/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.11015501]

I'll preface by saying I'm shit at this game but I've beaten it twice and something just feels off about it but I'm not sure what. What are your opinions?

[Anonymous No.11015516]

X2 is great but falls just short of X1 in some regards

Last level is bizarre with how its just a copy+paste of regular level. I've always wondered if there's a lore justification; Like, is it literally the same place, or is one modeled after the other? Real answer is likely just that Capcom ran out of time ofc, but regardless it feels cheap and is a blemish on an otherwise great game

Wheel Gator is a boring boss and I hate having to fight him

Most subweapons aren't nearly as fun to use as in X1

Otherwise X2 does a lot of great shit - Sound and presentation are on par with X1, starting you off with the dash means level design can properly make use of it, and the X hunters gives it a nice little extra replayability since it encourages breaking boss weakness patterns

Overall its not quite as good as X1 imo but its damn close, easily my second favorite in the series

[Anonymous No.11015554]

>>11015501
I just don't get why Sigma's stage and Hyakulegger´s stage is the same.

[Anonymous No.11015595]

I never liked X2 much compared to X1 and X3. Never thought about it much, but it's probably that X2's bosses were annoying because of too many iframes (the snail without his weakness was especially annoying, and the ostrich sucked too, and I think there's a sponge that goes invincible), and the levels don't allow you to speed through them as well as X1. The snail's stage for example you have to wait for these dumb crystals to fall and break

[Anonymous No.11015636]

>>11015501
Just played this recently too.
At a glance, it's same as X1, but it's the details that make it very different.
They clearly put way too many bullshit moments in the game, that just scream "you should have known beforehand". Lots of moments in levels where you're likely going to die unless you memorize it. Most of the upgrades are
1) in spots where you can never see them and need to just guess/make a leap of faith,
and/or
2) are located behind a death trap.
Crystal snail fight is just retarded, so is Serges with his shield. Agile fight has him attacking at such a ridiculous speed, it's barely possible to avoid his opening attack.
The level design is just weird. Lots of sections that lead nowhere. Lots of sections where you just need to know they lead to midboss, or else it's dead end. Bike mechanics feel extremely raw. The stage with falling blocks is literally a straight line, with tons of instadeath moments, with upgrades placed in holes on the ceiling with no clues to them, so you need to autistically check each one. The start of the garbage facility level has a secret: the floor is breakable with the disc weapon, except THERE'S NO CLUE whatsoever, it's just same floor as everywhere else.
Some songs are excellent, some feel like they've been composed in 5 minutes with random chords, and some are just awful.
All in all, if you want to play it, just prepare for the bullshit, memorize everything in it, and deal with the fact that this game is a mess that feels like it has been slapped together in a hurry. Too much bullshit, not enough fun.
X1 >> X4 >> X3 > X2. X3 is nowhere near perfect, but at least it doesn't feel like a total mess, and there's barely any bullshit there except maybe for Sigma and the amount of backtracking for some stuff. X2 has some better ideas, but it's just not enjoyable way too often.

[Anonymous No.11015639]

>>11015636
Thank you for validating my beliefs. This is my same tier list (although I'd argue that X1 and X4 are equal, or maybe even a slight edge to X4). I don't get these people that put X2 above X3 or even X1. It always felt like the weakest in the OG trilogy to me and I think you explained why quite well

[Anonymous No.11015641]

X2 started the X serie's Zero wanking with the X Hunter plot and the Zero part sidequest. All because conman was butthurt over his oc dying in the last game.

[Anonymous No.11015650]

>>11015554
The X-Hunters are also seen hanging around in the stage during cutscenes. It seems like it's meant to be a control center for the whole island that X2 is set on.

[Anonymous No.11015651]

>>11015636
Good post and I agree with your ratings but X4 and X1 are my favorites.
I also like to play X6 when I want something different but mostly because X5 is FUCKING BORING.

