/vr/ - Retro Games

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Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:16:54 2014 No.1471306 [Reply] [Original]

I don't like Sonic the Hedgehog, even the classic games. The only part that's really fun is going fast, but there's always something that stops you abruptly, something that you can't even see.

People might read something like this and think "Sonic isn't about going fast. If you just go fast the whole time like an idiot that's what will happen." But to me it goes deeper than fast. I want to go fast because that's what the games compel you to do. Is there really any reason to slow down or explore? Not to mention the game often speeds you up itself with speed boosters and ramps. The standard platforming that's in the games I find very sub-par, and seem to simply serve as a transition from one speedy section to another.

Not to mention, you often can't even see when something up ahead will stop you. It feels unfair in a way. It's not like Mario where you can really predict your jumps and how to avoid enemies. Sonic is the kind of game that requires memorization of the levels to have much fun with it.

What are your thoughts? Do you think the original Sonic games are any good?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:19:24 2014 No.1471309 >>1471306 yeah sonic's gameplay was never too compelling. dat music though

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:22:23 2014 No.1471313

>>1471309
Basically what this guy said. There were some fun secrets to find, too, but I think you hit the nail on the head with:
>The standard platforming that's in the games I find very sub-par, and seem to simply serve as a transition from one speedy section to another.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:24:23 2014 No.1471317

My first Sonic game was Adventures when I got a Dreamcast. It is still one of my favorite games. I've tried pretty much all of previous Sonic games but didn't like any of them.
I casually enjoyed Sonic Heroes. It was fun. I despised every other Sonic game made after that, including Generations.
Didn't play Sonic Colors and Sonic Adventure 2. In fact I think I'm gonna try SA2 for the first time.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:25:23 2014 No.1471318

Sonic is really not a game when you go fast most of the time.
>Is there really any reason to slow down or explore?
Item collecting? Levels in Sonic are quite intricately designed and there are several paths.

I love them, I suppose I understand why someone wouldn't like them but I far prefer it to Mario.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:34:53 2014 No.1471334 Yeah the gameplay is nothing special but the games have god-tier visuals and music. Dat spritework.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:39:24 2014 No.1471342

>>1471306
>Sonic is the kind of game that requires memorization of the levels to have much fun with it.
After dying multiple times on a level, or having to start over after your lives run out, it feels very satisfying to be able to get through levels fluidly and rack up extra lives.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 20:48:23 2014 No.1471364 >Sonic 3 & Knuckles >gameplay >nothing special >not master race

>>	\|\|D.II.II\/II.\|\|D Sat Mar 15 20:54:53 2014 No.1471383 >>1471306 >Is there really any reason to slow down or explore? Yes, each level has many routes

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:00:54 2014 No.1471397

>>1471306
I love Sonic to bits, nostalgia is probably a real big factor in this, but I would actually love Sonic even more if there wasn't that ridiculously slow transition between stop and fullspeed. By the time you finally do get to full speed, you have to slow down again for some other obstacle in your way. Are there any romhacks for Sonic to give it a Mario-eske control scheme, where he is slow without holding down B (or X/A in Genesis case), and gets to full speed relatively fast while holding down the newly implemented run button? Mario has this part down to a science, and I would absolutely love this kind of gameplay in Sonic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:01:53 2014 No.1471398 >>1471397 What is Spin Dash.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:03:53 2014 No.1471405 >Not to mention the game often >Not to mention, you often can't even Using the same phrase consecutively? C-, see me after class. c- see me after class

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:05:54 2014 No.1471414

>>1471398
A means of moving quickly in one direction, by stopping, holding down a button, and releasing it to find yourself recklessly going in one direction with little control over your movements. Also that wasn't in Sonic 1, which is my personal favorite.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:22:12 2014 No.1471451

>People might read something like this and think "Sonic isn't about going fast. If you just go fast the whole time like an idiot that's what will happen."
if they think that then they're wrong. Sonic IS about going fast, its just that to be able to go fast, you have to memorize the level.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:29:59 2014 No.1471464
File: 243 KB, 600x470, sonic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I'm gonna disagree. This is coming from a guy whose favorite Sonic game (and one of my favorite games of all time) is the original Sonic the Hedgehog. Not even Sonic 2 or 3, just the first Sonic.

What makes Sonic fun isn't just going fast. What makes Sonic fun is the detailed physics. There's a lot of little intricacies to controlling Sonic. The game isn't necessarily about SPEED as much as it is about controlling MOMENTUM. The perfect formula for Sonic is a mixture of fast sections and slower, more precise platforming sections.

To say the gameplay is nothing special? I think that's completely false. It was a platformer unlike any other at the time and it established a style of game development similar to how Super Mario Bros established a new kind of platformer.

Not to mention, the level design is incredibly intricate. There are so many alternate routes and secrets. If you try to speed through it then you completely miss out on that.

I also like how the original Sonic plays more like an arcade game in some ways. It's about repeated playthroughs and racking up a score and getting all the emeralds, it's great.

Modern Sonic games are usually about nothing but speed and I find that disappointing. That's what ultimately detracted from the original series' detailed physics and complex level design.

tl;dr, Sonic da best. Anyone who thinks the game should be about nothing but speed just can't appreciate all the effort the developers put into the physics and level design.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:30:59 2014 No.1471467 >>1471451 >Sonic IS about going fast Not really. The original games had as much precise platforming as they had speed sections. The games are way more complicated than 'GO FAST'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:32:29 2014 No.1471470 >>1471306 I agree. But remember people like Sonic because of the autistic shit involved with it, not the gameplay.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:33:59 2014 No.1471471 >>1471470 >People like Sonic because of the autistic shit involved with it, not the gameplay I don't think anyone in the entire world has ever been more wrong than you are right now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:34:29 2014 No.1471473 >>1471464 It's kind of hard to control momentum when your momentum comes to a complete stop by an enemy or wall you didn't even see coming. For me platformers are all about flow, and Sonic has the absolute worst flow.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:35:59 2014 No.1471475

>>1471473

>You didn't see coming

See, this is why you roll into a ball during faster segments and take it easy when you know you don't have a good stretch of land to run on.

You're exaggerating. It's not that hard to get a good flow going even when you don't have much experience with a specific part of the game.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:35:59 2014 No.1471476 >>1471471 Oh really? Then explain why autists are drawn to Sonic like a moth to a flame? It's not because of the gameplay associated with the series, that's for sure.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:36:00 2014 No.1471479

>>1471476
>Then explain why autists are drawn to Sonic like a moth to a flame?

You know there's more than one kinda Sonic fan, right?

This is /vr/. We're about the vidya here. You're complaining about cartoon and comics fans on a board about retro video games.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:37:59 2014 No.1471486

>>1471476
>Then explain why autists are drawn to Sonic like a moth to a flame?

Because confirmation bias. Sonic autism is funny, but you people are pushing it if you think the faggotry that happens in the sonic fanbase doesn't happen elsewhere.

Protip: Go read up on the classic Star Trek fanbase sometime.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:38:29 2014 No.1471487 >>1471479 >>1471471 Someones overly defensive over a series most well known for it's autistic following on deviantart.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:39:29 2014 No.1471494

>>1471486
theres a giant difference between 'a very small percentage of the fanbase being autistic' and 'a majority (or at least a very very large chunk) of the fanbase being autistic'.

no fucking shit every fanbase has its bad eggs. but that argument is fucking stupid because you are failing to realize the scope of the sonic autism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:39:30 2014 No.1471491 >>1471487 >Overly defensive >Disagreeing with somone is being overly defensive now

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:40:59 2014 No.1471495

>>1471397

Try Sonic Lost World, you may like it a lot.

>>1471414

Try a modified version of Sonic 1 which has the Spin Dash. Many will point you to the iOS/Android port of Sonic the Hedgehog featuring HD graphics, a redone physics engine, Spin Dash, Super Sonic, additional playable characters, and more new features.

>>1471464

I agree with this sentiment. The original Sonic titles are about physics, certainly Sonic 1. Sonic 2 is about physics with a bit of exploration (trying to find lamp posts), and Sonic 3K emphasizes exploration with the Super Emerald quest.

The modern games are more about speed than anything else, and don't really have any physics puzzles or neat physics tricks. In the original game, a player was rewarded for cool platforming by some sort of awesome bit of physics fun.

Not that speed focused is bad, it's just not the same sort of game anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:41:29 2014 No.1471496 >>1471494 And you fail to realize what confirmation biases and loud-majorities are.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:41:29 2014 No.1471497 >>1471494 >He thinks a majority of the Sonic fanbase is 'autistic' I'm pretty sure the majority of the Sonic fanbase are people who got a Sega Genesis for Christmas and like going through loop-de-loops and fighting robots as a cartoon hedgehog.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:42:00 2014 No.1471503 >>1471501 if you think its a minority, you are extremely delusional.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:42:29 2014 No.1471501 >>1471496 I meant to say loud minorities there, but I think you catch the meaning anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:43:59 2014 No.1471504 >>1471503 bait

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:44:29 2014 No.1471506

>>1471473

I think flow comes when you really master certain techniques. In most occasions, the player is given opportunity to avoid the troublesome lower paths, and quick jumping and rolling can destroy any enemy. The thing with the original Sonic titles is that the roll is integral to the experience and is what really links things together on the playfield. Say there's a Badnik in front of you after a jump, which happens a lot. Where most players will jump, then stop, jump on the enemy, and keep going, a good Sonic player will jump and land into a roll to kill the enemy which allows them to maintain at least some of their momentum. Maintaining momentum keeps the flow going.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:44:59 2014 No.1471508 >>1471503 Well if it's not a minority, I'd like to see some hard data supporting it. I won't bother waiting for it because I know you don't have any.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:47:29 2014 No.1471513
File: 668 KB, 640x468, Uniracers_boxart.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1471508

God damn for a guy complaining about autism you're sure acting pretty fuckin autistic about it.

Can we talk about the video game and not the 'culture' behind it please? I'd like to talk about the nature of the gameplay, what's good and not good about it, and potentially what games are similar or did it better.

On that topic, fuckin Uniracers was a great speed-based platformer on the SNES. If you're into modern Sonic you'll really like Uniracers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:48:29 2014 No.1471516 >>1471513 Preettty sure he was just telling the autism guy to fuck off, man.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:50:29 2014 No.1471519

>>1471513
>God damn for a guy complaining about autism

Where did I complain about autism? I'm not even the person who brought it up.

And uniracers isn't a platformer. It's a 2D racer. Maybe there is some overlap, but Uniracers is based on doing tricks and avoiding some obstacles. Sonic has more of an emphasis on obstacles and enemies.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:51:29 2014 No.1471520

Some of my favorite Sonic the Hedgehog levels are the slower ones.

I like Marble Zone. Love it, in fact. It's just very well put-together and there's more secrets and tricks than you'd expect.

Even a few sections where you can go fast if you know what you're doing and play intelligently. You don't need to painstakingly memorize a later level to go fast if you just understand how the game works.

There are lots of ways to make everything you do safer even when you have no clue what's coming up.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:52:59 2014 No.1471523

>>1471306
I think Sonic, Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, and Sonic CD are all excellent. They're fast, fun, not too hard, have great atmosphere, excellent replay value. . . . I think maybe you're projecting what you think a Sonic game should be on what the game is and then getting disappointed when it doesn't meet your expectations. The Sonic games can be fast, sure, but they aren't just 2d versions of Pole Position. They are platforming games as well as fast games, so don't expect to constantly hold accelerate and blaze through it. Just try not to go into it with any expectations, and realize that there is no reward for going fast per se. The scoring system is such that you will be rewarded for killing enemies, having rings at the end of a level, and having a low time. And realize that if you're not a master, you will get hit -- this is true of any game, and rather than whine about it, you should take it in stride, because in Sonic games the mechanics are such that it's not a big problem and they're pretty easy games anyway. And don't bother collecting the emeralds.

But if you find still that you cannot get into the Genesis/CD Sonics, you might find that the Master System Sonics are more to your liking. Sonic doesn't go as fast and doesn't have as much inertia. They are more traditional platformers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 21:59:59 2014 No.1471539 >>1471467 But my problem is that the mechanics are built around going fast. The game is designed against itself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:01:29 2014 No.1471541 >>1471464 Just because the level design is intricate, that doesn't make it interesting. Mario 3s more linear levels are nevertheless more fun to explore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:03:30 2014 No.1471547 Maybe Sonic isn't "GO FAST", yet the only fun parts are going fast. The Labyrinth Zone for example is a hellhole. It just proves that the good parts are only good because of the game's great technical aspects.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:08:59 2014 No.1471554 >>1471547 >Labyrinth Zone Sandopolis is a bigger hellhole.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:10:59 2014 No.1471558

>>1471523

It's not like I went into it wanting super fast, no holds barred gameplay. The problem was when I was actually playing it, its a frustrating experience. Almost every moment of speed is followed by some bullshit enemy or spike thing you cant even see coming. As said before avoiding these things is more a matter of memorization than skill.

Its not like I want a game with no challenge to just blaze through. But this specific type of design is pretty bad imo. Hell, look at the 3D Sonic games, especially SA2 for a good example of how to create a sense of speed while also feeling fair. The Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 have a great flow and you can see everything. I feel like Sonic is better suited for 3D.

The 2D sonics in my opinion just have a really poor sense of flow and timing. They are aggravating game experiences.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:10:59 2014 No.1471559

>>1471539
>the mechanics are built around going fast
What does that mean? Possibly:
-Sonic himself can go a bit fast
-He has more inertia than most game characters
What of the above negates the sections with precise platforming? You're speaking in abstractions, sir. And moreover, what specific levels did you have a problem with? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

What is the purpose in just bitching about a great game? Why not try to enjoy it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:12:59 2014 No.1471564 >>1471547 >the only fun parts are going fast. Do you just not like platforming games? What is it that you have a beef with? Platforming? Then why do you like Mario?

