/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.1123875]

This area. And the fact that losing to the final boss places you back past 6-3, 6-2, and 6-1. An infamous endgame section.

Is it bullshit? Does it make the game bad? Is it artificial difficulty? How many of you have legitimately beaten it?

[Anonymous No.1123879]

I don't see the value in forcing players to repeat sections they've already cleared.

[Anonymous No.1123883]

>>1123879
isn't that a slippery slope though? by that logic, should games never place you back in a level when you die?

i'm not trying to argue, i see what you're saying and all. i just want to have a discussion about this sort of thing

[Anonymous No.1123884]

>>1123883
Yeah, that's savestater logic right there.

[Anonymous No.1123889]

>>1123884
nono, don't lump me in with that group. i NEVER use savestates.

anyway, that's not really the point. i want to see how many people think this area is bullshit/badly designed enough to ruin the game

[Anonymous No.1123894]

Ninja Gaiden is infamously tough, but I never feel it has artificial difficulty.

Unfair bits, yes, but what it comes down to is your planning, remembering, and reflexes.

So, yeah, it's really fucking frustrating. So frustrating I've never actually beaten the original. I never could get past this gauntlet run as a kid, and I've found my sidescrolling ability has SEVERELY degraded with age. I'm trying to get back into them, I'm playing Ninja Gaiden II at the moment, abusing save states as little as possible and trying to git gud again, but it's rough. Oh boy is it rough.

Above all, I think Ninja Gaiden is complete true difficulty. Unfair, sometimes unfun difficulty, but never artificial difficulty.

Unless you count the glitch, which is perfectly reasonable.

[Anonymous No.1123907]

ninja gaiden 1 is the easiest of the 3, since theres an ability that lets you one-shot bosses. I never even learned the patterns of most bosses, I just spun them to death

it also has the best music, excepting the godly ng2 intro

I beat 1+2 without too much difficulty, when I was very young

I dont think I had access to the third one, and wasn't especially interested in it

The new ones are just garbage, but I dont like chasecam 3d

[Anonymous No.1123908]

Being sent back is really the lesser of all evils.

[Anonymous No.1123909]

It doesn't ruin the game in any way, but it's bullshit design.

Punishing you for making mistakes in sections that rely on skill is fine. Limiting your ability to practice something that requires pattern recognition by forcing you to wait 15+ minutes between each attempt is not.

[Anonymous No.1123916]

>>1123883

Well, it's not like you failed the level, you failed the boss. Asking a player to repeat a stage for a chance to fight a boss, where the original challenge was, misses the point. It's not consistent.

[Anonymous No.1123923]

>>1123909

Im going to restrain myself from insulting you, but this conclusion is based on 100% ignorance, and coincidentally, it is absolutely false

Games were savored during this time period. There was no internet, no clues, and no precedent for much of what you were experiencing. In many of these game's cases, it was the very first of it's kind. Fundamental concepts like the rule of 3 were discovered for the first time by players. The idea of circumventing the way the characters naturally move and interact; something as simple as walking backwards to make an enemy despawn was all completely new. In this particular game, just jumping straight up one wall was a 'secret.'

So for the player to be given multiple lives and opportunities to start over only 15 minutes before that point was extremely forgiving, almost like cheating.

IN FACT, using the instant kill attack 3 times in a row was actually considered cheating, and it only required you to clear the stage 3 times in a row.

So yeah your new games are easier because they are no longer new and exciting. Things were different when they were new.

Back then, that was neither good nor bad design, because there is nothing to compare it to. It is not a modern game, so modern standards do not apply to it.

[Anonymous No.1123931]

>>1123923
>generic "games these days" rant.txt

15 minute (and this is, just so you know, for an above-average player) setback for dying once considered extremely forgiving and almost like cheating? In what NES action game was that EVER the case?

[Anonymous No.1124068]

>>1123923
Playing the level on a repeat approach gave you time to think about what you could do this time and for a good game could let you get into a zen rhythm to do what you needed to do. I'm specifically thinking of the Hyperstone TMNT game for the genesis.

[Anonymous No.1124097]

That fact it sends you back was actually a programming bug that happened in the game.

They designers thought it was good enough, and left as is.

[Anonymous No.1124142]

Ninja Gaiden is not meant to be played to be beaten, it's meant to be mastered. Losing to the final boss should set you back to the beginning of the game. The game is already being way too generous with its unlimited continues, and without them I doubt a player like yourself would ever have gotten close to seeing the final boss. And now you want the game to just roll over and let you stick your dick in its ass. You are pathetically weak! You don't deserve to enjoy such an amazing piece of gaming. You're no a real gamer. Go back to watching your modern movie games play themselves, pussy!

[Anonymous No.1124143]

theres nothing artificial about death penalties
stop using meaningless words.
There is no such thing as artificial difficulty (difficult either exists or it isn't). There are only well-designed challenges and not-well designed challenges.

