/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.1456594]

So, is the CRT boner just for sprites? Because this looked fine once I set the TV to 4:3.

[Anonymous No.1456615]

>>1456594
depends on the television you use, as the televisions scalers on new tvs can really mess up on n64 games due to the hardware AA

other than sprites looking amazing on crts there is the issue of input delay but unless your playing 2d games (especially nes) you won't get messed up by it too much

[Anonymous No.1456616]

>>1456615
By mess up, how hardcore? Just like, jaggies everywhere or will the game look jumbled? I feel like I should know this, but I avoided CRT threads like the plague when they were a daily thing because 1) Fuck Generals and 2) All I had were CRTs. But mine finally died and I went out and got this sex machine. I really don't notice much of a difference.

Sorry for the sideways picture, my phone is on death's door and very confused.

[Anonymous No.1456664]

All that filters and scanlines stuff is a distraction. There are two reasons to get a CRT:

Latency
Motion Quality

You can achieve the same motion quality on a 120Hz LCD using hardware black frame insertion if you're emulating, and get pretty close with software black frame insertion. If you're using an ordinary 60Hz LCD, or if you're using real consoles, it's going to look like shit. For latency, the CRT is still unmatched.

[Anonymous No.1456681]

What I really want to know is whay kind of latency these types are talkjng about as if it makes games impossible. For various reasons I don't have a crt right now, so I mostly play on an lcd and I do just fine in punchout, dodonpachi, ikaruga, etc. If there is a consistent latency in the ms range shouldn't your brain automatically adjust after a few minutes of playing anyway?

[Anonymous No.1456684]

This whole "CRT!!!!" stuff is the /vr/ equivalent of being a graphics whore, ie, it's embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.1456691]

>>1456664
I'd like to add "native resolutions, no ugly scaling artifacts" to that list.

[Anonymous No.1456695]

>>1456681
maybe they just suck at games and need an excuse?

[Anonymous No.1456696]

>>1456684

CRT has gameplay ramifications as well, as the games moved from the tube displays to the panels, the mechanics of certain genres changed drastically.

Case in point, fighting games will not be the same until that latency is no longer a factor.

I pray for the new guilty gear.

[Anonymous No.1456709]

>>1456696
You realize in competitions that modern 2d fighters have been on lcds for the past 8 years right? Stop talking out of your ass. The only ones that aren't are the retro fighters and thats from a mixture of not being main stage events and sd graphics looking better in sd.

[Anonymous No.1456734]

>>1456616
i know conker's bad fur day looks really bad at the main menu screen where the squirrls are drinking.

unnaturally large jaggies to the point of almost being called jumbled in spots.

pretty bad when a crt looks like it has four times the resolution and sharpness of a modern television.

[Anonymous No.1456736]

The whole "muh latency" thing is totally blown out of proportion. I play almost all of my games on a 32" LCD (Samsung, 1080p, if it matters), and I've never noticed any issues like that with Game Mode active. Hell, I never even noticed the supposed "huge" drop in quality when using Game Mode.

About the only part of the CRT argument that still stands is the graphical part, and I'll give them that. Most of those older games do look a bit better on a CRT, and there's some graphical tricks that just won't work on a newer TV, like blending and fake transparency. I don't really think latency is much of an issue anymore, though.

[Anonymous No.1456746]

>>1456709

I'm going to school you now because you've opened up your mouth when clearly you should've been listening.

Yes, 2d fighters get played on lcds, the particular panel they use is a model that has a 4 millisecond delay across the board. Depending on the game, the output from the HDMI also has latency issues that vary.

The design decisions being made by the developers are IN RESPONSE to the monitors playing like shit.

Why do you think that street fighter 4 plays chunkier than any of the other entrees into the series *INCLUDING SF II.*

Why is there an 8 frame buffer on grab resets in an Arksys title? Why no FRC?

Why does Marvel have flight/unflight blocked at a certain height?

Every one of these decisions is made to ensure the game is still playable by you, the asshat buying the fucking LCD screen with god knows how many post processing effects and a shit load of latency.

