The runner even went to say in the comments:
>After watching the run you come to realise ( well i do ) that if you take all those mistakes away. Add a chozo skip at the biginning and two rounding phantoon then 33 minutes is probably limit which is certainly within reach.

So benefit of the doubt is possible...I guess...

>> No.1819485


Also, the fact that this little glass walkway is its own dedicated area should be a giveaway that you need to do SOMETHING to get through the tube anyway is a major point in favor of it being well designed.

>> No.1819492


Man I can't even get below 5:30

Tell me your secrets master.

>> No.1819494

You can skip most of the weapon expansions for starters. Don't need the grappling beam either.

>> No.1819496

>, like you're supposed to.
There's a wrong way to do it?
Who said it's wrong? The developers? God? You?
Is it morally wrong? What kind of wrong is it?

>> No.1819497


About a minute. When the same trick to open Maridia didn't work I just figured it was probably just a big fat pile of nothing.

>> No.1819498


its not fake lol. its not even that good of a run. faking a 33 in game time isnt worth any ones time.


the current WR isnt on fucking PAL. Bearing in mind Hotarubi got a fucking 32 in 2004 I have no idea why SDA would even accept that run. Holy shit you guys really dont know anything. Current in game time WR is 29 with a real time of 44 minutes and 14 seconds.

>> No.1819501


Have you ever played SM? Or any Metroid, for that matter? There's tons of secret shit not shown even after you get the map for that area.

>> No.1819502


>glitched TAS

Who actually takes that kind of thing seriously though

>> No.1819507

The most obvious next direction to go in after beating Phantoon and getting the Gravity Suit is to the right through the more direction entrance to Maridia that leads you along to the broken tube and map station and then eventually back at the intact tube. If for some reason you turn around and go back through Crateria to the left, you'll end up at the tube eventually but without having seen the broken one in another area of Maridia.

>> No.1819514

There are plenty of pointless transition areas, your argument is completely meritless.

>> No.1819517

No there aren't.

>> No.1819520


None of them were their own dedicated area with a name and a huge map with only 3 shown tiles though.

>> No.1819523


any one who is relevant at speed running learned a route/tricks from a TAS.

>> No.1819683
File: 592 KB, 762x948, wt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>bombing every visible thing as a last resort is part of the exploratory aspect of the game

>> No.1819706

>the game literally shows you you can do this if you wait at the title screen long enough

Not bad design.

>> No.1819718

>that's the only place where a pipe like that appears


>> No.1819724

That's the after-completion demo actually. You don't see that under after you've beaten the game once.

>> No.1819743

Any new romhacks worth talking about?

>> No.1819756

>just ran a new rom on an emulator to check

Well, shit...

>> No.1819762

Z-Factor is the newest one I've tried that I would personally recommend.

>> No.1819773

Never heard of it, so time to try it. Thanks.

>> No.1819783

Project Base

>> No.1819794

Anyone got a list of decenet romhacks for SM in general?

>> No.1819830


>> No.1819832

It's a shame they decided to mess with the bosses in this. They should either go all out and change everything or make it only a control hack.

>> No.1819891

Piece of shit. Baits you in with nicely laid out Crateria and Brinstar, then goes completely retarded mid-Norfair and stays that way. after Speed Booster to be more exact, what the fuck was this guy thinking there

>> No.1819928

Pfft, git gud. The hell run thing is the only part of Redesign I thought was unintuitive, and in spite of that it's still one of the best ROMhacks ever.

>> No.1820057
File: 87 KB, 356x265, 1405730984365.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Metroid was never my strong suit since I usually die from difficulty bosses or get stuck without anywhere to go, but I don't think I would've been able to figure that out back when I was a kid.

If it possibly had that circle in the map to show there is a item hidden there, I would've used my power bomb and it would've broken the glass, but I think I would've never found it out Without having have watched that metroid retrospective by game trailers in 2007 and finally completing the game in 2013

Hell, I sucked at Metroid back when I was a kid to the point that I didn't know there was a run button so I could never pass that section where you had to run over the blocks and eventually gave up

>> No.1820104
File: 116 KB, 347x176, watertubes.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Was it bad game design?

