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/vr/ - Retro Games

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1144498 No.1144498 [Reply] [Original]

can we talk about games that aren't as fun/haven't aged well?

As much as it pains me to say, pic related. This game makes me appreciate Halo more for what it did for console shooters. Has anybody played the harder difficulty modes? Is auto aim gone? If it is, I can't even imagine trying to aim with the R button.

Although not technically retro, I bought the ICO collection and after trying to beat the second colossi I quit. I thought the controls were quite bad.

>> No.1144506

>>1144498
Your solution is to play the 360 port of Perfect Dark.

Real talk, it's excellent.

>> No.1144509

>>1144506

the controls are better and everything?

How about the level design? Maybe because I just started on Agent since that's what my 10+ year save file was on, but it seems kind of boring compared to Halo

>> No.1144516

i hate to be that guy, but first off, if you could please stop comparing perfect dark to halo that would be fantastic

second off, no, the 360 port doesn't change the level design

>> No.1144515

>>1144509
Download the demo and try it for yourself.

And play on Perfect Agent. Agent is babby mode.

>> No.1144518

I did a Perfect Agent run of that back in August, it was fantastic. Really made me appreciate the extra thought that went into the additional objectives on higher difficulties as well and the gunplay is still really quite satisfying.

>doesn't like SotC
>PD seems kind of boring compared to Halo

... okay, have fun with the thread i guess

>> No.1144517

I feel like the majority of N64 games haven't aged well. There is no denying that the N64 was a spectacular system back in the day, but I feel like they just don't have the value and charm that they used to. Whenever I reach for a 5th generation system, it's always Saturn. Now, Saturn was always my favorite anyway, but still. I loved 64 also. I just feel like where Saturn games still stand true in 2013, most N64 titles fall short of how good they seemed in 1998. However, some titles will always remain like Bomberman Hero.

>> No.1144521

>>1144498
The problem is you were playing the game wrong.

You're supposed to move with the c-buttons and aim with the stick. The R aiming is only used for precise targeting.

The auto aim is toned down on higher difficulties, and it can be disabled completely in the options menu.

>> No.1144525

>>1144516
>>1144518

what would be better to compare it to? I just remember playing it when it came out and it was literally a GOAT game for me, but now it just seemed boring. I though Halo was the "console shooter revolution" (I wouldn't know, as I didn't own an Xbox til 2005, the only FPS I had for Ps2 were the Medal of Honor ps2 games and James Bond ps2 games).

>> No.1144528

>>1144517

I think it's the genre also, I find ps1 rpgs are still great and SoTN but those genres rely less on precise/advanced gaming controls than like a platformer does.

>> No.1144534

>>1144516

have you played the port? Do the 360 controls really enhance the game?

>> No.1144536

>>1144525
Goldeneye was the console shooter revolution. It outsold Halo by quite a large margin. PD just followed in its footsteps.

>>1144534
>have you played the port? Do the 360 controls really enhance the game?
It's a matter of taste. There's a bit of a problem with the analogue sticks on the 360 port being waaay too twitchy. Some people prefer the crisper feel of moving with c-buttons, too.

>> No.1144540

>>1144536
>prefer the C-buttons

guilty over here. Turok: Dinosaur Hunter pioneered that shit and I couldn't get enough of it

>> No.1144546

>>1144528
Well, there's no denying that RPGs were at their best in the 90's no matter what system they were on. I guess every genre was better in the 90's. Man I miss the 5th generation. Saturn every day and every night.

>> No.1144545

>>1144536

well I knew Goldeneye was the true revolution, but I guess Halo was considered to bring the next step or something, Idk what it did special. Was it the dual sticks?

>>1144536
>>1144540

looks like I gotta get my c-buttons going, as I pretty much never used them except for the final boss.

>> No.1144551

>>1144540
Half Life on Dreamcast used the ABXY buttons for movement, mimicking the N64 controller, and it worked really well. Only problem was the DC controller has fewer buttons than the N64, so functions were mapped to the D-Pad.