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:23:59 2014 No.1471582

>>1471558
So, what, you were playing through Green Hill Zone, ran into a wall, cried about it, and then came on here and made a thread about how Sonic is a crap game? Or do you have a legitimate criticism that's not based around subjective trivialities? Have you even played beyond Zone 1, Sonic 1?

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:26:59 2014 No.1471586

>>1471464
This is true. The slow, deliberate jumps Sonic makes on uneven terrain are really satisfying, because subtle bumps and rolls in the terrain actually affect your jump. If you're good at the game you can really feel this, and it's part of what gives the game its unique appeal.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:26:59 2014 No.1471587

>>1471582

I've played through all the levels. Green Hill is actually one of the better ones

And your implication is dubious: if a game is "hard" because the field of vision sucks and it sends you into spikes and enemies before you can slow your momentum, thats not a fault of the player but of the bad game design. Its funny how whenever someone criticizes the game you blame it on the person and not that the game could actually be bad

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:29:29 2014 No.1471591

>>1471564

Well first off Mario has another button to control your speed. Second Mario has more precise controls, better designed levels (despite being more linear), you can always see whats ahead of you

The levels in Sonic seem to urge you along with their countless springs, boosters and ramps

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:38:59 2014 No.1471609 >>1471539 What does that even mean? The mechanics are built around detailed physics. Going fast is just one part of it. >>1471591 Mario actually has more imprecise physics.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 22:41:59 2014 No.1471613

>>1471591

Sonic doesn't need a button to control speed.

You should try letting your momentum carry you during slower, trickier parts. You can move without constantly holding down a part of the D-pad.

I think most complaints about Sonic's design are from people who just don't know how to play the game correctly.

It's not Mario. It's nothing like Mario. It's its own monster and you play it in a fundamentally different way. You can't approach it or its controls in any way like a Mario game.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:01:40 2014 No.1471628

>>1471613
>Sonic doesn't need a button to control speed.

This is so true. Sonic can run, coast, and roll, and terrain affects all of them. Instead of using a button to control speed, you learn how Sonic handles and you gain a great deal of control over him.

Sonic focuses a lot more on larger, more sweeping movements than Mario does. Mario moves in a pretty straightforward way and he handles great for precise platforming, but handling him feels a lot simpler and a lot less immersive than Sonic does.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:03:40 2014 No.1471632

>>1471473

If you're good at the game, it's not hard to make snap judgements about how to deal with whatever shows up onscreen in a way that maintains flow, because you understand how your character accelerates and decelerates, how you jump, how you bounce off enemies and monitors, etc. There will always be some parts of the level that can't be played like that, but when you know how to use the mechanics to get the most out of the game, the vast majority of the level can flow really well. As other posters have said, the roll mechanic is especially important for reacting to enemies quickly.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:05:40 2014 No.1471635

>>1471587
Are you new to retro games or something? Sonic is actually one of the easier games of that era. I think you're just picking it apart because you're really bad at it. It's not cheap. In fact it's actually very forgiving with the rings system. If you ran into a Badnik, then it's because you were careless, not because you couldn't see it coming. You are the one who should quit blaming the wrong thing.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:06:12 2014 No.1471637

>>1471306
>The only part that's really fun is going fast, but there's always something that stops you abruptly, something that you can't even see.

I always hated Sonic for this reason. They advertised the hell out of these games using SPEED SPEED SPEED as their main hook. Then you play it's and fucking slow paced, even slower than Mario. Marble Zone is one of the most boring worlds I've ever seen. So much time just standing around waiting for the blocks to cross the lava, or for the pendulums to come down so you can step on it to climb, etc. It's so tedious. I usually get bored by that point, play a little of the next world, and turn it off. And don't even start with the whole underwater zone where it's like you're moving through molasses, and have to stop and wait for the breath bubbles to spawn. Jesus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:08:40 2014 No.1471638 >>1471591 So, what, are all platformers that don't have a button to control your speed, are they all bad games? Or are you saying that the springs are really what ruins the experience for you?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:18:26 2014 No.1471647 >>1471497 I actually knew him from the cartoon before the games (the funny cartoon, not the serious one)

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:19:56 2014 No.1471648 I like the old ones. The pinball mechanics are unique to platformers of the time and everything else (Graphics, sound, music) is good too. I don't find the originals as satisfying as super mario but it's still good. Just drags on after a few levels.

Anonymous Sat Mar 15 23:30:26 2014 No.1471665

To me, a good Sonic level serves more as a physics playground than a racetrack. Sure, Sonic is about going fast, but only because the physics permit it. Sonic 1 had a speed cap for running, but you could bypass the speed cap simply by rolling. That's where the marble physics come into play.

In the end, a good game has levels that are designed to take advantage of the game's core mechanics. That's why I think the originals still hold up.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 00:00:56 2014 No.1471718

My main problem with Sonic is momentum. Feels like you never really have any, you never really get into any kind of zone. At least, I don't.

Oh yeah, not so fond of the combat either. I always found the "jump into them to hurt them" mechanic kind of sloppy.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 04:03:11 2014 No.1472082

>>1471306
> you often can't even see when something up ahead will stop you.
It's just you, bro. Most class Sonic players do not experience this. Sonic doesn't move so fast that you can't react to what's coming onto the screen unless you're playing with input lag (which you just might be if you're emulating.)
> It feels unfair in a way. It's not like Mario where you can really predict your jumps and how to avoid enemies.
You really can, again look into input lag.
>Sonic is the kind of game that requires memorization of the levels to have much fun with it.
No, that discribes Castlevania or Ghouls & Ghosts. Much slower games but they demand perfection to progress. Sonic, on the other hand, is one of the most forgiving games out there. It's usually possible to get through levels on one's first try without knowing what's to come.

Now if you were talking about 2D games post Sonic Advance that would be different and I would agree on some of your points. And I can't help but wonder if your views have been skewed by these later games, because what you've said about the Mega Drive games just is not true.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 04:26:11 2014 No.1472097

The first game is great because going fast is a reward for mastering the levels and physics.
The second game makes going fast really easy and isn't nearly as satisfying to play as the first game. It feels tl;dr at times, despite not really being a long game.
Never cared enough to try 3 because I thought 2 was so disappointing, and I don't really care about the extra characters.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 04:34:41 2014 No.1472103 File: 32 KB, 640x479, 1394958862310.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >the only part that's really fun is going fast

>>	\|\|D.II.II\/II.\|\|D Sun Mar 16 07:32:07 2014 No.1472262 >>1471473 >an enemy or wall you didn't even see coming. Yeah games are generally harder if you're blind Everyone ITT needs to check their ableism

>>	\|\|D.II.II\/II.\|\|D Sun Mar 16 07:36:37 2014 No.1472267 File: 55 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1471503 >50% of Sonic fans write fanfiction and make donutsteals

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:16:07 2014 No.1472302 >>1471637 Marble Zone isn't that bad. For reference, I usually complete Act 1 of Green Hill Zone in about 1:00 flat. Act 1 of Marble Zone takes me about 1:57 on average.

>>	i ain't tripfagging !!UCnc1JMdFaF Sun Mar 16 08:28:37 2014 No.1472314 File: 173 KB, 455x367, meh.ro10883-455x367.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1471306

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:43:37 2014 No.1472330

>but there's always something that stops you abruptly, something that you can't even see.

git gud, fagit

no, but seriously. I know what you mean but I do love a challenge even an unfair one.

I played Sonic Heroes recently and it's a fucking great game. Not retro but who cares. I'm at Egg Death Star now in S&K 3

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:46:48 2014 No.1472336 >>1471718 but that's like every platformer ever. does that make them sloppy? are projectiles oh so much better in your opinion? Sonic games have those too (Eggman in his mech walker with bazooka, Tails the same, Shadow using Guns in StH.)

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:53:16 2014 No.1472342

The appeal of Sonic is the visuals and the music, which is why it's so fondly remembered. The gameplay itself is pretty shoddy and the speed is a gimmick. The speed segments are cool while it's happening, but it's always more like you're watching him go fast than playing him while it's going on. From a gameplay standpoint, it's more of a flashy little cutscene.

With Sonic as Sega's flagship and Mario as Nintendo's, there's a reason why Nintendo won the war.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:56:16 2014 No.1472345 >>1472342 >From a gameplay standpoint, it's more of a flashy little cutscene. wat If you want to go fast in /vr/ Sonic, you have to actively PLAY the game. There's no hold right to win nonsense here.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:58:46 2014 No.1472347 >>1472345 Except for the segments where you just hold right to go fast to go through fancy little tunnels and loops until you get stopped abruptly. From there, you go through a halfbaked little platforming segment until it's time to hold right again.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 08:59:16 2014 No.1472349

>>1472347
>Except for the segments where you just hold right to go fast to go through fancy little tunnels and loops until you get stopped abruptly.

So basically a very miniscule part of the game. You do realize stages in Sonic games just aren't sequences of loops, right

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 09:12:16 2014 No.1472359 >>1471306 bait

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 10:47:47 2014 No.1472510 >>1471313 >The standard speeding that's in the games I find very sub-par, and seem to simply serve as a transition from one platforming section to another. fix'd

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 10:49:18 2014 No.1472513 File: 504 KB, 1280x960, Fusion 2014-02-25 15-17-10-41.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1471414 What's not in Sonic 1 again?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 11:08:17 2014 No.1472536 >>1472513 The ORIGINAL Sonic 1, not some hack or port.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 12:10:17 2014 No.1472634

of course many people on /vr/ love classic sanic but I mostly agree with OP, I always had those thoughts as a kid and hated sonic anyway because I was a Nintendo fanboy, but even in recent years when I've been more open minded and actually played them I find them to be not very fun to actually play, it's the definition of trial and error gameplay

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 12:12:47 2014 No.1472637 Is it considered normal in Sonic to use level select? Did most people back then play from the start every time?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 12:19:17 2014 No.1472641 >>1472513 >What's not in Sonic 1 again? You mean aside from Knuckles and Tails?

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 12:27:17 2014 No.1472653

>>1471559

One could argue that Sonic games are built around going fast because Sonic accelerates incredibly quickly. In the span of 1-1.5 seconds, Sonic is pretty much at full, intense speed.

It's what people mean when they say the game requires some memorization to be truly fun. The gameplay is very trial and error. There are very often pits of death, spikes, enemies, etc, that appear before you can ever see them.

If you're supposed to go slow, why the hell does Sonic accelerate so quickly and intensely, and why do they put so many loops and speed boosters? It's why the game feels designed against itself, and why Sonic actually works better in a 3D, third-person perspective.

I played it for the first time when I was 19. I probably would have given it way more of a chance when I was younger. But as an older player I was less willing to put up with its bullshit.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 12:34:48 2014 No.1472670

I'm seriously starting to wonder if people who complain about not being able to react to enemies or obstacles in time are aware that Sonic can roll or that you can jump on enemies in any position and kill them, unlike Mario where you need to hit their head. Literally you can be running toward an enemy, jump to its side, and kill it. Sonic games, especially Sonic 1 where the max speed -- barring the speed shoes -- was very low, gives you ample time to react to anything it gives you.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:18:49 2014 No.1473396

>>1472670
Yeah, honestly the ring system in Sonic is so forgiving that it's possible to beat all the zones despite not actually being good at the game, and so you get frustrated from being hit all the time. I can see someone just assuming that that's how the game is played. I bet a lot of these guys haven't actually mastered rolling, coasting, slopes, etc. When you're good at it, the game flows a lot better.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:26:49 2014 No.1473413 >>1472637 I always start over

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:30:49 2014 No.1473420 [DELETED]

>>1472670
The roller coaster segments in Sonic are basically analogous to the parts in Mario where you go down a pipe and come up somewhere else. It's a way to connect one part of the level to another and create a sense of pacing, except it does it while maintaining the sense of the level as one huge contiguous area rather than a bunch of little ones, which is important for the feel of the game. Who cares if you don't have much control over your character during these parts -- that's not the point.

Some levels abuse these things a little -- there's one part in Hydrocity where there's a really extraneous sequence of loops that just feels like pure wankery -- but most of the time they serve their purpose quite well.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:32:19 2014 No.1473424

>>1472345
The roller coaster segments in Sonic are basically analogous to the parts in Mario where you go down a pipe and come up somewhere else. It's a way to connect one part of the level to another and create a sense of pacing, except it does it while maintaining the sense of the level as one huge contiguous area rather than a bunch of little ones, which is important for the feel of the game. Who cares if you don't have much control over your character during these parts -- that's not the point.

Some levels abuse these things a little -- there's one part in Hydrocity where there's a really extraneous sequence of loops that just feels like pure wankery -- but most of the time they serve their purpose quite well.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:35:49 2014 No.1473431 >>1473396 >When you're good at it, the game flows a lot better. In other words, when you've memorized the levels and know what is coming up. The ring system is forgiving probably because the designers knew there were a lot of bullshit hits.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:40:49 2014 No.1473448 >>1473431 >In other words, when you've memorized the levels and know what is coming up. I can't remember shit about the specific level design and I've never had a problem. The game gives you a very, very large time frame to react to obstacles.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:46:49 2014 No.1473467

>>1472653
>built around going fast because Sonic accelerates incredibly quickly.

No no no. In fact it's pretty much the opposite. Sonic accelerates (flat ground, no objects) much slower compared to other games. Mario (the original), for comparison's sake, accelerates much more quickly. Not even half a second and you're travelling at full speed.