>> No.1820141

Yes. Fuck that entire area

>> No.1820281


that's pathetic

>> No.1820309

Rather extreme choice of words to describe how someone else decides to enjoy a game. What's the problem if they're having fun with it? I sort of thought that was the point of video games... having fun...

>> No.1820321


having your hand held through a game based entirely around exploration is a waste of time, and yes, pathetic. especially when said game literally requires no guide because getting lost is simply a matter of being unobservant.

and i doubt reading a guide while playing metroid is fun. you may convince yourself you're having fun but really you're riding a bike with training wheels.

>> No.1820331
File: 203 KB, 1267x724, xbox-one.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Was it bad console design?

>> No.1820340


>casual "explorer" gaymer butthurt

how's dat immersion?

>> No.1820351

>and i doubt reading a guide while playing metroid is fun. you may convince yourself you're having fun but really you're riding a bike with training wheels.
You are basically saying that Super Metroid has zero positive qualities outside of the exploration factor.

>> No.1820413

It disgusts me to no end that not only are stupid fucks like allowed to touch videogames, but when you start a topic like this, it's actually discussed. All the same, let me lay it out for you kiddo:

Modern action/"adventure" games:
>cover based shooting
>enemy AI is retarded and will stay under cover, pop out and shoot and barely fight back in any effective or dynamic way
>occasional, brief 90% automated climbing segments where you literally hold a direction and occasionally tap a generic action button to perform all special actions
>occasional, 90% automated platforming segments with the same generic, catch all action button
>more plot than any 5 Hollywood movies combined and less actual gameplay than your average PS1 game.
>All optional content is DLC
>effectively run in a straight line and do what the game tells you to do
>this isn't me generalizing, play Tomb Raider, Uncharted and The Last of Us if you disagree, and be prepared to feel stupid

Super Metroid:
>no explicate hand holding (the game never literally tells you exactly where to go next, you have to look around. And while what to do next can seem obvious, the game still never literally says "go here next stupid!" and points the way with arrows)
>missable secret content and actual side areas to explore
>total amount of plot is less than 10 minutes
>open ended enough gameplay to allow you to do challenge runs, adding to replay value
>all separate actions Samus can perform are controlled individually and are actual gameplay elements, rather than fully automated QTEs or action button prompts.

There's just no comparison. Videogames died in the PS2 era and what we have now is just interactive movies aimed at kids and gun nuts.

And speaking of OP's screenshot; That was not a bad design choice. I figured it out on my own in a few minutes, as could anyone who grew up with this genre. Only morons, fad gamers, hipster retro gamers, collectors and kids would be confused by any of SM.

>> No.1820416


>> No.1820519

Because as stated in previous posts, not jumping doesn't make sense. It's the main thing you do in that game aside from rolling. Looking up and down is the only real function given to the up and down buttons, not just in Sonic 3 but in 1, 2, and CD as well. There's never a given reason why they should do anything else. Yet suddenly, it appears on an object which not only responds significantly to jumping, but also appears in multiple instances where timed jumps DO get the job done. As was said before, it teaches you the wrong way to do it the whole way through up to that point. When prior evidence suggests that jumping should do it, and suddenly jumping doesn't do it, then there are two responses: either you assume you're doing it wrong, or you try other things. And yet, even when trying other things, there's no good reason to expect up/down to be the solution. Remember that up is never used for movement, and even when you do use down, it's only in association with either hills or A button, and both of those involve rolling, neither of which applies to the barrel. Quite simply, there are no existing connections between the barrel and any other situation in the game, so there's no precedent for knowing how it works. It teaches you incorrectly multiple times, and even if you do give up on jumping and try other stuff, you will likely happen upon the correct method simply by guessing the solution rather than through any real logical determination. Whether or not you got past it on your own, I think you can agree that the whole thing was poorly designed simply by looking at all I have written on the subject.