>Halo was considered to bring the next step or something, Idk what it did special. Was it the dual sticks?
Not really - it was just marketing and hype. Halo 2 did sell more than GE, slightly. Halo was "my first FPS" for millions of console players who had skipped the N64 in favor of the PS1.

>>1144545
>looks like I gotta get my c-buttons going, as I pretty much never used them except for the final boss.
You need to change the control scheme to something like 1.2, and preferably turn off aim inverting.

>> No.1144554

>>1144545
>Idk what it did special

i hated halo but even i can admit that halo did a tremendous job of getting new people into gaming. i'd argue that for better or worse halo brought gaming into the accepted mainstream and made it "cool" to sit on a couch with your bros and shoot mans

what those bros didn't know though was that you were fucking lethal with that pistol because you were playing goldeneye while they were throwing footballs

>> No.1144567

The problem with the whole "has PD dated" question is that there are very few games which sit in the same sub-genre of FPS. Really, only Deus Ex and No-One Lives Forever are comparable.

>> No.1144574

perfect dark is almost entirly about positioning and picking the right weapon.

Its not an aiming game or a dodging game.
You are supposed to approach the enemies at angles that make it so only 1 or 2 can hit you at time.

When forced to fight multiple enemies at once you need to have your explosives out (ideally before the fight even begins).

The R butten aiming is not something you do very often, its mostly for sniping.

>> No.1144617

>>1144545
AFAIK Halo was the first shooter to do the "you can only hold two weapons at once" thing, which brought an element of strategy to the genre and made the game much easier to play on consoles (it's hard enough swapping through 6+ weapons on a PC, let alone a console with one or maybe two buttons for switching). More obviously, it was a launch title for the X-Box, and one of the first twin-stick shooters -- while controllers are obviously inferior to the classic PC keyboard+mouse setup, it really was leaps-and-bounds above trying to aim with a Nintendo 64 controller.

It was also the first popular console game with LAN play, which was an amazing experience in a pre-ubiquitous-internet world. I've since discovered better games, but few gaming experiences I've had will compare to my days of hauling my 2 ton Xbox over to a friends place and having anywhere from 6 to 16 dudes in the same room playing against each other.

I've only played Halo 1 and 2, but they're really great games. I played Halo 2 for the first time in years a few weeks ago with a friend of mine. After we stopped laughing at the quality of the graphics (it was probably better on single player, but with split screen, the texture quality was truly hideous), we were surprised by how solid the 1v1 multiplayer was (so long as we agreed not to use the sword, rocket launcher, or overshields).

I think people only hate on Halo because they remember that a few years ago, it was considered the equivalent of CoD. "Poor kids these days, growing up on Halo instead of Mario/Sonic/whatever." I agreed with them at the time, but in hindsight, I'd much rather go back to the days when Halo was the popular annoying kid/"bro" game, instead of this CoD garbage.

>> No.1144626

>>1144617
Halo 2 was absolute fucking dog shit. All it "added" was online multiplayer which was probably a change for the worse.

>> No.1144629

>>1144626
But Halo 2's storytelling and combat was pretty well done, and that's the most important part of a Halo game.

The overscripting and linearity was grating, though.

>> No.1144647

>>1144509
Most important thing that the 360 version improves on is the framerate, gaddamn

>> No.1144649

>>1144525
I've played the Xbox port and I was pleased with what I got. I have played it less than I expected to but that's because it's actually pretty challenging for me on 2nd difficulty and I haven't got the attention span right now. I'm surprised because back in the day this game was my jam and I beat it pretty thoroughly.

>> No.1144652

>>1144498

>haven't aged well

While I do believe in the concept of games aging well/badly, Perfect Dark didn't age badly because it was as bad when it came out as it is now. Consoles are not a platform to play FPS games on. PD and Goldeneye were fundementally worse than other games of their era, even if they had interesting little quirks about them

>>1144617

>AFAIK Halo was the first shooter to do the "you can only hold two weapons at once" thing, which brought an element of strategy to the genre

Counter-strike, which also took 7 hells of a lot more strategy than Halo did

>> No.1144656

>>1144617
That LAN experience was THE definitive Halo experience. People only ever did that with that game, but EVERYONE did that. In my senior year the last couple months were just bullshit so people gathered in a back room in the Photography room and played 16-man games. It was a unifying experience for an otherwise clique-ish school

>> No.1144658

>>1144652
>Consoles are not a platform to play FPS games on. PD and Goldeneye were fundementally worse than other games of their era, even if they had interesting little quirks about them
And what are you basing this on? If, for example, we regard No-One Lives Forever 2 as an example of a good PC FPS existing in a similar genre, how is PD worse?

