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/vr/ - Retro Games

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1175340 No.1175340[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

It's not you, Super Metroid. It's me. (Mature discussion wanted.)

I beat Super Metroid back in the day without using a strategy guide. Now with that being said, here are my Super Metroid complaints.

Super Metroid is only fun when you explore and discover things on your own. Therefore, if you use an online guide, it takes away from it. But the problem is, if I don't use a guide, I end up running around for hours, until I find that ONE PLACE I was supposed to go. And that's no fun, either!

I started my gaming days in the 1980s. I'm also a game collector who plays 8-bit and 16-bit games all the time. But honestly, I much rather play the 'black sheep' 2D Metroid that was released in 2002. It locks you in different sectors and tells you what you need to do. You still have to explore and figure the objective out, but at least the game keeps you in the area where you should be. I don't see this as being anymore linear than Super Metroid, because I can't pull off those tricky alternate routes. So for me, Super Metroid also keeps me locked down until I find that one thing I'm supposed to do, but instead of being locked in one area, like in Fusion, I'm usually spread across the entire world map! And that's when Super Metroid becomes tedious for me—that's when the kick-ass music and atmosphere loses its charm.

I want to love Super Metroid. I really do. But running around for hours wondering where to go just isn't my idea of fun.
Incredible atmosphere, brilliant soundtrack, tight gameplay, but I rather play a game that gives me more sense of direction.

So there. I said it. Super Metroid is considered one of the greatest games of all-time, but I have somewhat against it. Anyone else feel the same way? Or do you strongly disagree with me? If you can point something out that I am missing, and turn me into a fan of Super Metroid, then so be it—I do like the game's concept and theme.


P.S. The wall-jumps in this game suck.

>> No.1175379

Zero Mission is the best of both worlds, I've found - you have an indicator on where to go but you're otherwise free to explore.

>> No.1175395

>>1175379

I liked Zero Mission overall, but the rooms felt too cramped on account of so many cavernous areas being fit on such a small screen. Most of the time, you could jump and hit your head on the ceiling. Super Metroid had more open areas. Metroid II, as well.

I know it's a remake of the original Metroid's world and all, but I still would have preferred they took liberties in the interest of making the world less... claustrophobic.

>> No.1175398

>>1175379
Counter-point:
It's still very much hand-holding. I argue that it's more linear than Super Metroid, at least with the way its levels are designed.

>> No.1175424
File: 49 KB, 378x289, nostalgia-goggles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1175424

>>1175340

I whole heartily agree with you OP.

Of all the metroids, i like this one probably the least. (Either Hunters of Metroid 1 is lower.)

I also did not like there being a button to run, as in you have to press R to intiate a dash, and then jump, and the press a direction, and then also shoot.

At the time the point of having large sprites was to show off what the SNES could do but now when i play Super metroid i am anoyed by the Large boss sprites constantly bumping into me because they are so huge and i also take up a lot of room. also before you become a ball you have to crouch, so there is a major delay when you need to roll out of the way of something.

Everyone sucks this games dick, but honestly Zero Mission is much, much better.

And personally, i thing 3D metroid beats 2D metroid any day of the fucking week.

>> No.1175438

>I don't see this as being anymore linear than Super Metroid, because I can't pull off those tricky alternate routes.
So because you're not good enough at the game to do a thing, that thing doesn't matter? And no, the non-linearity of Super isn't just in the "tricky" alternate routes, the game provides you tons of ways to get to a particular location throughout the game thanks to its interconnected areas, many not requiring any more skill than the other. It's this choice that makes it non-linear.


The way I see it, the Metroid series as a whole (besides the bad entries) has two ways of enjoying the games. One is the first time one or two times you play through them, where you're discovering a new world and figuring things out. The second is on later replays, where the non-linearity really works in the games' favor by providing you with numerous interesting new ways for how to approach the games again.

>> No.1175441

>muh Fusion
>muh Zero Mission
>>>/v/

>> No.1175472

>>1175438
>So because you're not good enough at the game to do a certain thing, that thing doesn't matter?
Yup. Because the point of this thread is about my personal experience and opinion of the game. The way I see it, if I don't take those 'tricky' alternate routes, the game still comes off as linear to me, because even though I take a different path, I'm still going to the same boss, objective, etc. Beating bosses in different orders and stuff like that, yeah, that's when the game would feel less linear to me.

>The first time you play through them and discover things is when the games are fun
I totally agree. And that's where I get hindered from enjoying Super Metroid, because I run around aimlessly. It's either explore the game for hours until I get bored, or resort to an online guide, and that's no fun at all.

>> No.1175473

>>1175441
dude, shut up.

>> No.1175475

>>1175424
>I also did not like there being a button to run, as in you have to press R to intiate a dash, and then jump, and the press a direction, and then also shoot.