[Anonymous No.11015746]

>>11015639
>>11015651
I love X4 , I think it's the most "fun" and impressive game in X series per se, and it definitely set the blueprint for the games to come. But some things drag it down for me.
Zero is really amazing, but his gameplay does not feel completely polished, mainly due to the boss i-frames. Beating Cyber Peacock with no upgrades is just stupid hard, for example, and General is dumb hard too even with everything collected (due to his huge body). Zero's skills range from virtually useless (giga attack, dash attack) to plain OP (double jump + spin attack).
Also, the level design in MMX4 is just whatever. Stages mostly go in a straight line, there's not much exploration, and I feel like you're supposed to just dash through them fast. It's made interesting with the characters' movesets/weapons, not really the levels themselves. Nothing really that comes close to MMX1 airport. And, aside from some Zero-specific problems, the game is a bit too easy.
Still, an amazing game nonetheless, that was a huge step forward for the series.

[Anonymous No.11015753]

X2 is more fun than X1 because it is harder and has more fun levels.
Something's off about the music though. The samples are harsh sounding. It has some amazing tunes, but overall the music is kind of unpleasant.

[Anonymous No.11015765]

>>11015501
>something just feels off about it
2.68mhz

[Anonymous No.11015779]

>>11015765
Counterpoint; The Wily wars

[Anonymous No.11015958]

>>11015779
One poorly programmed Mega Drive game offshored to a low-tier developer is not a counterpoint to the SNES having a CPU 1/3 the speed of all it's competitors. There are countless Mega Drive games with far more action than the SNES could ever handle, with no slowdowns and fast and smooth response.
Why does mentioning the factual hardware specifications and limits of the SNES immediately make you run defense by attacking Sega? Are you a console warrior?

[Anonymous No.11016326]

>>11015501
I have the same feeling. Over my life I've played X2 maybe 3 times. It was great fun each time but I am not compelled to return to it. Meanwhile I've beaten X6 dozens of times.

[Anonymous No.11016508]

>>11015501
X2 is my favorite of the entire X series. As few problems as X1 had, X2 addresses every single one of them. It's also the only one of the three SNES games that gives you genuine freedom with how to obtain items. There's often more than one way to reach them, an obvious way with a specific upgrade and a less obvious way that involves clever maneuvering.

[Anonymous No.11016515]

>>11015958
Dumb console war nonsense. I know you don't play Genesis games either, as most of them have plenty of slowdown, including the flagship series.

[Anonymous No.11016523]

>>11015765
>>11015958
The slowdown in the first Serges fight is insane. It makes the fight trivial but my lord. In fact, I got so used to it that it took a lot of time to acclimate to NOT having slowdown in the rereleases.

[Anonymous No.11016537]

>>11016523
It kind of feels like it is intentional in order to make it easier. There isn't more on screen than in the second Serges fight. In fact, there's less going on.

[Anonymous No.11016546]

>>11015516
>Last level is bizarre with how its just a copy+paste of regular level. I've always wondered if there's a lore justification; Like, is it literally the same place, or is one modeled after the other? Real answer is likely just that Capcom ran out of time ofc, but regardless it feels cheap and is a blemish on an otherwise great game
Funny, the designer was talking about this the other day, originally the last level would only be hinted at and there would be no sigma stage anymore as the player was meant to discover Sigma's secret base himself.

>Wheel Gator is a boring boss and I hate having to fight him
Very fun boss.

>Most subweapons aren't nearly as fun to use as in X1
Correct, but this a common thing in the whole franchise, X1 weapons were so overpowered they felt like they needed to nerf the whole system.

[Anonymous No.11016550]

>>11015651
>mostly because X5 is FUCKING BORING
Totally agree there. Don't get me started on the re-fights at the end of the game, why the fuck did they make their healthbars so damn big? It's an absolute slog unless you're using Ultimate Armor X.

[Anonymous No.11016553]

[Anonymous No.11016556]

>>11016546
People complain about subweapons being weak but then simultaneously think it is ok that you'd never even use the buster because the metal blade and tornado make it worthless.
My personal favorite implementation is 4, where you use the buster as the base shot, but are switching to sub weapons all the time because they deal with weird angle enemies.

