/vr/ - Retro Games

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Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 00:22:25 2013 No.1108284 [DELETED]

What did you guys thought about the Focus change of Zelda that started since OoT?

We know that Ocarina changed a lot of things compared to the 2D entries, while retaining a lot of things. One of the things I disliked the most was the new overworld design layout.

You see, in previous Zeldas, a big focus was exploration. In Zelda 1 and 2, you were on your own finding the dungeons. You had to explore the overworld without any kind of clues, maybe even mapping it. In aLttP, they gave you the location of the dungeons, but reaching them was the challenge, you still had to explore to get to them (like, for example, Hera's Tower and Misery Mire). The GBC games only told you a general direction of the dungeons and you had to explore to get to them again.

Then Ocarina happened, and the overworld changed to being a connected overworld to being a HUB-based one. This was made on purpose both to compensate the 64 capabilities, and because they wanted to have a big field where you could ride a horse to add the sense of adventure.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 00:22:54 2013 No.1108286

>>1108284

But the HUB world is just... not right. You have your main HUB and the branching areas, and you already know each area will have a dungeon at the end of it. There's no need to explore at all. The focus changed from "exploring the land by yourself" to "complete each area in a linear basis to get to the dungeon at the end, then proceed to the next area and repeat". Worse at all, due to the success of Ocarina, the next 3D Zeldas sans one all had the same HUB format limitting the overworld exploration, the aspect I liked the most of the 2D Zeldas. The exception being, of course, WW, which I thought was finally a return to the true roots of the series until TP went back and copied Ocarina once again. I sincerely hope the next 3D game return to the 2D basics by giving us a large world to explore, not just to complete.

So what do you think should be the focus in a Zelda game? The exploration? The dungeons? Or (please don't ever think like this) the storyline? Pick your choice /vr/os.

NESfag Mon Sep 30 04:56:29 2013 No.1108603

I see what you're getting at, but from the perspective of someone playing this in the mid 90's and being of their first 3D games on console, there is plenty to explore.
The sole fact that everything was in 3D gave exploration of it all another meaning. It still felt like a pretty big adventure.

It's just a different type of exploration but there is definitly a lot to find out. Plenty of secret places, plenty of towns but people to talk to; plenty of rewards for exploring to find too.

It is however true that in terms of scale it was more limited as a lot of things opened up little by little, but that's also something that was true with ALTTP or Link's Awakening compared to the first Zelda.
To be honest I think OoT is very similar to ALTTP in those regards except it's in 3D.
>they gave you the location of the dungeons, but reaching them was the challenge, you still had to explore to get to them
It's very similar for OoT.

The fact that monsters and enemies only appear at night on the world map doesn't quite help the feeling of exploration though; but outside of the world maps there are plenty of exploration area before dungeons with enemies.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 05:14:29 2013 No.1108637

>>1108284
As you say this was mostly done for technical reasons. They needed each area to be its own encapsulated environment for memory reasons.

OoT was considered to have amazing draw distance back in the day, but how much more demanding would it be on the system to have a truly connected overworld?

It's a shame they went back to it in TP, but I think that was them just being lazy. Hyrule Field in TP is even more linear and HUB-like than the expansive area in OoT.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 05:29:30 2013 No.1108643

>>1108637
>Hyrule Field in TP is even more linear and HUB-like than the expansive area in OoT.
This annoyed me so fucking much.
By 2006 3D Zelda shouldn't have need a fucking hub. It worked for the N64 due to the hardware limitations, but for a late Gamecube game it's pointless and archaic.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 05:47:30 2013 No.1108647

I've heard of talk about switching it up. That even nintendo feel like it's too stale. So maybe they will focus on exploration over connect the dots type layout with no real guessing where to go next.

I remember playing ALttP when I was 8. Somehow I got lost but in doing so I found the bridge where you get one of the bottles. While I was never lost in OoT I did a lot of wondering. Some places I reached well before I was meant to. TP however I never really felt like exploring. It was the first Zelda that made me feel that way. Didn't help that even after the darkness went away the area still looked boring and uninterested.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 06:03:59 2013 No.1108651

>>1108284
OoT just exaggerate to a fault what LttP chose to mix in.

The biggest problem with it is that it is a 'focus' change. The dungeons and such are typically decent enough. But they're choosing to poorly integrate them into the world and not emphasizing the reason you're in the dungeons and scale of the world. Five 'rooms' worth of overworld makes me feel like even the concepts of dungeons is retarded when the dungeons take up significantly more time than the overworld it feels detatched. TP for example made it even worse by having most people not even give a shit about world changes.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 06:08:30 2013 No.1108656

>>1108637
>OoT was considered to have amazing draw distance back in the day, but how much more demanding would it be on the system to have a truly connected overworld?

Depending on how you managed it, not much. It was a quick and dirty way of doing it and even the wii could pull greater draw distances and still used the techniques of sectioning.