I play with the "Control Freak" patch. It enables auto running, changes the nature of aiming and makes it easier to activate and use missiles. It's more or less a copy of the GBA control scheme.

>> No.1175478

>>1175473
No you. Get back to /v/ if you can't stay on topic. Sick of you faggots treating this board like a less popular /v/.

>> No.1175487

If you're going to say a game is overrated, you should've picked FFVI.

>> No.1175491

>>1175478

Not the guy you are arguing with, but I'm pretty sure because Metroid began in 1986 that it's fair game to discuss the series here. Besides, the thread is primarily about Super Metroid and OP's view on the game and how it compares with the other 2D Metroids.

>> No.1175493

>>1175438
>So because you're not good enough at the game to do a thing, that thing doesn't matter?

I liked Super Metroid, but I have to agree that the control scheme made some areas artificially harder than they should have been. As mentioned, I play the game with a control patch >>1175475

It makes collecting all those missile expansions and power bombs a lot more practical. Fusion and Zero Mission had a lot of the same challenges in regard to collecting power ups, but it was substantially easier because the controls were simplified.

>> No.1175495

>>1175475
sounds good will look into it

>> No.1175496

>>1175472
Playing Super Metroid with a guide isn't any worse than playing one of the linear hand-holding games without one.

>> No.1175503

>>1175340
You're pretty retarded then, I was 8 when I played this and I had no guides/internet. And it took me like 5 or 6 hours.

>> No.1175504

>>1175493
>I have to agree that the control scheme made some areas artificially harder than they should have been
Name some. This should be good.

>> No.1175515

>>1175503
>You're pretty retarded
There goes OP's request for mature discussion

>> No.1175521

>>1175515
Not that anon, but I kind of feel like that request is being used as a get-out-of-criticism card. Wall jumping is just fine, for instance.

>> No.1175523

>>1175496
>Playing Super Metroid with a guide isn't any worse than playing one of the linear hand-holding games without one.
For me it is, because at least in Fusion I can explore and discover each new part of the game without getting lost

>> No.1175526

I played Super Metroid a few years after it was released. It was my first Metroid game, and I beat it without a guide, but it took me years. I could tell you all kinds of crazy stories about silly stuff I did, I remember going crazy trying to figure out how to open the yellow doors (I spent hours looking for the misplaced manual because I KNEW it had this info inside), I remember desperately shooting missiles at random walls until I completely by accident exposed the way into Kraid's lair. I even taught myself how to wall jump to escape out of multiple areas in the game I thought I had gotten myself stuck in.

That said, I don't like it that much anymore.

It's what the OP says. The combat isn't interesting and most of the time you find yourself just running around like an asshole until you've... run around like an asshole to the "correct" place. It's the same reason I hated Symphony of the Night when I played it. You just run around, mindlessly killing shit without a second thought, until you just happen to stumble upon something you were supposed to find.

>> No.1175528

>>1175521
>but I kind of feel like that request is being used as a get-out-of-criticism card.

What? No it isn't.

You can criticize the OP all you want without resorting to "ur a faget/retard/etc"

>> No.1175531

>>1175504

As I already said, collecting some of the missile expansions and power bombs. Not the ones found in obvious spots, but the ones that require shinesparking and series of other techniques with flawless timing and execution. ZM and Fusion repeated a lot of these challenges, but the only hard part was the timing of regenerating blocks, whereas in Super Metroid, you had to hope you didn't fumble with the control scheme just trying to pull off these techniques in the first place.

>> No.1175537

>>1175528
Okay then, all of OP's criticisms amount to him sucking at the game and he should learn to play.

>> No.1175541

>>1175521
No, that request was for people to examine and discuss my opinions of Super Metroid with valid points. Just telling me to go hell because I'm not a big Super Metroid fan doesn't make for good conversation. If someone disagrees with me, I'm all for hearing their opinions and ideas. It's the whole point of me posting this thread, after all.

>> No.1175550

>>1175531
>collecting some of the missile expansions and power bombs. Not the ones found in obvious spots, but the ones that require shinesparking and series of other techniques with flawless timing and execution.
I meant specific examples.

And of course those are all optional. Do you think the game should just hand optional upgrades to you on a plate? Why should they even exist if it doesn't take some effort to get them?

>> No.1175569

>>1175550
>Do you think the game should just hand optional upgrades to you on a plate?

You're misunderstanding my post. Again, ZM and Fusion repeated these very same challenges, timing and all. The difference is the control scheme. The only reason they're more difficult in Super Metroid is because the controls are somewhat unwieldy. This is an example of artificial difficulty, not a genuine challenge.

I don't want to dig up some game maps of SM and find specific examples of power ups that are hard to get. This is just a general statement.

