/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.1276101]

About Emulators and accurateness.

Look, I'm playing now Spyro in PCSXR (this is a plugin based emulator, and considering how "new" is the system, it's obvious that the emulation is not accurate, just makes it works)..

And I'm playing the game, at 720p, widescreen (obviously is a 4:3 game), and it looks beautiful. It has it's frame drops here and there, because my computer is pretty old, a laptop from 2007, but anyway.

The point is, how better my enjoyment could be to play this game in an original PS1? And should I play it in a CRT television for further enjoyment. Should I go back to 480p because there's nothing more accurate than that?

[Anonymous No.1276107]

>accurateness
Please at least play in 4:3 we can't even look at your pic.

[Anonymous No.1276112]

>>1276107

It's not being stretched. It'd look just the same just with less image at left and right. Only works for 3D games obviously

[Anonymous No.1276139]

>>1276107

Tried it in 4:3.

There's just more black bars.

[Anonymous No.1276145]

>>1276112
>It's not being stretched.
Yes it is, you're not using the widescreen hack.

[Anonymous No.1276151]

>>1276145

ok you're right, how do i enable the widescreen hack?

[Anonymous No.1276157]

>>1276139
>>1276101
You seriously can't see the difference in the proportions of these two pics?

[Anonymous No.1276158]

>>1276151
Widescreen (GTE Hack) under CPU configuration.
Also if you want accuracy use the Mednafen core with RetroArch.

[Anonymous No.1276159]

>>1276157
see
>>1276151

[Anonymous No.1276169]

>>1276158
>Also if you want accuracy use the Mednafen core with RetroArch.

but what is accuracy, and why should I care about it?

Also, isn't accuracy impossible in a system as powerful as the PSx?

And my computer is old, 256 mb DDR2 GFX card, 2GB DDR2 and Core 2 Duo 2GHz

[Anonymous No.1276184]

>>1276101

>Aspect Ratio:

The original game is 4:3, and that is stretched to 16:9. It's stretching the image, and is not "true widescreen". True widescreen is when it expands the viewing area, instead of stretching. EPSXE does not have a true widescreen option, however PCSXR in fact does. It's under CPU options. So if you want to play in 16:9 go with that.

>PS1 HD

Keep in mind that the PS1 does not have a true 3D GPU. It takes many shortcuts. It mostly looks okay at native resolutions. These issues are minor. But when you increase the internal resolution the issues become more apparent. Polygons morph. Textures wobble and move. Especially at certain camera angles. Read more:

http://emulation-general.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation_emulators#Emulation_issues

>Accuracy

The standard plugins for epsxe/pcsxr have not been really updated since 2008. They were deemed "good enough". But they're all low accuracy and have graphical glitches. Plus, they have a thousand confusing options, and most of them you don't even need. They're designed to be able to run on low end computers from 2006, so most of these options aren't needed.

There have been more accurate software based renderers for the PS1. They are all native resolution only. These include:

1. GPUBladesoft. A plugin for epsxe/PCSXR. Can also do HD but you need a NASA computer for this.
2. XEBRA - a closed source JP emulator
3. Mednafen - Open source, multi-system emulator, with an original PS1 core. The PS1 core has been ported to RetroArch.

[Anonymous No.1276186]

>>1276101
Playing games on the original hardware is the only way to enjoy them. I honestly can't see how anybody plays these games on emulators, they rob games of their original personality and presentation.

Also OP, yes, you should play on a CRT. These games were never designed to run on newer display technologies. Doing so is an insult to the designers, you aren't seeing the game as they intended. Try walking around an art gallery and looking at everything with a pair of blue/red 3D glasses on (and take note of the foul looks you get from the artists). Also the latency of newer displays is atrocious, which messes with the timing of these games. It's subtle, but profound difference.

[Anonymous No.1276190]

>>1276184

>Dithering

The standard low accuracy plugins remove dithering. It was used for shading in ps1 games, and many of them have a checkerboard pattern on them. When people use accurate emulators, people get confused. What's up with all these dots? Well, most of the time, you wouldn't have noticed this on a real console. Composite cables, native resolution and CRTs would mask or reduce most of them. In emulation, on a digital HD screen, it can be noticeable.