Starseige Tribes for the PC was released the same time OoT was, very same month. It's draw distances were far larger. Though the PC does have more ram and so fourth, it ran pretty light on requirements. You didn't need a video card or anything, it could do it all software. Quake and Duke3D years before also had typically farther draw distances but didn't typically implement them except in custom maps.

Though since the series has gone downhill huge, I don't really care what it does now. I'd much rather a competent developer create unrelated but similar to the older games on a different larger scale.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 06:30:38 2013 No.1108676 >>1108643 Not to mention in MM the draw distance is infinite. Not I understand why MM was hub-like and I'm not arguing with that. But what I am saying is that draw distance could not have been a factor in a hub-like world for TP.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 06:35:09 2013 No.1108681 > Zelda Scrolls. A full expansive open world would probably suck in a zelda game, the emphasis is on the dungeons and items I think. Though any open world game done right would be refreshing, I love open world games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 06:46:07 2013 No.1108687 >>1108681 Well they did technically do this in Wind Waker

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 07:03:08 2013 No.1108694

It's not just Zelda it's Ninendo as a whole.

After GameCube they literally lost their fangs. In the GC era they were taking all of their franchises and doing them in creative new ways.

I remember being hype as shit because of it. "Oh wow a swashbuckling Zelda adventure on the high seas! Oh wow Metroid as a FPS that's a perfect mix! Oh wow a Mario game with a new mechanic!" etc.

Now granted some of them were duds but at least they felt fresh and new.

Nowdays Nintendo is just re-making the same 4 games from SNES era with maybe a gimmick or two, using the level desgin from 20 years ago. They have effectively gone BACKWARDS, but that continues to sell because of the manchildren like MovieBob who praise them to heavens beacause they are catering to their nostalgia, and normal children who don't know better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 07:07:38 2013 No.1108696 >>1108694 Well some of it is ok. Like with Chrono Trigger. 80 dollars for the SNES version? Fuck that. The DS version cost me 24 bucks and it's portable.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 07:29:07 2013 No.1108710

>>1108696

Oh no I find DS to be pretty damn amazing because it allows for playing old games not only as I'm riding a bus or something but also relatively cheap. I love that as well as most of the new games coming out on it.

However I'm talking about their main consoles and new games that they put out. They are just down right terrible for the most part.

It's sad when I'd rather play Rayman Origins (and Legends even though it's a step back from origins) than a new Mario game considering how Mario is supposed to be the king of platformers.

Hell I'm getting a WiiU and I'm more excited about fucking SONIC LOST WORLD than I am for a new Zelda game because of how utter shit I found Skyward sword to be. I think I'm rather going to buy Wind waker again than a new Zelda game at least that was I'm sure I'll have fun.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 08:03:38 2013 No.1108730

>>1108710
Yeah U know what you mean. They made New Super mario Bros for the wii and then it's like that was kind of fun but generally bland. Then oh wait, what? A sequel?

Fuck this shit, I'm gonna play some Super Mario World..

And yeah I am absolutely stoked about the new Sonic game, and equally for the new Zelda, because I personally liked Skyward Sword but it had its flaws and I think Nintendo realizes this and will make changes accordingly.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 12:24:40 2013 No.1108992

>>1108681
>>1108687

And in Zelda 1. And 2.

What I don't understand is why they receeded back with TP. MM's design its understable since it was on the same console. Then WW happened and had this amazing open world (though the main quest was still linear) and I was hoping for something similar not at sea.

When TP was announced they used Ocarina, not the older Zeldas, as a paradigm. Even fucking Fujibayashi, the director of some of the finest 2D entries in the series, did the same with SS.

Is that much to have an overworld design akin to the GB games? The overworld slowly opens up as you get new items a la Metroid, yet it's all connected and each screen has things to do, secrets to find, etc. This is my dream Zelda game.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 12:28:42 2013 No.1108997

I actually think OoT is the best designed world.

It's amazing how it feels so cohesive.

Link to the Past has the worst world, its a chore. Zelda stopped being about exploration after Zelda 2; LttP is just an awkward compromise between past Zeldas and going in a new direction with a focus on puzzles.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 12:49:12 2013 No.1109019

The change didn't start with OoT. OoT was the culmination of everything done in Zelda previously all wrapped up into one game and put into a 3D world. It's Miyamoto's magnum opus, and the epitome of classic Zelda gameplay.

Majora was definitely the turning point, and the series has never been as good as it was with Ocarina and prior.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 12:59:40 2013 No.1109037 >>1108694 I wish Nintendo was still releasing games like their SNES days. To have another LttP, Super Metroid or SMW would be great. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking Nintendo peaked with the SNES and it's all been downhill sense.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 13:13:18 2013 No.1109063 >>1108687 And Wind Waker is one of the best Zelda games.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 13:18:48 2013 No.1109079

>>1108730
New Super Mario Bros for the Wii was actually a sequal to New Super Mario Bros for DS which was even blander, but more interesting at the time because it was a return to 2D mario using mechanics from the 3D games. When NSMBWii was announced it was like "Oh they're doing this shit again, maybe they'll get it right this time..." and well... it was better but still didn't feel inspired. I haven't even touched the games after it.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 13:22:17 2013 No.1109086

>>1109019

Of course the overworld design changed with Ocarina, didn't you read my opening post?