>> No.1175573

>>1175569
I want some specific examples because I don't agree with your unwieldiness complaint a bit. I really hope you weren't playing with the default button mappings.

>> No.1175583

>>1175491
>Not the guy you are arguing with, but I'm pretty sure because Metroid began in 1986 that it's fair game to discuss the series here.
No, comparing how every game in the series stacks up to one another would be a topic for /v/. /vr/ is where discussion limited to only the first three Metroid games is appropriate. Otherwise it doesn't make a /vr/ Metroid discussion any different from a /v/ Metroid discussion.

>> No.1175591

>>1175537
I've beaten Super Metroid plenty of times. I actually beat many of the game's bosses on my first try. My complaints focus on the fact that I spend far too much time 'exploring' than I would prefer.

Oh sure, I could beat the game, memorize the map, do speed-runs, etc. if I wanted to. The problem is, I don't want to, because I take fault with the game itself, rather than my gaming skills.

My main fault is running around for an hour unsure where to go, until the game gets boring. You could just sum it up by saying I suck at the game if you want, but I've played other games that require thinking, puzzle solving, exploring, etc. and had more enjoyment with them. So a big part of me says it's not me, but rather it's just the game.

The thing about Super Metroid is that the map is BIG. So if there are no clues on where to go next, how does one know where to go? Simple. You don't. You have to explore every last nook and cranny until you find it, and sometimes you may overlook the room you should be in versus the hundred places you are aimlessly running around in. This is where the game gets tedious for me.

>> No.1175596
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1175596

>>1175537

Nah, you should just learn to read and then learn to discuss.

Or just do us all a favor and go back to /v/.

>> No.1175597

>>1175583

I don't; but it's not about remapping controls like the run or fire buttons. You still can't change the nature of selecting and activating missiles, which is a problem when, say, you're running down a corridor and have to switch to and active missiles to destroy an obstacle in your path *without* slowing down. There are too many controls involved in this. On the GBA, all you have to do is hold down the R trigger to keep your missile launcher ready, and Samus runs by default.

Now, when I play SM with the hacked control scheme, it's a piece of cake to pull off maneuvers like that.

>> No.1175603

>>1175597

I somehow responded to the wrong post. That was meant for >>1175573

>> No.1175609

>>1175597
>which is a problem when, say, you're running down a corridor and have to switch to and active missiles to destroy an obstacle in your path *without* slowing down.
Uh, no? Continue holding L for run and forward, press A button to switch to super missile, press Y to fire. Then only real complaint with Super's controls is that it doesn't let you map diagonal aiming to inputs other than the shoulder buttons. Thankfully though, you hardly ever have a reason to shoot diagonally down while stationary.

>> No.1175619

>>1175609
>Thankfully though, you hardly ever have a reason to shoot diagonally down while stationary.
Proof that not everyone discussing Super Metroid on /vr/ has recently played it

>> No.1175623

>>1175591
How in the world do you end up
>running around for hours, until I find that ONE PLACE I was supposed to go
if you've beaten the game multiple times? And Super's map really isn't as big as it seems. It's just small enough for a single-sitting speed run to be a really enjoyable experience. That's one of the things certain ROMhacks are missing when they explode the map to double its size.

>> No.1175630

>>1175619
Try again faggot, I just beat it under 50 minutes again a few days ago. Maybe you should address my statement with plentiful examples to the contrary.

>> No.1175640

>>1175623
I don't play Super Metroid every month. Sometimes I even go a couple years without playing it, so I never memorized the game. Plus, I play SO MANY games frequently, I'm not sure my brain has enough room to memorize Super Metroid or all the key places I'm supposed to go.

>> No.1175648

>>1175340
This whole thread seems kind of pointless the way it's framed. Really, if you have that much of a problem with how the game is, then just don't play it. You're not under any obligation to like or enjoy a game just because a lot of other people do, or you like some individual aspects of it. Personally, I've run into the same with a lot of games. If something about a game bothers you that much, you just have to walk away from it.

>> No.1175653

Super Metroid does a brilliant job of funneling the player to where they need to go next without holding their hand, it's one of the reasons the game is so highly praised. Give this a read, OP.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HugoBille/20120114/9236/The_Invisible_Hand_of_Super_Metroid.php

>> No.1175657
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1175657

>>1175630

Gee. I'd sure to love to shoot that enemy down there, without getting in its line of fire...

>> No.1175665

>>1175340
>Super Metroid also keeps me locked down
No it doesn't. You keep yourself locked down. Don't blame SM for your faults that you entirely enjoy.

>> No.1175669

>>1175648
Well the whole point of /vr/ is to discuss games, right? Simply praising games all the time would get boring, so why not discuss what we don't like about games, too? It can make for interesting discussion and can sometimes bring up overlooked points.