>> No.1820605

>You guys are a bunch of causals

You're speedrunning Super Metroid, a game that's already pretty casual. If you want to impress me, go speedrun the original Metroid since that game actually puts up a fight without trying to speedrun it.

>> No.1820634

It's a glass tube. A big, unreinforced glass tube. You know what was the first thought to cross my mind when I saw that as a kid?
>Man, I bet you can break this tube!
And you could!

>> No.1820653

Back then my perfectionist tendencies were so powerful that I basically played all my games with guides whenever possible because I didn't want to miss anything.

>> No.1820660

>Videogames died in the PS2 era

Your tears sustain me.
Please post more pseudo "old timer" comments, I'll continue to enjoy both retro and new games.

>> No.1820664

No. I played Zero Mission before Super Metroid and that game pulled a similar trick near the end, so when I got to this part I kinda knew what to do already.

>> No.1820673

>waaah waaah younger generations are stupid!!11!
>meanwhile 19-20 years old kids program 3D printers to use new materials and create ORGANS, create the next car engines and re-think industries


>> No.1820679

>you may convince yourself you're having fun


>> No.1820689
File: 91 KB, 600x597, depressedfrog.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Also managed to ruin Myst for myself like this. I missed the point of the game entirely.

>> No.1820738

>tfw I ruined this puzzle because I happened to need health right there and super bomb recharged. Coincidentally blew open the puzzle.

>> No.1820739

>Modern action/"adventure" games:
>enemy AI is retarded

Yeah, because zoomers and wavers are a real pinnacle of artificial intelligence. Super Metroid is not a game to bring up if you want to talk good, challenging combat. All three of your modern examples have more difficult combat than SM.

>> No.1820754

Does the tube blow up while you're flashing? That sounds bretty cool actually.

>> No.1820768

>19-20 year olds are responsible for anything

>> No.1821056

I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend anything past "lal i jomp un et"

I was able to reason past it as a small child after realizing I could not beat the level if I tried getting past it by jumping.

When something doesn't work with one method, the logical course of action is to experiment.

>> No.1821260

I can remember trying to crack the very first one you encounter when playing as Sonic (& Tails).
Only later did I realize after I looked at the maps for that level, was how the same level was branched in order to keep the Sonic area separated from the Knuckles area.

It still puzzled me why they didn't just put in a regular wall/floor/ceiling.

>> No.1821275
File: 20 KB, 480x360, clocktower.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

No OP, this is bad game design.

>> No.1821281

That whole game is full of it though.

>> No.1821293

>Was it bad game design?

Nintendo can do no wrong.

>> No.1821301

it tells you what to do right on the rings

>> No.1821310



>> No.1821325

That's wrong.
It shows up earlier than having beaten the game, but when I'm not exactly sure. It's fairly late-game.

>> No.1821421

I'm sorry you're able to comprehend "ass-backwards control scheme that's completely impractical except for this one specific situation" as good game design. As the other anon(s) and I have said repeatedly, even if you "experiment" with the barrel you'll just end up figuring out the solution purely by accident.

I bet you're one of those guys that designs those awful Flash adventure games Retsupurae always makes fun of where you have to combine gum with a plank of wood to make a flamable liquid. Sure, it's _a_ solution of some sort, I guess. But it's not consistent or rewarding in any logical way.

>> No.1821442

I II III IIII V ... lolwut.

>> No.1821448

It's not that stupid, some clocks really do have IIII on them.

>> No.1821450

>Jumping on it ALMOST works if you time your jumps right

Motherfucking thing. Then you feel so mad when you finally figure it out.