>>1108997

Care to elaborate why do you think ALttP is the worst one? Zelda hasn't stopped being about exploration, so far, all the 2D entries up to Spirit Tracks focus on exploration somewhat, with some entries being milder than others.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 13:24:48 2013 No.1109091 >>1109086 Not to mention the new Zelda game on 3DS sounds like it's going to have focus on exploration witht he possibility of non-linear dungeon order as well.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 13:31:47 2013 No.1109105

>>1109086

I think Link to the Past has a very tedious overworld to navigate. It's not bad after you know exactly where to go, but for the first time, I found it a pain.

You're not really exploring; the game always tells you where to go. But yet there's still a lot of annoying obstacles and bizarre, illogical layouts. Navigating this overworld isn't fun, it's a job. At least in Zelda 1 there was a genuine sense of discovery.

Also, it doesn't help that, IMO, Link to the Past has an ugly overworld, with a gross color palette

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 13:31:47 2013 No.1109106

>>1109091

Funny you mentioned ALBW. It's the first Zelda I have zero interest or hype at all. Given that my favorite part about Zelda is exploring a new overworld with each game, and ALBW uses , so far, the exact same overworld than ALttP, I'm not getting it. New "challenging" dungeons don't interest me in the sligthest.

Note that I haven't been keeping with the game's info, so if they have confirmed a completely revamped overworld instead of the same one, then I'll be interested.

>>	Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 13:33:47 2013 No.1109109 >>1109105 So I take you dislike the GB games, then? I suppose you can't satisfy everyone in a franchise like Zelda.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 13:43:21 2013 No.1109125

>>1109106
I think the dark world is supposed to use a new over world and the main overworld isn't totally 1:1 with Link to the Past as far as I know. I'm not entirely hyped for it or anything either though I just hope they carry over these things to a future game.

>>	Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 13:45:19 2013 No.1109128 >>1109125 Oh, I see. Well, the moment I notice some changes then I'll buy it since I'm craving some 2D Zelda. In the meantime, I'm sticking to my Alundra.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 14:23:21 2013 No.1109187

I read most of this thread.. and ya know I think if the creators of Zelda stayed with the whole "exploration out on your own" thing you would all be complaining about how each game was cut and pasted from the last and maybe added a few new items in complaining how dull and repetitive things are.

And those of you who complain about linear stuff, alot of zelda games do this. you cant do some dungeons without the item from the previous dungeons. Sure if you were crafty enough you can do the 4th Dungeon second after getting the hammer in a link to the past. But is that option really worth complaining about how things change?

And by the way didnt you get a map with Zelda1 that told you where to go in terms of dungeons?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 14:48:42 2013 No.1109229 >>1109128 The worst case scenario I could see is Nintendo pulling another NSMB except this time it's uninspired soulless 2.5D Zelda games.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 15:01:42 2013 No.1109254

>>1109187
>I think if the creators of Zelda stayed with the whole "exploration out on your own" thing you would all be complaining about how each game was cut and pasted from the last and maybe added a few new items in complaining how dull and repetitive things are.

This thing it's happening with the 3D games right now, only that without the exploration part. Every new game adds a gimmick that results in the game being "fresh", and follows a formula. But, every single game franchise in existence follows a formula and no one complains about it.

Imagine a LA-like overworld in the setting and sword gameplay of SS. Or with the time re-winding mechanics of MM. Or the dark, gritty world of TP. Would those games be "dull"? Not by a chance.

>>1109187
>And by the way didnt you get a map with Zelda1 that told you where to go in terms of dungeons?

It was a partial map that only gave to you the locations of the first three dungeons, which are already easy to find on their own. You had to find the layout of the entire land yourself.

>>1109229

The moment they announce New Legend of Zelda for 3DS/WiiU I'll finally stop giving a damn over the franchise.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:01:42 2013 No.1109256

I find the complaints about the wide overworld rather weird, one of Skyward Sword's most frequent criticism was the lack of one, where you went from a forest scenery to a volcano scenery in an instant.
Go out to the countryside in reality, there are many plain parts. You shouldn't hop from one exciting point to the next one. It's a much more believable world that way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:03:40 2013 No.1109259 >>1108284 I felt like the Dungeons in Majora's Mask were sufficient obfuscated and difficult to find, or at least access.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 15:08:13 2013 No.1109269

>>1109256

Skyward complaints come from two groups: those who grew up playing Ocarina and find the lack of a proper central HUB terrible, where instead the Sky serves more like a "choose your level" screeen given the even lower quantity of content on it compared to the already barren overworlds of the previous 3D entries.