>>1175653
And alright, I'll check that link out. Thanks!

>> No.1175671

>>1175657
Good, that's one example, let's hear more. And it's not a great one anyway, because you can simply fall down that shaft on the right or left side while shooting downward and be both safer and faster for it.

Super Metroid throws tons of scenarios with enemies coming at you above and laterally, but situations in which you would genuinely want to aim at something diagonally downward while stationary are actually exceedingly rare.

>> No.1175686

>>1175671
Really the only times I can think of where shooting diagonally down while stationary genuinely helps is for aiming precisely at those yellow jumping blob things in some rooms in order to freeze and use them as platforms. You're really not missing much by ditching diagonal down to free up a shoulder button for something else.

>> No.1175690

>>1175671
>Good, that's one example, let's hear more.
I rather not spend my time looking for references to shoot down/right or down/left in a video game. Shooting diagonal is common sense in a Metroid game. It's not worth my time explaining this basic gameplay mechanic if you don't get it.

>> No.1175695

>>1175671
>situations in which you would genuinely want to aim at something diagonally downward while stationary are actually exceedingly rare
You just admitted the situations exist...

>> No.1175701

>>1175690
Then I guess you submit defeat and admit that times in which aiming at something diagonally downward while stationary genuinely help you are indeed exceedingly rare.

>>1175695
I never said they didn't.

>> No.1175707

>>1175695
>You just admitted the situations exist...
He did.
You also didn't cross his threshold of 'exceedingly rare.' In fact a one time example would be exceedingly rare.

>> No.1175709

>>1175701
Nope. I am just capable of using all the gameplay elements to my advantage. You say the need for downward diagonal shots are super rare. I already proved there are times they can come in handy. Where is your proof/example of them not being as handy?

>> No.1175719

>>1175709
I explained to you how unnecessary it was for the one example you provided. That times in which it's useful are entirely non-existent was never my argument to begin with. Quit trying to change my argument to save face.

>> No.1175735

>>1175719
No, you didn't. Jumping down the side of the wall and shooting downwards is faster, but if you want to stock up on weapons, then perhaps you are trying to kill all the enemies in that room. In that case, the move comes in handy. Just because shooting in a certain direction doesn't match YOUR style, does not mean it doesn't match other player's styles.

>> No.1175743
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1175743

>>1175735
Why would you waste your time in that room of all things trying to stock up? There are better places in the rooms directly adjacent to it.

>> No.1175745

>>1175743
Again, you offer no proof. Just your opinion and YOUR way of playing.

>> No.1175749

>>1175743

What kind of fag keeps a picture like that saved on their computer?

>> No.1175750

>>1175745
I asked you a question anon. Explain to me why someone would do that.

>> No.1175757

>>1175735
Yeah... that's not a stock room really. There's really no reason to that ever. If you had wanted to stock in that room you'd need to go over there anyway, you'd just over, shoot down then flip off the wall.
Your argument doesn't hold water in any playstyle.

>> No.1175758

>>1175750
I already did. Because they want to kill those enemies and stock up. Simple.

>> No.1175764

>>1175757
Not true. If the player wants to stock there, that's their choice. But even if there are better rooms to stock in, they would still need to kill all the enemies in a particular area, therefore diagonal shooting would come in handy. Also, the player may be low on health/weapons and need them right away.

>> No.1175762

>>1175758
But why would they do that? The rooms joining it at the bottom and at the top provide an instantly easier-to-access set of enemies outside their doors to kill and restock on.

>> No.1175768

>>1175762
Because MY play style which is inherently stupid is the way I play because I don't want to be wrong and look like an asshat. That's my way of the ninja, believe it!

>> No.1175781

>>1175768
Hey if he wants to set Jump to Select and Run to Start and call the game's controls shit because playing the game that way is terrible then I guess that's certainly his prerogative.

>> No.1175785

>>1175768
>>1175781

It same fag

>> No.1175790

>>1175764
So now your argument switches from shooting diagonal out of necessity which wasn't, since by dropping down you'd still collect fasting and climbing back up and shooting straight would still be faster. But playing badly is still a personal choice that determines necessity.
To shooting diagonal in any room you want to collect?

>Also, the player may be low on health/weapons and need them right away.

If you're that bad, the option you don't take is to stock in a room that's more difficult to restock in. If you were low on health, you wouldn't be fucking around there, you'd find easier ground to work on. No one does that. It is literally the opposite of what anyone in that situation would do.

>> No.1175791

>>1175764
Ah, health. When you're in a pinch. That makes a little more sense. However going to the walls there to pick up what they drop and risk falling into another enemy is a bit risky as it is. Why not simply drop to the bottom while shooting down while you're at it... And if you're climbing the room then there's of course no reason to shoot down since all the enemies are above you.