Sonic *is* built around going fast exactly because of how punishing it is to gain back the speed once you lose it. Which is kind of broken by when Sonic 2 introduces the spindash, which turns the gameplay (the pro part of the gameplay, after you know what routes are preferable and want to take advantage of the benefits of being faster, namely points & continues) from being able to maintain momentum into being able to stop on a dime and executing the dash.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 18:58:19 2014 No.1473492 >>1471558 maybe your reaction speed just sucks. I have enough time to see an enemy coming and throw myself into a roll before I get him by it. Do you expect to master the game after playing it for 2 minutes? Its not just hold right to win.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:02:49 2014 No.1473497

>>1473467
>Sonic *is* built around going fast exactly because of how punishing it is to gain back the speed once you lose it.

Actually, let me rephrase that. Sonic's basic game engine encourages by rewarding you for it at the end and punishing you for being too slow. The levels (the good ones, at least) are also designed to let you take advantage of this via ramps, loops, springs and other stuff and the reward is immediate on an aesthetic sense, as it allows for such fast (and at the time, spectacular) screen scrolling. There's also the issue of range with momentum. At accelerating speeds (low ones) Sonic's efficacy is ruined by how your main weapon (the jump) is rendered so useless, since its range increases with velocity; logically, if you're going slow, you're not going to jump far enough to bridge the gap or kill the enemy. Then there's also how the spin negates some of the drag.

The way all of this plays into our fore-knowledge of platformers is that, because of the above above mechanics, it plays much better when you aim for speed than when based around the basic platforming design wherein all you really have to do is a sequence of precise jumps.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:06:49 2014 No.1473512

>>1473492

Nobody said it was hold right to win. Nobody is expecting that. Stop using it to make others look like casual who have no idea what they're talking about. The point is that the game is designed against itself. I wouldn't want it to be hold right to win. The problem is the game has no flow and no momentum. I don't expect to master it after 2 minutes, but the game feels inherently unfair when you start playing. Its not like I'm casual because I never got that feeling when plying other platformers like Mario or even 3D Sonics. It's just poor game design.

>>1473467

But as said before, Mario has another button to control speed. If you dont hold the button he really doesnt accelerate at all. And I disagree, I think Sonic accelerates in this game faster than almost any other. Even on flat ground.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:10:20 2014 No.1473517

>>1473512
i dont know what your trouble is on it. I beat the game when I was 5 and was hardly frustrated by it. Yeah there is memorization but its not necessary. If you play the game a lot youll realize the fastest routes to play through but even if you hit something you can just recover your coins and keep going. Most of the time you can just jump or roll through incoming things. You cant just go fullspeed all the time and be mad when you run into stuff. Its like saying racing games are poorly designed because every time you hit a curve at 200mph you hit the wall so youre forced to slow down and turn which ruins the premise of the game which is about "going fast"

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:20:49 2014 No.1473528

>>1473512
>I think Sonic accelerates in this game faster than almost any other
How? Whenever I play the game it feels like I'm trudging through mud. Mario needing a button to run doesn't rule out that he accelerates quicker. Many platformers let you reach full speed near-instantly. Some don't even have acceleration.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:25:49 2014 No.1473536

>>1473512
I don't know what to tell you man. It DOES have flow and you DO have good control over your character in terms of what the game actually requires of you. It can suck if you get hit a bunch of times in a row, but honestly almost all the time I get hit it's my fault. It mostly happens when I'm just zoning out and tard-rushing my way through the game and not thinking about it; when I'm actually paying attention, the game has near-perfect flow.

You keep insisting that you have to have played the levels before for this to be the case, but it just isn't true. You really do just have to master the roll mechanic and the other details of how the character handles -- and then exercise restraint and don't mash full speed ahead all the time. Keep your surroundings in mind when controlling your speed.

There are a number of posts you haven't responded to that I think are more edifying than the ones you've been replying to. IDK if you've read them or not, but I'm curious what you think:

>>1471613
>>1471628
>>1471632

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:46:50 2014 No.1473583

>>1473512

>Aladdin- near instant
>Alisia Dragoon- instant
>Decap Attack- ~1.5 secs
>Dynamite Headdy- near instant
>Lost Vikings- near instant
>Marko's Magic Football- instant
>World of Illusion- instant
>Monster World 4- near instant
>Shadow Dancer- instant
>Ristar- instant
>Vectorman- <1 sec
>Tiny Toons Buster's Hidden Treasure- ~2 secs

>Sonic- actually 2 secs

Random genesis platformers that I could test in about 5 minutes. There's exactly 1 in there that accelerates as slow as Sonic, possibly slower. What you're saying is just not true.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:52:19 2014 No.1473603 >>1471306 I'll just have to sign this post. I can't get how the games can be loved by so many people

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 19:57:19 2014 No.1473619

My problem with Sonic is not that it's not fast enough - but that it's too slow in any case. The slower segments are slower than almost any game I've played. Being in the Marble Zone, underwater in the Labyrinth Zone, or even waiting for those platforms to go up and down in Scrap Yard. The game is just unbelievably slow; not because I expect to go fast, but it's just slow, period.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:01:49 2014 No.1473636

>>1473583

The point is probably that Sonic goes much faster. He takes around 2 secs to reach full speed but it is very fast speed. Its not like a normal platformer where max speed is rather slow and steady. Its why Sonic feels built around speed because hes so fast.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:02:20 2014 No.1473638

>>1473603
Probably because of american/japanese insularity. You tend to forget/ignore that outside those 2 regions, Sega pretty much dominated. The game's quality according to you is irrelevant. Then, like today, hype is the overriding factor. Sega had little competition during the 16 bit era in those region, and Sonic was its mascot and flagship title. That the game was also novel and, despite yours and op's opinion that is coloured by both crooked expectations/nitpicking and your inability to play it (or maybe to accept defeat as a learning experience and persevere and repeat to get better), that it was a -great- game surely also contributes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:03:19 2014 No.1473645 Here's an interesting critique of Sonic. I'm interested to see what /vr/ thinks of it. http://tevisthompson.com/sonic-and-tension/

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:05:19 2014 No.1473650

>>1473636

So your point is that it's the game's fault for you not having the requisite reflexes (or like the above post says, the ability persevere through defeat and learn your environment) needed to play it? Christ, you must surely love today's games.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:08:50 2014 No.1473658

>>1473650

No, it's the game's fault because it's pretty much the definition of artificial difficulty. How can you accuse me of disliking it because its hard, when I have beaten many hard retro games? Sonic is a game where you can't react, so it's less skill and more memorization.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:16:20 2014 No.1473674

My problem with Sonic is the field of vision. The games zoomed in pretty close to your character, which is frustrating given how much faster Sonic moves compared to other platformers. If they just brought the camera back a little I probably would have enjoyed the games more than I did.

Hell, Sega just releasing another one of their collections with an added widescreen mode would be perfect.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:17:19 2014 No.1473676

>>1473645
>http://tevisthompson.com/sonic-and-tension/

Read it diagonally and it's pretty much what OP and some others point out. "I'm frustrated by this game for this and that reasons and I can easily see changes that could've been made to accommodate my specific taste/shortcomings". You could basically say that about any game you've played enough of.

You have to both buy into the acceleration/momentum mechanic and the fact that the levels aren't designed equally to be able to enjoy Sonic as an adult, and recognize it both as a game and an effort to push the boundaries of the genre as it was back in '89.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:19:50 2014 No.1473683 >>1473658 >pretty much the definition of artificial difficulty Yep, he's a cawadoody kid.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:33:17 2014 No.1473725

>>1473638
Hey, OP and me just said we don't like it. Don't feel insulted for liking it. Also I'm from europe where Sega was obvisiously in lead over Nintendo, but in my region I didn't even see one Sega console. I don't have ANY nostalgia for Sonic and played it only on emulators over time and on my Mega Drive as I got it last year.

I even like the 3D levels in Sanic Generations a lot more than the 2D ones I played.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:35:17 2014 No.1473736 >>1473512 The game has plenty of flow. Yeah sometimes it changes it up but you must just be terrible at dodging things.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:36:47 2014 No.1473738

>>1473658
>artificial difficulty

You should stop using words whose meaning you don't comprehend. We've already established you don't know what acceleration is and now you dumb-fire this stupid rocket.

Artificial difficulty =/= your lack of knowledge of the map. A simple way to describe it vs real difficulty is when an enemy's hard bc it has tons of HP vs when an enemy's hard bc it has an advanced AI routine capable of counter maneuvering you. Basically the difference between a human controlled smoker and a CPU controlled tank in L4D.

In fact, what you're describing is pretty much the game's crown jewel. How every enemies and traps can be easily avoided by going slower (which is painful because of how slowly Sonic accelerates and how little he jumps at low speeds) BUT it's much more rewarding to do it going fast. Which you're able to do once you know the levels.

Your whole point here is trying to pidgeon-hole Sonic into a category he doesn't belong in. That you can play it first time round and beat it while playing to it's strengths without losing a life or having any fore-knowledge. You can't. Several games do this. Shmups are an obvious examples, Dark Souls is another, FTL, Super Meat Boy... (none of which have artificial difficulty BTW) The gaming world is littered with such examples. Like in those games, in Sonic, you're not supposed to. That you'll suck at the start and that you'll die is a given. That you'll learn and come back is another.

That it doesn't fit your expectations is not its fault. It's yours.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:39:48 2014 No.1473743 This thread proves how autistic the Sonic fanbase really is.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:42:48 2014 No.1473751

>>1473725
I can understand how you'd think I'd feel insulted for not liking it (so many people do when game's the subject), but despite what you may have read into my post, that is not the case. I simply find equating "I don't like it" to "It's the game's fault/the game's not good" to be the lousiest of bait when, as you can see, nobody can even make any arguments to uphold their opinion.

It's like- no one asked OP to justify his distaste of Sonic. If he wants to, though, he'd better come up with reasonable (and factual) arguments if he's going to imply that the game's quality is responsible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:42:48 2014 No.1473753 A reviewer on icycalm's website said the classic Sonic games are trash, especially Sonic 2.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:47:48 2014 No.1473769

>>1473743
And yours is proof that good things never last, I'm not looking forward to the day /vr/ is filled with people like you.

OP, your criticisms about Sonic I feel are really short-sighted. The first few Sonic games are very good and are seen as that today, not because they're flashy or some other shallow garbage. The game doesn't compel you to go fast, the game enables you to. The game compels you to learn how to maintain that speed and momentum. The entirety of Sonic games is built around this, you can skip massive chunks of the obstacles the game presents to you by knowing how to control yourself. Don't compare it to Mario, it's an entirely different kind of game. Mario is a game where you're often presented a simple obstacle course with 5+ solutions on how to jump across it. People often think this is some abstraction of how to play, but in reality it's an application of knowledge you already know, have, and are able to exploit. It's a way of saying the player is never wrong and there's tons of boundaries to prevent it from getting in the way, and tons of ways to protect themselves. All Mario platformers are designed like this.

Sonic is a really different kind of game. As I said before, it's about maintaining momentum. Memorization does play a role in this, and that's not a bad thing. Every game in the initial series consistently urges repeat playthroughs by having tons of split paths and alternate sections in levels. Replayability and memorization was built in to the game intentionally, and the game embraces it. Why do you think the game pours rings on you? Extra lives so often? Hell, don't you start with like 5 continues each with 5 lives? That's 25 retries from the get-go. You're not looking at the whole picture, and it shows, your points are paper thin and under-thought.

>>1473753
I don't care about their opinions, I care about yours. Speak for yourself.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:48:48 2014 No.1473776

>>1473738

What you're basically saying is that Sonic games are fun only when you memorize the levels so you can avoid everything when going fast.

And no, it is nothing like Dark Souls. Dark Souls is actually, totally fair. When you die, it always feels like its your fault. In a game like Sonic, dying kind of just is the way of the game, after a while you learn to accept its bullshit. Sonic is more like the worst aspects of Crash Bandicoot, but Crash doesn't come anywhere close to the stupidity of Sonic. It requires lots of retries because you can't predict or dodge out of the way. Maybe if you went entirely throught the levels going incredibly slow, but who wants to do that? You say yourself not even that is fun. If that's what you're meant to do then why is Sonic so incredibly fast and why are so many speed boosters placed throughout the levels?

It's not bad because it doesn't fit my expectations. I'm talking about my experience actually playing the game. It is just not a pleasant experience because the design is so awful. I play a game based on how the game presents itself so me. Sonic seems designed to be played in a certain way, yet playing in that way always ends up with punishment. It's what makes the game feel so fragmented. It's like the game designers didn't even know what they were doing.

I don't want a game that is hold right to win. I don't want a game that is going fast all the time. I want a game where the level design is logical and fits the style of play. Again, look at the Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 for a much better example of how to pull it off.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:51:48 2014 No.1473786 >>1473769 >The game doesn't compel you to go fast But it absolutely does. That's one of the main problems with Sonic. It's hard to play it and not feel rushed. There's always a weird sense of urgency.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:52:48 2014 No.1473790

>>1473776
>It requires lots of retries because you can't predict or dodge out of the way.

Speak for yourself. I don't know why you have such a huge problem reacting to the obstacles -- maybe there is input lag you're unaware of with your setup? -- but it absolutely is not something that requires memorization.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:54:18 2014 No.1473796 >>1473776 >When I die in Sonic it's not my fault, it's the game design's fault typical scrub asshat posting on /vr/ your opinion is complete shit and you need to stop posting

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:54:49 2014 No.1473794

>>1473769

I don't like people like you are looking at the whole picture, either. Whenever someone points out a bad thing from Sonic, you people always so it's because the person sucks at it, or because they expected the game to be something else. God forbid they actually think something in the game, itself, is actually not that good. You can't seem to comprehend that sometimes, a game's sense of difficulty isn't always legitimate. There are games much harder than Sonic that are alas much more fair and fun to play.