Shut your yap if you don't have a fucking clue what you're on about.

And don't "lolitrolledu", we all know you're just that ignorant.

[Anonymous No.1456764]

>>1456746
You're a fucking moron. Most of that is for balancing and polish issues, and SF4 plays "chunkier" than 2 in what way? Pro sf4 players that transitioned from 2 and 3s don't seem to have all of these horrible issues you do. Or am I just not realizing that I am speaking to fucking Daigo right now on /vr/? You assigning software design choices to your illogical latency bogeyman is hilarious. You need psychiatric help.

[Anonymous No.1456767]

>>1456764
It's like you're ignoring his whole post

Sad people like you exist on this board, let alone anywhere

[Anonymous No.1456772]

>>1456767
Its like you're really samefagging hard because your rambling about shit that you're assigning to lcds with absolutely no basis whatsoever is being laughed at.

[Anonymous No.1456780]

>>1456767
>>1456746
Unless you can produce a single interview where any dev has said any of those design choices were for "muh evil lcd buyers" you're just throwing out a bunch of shit that you obviously have no inderstanding of and hoping that because you throw numbers in therr that it looks "official"

[Anonymous No.1456785]

>>1456772
I'm not samefagging, but I am a person who uses a CRT to play retro games. I've done a lot of research on the topic and I prefer using them now for playing my older systems.

They look better because of scaling and I want to avoid input lag.

If you really don't know why CRT's are better for older games then you shouldn't be on /vr/ at all.

http://gametz.com/FAQ/picking-good-crt-tv-old-school-game-systems--462367.html

[Anonymous No.1456796]

>>1456785
And that has nothing to do with fighting games being mysteriously designed with gimped mechanics because of evil lcd users refusing to use superior crts. Which is in his fucking head. I agree that crts are nicer for retro gaming, his statements were just fucking retarded to anyone that follows the fgc. I'm actually saving up for a pvm right now, I just hate when retards make shit up and try to pass it off as fact.

[Anonymous No.1456807]

>>1456796
Then I guess I fucked up, but I was responding to the entire initial >>1456684

Which led me to your post.

My mistake then. I'm not him, I assume he has shit to backup the street fighter 4 lcd argument.

But hey, you know the benefits of crt's for retro gaming so I have nothing else to say

[Anonymous No.1456815]

>>1456807
It's all good. Sorry for assuming.

[Anonymous No.1456820]

>>1456815
Same, sorry as well.

Good luck on the pvm

[Anonymous No.1456853]

I started playing some of my PS1 games on my 720p Bravia over component and I have no complaints.

Everything is looks crystal clear.

Ya CRT is the best for retro games, but LCD in by no means bad.

>>1456615
I can confirm that a lot of N64 games look borderline unplayable on a modern LCD. 480i games like Rogue Squadron and Perfect Dark look decent, but Ocarina of Time looks like a mess. I even used S-Video!

Hopefully the N64 HDMI mod can help the situation.

[Anonymous No.1457093]

You have to use an external upscaler for the original consoles to be decent on LCDs

Emulation on PC with filters on a 120hz LCD will be just as good a CRT

[Anonymous No.1457101]

>>1456853
5th gen games typically run at low framerates so the main benefit of CRTs (lack of sample-and-hold blur) is irrelevant.

>>1457093
If you've somehow modded the hardware (LED backlight) for black frame insertion it can be as good as a CRT. Software black frame insertion is a huge improvement over 60hz sample-and-hold but still obviously worse than CRT.

[Anonymous No.1457143]

>>1456746
>>I'm going to school you now because you've opened up your mouth when clearly you should've been listening.

That sounds like something that some asshole with a DBZ avatar on a forum would say.

[Anonymous No.1457157]

I just guess it can't be helped, every board needs it's boogieman,something to bitch about and blame for everything, and /vr/'s are SCUMMY RESELLERS and MUH LCD LATENCY

[Anonymous No.1457169]

>>1457157
You can leave you know. No one is forcing you to come here.

[Anonymous No.1457178]

>>1457169
I'm not complaining, it's somewhat hilarious and something to be expected really

[Anonymous No.1457205]

>>1457169

Now I'm not saying that this guy is clearly butthurt...

