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/vr/ - Retro Games

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1506602 No.1506602[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>Come out on the N64 in '97
>The 'series' remains the most serious single player challenge with the best difficulty scaling in the genre. Nothing else allows such extreme settings or works with them so elegantly.
>No harder FPS campaign, aside from Perfect Dark, has ever been released, for anything, ever.

Why is this so? Why has nothing been able match it? Why are most PC games so casual?

>> No.1506613
File: 35 KB, 320x240, Plutonia_title.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1506613

>No harder FPS campaign, aside from Perfect Dark, has ever been released, for anything, ever.

You're fucking adorable.

>> No.1506616

>>1506602
I dunno, Borderlands 2 likes to ram a broom up your arse and wipe the floor with you on the second and third playthroughs. Hell, the first playthrough is pretty much training.

>> No.1506623

>>1506602
Came for the image. Left for the bait.

>> No.1506678

>>1506613
It's funny that Doom is the polar opposite of Ge/PD in what it emphasizes, yet they are each the pinnacle of their respective styles despite being released before everything else. Doom has crazy movement and requires tons of dodging, but has relatively simple aiming, while Ge requires perfect aim with almost no room for error in order to be played at the highest level. They would compliment each other beautifully if their strengths were to be combined which will never happen.

>> No.1506681

Because campaign mode is just tutorial for online multiplayer now.

>> No.1506682

>>1506681
That can't be true for any game ever because fighting AI and other people are entirely different beasts.

>> No.1506686

>>1506682
Right and now the online multiplayer is the whole point so why make campaign mode any harder than "learn the controls to win"?

>> No.1506728

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-eoZf2Gc4

>> No.1506792

>>1506623
I'm actually with OP on this one. I've played many a shooter, from Stalker to Doom to Quake to Timesplitters to Blood to Painkiller and beyond.

Goldeneye on 00 agent is BY FAR the most challenging campaign I've ever played.

>> No.1506814

>>1506792
>Goldeneye on 00 agent
>Not 007 difficulty with everything set to max

That shit be what I talkin' bout.
>>1506728

>> No.1507083

Has any other games had so many awesome unlock able "cheats." Everything from paintball mode to unlocking dual weapons was awesome,

>> No.1507090

>>1506792
what about doom, doom 2, and final doom on nightmare?

>> No.1507092

>>1506728
>>1506792
>>1507090

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQWszjVr9rs

>> No.1507094

>>1507090
If you are going to count nightmare as legitimate, you should also count 007 difficulty. Which at its hardest is leagues more difficult than Doom on nightmare.

>> No.1507106

>>1506602
>What is Timesplitters?

>> No.1507112

>>1506613
I've beaten GE on 00 and Plutonia on UV and I would definitely say GE was harder.

>> No.1507115

>>1507094
For a long time, this level was thought to be impossible to beat on nightmare.


As far as I can tell, there are two demos of it being beaten, one is TAS, and then this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvMk1VOfWEI

>> No.1507125

>>1506678
> while Ge requires perfect aim with almost no room for error in order to be played at the highest level

CS is exactly the same and I'd say it's a lot more playable.

>> No.1507152

>>1507106
The Timesplitters series would count (and in a sense is the spiritual successor to Perfect Dark as that was to Goldeneye), but I'm not aware of any bonus/extra difficulty mode that would allow it to be of comparable challenge to the highest levels of its prequels.

>> No.1507157

>>1506602
> No harder FPS campaign, aside from Perfect Dark, has ever been released, for anything, ever.
Sure

But much better multiplayer shooters have been released since Goldeneye

>> No.1507161

>>1506792
It's challenging because the controls are clunky.

>> No.1507169

>>1507125
CS? I'm not aware of any extensive campaign mode for it. If we were including multiplayer then the highest levels of competitive Quake would be tougher to actually compete in for a given individual, but this thread is specifically about single player modes.

>> No.1507175

>>1507169
CS Condition Zero had a campaign (though it was just mp maps w/ bots in a specific order)

Still, it's the same idea. Perfect aim or you're fucked.


