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/vr/ - Retro Games

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1450501 No.1450501 [Reply] [Original]

Procedurally generated levels suck.

They're not fun and they're a way for lazy devs to circumvent meaningful level design.

>> No.1450518

You tell that to my good buddies Toejam and Earl.

>> No.1450521

>Doesn't care for Diablo

>> No.1450526

Disagree, I enjoyed Daggerfall largely because of the randomness.
Also Diablo like the anon above me said.

>> No.1450531

I disagree.
It's one of the things that add so much replayability to roguelikes.

>> No.1450537

I like them in strategy games because they encourage scouting and add variety.

>> No.1450547

>>1450521
but the levels are the worst part of diablo.

All procedially generated versions of 1 dungeon in diablo play identical to each other. Its the random loot, and to some exstent the random properties enemies receive that make it good.

>> No.1450549

hey nethack whats up

>> No.1450554
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1450554

>>1450549
not much mang

>> No.1450558

Randomly generated levels rely on player skill as opposed to memorizing the level layout. Of course, there can be bullshit tier rooms (filled with traps, lots of high level enemies, instant death, etc), but for the most part, get good son.

>> No.1450559
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1450559

>>1450518
My nigga.

>> No.1450583

>>1450547
>it's the random loot that makes it good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

>> No.1450584
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1450584

They can be frustrating, but once in a blue moon you'll get one that solves itself immediately, and I personally think the long ones are worth the frustration.

>> No.1450684

>>1450558
>Randomly generated levels rely on player skill as opposed to memorizing the level layout.
Yeah, right, especially when the exit of a level is generated right beside the player. You can of course limit the randomness to avoid silly situations like that, but then you're back to encouraging more memorization. You're almost better off with carefully designed levels, so you can make sure that every level offers a new, meaningful challenge, even if repeated play will get easier as you memorize the layouts. Random levels also aren't as atmospheric or immersive as levels that have a certain logic to them.

>> No.1450695
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1450695

I think Castlevania SOTN would be a even better game if there's an option to randomly create the parts of castle.

>As friendly as ever, I see. It's strange. This castle is different than I remember it.
>......... This castle is a creature of Chaos. It may take many incarnations.

>> No.1450703

>>1450558
>skill as opposed to memorizing
Not this shit again. Skill IS memorization. The word you are looking for is "reflexes".

>> No.1450709

Daggerfall is a gateway RPG of the worst kind.

>> No.1450713

>>1450695
SOTN is mostly made of samey corridors and towers with enemies waiting in a neat row behind every door. It wouldn't matter how you rearrange it when most rooms are uninteresting. A better idea would be to add more intense platforming and get rid of the predictable enemy placement.

>> No.1450717

Skill is a terrible word to use in video game context.
Clicking on flashing lights for entertainment purposes will and can never be a skill.

>> No.1450720

>>1450695
Doesn't one of the DS games does that?

>> No.1450727

>>1450531
Yeah, but do you ever look at randomly generated levels in roguelikes and think how compelling the dungeon design is?

>> No.1450732

>>1450717
If playing a perfectly realistic flight sim can't be called a skill, then neither can piloting a real airplane.

>> No.1450743

>>1450558
It doesn't make that much of a difference in how much skill you need. You still end up memorizing enemy patterns and certain sections, you just encounter them in a differnt order.

>> No.1450776

>>1450743
Good AI changes pattern of attack based on range. Think about encountering a revenant (Doom) perched on a ledge overlooking a wide open plane with little to no cover, and running into one in close quarters. There's a difference in how you would engage the enemy in these two scenarios. The unpredictability is an added challenge and so you do need skill in reacting to a wide variety of scenarios.

Try some Doom RL.

My opinion, etc.

>> No.1450820

>>1450776
>Good AI changes pattern of attack based on range.
Good AI isn't random either. And you can memorize the attack patterns of a revenant, as well as when it will use a melee or ranged attack.

>> No.1451319

I think since platformers rely on their level design for their fun and memorability, procedurally-generated levels are the antithesis of making a good platformer. I never liked the recent wave of indy random-level platformers. They're just not fun for me.

Not really retro though.

>> No.1452012

>>1450501
Procedurally generated levels depends on how complex and good the algorithm is.
They're easy to make badly, but they don't inherently suck.

>> No.1452029

>>1451319
>>1452012
I wouldn't have playd Spelunky for hundreds of hours unless it had the generated levels.

>> No.1452049

>>1450583
I really don't see how this is relevant.

>Enjoying a degree of randomisation in powerup items from a videogame
>exactly the same as being conditioned to expect a reward when performing certain actions.

>> No.1452058

>>1450727

I'm usually too busy staying alert for traps and monsters while exploring the level for loot, features and the exit, so i'd say it does a good enough job being "compelling".

>> No.1452063

>>1450501
Generalizations suck.

They're not smart and they're a way for lazy posters to circumvent meaningful discussion.


Procedurally generated levels depend on:
Quality of the developed levels
Genre of the game
What the game sets out to do

Roguelikes need it along with enemy/item randomization because that's the whole point. A Metroidvania (or just any sidescroller) requires thought and polish to be put in the individual stage.

>> No.1452098

>>1452029
Really? I got bored of the game quickly because every one of the randomly generated levels was more uninteresting a standard level in a platformer. People say that randomness increases replay value but I didn't feel that the random levels in Spelunky were even worth finishing once.

>> No.1452109
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1452109

Well it worked for HoMM 3. I mean, what's the point of scouring the area if you already know where's what. Gives the game a good amount of replayability, especially multiplayer. Granted in this game making the random map generator is actually an extra effort by the devs since they already have and allow the use of predesigned maps.

>> No.1453825

Might was well flip a coin.