>> No.1821453

>Such variation and inconsistency continued through the medieval period and into modern times, even becoming conventional. Clock faces that use Roman numerals normally show IIII for four o’clock but IX for nine o’clock,[10][11][12] a practice that goes back to very early clocks such as the Wells Cathedral clock. This is far from being an unvarying convention; the clock in Elizabeth Tower on the Palace of Westminster in London (aka "Big Ben"), for example, uses IV.[11]

Thank you Wikipedia

>> No.1821465


>> No.1821476


why are you such a complete faggot

>> No.1821525

anon, all western games are badly designed

>> No.1821567

I always felt the game was fantastically designed just on account of how enjoyable it was but seeing it all laid out like that makes me appreciate it even more.

>> No.1821585

Yeah, it's amazing how subtle some of the design elements are. Before I read that article I never even noticed the world of Zebes is arranged in basically a giant loop.

>> No.1821658

The battle of IV vs IIII will never be settled. I have clocks with both, it's just one of those things that there never was a standard for.

>> No.1821660

>say wrong thing
>get correct
>"waaah fucking tripfags"

>> No.1821662

Oh look, another trip to filter.

>> No.1821667

How do you filter these shitstains anyway these days? I've long since had a working greasemonkey filter.

>> No.1821676

>Filtering trips
>On a board with 3 tripfags
Shit, that filter must do you a ton of good.

>> No.1821692

1. Click "settings" at the top of the page.
2. Click "filters and post hiding."
3. Add "AnVbXjgZco" to your tripcode filter.
4. Breathe a sigh of relief as you never have to be proven wrong again.

>> No.1821703

My reaction that the breakable tube when I rented the game in blockbuster was "cool", as in the developers had a cool idea.

It wasn't a hard puzzle for the mid 90s, back then point and click games were very alive and we were used to much harder puzzles.

>> No.1821715

>playing point-and-click adventures
>faced with tube surrounded with an ocean of water
>wanting to break it
That's the biggest NO IT WILL DROWN YOU if I ever saw one using PC adventure game logic.

>> No.1821730

But there are other lakes and pools of deep water in the game that establish to the player that Samus has unlimited oxygen underwater.
Besides death is not very punishing in metroid, there are save points every couple of screens, so it's still worth experimenting.

>> No.1821731

Nope. PC adventure gamers try everything, even obvious death traps like that. Worst case scenario is you have to reload a save file.

>> No.1821753
File: 73 KB, 400x300, 4a45a724-e884-422b-a569-2f53177c35f5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

ITT: No one on /vr/ has ever seen a clock tower.

>> No.1821984

People who have little knowledge of the past generally do not understand how inconsistent many things were that we take for granted today.

Only have to go back a couple hundred years and you'll see things like the same person having their name spelled ten different ways in ten different documents.

>> No.1822132

>This whole thread

Wow. It's just like /v/

>> No.1822136

So what, you will filter any tripcode no matter the content they post?

Now I kind of want to post with mine just so when you inevitably come to the repair thread with a problem, you can't see me trying to help.

>> No.1822148

Only the people who use tripcodes improperly (which is 99% of them). I will say back when I had a working filter that wasn't a pain in the ass to use, I did accidentally filter all trip posts at one point and noticed a definite improvement in quality across all boards.

>> No.1822404

>bombing every visible thing as a last resort is part of the exploratory aspect of the game
>[rolling internally]
>checks every cranny while listening to all audio logs, reading the map and calibrating weapons system.

>> No.1822486

I used the bubble shield glitch.

>> No.1822586


Your modern game description made me remember RE6. When I go to a friend's house I usually play it with her (as I don't have a last gen console or good PC to play SF IV too), and it hurts me how the game is linear - there's literally an arrow pointing where you have to go when you press a button -, non existant AI, QTEs, DEEP STORY LOL and other cheap tricks trying to hide the poor gameplay. Never was a fan of RE series, but it scares me to know there are more of this kind of games around.

>> No.1825714

Do you even need to break this tube? You can enter Maridia from the Wrecked Ship

>> No.1825750

you're correct about that, the tube is more of a shortcut than a main entrance.

>> No.1825793

No, you do need to break it eventually to progress further through Maridia where you need to go.