And the fans who like the 2D games, like myself, usually loathe the game because, again, the lack of a proper overworld makes the 3 areas feel more like "levels" or "stages" instead of a single, breathing alive world. I liked the amount of content in each of those three areas but the fact they weren't connected and were completely and horribly linear, with zero optional content was the thing I despised the most.

>>1109259

While I do like the trials you must do in each area in the HUB based games I feel like the concept of finding the dungeon by your own is lost in those games, as there are exactly four areas in MM, and you already know you are going to find a dungeon at the end of each area.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:20:10 2013 No.1109296

>>1109254
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_A_Link_Between_Worlds

>>1109269

Getting to the dungeons in MM was part of the fun, each had their own pre-quests, puzzles and areas to explore both before and after you finished the dungeon. Personally I dont understand the appeal of the search for the dungeons themselves, maybe it was like that in the first two games was only like that due to technical limitations

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:24:13 2013 No.1109314

>>1108284
>muh exploration
i dont get how people value that element so much. that's only a thing in the first few playthroughs. if you care that much about exploring once you get to know the game you will stop enjoying it.
to me a great game can be replayed over and over, and not because you get something different each time but because you enjoy what's there.

in oot you always arrive to lon lon ranch and get to hear malon sing, and it's great everytime.
in loz you wander around aimlessly for the first playthrough and once you know all the secrets, unless you erase your memory, there's no need for more exploration.

a detective book is only good the first time. brother's karamazov can be read and enjoyed countless times.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:27:43 2013 No.1109325 >>1109314 >muh into the trash your argument goes

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:28:13 2013 No.1109328 >>1109314 >a detective book is only good the first time. brother's karamazov can be read and enjoyed countless times. you imply that one way is better than the other

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:28:42 2013 No.1109327 >>1109314 Some people like detective books.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:29:13 2013 No.1109330 >>1109325 So you ignore alot of valid points and counterarguments because of a single word.. thats... thats class right there.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:30:45 2013 No.1109335 >>1109330 no, actually he was the one trying to dismiss an argument completely on premise

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:32:12 2013 No.1109338 File: 87 KB, 1280x720, 1380418182633.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1109335 He actually did a pretty good job of elaborating.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 15:32:44 2013 No.1109340

>>1109296

Yes, I know about the fun. But the initial concept of Zelda was getting lost in a fantasy world. Hyrule was, in Miyamoto's words, "your personal virtual garden".

If you have played ALL the 2D games, not just the first two, you'll see that the concept is prevalent there, too.

Hell, I recently finished Spirit Tracks for the first time and it had so much to explore for being a literal Railroaded game. It had even more fucking exploration than SS, that's the thing it amazed me the most.

>>1109314
>>1109314
>in oot you always arrive to lon lon ranch and get to hear malon sing, and it's great everytime.

I don't like to replay Ocarina precisely for that, every single time is the exact same thing. I have to mix each playtrough with a speed run, or a 3-heart challenge to keep things fresh. And when I do that, I usually just mash A and skip directly to the action.

The same could be said about the 2D games, though. It's just that they have more content in their overworld that you can't possibly memorize it all. I don't remember every burnable bush in LoZ, I don't remember where every Seashell is in LA and I definitely can't memorize all the Kinstone Fusions in MC.

MM is one of the two 3D Zeldas I like because despite the HUB overworld it has a fuckton of things to collect and and explore.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:34:42 2013 No.1109347 >>1109338 He claims that a game needs replay value to be good and games focusing on exploration can not have that since the elements you can experience are finite. That's a shallow argument

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:36:12 2013 No.1109356 >>1109347 I agree, but that's not the same thing as dismissing an argument on premise.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:43:13 2013 No.1109370 >>1109314 >brother's karamazov >comparing oot to brother's karamazov and i thought majora mask's fags were the worst adventure of link is by far the best zelda

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 15:44:12 2013 No.1109373

>>1109340
My first zelda game was LttP, next was Link's awakening, then OoT, then seasons/ages.

Back then getting stuck or lost was frustrating. While I can barely understand what or how you feel about exploration.. but to me exploring those games was about searching every nook and cranny for treasure, using whatever gimmick that was present in each game to find heart containers, bugs, whathaveyou.

Finding the dungeon itself with nothing to go on going from square to square using whatever you have does not sound fun at all to find the dungeon.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Mon Sep 30 15:56:02 2013 No.1109404

>>1109373

That's... that's actually one of the bits I've tried to explain, too.

See, I absolutely love all that stuff. The "search for your own dungeon" part also haves a great plus, making the overworld full of optional content.

I'll share a story with you. Back when I was doing my first LttP run when I was seven. Remember the first time you wandered into the Dark World? As a Bunny, you tried to overcome the "puzzle" to get to Hera's Tower. I couldn't figure out myself, so I explred that side of the Dark Mountain, trying every cave, etc. In one of those caves, you found those smirking mole things and a hall full of spikes. Impossible to travel across the first time you went to it.