>> No.1144661

>>1144658

Having not played NOLF2, I can't directly compare the games, but off the bat I can say the controls and framerate are massively better in NOLF2 than PD just by virtue of being a PC game

>> No.1144665

>>1144661
That's being a tad PC-elitist, if you don't mind me saying. NOLF was on consoles, too. In fact, most classic PC games have console ports. This doesn't change the quality of the games themselves.

>> No.1144667

>>1144652
>Counter-strike
Good point. To be fair, I do remember reading that Bungie spent a very long time in development with Halo, so it's possible that they could have developed the two-weapon thing concurrently with Counter Strke. Regardless, a big part of the influence of Halo, Goldeneye, etc. is what they introduced to the masses playing on consoles, not what they pioneered. For example, keyboard+mouse will always be superior to playing on a controller for FPS, so by that reasoning, Halo had no merits for introducing twin stick control.

>which also took 7 hells of a lot more strategy than Halo did
Most definitely, but it was still a step up in strategy for the genre.

To be clear, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm not a fanboy, I've barely played the Halo games in years, and I prefer older 2D games. Just saying, they're good games that had a profound impact on the mainstream market that get some unnecessary flak because of it.

>> No.1144668

>>1144665

>That's being a tad PC-elitist

I've played mostly on consoles my whole life and my first FPS was Goldeneye. Don't try that victim complex shit on me, it's an objective fact that some genres are made for certain control schemes.

But yes, something as fundemental as the controls does indeed change the quality of the game, as everything in the game is designed around it and it's a major part of your playing of the game

>> No.1144670

>>1144668
The FPS genre was originally made to be played with a keyboard and no mouse.

You can successfully argue that every single genre is better on PC. That doesn't change the fact consoles can WORK. And I'm a PC elitist myself.

>> No.1144674

>>1144670

If we're talking DOOM and Wolfenstein sure, but 3D gameplay in FPS, which was a design shift that happened before Goldeneye/Perfect Dark/Halo, was created around the mouse. Mouselook controls.

>You can successfully argue that every single genre is better on PC. That doesn't change the fact consoles can WORK.
>consoles can work

Just not for every genre.

>> No.1144675

>>1144670

not that anon but:

The FPS genre also originally did not require the player to look up. Full freedom of movement necessitated the mouse. Neither NOLF2 or PD have doom-style autoaim

Consoles have gotten a lot better with the dual stick setup, though, I will say. Going back to the c-buttons is an absolute nightmare and the whole game is basically navigating around how clunky they are whether you use them for movement or (god forbid) aiming

>> No.1144678

>>1144675
>Consoles have gotten a lot better with the dual stick setup, though, I will say. Going back to the c-buttons is an absolute nightmare and the whole game is basically navigating around how clunky they are whether you use them for movement or (god forbid) aiming
That's just the default control scheme. The "Turok" style controls, aka 1.2, offer free look with the stick, and movement with the c-buttons.

There's nothing wrong with moving with the c-buttons and looking with the stick. It just requires left-handed dexterity.

>> No.1144681

>>1144678
>It just requires left-handed dexterity.

And there's a hell of a lot less left-handed people than right-handed. Not that I ever complained, being left-handed.

I'm almost positive these games supported the d-pad to move, to, so it's kind of a non issue. I blame people never looking in the options menu. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark have dual analog schemes for crying out loud.

>> No.1144692

>>1144498
Play it in a emulator with KB+M and come back.

Goldeneye and PD are quite different from other shooters, with more emphasis on things like crowd control and resource management.

