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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 572 KB, 1500x1250, Zeromus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1182638 No.1182638 [Reply] [Original]

>final boss is a generic evil being or overlord, not the guy you've been chasing around the whole game who you've learned to hate

Why do games do this?

>> No.1182639

>>1182638
Because FF3 did it and everyone jumped on its back.

>> No.1182645

It's like a requirement for all FF games to pull a switch like that. It was probably neat the first time.

>> No.1182647

>>1182639
>FF3
Dragon Quest II.

>> No.1182651
File: 7 KB, 256x192, ngbbs4868672706290.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1182651

It's usually pretty threatening. I beat Lassic in Phantasy Star and I thought the game was over, then all of a sudden this nigga appears

I was like YOOOOOOO

>> No.1182653

>>1182645
V, VI, and VII don't really do that. IX does, and that still kind of pisses me off.

>> No.1182659

>>1182653
IX is an ass about it because it comes out of NOWHERE. Like what the actual fuck.

>> No.1182673

>>1182653
>>1182659
It's an intentional throwback to old JRPG's. You should have been expecting it.

>> No.1182679

>>1182639
FF3 never even gave you an enemy until like the final segments of the game.

>> No.1182683

The only game that pulled this off well was DQ3.

>> No.1182702

>>1182653
I doesn't do it either

>> No.1182705

>>1182659
It gets mentioned by the Iifa Tree boss, but that's about as noticeable as the terminal in FF8 that mentioned the link between GFs and memory loss.

>> No.1182713

>>1182673
Would be nice if they only did throwbacks to the good points about older JRPGs

>> No.1182740

>>1182702
One kind of does, but it was so early it can be forgiven.

>> No.1182746

>>1182651
I thought Phantasy Star did this pretty well. That battle actually had quite a bit of foreshadowing, even some in the instruction manual.

>> No.1182749

>>1182740
Except Garland explains why he's there and how he has been in a time loop. He's had more than enough time to accumulate masses of power with the aid of the four fiends.

>> No.1182843
File: 69 KB, 600x847, 476450-chrono_trigger__s___lavos_by_sooperkreep_super.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1182843

>>1182638
>Doing it well

>> No.1182846

>>1182638
Its pretty clear the last quarter or so of the game that Golbez isn't going to be the final boss.

>> No.1182875
File: 55 KB, 906x200, Dr.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1182875

In Romancing SaGa 1: Saruin is mentioned at the beginning, and we find out as we play that the seal is weakening and he is deliberately fucking shit up via his proxy minions.

In Romancing SaGa 2: Seven Heroes are mentioned and then Kujinshi (One of the Seven) shows up about 10-20 minutes into the game and sets the story in motion.

For the 3rd game... I thought we would be fighting the Devil King, but oh no, we get this thing instead.

>> No.1182903

>>1182638
is there any official artwork from amano for zeromus? google seems to say no. any other sources i should check?

>> No.1182929

>>1182683
I wouldn't call it out of nowhere. If you played DQ1&2 you would at least have some idea on what happened.

They did it normal to have a final twist to make the ending more memorable in my opinion. But 99.9% of the time it just doesn't work or it feels like most of the work you've done was pointless. At least when Dragon Quest done it there was some explanation before it so you at least had an idea on who you were fighting.

>> No.1183106
File: 8 KB, 320x240, 00067414_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1183106

>>1182638
>After you beat the supreme evil overlord elder god, you have a final showdown with that bad guy you've been chasing the whole game
>No tricks
>No final forms
>Mano a mano
>You die or he dies

>> No.1183113

>>1182843
That's a little different though, because Lavos is established as the main foe early on in the game.

>> No.1183115

I liked the twist to FF1, even if it makes no sense when you really think about it.

>> No.1183125

I've honestly always liked this as a plot device. Maybe it's because FFIV was the first narrative-driven JRPG I ever played. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it isn't made completely irrelevant to the rest of the story by being crammed directly into the very absolute end of the game, like FFIX.

>> No.1183140

>>1183113
I think he means it was quite a shock that Lavos turned out to be an intelligent, apparently malevolent being rather than a force of nature that others were using to power their own evil schemes, and that it was some weird biological android thing piloting the insect-like shell.