Also, there's

>> No.1507180

>>1507175
ignore that last bit

>> No.1507340

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAjGiZIxAiM

>> No.1508850

>>1506602
>no harder FPS campaign
The only reason the games were difficult was because the limitations of the hardware. The controller was shitty, you are forced to use a controller, the framerate was shit, et cetera. The 360 port was actually much easier than Perfect Dark on the 64, but it would be even easier with a mouse and keyboard. Besides the obvious inaccuracies of using the Valve engine PC port of Goldeneye, it is an easier game too. But here is something you can test. Emulators allow you to use mouse and keyboard to play these games efficiently. When you play these two games in particular, as well as other console FPS games such as Doom 64, you will find it is much easier. That said, Doom 64 was much harder than Perfect Dark and Goldeneye, and they were on the same fucking console. Now take this insight to compare the PC Doom, or Duke Nukem 3D, or Blood, or Descent, or really any other PC first person shooter that came out at around the same time to Perfect Dark or Goldeneye.

>> No.1508873

>>1506814
>not knowing 007 mode is just a "bonus" mode

>>1506792
Man, Control on 00 Agent
>FUCK NATALYA
>FUCK THOSE GUYS THAT SHOOT THROUGH THE GLASS
Also Aztec on 00 Agenst

>> No.1508880

>>1508850
>>1507161

>implying limitations and constraints dont make the game more carefully planned out and creative

>build me a house unlimited budget anywhere in the world
>build me a house for 250k, mountains only, more no more than 2 stories.. etc
The first one you'll get some big ass castle in the middle of the woods
The second one you'll get a creatively designed residence

>> No.1508882

>>1508873
Your comment reminds of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEaGhweF1g0

>> No.1508923

>>1508880
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with either of the things that you quoted. OP asked why the computer first person shooter games were so 'casual', and those are the fucking answers to it. Superior hardware make the PC games much easier and fluent, as stated in your first quote. Go ahead, play the games built with their restraints in their full glory on the computer with emulators, so you can bask in how fucking easy they really are with better controls and higher frames per second (as the two games in question aren't framelocked, will you look at that).

>> No.1509017

>>1508923
But the controls are a fundamental part of the game, which is designed around them. The fact that aiming properly is difficult isn't merely a 'hardware flaw', it's something the game is based around. The framerate is a legitimate flaw, and something though should ideally be fixed, but it makes sense to consider having to steady your aim a proper part of the game.

>> No.1509043

>>1509017
I never said it was a flaw to have to work within given guidelines, they did their absolute best given the hardware, but I am saying that since the computer has less limitations that the games would be easier, and that those console games would be much easier in that same environment as well. Am I wrong? Because that was all that I was arguing, as it was all this entire thread was based around.

>> No.1509076

>>1508923
Actually, I've beaten GE on an emulator with a mouse injector. It really didn't make the game any easier. Though you'd think it would, the reason it doesn't is because most of the challenge in GE does not come from your ability to aim and maneuver like a lot of other shooters would.
The only exception would be if you aren't used to the controls, which would definitely mean you would probably do better with KB+M. Though you shouldn't hold that against the game because it is something you can get used to after a little while. It's only holding you back so long as it's not counter-intuitive to how you play FPS games.

>> No.1509152

I beat Goldeneye on 00 Agent on an N64 (including all time targets). I thought the N64 controller worked really well. I doubt I'd find keyboard/mouse easier for this game, even though I play the majority of /vr/ games on an emulator with keyboard by preference.

The difficulty of beating Facility in the time limit has little to do with controls or frame-rate. It's Dr Doak's random location and the fact that you have to stand around talking to him for ages.

>> No.1509161

>No harder FPS campaign, aside from Perfect Dark, has ever been released, for anything, ever.

Idunno man. I found Killzone pretty hard for some reason.

Goldeneye is pretty baus, though.

>> No.1509165

>>1506678
What you're describing is Quake. On the pro-level.

Just in case you didn't know that. not that is does it all that well, anyway

>> No.1509173

>>1509165
Quake doesn't have headshots.