[Anonymous No.11016557]

>>11015516
>Last level is bizarre with how its just a copy+paste of regular level. I've always wondered if there's a lore justification; Like, is it literally the same place, or is one modeled after the other? Real answer is likely just that Capcom ran out of time ofc, but regardless it feels cheap and is a blemish on an otherwise great game
Here's the answer from a developer (basically the idea was that you had to figure out which stage Sigma was hiding in, but the idea was scrapped). He posted a whole lot of information about RMX2 over the past few months.
https://x.com/sa1999_

[Anonymous No.11016558]

>>11016515
>Dumb console war nonsense
Stop projecting, you're the one who brought up Sega out of nowhere. Occasionally slowing down from dozens of simultaneous sprites is not the same as near constant slowdowns and horrible input lag in nearly every single game, and anyone who isn't a deluded SNES drone knows this.

[Anonymous No.11016559]

I don't know if I agree that the X2 weapons are less fun to use. X1's are "fun" in the sense that they're overpowered. Sure, I like giant tornados and invincibility as much as the next guy but they're really kind of...direct. X2's are way more creative. Turning yourself into a fireball that gives you an extra air dash, a circular saw that you can drop on enemies from above. A chain that grabs walls. A boomerang that ricochets around the room and up corridors. Freezing enemies in place and using them as platforms. They're more situational but you feel very satisfied using them in the specific instances they're useful. I love the feeling of getting the arm upgrade with nothing but the strike chain. Or using the speed burner to get around the spikes on your way to the shoryuken capsule.

[Anonymous No.11016561]

Interesting this just came up. I replayed X2 just the other day and was wondering about the Central Computer reuse again when it happened. Guess I have an answer now.

[Anonymous No.11016562]

>>11016553
>so a character dot was created using about 1/4 of the data for the 8th boss
What the fuck is a "character dot"?

[Anonymous No.11016567]

It was made by the B-Team. Capcom did this with most of their franchise sequels. Don't care about the quality. The actual sequel wouldn't arrive until X4.

[Anonymous No.11016568]

>>11016562
Dot graphics = pixel art = character sprite

[Anonymous No.11016569]

>>11016546
>X1 weapons
>overpowered
Holy crap dude. They're all shit if you can charge and tap Y fast. "Buster only" is not even a challenge in X1, save for select few bosses (completely not essential) and Sigma. I only use flamethrower from time to time to save my fingers from mashing. I can only see them being used in a challenge run. Otherwise, they're all slow and/or have terrible recovery.
X3 had decent weapons. X4 finally got that in order to make them good, they need to bring something to the table over buster, like larger angle and stuff.

[Anonymous No.11016573]

>>11016559
Anon, you can get the arm upgrade by just jumping, actually I don't think there is a single upgrade that requires the strike chain.

[Anonymous No.11016575]

>>11016569
Who cares about recovery when the tornado is on screen and enemies can't get to you through it.

[Anonymous No.11016582]

>>11016569
Oh yeah, so shit, the fucking tornado that cleans the room, the fucking invencibility, the flamethrower, the barrier that kills weak enemies, the lighting that does a lot of damage, the homing missiles and the fucking boomerang that easily hits shit.

Against slow ass weapons that have a ridiculous amount of delay because of sprite limits.

[Anonymous No.11016583]

>>11016573
You're right but it's also way easier with the strike chain and since you tend to have it already by the time you go to gator, may as well use it.

[Anonymous No.11016584]

>>11015765
X2 isn't unique in this you console-warring retard

[Anonymous No.11016586]

>>11016508
X2 might be my favorite Megaman game period. It isn't 100% better though. X1 has better music.

[Anonymous No.11016587]

>>11016583
It's easier but you can get it with like 5 jumps, I always go Gator first since you can grab all upgrades there first time.

[Anonymous No.11016590]

X2 lost
>Level changes after other levels were completed
>Bosses secondary weaknesses, like cutting Flame Mammoth noise or Launch Octupus arms with the Boomerang.

[Anonymous No.11016594]

>>11016587
For me I do either Sponge or Stag first depending on how I'm feeling. I don't like going to Gator without sponge though because I like doing the loop. My timing sucks but even if I get a handful of hits in it will reduce the time spent on that fight which is one of the few annoying spots in the game. I hate enemies that just disappear on you for a while.

[Anonymous No.11016603]

>>11016587
I go Gator first because he is the easiest boss and opens up an upgrade.