>> No.1183143

>>1183115
I liked the idea that the first boss you beat just happen to be the final boss. Not many JRPG does that. But I agree it was handled a bit poorly. But I feel they were trying to outdo Dragon Quest 2 (or 3 I forgot) in plot but went a bit too plot heavy that it cave in on itself.

>> No.1183147

>>1183140
>it was some weird biological android thing
The guy to the left of him was, at least

>> No.1183162

>>1182659
Yeah it was a very stupid moment

>> No.1183182

>>1182638
Being a paladin is about forgiveness and righteousness.. you sound like you never let go of your hate for Golbez.. your own motherfucking brother... I really am disappointed in you, OP.

>> No.1183278

I like the way FFII did it. You kill the Emperor surprisingly easy, and then the Dark Knight takes over. You think "Oh great, they're gonna turn this guy into the final boss at the last moment." and go to confront him, and then NOPE, turns out the Emperor TOOK OVER THE AFTERLIFE and makes one hell of a come-back.

>> No.1183281

>>1183278
The Emperor was a nasty mofo, wasn't he? He wiped out most of the world's known population with a battleship and a flying tornado castle alone.

There's that whole Dawn of Souls thing too that puts more emphasis on his afterlife-takeover.

>> No.1183290

>>1183281
Yeah. FFII has gameplay problems, but story-wise it's probably my favourite of the older FF-titles. The Emperor was just relentless, going from superweapon to assassination plot (via seduction, no less) to superweapon to literally summoning Hell on Earth. The game STARTS with your party getting run down by his troops. The guy makes Zemus look like an underachiever.

>> No.1183410

I love about half way or so when all the low level enemies are just destroyed. So even the first town has pretty strong enemies. Really felt like it was survival of the fittest there. Wish more games does that.

>> No.1183423

>>1183140
>>1183147
It was several layers of that. There was the outer shell being controlled by the inner creature being controlled by the core being controlled by the bit.

>> No.1183450
File: 4 KB, 141x159, BALIOandSUNDER.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1183450

Oh hey, what's going on in this thread?

>> No.1183514

Fucking SNES version of Star Ocean 1 and its random final boss and dungeon.
How did the remake handle that part, anyway?

>> No.1183585

In FF's case, it was meant to say the game wasn't quite about good vs. evil or light vs. darkness: it's about existence vs. nonexistence

>> No.1183783

>>1182638

Because you've gotta have an end boss and then another, more difficult boss or two to give people their money's worth, and it's more interesting than having the first boss transform.

That's what it was about, seriously. Designers used to care about giving people quality for their money.

>> No.1183839

>>1183450
my sides are in dragon form

>> No.1184107
File: 43 KB, 960x544, Neo_Revorse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1184107

>>1183514
Even worse.

>> No.1184131

>>1182875

The destroyer was pretty goofy. The Devil King, like the Holy King, was a legend to which artifacts stood as testament.

Frankly, they should've done character specific bosses that they built up, but RS3 felt beyond rushed and hurried out the doors.

RS2 was the best in the series, I think, although I regularly enjoy runs in all 3. They know how to do last bosses... you'll never do anything harder than them in the game, because they're the END of the game.

>> No.1184160

>>1182638
I love how not even squeenix can agree on what the actual fuck zeromus is supposed to look like in FFIV. it the DS 3D remake he's like this hulking alien thing wearing what looks like a red robe and some kind of headdress

>> No.1184187

>>1184160

To me it looks like mother brain fused with a metroid wearing skeleton armor.

Oh and then grew a claw, That's assuming the sprite is looking at the player though.

If its actually looking at the characters which is more likely, then it just looks like a mess

>> No.1184279

>>1183106

Tales of the Abyss did this, the final boss 2nd form was more like "Ok no more fucking around", I think he takes off his shirt and you fight.

>> No.1184958

>>1182647
Dragon Quest 1.
You defeat the Dragon Lord and then his pet dragon tries to eat you. It's not a two form boss at all. True story.

>> No.1185007

>>1184958
I've heard that in the Japanese version it is explained he has a pet dragon. It's just not really done as well in the American version.

>> No.1185730

>>1182638
you play shitty games Tales of phantasia makes you fight the final boss and then feel like trash for killing im because he was a hero too

>> No.1185751

>>1184958
If that's true, why did the later DQ games add a spell where your character can turn into a dragon and go on a rampage in battle as a reference to the Dragonlord?