The dithering is either very minor issue, or it can be a very major part of the game's look. Silent Hill for instance, looks massively different when you remove the dithering. Other games it doesn't matter too much.

>Recommendations

What you like most is up to you. It can be per game.

Here's my setup:

>CRT Monitor
>480p resolution
>RetroArch with mednafen core
>pixilate.cg shader (minor shader that hides scaling issues)

Spyro looks fine in 16:9 for the most part, and in HD. Sorta, if you ignore the standard PS1 issues. You can reduce the resolution to have fewer issues.

[Anonymous No.1276198]

>>1276186

This almost feels like a satirical post.

[Anonymous No.1276215]

>>1276186

I think it has more to do with:

>inaccurate emulators
>shitty modern displays

LCDs are terrible. I've never been impressed with them. Plasmas look so much better, but those have issues with burn in, and I'm not sure about the motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAeJjjUrP3U

This guy posted a vid of his custom CRT shader (unreleased) playing F-zero. Looks pretty good.

With an accurate emulator, in a good display, with low latency and good motion, with a good shader, it should be the same as original hardware. This hasn't happened yet however.

[Anonymous No.1276226]

>>1276215
Judging video quality with a Youtube video, especially on a game that Youtube's compression absolutely destroys like F-Zero seems a bit silly, so I'll withhold judgment until the public release.

[Anonymous No.1276229]

>>1276169
>but what is accuracy, and why should I care about it?

How close it is to the original system. This includes how often you get visual glitches, game compatibility, etc. Some of it, like cycle accuracy increase CPU requirements a lot for relatively little gain.

Mednafen has fairly high game compatibility with few glitches. It requires a Core 2 Duo 2GHz as minimum.

>Also, isn't accuracy impossible in a system as powerful as the PSx?

No, it just requires more information, more time to create the emulator, and more CPU power. A cycle accurate SNES emulator requires something around 3.0 Ghz Core Duo for Accuracy profile. There are no Cycle Accurate PS1 emulators, and I doubt anyone cares enough. But there's high accuracy PS1 emulators that are aiming for 100% game compatibility eventually.

There's different levels of accuracy too. There's Circuit accuracy. It simulates all the internal circuits of the system. A circuit accurate Atari emulator can get a solid 15pfs on a high end desktop CPU.

[Anonymous No.1276236]

I doubt that many 80s and 90s video game designers consider themselves artists, but if they're proud of anything regarding their games it would most likely be the mechanics over the graphics since they always had to compromise their vision graphically.

The lag of analog to digital conversion interferes with the mechanics of a game more than the display itself compromises the aesthetic.

[Anonymous No.1276240]

>>1276236
>since they always had to compromise their vision graphically.

This has always been true though. It was incredibly true in the ps3/360 era. Did you hear of all the complaints about those systems, including the low amount of memory to work with which severely limited what could be done?

True in the eras before it, and true today.

[Anonymous No.1276250]

>>1276240
>True in the eras before it, and true today.
And it always will be until we can run raytraced engines in realtime rendering sculpted models... but this is getting off-topic.

[Anonymous No.1276257]

>>1276236
>The lag of analog to digital conversion interferes with the mechanics of a game more than the display itself compromises the aesthetic.

Look, I do not want to buy a CRT TV, because I live in Europe, and here there's problems with older systems being PAL and shit. SCART is great but there's no SCART output for the PSx and previous games console.

It's very rare to find CRT tv with S-Video and 60HZ.

The best I could do is to buy an original PSx, a S-video output cable, and connect it to my laptot with a capture card.

[Anonymous No.1276272]

>>1276257
>there's no SCART output for the PSx
PS1 outputs RGB, you can get RGB SCART cables for it.

[Anonymous No.1276274]

>>1276257

>Europe

I feel your pain. PAL games should be avoided. I'm so glad now that we have much more sane standards, eventhough LCDs are kinda shitty.

I do recommend RetroArch for most systems, especially 2D ones. Try to get a display with low latency. Get something 120hz, so you can use the fake trick that gives it smooth CRT like motion. This is called "Black frame insertion".

Read:
http://emulation-general.wikia.com/wiki/Input_lag
http://emulation-general.wikia.com/wiki/Display_FAQ#Black_frame_insertion

Then use a shader with RetroArch. Experiment with ones you like.