>> No.1175792

>>1175781
I'm actually using all of the game's controls to my advantage. Including shooting in different directions. Go somewhere else and tell a gamer that being able to shoot in added directions doesn't have benefits. See if they laugh at you.

>> No.1175801

>>1175790
>If you were low on health, you wouldn't be fucking around there
If that's the area you were low on health, then you would. It's sometimes easier to shoot enemies than to dodge them. Basic gaming knowledge.

>> No.1175804
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1175804

>>1175785
Go to bed kiddo.

>> No.1175806

>>1175792
You can already shoot in all directions, a button just lets you do it while not moving laterally. The whole point of this entire insipid argument was that stationary diagonal down aim was so rare that you could map something more useful to a shoulder button like Run and free up your thumb's face button you for more fluid action control.

>> No.1175807

>>1175791
>going to the walls there to pick up what they drop and risk falling into another enemy is a bit risky
Not if you're good enough to execute it. Might not be for health, either. Player might just want some extra weapons.

>> No.1175809

>>1175806
*thumb's face button use

Seriously, give it a try sometime, you miss out on almost nothing playing through the game without diagonal-down aim.

>> No.1175812

>>1175804

>paint

>> No.1175814

>>1175807
If you're good enough to execute it then why would you waste your time? Just fall down the shaft and continue on to the next room where refilling your health or weapons is much safer, faster, and more intuitive.

>> No.1175816

>>1175806
Again, you only stated your way of playing. You haven't proved it is superior.

>> No.1175821

>>1175812
>snipping tool

>> No.1175827

>>1175814
That's only one example of one room. Can you honestly say that EVERY room in Super Metroid, when you are trying to restock, there's hardly a need for shooting down/right or down/left?

>> No.1175828

>but I rather play a game that gives me more sense of direction.

Super Metroid gives you an absurd amount of direction. With the one-way gates, green and yellow doors, one-way crumbling blocks, blocks that can only be broken with the Speed Booster, blocks that can only be broken with the Screw Attack, very hot rooms that tell you that you should traverse them in the Varia Suit, acid and water that tell you that you should traverse them in the Gravity Suit, etc. The game is designed to always lead you on the correct path. It's pretty much impossible to get lost.

>> No.1175832

>>1175340
>The wall-jumps in this game suck.
You're a fucking idiot.

>> No.1175829

>>1175816
I have explained the benefits, you're just being obtuse for the sake of arguing now.

>> No.1175835

>>1175821

FAIL

>> No.1175838

>>1175816
No, you seem to be missing the point where you have to fucking think. It was already explained to you that there is no style where it's beneficial to do that. Period.

If you suck, you don't want to do that.
If you don't suck, you don't have to do that or have trouble shooting them in the first place.

You literally have to be a fucking retard to think that it's a viable thing to sit there and do.
If you're that fucking stupid, there are bigger problems that impede you, like not to use a game-pad and breathe at the same time.

>> No.1175839

>>1175829
And I have explained why shooting diagonal can come in handy.

>> No.1175842

>>1175835
That doesn't mean anything retard.

>> No.1175843

>>1175379
Whenever I hear zero mission I always remember how much metroid II needs a remake

>> No.1175846

>>1175838
>You literally have to be a fucking retard to think that it's a viable thing to sit there and do
Then prove it. You keep going on and on why YOU don't use this technique. So every other player who does use it is not playing as tight as they could be? Prove it.

>> No.1175851

>>1175827
I don't know why you would choose EVERY room to restock, but yes that's basically correct. The enemies specifically there for restocking in the game, which that rise from pipes and such from below you, are better fired at from your level so you can easily pick up what they drop. In other areas for restocking you can simply crouch and fire at low enemies (safer than getting close to them for diagonal), and I can't think of any other instances with respawning enemies where you would genuinely want to handle them like that, in order to restock. You're going to be approaching an enemy directly to pick up what it drops anyway.

>> No.1175853

>>1175839
No, you've explained to him that you want it be handy.
You've explained to him that you 'thought' that might be a handy place to do it.

But you did not explain to him that it would be handy. You were given explanation in why it is in fact, not handy. Quite the opposite of handy. It was explained to you that it is anti-handy and obstructive to the goal you said.

>> No.1175854

>>1175806
>stationary diagonal down aim was so rare that you could map something more useful to a shoulder button like Run and free up your thumb's face button you for more fluid action control.

This.

Shoot = Y
Jump = B
Run = R
Angle Up = L
Item Select = X
Item Cancel = A

Comfiest way I've found to play Super Metroid.

>> No.1175861

>>1175843
This

>> No.1175862

>>1175853
All that has been explained to me is HIS style of playing. Proof is required. This has already been explained to you.

>> No.1175868

Guys, hate to break it to you, but I've seen speed runners use diagonal shooting. There are actually people who play Metroid that don't shoot in all directions?