But he is.

[Anonymous No.1457216]

>>1457157
But resellers actually are a problem.

[Anonymous No.1457230]

>>1457216
No they aren't. You're just jealous someone got to the games before you. You guys would be bitching about the evil hipsters stealing all the games at the flea market if resellers didn't go there.

[Anonymous No.1457235]

>>1456681
>I mostly play on an lcd and I do just fine in punchout
I suppose that depends what your definition of "just fine" is because if you're using a real NES to play Punch Out on a HD LCD you're damn sure not gonna beat Punch Out.

>>1456709
>modern 2d fighters have been on lcds for the past 8 years
Because for the last 8 years they've been played on consoles capable of outputting native hd signals.

There is inherent delay in LCDs, yes. Some are much worse than others (yes, you may suck at MvC3 because of your display). Tournament displays are carefully selected for minimal lag but ALL displays will have dramatically increased lag if they're fed standard definition signals because upscaling creates delay. That's why people pay $350 for top of the line upscalers.

The simple fact is that if you distribute your retro console's signal between an LCD and an SD CRT and go back and forth between them, or even if you hook up to one and play for a while then do the other for a while with a fast reaction game and you still try to claim there's no difference you're some kind of retard. If you're okay with the difference for your particular gaming style that's fine but it's straight up willing ignorance to deny it.

[Anonymous No.1457251]

>>1457230
Spoken like a true reseller.

[Anonymous No.1457279]

>>1457251
That image is retarded. Not only is Earthbound in much higher demand in America than it is in Japan but the used game markets are completely different. In America your best bet to find older games are pretty much limited to online shopping and flea markets unless you are lucky enough to live next to one of the very few retro game shops. In Japan Mother 2 is no where near the high demand as Earthbound is in the US and Japan has a huge used game market making copies heavily available which increases the supply to outweigh the demand.

[Anonymous No.1457297]

>>1457279
Nah, it's just because American resellers are faggots.

[Anonymous No.1457313]

>>1457251
terrible pic. sufami games are a dime a dozen in grorious nippon

[Anonymous No.1457310]

>>1457297
"I can't understand the concept that different countries could have different supply and demand on the same item"

[Anonymous No.1457321]

>>1457279
>implying it isn't the jews

[Anonymous No.1457331]

>>1456734
>pretty bad when a crt looks like it has four times the resolution and sharpness of a modern television

Wow, it's really like you don't even have the slightest fucking clue isn't it.

[Anonymous No.1457342]

>>1457279
I've actually seen the manager of my local used game store buying games and consoles en masse at a flea market. I checked a few days later and, sure enough, the same consoles appeared at her store. Want to explain that for me?

>Not only is Earthbound in much higher demand in America than it is in Japan
You really think EarthBound is so in-demand that people will pay $150 or more for the cartridge alone? That's bullshit and you know it. EarthBound is by no means a rare game, it is absolutely not worth the price.

[Anonymous No.1457348]

>>1456746
>4 millisecond delay
Gee, why not count each nanosecond it takes the light to travel to your eyes for each foot you sit away from the screen. That why I sit with my face to the monitor.

[Anonymous No.1457352]

>>1457342
I don't have a problem with people selling their old games and shit.

What I do have a problem with is the faggots who actually go out looking to bulk purchase retro games for the sole purpose of reselling at ridiculous prices.

Yes EarthBound is price inflated as fuck do to people buying up copies and fake bidding.

[Anonymous No.1457353]

>>1457342
>You really think EarthBound is so in-demand that people will pay $150 or more for the cartridge alone?

Are people paying that price? If so then yes it is worth it. You don't dictate what something is and isn't worth, it's whatever the average amount people are willing to pay for it is and guess what people are paying $150 for carts of Earthbound despite it being a common game due to high demand.

[Anonymous No.1457362]

>>1457353
No, in my experience, most SNES collectors won't buy a copy of EarthBound until they find it at a non-inflated price.