For 3D you might not like the shader look. You might want to stick with PCSXR and increased internal resolution.

[Anonymous No.1276278]

http://www.mediafire.com/download/iiuu9yv8wux108p/RetroArch-Win64-2013-12-14.zip

RetroArch download if you want it.

[Anonymous No.1276280]

>>1276272

Still, I'd prefer to avoid shitty 50Hz screens and all that mes.

It's easier to get a PSx, mod it, run NTSC roms on my Laptop's LCD with great picture quality in S-Video.

At least that's what I think.

[Anonymous No.1276281]

>>1276274

Could also just use a CRT Monitor

[Anonymous No.1276285]

>>1276278

In the emulation general wiki there's the instructions I followed. PCSXR with the appropiate plug ins.

[Anonymous No.1276294]

>>1276285

That's an option, and good for 3D games, since you can increase the internal resolution. But don't go too far to reduce the issues.

If you want an accurate native res emulator, use RetroArch-Mednafen. Best for 2D games.

[Anonymous No.1276298]

>>1276257
>SCART is great but there's no SCART output for the PSx and previous games console.

>It's very rare to find CRT tv with S-Video and 60HZ.

Wow you don't know shit. It's very rare to find a TV that doesn't do 60hz. And most retro consoles output RGB through SCART if you get the right cable. Just because you're in Europe doesn't mean you have to put up with PALshit.

[Anonymous No.1276407]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQawd-v2MM

RetroArch playing PS1 games, on a plasma screen and a CRT Shader. What it looks like.

[Anonymous No.1276485]

>>1276274
>PAL games should be avoided.
I would agree, unless said game is from a British developer, in which case the PAL version is probably better.

[Anonymous No.1276529]

>>1276485
50Hz flicker is at least twice as annoying as 60Hz flicker, and if it's a low framerate game (making this irrelevant) then it's not worth playing. No excuse for PAL ever.

[Anonymous No.1276537]

>>1276529
>50Hz flicker is at least twice as annoying as 60Hz flicker, and if it's a low framerate game (making this irrelevant) then it's not worth playing. No excuse for PAL ever.
PAL flicker is a matter of opinion. And properly optimised PAL games sometimes ran faster than their NTSC counterparts because the NTSC versions were released first, then more work was put into the PAL version. Rareware games come to mind.

You need to remember that there was a whole games industry that treated PAL as the defacto standard, and ported to NTSC with mixed results.

[Anonymous No.1276543]

>>1276537
If there's really no other option I'll play the PAL version at 60Hz and deal with it running too fast. But I can't actually think of any PAL game I'd want to play.

[Anonymous No.1276550]

>>1276543
>But I can't actually think of any PAL game I'd want to play.
And this is very sad, because the British games was miles ahead of the US games industry technologically through the 80's and 90's.

[Anonymous No.1276557]

>>1276186
thanks for the copypasta m8

[Anonymous No.1276570]

Accuracy does not matter for the most part when it comes to emulation. It's purpose is to provide documentation and extended compatibility for games but at the cost of absolutely everything else. It's not suitable for regular gameplay. Some people are super nitpicky about perceived faults so they prefer running games on their super accurate emulators instead of the equivalent general emulator but people like what people like.

[Anonymous No.1276681]

>>1276550
So list a few examples.

The entire ZX Spectrum library is 50Hz only, but I've already played all the "good" ones and there's nothing of any value.

[Anonymous No.1276684]

I think games are much more satisfying to play on an original console. You have more of an obligation to play a game you bought with your own money, and your own playstation. Games aren't very fulfilling when all you have to do is download them. You have no reason to play it.

[Anonymous No.1276702]

>>1276684
>obligation to play a game
Missing the point of games entirely

[Anonymous No.1276749]

Fuck "accuracy." I want my games to look polished up and as good as possible.

I played through Metal Gear Solid at 1024x768; the models looked fantastic. Sure, the textures could get pixelly here and there, but I LIKED that. I could actually fucking see it. I don't like having to deal with shitty blurry textures from a low-res CRT.

One of the things I hated about the N64 was how every single sprite on it was hugely stretched and blurred. Fuck that! I want to see the goddamn pixels!