>> No.1825864

You sure? the only room it seems to actually block if you enter Maridia from the Wrecked Ship is that Save Room

>> No.1825896

you don't, you can reach the tube from the top while it's intact. there's nothing below the tube but a save point.

>> No.1825903

the complaints about the tube reek of casuals who've not bothered to explore the game themselves, and rather based their entire experience off of some guide or playthrough video.

>> No.1825910

>You are basically saying that Super Metroid has zero positive qualities outside of the exploration factor.

It really doesn't. The combat is terrible, the music is forgettable, the controls are dated, the graphics are only passable and the story is nothing special.

>> No.1825916

I thought of it during my first playthrough

I thought I was doing something secret

>> No.1825968

Well you fucking weren't, right?

>> No.1826024

You are wrong. You fall through a false floor and end up back inside the tube. You cannot get above it without destroying it.

>> No.1826068

The only bad game design in Super Metroid is the way it controls.

Speaking of which, are there any ROMhacks that fix that?

>> No.1826081

That's not true. It has a nice looking cover.

>> No.1826082

>The only bad game design in Super Metroid is the way it controls.
In what way?

>> No.1826092

The use of the Select button is the most obvious one. Cycling through every single toggleable item when there are so many better options they could have chosen (And were finally forced to with the later series installments due to button limitations) is extremely clunky and throws the flow of gameplay out the window whenever it comes up. This issue only gets worse as you advance throughout the game and get more and more items that require the use of Select, bogging it down more and more.

Anything that requires directional input is also more of a pain than it should be, causing it to feel like you're fighting against the game at points.

>> No.1826096

I think there's a romhack that gives it the GBA Metroid games' controls

>> No.1826101

Strange. I don't have a problem with weapon selection at all. Maybe you should stop using the Select button? I hope you don't use the default inputs for everything.

>> No.1826104

The button binding is irrelevant, even if it's on another button (Though you would think the defaults would be placed better) the issue of breaking the pacing is still present.

>> No.1826108


>> No.1826109

>even if it's on another button (Though you would think the defaults would be placed better) the issue of breaking the pacing is still present.
Uh huh... Well I have weapon select usually mapped to the A button and changing weapons is seamless and never gets in the way of what you're doing.

>> No.1826116

Try Project Base. Avoid those shitty hacks that attempt to remove control like the GBA games.

>> No.1826140

This seems like it fixes many of my issues with the game, due to being able to use beams and the selected item easily. I'll give it a shot, thank you!

Project Base seems like it has some good ideas but I stayed away from it due to the other edits present. Might give it a shot sometime anyways.

>> No.1826263

>tfw in Ridley and the emenies wont fucking drop powerbombs

>> No.1826380
File: 58 KB, 296x224, tube.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.1826451

What sorcery is this?

>> No.1826528

I've played Super Metroid for the first time a few months ago, so my memories are rather fresh.
I personally didn't like this puzzle. I figured it out on my own, but I didn't get much satisfaction from it. I actually was frustrated by it because I wasted about thirty minutes looking for an alternative way.

It's hard to explain why exactly I didn't like it. The best reason would probably be that im employs lateral thinking, which is not requried at any other point in the game. Super Metroid is very clear about how you can interact with the environment. You open colour-coded doors by attacking them with their associated sub-weapon, there are some blocks you can remove by shooting them and there are a couple of blocks you can remove by detonating a bomb next to them. It's not made clear that it's possible to destroy structures with super-bombs.

I just skipped through the thread a bit and I pretty much agree with what >>1818940 said:
>I think it would've been better had there been other objects that would randomly break from super bombs. For instance, put similar, smaller pipe things around super bomb blocks, the player sets one off and notices the pipes crack too. Then, when they see a bigger pipe like this one, they realize it might be able to be cracked in the same way.
>The thing is that the pipe cracking thing is only used once in the game and no preexisting mechanics really mark that in any way. Also, unlike how the transition from Brinstar to Norfair is (Your way back is blocked since you don't have the ice beam, telling you your next objective is in your current zone), you have access to multiple zones with a lot of ground to cover, though the map marker is probably a big enough hint for some.