If someone criticizes the game becuse of its trial and error gameplay, its easy for others to say "you only hate it because you suck at it" because it makes you look like the real gamer and them look like the casual. But that's not the whole story at all.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:55:48 2014 No.1473801

>>1473738
>Dark Souls is another
>none of which have artificial difficulty

Actually, Dark Souls probably does have but its mechanics are good enough that it doesn't seem to bother people. Point being the game is lauded for having a painful learning curve that presumes you fail often before you succeed.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:57:18 2014 No.1473806

Upper path = slower and more plat, middle = semi-fast and less plat, down path = jesus christ why so fast I can't see shit. It's not every stage, but some stages are like that, others are the middle = jesus christ and down = semi fast. But overall Sonic was always a game where you miss and hit the first times until you actually memorize paths, enemies, etc. Except Metropolis on Sonic 2 because of those robots.
And OP if you like fast then just play Sonic 3 & Knuckles, that's pretty straightforward(but you need to endure Marble Garden because spikes everywhere). Sonic 1 was actually the slowest one with more plat, like Marble zone.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:58:48 2014 No.1473808 >>1473796 Are you fucking serious? Do you seriously think there are no games where dying is the fault of the game design and not the player? Some games are just made so horribly that when you die it often doesn't even feel like your fault.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 20:59:19 2014 No.1473812 >>1473769 Icycalm and co. make the most cutting edge reviews/editorials on the internet about games and gaming culture. I don't have an opinion because I avoided the game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:00:18 2014 No.1473819 >>1473786 >There's always a weird sense of urgency. wat You have 10 whole minutes to dick around in a Sonic stage. Not even Mario does that.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:01:48 2014 No.1473826

>>1473812
Except Icycalm is the one who gave Sonic the Hedgehog a 5/5...
http://insomnia.ac/archive/games/megadrive/

>Every platformer needs a gimmick and this one's is its eyebrow-peeling sense of speed, of the kind that had never even been imagined possible on a 16-bit console before. So Sonic the Hedgehog was a technical marvel, but it was also a whole lot more. It was a game calling out to you from magazine pages and store shelves with unmatched personality. A bit too easy and short-lived, and lacking elaborate stage designs due to all the freaking speed (though secret paths abounded), but why would you care anyway if blazing through it was so much fun?

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:02:48 2014 No.1473830

>>1473794
Never said any of that. There's plenty of things people don't have to like about Sonic, I just haven't found anything that the game doesn't justify. For example, I think that the Sandopolis zone levels are terrible because they run counter to one of the core mechanics, the timer. Some of the biggest, fastest, hazard free levels right there, and easily some of the most unenjoyable. Then there's levels like Hydrocity Zone, which, despite being full of water which according to you, is anti-thetical to the games emphasis and urgency to go fast, still manages to be extremely fast, tightly put together, despite requiring some careful platforming and has some very, very slow underwater sections. iirc the game runs at half speed when you're underwater. Possibly slower due to the altered physics.

>>1473812
lol.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:03:18 2014 No.1473832 >>1473826 In the Sonic 2 review, they specifically pointed out that Sonic 1 is the exception.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:08:48 2014 No.1473848

>>1473794
Thank you for providing an alternative avenue of argument rather than >>1473776 who I'll stop arguing with forthwith. He's already proven to be wrong twice and continues to offer no arguments whatsoever while being completely unable to accept that going slower is an acceptable compromise for a beginner.

>If someone criticizes the game becuse of its trial and error gameplay

But that's the whole point. You just say "I don't like the trial and error aspect of the gameplay when going fast AND I can't accept the alternative of going slow". That's it.

It's not about refusing to accept the games has faults, it's about OP and his subscribers' failure to offer any argument that isn't either false (Sonic accelerates faster) or down to (and you just did it yourself) what they consider fun.

What fun you derive from a game is not what makes it good or bad.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:09:48 2014 No.1473851

>>1473794
Honestly, no one in this thread is looking at "the whole picture," including the OP. People ITT seem very bound to their own perspective and can't see anything from any other point of view. No one seems to be able to pick up on anything in someone else's posts and interpret it in the context it was actually intended, rather than the context they already had in mind that they automatically impose on everything.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:11:19 2014 No.1473859

>>1473848

What the hell is wrong with >>1473776. It's a very reasonable well worded post that you only seem to be dismissing because its a very rational response to your arguments. Its funny how you choose to stop arguing the exact moment you're made to look wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:12:48 2014 No.1473862 >>1473826 Very superficial review, and seems heavily nostalgia-based. I agree that Sonic 1 is a 5/5, but not for the same reasons.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:13:19 2014 No.1473867 >>1473808 Sonic isnt one of them. You fucking suck.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:15:19 2014 No.1473876

>>1473848

But when you go slow throughout the entire level it feels like you're directly going against what the game intended. The fact that NORMAL SPEED gameplay is trial and error, that is the problem. If I have to go extremely slow through the level, just to learn it, just so I can finally go through it fast to have "fun", well, where is the fun in that?

That's the entire thing of what people are arguing. Playing the game the way it was meant to be played is often a frustrating, illogical experience because the game is designed so poorly.

And I'm pretty sure the enjoyment one gets out of a game plays a pretty big part in whether a game is good or bad. Of course no two people will react in exactly the same way. Why are you so willing to think that every problem people have is a fault of the player and not the game? What is considered fun or enjoyable is a large aspect of a game's quality.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:15:49 2014 No.1473873 >>1473851 >4chan

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:19:48 2014 No.1473883

>>1473848
>But that's the whole point. You just say "I don't like the trial and error aspect of the gameplay when going fast AND I can't accept the alternative of going slow". That's it.

This is mostly what it comes down to, but I think OP's real error is that he thinks you have to go "slow" to avoid the obstacles. You don't. Sure, you can't go AS fast as you can during the speed segments, or if you've memorized the levels, but the game flows at a perfectly natural pace if you're playing it correctly. As you gain more familiarity with the levels upon subsequent replays, your ability to push the speed a little farther scales in a very natural way. The level of memorization involved in Sonic is not notably different from any other game in that respect, it just has a different style of gameplay and you have to know what to expect from it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:23:49 2014 No.1473901 >>1473769 Just for the record, I've been on /vr/ since the day it was created.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:23:49 2014 No.1473902

>>1473859
I'm made to look wrong? How exactly?

>fun
Never mentioned fun once, and I pretty much avoid it since it's the plague of videogame-related arguments. It's the lousiest of praise/criticism for people who're looking for confirmation bias first and foremost. What I said is that it's acceptable for a beginner to be punished for going slow and rewarding for a more experienced player for going fast.

>dying kind of just is the way of the game
False. Get rings. Go slower.

>It requires lots of retries because you can't predict
False. See above.

>It is just not a pleasant experience because the design is so awful.
Subjective. How someone who fails to grasp the concept of acceleration is now presuming to lecture me in level design is hilarious, though.

>yet playing in that way always ends up with punishment
Yes, because you're new. Adapt, persevere.

>I want a game where the level design is logical and fits the style of play
Viable argument but no examples. Just loud, sweeping generalities from someone who seems to have trouble with the basics.

>>1473859
Good enough? Now about >>1473848 any issue?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:25:18 2014 No.1473907 >>1473901 likewise, you should know the only way to keep boards well and good is with good content.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:25:18 2014 No.1473908

>>1473867
Well it does have a few (not many though) spots that aren't very fair...
>move between elevator blocks in Spring Yard Zone
>randomly die because game insists you've been crushed
Say what you want about the badniks, the real enemy in Sonic is any kind of moving solids.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:25:49 2014 No.1473909

>>1473876
>NORMAL SPEED gameplay is trial and error
It's not. Quit saying that. The reaction times it requires are well within human limits and the punishment for failure is not that severe. Furthermore, if you get hit a lot, you're not going to be going at full-speed all the time, and there are a lot of platforming segments where it's impossible. Just because practice makes perfect doesn't mean it's cheap.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:27:48 2014 No.1473914 >>1473902 This is all subjective. If you only care about "objective quality" then it's no wonder you dislike any opinion other than your own.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:30:49 2014 No.1473918

>>1473876
It's totally possible to take advantage of ramps and stuff without going out of control. It's also possible to fly off a ramp in some random direction just to see what happens, but you will get hit doing that a lot of the time and shouldn't expect otherwise. I agree that the game could be improved by giving you more air control so you could land gracefully a larger percentage of the time when taking ridiculous leaps, but I don't consider it a serious flaw of the original game -- Sonic is just fine as it is and does a lot of things really well. It's more the sort of thing that I'd change in a sequel to give the designers more to work with -- you run out of things that can feel "fresh" in a Sonic game otherwise.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:31:18 2014 No.1473923

>>1473902

I think the main point that people are arguing is that, playing slower, adapting etc is when the game stops being fun. The game is - yes - built on going fast, unless its in one of those silly labyrinth-like zones, so to intentionally limit yourself just to make the game playable is when it no longer becomes fun. The whole point is that playing the game the way it wants you to play results in a tedious experience, and intentionally going against the game's design seems pointless anyway.

And the level design really is awful. There is hardly anything memorable about these levels at all, and all the segments of a level just feel like separate parts without any logical sequence.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:34:19 2014 No.1473934 The platforming segments of Sonic are piss-poor anyway and pale in comparison to most other platformers. Whats the point? Most of the time its just slow, slow moving blocks you need to jump on or push, or even retarded water shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:36:18 2014 No.1473938 This thread is becoming nasty.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:37:18 2014 No.1473940

>>1473876
>where is the fun in that?
>where is the fun
>the fun
>fun

Can we ban this word in /vr/? Some people think Eve Online is "fun". I'd rather fill tax returns. I'm not going to explain this again. You don't like trial and error? Say that instead.

>experience because the game is designed so poorly

Again, people keep throwing this nugget around without providing one fucking example. Not to mention taking into consideration the fact that Sonic was made in 1989 when there was nothing remotely similar. What do you expect, a new game that introduces new concepts to automatically reach the pinnacle of its design philosophy? That's ridiculous. And all of this is based around the ridiculous notion that the game is hard bc of OP's "argument" when it fucking isn't and that it doesn't allow you to go fast when it absolutely does.

Now, if you want to argue that Marble ruins the game somewhat by being the 2nd level and grinding the game to a near halt, THAT'S something reasonable. In fact, if you find the Sonic Levels thread, you'll find out that Marble is by far the least liked level despite not being even the hardest.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:40:18 2014 No.1473947

>>1473940

A game shouldn't be given a pass just because it introduced new concepts. Hell look at Super Mario Bros. in came out in 1985 and was a flawless, brilliantly designed game. It seems like you think the game doesn't deserve criticism because it was among the first of its kind

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:40:48 2014 No.1473949

>>1473940
>Now, if you want to argue that Marble ruins the game somewhat by being the 2nd level and grinding the game to a near halt, THAT'S something reasonable. In fact, if you find the Sonic Levels thread, you'll find out that Marble is by far the least liked level despite not being even the hardest.
Kinda thought Sandopolis would be, at least Marble has nice music.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:43:19 2014 No.1473958 >>1473940 People are just using "fun" as another word in their argument...Its the flaws in game design that prevent Sonic from being compelling, the flaws that have already been illuminated

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:43:49 2014 No.1473960

>>1473923
>playing slower, adapting etc is when the game stops being fun
These people don't like platforming games. Sonic does not require you to slow down excessively.
>The game is - yes - built on going fast
No it's not. In the phrase right after you even say that it's not. So don't say that it is.
>just to make the game playable
You must really fucking suck ass if you find Sonic tha Mutherfucking Hedgehog to be unplayably difficult. Why don't you play the Smurfs game or something, kiddy.
>intentionally going against the game's design
You say that over and over as though it had some meaning. They're not asking you to use Game Genie or exploit a bug. Just adopt a slightly different playstyle.
>And the level design really is awful.
I don't think you've played a game with awful level design. The levels are a bit challenging, detailed, and contain platforming elements. If you're going to keep making this argument, which pretty much everyone disagrees with, then you're going to have to try to back it up.
>There is hardly anything memorable about these levels at all
1.who gives a fuck2.you have a shit memory
>all the segments of a level just feel like separate parts without any logical sequence
1.who gives a fuck2.I don't think you're the kind of person who is good at judging logic

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:45:18 2014 No.1473970

>>1473934
>The platforming segments of Sonic are piss-poor anyway
I don't think you've played a game with piss-poor design. I do think it could have been more difficult, but it's a mascot platformer so it's not supposed to be. It did challenge me my first time through.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:45:48 2014 No.1473972

>>1473914
>This is all subjective.

If everything was subjective all the time and people couldn't form agreements based on reasonable examples and arguments we wouldn't be here in the first place. What the guy I've been arguing the most is wont to do is to start an anti-something (Sonic today, something else tomorrow) circlejerk based on flawed logic and false information that's counter to the quality /vr/'s been able to maintain.