[Anonymous No.1457495]

>>1457352
>I don't have a problem with people selling their old games and shit.
>What I do have a problem with is people spending their time and money going to a variety of sources and collecting these goods, then bringing them into one convenient location and charging appropriately in order to stay open while also competing with online shoppers.

Look. I get it. But some people don't like mingling with the scum of the fucking Earth at flea markets and don't mind paying extra so I can go in and buy a physical copy of a game a 5:45 on a Tuesday rather than getting up at ass-a.m. on my fucking Saturday to go an rifle through Mary-Suebob's dusty shit to see if she is selling her cousin-uncle's old video games so she can buy a pack of Pall Malls.

[Anonymous No.1457512]

Look. I get it. But some people don't like mingling with the scum of the fucking Earth at flea markets or picking through people's shit on their front lawns at a Yard Sale. But I don't mind paying extra so I can go in and buy a physical copy of a game a 5:45 on a Tuesday rather than getting up at ass-a.m. on my fucking Saturday to go an rifle through Mary-Suebob's dust and three-headed baby vomit to see if she is selling her cousin-uncle's old video games so she can buy a pack of Pall Malls.

Individuals who flip video games online need to get a fucking life though and actually flip something of real value.

[Anonymous No.1457537]

>>1457310
"I'm a huge faggot who plays armchair economist in regards to a market that is smaller than the human slave and organ trade."

[Anonymous No.1457579]

>>1457537
Joke's on you, my chair doesn't even have arm rests on it.

[Anonymous No.1458278]

>>1456594

I think what upsets me more than anything else is you didn't even have the damn courtesy to rotate your image.

Unless you live on the fucking equator or something and this is how everything is over there, then I'm sorry for your perspective handicap

[Anonymous No.1458282]

>>1456684
What's the matter with being a "graphics whore"? Graphics aren't everything, but would you rather play an ugly game than a pretty game, all else being equal?

[Anonymous No.1458295]

>>1456695
Considering there were top players putting down really good scores on the extremely laggy PC port of ikaruga I'm inclined to agree.

CRTards = those kids who always had an excuse for losing. Blame the controller. Blame the screen.

[Anonymous No.1458307]

>>1456594
LCDs can't do lightgun games due to latency.

[Anonymous No.1458331]

>>1457537
>implying black markets operate by the same rules as open markets
fry_squinting.jpg

[Anonymous No.1458334]

I only have a kind of crappy no-name LCD TV so all my retro games look really crappy on it. In the case of PS1 and PS2 I even have trouble reading some of the text because it's just a blurry mess.

I found an old 26" Trinitron on the street. Works perfectly. No complaints.

[Anonymous No.1458340]

>>1457230


Oh go fucking fall in a ditch.

>Resellers make fake Yardsale ads to lure people away from areas with a large about of sales in a small area
>Resellers will go to your house and knock at your door at 7PM asking if you have and fucking video games, when your signs said the yardsale wont be until fucking 12pm
>Resellers will respond to your CL ads when you say you are selling games, then will try and haggle you at your own fucking home and refuse to leave, forcing you to call the police
>Resellers price match ebay, or even price OVER ebay, which is retarded, because ebay has fees, and so does paypal, meaning the "ebay value" is actually lower then what appears on the ad
>Some resellers think you're retarded, and will try selling you a GameGear for "$100" Not even fucking making this up. He also stole merch from the thrift store he worked at
>Resellers will harass you if they see you regularly at thrift stores they go to
>Resellers try defaming and slandering other more modest sellers

Resellers are fucking faggot ass scum bags. Fuck you. I bet you think Hitler was an okay guy.

[Anonymous No.1458349]

>>1458340
Hitler hated resellers.

[Anonymous No.1458378]

>>1458340
Hitler killed like 6 million resellers I think

[Anonymous No.1458392]

CRT vs LCD? Check.
Complaining about resellers? Check.
Strangely heated arguments? Check.

All we need are some screenshots of Yoshis Island with some godawful smoothing filter and we will have /vr/: The Thread.

[Anonymous No.1458394]

>>1458378
I knew I liked that guy for a reason.