>> No.1175879

>But the problem is, if I don't use a guide, I end up running around for hours, until I find that ONE PLACE I was supposed to go

OP, super metroid isn't that large or complex that it takes hours to find something. i'm talking about just beating the game. while playing you see barriers you can't pass yet so remember them for later. i found it pretty obvious where to go. sure, if you would like to speedrun it or 100% completion, it involves a lot of searching. however, at that point there's no stress. take your time, save often, at some point you find all secrets.

>> No.1175874

>>1175868
I hate to break it to you anon, but you don't need the the angle up and down inputs in order to aim diagonally.

>> No.1175884

>>1175868
Exactly. True Super Metroid players know to use every possible technique and control to their advantage. I mean, why wouldn't they? Just because someone is not as good as using that method or style of play, doesn't mean everyone else is, too.

>> No.1175887

>>1175862
No. It's been explained. You're just being an idiot.
Go read the thread again, then again. Then for a third time because you're fucking slow.
Try mouthing the words and take your time so you understand what they mean.

>> No.1175898

>>1175874
I saw a guy playing Super Metroid (he wasn't speed running, though) and he was awesome at it. He shot downwards while standing still. Wait, I'm confused. Are we saying shooting down while stationary is bad or something?

>> No.1175902

>>1175898
Not at all, read the rest of the thread and you'll get your answer.

>> No.1175905

>>1175887
Getting angry and using hateful words still doesn't prove your fictitious point, anon.

>> No.1175907

>>1175487

Thank fucking god someone brought that game up. It is even more overrated then FFVII

>> No.1175917

>>1175898
Anon is trying to say that shooting downward while standing still is not a good technique to use, and only on rare instances would you need it.

>> No.1175921

>>1175917
A straw man is an intentional misrepresentation of an opponent's position, often used in debates with unsophisticated audiences to make it appear that the opponent's arguments are more easily defeated than they are, or by an opponent who wants to save face after their own arguments have been defeated.

The title of the argument comes from the art of practising fighting techniques against men made of straw: which is a problem in that straw men don't fight back, don't wear armor, don't bleed and generally aren't anything like the sort of thing you would actually encounter in a battle. Therefore someone arguing against a straw man is just arguing against an idealised opponent that only exists in their own head.

>> No.1175926

>>1175917
Well fuck, I shoot like that all the time.

>>1175902
So people are just trying to flame, I see. Yeah, I don't get it either. Plenty of times enemies were below me and I had to shoot towards that direction.

>> No.1175932

>>1175921
Read the thread. Anon was CLEARLY saying that shooting diagonal and down is only needed in rare instances. Lots of good players play Super Metroid using this technique, however, so he is obviously wrong. We are waiting for anon to prove his point, and so far, he has only provided examples of how HE plays.

Unless anon is now trying to change his stance on the matter, because he realizes he cannot prove how HIS style is superior...

>> No.1175936

>>1175932
>Anon was CLEARLY saying that shooting diagonal and down is only needed in rare instances.
Correct. What was not said however, was this
>Anon is trying to say that shooting downward while standing still is not a good technique to use

Next fallacy please. Or you could just admit you were wrong already. This is getting pretty embarrassing.

>> No.1175945

>>1175905
Getting angry and projecting that anger onto other people still doesn't nullify valid points.

>> No.1175948

>>1175936
If shooting in a certain direction is only needed in rare situations, that would imply it is not a good technique. We are talking about people who good at this game, right? So why waste time on a technique that isn't very beneficial. A good technique would be something you use often for best results. You are either backpedaling, or don't understand the connection between a good technique being something that is often used in a game, instead of just in rare situations.

>> No.1175958

>>1175948
>You are either backpedaling, or don't understand the connection between a good technique being something that is often used in a game, instead of just in rare situations.
You're right, I don't. Sorry anon I'm just not seeing how the two are the same here. You're making a leap in meaning to come up with an easy way to attack my argument.

And if you're going to use the appeal to authority fallacy instead of listening to the logical reasons given, I regularly beat Super Metroid in ~45 minute times, that has to count for something right? I don't waste time on stationary diagonal down aim because that's exactly what it is.

>> No.1175962

>>1175340
It sounds like Super Metroid is too hard for you, which is a little ridiculous but I guess it happens. It's not particularly difficult or time consuming for me to finish it without a guide. And wall jumping is easy.

So: dude bad at super metroid dislikes super metroid. sounds about right to me

>> No.1175975

>>1175958
>You're right, I don't. Sorry anon I'm just not seeing how the two are the same here.
If the technique is good, then it is something you would want to use often instead of just in rare situations. Simple.

If you say your way is better, then prove it. You have yet to prove how shooting diagonal and down is not good for when you are collecting drops from enemies.