[Anonymous No.11016613]

>>11016575
It's shit. The tornado doesn't have any height. Missed an enemy? Wait until the tornado passes. There are select few bullet sponge enemies IN THE ENTIRE GAME that really call for using it, and in any case flame thrower is just better as it starts and ends immediately. You get more slowdown from the tornado than actual use. "Covers the whole room" my ass.
>>11016582
I feel like you've never used charge shot, the game is piss ready as is and the lvl3 charge already one shots 85% off the enemies (99% with lvl4)
You want to know what OP weapon is like, look no further than metal disc in MM2.

[Anonymous No.11016616]

>>11016550
>It's an absolute slog unless you're using Ultimate Armor X.
Or Zero if you use the combo mechanics

[Anonymous No.11016619]

>>11016613
Even if you miss a bat or something, they'll just fly into it.

[Anonymous No.11016626]

X2 buster was so fucking good they made sure it was the shittiest possible one in X3

[Anonymous No.11016632]

>>11015516
>>11016546
>Like, is it literally the same place, or is one modeled after the other?
>originally the last level would only be hinted at and there would be no sigma stage anymore as the player was meant to discover Sigma's secret base himself.
you can actually choose magna's stage after the boss rush and it'll still take you to sigma.
>Wheel Gator is a boring boss and I hate having to fight him
>Very fun boss.
he's boring if you use his weakness, but pretty fun if you don't. same with a lot of X bosses honestly but it's really apparent here.

[Anonymous No.11016690]

>>11016632
It obviously didn't work out so they made a failsafe to make sure the player would go there which was also unecessary.

Every boss is boring if you use their weakness since you just kill them in 10 seconds.

[Anonymous No.11016698]

>>11015501
The music sounds a lot worse and the game isn't as tightly designed as MMX, but it's the last good game in the series.

[Anonymous No.11016853]

>>11016557
Well holy shit, thats really cool - Thanks for sharing this, anon. Have some reploid tits in return

[Anonymous No.11016881]

>>11016553
>Zero was almost modified Roll
They really were just making shit up on the fly.

[Anonymous No.11016883]

>>11016553
>>11016557
I wonder if this is why there's a random broken teleporter before the boss rush. Some leftover element.

[Anonymous No.11016892]

>>11016883
He addressed that as well - he doesn't remember, which would imply it never held a meaningful gameplay significance.

[Anonymous No.11016898]

In the two dumped prototypes of X2, the grey building on the stage select is labeled as EH in the earlier one, IH in the later, indicating that it is Irregular/Maverick Hunter HQ. It is also destroyed at one point, indicating that when the Counter/X-Hunters broke in to steal Zero's control chip and parts, they destroyed the base as well. No idea why this was scrapped

[Anonymous No.11017382]

>>11015595
>and the levels don't allow you to speed through them as well as X1
This is the reason. X1 is really fast, the levels are short and tightly designed, and X2 has way too much bullshit and branching paths and crap. There's too many bosses like Wheel Gator that make you sit around waiting for their invincibility stage to end. In X1 the bosses with invincibility are like Chill Penguin and Armored Armadillo, and both are constantly attacking you while invincible rather than making you just wall jump in a corner until he shows up again like that fucking Gator.

[Anonymous No.11017390]

>>11016613
>Missed an enemy? Wait until the tornado passes
How are you so shit that you're using the tornado on highly mobile enemies? Tornado is for enemies like Gun Volt and Mega Tortoise. Also literally dash into the tornado, idiot. I learned that when I was 7.

[Anonymous No.11017450]

>>11017382
>Chill Penguin and Armored Armadillo
And Storm Eagle. And Launch Octopus. And Boomer Kuwanger (kind of). X2 really only has Wheel Gator and maybe Moth if you're counting his little transformation cutscene as time you have to wait. I guess Wire Spong is invincible during his dumb little lightning storm attack? I don't think either X1 or X2 are really that bad about bosses being too invincible, honestly.

[Anonymous No.11017489]

>>11017382
I actually have completely opposite opinion, I think X2 stages are sometimes too short, especially ones which introduce things like the speeder bike.

[Anonymous No.11017492]

>>11017450
Storm Eagle isn't invincible though. You can shoot him during his dives.