>> No.1144696

>>1144692
>Play it in a emulator with KB+M and come back.
I did this a few months ago and god damn did I have the time of my life. Can't really imagine playing PD with a controller, though.

>> No.1144720
File: 3 KB, 238x195, 1208610800735.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1144720

>>1144498
>can we talk about games that aren't as fun/haven't aged well?

>Has anybody played the harder difficulty modes? Is auto aim gone? If it is, I can't even imagine trying to aim with the R button.

You know what really fucking rustles my jimmies?

People on /vr/ who say that a game has aged without actually having a full understanding of the game or its internal mechanics.

I'm sorry, but your post leaves me to believe you are most likely a Halo kiddie born around the mid 90s that fails to understand that Goldeneye and Halo are not in the least related aside from the fact you shoot a gun from the first person.

>> No.1144723

>>1144720

>they aren't related except by this thing that defines what they both are

>> No.1144725
File: 59 KB, 815x622, Derp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1144725

>>1144723
>Mario and Sonic are the same game because you can both run and jump

>> No.1144727

>>1144725
>Mario and Sonic are related because they're both platformers

>> No.1144730

>>1144727
They have more similarity with each other than Goldeneye and Halo. The word "platformer" is just a genre label invented by neckbeards to categorize video games. It does not actually infer any relation.

They don't in the least play in a similar way. Totally different gameplay rules.

>> No.1144736

>>1144725

They're both games about getting to the end of a stage by avoiding obstacles and collecting currency. One is faster than the other. They're still similar games even if they aren't carbon copies of each other. Such is the case for Goldeneye and Halo. Games about shooting people.

>> No.1144738

>>1144736
That's like saying that Mario and Quake are related because they both involve jumping to platforms and getting to the end of the level.

>> No.1144741

>>1144738

Mario's a platformer, Quake is a first-person shooter

>> No.1144743

>>1144741
>Mario's a platformer, Quake is a first-person shooter

Yes, again with the meaningless genre labels. Quite the intellect you have. Quake has platforms, so why isn't it a platformer?

What's Mirror's Edge then?

>> No.1144749

>>1144743

>Quake has platforms, so why isn't it a platformer?

Because you're going around shooting things

>What's Mirror's Edge then?

A platformer

>> No.1144751

>>1144743
>Quake has platforms, so why isn't it a platformer?

Do not respond to this shit tier bait. I repeat: Do not respond to this shit tier bait.

>> No.1144762

Mario shoots fireballs at enemies. Why isn't it a shooter?

>> No.1144764

>>1144762

'Cause you can't aim the fireballs

>> No.1144768

>>1144767

Ratchet and Clank belongs to the "shitty game" genre

>> No.1144767

>>1144749
>Because you're going around shooting things

So what about Ratchet and Clank? Platformer or third-person shooter?

And as the anon above said, what's the difference between Ratchet shooting a gun and Mario shooting fireballs?

>> No.1144779

>>1144764
Alright then smart guy. What do you call Contra? Shooter or Platformer?

>> No.1144783

>>1144779

Contra's a shooter

>> No.1144791

>>1144783
But you platform in it too. So it's a Platformer, right?

>> No.1144794

>>1144791

No, because you shoot before you jump. In mario you jump before you shoot

>> No.1144796
File: 5 KB, 167x85, 1380225444248.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1144796

>>1144768

please do't tell me you're shitting on rachet and clank

>> No.1144798 [DELETED] 

>>1144796

More like FAGGET and Poop

>> No.1144832

>>1144720

OP here, finally came back after a few hours, and I was born in Jan '91. First played Goldeneye when I was 8, and Perfect Dark when I was 10.

Didn't get an X-Box til I was 15.

>> No.1144841

>>1144498
I thought the same about SotC until I went into the menu and changed the control scheme. I forget what it's called but just try a few different ones until you get the perfect one that controls perfectly, like you're playing Zelda or something.

It took me forever to get on my horse with the default controls. i kept jumping and missing it... but there is a control scheme that's 10x better in the main menu that has no issues.