>> No.1826537

just fucking enter from the old ship. You might have to do a bit of wall jumping i cant remember

>> No.1826542
File: 293 KB, 1280x960, super missile gate.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Oh I get it, you glitched past the super missile gate here. That hardly counts faggot.

>> No.1826962

pretty sure I accesed this from the other side without using the tube entrance. Try walljumping

>> No.1826976

No you didn't. Shut up already retard.

>> No.1827136

>I find walljumping difficult
Theres a ingame tutorial anon, practice makes perfect

>> No.1827151

To be fair, walljumping is the worst part about Super Metroid's controls/movement.

>> No.1827173

I'm an ace at wall jumping. You just have no clue what you're talking about.

>> No.1827191


1. It's a glass tube.
2. There are clear signs it's a playable area.

Why not try to break the glass by planting some bombs or shooting missiles at it? Eventually you'd try to use power bombs and it'd work.

>> No.1827196

One day, /vr/ will be like that.

>> No.1827198

The only ACTUAL bad game design in Super Metroid is the point-of-no-return save in Tourian.

>> No.1827212

>old timer faggot

Please stop posting. Your elitist faggot kind is ruining /vr/.

>> No.1827216

Are you me?

>> No.1827221

My name is 4 words long.

Some people use one of my middle names as my last name. Some people use my last name. Some people use my other middle name, which is rare. Some documents have my full name. Others have my permutations of my first name and any two middle names. Others have my first and last names with abbreviated middle names. Other documents omit one of my middle names entirely.

And there isn't anything particularly strange about my name.

>> No.1827225

Because walljumping will somehow let you travel between two areas that are physically separated by barriers.

>> No.1827227


Super Metroid wall jumping sucks. Any wall jumping that isn't like Mega Man X sucks.

>> No.1827241


I've never played Myst. Tell me about it?

>> No.1827573
File: 181 KB, 800x619, that post gave me autism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.1827590

>I think the same room where you get the powerbombs for the first time require you to destroy the walls in this fashion.
Yeah, that's a common trend in the Metroid games. Even in Metroid 1, you have to use the morph ball immediately after you get it. The wall is too high to jump, and you have to roll under it.

Metroid Prime loves using this trick. Every time you get a new item, the game basically locks you in the room and forces you to use the item you just got.

>> No.1827594

>it's skill based rather than almost automatic so it sucks

>> No.1827596

This thread should be fucking deleted. It has nothing to do with retro games, it's just another I PLAY VIDEOGAMES BETTER THAN YOU, ASSHOLE jerk-off contest that happens to be about Super Metroid.

This is the definition of /v/ cancer. This EVERYONE WHO ISN'T ME IS SHIT AND UR FAVORITE EVERYTHING IS SHIT. Stop it.

>> No.1827612

>it's difficult so it's better

>> No.1827659

fwiw I'm the one that made the first comment about 'IIII lolwut' and I was just surprised when I wiki'd it after the first mention.

>> No.1827697
File: 13 KB, 512x448, Bionic_Commando_-_NES_-_You_Win!.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Was it bad game design?

>> No.1827701


I remember braking this by accident, not even realizing that there was a "water area". Shit felt awesome.



>> No.1827747


... how do I use this?

>> No.1827762

it requires skill, so it's better --- I take it you prefer handholding though.

>> No.1827768

that's what makes the thread good though

>> No.1827882

You know, it's funny you guys mentioned /v/. So let me go non-/vr/ and talk about Metroid Prime. Now everyone knows that Metroid Prime is /v/'s favorite game, or used to be, fuck if I know.

Now there's a part in Metroid Prime where you have to use a Power Bomb to get a missile tank. I think you need to do it also to get a relic or whatever. Anyway, you're in a tube and have to use the Power Bomb.

Here's the point for those with ADHD. I played Metroid Prime before and when I first got to this part. I instantly used a power bomb to get through. So my point is /v/ a shit and retarded. Especially if they played Metroid Prime.