>> No.1509180

>>1509173
That is fair. But I mean Quake is the epitome of
>dodge and shoot, dodge and shoot, oh SHIIIII— rocket jump

it's retarded, really

>> No.1509193

>>1509076
First off, I am not holding any of my own physical inabilities to adapt to the hardware choices of the Nintendo 64 as reasons to condemn the games. I do not take it personally, nor do I dislike the games. I was answering OP's apparent subjective argument, as personally, I found the games much easier with KB + M, just like I did with other N64 games, such as; Doom 64, Turok 1 + 2, and Quake 2 64. For me, the challenge in a game is the difficulty of performing a task in a time frame, whether situational or given, and as a result, all else would be secondary, therefore, keyboard and mouse being the solution to my problem makes certain games much easier. It is absolutely amazing to find someone with an altering opinion on the matter, but it really isn't worth the time and effort I have put into my posts to argue over said opinions any longer, as it is going nowhere, and I shouldn't have expected them to. Have a good day sir, as well as the other.

>> No.1509207

The added objectives in harder difficulties was pretty revolutionary for the time, when most other shooters simply gave the enemies more health. You had to approach levels in different ways.

>> No.1509251

>>1509180
How is that retarded?

>> No.1509257

Can I get some of the stuff you're smoking, OP?

>> No.1509271

>>1508882
Holy shit

>> No.1509284

Also Black. That final firefight on the last level of hard mode is difficult.

On Black Ops mode it's nearly impossible.

>> No.1509292

Y'all niggas is postin in a troll thread.

>> No.1509294

>>1509152
Having beaten Agent, Secret Agent, and 00 Agent and unlocked all of the cheats by doing the required times, including invincibility, and unlocked 007 mode. I can safely say that Goldeneye is probably the most challenging video game ever made.

I don't know of many other games that have cheats that require specific level times that have to be beaten to unlock. I also did all of this before the gameshark came along. Goldeneye really is hard, and if you do not have your shit together on 00 Agent it will rape you without mercy.

>> No.1509329

>>1509294
I think Goldeneye may be the only game that actually made me pissed enough to cheat my way through (using the button codes that weren't known for several years, so this was fairly recent too).

>> No.1509440

>>1508850
>>1507161

No, I think there's more to it than that. As >>1509076 said, adding PC controls doesn't necessarily make them any easier. Maybe you can turn around faster, but then again, maybe your aim isn't as smooth. It really all comes down to what control scheme you're more experienced with.

No, there's other things that make GE/PD harder than Doom/Duke. Less player health (on Perfect Agent in PD, it's possible to die in one or two volleys from the basic enemy SMG). Intelligent enemies that hear noises and respond accordingly (if you make too much noise or trigger an alarm, enemies can and will come after you from all the away across the map. This does not happen in PC FPSs of the time). Can't dodge bullets (many enemy projectiles in PC FPS had a travel time; in GE/PD anything that's not a rocket or grenade is instant hitscan). Mission objectives that you can fail besides "don't die"; in GE/PD sometimes just mindlessly shooting everything that moves will get you into trouble. As far as I know nothing in Doom requires the combination of speed, planning, and resource management as Carrington Institute: Defense on Perfect Agent. It's an intensely unforgiving Goldilocks challenge: too reckless and you'll get killed, too cautious and you'll fail an objective, and the enemies are all packing K7's which can kill you in three shots. Having mouse controls wouldn't help matters at all.

>> No.1509476

>>1509440
>Less player health (on Perfect Agent in PD, it's possible to die in one or two volleys from the basic enemy SMG)
And there's NO way to recover your health at all. Shields and body armor protect you but they're very rare on the highest difficulties. That's how you do a tactical shooter, by making every little move count. None of that regenerating health horsecrap.

>> No.1509514

>>1509476
Sounds like the old Tom Clancy games before they became COD clones.

>> No.1509521

>>1508873

I think Control stymied me on 00 Agent for something like 4 years. I refused to continue the game on a lower difficulty, and it would invariably frustrate me and I'd quit for like months. I finally beat that shit, though. I think I got stuck on the Moonraker mission and left it for PD.

>> No.1509641

>>1506602

Someone's too young to remember the Kurosawa mission.