And I haven't liked platformers since '96.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:45:48 2014 No.1473973 >>1473960 except they clearly explained they like mario, which is a platforming game.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:46:48 2014 No.1473974

>>1471306
They are the best.
Games are about gitting gud.
Sonic is not for casuals.
Casuals got involved around Sonic 2.
Sega's ad campaign worked too well.
The 1993 comics drew in a bunch of furfags.
Much like Disney.
That horrible "fandom" ruined the games for me.
I stopped caring after I beat S&K with Sonic 3.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:47:18 2014 No.1473978 >>1473972 Some things need precise rules like measurements, but art is not objective. Art's value is that people react to it in different ways. Of course, not all games are art. Sonic is more like trash, but the general principle is the same.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:47:48 2014 No.1473979 >>1473947 You're right. It was unfair to imply that Sonic has aged poorly. It was a good game then and it's still a good game now.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:47:48 2014 No.1473981 >>1473974 what are you talking about

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:49:49 2014 No.1473989

>>1473923
>so to intentionally limit yourself just to make the game playable is when it no longer becomes fun

You have to "limit" yourself in Mario by not mashing the run button all the time and instead using it judiciously. You do the same thing in Sonic, except instead of a run button, it has physics that you have to learn. I think the perception that the game is "all about speed" is what ruins this for people. Sonic is not what you preconceive it to be; it's its own thing and you have to get accustomed to it to really know what you're talking about. Just playing the game doesn't mean you understand it; you have to let go of your preconceptions about it in order to see it for what it is.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:49:49 2014 No.1473990

>>1473947
Of course you shouldn't and that isn't what I'm doing otherwise I would never have bothered bringing Marble up.

What I expect when I see game is shit is a plausible argument. There's none here other than generalities along with zero examples.

>flawless

What a hypocrite.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:51:18 2014 No.1474001

>>1473958
>the flaws that have already been illuminated
And refuted.
"It's too fast!"
Go slower then. Even at fast, humans are able to react without memorization.
"Sonic accelerates too fast!"
He actually doesn't accelerate fast at all.
"The level design is awful!"
Yup, that's why we all agree with you. No, you just suck. The reason why you're not able to provide examples is because it's you, not the game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:51:18 2014 No.1474002 >>1473978 Nice. 7/10 troll, would respond again.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:54:48 2014 No.1474010 >>1474001 Funny thing is, if Starlight was the 2nd level rather than Marble, we wouldn't even be here. But then it's not like any of these idiots have even bothered playing the game.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 21:56:48 2014 No.1474017

>>1473973
Which appears to be the only other platformer that they've ever played. And for what reason do they like Mario? Is it because of the platforming, or is it because of the run button, or is it because of the music, or is it because it's easy? Doesn't mean they're a fan of the genre.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:02:19 2014 No.1474030

>>1473908
Yeah, I don't mind this though. It's just one of the game's idiosyncrasies and it feels "right" that crushing kills you instantly under ALL circumstances. I don't think the game should baby you and give you a pass on being squashed just because the blocks don't look like evil crushers.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:03:50 2014 No.1474036

>>1471591
You don't HAVE to hit every spring, and when you do you should be making a conscious choice, so that you're prepared to react to whatever shows up on the path the spring sends you on. And if you know the mechanics well enough, you can react to most things quite well.

It's true, in most games this wouldn't even be an issue, but Sonic isn't like most games. It offers something else, and it comes with its own set of shortcomings and challenges, and it deals with those things in its own way. I don't mind getting hit every now and then, because you just pick up your rings and get right back into it. However, if you're getting hit all the time or if you have to go really slow to avoid getting hit, you're not playing it well -- and memorization is NOT required to play it well.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:09:49 2014 No.1474049 >>1474017 >first mario games >easy Yeah, I got it. You're a Sega fanboy and don't like Nintendo

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:13:19 2014 No.1474057 Sonic was always about the advertising. Not the games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh0V68c1ybw

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:16:19 2014 No.1474064 >>1474057 Dude, where were you in the 90s? Every big video game was whored out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b21Lj9bfDWc

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:26:19 2014 No.1474079

>>1473989

You people keep making this same goddamn argument over and over. "You think it's about speed, that's how you approach it, so you don't like it". No, we don't like it because the game itself is banal.

Okay, Sonic isn't about speed. It's about something else. Whatever it's about, it is still awful. It's not bad just because it didn't line up with our expectations.

Whenever people complain about Sonic, and not just in this thread, you always say the same thing. Why do you think so many people have a problem with it? Maybe the problem is in the game itself and not their preconceptions.

Also, most people started playing Mario with the run button, and its actually fun to do so. It never really feels unfair, there is hardly ever a moment where you actually need to not use it, except for very very precise jumps.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:29:48 2014 No.1474087

>>1474010

There you go again. "They don't like this game - therefore they are idiots who don't understand it and who suck at it". It's this kind of arrogant judgement that makes people hate the Sonic fanbase. You think when anyone criticizes the game they are clearly just delusional morons who don't understand anything.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:32:49 2014 No.1474091

>>1474001

Sonic doesn't accelerate fast? He goes from no speed to very fast - faster than almost any other character in a platformer - in what, 1.5 seconds?

And nobody said it was too fast. They said the speed in which the game is meant to be played doesn't fit logically with the rest of the design. The game is designed against itself. There is no sequence or flow to any of the levels. The challenge isn't in precise movement or reactions but in anticipating what bullshit lies ahead that you can't see. It is the worst type of design imaginable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:36:49 2014 No.1474105 >>1473645 Do people have thoughts on this? It's basically what some people are trying to argue but way more articulate.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:40:49 2014 No.1474118

>>1474079
>You people keep making this same goddamn argument over and over.
Unlike you, who makes a different argument every time.
>the game itself is banal.
Not one example to back this up. You either don't like platforming games or you suck. Which is it?
>Okay, Sonic isn't about speed. It's about something else. Whatever it's about, it is still awful.
Are you retarded? It's not "about" anything. It contains elements of platforming, dodging, speed, physics, boss fights, etc. Quit with your reductionist drivel.
>Why do you think so many people have a problem with it?
What are you talking about? The vast majority of people think it's a good game. There are only a few idiots like yourself that will loudly proclaim that it's objectively bad.
>most people started playing Mario
Seriously, is that the only other game you've ever played?

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:45:19 2014 No.1474127

>>1474087
So, what, you're criticizing the Sonic fanbase now? You obviously suck. You've made several statements that make it clear you don't know what you're talking about. If pointing that out pisses off a minority of crazies, then I think you're the only one who gives a fuck. It's not like you like the games anyway so why do you care if the fans insult you?

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:47:50 2014 No.1474134

>>1474118

I do like platforming games. Sonic is not a good platforming game; the platforming in it is very poor. Do you seriously think that Sonic represents a sort of pinnacle? It does things that shouldn't be in any good platformer.

And the reason I said it was "about something else" was to counter those who were putting words in my mouth that it was "about speed". I wasn't literally saying this it was about one single thing. Your failure to comprehend this simple phrasing is astounding.

Also, I never said it was objectively bad. That's your silly logic, in which you think everything can be objectively judged, as if art or entertainment doesn't have subjectivity in it. Two people will play the same game and have wildly different reactions. The problem is that you assume these reactions are based on a lack of understanding when they are actually based on a perfect understanding of what they think is a flawed game. Also, there must be a great amount of people who dislike it, seeing that you people always so "people think sonic is about speed, they have the wrong idea". Surely if you think this is so intensely true you must think this is something that happens often.

I was bringing up Mario because the other poster referenced it. Your reading comprehension is pathetic.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:49:48 2014 No.1474140

>>1474127

Don't know what I'm talking about? No, it's more like you dislike the conclusions I'm coming up with. I point out things I think are flawed, and you don't, that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. You keep saying if I don't like it, I just need to play a lot more, that my dislike is entirely my fault and not the game's. Maybe the game is just poorly designed?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 22:55:48 2014 No.1474158 Sonic lives and dies by its great visuals and music. And also the fact that it was a cool rival to Mario. The gameplay itself is pretty bad.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:04:51 2014 No.1474173

>>1474091
>Sonic doesn't accelerate fast? He goes from no speed to very fast - faster than almost any other character in a platformer - in what, 1.5 seconds?
Yeah, that's a long fuckin time, actually, seeing as how most characters take just a fraction of a second to get going. And he's not that fast. You always have at least a half of a second to react, which is more than enough time. If you can't react that fast, you just need to get better, not whine about it on the friggin internet.
>And nobody said it was too fast.
They did.
>They said the speed in which the game is meant to be played doesn't fit logically with the rest of the design.
They're wrong, being as how you can go slow or react in time, neither of which are unreasonable options. But you'd rather bitch than do either of those. Besides, there's not really much of the game where you just run forward without a care at maximum speed. You go up, down, around, forward and backward all the while avoiding unique challenges at varying levels of speed. Even if you were right, which you're not, it wouldn't matter that much because it would make up a small part of the game anyway.
>The game is designed against itself.
How? You're given all that you need to beat the game without cheating or memorizing the levels. The mechanics are not what's screwing you over.
>There is no sequence or flow to any of the levels.
1.who gives a fuck2.you suck3.memorization is not required
>The challenge isn't in precise movement or reactions
Seriously? You think it's impossible to move precisely or react to the challenges? Dude, you just suck. Admit it, accept it, move on with your life.
>in anticipating what bullshit lies ahead that you can't see.
Do you really think we all have this game completely memorized? Fuck no.
>It is the worst type of design imaginable.
Seriously? In what fucking universe is Sonic the Hedgehog the worst game ever? Are you confusing it with the 2006 game? You know they're not the same game, right?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:07:49 2014 No.1474179 Is this really necessary? Can't we just say that some people like Sonic and some people don't?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:10:20 2014 No.1474191 >>1474179 But the people who dislike it don't have good reasons for doing so.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:17:48 2014 No.1474202

>>1474134
>I do like platforming games.
Okay, well, then clearly you've made you're decision. You don't dislike platformers, you just suck complete ass at video games.
>Sonic is not a good platforming game; the platforming in it is very poor. Do you seriously think that Sonic represents a sort of pinnacle? It does things that shouldn't be in any good platformer.
Okay, so your argument is as follows: "Sonic sucks and it has stuff in it that sucks." And you never elaborate on this. And no, I don't think it's a pinnacle, but I do think it's a good game.
>Also, there must be a great amount of people who dislike it, seeing that you people always so "people think sonic is about speed, they have the wrong idea".
No, it's just a loud minority of idiots like you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:18:19 2014 No.1474206 >>1474202 But this is coming from someone whos beaten games such as Dark Souls, Lost Levels, and the first two Zeldas. Clearly I dont "suck ass" at video games. Sonic is just a horrible game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:19:49 2014 No.1474207 >>1472536 The point was, he can play sonic 1 with any of the characters and have spin dash. That's what he wants. Pick sonic, play as sonic, play sonic 1. Done. It's that simple. That was his complaint and the solution is available, period.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:21:19 2014 No.1474219

>>1473636
>And I disagree, I think Sonic accelerates in this game faster than almost any other. Even on flat ground.
I smell goalpost moving.

Instead of admitting you were incorrect you deflect to your 'real point' that he hasn't addressed because you didn't bring up.

You're a fucking asshole.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:23:50 2014 No.1474225

>>1474191
It's not that. You don't need to justify not liking something.

What you (generally speaking) need to do is to stop equating "I don't like this" with "something's wrong with the game". Or "it's not fun" with "the level design's poor". Or "I suck" with "[game] sucks". That's it.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:25:19 2014 No.1474235

>>1474140
Yeah, or maybe fuckin not. How is it the games fault that you react abnormally slow and are incapable of getting better at a game without memorizing everything and at the same time are unwilling to adapt your playstyle to get better results at least in the short term? How is not understanding the definition of the word "acceleration" not demonstrative of you not knowing what you're talking about? How is calling a good game terrible whilst comparing it incessantly to just one other game in the genre not indicative of someone who has had very little experience in games? And you call an easy game not just hard, but unplayably hard.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:27:48 2014 No.1474239 >>1474225 Well, if something is wrong with the game, that would cause someone to dislike it, wouldn't you say? And poor level design can easily make a game not feel fun. And it's not like a game can't be both hard and shitty.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:28:18 2014 No.1474242 >>1474158 Well, the great visuals and music definitely helped to broaden its appeal. It definitely has a great atmosphere, but I find its gameplay quite entertaining as well. Not the best in the series, though, in my opinion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:29:49 2014 No.1474247 >>1474179 Well, not everyone likes the same kind of games, I suppose. That's fine, but what's causing the debate are people that don't like it because they're idiots.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:30:18 2014 No.1474250

>>1474179

I'm willing to accept if someone dislikes it IF they have solid, understandable reasons. However I have never seen anyone provide such reasons. Their dislike always stems from either their horrible skill at the game (and thus blaming the game) or their lack of understanding of what the game is about. A fervent dislike of this game pretty much always represents a lack of understanding.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:30:48 2014 No.1474252

>>1471306

Thank you op i agree completely.

The came completely blue-ball's me from going fast, and aside from the speedy parts it is a pretty tedious platformer (from what i remember anyway). There is no real fear of death, you just grab another ring and you are fine.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:31:49 2014 No.1474253 >>1474191 Be honest: would anything really be a "good reason" to you? Or would you always try to write them off as idiots who don't know what they're talking about?

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:34:18 2014 No.1474259

The main point is that Sonic is ONLY fun when going fast. That's the game's only strength, at least in my opinion. So when you're not going fast, it's not fun.

This is something that really only applies to Sonic. I don't think like this for every game. Not ever game needs to go fast. But for this particular game, if I'm not going fast it just fails to be compelling and turns into a very poor game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:36:48 2014 No.1474263 >>1474247 I feel like people just aren't willing to accept that someone could legitimately dislike Sonic.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:42:18 2014 No.1474284

>>1474206
?? The Legend of Zelda is not hard. I don't know about Dark Souls, although I suspect its difficulty is overrated. Zelda 2 is supposed to be hard, but in Dark Souls and both Zelda games you have unlimited continues, so you really don't have to be that good at the game, just persistent enough to get lucky. Honestly if these are the hardest games that you have played then it's pretty clear that you are bad at games. Maybe if you mentioned something like Contra, but you count The Legend of Zelda as one of the hardest games that you have beaten? You suck.