>> No.1144849

>>1144841

why the hell are the default controls for so many games shitty?

>> No.1144863

>>1144849
seems like a lot of really fantastic games have horribly shitty controls because the full range of what the developers wanted the player to be able to do was not easily doable with the control scheme available.

it's super badass that in sotc you can ride your horse, stand up on its back, and proceed to fire arrows, even though this never serves any purpose at all during the entire game and is awkward as fuck to do. though maybe the difficulty of the control mirrors the difficulty of the act. i would have loved it if the sotc devs had programmed in even more intricate and difficult controls to do even more impressive stunts.

people shit all over the controls for system shock all the time. but i think they're fine. the fact of the matter is that you can speed down a hallway on your space roller skates, then deactivate them allowing you to turn quickly around a corner, then quickly duck into a left-leaning prone position and shoot a cyber ninja with your space kalashnikov. and that's fucking awesome.

>> No.1144878

Perfect Dark and SotC have kind of unusual controls, but you can get used to almost any control scheme after a half hour or hour of playing. Which is why I don't get people who can't work with RE-style tank controls either.

There's bad controls, then there's unconventional controls. There's probably a bit of overlap between the two categories but I think these two games sit comfortably in the unconventional pile.

>> No.1144889

>>1144878
i agree. i was thinking a bit about that system shock example i made and how it would be handled if you were playing a faster paced "normal" shooter with quick lean buttons bound to Q and E for example. i think a lot of people who criticize SS for its controls would say that it would be "better" that way. i think it would be fine either way but have a lot of respect for how the game took a unique perspective on player stance, with the grid for positioning and all that; i think the relatively complicated controls you use to maneuver your character complement the slower, more cautious mood of the game. it would likely be boring if it played like quake.

also, it's worth noting that there's a prepared pd bundle floating around with mouselook and wasd controls. while this is pretty cool and fun to try out, i think most everybody would find that it completely trivializes and breaks the game, and most people i know who have tried it have preferred to go back to pad controls, even when emulating

>> No.1145025

>This game makes me appreciate Halo more for what it did for console shooters.
Fucking kill them? Piss on all the innovations of a great FPS like Perfect Dark? Teach an entire generation of players to lower their standards?

>playing with auto-aim on
The door's over there casual, fuck off.

>> No.1145510

>>1144751
>I can't refute the argument so I'll just call it bait

Not him but you are making this board worse.

The fact is genre labels are just categorization tools, and there is an insane degree of variance between games supposedly in the same genre.

Consider Metroid Prime vs Doom vs SWAT 4. All first-person-perspective games in which you shoot guns. All play and feel vastly different.

Consider Final Fantasy 6 vs Fallout 3 vs Secret of Mana. All so-called "roleplaying" games in which your characters have levels where they get stronger by killing things. All play and feel vastly different.

You're trying to compare things that are entirely different just because they have one arbitrary feature in common. And the fact that these kinds of debates even happen at all is proof of how arbitrary it is. Countless thread derails about whether J/W RPG should refer to country of origin or gameplay style. Countless thread derails about whether Metroid Prime is an FPS or an action/adventure. Nobody can agree on what the fuck genre labels mean, so it'll be less painful for everyone if you just leave them out of the discussion.

>>1144723
>>1144749

Calling Mirror's Edge a platformer makes these two posts contradictory. If perspective and guns are the only two things that qualify a game as FPS, then Mirror's Edge is one. End of story. But you wouldn't recommend it to someone who liked the gameplay of, say, SWAT 4, unless you were an idiot.

See what I mean about genre labels being useless?

>> No.1145513

>>1145510

>If perspective and guns are the only two things that qualify a game as FPS, then Mirror's Edge is one.

The difference is not only do you only have a gun in Mirror's Edge for like 5% of the game, HAVING a gun is a hinderance because it makes it harder and sometimes impossible to perform the parkour that the game is built around, so it's a platformer. End of story.

>> No.1145558
File: 85 KB, 500x475, 1273955466302.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1145558

You use control style 1.2 and aim with the analog.

Holy shit the fuck is wrong with you