Then, later on , you entered the Palace of Darkness, got the hammer, and learned that you could squish those mole things. The spike hallways had been on my mind the entire time, so, naturally, I rushed back to the Dark Mountain, entered the passage armed with three potions to overcome the spikes, and what did you got for all the trouble? A bitching invincibility rod. Optional? Yes. Hidden? Yes. Did I ever use it? No, but I had it and it was fucking cool.

Now, fast forward to 2011. When I was playing SS, I noticed the game had absolutely zero situations like that. You are obligated to "explore" every part of an area. When I arrived at the mountains and got to the part where the heat impeeded your progress, I hoped that area would be an optional one. But noooo, the storyline obligated you to go there later on the game!

As you noticed in OoX, the fact that the game was designed for searching your own dungeons in a hub-less world also meant the game was designed with a lot of optional things to do. That's my main gripe with the 3D Zelda exploration part. The "search the dungeons" it's only the catalyst.

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:08:05 2013 No.1109425

>>1109325
k

>>1109327
good for them

>>1109328
to me, yes

>>1109340
gotcha. different strokes for different folks

>>1109347
i just meant to say that i get no particular enjoyment out of exploration since it's a finite quality as it relies too much on the knowledge or lack thereoff the player has of the game, instead of the constant elements that games offer which can always be appreciated.

>>1109370
didnt meant to sound pretentious. im not a native speaker so its hard to make a point without going for analogies

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:11:01 2013 No.1109436

>>1109425
>i just meant to say that i get no particular enjoyment out of exploration since it's a finite quality as it relies too much on the knowledge or lack thereoff the player has of the game, instead of the constant elements that games offer which can always be appreciated.

what games do you play then? guessing random numbers?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:22:02 2013 No.1109458 >>1109436 ocarina of time and majora's mask are too of my favorites. i dont need for the playthroughs to be different each time. in fact i prefer when things remain consistent. linearity shouldnt always be perceived as something bad

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:23:02 2013 No.1109459

I think the "next" Zelda game should have Link as a young captain, leading various companions into overland battles and dungeons across an expansive world. You could even have it so that the companions could be controlled by other players, though I would hate to see a Resident Evil 5 scenario with that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:35:30 2013 No.1109476 I think the next Zelda game should start off where Link and Zelda are the king and queen in that era already, baby on the way and all 3 were kidnapped. And it is up to your Mii to save the motherfucking world. Dont laugh.. it may happen.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:39:29 2013 No.1109484 >>1109476 I'm okay with this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:40:32 2013 No.1109489 >>1109476 released only as a mobile phone game

Anonymous Mon Sep 30 16:59:00 2013 No.1109521

Sometimes a game doesn't need that much replay. Zelda 1 had the second world and outside that Zelda never had that much in ways of replay outside you challenging yourself (3 heart run, ect.). I hear this argument a lot in games now a days. That they need replay value. And I never really understood that reasoning. Sometimes I just like a nice one shot game. Phantasy Star 1 had those first person dungeons which I love. Had to draw out the maps on graph paper and had a blast. I was fine with there being a central HUB in OoT but my problem is that there are so many roadblocks that if felt like it was taking away my exploring. In ALttP there was a few things that stopped you without a special item but most of the world was open to you. The last one that really had that was Wind Waker which was one of the best Zelda I played (still never beat it because of Tingle) since I felt complete joy sailing around the many islands and seeing what each one had.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 30 17:22:01 2013 No.1109580 >>1109489 Nintendo is not squeenix

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 1 15:30:44 2013 No.1111334 >>1108284 >What did you guys thought about the Focus change of Zelda that started since OoT? i prefer it

>>	FremenDar !!33FSn+1dXpC Tue Oct 1 23:04:44 2013 No.1112078 So as someone who never played the N64 Zelda games, I was playing Command & Conquer and other games on computer, which are the best graphical mods I could use? OoT and MM are pushing it for me to be considered Retro.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 2 00:16:35 2013 No.1112280 >>1112078 don't use graphical mods

Anonymous Wed Oct 2 09:21:17 2013 No.1113073

>>1108286

Not OP but that was what made The Legend Of Zelda so great. Yeah if you took the time to read the booklet or the box or something it told you about dungeons and stuff, but I remember playing it for the first time, being like 7 or 8 years old, I grabbed the only gold cartridge out of my brothers box of dull grey cartridges. I popped it in and when I first started playing I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, and nothing was telling me anything. I went into the cave only because it was right there on the first screen. I think I tried beating level 3 before 1 and 2 because I found it first but I kept losing. Found some coins by accidentally burning a bush and then tried burning every damn bush in the game. I didn't even get the bow until later in the game because when I finally found level one I got the triforce without even beating the whole level.

I'm just rambling now but why is it so hard to give us what made the games great to begin with. Yes they try to make it look like you can roam around but there is always some annoying sidekick telling you to go a certain way. And you will inevitably get to a point where you can't go anywhere else or get to any other place you have seen until you go to the specific dungeon.

Why can't they just make a large area, make some dungeons, make some towns, hide some shit, and just fuckin plop us down and let us figure something out.