Also Lost Levels is shorter and I believe also has continues but not unlimited.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:42:48 2014 No.1474287
File: 49 KB, 240x240, 1391430080009.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Sonic doesn't require you to approve of it. Sega has long since found an infinite cash cow to milk.

I fail to see how the platforming is bad.
I fail to see how the fun disappears if I have to go slower.
I fail to see any of this blustering.

Sonic has a certain physics depending on which Sonic game you are playing (except for 3 and Knuckles, no two sonic games are alike just in terms of gameplay).

Now maybe you don't like the physics. That's fine. Some people don't like Bonk, Adventure Island, Mario USA, etc. But the controls are tight enough to place sonic reliably where you intend once you've come to understand how the physics works in all various speeds that Sonic can go. The same with any other good platformer.

A bad platforming game has significant input lag and platforms/level design not suited for the physics involved. Sonic doesn't generally have this (there are parts where only knuckles can access in Sonic 2, etc.)

I don't know why you believe you have to go fast. There is a timer, but you have 10 minutes. Very infrequent to actually run out of time. This is a personal problem and not a problem with the game.

As for why to explore? Why go down that pipe in 1-1 in SMB? Why climb a vine? It just goes elsewhere and not directly to the goal as fast as possible. This is a personal problem and not a problem with the game.

If you don't like Sonic games, nobody gives a shit. Really. Sega spent that dime. We've all played them to death. So anybody playing them now that didn't play them then are new only to them.

Want to bring up something legitimate? Fine we can discuss real things with real qualities. Need some help? I love giving tips. Want to argue fuzzy shit? Well apparently troll bait is tasty today.

But if you think you're actually going to get masses burning their copies of Sonic Spinball or whatever the fuck your plan is, you're going to be sadly alone. No uprising. No sudden "awakening".

Just you shitting your pants.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:43:18 2014 No.1474296 >>1474225 Definitely those aren't the same things. I suppose the problem is that they are trying to justify it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:44:49 2014 No.1474301 >>1474263 this is my first post here and I didnt even read the thread but people would be going APESHIT if someone didnt like mario, even if it was legitimate.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:49:18 2014 No.1474306 >>1474252 I do think they could have cut down a bit on some of the slower parts, and I dunno, it does actually get sort of challenging later on, maybe I just suck. Still a good game but yeah, the later installments were better I think.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:51:48 2014 No.1474314 >>1474301 Not really, people bitch about Mario games all the time and it's usually just accepted as different opinions.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:52:03 2014 No.1474316

>>1474253
Well, the first game can be a little slow, or if it's too hard for someone then I guess that's ok, or if it's too easy. But these people are not trying to argue that it's not for them. They're trying to actually argue that it's objectively a bad game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:57:28 2014 No.1474321 >>1474259 You know how like crazy people say stuff and it makes sense in their heads but when they say it just sounds completely fucking nuts to other people? That's like kind of what's going on when you make that argument.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:58:58 2014 No.1474325

>>1474087
Then what the hell do you call this genius who kept insisting Sonic accelerates faster than it does who, after being shown wrong suddenly changes his argument? What do you call this >>1473978 and this >>1473914 and this >>1474049 ? Sensible people with quality arguments? Give me a break.

Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:58:58 2014 No.1474326

>>1474287
>I don't know why you believe you have to go fast. There is a timer, but you have 10 minutes. Very infrequent to actually run out of time. This is a personal problem and not a problem with the game.

I think it is a problem with the game.

Yes, you are not required to go fast. You can use all 10 of those minutes if you want. Yet there is something about playing Sonic that seems to urge you forward. The ugly industrial themes, the physics (Sonic has great speed), the lack of an interesting environment. It is unlike almost any game I've ever played in which I actively do not want to spend time skulking in these levels. The concept of being "urged forward" may seem rather abstract but it is absolutely something that I experience. I do not consider it a personal problem, I think it's a problem with the game. What is something "legitimate" to you? Stuff that has to do with the amount of content or technical issues? This desire for objectivity is what turns all gaming discussion into rote exercise.

>As for why to explore? Why go down that pipe in 1-1 in SMB? Why climb a vine? It just goes elsewhere and not directly to the goal as fast as possible. This is a personal problem and not a problem with the game.

The levels in Sonic are not fun to explore. It feels like there is no reason to explore. The levels just feel like tracks from A to B, not real environments. And perhaps because the main gameplay is so banal, and because the levels urge you along, exploring just seems like not an option.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 16 23:59:57 2014 No.1474328 >>1474321 Translation: I have no argument, so I will just call the post stupid.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:01:27 2014 No.1474332

>>1474325

Why are you so hung up on this acceleration point? Its a complete fucking strawman, just because someone confused acceleration and speed that doesn't mean everything else they say suddenly makes no sense at all. You are so desperate to keep talking about the mistake with acceleration that you are not willing to consider anything else. Your logic is utterly absurd.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:10:57 2014 No.1474343 [DELETED]

>>1474079
People aren't even aware to the degree to which their expectations influence their perception of something. It's actually a basic fact of human cognition. With a different perspective we perceive things completely differently, just like when you're waking up in the morning getting up seems like the worst thing ever, but once you do it it isn't so bad.

If you approach a game under different circumstances or with a different mindset, your experience is completely different -- and yet the natural assumption is that your experience reflects the way the game itself actually is, and nothing else. The influence of what our own minds are doing to color what the game looks like to us is completely invisible to us in most cases, even if we're good at recognizing specific instances of things that might give us an "inaccurate" perception of a game, such as playing in a bad mood or after reading spoilers or something.

To you, "the game itself is banal" because of how you see it. If you came into it with different unconscious expectations of how a game like this should work, you would perceive it differently. I can't predict whether you'd LIKE it or not even then -- there are always going to be people who don't like a game -- but you should stop acting like your own experience is definitive, or that your subjective description of the game as "slow" or "badly designed" means anything to people who don't find it slow or badly designed.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:11:28 2014 No.1474348

>>1474079
People aren't even aware of the degree to which their expectations influence their perception of something. It's actually a basic fact of human cognition. With a different perspective we perceive things completely differently, just like when you're waking up in the morning getting up seems like the worst thing ever, but once you do it it isn't so bad.

If you approach a game under different circumstances or with a different mindset, your experience is completely different -- and yet the natural assumption is that your experience reflects the way the game itself actually is, and nothing else. The influence of what our own minds are doing to color what the game looks like to us is completely invisible to us in most cases, even if we're good at recognizing specific instances of things that might give us an "inaccurate" perception of a game, such as playing in a bad mood or after reading spoilers or something.

To you, "the game itself is banal" because of how you see it. If you came into it with different unconscious expectations of how a game like this should work, you would perceive it differently. I can't predict whether you'd LIKE it or not even then -- there are always going to be people who don't like a game -- but you should stop acting like your own experience is definitive, or that your subjective description of the game as "slow" or "badly designed" means anything to people who don't find it slow or badly designed.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:11:57 2014 No.1474346

>>1474332
The only one here hung on anything is you because I called him an idiot. And I told you why I did it. He was wrong, kept changing goalposts and failed to offer anything of substance other than vacuous and unjustified defects. Again I'm looking at the thread and there's nothing of any substance. You'd realize that but apparently you seem to support the overall idea introduced by the thread without having offered any criticism of your own, to a point I'm actually dubious you even played the game.

>Your logic is utterly absurd.
You don't even realize you've been talking to 2 different people, do you?

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:15:58 2014 No.1474352

>>1474326
>What is something "legitimate" to you?
Like if it was repetitive, glitched, etc. Normal criticisms. Not "I GOTTA GO FAST, WHOOPS I HIT A ROBOTNIK THIS GAM SUX" Your argument is literally "I am incapable of playing this game without feeling the compulsion to commit ingame suicide." That's not a problem with the game. That's your weird, unique psychosis.
>It feels like there is no reason to explore.
And that's great because you are not required to do that. But if you want to, then you can.
>The levels just feel like tracks from A to B
Yeah, every video game is like that. That's how video games work. You start at point A, and eventually you progress to point B and then you win.
>the main gameplay is so banal
You obviously just don't like that sort of game. And that's fine. Go play fuckin Wizardry or some crap. And I know you're gonna say that you love platformers and they're your favorite genre. But you can't come up with any specific criticisms, nor can you think of any game to contrast it with other than Mario, you're clearly full of shit.
>the levels urge you along
Dude, it's your psychosis. Get some pills.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:17:57 2014 No.1474357 >>1474328 Was there an argument there that I was supposed to be responding to?

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:17:57 2014 No.1474358

>>1474134
As someone who claims not to be calling it "objectively bad," you probably shouldn't write stuff like the following:

>Sonic is not a good platforming game; the platforming in it is very poor. Do you seriously think that Sonic represents a sort of pinnacle? It does things that shouldn't be in any good platformer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:19:28 2014 No.1474361 >>1474140 Except for the part where you don't listen to the people responding to you and explaining why the game is actually not like you claim it is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:20:27 2014 No.1474363 >>1474332 What do you mean it's a complete strawman? It was an argument legitimately put forth by somebody. People still believe it, in fact. You're just assuming too much reason on the parts of these people. They legitimately believe that stupid shit.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 00:37:03 2014 No.1474390

I think OP made some useful points about the game in his first post even though a lot of it is misconception. The problem started when he ignored all the responses that show how the game is actually nowhere near as bad about that stuff as he said it was, and continued to insist that his take on the game is right and everyone else's is wrong. And I have no problem at all with someone not liking Sonic -- no one is going to like every game out there -- but people should at least listen to useful discussion on it to the point where they can understand why it's not actually a bad game, even if they themselves didn't get much out of it.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 01:02:33 2014 No.1474434

>>1474252
>There is no real fear of death, you just grab another ring and you are fine.

This is true. I personally don't mind it so much though; you still die plenty from instant-death hazards among other things, so you still have to pay attention and hoard your extra lives (unlike Sonic 3 where the game throws extra lives at you like candy).

However, there is an extra dynamic that's added when you have a powerup you don't want to lose, like the lightning shield in Sonic 3, and that feeling is missing otherwise. Personally I think Sonic should have more powers when he has more rings so that you're ALWAYS trying to conserve rings and have a real reason to avoid getting hit. Like maybe you get the insta-shield ability as long as you have 50+ rings, and the lightning shield ability (though not the shield itself) as long as you have 100+.

Also, the speed shoes powerup should last longer so long as you can stay above a certain speed -- something reasonable so that avoiding obstacles skillfully would be the main way of keeping your speed from falling below the cutoff.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 01:10:03 2014 No.1474446

>>1474434
>This is true.
Depends on the level. Like I thought Scrap Brain Zone was pretty hard, about the later half of the game in general, really. But then I probably am not very good. Plus yeah, there's some instant death stuff and stuff.

The thing about rings giving Sonic special powers and stuff, yeah, like they did that in the cartoon and stuff but the game based on the cartoon got canceled, so yeah maybe if they had made that game the rings would've been more useful besides just like points and when you get hit. But if you added like abilities like that in the games as they are, they'd just be like, even easier, obviously. Speed shoes idea is cool though although I don't know how practical.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 01:27:03 2014 No.1474472

>>1474446

Scrap Brain Zone is hard, sure, but you don't spend much time running around with no rings, because there are always more rings around. If you're going to die to something other than a crusher, usually it's when you get hit twice in the same general area.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 01:32:33 2014 No.1474484

>>1474446
Yeah, I'm just throwing out ideas. Obviously you'd have to have different level designs (and harder ones for the most part). But it'd be cool if they had tried stuff like that for the sequels, because it's hard to put a new spin on the same old gameplay without extending it somehow, and some of these changes could make for a really engaging new take on the concept.

The speed shoes thing should work okay so long as you only placed the powerup in areas where it would work well. Sonic 1 only has four speed shoe powerups in the entire game -- two in Green Hill and two in Springyard. As for how it would work, let's say the shoes are on a five second timer, but it only depletes as long as Sonic is going below his normal max running speed. If you dip below that speed temporarily, you can recover, but it only takes a couple screwups to lose it.

I also think you should be able to move out of a roll without jumping -- maybe by double-pressing down again while already rolling, it makes Sonic bounce up a little and land on his feet so that you're running again. You have more control when running than rolling, so it could allow for more types of level designs if you could switch between the two at will.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 04:27:22 2014 No.1474803

>>1474079
You keep throwing that phrase around, "designed against itself." It shows that you have preconceptions about what the game is supposed to be -- preconceptions that a lot of people would disagree with.

And yeah, coming away feeling frustrated may have been your genuine experience from playing the game, but that doesn't mean it's what the game IS. People who come into the game with a different mindset have more fun than you did.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 04:56:52 2014 No.1474836

>Not to mention the game often speeds you up itself with speed boosters and ramps. The standard platforming that's in the games I find very sub-par, and seem to simply serve as a transition from one speedy section to another.

>Not to mention, you often can't even see when something up ahead will stop you. It feels unfair in a way. It's not like Mario where you can really predict your jumps and how to avoid enemies. Sonic is the kind of game that requires memorization of the levels to have much fun with it.

I can already tell you aren't even talking about Classic Sonic here, but the handheld 2d games. Therefore, your opinion on classic Sonic is dumb. Memorization? In a sonic game? Has the same level of memorization as any other platformer, these games are pretty easy to begin with.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 05:10:22 2014 No.1474856 >>1474134 git gud

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 06:45:16 2014 No.1474972

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something here, but.

What's wrong with memorization? It's needed in every game, literally every game.

Even if you think it doesn't, you are subconsciously remembering how the game works and plays. That's not a bad thing, at all.