>> No.1186562

>>1182875
It is also what I liked about T260's route in SaGa Frontier. You are trying find what your mission is, then when you do figure it out you do battle with the program you were sent out to destroy.

>> No.1186589

>>1185751
Why does it have to be a reference? Why can't you turn into a dragon because being a dragon is cool? Stick that in your perspective and smoke it!

>> No.1186634

>>1182679
In the original japanese version Zande was foreshadowed from the time Desh joins your team. I've no idea why neither the fan or official translation got this right.

>> No.1186635

>>1182705
Oddly, I haven't played FF8 since it came out on PC, and I remember a terminal that mentioned that.

>> No.1186637

>>1182746
> That one battle in a dream

>> No.1186639

>>1183143
FF1 did a great job. What's not to understand? Garland is stuck in a time loop, so when you kill him initially he has 2000 years to plot his revenge.

>> No.1186641

>>1183182
> DARKWAVE DARKWAVE DARKEAVE

>> No.1187691

>>1183106

People like to be revisionists and shit on it but i still think that FFVII is one of the best Jrpgs ever created, it even had pic related, it was so satisfying to saw the limit break bar fill up you could fell that Cloud was pissed and decided to put a end on all that shit...

Seriously square should never have made all that sequels bullshit.

>> No.1187692
File: 15 KB, 320x240, snap_108.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1187692

>>1187691

Forgot pic, hur.

>> No.1187696

>>1183143
>I liked the idea that the first boss you beat just happen to be the final boss. Not many JRPG does that.
I'll one-up you.

Play Mana Khemia.

>> No.1187698

>>1183140
>>1183147

Another interpretation is that the spiky bug-thing *is* Lavos, at first. But as you progress in the final encounters, Lavos notes that these humanoids are rapidly kicking his ass; thus, he evolves rapidly to a more powerful and humanoid form to adapt to humanoids kicking his ass.

That's why Lavos Spawns are miniature spiny space-ticks instead of miniature space men. They're the basic form of Lavos, lacking an ability to evolve past their base forms.

>> No.1187740
File: 101 KB, 600x600, 1357362238778.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1187740

>>1187696
You bastard why did you remind me?

>>1187698
Or Lavos' entire shell exists so it can survive hurtling through space at extreme speeds and make impact with a planet without obliterating itself in the process. Cut open a lavos spawn you'd probably find a fetus-like thing.

>> No.1187745

Suikoden is worst for this, especially because the fights are so rubbish. The first game at least tried to justify it, after that mainly...er... the rune turns into a monster. Or there's just a tree. Fuck that tree.

>> No.1187746

>>1187698
He doesn´t evolve in the fight, those are its shells. It´s like a motherfucking matrioska. Lavos stopped evolving in the future, after destroying the surface, then it gave birth to his spawns. At least it´s what the say in the game.

>> No.1187769

>>1187745
Wasn't the final boss in Lufia three of the sinistrals back to back with no bullshit?

>> No.1187809

>>1182638
implying that's not better than the final boss being a generic gigantic version of the main antagonist

>> No.1187825

>>1182638
I found this kinda disconbobulating with Secret of Mana. It never really properly established Thanatos and seemed a bit rushed at the end. The end game though was good.
>>1182653
I love what FF6 did, having Kefka grow along with you made things far more interesting. Can't remember many other games that have you twatting the big bad boss and chasing him around a camp.

>> No.1187852
File: 8 KB, 256x224, Giygas.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1187852

I think an incomprehensible huge monster thing being the master of evil has some relevance in Japanese culture that maybe doesn't translate too well elsewhere.

I get the impression that final battle of Earthbound was meant to be kind of satire about this kind of thing, because of how different that part of the game is compared to everything else before it and how incoherently Giygas talks during it.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into things.

>> No.1187865

>>1187852
>incomprehensible huge monster thing being the master of evil has some relevance in Japanese culture

This is common in pretty much every culture.

>> No.1188347

>>1185730
SONNA BAKANA!
AAAUGGHHHHHHH motherfuckers!

>> No.1190569

>>1185007
I've heard this before as well, but I've never seen any real proof of it. Plus there's the fact that Dragon Quest Monsters games consider the dragon form to be DragonLord itself and I have to assume it's either not true, or was retconned in even the Japanese remakes.