>>	Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Wed Oct 2 11:47:58 2013 No.1113246 >>1113073 They're trying to do that with ALBW. It was announced yesterday that the game will be non-linear, but it's still the same fucking overworld of ALttP.

God's Good & Faithful Servant(...) Fri Oct 4 02:56:04 2013 No.1116605

I think you're making a critical mistake in your evaluation of OoT. Hyrule Field isn't just a cipher for a hub for starters. It's a fulcrum that links and balances the tempo of hub and overworld that is the game in its interconnectedness. Epona's utility speaks much on this as she's most useful if you get her early so you can sequence-break.
>have a dungeon at the end of it. There's no need to explore at all. The focus changed from "exploring the land by yourself" to "complete each area in a linear basis to get to the dungeon at the end, then proceed to the next area and repeat".
This is all wrong though. OoT's dungeons are nonlinear, including mini-dungeons and Gerudo Training Grounds (which is exceedingly so. To the point where that IS its point even; and a myriad of potential routes could be cited). The dungeons that aren't are the child ones and Dodongo's Cavern/Jabu-Jabu are evidently intended to be interchangeable (someone threw in the boulders at Zora's River at the very last minute).
>Worse at all, due to the success of Ocarina, the next 3D Zeldas sans one all had the same HUB format limitting the overworld exploration, the aspect I liked the most of the 2D Zeldas
OoT in many ways continued this while effectively amending that oft incoherency of overworld design in 2D games by reconvening the cornerstones of the map under one roof.
>So what do you think should be the focus in a Zelda game?
A return to the Zelda1/ALttP/OoT brand of nonlinearity-based challenge.

I suggest reading/viewing the lower portion of this page
http://www.pinterest.com/allytogood/the-legend-of-zelda/

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 06:23:19 2013 No.1116778

>>1116605
>http://www.pinterest.com/allytogood/the-legend-of-zelda/

I find it incredibly interesting that the item dependency graph is actually completely wrong, as it omits a number of the most interesting alternate sequences.

- Lake Hylia is accessible as soon as you obtain the Emerald, you can use the ladder to the side.
-The Lens is completely 100% optional. You can fully break the well out of all game play sequences if you know what you're doing.
-Epona alone can be used to obtain the Gerudo card without any other adult items whatsoever.
-However, I'm pretty sure you do need Din's Fire for the Shadow Temple

Having said that, I'm disappointed that OoT has already been fully remade, as there are so many elements of it that could have easily been that much better with a little tweaking. The rocks blocking Zoras River is one example that peeves me, however, you could also do things like - have child Link be able to enter Gerudo Valley.

God's Good & Faithful Servant(...) Fri Oct 4 11:18:55 2013 No.1117037

>>1116778
I think it's not going by locational accessibility but just items, in which case it is right. You need the bomb bag to enter Zora's Domain for the Silver Scale, then letter. However you CAN bypass this with the Golden Scale which is not cited.
Yeah, the Lens of Truth and Song of Storms are optional.
You're right about Epona and the Membership card. Should have a dotted line to it. As well as the Iron Boots to the Ice Arrows.
And it has that for the Hover Boots. Which yeah, you need for them.
And yeah, making it easier to jump the fence or crossover with the chicken to get on the Gerudo grounds as a kid would have been cool since they're already programmed to toss you into the river if you're caught. But not much else you can do (unless you have the Gerudo Mask).

However my gripe is the ignorance they have of Pierre's relevance to the metagame as you can see in that giant image and mentioned in interviews way back. So oblivious they are, that in OoT3D you can't get the Fire Arrows early though they programmed him in RIGHT THERE.

http://www.glitterberri.com/ocarina-of-time/1101-interviews/minigames/

>>	Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Fri Oct 4 13:03:30 2013 No.1117250 >>1116605 I still think the "incoherent" overworld is way better since that allows more shit to be hidden, encouraging exploration. But if you want a coherent, secret-filled Hubless overworld, WW is a damn fine example of that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 4 13:43:00 2013 No.1117309 >>1109325 stop. do i need to send you to your room without dinner again?

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 13:58:30 2013 No.1117335

>>1108284
The only reason 3D Zeldas are seen are different from the 2D ones is that the 2D ones from 1994 onward were designed for handheld games.

Where Link to the past had a very spread out empty overworld like Ocarina of time, Links awakening, and the other handled games compressed the levels as much as possible both to save on memory and so players can get the most out of short bursts of gameplay since they were playing it on gameboy.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:29:56 2013 No.1117725
File: 31 KB, 1672x515, linear vs nonlinear.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1109314
(1/3)
I love exploration, but a lot of people misuse the term IMO. Exploration, to me, isn't about finding random treasure chests filled with rupees or blowing up a random section of wall to find a missile tank placed there for no apparent reason. Exploration, for me, is about the scenery and atmosphere. It's about that feeling you get from entering the Shadow Temple for the first time and soaking in the sights and sounds and creepy music, wondering what horrors await you behind the next door as you hear whispers in your mind about the Hyrule's bloody past. It's about stepping outside the Temple of Time to be greeted by a ring of eldritch energy surrounding Death Mountain and a wasteland of undead. Exploration has no value to me if it doesn't include these moments, if it's just about collecting phat lewts.