Oh and people keep forgetting that Sega makes games in an Arcade style, where memorization and replayability are key. And no one gives a fuck about needing memorization in games like Shumps or Fighters.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 07:11:46 2014 No.1474989 My problem with sonic was that I felt like I abandoned the stage. The multiple paths made me think I left some many things untouched and secrets behind

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 07:49:16 2014 No.1475003 File: 102 KB, 384x600, x-kenji_happy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] oh these fucking lovely days

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 08:08:46 2014 No.1475015

>>1474989
>The multiple paths made me think I left some many things untouched and secrets behind

that's normal. it's usually just rings or 1ups anyway. Sonic games don't want you to collect everything unless you're aiming for an S Rank.
the hidden special stages shouldn't be left out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 08:41:46 2014 No.1475037 I beat all sonic games but I could never beat a mario game does anyone else feel like this?

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 10:46:50 2014 No.1475168

>>1474348

Not OP but the fact you continue to hammer this point is extremely obnoxious. You seem to think someone could only find the game bad because of their preconceived notions and not because they legitimately find it bad. You are acting like nobody criticizing the game is using their full mental capacity, and simply saying they are influenced by their silly expectations.

Why does this only apply for Sonic? You never hear people rationalize criticism for other games in that way. It's only Sonic where people say "You had different expectations than what it is".

I expected Sonic. I didn't go in saying "If it's not exactly like that, it's trash". I wanted to play this game and see how it was. I really don't agree that our expectations SO UTTERLY INFLUENCE how we view a game. They may play a part, but it's not like they are so unbelievably strong that it completely overpowers anything else. If people find Sonic's gameplay annoying, maybe they just find it annoying. It's not necessarily because it doesn't match their expectations. Your post is ridiculously condescending.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 11:01:20 2014 No.1475183 >classic Sonic games >not good Just kill yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 11:18:14 2014 No.1475203 >>1473940 >you'll find out that Marble is by far the least liked level despite not being even the hardest That's surprising, Marble is one of the only reasons I ever replay Sonic 1. But then, Marble Garden is my favorite Sonic zone.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 11:53:32 2014 No.1475243 Has anyone here just... tapped the down button while running to roll? It's really useful. You become invincible to enemies. You also gain a lot of momentum on downward slopes.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 12:08:31 2014 No.1475271

I never liked Sonic because the games always felt very start/stop. One moment you're zipping along, the next your momentum is completely gone because of, say, a rock or something. It's not that I want to go fast all the time, but it's the very abrupt change in pace that always annoyed me. I think the flow is a real problem. I wish the change in momentum was more gradual and not like stopping on a dime.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 12:09:31 2014 No.1475272 >>1475243 I thought everyone knew that. Then again, given this thread...

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 14:34:37 2014 No.1475479 >>1471306 Seems like you don't even know what's a platform game. Only smart people will go fast without getting killed, because they memorize the map and mob spawns. Blame the player, not the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 14:45:07 2014 No.1475497 File: 137 KB, 634x619, 1360454058484.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Sonic >hard

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 15:16:37 2014 No.1475541 >>1475497 I have a friend that really likes Sonic but plays none of the 2D games because they're way too hard (basically he sucks at them).

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 15:18:07 2014 No.1475545

>>1471318
This. Sonic CD was very nice with this, I loved exploring the Sonic CD levels and often found myself nearing the 10 minute mark. Yes, the level design in some of the zones is "god, why" level, but I really enjoyed it. Not to mention the awesome art and great music.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 15:58:37 2014 No.1475618 Going fast in platformer is asking for trouble, and only the most skilled of players go crazy fast. Since you assume Sonic is about racing around at the speed of light, you're bound to do terribly. Take the game a little more slowly to start with.

Anonymous Mon Mar 17 17:42:42 2014 No.1475805

Because of this thread, today I played and completed Sonic 1 for the first time. End boss was easier than Sonic 2 (only other Sonic I've completed). I got 3 chaos emeralds.

Zone reviews:
>Green Hill
Good zone. Lots of going fast, lots to explore. No surprise instadeaths.
>Marble
Waiting for blocks is not fun. Worst zone.
>Springyard
Reasonably fast, lots of exploration, only a few surprise instadeaths. Those vertically moving pillars you have to wait for are annoying but generally a good zone.
>Labyrinth
Water physics sucks, lots of lag. 2nd worst zone.
>Starlight
This is supposedly another fast zone but it doesn't have the good feel of Green Hill.
>Scrap Brain
Best zone. Awesome music, precise platforming action. Lots of cool traps that don't feel unfair. But only the first two stages are good (and too short), and then we're back to the fucking Labyrinth Zone again. GOTTA GO SLOW.

Overall I rate this game not as good as Sonic 2.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 17:47:41 2014 No.1475813 I quite like Sonic 2 but what the fuck were they thinking when they came up with the Casino Nights 2 boss. It's just too hard to hit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 17:54:41 2014 No.1475834 >>1475805 I fucking hate those vertical moving pillars in Springyard. What a horrible design choice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 19:08:27 2014 No.1476057 >>1475813 I had this problem as a kid but it's actually pretty easy, and one of the more fun bosses in the game IMO. Just spindash up the walls and jump at him

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 19:46:26 2014 No.1476169 >>1475813 You're trying to hit him with the flippers aren't you?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 19:49:26 2014 No.1476180 >>1475813 God that boss is fucking hard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 17 22:45:57 2014 No.1476572 >you can't see what's coming Are you confusing the old games with Advance 2?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 01:02:04 2014 No.1476854 File: 51 KB, 387x326, 1394075683990.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1471487 Isn't that autistic following made up of actual children?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 01:12:27 2014 No.1476862 >>1475805 >and then we're back to the fucking Labyrinth Zone again Was there any reason for this? What was wrong with using actual Scrap Brain for a third act?

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 02:12:18 2014 No.1476943

>>1476862
They wanted to have Robotnik send Sonic "into the depths" with that cutscene at the end of act 2, or something like that, but they were too rushed to make a new tileset for it so they just used the assets from Labyrinth Zone. They really should've just used a palette-swapped Scrap Brain Zone tileset or something instead, maybe reusing a few objects from Labyrinth Zone like the spears.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 06:00:53 2014 No.1477181 >>1476572 This. Anyone who has played both the classic games and Advance 2 and 3 can tell you there's a big difference in the level of bullshit.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 13:17:21 2014 No.1477661

>>1476854
Can't really tell online anymore. Rampant stunted maturation, so you end up with two-hundred-pound two-year-olds everywhere. Someone you think is like 10 based on their mastery of English and their attitude in disputes is actually 23 or some shit. Societal degradation.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 13:24:51 2014 No.1477680

>>1476854
Mostly, but you'd look like a complete asshole calling children -- who likely create this shit because their home life is made terrible by a messed up parent -- autistic. So it's best to ignore their age, because not insulting people isn't an option.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 16:43:34 2014 No.1478104 >>1477661 That's pretty disturbing. I know several years ago, a lot of 11 - 14 year olds did the "autistic" things and it appeared to be just a phase. It's hard to imagine grown adults doing the same.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 18:25:21 2014 No.1478315

Okay, let's stop discussing autists and such, guys. I've finished Sonic 2, my first game in the series - it was really awesome. Back in the day I tried Sonic with a "Gotta go fast" mindset and didn't like it, but taking it as a platformer with elements of going fast made all the difference, also music was just great. Now I'm going through Sonic 1 and was wondering what to go for next. Sonic 3(& Knuckles?) and then what? Advance ones or Adventure? I have an unmodded GC so tell me if it's worth getting the Adventure ones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 19:07:21 2014 No.1478402 >>1478315 You should play Sonic CD! I recommend the Steam version because it lets you switch between the Japanese and American soundtracks and also play as Tails.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 19:49:12 2014 No.1478472

>>1478402
I don't want to install Steam just for one game, in fact I don't want to install it at all.
Any other platform with those additions? Wiki says the enchanced version is also for android, is it the same? Since I read the CG/PS2 version is just the original port, and a bad one/

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 20:21:12 2014 No.1478537

You ever own just one game your entire life or just a very long period of time? Sonic 2 was mine. Any sonic game that wasnt 2 didnt earn my respect. Not even Knuckles in Sonic 2, I mean, it was a neat gimmick but i just didnt care about gliding in Chemical plant zone

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 21:01:43 2014 No.1478613

>>1478472
Don't go for a mobile port. I think the Xbox 360 and PS3 versions are the same as the Steam version from what I've read on Metacritic and elsewhere, so you could get those I guess(if you actually have either system), but honestly, I don't understand what the beef is with Steam really.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 21:16:12 2014 No.1478632 >>1475541 the 3D games are pretty tough as well. especially all side missions in SA2B

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 18 21:29:43 2014 No.1478651 >>1478472 >I don't want to install Steam just for one game, in fact I don't want to install it at all. get with the times, fucking idiot. the Sonic collection on steam is totally worth it, even for multiplayer or 2P reason.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 22:27:33 2014 No.1478787

. Sonic, on the other hand, can survive all types of hits (except for being crushed and falling into pits) as long as he has one ring. Instead of being an optional layer of influence on top of the core gameplay like coins, rings are integral to the players survival. Players need rings to survive, and when Sonic gets hit, all of the rings that have been collected scatter out from the player. This design creates a type of dependency on rings not to mention a degree of static space that is functionally equivalent to attack-attack-heal. As long as the player has rings and can pick up at least one after being hit, they're free to play recklessly. This static gameplay generally occurs during boss fights because of the enclose fighting area.

Sonic is much more aggressive than Mario. With the ability to curl up into a spiky ball, sonic can destroy enemies while rolling along the ground or traveling through the air. While in the air Sonic can attack enemies from above, below, or from the sides. This design reduces the amount of influence a single enemy has on the player when compared to the Mario enemies. Instead of forcing the player to jump on top of the enemies to defeat them thus engaging the game's core dynamic (gravity), Sonic can barrel through enemies in so many ways that the enemies hardly influence players at all. As long as Sonic is in ball form, for the most part, he's safe.

The enemies in Sonic don't feature much interplay. They're either slowly moving about, throwing/shooting projectiles, and/or exposing their spikes. The enemies are are either alive or completely destroyed. The enemies aren't typically arranged to layer together or positioned in a way to influence the player to maneuver in unique ways.

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 22:29:33 2014 No.1478795

>>1478787
Sonic enemy elements also don't telegraph themselves to give the player enough time to effectively react to them. The fireballs and Piranha Plants in Super Mario Brothers reveal themselves on screen before Mario has a chance to run unexpectedly into them even when moving at top speeds. Many hazards and enemies in Sonic are positioned in a way that players have to memorize their whereabouts to avoid them safely. The more memorization these elements force on the player, the less play exists in the gameplay experience.

For these reasons the enemies in Sonic aren't designed to carefully shape, influence, and develop the platforming/action gameplay experience. More so, the Sonic enemies simply add an occasional annoyance/threat that increases the amount of memorization in the game rather than play.

Contrary to what many believe, the classic Sonic games (Sonic 1, 2, and 3) aren't so much about speed as they are about flow. However, moving between one game idea and the next smoothly isn't a quality exclusive to Sonic. Even Mario and Mega Man have the ability to go from the beginning of a level to the end without stopping. At their best, the Sonic games create a strong sense of forward momentum. At their worst, the player is stopped frequently and slowed to a crawl progressing through gameplay ideas that aren't very interesting.

The 2D Sonic games have always wrestled with the limitations of the screen display. The faster Sonic moves, the harder it is for players to see upcoming hazards in time to make informed decisions. If you can't see that bump or rock coming, they become jarring stops in the flowing action

Anonymous Tue Mar 18 22:30:34 2014 No.1478801

>>1478795

The amount of breaks in Sonic's flow increase with speed of Sonic's movements. This is especially troublesome. The better/faster a player gets at the game, the more likely they'll come to an abrupt stop. Being slowed by enemies or bumps is easy enough to deal with. But when you can't see an upcoming pit in time, it could cost you a life. Most players resort to memorizing deadly parts of a level to progress safely.

What's worth noting about Sonic's level design isn't the mechanics, how the elements influence gameplay, the interplay (or lack thereof), or the layered counterpoint (which it doesn't have). What works with Sonic's level design is that it's functionally similar to a roller coaster or amusement park ride. The lack of significant variation due to the shallow level and enemy design puts the emphasis on the game "experience" rather than the game "play." Sonic is all about experiencing the "ride" that's composed of the strong forward momentum. The more cool looking obstacles, jumps, loops, secrets, and enemies the designers can put into a level regardless of how well these elements shape the gameplay, the better.The more elements the player can zoom past, the more they feel like they're outracing even if these elements are basic or shallow.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 10:59:36 2014 No.1479794

>>1471317
I can't understand this, Adventure was really average at best, and pretty much none of the 3D Sonics are good anyway.

You should probably at least try SA2 and Colors, even if SA2 is just SA1 with half of the BS cut out and Colors is a botched Unleashed clone that actually ends up better for it.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 11:37:07 2014 No.1479825

>>1479794

I think Sonic-style gameplay works better in 3D. The Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 have better flow and you have a much wider field of vision. Not to mention they manage to have a much quicker pace without feeling like "hold right to win". It's like they realized the flaws of the original games and decided to get rid of them for 3D.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 11:45:36 2014 No.1479829

>>1479825
I think so too. dude, I'm having a blast with SA2Battle. it's a great game with lots of replay value which is something the 2D games also didn't really have unless you play it with different characters and all.

anyway, SA2 has lots of secrets to unlock and every level has a hard mode in the end too. lots of items to find as well and there is the progression that if you don't have certain item you can't go further in later stages. mystic melody places were a good idea.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 13:55:59 2014 No.1479997 >>1471306 >The only part that's really fun is going fast Well that's the point.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 14:01:29 2014 No.1480009

>>1471464
>Not to mention, the level design is incredibly intricate. There are so many alternate routes and secrets. If you try to speed through it then you completely miss out on that.