>> No.1175971

>>1175948
>A good technique would be something you use often for best results.

A technique being good doesn't mean you should or even could use it often. For example, just because you can walljump in Super Metroid doesn't mean you always should when you have the opportunity, because another technique such as the Spineshark would be a better option. Or sometimes a good technique is one that can only be executed under very specific conditions and trying to replicate those conditions may be more troublesome than approaching the situation in a different way.

The quality of a technique does not automatically imply a high frequency of use.

>> No.1175979

>>1175971
You miss the point of the argument. The argument was not about using moves only when you have to, but which moves are more effective when you have the option of using it. Read the thread.

>> No.1175985

>>1175979
You're arguing that good techniques are ones you want to use frequently.

I explained why that wasn't always the case. A good technique is not always a technique you can use often.

>> No.1175986

>>1175975
>If the technique is good, then it is something you would want to use often instead of just in rare situations. Simple.
No, it isn't that simple. Good is not the same as useful. And in Super Metroid aiming diagonally down while stationary simply isn't that useful.

>You have yet to prove
see
>>1175851

I must confess I am getting tired of this argument. If you don't come up with something tangible to argue with again or just admit you're wrong already soon I'm going to go speed run Super Metroid.

>> No.1175990

>>1175985
You can shoot downward and diagonal any time you want, so this technique can be used as often as you like.

>> No.1175991

>>1175340
>But running around for hours wondering where to go just isn't my idea of fun.

For those of us who aren't 12, they included a walkthrough in the box with the cartridge.

It had maps with tips, but just little enough detail that you had to figure everything out yourself.

Back to press x to win pls

>> No.1175997

>>1175986
Still no proof. You are only copying and pasting comments already previously made in the thread, as if to imply we haven't already read them.

Again, lost of good Super Metroid players use that technique often. It is YOU who are saying the technique is not useful. It is me who is asking you to prove it.

And leaving this argument still won't prove your points.

>> No.1176006

>>1175997
You're a terrible troll and your efforts to disguise your initial wrongness by morphing it into intentional stupidity and bad arguing are quite transparent. I'm going to go play video games, have fun feeling right because you got the last word.

>> No.1176008

>>1175991
>For those of us who aren't 12
I'm not 12, and I played Super Metroid when it was brand new, and this is the first I've heard of this. I don't think you should make assumptions like that.

>> No.1176013

>plays a genre about getting lost and exploring

>complains that he gets lost and has to explore

Your arguement has as much weight as someone who says mario sucks because its all about running and jumping.

>> No.1176014

>>1176006
It is YOU who says only your way of playing Super Metroid is useful. I have only said there are different ways and techniques that are useful, including techniques you think are bad. And since you cannot prove that everyone else's way is not as good to use as your own, you wisely ditch the argument before making your situation any worse. Can't say I blame you.

But in the future, just know there are lost of great gamers with different playing styles.

>> No.1176024

>>1175991
the manual told you what the power ups did, which is already pretty self explanitory in the game,

it also came with some extremly generic tips like
"if you dont know where to go try exploring other places"
"if you are stuck try using any new abilities you have acquired"
"returning to your ship restocks all your health and ammo"

>> No.1176039 [DELETED] 

>>1176014
Ignore him, he's just being a fucking dipshit. He'll trail off to /v/ or /vg/ eventually.

>> No.1176050

>>1176039
I know, but it's hard to ignore, because it bugs me when someone claims only their techniques of playing a game are any good. He just doesn't get it. There's no way he can prove what he is saying holds weight, but lots of good gamers use the techniques is so passionately against. I know the argument is a waste of my time, and perhaps I was just being baited. If so, then he played me well. But saying only his way of playing is useful? Get real. Lmao

>> No.1176056

>>1176050

You was baited. I hate all these 'pro-gamers' that clog up /vr/. Just ignore them.

>>1175340

I don't think your ideas are wrong like some of the other posters do. Super Metroid is my all-time favorite SNES game, but I admit it can be hard to navigate. I don't see why using a guide spoils the fun, though. Do what you have to do, man.

>> No.1176063

>>1176056
>I don't see why using a guide spoils the fun, though.
Because a primary focus of the game is exploration. Using a guide is saying "No, I don't want to explore in this game about exploring." It's unreasonable, and prompts an obvious question...

...why are you playing a game about exploration if you don't want to explore?

>> No.1176070

It's not as easy to navigate compared to easier similiar settings like SoTN

>> No.1176071

>>1176063
Not the guy you are green texting, but there's no shame in using a guide, sometimes. If you are absolutely stuck, then why not?

>> No.1176076

>>1176063

Well that's a good point. I guess using a guide is close to cheating. Maybe it IS cheating. But it's better than not playing the game at all.