This is why I have the (unpopular on /vr/) opinion of ranking the first Metroid relatively low on the list. Because for all the praise it gets for "exploration", what do you actually find when you explore a new room? The same black background, the same boring rock texture, the same enemies, and maybe a missile tank that has no logical in-universe reason to be there. Some rooms are literally cut-and-pasted. There's nothing interesting to look at or soak in, it's just nonlinearity purely for the sake of nonlinearity; the game doesn't actually *do* anything with that nonlinearity.

This is where Ocarina of Time succeeds where earlier Zeldas fail. The spike cave with the invincibility rod that >>1109404
mentioned: what is it? No seriously, what IS it? Why is any of that there? Who just sticks a priceless magical artifact at the end of a long tunnel of spikes blocked by blob things in the side of a random cliff at the top of a mountain? The dungeons in the original LoZ: what are they? Why were they built? What purpose do they serve other for a video game character to come in and kill all the enemies and loot the treasure so he can get a plot mcguffin?

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:32:26 2013 No.1117729
File: 99 KB, 800x500, 800px-Shadow1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1117725
(2/3)
There's no *theme* to anything in the earlier Zeldas. The dungeons are just kinda there. All the rooms look the same. They all have a very sterile, mechanical layout and seem to only exist for the purpose of being a dungeon in a videogame. There's no scenery, no atmosphere, just murdering things and stealing their loot because it's a videogame.

In Ocarina of Time, everything is something. Every area has its own theme and atmosphere, and every dungeon is filled with clues as to what it might be in-universe, leading to plenty of long-winded fan theories such as http://zeldaoottheories.tumblr.com/post/31552542874/the-forest-temple.. You can call it "headcanon" or "fanwank" if you want, but the point is people are talking about it. You are made to wonder and made to feel a certain way. To me this is part of a charm of the game and others like it; this is how it continues to hold your attention even on subsequent playthroughs. Not with rupees and videogame powerups, but with the world itself.

Earlier Zeldas didn't have any of this. There is nothing memorable about any of the palaces in AoL (other than the balls-crushing difficulty) or the original LoZ. Nobody is talking about them or writing long-winded fan theories. They're just obstacles on the road to winning the game, nothing more. They have no wonder or mystery and they don't make you feel or think beyond "how do I beat it".

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:33:55 2013 No.1117731
File: 446 KB, 1064x800, metroid-prime-phendrana-drifts.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1117729
(3/3)
That, to me, is what "exploration" is really about. Collecting powerups and finding secrets is something you can do in any video game. That's not exploration. Exploration is the ominous entryway before and music within Ridley's lair in Super Metroid. Exploration is when you get to Outland in WoW for the first time and your first instinct is not "I want to check every corner for loot" but rather "I want to check every corner because this is a strange new land and I want to take in all the sights". Exploration is when you catch the normally brave and stoic swordmaster on the Night of the Final Day cowering in the back room pleading to the gods for his life. Exploration is uncovering constant references to the "Great Poison" that has been destroying Tallon IV's ecosystem and driven off one of the most powerful races in the galaxy, then reaching the Phazon Mines and finally getting to see it with your own eyes--only to discover shortly afterwards that your nemeses have harnessed it for their own purposes.

All of that is exploration. Exploration is not finding random chests filled with random items in random caves that exist for no reason other than for a video game character to find them.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:40:58 2013 No.1117746

>>1117729
>There's no *theme* to anything in the earlier Zeldas. The dungeons are just kinda there. All the rooms look the same. They all have a very sterile, mechanical layout and seem to only exist for the purpose of being a dungeon in a videogame. There's no scenery, no atmosphere, just murdering things and stealing their loot because it's a videogame.

LA wants to fight you

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:51:58 2013 No.1117767 >>1117725 >>1117729 >>1117731 Just wanted to say, I read all of this and I agree with it so much. Really well written and I just can't agree enough about what you are saying. I'm glad some people feel this way on here.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 4 18:56:28 2013 No.1117775 >>1117729 I agree with this guy. This is probably the main reason the original LoZ got outdone by LA or Alttp. I guess hardware limitations are to blame (with their current experience, at least).

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 19:01:28 2013 No.1117780
File: 40 KB, 363x360, 1380024732301.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1117725
>>1117729
>>1117731

I love everything you're saying here, but I do not agree on one thing, and that is how you're using the word 'exploration'. And it's not exactly that you're using it 'wrong' it's just sort of missing the point.

I think what you're saying is, exploration for the sole sake of loot without any mysticism or sense of wonder about the world is pointless (and you say it isn't really exploration, which I'll agree with, as it's more, searching for items, not exploring for explorings' sake)

What you're really talking about is great world building, world building with depth.