When the secrets are just extra lives it doesn't really make it fun to find.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 14:03:59 2014 No.1480014 >>1480009 Next you're going to be saying the fun of exploration in Zelda 1 is invalid because most of the secrets are pay me for the door repair.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 14:04:29 2014 No.1480015 >>1471306 I fully agree. The only people who like Sonic games are the ones who played them on their childhood. Since I grew up with games like Mario 3/World, Yoshi's Island and Donkey Kong Country, I find it very difficult to enjoy the Sonic games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 14:05:29 2014 No.1480016 Does Sonic Adventure 2 have any free roaming like SA did? I've played the first few levels and it just jumps from a stage to another.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 14:05:29 2014 No.1480017 >>1480014 >Heart Containers >Secret items >Upgrades like the Blue tunic, Magic Sword It's totally different. Zelda is an Action/Adventure game not a platformer. Compare it to Mario or something.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 17:22:11 2014 No.1480454

>>1478613
>>1478651
I only have an old laptop. I'm not playing any games on it except for VNs and I'm not gonna bloat it with Steam to just play one Sonic and never use again. I'm gonna try android port as I don't have any 7th generation console yet. Read that the pc/x360/ps3 is just the mobile ported anyway.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:11:11 2014 No.1480607

>>1480454
Are you seriously retarded? It's not "bloat," faggotmaster. It's just a fuckin digital distribution program. You can uninstall it when you're done. But if you want to play Sonic on a tiny screen that you have to hold and play with uncontrollable touch controls, then you be the unreasonable idiot. Yeah, Steam is definitely malware, isn't it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:14:11 2014 No.1480617 >>1471306 Fully agree.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:29:11 2014 No.1480653

>>1480607
I'm just gonna ignore you sucking Valve's dick. And the screen is bigger than what I played first 2 Sonics on anyway. But those touch controls are a major shit, I'll have to get a ps3 controller for this I guess. Since ps2 doesn't seem to work for anything other than games that support it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:31:11 2014 No.1480657 >>1480016 you can do stage select in the menu if you finished them first. if you play story mode it's one after another. plenty to choose from.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:33:11 2014 No.1480661 >>1480454 >clearly has never used steam in his whole life >shits on it without knowing it. fucking fag.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:39:11 2014 No.1480678 >>1480661 >don't want to use it >shits on it I thought better of you, /vr/.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:39:11 2014 No.1480682

>>1480653
>>If you're concerned about Steam taking up resources on your computer, why not just install it, play the game, and then uninstall Steam when you're done?
>HURRR U SUCK VALVES DICK DO YOU WORK FOR VALVE OR SOMETHING??

Do you even know if a PS3 controller will be compatible? Are you seriously willing to pay extra money to buy a controller just to be able to play a worse version?

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 18:45:11 2014 No.1480701

>>1480678
/vr/ is just telling you what's convenient and steam has the best sonic versions. the only thing it doesn't have is Sonic Heroes. still the PC version is best. if your laptop is shit, invest in a better one because you sure as fuck don't want to emulate any sonic game other than 2D ones. And you don't want to play them on various consoles switching around like a retard.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:09:11 2014 No.1480756 >>1480682 Never said I'd buy one, I'll borrow it. Yes, it's compatible. No, it's not a worse version, it's the same.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:19:11 2014 No.1480782

I actually decided to boot up Sonic 1 again, after not really playing it much over the years. I had it as a kid, but I always preferred Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, because spindash and easy level select.

As I go into Sonic 1 again, I find that a different mindset has changed my view on the game. It's not so much about speed as it is ball manipulation. You don't want to go fast and clear the level quickly, but instead you want to try your best to navigate to spots that are hard to reach. This means using both your jump and your roll to reach optimal speed, which requires you to find ideal spots where you can gain that speed using your jump and roll. For example, there was a point in Green Hill Zone where to get to the top of a high platform, it was necessary to build up speed, run up a wall at high speed, and then jump off of the wall as I'm running on it. This turned my running speed into a strong burst forward and upward, which gave me enough height and distance to get to the high platform.

There is something I wonder about with this, however. I tried many times and failed before trying to search the level for a better speed-up zone. In doing so, I found speed shoes, which gave me more than enough speed to do the wall-jump maneuver I described above. However, if I needed that high speed in the first place, then why wouldn't the designers want to give me the ability to speed like that as needed? (ie. the spin dash). As I think about it, I believe that there are two good reasons. The first is that to have such speed available at all times would simply lead to reckless, thoughtless play. You wouldn't gain any understanding or appreciation for the level layout and how it challenged you to find the best speed point, but instead you would just instantly get going fast and pull off the move. A bit more convenient than running around looking for zones to do stuff, but ultimately undermining other aspects of the game.

(cont)

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:29:11 2014 No.1480805

>>1480782

(cont)

The second is that the running around really seems to give the game a needed exploratory nature. The act of needing to find the best areas to attain speed, or in my case finding a necessary power-up in the right spot was part of what made the game fun. To give you instant access to such speed seems like it would be too simple, and again would encourage that same reckless, thoughtless play that I mentioned before. Furthermore, there's some actual challenge involved with finding a power-up and then keeping it. You had to dodge your way through a decent set of obstacles in order to get from the hidden speed shoes to the point where you needed to use them, and where you needed to use them also required proper demonstration of ability. I could imagine a similar type of design being made for the Lightning Shield in Sonic 3, where the player has to navigate a difficult section between the lightning shield and the place to use its second jump to reach a higher ground.

To me, Sonic 1 really seems more like a game of ball control than anything. You achieve fast speed, but mostly as a result of knowing to jump and roll in the right places, or knowing where to get and how to use certain power-ups. In this way, it's more of a puzzler than your average platformer, in the same way that Comix Zone is a puzzler beat'em up thanks to its sapping health from punching boxes (which encourages you to find alternate routes that won't needlessly drain your life). Sonic is more exploratory in nature than we typically think about, especially with the first game. I wouldn't mind having spin dash sometimes though, as at points I just want to go up a ramp without having to find a place to speed up first. I will say that they do a good job of not making you need to go very far for this action.

(cont)

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:33:11 2014 No.1480814

>>1480805

(cont)

I will say that I am a little bothered sometimes that I can't just let loose and run. This is one of my favorite parts of Sonic games, but whenever you try in an early title, it seems inevitable that you will run into an enemy or off a cliff or into spikes or some other nasty hazard. The only real way to 'go fast' seems to be to memorize a path and practice it. This likely appeals to some, but personally I don't enjoy it as much as I do the exploratory nature of Sonic. If I want to go fast, I just want to go fast, without much practice or thought required. This is something I do enjoy about newer games in the series (and some fangames actually), even if they do also encourage memorization for the best routes. Still, I understand that this style of play is rather contradictory to the exploration nature of Sonic, and so I live without. If anything, I can just boot up those other Sonic games to enjoy the 'gotta go fast' approach.

Sorry for long rant, just thought I'd chime in after reading some stuff in the thread and also after revisiting Sonic 1 in a different mindset. I definitely see now how they were influenced by pinball, because there's a lot of similarities in how you have to control the ball around the field. Probably have more thoughts but not the time to express them right now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:34:11 2014 No.1480816 >>1480782 >>1480805 >>1480814 Oh yeah, I will say that I enjoy Sonic CD and even Sonic 3D Blast for their exploration-leaning Sonic play.

Anonymous Wed Mar 19 19:35:11 2014 No.1480819

>>1480756
>No, it's not a worse version, it's the same.

Reasons why the Android version is worse:
Onscreen buttons(even with the gamepad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mon0RR3Qmw))
Smaller screen
Screen must be held, laid flat on a table, or leaned against a wall at an angle
Inconvenient to set-up. The PC version once it's downloaded you just double-click the icon and start playing. The android version you have to plug in your controller, waste time getting the controller from your friend and back to him, plug in speakers/headphones, figure out where you're gonna put the screen, etc.

Reasons why you think the Steam version is worse:
hurr fuck steam
have to spend a few minutes making a steam account(which you WILL have to do at some point)
"bloat"(which might translate to you having to endure waiting a few extra seconds when you boot the computer while you still have steam installed)

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 19 20:05:11 2014 No.1480901 >>1480607 Damn dude. You're going to catch an early death if you're always this pissed off and high strung about small things.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 14:29:11 2014 No.1482698 >>1480819 I don't think you'd know how playing it is more convent for me. But anyway, I found that pirating pc version doesn't require steam so I'm going to do that. I may install steam and buy it when I get a better pc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 14:38:11 2014 No.1482710 >>1482698 Also anybody checked the DS Sonic collection? I hear it's just emulating the original games, is that true? I want to get it for Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 15:22:11 2014 No.1482807 >>1482710 Or would I be better off getting a PS2/GC collections? It would be ideal to emulate on PSP but I can only find rom in smd or md without separate audio file and have no clue how to convert it for the PSP emulator.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 15:26:11 2014 No.1482816 File: 144 KB, 320x215, pic related best sonic game.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >NOO Way >I can't BELIIIEEEEVE THISSS

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 15:30:11 2014 No.1482826 >>1482710 Yep. The emulator is a modified version of Jenesis DS. >>1482807 Personally, I'd get Mega Collection.

Anonymous Thu Mar 20 15:34:11 2014 No.1482834

>>1482816
Aside from Egg Golem, that is probably the Sonic boss that has murdered me the most times due to homing attack sending me out into nowhere and causing me to fall outside of the map to my death.

Tell me, DC-fags: is there hope for a fair fight in the DC version? Signed, a GC faggot playing the ports.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 15:44:11 2014 No.1482848 >>1482834 The trick is not to home attack at all in this one, just keep normal jumping. Never played the GC port, but the PC Director's Cut seemed easier to beat. Either that or I got gud.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 19:32:11 2014 No.1483424 >>1482710 >>1482826 Uh, anybody had problems with the DS Classic Collection? Every rom I tried gives me blank white screens at start and doesn't do anything more. I have a DS Lite.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:03:11 2014 No.1483501 >>1471317 >In fact I think I'm gonna try SA2 for the first time boy you're in for the best sonic experience.

Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:07:11 2014 No.1483504

>>1471306
Sonic 3+K is great. It's got some awful levels (Marble Garden) and some brilliant ones (Lava Reef, Ice Cap)

The only reason everyone thinks Sonic is all "go super fast" is because of marketing. It wasn't terribly fast until Adventure happened and all the momentum control went out the window. On the other hand, Adventure 1's still fun as fuck because SPINDASH JUMP OVER THE ABYSS SHORTCUTS just feels great.

also, everyone's like "the screen's too zoomed in" FUCK OFF

It really isn't. The only times you're going fast enough to be unable to react to something dangerous are also sections where there's nothing you need to react to (except in Marble Garden -- even with the sound and knowing that they're there, those fucking chain balls are the worst). Otherwise, most shit's pretty navigable. I haven't even memorized any of the classic Sonic stages. Sonic doesn't even hit max speed when holding right from a standstill in the classics -- he stops accelerating and he's at a reasonable pace. Only if something else boosts you will you actually go faster while running.

Hell, going fast continuously is the reward in Sonic. In Sonic 1, you had to roll to get speed. Rolling is a bit dangerous -- controls are locked if you jump from a roll, but you bypass its speed cap (Sonic 2 and 3 drop this, but their design is less inertial in general). In Sonic 2, there are sections (like in Chemical Plant act 2 near the boss for the first example that comes the mind) that are slow, methodical sections for those who haven't played before but can be zipped through at maximum speed for the experienced player

Not a big Sonic 2 fan -- it's got some crap level design (hello Metropolis, hello Oil Ocean, hello Mystic Cave, fuck Wing Fortress).

There are pretty nicely designed stages in Sonic 2 (Aquatic Ruin surprisingly -- you never have to touch the water ever if), but it's got a damn sight more crap ones than the other Sonic games on the Genesis.

had to cut stuff from this post

Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:22:11 2014 No.1483536

>>1479829
SA2's great, but I think the Knuckles/Rouge and Tails stages are awful. Emerald hunting is boring and a chore, and Tails stages are like Eggmans but with worse design (none of Tails' stages are as good as Cosmic Wall in the slightest).

Sonic/Shadow stages are fantastic. Maybe Pyramid Cave and Crazy Gadget aren't that great at worst. Final Chase is awful.

The best thing about SA1 is that you can play only the fun bits from the get-go -- Sonic stages are good until Sky Deck (hell, Red Mountain is fantastic), Tails stages are pretty okay, Knuckles stages are somewhat fun but a bit easy, and the rest you can ignore if you don't like it. Hell, Perfect Chaos isn't even worth the hassle of clearing the game with everyone.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:48:11 2014 No.1483586 >>1483536 This. SA1 is better than SA2 for me. Dat atmosphere in Sonic's Lost World. Oh man.

Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:55:11 2014 No.1483602

>>1471558

I've heard this from a surprising number of sources lately. I dunno, I guess a lot of people are coming to the original Sonic games lately via ports? Whatever the case is, I don't identify, but it's probably because I memorized the levels from years of playing as a kid. Even back then, though, it wasn't frustrating-- the ring system is extremely forgiving and you're back on your feet within moments.

I dunno, even if I grant you this as true, I don't see it as a problem with the games.

Anonymous Thu Mar 20 20:55:11 2014 No.1483605

>>1483536
>but I think the Knuckles/Rouge and Tails stages are awful. Emerald hunting is boring and a chore

I don't think so at all. I found them fantastic, challenging and generally fun. I love Pumkin Hill and Dry Lagoon.

I don't like Tails/Eggman stages much though.

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