>> No.1827909

No. I figured it out on my own from suggestions in the game, and seeing it work is still one of the defining events of my formulation as a gamer.

>> No.1827913

I'm pretty sure there's another way around

>> No.1827935

The rest of the world is pretty sure there isn't.

>> No.1827951

Name them.

>> No.1827964

You know what, I played Metroid Prime first, too, and I wonder if that influenced me. Hadn't thought about it until right now.

>> No.1827969


>> No.1827998

How about you look at the map dumbass.

>> No.1828046
File: 2.49 MB, 4280x2584, SuperMetroidMapMaridia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I drew a little challenge for you on that map, so you can prove how you can access all of it.

>> No.1828186
File: 2.45 MB, 4280x2584, maridia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Pretty sure you can do this

>> No.1828289

It tells you to "Wear in clock tower". But of course it doesn't mean the area that looks like a clock tower and is called The Clock Tower in-game, it means some unrelated room with a clock in it. Explain that shit.

>> No.1828442
File: 185 KB, 786x623, Foiled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.1828538


>> No.1828545

You have to do it quite a few times throughout the first half of the game, but Super Metroid also has that X-Ray vision thing later on that eliminates almost all random bombing (except for OP's example; x-ray doesn't show anything in that pipe).

>> No.1828645

>All these people offering their personal philosophy on how to be an free-thinking, intelligent human being.
I really hope you get sick of this soon.

>> No.1828712


>> No.1828753

Name one time you have to bomb all over the place at random to advance.

Trying to find secrets isn't advancing.

>> No.1828759


This. Wannabe-game designer faggots are the worst.

>> No.1828786

>Name one time you have to bomb all over the place at random to advance.
OP already did.

>> No.1828847

don't worry, when they release a remake of the game there'll be a big casual indicator arrow there saying "place power bomb here :)".

>> No.1828872

What's wrong with you? I wasn't even complaining about anything.

>> No.1829001

Whatever it takes to correct bad game design I suppose.

>> No.1829014


>> No.1829116



>> No.1829159

But as has been discussed throughout the entire thread, the situation in the OP isn't "at random" unless you're completely dense.

>> No.1830308

>people can easily fuck up a basic gameplay mechanic so it's better

Nevermind OP. That's what I call bad design.

>> No.1830327

Please. They think it is a flaw because they weren't spoonfed what to do.

>> No.1830337

>wall jumping in SM a basic game mechanic
>wall jumping is an extra mechanic that isn't necessary at any point in the game

>> No.1830343


>> No.1830357

sounds like another case of shit-tier American translators.

>> No.1830363

The animals show you how to do it just for kicks, there is totally another way out.

>> No.1830374
File: 73 KB, 800x365, 1305630745468.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>You have to keep in mind that /v/ is full of people trying to over criticize and purposefully set out to find flaws sometimes to the point of making them up.

This. This so fucking much. That's why they're one of the most hated boards on here. They think hating everything makes them cool and edgy, but all it really does is make them angry life hating faggots

>> No.1830380

/vr/ is not like that. It's /v/ tier when it comes to certain topics of conversation. It's becoming increasingly like /v/ all around.

>> No.1830386

At the very least, /vr/ plays video games more often than /v/ does.

>> No.1830396

you can reload the game you know, I suppose a lot of the casuals that whine about wall jumping did just that in fact

>> No.1830412

I figured it out and I was a kid if you couldnt do that much on your own then you were beyond help

>> No.1830415

Unless you, y'know, saved in the save room down there...

>> No.1830436

No he did not, and this subthread was born from an anon acting as though that's a common mechanic in the game.

>> No.1830440

And the room is optional. And it only takes ONE wall jump to get out, and who the fuck can't accomplish one, and at that point it's only teaching you something you CAN do that will not be necessary to actually beat the game.

I fail to see the issue.

>> No.1831169

Why yes actually, you can simply bomb jump.

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