And fuck what the developers "intended." Fuck that shit to hell. If I want to watch the Star Wars movies out of order, I can. If I want to watch them played in reverse and upside down, I can. If I want to play Doom while listening to classical jazz, I can. And if I want to play PSX games with big huge nicely-scaled non-pixelly models, I fucking will.

[Anonymous No.1276760]

Bust a Groove 2 requires accuracy for the input.

The game is a pain in the ass (but still fun) on a real psx, but practically impossible on a plug-in emulator.

[Anonymous No.1276779]

>>1276749
I agree. I love seeing my old favorites in "HD". Yeah it's slightly cheap, but with the right options it can look pretty excellent. The problem is people just start stacking on tons of AA and filters and it turns the game into an (ironically) blurry mess of garbage because it's trying to make way too much out of what isn't there. Respect the limits of what you can do with what's available and the original version simply can't match it.

Some games are pretty much always unfit for this, though. Pokemon Blue will always look terrible with almost any mods. But it works great for most PS1, N64 and other 3D stuff. Just not ideal for sprites and a lot of 2D things.

[Anonymous No.1276785]

>>1276779

>Any Pokemon games with filters ever

The most disgusting thing I ever looked

[Anonymous No.1276809]

>>1276749
>I COULD WHATEVER I WANT!

Ok, calm down you little fucking kid. None one's telling you can't. But it won't stop people from calling you retarded or anything.

[Anonymous No.1276814]

>>1276779
>>1276749

I agree. PS1 games look so good in HD. It's such an improvement over the original game, it's not even funny. The models look so crisp and clear.

[Anonymous No.1276818]

>>1276749
>I don't like having to deal with shitty blurry textures from a low-res CRT.

CRT tvs, even shadow masks (which are blurrier than aperture grille tvs, and CRT monitors) are quite sharp. The cables caused most of the blurring. And PS1 used no texture filtering.

PS1 in HD is problematic. If you want to, play the PC port of MGS, as it (probably?) fixes some of the issues and can be properly displayed in HD. ALthough I think it removes the dithering, which is a shame.

[Anonymous No.1276864]

>>1276814
See, this is perfect. Shit like he wrinkles on his shirt and stuff? That's usually impossible to see.

It probably helps that I grew up playing PC games, which always had crystal clear pixels and shit like this. If any game ever had antialiasing, it was the first thing I turned off.

[Anonymous No.1276915]

>>1276864
>See, this is perfect.

[Anonymous No.1276927]

>>1276864
>See, this is perfect.

[Anonymous No.1276959]

>>1276101
Use Xebra or Retroarch.

[Anonymous No.1277056]

>>1276749

You seem confused about something. What you seem to want is nearest or point sampled scaling.
That has nothing to do with a CRT or not (Which most can at least go to 1280x960 without sacrificing clarity, mind you. Many even go past 1920 wide clearly). You could still force as such while using one.

N64 uses its own bilinear, and emulators use the much more standard variant.
It's not that you want to see the pixels, as that's a hardware/output thing. And you'd have to be running a very low DPI display (Or resolution on CRTs, since they've no native) or be extremely close to do that.
You just want to force nearest texture scaling, simple as is.
The words you may be looking for are "Blocky", "Pixellated", or possibly "Sharp".

But then you stated "huge nicely scaled non-pixelly models", which is just strange. Do you mean non-aliased? If so I entirely agree, regardless of resolution or textures, models should not be aliased. But it does depend on if AA causes issues, like misalignment or polygon gaps.

There may always be room to enhance things, or modify them to your preferences. But that also induces bugs extremely often.
You can still have an accurate as HELL core with enhancements.
You can still have an accurate renderer as an option without killing off another.
In fact, that's a fair use of the ideal plugin format, but so many have misused it for pure fragmentation reinventing things badly that it's shunned now for simply existing.

[Anonymous No.1277073]

>>1276864
>See, this is perfect.

Harry is quite deformed there. That camera angle when he says "Cheryl?" at the beginning of the game produces a lot of distortion. It's the problem of PS1 in HD. It's not like the N64 which looks good in HD.

>Shit like he wrinkles on his shirt and stuff? That's usually impossible to see.