[Anonymous No.1458403]

>>1458392
Allow me to fill in the missing piece

[Anonymous No.1458441]

>>1458403
ugh that's so ugly I'm going to throw up

[Anonymous No.1458460]

>>1456594
This post will come off as pretentious to those that do not understand.

But you know what? before my CRT blew out, I was able to enjoy games like Taiko Drum Master and Beatmania IIDX 15th Style DJ Trooper with on-touch-reactions.

When I play those games on my $500 LCD TV, I have to hit the notes at a harshly noticeable early timeframe before the note reaches the activator. I have to perform a slower qcb+p for Alex's grapple in Street Fighter III Third Strike as well as do it way earlier than I am supposed to on the Dreamcast and PS2, the only reason I am able to properly do it on Street Fighter III Online is because it's being played on hardware that outputs on native HD being the PS3.

There was actually a time where I was in denial about my skills degrading and I was about to throw in the towel. I'm glad that I realized that I needed to replace my old CRT if I wanted to continue enjoying my video games properly.

[Anonymous No.1458472]

>>1458378
my sides

[Anonymous No.1458476]

>>1458441
wait hang on I think I fixed it

[Anonymous No.1458486]

>>1457235
Just fine means that I can beat it though. Every now and then Tyson will wreck me if I'm having an off day, but most of the time I do perfectly fine. Have none of you bought an lcd since like 2008 or something?

[Anonymous No.1458493]

>>1457235
Good thing that discussion was about GG Xrd which is releasing in 2014 and not on a retro system which I said does better on crts already if you would have botherwd reading the entire conversation.

[Anonymous No.1458504]

>>1458486
They're just faggots. If you compare NTSC (60 mhz) to PAL (50 mhz), that's 1000/50 - 1000/60 = 3 1/3 additional milliseconds between each frame, and these queerboys are complaining about 4 ms latency on LCD. What a joke.

[Anonymous No.1458510]

>>1458504
>implying CRT users play PAL games

PAL is especially shit on CRTs because 50Hz flicker is at least twice as annoying as 60Hz flicker

[Anonymous No.1458524]

>>1458504
careful, your kazho͞oəl is revealing.

Now, I can now begin to assume that without making a google search, you have no idea what the difference between digital and analog are.

[Anonymous No.1458729]

>>1458460
If you rely on VIDEO in a RHYTM game, then you doing it horribly wrong.

The guy complaining about lack of FRC and stuff (>>1456746) is almost as bad. It's like complaining that you can't walk unless you're constantly watching at your feet. Even if you do rely your input timing on animations in fighting games, you can definitely adapt to that delay.

>>1458504
This. If you've ever played Samurai Kirby, you would know that beating Meta Knight on hard (ie. reaction tie faster than 7 milliseconds) is pretty fucking hard. And that is in a extremely favorable situtation where you know something is coming, there are no distractions (excluding sounds of the ocean) and the only thing you need to do is press a button.

[Anonymous No.1458957]

>>1458729
>fighting games
>adapt to that delay.

So, you don't know shit about fighting games? Just like /v/.

Fighting games are about reading opponents moves, and often involve frame timing.

It's fucking impossible when the shit youre seeing on the TV is not in sync with what the game is processing.

That's the the FGC plays Street Fighter IV on the 360 over the PS3. The PS3 has a 2-frame delay.

[Anonymous No.1458963]

>>1458957
EVO and most other majors use ps3s.

[Anonymous No.1458969]

>>1458963
With the exception of this year with Evo of course because of all dat money coming their way. And even then, the 360 from this point pn has no fightan games releasing for it that aren't SF. All of the other japanese fighters seem to be going ps3 only

[Anonymous No.1459038]

To the guys argueing about the fighting games on crt/lcd thing

It is true that devs change mechanics and graphics in consideration for the TV you will be playing on, many old games have deep considerations for the composite video signal, especially PS1 games. Example: PS1 games have lots of dithering; FF7, the blue text boxes have dithering in them, but in composite this dithering is invisible and it looks like a nice smooth blue shade. Some games actually look better in composite than they do in RGB.