[Anonymous No.11017508]

>>11017492
Pretty sure Wheel Gator's never really invincible either. It's been a while but I feel like I remember full charges being able to hit him while he's flashing.

[Anonymous No.11017513]

>>11017450
>Storm Eagle
Huh? He has no invincibility.
>Launch Octopus
Valid, easily my least favorite boss in the game.
>Boomer Kuwanger
Huh?? He disappears for like half a second and you can still shoot him.
X2 has Gator and Snail as the biggest offenders of just sitting around waiting for them to pop up again, but even bosses like Ostrich have long stretches where you're just waiting for the goddamn guy to show up again. The only one that was kinda like that in X1 was Octopus, but it still feels a lot snappier because of how fast-paced that battle is otherwise.

[Anonymous No.11017517]

>>11017513
>the biggest offenders of just sitting around waiting for them to pop up again
That'd be Bospider by a mile.

[Anonymous No.11017549]

>>11017517
I didn't want to speculate, so here are the actual times of inactivity during boss fights:
>Octopus: average around 2.5 seconds
>Ostrich: 4 seconds roughly
>Bospider at its slowest: 5 seconds roughly
>Snail: 7 seconds at his slowest
>Gator: 9 seconds right out of the gate, and this repeats several times

So yeah the slowest interactions are definitely in MMX2. Bospider feels slow because you can only ever get one shot in, but the time between shots is still filled with you figuring out how to dodge him and then later on fighting the mini-spiders he spawns (and he speeds up so the wait time gets a lot shorter). I retract my earlier statement about Snail, Gator is VERY easily the worst offender, seeing as in those 9 seconds of downtime you literally do nothing, though I do remember Snail being particularly annoying about how long he would take sometimes - at least with the right weapon you can just prevent him from ever getting in his shell again so you never have to wait, which I accept as an improvement over shit bosses like Gator.
Octopus in retrospect isn't even that bad, he's basically on the same level as Penguin when it comes to invincibility.

[Anonymous No.11017559]

>>11017508
>Pretty sure Wheel Gator's never really invincible either
He dives for an excessive amount of time

[Anonymous No.11017560]

>>11017508
I think it's a little different though because Eagle doesn't stay off screen for very long at all. Gator is beneath that oil for a while. The issue I have with Gator is the cadence of the fight happens on his time, not yours. I also think Crystal Snail has a similar problem though that's because of the epic slowdown you get from the combination of his own slowdown ability plus the slowdown of the goddamn SNES.

[Anonymous No.11017592]

>>11017549
>seeing as in those 9 seconds of downtime you literally do nothing
That's not true. You have to kick up the wall to avoid him potentially grabbing you and also avoid the wheels he sends up. Wheel Gator's not some amazing fight but he's not THAT bad. Dodging the wheels is almost as exactly as engaging as dodging Bospider, except Bospider's 5 second waits are literally the entire fight. At least Wheel Gator only does it 2-3 times, depending on how long you take to kill him.

The REAL shit boss in X2, honestly, is Magna Centipede, since he takes forever even with his weakness since you just have to watch him do that slow teleport in and out after every single hit.

[Anonymous No.11017616]

>>11017592
i like magna's fight without his weakness. it does take a while but his way of augmenting your abilities with the stinger is really cool and i've never seen anything else like it.

[Anonymous No.11017623]

>>11017592
>Dodging the wheels is almost as exactly as engaging as dodging Bospider
Is it though? The action in Gator is always the same, sprint-dash to safety. At least Bospider makes you focus on reading his path from the patterns as fast as possible, it changes things up a little. And to make a purely emotional argument, I never feel bored fighting Bospider. I hate fighting Gator every time.

[Anonymous No.11017628]

>>11017623
>And to make a purely emotional argument, I never feel bored fighting Bospider. I hate fighting Gator every time.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Gator's main gimmick is like a more boring Yellow Devil. You know the attack is coming and it's not that hard to dodge. So you're just kind of waiting around. In the grand scheme it's not that long but for a Mega Man game it just feels slow. There's less overall activity. I'd say the fact that he grabs you is what ruins it. Because if he didn't do that then you could feel comfortable doing more stuff. Staying in the oil, baiting his drill attack. But because he grabs you which ALSO wastes time, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[Anonymous No.11017631]

>>11017628
Yep I think your analysis is 100% correct. I fully agree.