>> No.1176083

>>1176071
>If you are absolutely stuck, then why not?
but muh gamer cred

>> No.1176085

>>1176083
Go to /v/, please. Most of us adults use grammar on this board.

>> No.1176091

>>1176071
>If you are absolutely stuck, then why not?
Because the purpose of a video game is to be presented with challenges that you overcome. It does nothing but ruin that challenge (which quite frankly isn't even that difficult to begin with) and sets you up for situations where you STILL haven't adequately learned how to properly search your environment, meaning guess what... ten minutes later, you're right back to the guide again.

>> No.1176097

>>1176085
You seem really upset over nothing.

And there was nothing grammatically incorrect about that sentence.

>> No.1176101

>>1176091

Well said. This is the reason why OP stated his/her frustration with the game. I noticed OP claimed that resorting to a guide is no fun. This is why even though Super Metroid has plenty of guides posted online, there are still a few gamers who take offense with the game. Resorting to a strategy guide doesn't always FIX a game for you.

>> No.1176105

>>1176097
>Uses the word 'please'
>Anon insists that I am upset
>but muh gamer cred is grammatically correct

>> No.1176104

>>1176091
>Because the purpose of a video game

The purpose of video games is to have fun.

>in b4 but challenge is fun

Yes, yes it is, but it's not the only thing that makes games fun, nor is it the main reason everyone plays.

>> No.1176106

>>1176104
>nor is it the main reason everyone plays
Congratulations, you've summed up why the industry is plagued with so many degenerate games today.

>> No.1176110

>>1176105

Look up what grammar is.

>> No.1176115

>>1176106

Because everyone knows games like Mario and Kirby were ridiculously hard challenges that.

Of course you also have games like Harvest Moon, that were in no way ever intended to be challenging.

>> No.1176121

>>1176110
Oh! You got me there. Allow me to rewrite my previous statement about anon's delightful "but muh gamer cred" comment.

Go to /v/, please. Most of us adults use proper English grammar on this board.

>> No.1176125

>>1176121
You still don't know what grammar is it seems.

Protip: When attempting to appear intelligent, make sure you know what you're talking about first.

>> No.1176127

>>1176121

You! Stop flaming this thread, already. Slang is common on 4chan. Let me guess, you that guy who flamed earlier about his god-like abilities on Super Metroid and how everyone who fucking shoots down/right can't play as good as him?! FUCK

>> No.1176128

>>1176125
I said "proper English grammar." Which you have no clue what that means.

>> No.1176132

>>1176128

Grammar is not punctuation, Anon. You would have known this if you bothered to look it up!

>> No.1176138

I love Super Metroid, but I kinda agree with something op said, which is, that without a guide it is really easy to get lost and not know what to do for hours.
Here I often read that xxxx game is very easy, when playing it for the first time, without a guide, without knowing anything, is not that easy at all.

The difference in difficulty between the first time you play it and you have to discover everything, and the other times in which you replay the game and you already know what to do, is huge.

This is why I don't think these games are that replayable. Once you discover how to advance, you no longer get stuck or lost, there is not so much point in playing it again.

But unlike OP I enjoy getting lost or not knowing what to do, because of the sensation of reward I get when I figure out how to continue advancing.
I generally vote for Super Metroid as best game ever.

>> No.1176141

>>1176132
Who said anything about punctuation? If you don't understand how "but muh gamer cred" is not "proper English grammar"...

...I been baited, again, haven't I? Well played, anon. Well played.

>>1176127
WRONG!

>> No.1176148

>>1176141

Well go on an explain it, professor, since you know so much (little) about what grammar is.

>> No.1176157

>>1176148
The bait is strong with this one.

>> No.1176159

>>1176157
Well, I guess you don't have an actual argument here, so okay. Next time don't bother opening your mouth if you don't want to explain yourself.

>> No.1176163
File: 55 KB, 625x626, Bait.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1176163

>>1176159

So tempting...

NO!

Must resist... cannot let him win...

>> No.1176179

>>1176159
Wait a second... I'm starting to think you are not baiting and just really don't understand.

Anyways, just Google "What is proper English grammar" and a few good links will come up. I suggest you read them.

>> No.1177383

Metroid Prime struck a nice compromise. It lets you fully explore most of the world, like Super Metroid, but it has an optional hint system where after about thirty minutes, the game will automatically tell you where you should go next. And unlike the 3D Zelda games, it manages to do it in a non-irritating, non-immersion-ruining way.

>> No.1177386

>(Mature discussion wanted.)

>> No.1177404

>>1175843
>>1175861
http://metroid2remake.b!ogspot.com

>> No.1177410

>>1175832
Maybe he's playing Super Metroid with the keyboard.

>> No.1177741

>>1177410
I find a keyboard the most natural way to pull off wall jumps myself.