World building never meant as much in video games back in the NES days, because it was 'just a game'. In the last 15 years it's certainly meant more as games got longer and became more complex stories. The story and by proxy the world, meant so much more because developers wanted you to play and enjoy their 6+ hour game, and come away having finished it feeling like you experienced something worth the time you played the game, and the games that are good at this don't feel long, even if you've put 50 hours into it.

Exploration is a product of good world building.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 19:10:00 2013 No.1117795

>>1117729
>>1117780

I actually think the original Legend of Zelda has the greatest sense of exploration of all. It has the most mystery to it.

I guess I always liked filling in the gaps with my imagination. This is why I love the world of OoT as well.

What's so amazing about OoT is that it really feels like a true world with a history. I can really picture WHY everything is the way it is; what the temples are there for, the war that took place, things like that. As weird as it sounds, it's easy to believe the world still exists, even though it disappears when I turn the game off.

To me oot is still a game that teems with mystery. Being in the forest, fire, shadow, spirit temples, you get a sense there's a ton of history in them.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 22:10:57 2013 No.1118193

>>1117795
>As weird as it sounds, it's easy to believe the world still exists, even though it disappears when I turn the game off.

This is exactly why I consider OoT to be the greatest game ever created. Nothing else gives me that feeling of complete immersion, the feeling that somehow the game world is more real then the real one.

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Fri Oct 4 22:21:57 2013 No.1118218

>>1117725

May I remind you that you're playing a video game, and that the exploration aspect being discussed is strictely gameplay and not atmosphere based. That's other issue completely non-related.

SS was beatiful as fuck, had immersion, had atmosphere, had everything you said but it lacks video-game exploration. And it's a video-game, not an story-telling medium.

It's still an interesting point you made, though. Well wrote.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 22:26:58 2013 No.1118226

>>1117795

Though I don't think that the original LoZ has the greatest sense of exploration of them all, I can see why it would; the part of the 3-part post I take issue with is
>There's no *theme* to anything in the earlier Zeldas. The dungeons are just kinda there. All the rooms look the same.

Yeah, looking back on them now they seem very boring and are really all the same, but the standards for what portions of an "immersive game experience" came from the player's passive participation (imagination) and what was presented by the game itself were changing dramatically during these years. It's much harder to go back from a game like OoT to the original Zelda and force yourself to work harder to get into the imaginative mindset that made it seem like a living,breathing world like it did for the first time. But it did seem like that and people were (and still do) go crazy with theories and speculation and whatnot about small details in those games that are harder to notice now because a lot more is right in front of you.

I guess what it comes back to is that as video games developed the user was expected to rely on their imagination less as technology got better and so people have subjective opinions of what's good and interesting depending on how they learned to love playing games. I see this type of thing with Daggerfall all the time on this board too. Half the people who play it think it's shit because the world isn't hand-crafted like the games that followed it, and the other half understand or remember that when the game came out a world like that was more than anyone could ask for and it really was amazing running around and imagining that you were in this huge living world, even if you couldn't, like, steal people's pillows and make a fort out of them or whatever.

Anonymous Fri Oct 4 23:34:28 2013 No.1118313

>>1118218
>And it's a video-game, not an story-telling medium.

>And it's a film, not an story-telling medium.

>And it's a book, not an story-telling medium.

>And it's a painting, not an story-telling medium.

>And it's a music, not an story-telling medium.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 4 23:43:29 2013 No.1118319 File: 120 KB, 800x600, Contra__Hard_Corps___Browny_by_Jombo_Sized.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1117731 totally agree. You deserve a browny

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 4 23:52:29 2013 No.1118325 >>1118218 If a video game tells a story in a way that actually takes advantage of the interactivity aspect then I think that can be considered a point in the game's favor.

Anonymous Sat Oct 5 00:57:58 2013 No.1118456

I always hated how unrewarding exploring is, and that there's not much to do outside of dungeons, besides maybe collecting the occasional heart piece or gold skulltula. And there's like one side quest that's boring and feels like a chore.
Not to mention the whole money scheme becomes just about completely useless after you buy the deku shield unless you're completely strapped for bombs and can't find any in the field. Which makes rupee rewards feel completely unrewarding

>get 200 rupee chest
>it doesn't matter because wallet is already full
>nothing to spend money on

Vitalidad !!FLBIcqqP/39 Sat Oct 5 11:50:16 2013 No.1119127

>>1118325

I haven't said that storytelling it's bad for a game. The "exploration" that the essay poster refereed to it's more related to the game's atmosphere than the gameplay, and I'm trying to discuss the gameplay/design here.

I loved Metroid Prime as much as everyone and their cousin's milkman's grandma, and a big part of said love came from the god-tier atmosphere the game had.

The other part came from the god-tier exploration the game had. Both are different things.

>>1118456

You would be surprised how rewarding the exploration in the 2D games is compared with their 3D brothers. One of the other aspects I would love to see finally implemented.

In my book, the only 3D Zelda with rewarding exploration was MM.

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