The reason the game sends you back so far is because it FORCES YOU TO MASTER THE STAGE TO BEAT THE GAME. You can just luck out and get a good pattern or randomly press the right keys. You have to understand the stage well enough to make it so you can beat conistantly.

As for the boss he's not too bad.
The first form is easily beaten if you take an aggressive approach, you can knock most his health down right as the fight begins (protip down+attack makes you attack faster in the air). If you are extremly good you can actually kill the boss before he can fight back.

The second form is actually the most difficult one. Wait until after he has already attacked, or after you avoid an attack jump up and hit him a few times. I never learned how to do this form well. I just used the spinning blade to 1 shot him.

Third form has the most health but his attacks are slow and have fewer random elements. Take your time and be cautious on this form. Go for air hits if you can and use the down+attack technique.

If you make it to the boss fight with the spinning blade power up you can use it to instantly kill 1 of his forms. This is your reward if you can do the entire segment up to him without dying.

Ninja gaiden is not a very difficult game, there exist much harder games on the arcade and even on the NES. Stop whining and figure out how to get hit less

[Anonymous No.1124162]

>>1123931
its more like a 2-3 minute setback if you are actually good at the game.

from your post I am guessing you never played any NES games that limited your continues.

[Anonymous No.1124167]

>>1123931
fucking idiot
ever heard of contra?

[Anonymous No.1124223]

>>1124167
Contra is BEATEN FROM START TO FINISH in 15 minutes.

Seriously, why the fuck is this board so full of faggots who think Contra is some kind of super-hard bullet hell with zero continues?

[Anonymous No.1124246]

>>1124142
more subtle next time

[Anonymous No.1124265]

>>1124246
Subtlety is for those who lack the balls to be harsh.

[Anonymous No.1124272]

>>1124265
>which is why Ryu Hayabusa runs and shoots fireballs instead of sneaking

[Anonymous No.1124283]

>>1123875
Getting past the section is a matter of skill and practice. If the difficulty stemmed from RNG or hosed controls you'd have a point saying its artificial. But it isn't, the difficulty of the area stems from the limitations of the player's ability. Nontheless, the devs toned down that area in the PC Engine version suggestion they may've considered to have gone overboard with it.

[Anonymous No.1124286]

>>1124223

Contra has always had that reputation.

Not trying to be be "pro as fuck" or anything, but I assume most people never went back to the game as adults because they really aren't all that bad. Hell, most NES games. There are only a handful of NES games that I actually consider difficult.

[Anonymous No.1124329]

It's really annoying, but you do get better each time you have to go through it. Could be much worse.

[Anonymous No.1124424]

Yes, stage 6 is bullshit because it changes the rules. The only reason it ended up like that is because the devs thought it was fucking funny to keep a bug.
The most infuriating thing is actually that you get your life filled the first time you fight the bosses, but not the second time. Jesus.

All the other stages in the game are really fun and well designed though. I can breeze through 1-5.

[Anonymous No.1125321]

>>1124424
every stage in a game changes the rules

the 5th stage of ninja gaiden changes the death penalty rule (not the 6th stage which are you complaining about) if you die to the boss on stage 5 you go back to the start of the level no matter how man lives you have

the 2nd stage in ninja gaiden 2 changes the rules about movment (wind changes how you move)

3rd stage changes the rule about vision (darkness can hide things from you)

the 2nd stage of super changes the rules by making it an overhead shooter instead of a sidescroller

the last boss of dmc changes the rules by turning the game into a rail-shooter

being silenced in a jrpg changes the rules by preventing you from using spells

new enemies being added change the rules, power up change the rules.

if you want a game that never changes its rules go play pong

[Anonymous No.1125337]

every stage in a game changes the rules

the 5th stage of ninja gaiden changes the death penalty rule (not the 6th stage which are you complaining about) if you die to the boss on stage 5 you go back to the start of the level no matter how man lives you have

the 2nd stage in ninja gaiden 2 changes the rules about movment (wind changes how you move)

3rd stage changes the rule about vision (darkness can hide things from you)

the 2nd stage of super c changes the rules by making it an overhead shooter instead of a sidescroller

the last boss of dmc changes the rules by turning the game into a rail-shooter

being silenced in a jrpg changes the rules by preventing you from using spells

new enemies being added change the rules, power up change the rules.

if you want a game that never changes its rules go play pong

[Anonymous No.1125340]

>>1125321
>the 2nd stage of super changes the rules by making it an overhead shooter instead of a sidescroller

Uh, what?
Guessing you mean Super C?
Sorry, just getting confus a bit.
Nevermind me, just got a bit off-track here.
Psage because lost track of discussion.

[Anonymous No.1125350]

Saw answer in edited post, deleted my post.
Also psage again because question already answered.

[Anonymous No.1125394]

>>1124143
>There is no such thing as artificial difficulty (difficult either exists or it isn't).
People who say things like this misunderstand what the word artificial means in this context. In fact you sort of gave a definition of natural vs. artificial difficulty.