>> No.1509663

It's not that goldeneye is "omg so hard, git gud", it's just too easy and dumbed down for any FPS enthusiast on the non 00 difficulties.

but to make these ascertains based on the adjustable settings mode...is just stupid.
Inept as I am, even I can adjust script values in Half Life 2 SMOD that makes it even more obnoxious and needlessly stressful than anything you'd ever see in goldeneye, indeed any modder with rudimentary skills can do this with any game...ever.

>> No.1509794

>>1509663
OP here. You certainly aren't incorrect, in fact I've made some weapons/difficulty mods for HL2 myself because I was largely unsatisfied with it and wanted something more intense and tactical. My biggest problem was that I couldn't find a simple way to add hitstun to enemy behaviors (which is the biggest thing that Goldeneye has over most other shooters) that wouldn't require a huge reworking of the code.

Either way, console shooters aren't inherently casual or inferior versions of PC shooters and are capable of offering challenges up there with the best of them. What attracts me to Ge though, is that the way the difficulty settings work is so interesting. A sufficiently good player could go through a bunch of corridors, preventing themselves from getting hit at all and defeating enemies, then gaining just enough ammo from each kill in order to kill the next one and continue indefinitely. The highest settings just barely allow this to be possible.

I haven't been able to mod HL2 in order to allow for this kind of technically perfect play, at least not yet.

>> No.1510760
File: 177 KB, 187x346, hehehe.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1510760

>No harder FPS campaign, aside from Perfect Dark, has ever been released, for anything, ever.
you are a very silly man

>> No.1510776
File: 323 KB, 345x2490, doomguy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1510776

>>1510760
Just let him dream.

>> No.1510781

>>1507112
Tip: Playing on pussy mode isn't what counts.

>> No.1510814

>>1506792
>Goldeneye on 00 agent is BY FAR the most challenging campaign I've ever played.

I bet it was a challenge with the joke that is the N64 controller.

>> No.1510857

>>1507115
holy shit that video, I'm loving it
>hanging on with 7% health, nonstop stream of chaingun bullets because enemies everywhere
>got hit by a stray fireball, down to ONE percent health
>FALLS ON A BERSERK PACK

>> No.1510876

>>1510814
See
>>1509440

>> No.1510886

>>1507115
A good deal of the levels in 007 at its hardest are damn near impossible as well. The weakest guards drop less ammo than the number of headshots it takes to kill them.

>> No.1511004

>>1509207
It really saddens me that GE and PD had that back then and almost no other FPS took the idea on. Timesplitters did it a little bit, but to nowhere near the same extent.

>> No.1511052

>>1510781
>hardest 'reasonable' difficulty
>pussy mode

I think you belong in /dsg/.
Regardless, if you're talking about Nightmare difficulty, GE still has 007 difficulty as well.

>> No.1511062

I remember reading a quote from a Rare employee (From Expert Gamer if I remember right) saying that he expected only 3% of the people who played Perfect Dark to be able to 100% complete it on Perfect Agent mode. Wish I could find the issue, but hell if I'm digging through boxes upon boxes of hundreds of unorgainzed decade/s old magazines to find it.

>> No.1511131
File: 491 KB, 256x192, 1385512619989.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1511131

>>1511062
That reminds me...
>Spend years trying to 100% Perfect Agent
>Down to the last level, WAR
>Clear it after an agonizing couple of hours
>Cartridge was soaked from rain leaking into the house (I dried it)
>ERROR: Cannot save due to a hardware malfunction
>mfw

>> No.1511157 [DELETED] 

>>1506602
OMG! I see it! The pic on the right is a 9gager trying to hard to be funny. Was that you OP?

>> No.1511208

>>1511131
welp atleast you know you accomplished it

>> No.1511226

>>1511004
Thief took that ball and ran it pretty fucking hard. Probably even harder than GE, in all honesty.

>> No.1511230

>>1511226
To my shame, I have never actually played Thief. I guess I'd better get on it.

>> No.1511743

>>1509641

I don't really think a space sim counts as a shooter, although I can sort of see where you're coming from.