You can see it when he gets close to the camera.

PS1 should be x2 resolution AT MOST.

[Anonymous No.1277079]

>>1276864
It's a bit like Blu-ray releases for TV shows. You will see more detail but you will also see more imperfections.

[Anonymous No.1277224]

>>1277079

That analogy works good for, say N64, Dreamcast, other systems. In those systems increasing the internal resolution leads to a clearer better looking game for the most part.

PS1 and Saturn... yikes. There's problems. It leands to jittering and warped distorted models. It can be really distracting to see a character standing, and part of his leg is jittering.

[Anonymous No.1277824]

>>1276101
i prefer 480px with scanlines but that's just me. i don't see why anyone want to play a real PS1 anymore. loading times are pretty bad on some PS games. at least in emulators, you can fastforward(frameskip delimit) some cutscences. the loading animations will still show on emulators even if the data is begin loaded in < 1 microsecond from your SSD.

[Anonymous No.1277846]

>>1276229
>>1276570
seriously, i thought the standard software video emulator options on epsx and pcsxr were already pretty good? they are sort of slow on my notebook. but then my crap comp can't even bsnes at more than 30fps.

accuracy is only important for buggy badly programmed games or games that had weird hardware on their carts(like Der Langrisser and Front Mission SNES).

[Anonymous No.1277940]

>>1277846
>seriously, i thought the standard software video emulator options on epsx and pcsxr were already pretty good?

Not really. They are seen as "good enough". But they don't have 100% compatibility with games. They are annoying and have tons of options, and some games need "special fixes" and special settings. Most true of obscure games.

The Open GL 2 plugin has the highest compatibility but it's closed source. That's why there's been no improvements to it.

[Anonymous No.1278192]

>>1276101
My only problem with playing PS1 games in HD resolutions is the deformities that come with it. I'm cool with N64 and other newer consoles at higher internal res, but something about the PS1 just bothers me. I can't do it.

[Anonymous No.1278486]

>>1277824
>PS1 anymore. loading times are pretty bad on some PS games.

could you load the games in a ps2 with an hdd?

[Anonymous No.1278564]

>>1278192
>but something about the PS1 just bothers me. I can't do it.

Because the PS1 GPU takes shortcuts with 3D, which means it can't be upscaled without MAJOR issues. It's not worth it.

You get deformed goblin people and dancing body parts.

[Anonymous No.1278612]

[Anonymous No.1278615]

>>1278612

>HD PS1

[Anonymous No.1278851]

>>1278615

In my computer it looks better in HD 720p.

[i am ZUN No.1278889]

>>1277940
>use open gl
>make it closed source

what kinda asshole does that!?!??!

[Anonymous No.1278919]

>>1278851

>deformed people are good

Nope. I'd prefer pixilated over deformed gnomes

[Anonymous No.1278993]

>>1276681
>there's nothing of any value
>being this wrong
>also thinking the ZX Spectrum represented the entirety of the British computer gaming industry
>what is the BBC Micro
>what is the Archimedes
>what is the Amstrad CPC

A few examples of the British gaming industry being fantastic? I bet you've played games that were programmed or distributed by the likes of the Bitmap Brothers, Sensible Software, Codemasters, Ocean, Team 17, Rare (formerly Ultimate), Psygnosis, Eidos, Gremlin or Graftgold.

All of them British.

[Anonymous No.1279070]

>>1278889
I dunno, ask Pete Bernert. Oh wait, he's been missing from the internet since like 2010.

He did make the original OpenGL plugin open source, though, but still, sucks he never did the same for OGL2.

[Anonymous No.1279080]

I wanna make a gif of Harry's deformation during the Cheryl camera angle, but I am dumb and can't seem to do it without going well over 4chan's file size limit. Anyone got any tips?

[Anonymous No.1279195]

>>1279080

Post the HD video on youtube. Ask others to make the gif. There's a gif request thread in /wsg/.

For extra hilarity, also create an alternate version:

>4:3 aspect ratio
>widescreen hack turned on

Harry is extra deformed. Slenderman style.

[Anonymous No.1279556]

>>1279080
Cut half or 3/4 of the frames, lower the number of colours(maybe some dithering with that to make it look a little smoother), lower resolution.