[Anonymous No.1125402]

>>1124162
So if I told you that I've played pretty much every NES game there is, and am still playing them, what would that make us?

I don't know why I said "15 min+", I'll blame it on bad memory but you're right.
I mixed it up with continuing from the tower before the thunder-boss.

In the end (cue Linkin Park songs making me seem like some Naruto fanboy) I remembered it wrong, and you're right. Recently replayed Ninja Gaiden and I was way, WAY, off the scales when I said 15+ minutes.

So all in all, I made a fool of myself saying "15 min +" and I apologize for it. Was a long time since I played NG1. Also have never beaten NG3, so that's something you can hold against me if you want :)

Also psage because not on topic-

[Anonymous No.1125423]

>>1125394
the 'chance of victory' in ninja gaiden is 100% determined by player skill, the 6th stage can be done in 2-3 minutes by a skilled player or a bad player can spend days and keep failing at it.

There are extremly few random factors (the angle that enemies throw projeciles at and the glider-ninjas spawn location is random) but no matter what random pattern the game gives you, if you get hit its because you reacted wrong

[Anonymous No.1125471]

>>1123916
I'd say this guy hits the nail on the head

[Anonymous No.1125650]

>>1123875
i really didn't have a problem with this part at all, mostly just relies on being able to slash multiple times in the air, and being able to despawn enemies..

[Anonymous No.1126092]

>>1123916
Assuming you actually mastered the stage than getting back to the boss is going to be incredibly quick. Not only that but you can make the boss fight easier if you bring in the right subweapon with lots of ammo.

Fuck man if you mastered the 6th stage you can just skip the boss fight by bringing in the spinning blade jitsu.

Of course if you were actually good at the game you would figured this shit out yourself

[Anonymous No.1128283]

Omg you are telling me that you get sent back like 3 whole minutes?

And that you infinite continues?

It can take you 20-30 minutes to get to the end stage of certain arcade games, and running out of lives ends your run and forces you to start the entire game over.

Shattered soldier takes an hour to get the final level, you are limited to 3 continues to finish kill the last boss and his seven (yes 7) forms all while having no health bar

[Anonymous No.1128350]

>>1128283

I don't know if this game really counts here. You can practice each and every stage in the game.

[Anonymous No.1128384]

Listen OP, I agree, but you just knew the only answer you'd get by /vr/ would be a verbose "git gud" rant.

It's useless to make threads like these on /vr/, so please post a CRT or a LOL EBAY PRICES thread next time.

[Anonymous No.1128421]

>>1128350
you can practice each stage in ninja gaiden (infinite continues)
You cant practice a stage in contra until AFTER YOUVE BEATEN IT. And as I've said the final stage is much harder than ninja gaiden. The boss has 7 forms, you have no health bar, and you have 3 continues to do the entire fight in before starting over.

Ninja gaiden fucking has a power up that 1 shots the boss. Just grab it, take it to the boss room without losing it and get your free win.

[Anonymous No.1128434]

>>1123875
>Is it artificial difficulty?
Yes. All difficulty in single-player video games is artificial by definition.

[Anonymous No.1128440]

>>1124265
>I just called someone a pussy faggot on the internet
>alpha as fuck

[Anonymous No.1128484]

I used NES Advantage slow motion to beat it back in 87. Is that still legitimate?

[Anonymous No.1129020]

>>1128484

[Anonymous No.1129286]

>>1123907
This is terrible logic on why 1 is the easiest. All the bosses were really easy except the obvious, which couldn't die from the ability.

3 was hands down the easiest, everything came so easily, not even needed to memorize everything. Sure the enemies hurt because of the bug (for the US version), but it hardly matters when they don't hit you.

[Anonymous No.1129513]

>>1129286
I never played the ninja gaiden game much.
I played them all in chronological order one after another a few months ago and I think they were all about equal difficulty

Ninja gaiden 1 has by far the most difficult last section of the game.

Ninja gaiden 2 is a lot more complex with each stage having new types of hazards. The bosses are also harder. It's probably the hardest of them all but not by much

Ninja gaiden 3 wasn't that tricky at all except for a handful of parts (like that area with the rain, and the collapsing bridge on the final level) but you had limited continues

[Anonymous No.1129525]

LOL Ninja Gaiden used to make me rage like no other. One time I got so mad that I pulled the game out of my NES, and stomped on it until it was in a bunch of pieces.

...then I felt remorse and wanted to beat the game. So I bought another copy and ended up beating it.

[Anonymous No.1129909]

>>1129525
Kids like these were always a mystery to me. I always used to get mad at hell as games, but I'd never destroy anything.

[Anonymous No.1129923]

>>1129525
If Ninja Gaiden NES makes you rage, then don't ever play Ninja Gaiden II for Xbox 360. That is the most infuriating game that has ever been made.