With that example, why is it difficult to understand that devs will tweak their games to make up for the shittyness of LCDs? Of course, most devs these days are too shitty to make such considerate tweaks; for example, alot of 360 games have subtitles that are difficult/impossible to read in SD composite mode. Of course, fighting game devs are top tier so it is very likely they change frames and timing to be more "accessible" on LCDs.
But didn't DmC even have lax timings with something to do with low frame rate or something? Can't quite remember now.

[Anonymous No.1459075]

>>1459038
Post an interview where devs said they did any of that because of the lcd monster and people will believe you. Also the issue with DmC was that it ran at 30fps and they removed a lot of the combo system in favor of a rock paper scissors weapon system. Nothing to do with tvs or anything. Just ninja theory making ninja theory style combat for a game that deserved better.

[Anonymous No.1459103]

>>1459075

>The devs haven't admitted to doing it.
>Therefore it didn't happen.

Why would I purposely tell the public I am removing things from the game to account for something else being crappy? That is not how business works you simple minded fool, you.

[Anonymous No.1459125]

>>1459103
>no evidence of any of this from the people that made the games
>Trust me guys I swear, my dad works at Capcom and Arksys and they told me it was true!
Also, why the fuck do you type insults like you're Otto Octavius? Do you have mental issues?

[Anonymous No.1459198]

>>1458957
That's not what "reading the opponent" means. If people could actually tell the type of an incoming attack within few frames, no one would ever get hit.

The frame timing comes to play in hit confirms and combos. The former does actually suffer from lag, but the latter is basically all about muscle memory.

[Anonymous No.1459653]

>>1458378

[Anonymous No.1459797]

>>1458282
entirely subjective. Resolution =/= Style.

im sure it's not what you meant but "Graphics Whores" would rather play a 3d game than a 2d game.

ie Rise of the Robots > Darkstalkers

[Anonymous No.1459803]

>>1459038
i dont play many fighters anymore but the timing change/hitbox change was always a thing with console ports. but it's not like the programming changes depending on what kind of tv you play.

[Anonymous No.1462834]

>>1458340
If you don't like people taking fair advantage of capitalism then you can go back to communist China.

[Anonymous No.1462870]

>>1459038
>Example: PS1 games have lots of dithering
The PS1 hardware itself dithers. Vertex colors are interpolated at 8-bit precision and then dithered down to 5-bit precision when writing to the framebuffer, IIRC.

[Anonymous No.1462894]

Sometimes I wish nintendo and sega started "printing" old games again. Wouldn't cost a whole lot and the reseller scum would be buttfucked by legit competition.

[Anonymous No.1462902]

>>1462894
Unless you are producing them in bulk, it is pretty expensive to produce carts.

[Anonymous No.1463342]

>bait thread
OP knows why, otherwise he wouldn't be posting this thread because he wouldn't know about CRTs from other threads which explain this shit.

Report and hide.

[Anonymous No.1465735]

>>1458392
Am I doing it right?

[Anonymous No.1465749]

>>1462902
It would be the chips that would drive up costs. They could just do flash carts and then sell a repo megadrive. But they already sort of do that with those 30 in one collection, I think one of them even takes SD cards.

[Anonymous No.1467706]

>>1457537
>smaller than the human slave and organ trade
There are more people living slavery today than at any point ever in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery
http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/what_is_modern_slavery.aspx

[Anonymous No.1467765]

>>1459038
>Of course, fighting game devs are top tier

not anymore thy aren't, their idea of compensating for lag in monitors and online is putting 1 or 2 frames of lag into the game no matter what, which is shitty as uck for a fighting game. But for the topic on hand, at least for lcd screens, it varies from tv to tv, some lag, some don't.

[Anonymous No.1467781]

>>1459198
there are sometimes visual/audio queues in combos that can be screwed up in lagging situations. Also it will fuck up your reversal timing and throw teching in real games with small windows not sf4 or bb

[Anonymous No.1468085]

>>1467781
but even EVO uses hd asus monitors "the EVO monitor" even when they would play marvel 2 and 3rd strike. So there are LCD with minimum to no input latency out there