[Anonymous No.11017659]

>>11015501
bosses are lame. Design, names, special weapons, stages, just everything regarding the bosses is cringe

game is carried completely by its music

[Anonymous No.11017668]

>>11017659
>game is carried completely by its music
If you don't realize how music and presentation walk hand in hand you've never created anything of value in your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2F91Up9fT8

[Anonymous No.11017791]

>>11017390
If you're any good at the game, you won't use tornado to begin with. Try harder. Big mech and tortoise die faster from flame thrower, and are literally only 2 enemies where tornado is more or less useful.

[Anonymous No.11018356]

>>11016523
>>11016537
Unlike the second fight, the first fight has Serges rotate as he jumps. Instead of storing separate frames in VRAM for each rotation angle like most pre-5th gen games, X2 handles this by rotating Serges's sprite in-software, which costs extra CPU cycles to calculate and move into the system's memory, even with the CX-4 chip to help out with processing. This phenomenon isn't limited to Serges, too—you can see the same thing happen during Crystal Snail's battle.

[Anonymous No.11018360]

>>11018356
I guess that is true. Never thought about that because the rotation effect on Crystal Snail looks really cool, just like something you'd see in a 5th gen game. Whereas the rotating effect on Serges looks terrible, just spinning him around.

[Anonymous No.11018431]

What's odd to me is how the helper chip can render 3d wireframe graphics at full framerate, but slows to a crawl doing a 2d rotation.

[Anonymous No.11018642]

>>11016690
I think Wheel Gator actually takes longer to kill with his weakness than he does with the X-Buster alone. Hitting him with the Strike Chain will have him dive under the surface immediately after, but with the X-Buster you can get some good hits in before he resorts to that.

[Anonymous No.11018669]

>>11018642
You can trap him in a loop with the strike chain though. The problem is the window is extremely tight. I think it's like two or three frames just as he's above to dive. It's one speedrun technique that's useful to learn simply because it makes the fight less annoying.

[Anonymous No.11018678]

>>11018669
Oh shit, you're totally right!

[Anonymous No.11019310]

>>11018642
>>11018669
>>11018678
That aside, if you are doing dash and non charged buster, you easily kill most bosses in X1 and X2 very fast

[Anonymous No.11019324]

>>11015501
The original Mega Man X had 36 staff members, counting Inafune and Hayato Kaji.
X2 only had 6 people working on it, counting to those two, and some of these were working on MM7 as well, X2's graphics artist Yoshihisa Tsuda was also directing Mega Man 7.

That's why it feels like a lesser, unfocused game.

[Anonymous No.11019326]

>>11015636
>They clearly put way too many bullshit moments in the game, that just scream "you should have known beforehand".
You really can tell these are the same people who went on to form Inti Creates, no wonder even their latest games like iX2 and the Yohane game are full of "REMEMBER X2 GUYS???" moments.

[Anonymous No.11019620]

>>11015516
Captain N did it

[Anonymous No.11019629]

>>11016553
>>11016881
Roll Y a bewitch touhou character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqbPWUL6U8

[Anonymous No.11019634]

I don't like X2 as much, but this song rules:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG8WG1XIzTE

[Anonymous No.11019650]

>>11019634
Now song re-rule:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLgOwCWuJLg

[Anonymous No.11019674]

>>11019629

[Anonymous No.11019675]

>>11019629
Bubble Crab is great, too.

https://youtu.be/aT2Bi3paHLg?si=mEu7FI2MeQ9CvLjd

[Anonymous No.11019678]

>>11019675
Oops misquote >>11019634

[Anonymous No.11019704]

>>11016557
>>11016853
Now send him a link: https://twitter.com/akanuma/status/1791348076734820378?

[Anonymous No.11019831]

>>11016553
So.............does that explains the nipples on Zero's armor?

[Anonymous No.11019837]

>>11016553
>>11016881
Suddenly that weird comic about how one dude thaught Zero was a girl in X1 and got heartbroken when he find out Zero was a dude in X2, does anybody still have that comic?

[Anonymous No.11019905]

>>11016553
Considering that Roll is the first one to get sick in MM10, and that this sickness makes robots go crazy and rebel... then it is only logical to conclude that Roll betrays Rock and Dr. Light by going to Dr. Wily to build Zero's weapon systems while Dr. Wily takes all the credit for building Zero which pisses off Roll and makes Zero go back into his chamber after Wily sets him free.

Roll then kills Wily and she then offs herself because Zero had killed everyone else and she has nothing left to live for.

Roll gives Zero immunity to Roboenza while Dr. Wily reverse engineers the immunity and makes Zero the carrier of the Roboenza virus.

Though I think the idea of Zero is the culmination of Blues, Forte and Roll.

Zero's Original design was to be a long range fighter much like Mega Man.

Although if Zero had managed to break free and slay Mega Man and Blues (and possibly Forte because of Absolute Zero) then Dr. Light would be forced to create X as a replacement.

[Anonymous No.11019915]

>>11019905
>MM10
That's way past the heyday of Megaman when Capcom writers were tying all the games together concisely in the 90s, and since it was an 8bit cashgrab they lilely just winged it with the plot. If you want the infection angle, there's the Evil Energy from MM8.

[Anonymous No.11019950]

>>11019905
>Although if Zero had managed to break free and slay Mega Man and Blues (and possibly Forte because of Absolute Zero) then Dr. Light would be forced to create X as a replacement.
The official canon according to the Japanese guide books is that Wily never got to finish Zero. His cognitive program refused to accept orders and Wily died before fixing it while all the 20XX robots were retired by government order because they got fed up of Wily's shit and thus Dr. Light finished X on his own in a secret underground lab, hence his "I have no one to watch over X" message.

>>11019915
According to the Timeline website Inti Creates published back in 2010 when Zero Collection came out on the DS, the MM9 incident was the catalyst for Dr. Light to test X's reliability thoroughly instead of unleashing him onto the world while the MM10 incident was also a new impetus to give him "the perfect anti body program", which allows X to not succumb to any computer virus but also delayed his completition several decades.

[Anonymous No.11020189]

>>11019905
Why does every theory involve the OG robots being slaughtered? There's 100 years separating the two franchises. Just because they're robots doesn't mean they can't die of old age. Even a toaster will need to be replaced after a while.

[Anonymous No.11020239]

>>11020189
Back in the day, Bob and George was the most popular sprite-based webcomic which used Mega Man as its template and because we had no idea how the Classic and X series connected because nobody knew about the Rockman X books with developer commentary punlished by Kodansha, Dave Anez (the author of BnG) filled in that blank with "the cataclysm" as his own personal pet theory. The FMV where Zero has blood in his hands in Mega Man X4 made a massive impact at the time on people, therefore it just became accepted. "He already has blood/red oil around him, it must've gone that way".

>https://bobandgeorge.com/comics/archives/cataclysm/

Man, guy never finished it but he was already a working adult by the time BnG ended, not a college freshman like when it started. I miss those days.

[Anonymous No.11020243]

>>11020189
>>11020239
I forgot to mention, Inafune was actually directly asked about this by people, the popularity of the Cataclysm exceeded its source material, and thus became a question needed to be asked. His answer was mistranslated to "It's not in Zero's character, destroying the original cast", but a more accurate translation being "The destruction of the original cast is not in Zero's (official) profile"

[Anonymous No.11020258]

>>11019905
>Dr. Wily reverse engineers the immunity and makes Zero the carrier of the Roboenza virus.
Zero isn't immune. The only reason Zero is good is because he got infected, because, he's malfunctioning. That's also why Sigma insists the true Zero has to "wake up". He got infected during his fight with Sigma, in layman terms the virus made Zero stack overflow in his evil hex and that made Zero scream and hold his head giving Sigma the chance to punch Zero, and get himself infected.

[Anonymous No.11020262]

>>11020189
>>11020239
they should've just separated each series into a different universe as is. headcanons aside they don't really fit with each other tonally.

[Anonymous No.11020353]

>>11020262
The original idea was to move from Mega Man to Mega Man X permanently so the series could "grow up" alongside its audience, mature alongside them, kind of how long time readers of Dragon Ball grew alongside Goku and saw the stakes grow.

But Capcom suits internally see Mega Man X, Zero, etc etc as "spin-offs" in the same sense of the word as Mario Kart and Mario Party are spin-offs of Mario, with classic Mega Man as the "true main Mega Man".

After Mega Man 8 fell way below expectations was when they began to reconsider things, and that's when Battle Network was deviced as the "spiritual successor" to classic. It's why MegaMan.EXE is the face of the 15th anniversary logo instead of classic Mega Man himself... But of course Capcom shot the golden egg goose dead.

MMBN was pulling in so much money in merch sales they just had to rush out 2 games in less than a year (MMBN4 in Japan came out the same year as Rockman.EXE 3 BLACK) with gimmick gameplay features (if you connect the BattleChip gate and other stuff to your GBA Link port, you can use real life battlechips by Takara! Buy them all!) and BN4 was a shoddy, rushed product that not only killed the Battle Network momentum, it managed to stilt the momentum of the whole franchise. You can mark BN4 as the exact point the whole franchise software sales drastically fell off. BN was that big of a deal, not even X7 did this singlehandedly.

What I'm trying to say, Capcom gonna Capcom, the suits weren't going to accept the intent of Inafune, Kaji and Fujiwara to move on and have "SNES Mega Man" be a different character and PS1 Mega Man another character.

[Anonymous No.11020368]

>>11020353
Weird that they would see it that way. X clearly established itself as the "main" Megaman the moment it dropped and people picked it up. Nobody saw 7 as the "main" Megaman game on SNES.

[Anonymous No.11020373]

>>11020368
Incidentally, a lot of people misunderstand about Command Mission. People think that Inafune didnt want that game made because he had some bone to pick with Breath of Fire, but if that was the case, Fujiwara wouldn't be the third most important man behind Mega Man after Kitamura's departure. He was worried having two completely unrelated Mega Man RPG series would harm brand recognition (with Rockman.EXE set as the strictly RPG experience) and was already worried the X series still going on while Zero was going on being a brand poison. (Ironically he still jumped off Zero after Zero 3 to go back to X in X8 after X7 came out and got its bad reception).

[Anonymous No.11020717]

>>11020353
how bad was BN4? also as far as i know, the problem with the failed connections between the series, that is, from Classic to X, to X to Zero, and BN to StarForce, is the lack of proper bridges that actually transitions them, like, we got to see only hints in X4 and the whole Elf and fake X and real X backstory on Zero, but other then those, nothing, no conclusion or epilogue to either of these stories, because of capcom's stupidity, even castlevania isnt as bad considering we do not have a third game after Dawn of Sorrow or the battle of 1999, but at least there is proper connection between the games and their eras.

this is why i dont like alternate continuities.

[Anonymous No.11020735]

>>11019950

>all the 20XX robots were retired by government order because they got fed up of Wily's shit and thus Dr. Light finished X on his own in a secret underground lab, hence his "I have no one to watch over X" message.

>According to the Timeline website Inti Creates published back in 2010 when Zero Collection came out on the DS, the MM9 incident was the catalyst for Dr. Light to test X's reliability thoroughly instead of unleashing him onto the world while the MM10 incident was also a new impetus to give him "the perfect anti body program", which allows X to not succumb to any computer virus but also delayed his completition several decades.

So that's what happen'd to Rock, Roll, Protoman, Rush and Auto?........is that still canon by capcom's current standards?

[Anonymous No.11020737]

>>11020239
>Back in the day, Bob and George was the most popular sprite-based webcomic which used Mega Man as its template and because we had no idea how the Classic and X series connected because nobody knew about the Rockman X books with developer commentary punlished by Kodansha

What do those books say?

[Anonymous No.11021065]

>>11020735
Auto appears in Volt Catfish fmv intro

[Anonymous No.11021071]

>>11019674
>>11019905
>Rockman ZX"c" planned 2008 release or 3DS possibly
Project RCL novel is canon

[Anonymous No.11021697]

>>11021071
Interesting

[Anonymous No.11022048]

X2 will always have the best buster upgrade. Double fisting charged shots that ignore boss i-frames just feels so good.

[Anonymous No.11022172]

>>11020717
BN4 is nowhere near as bad as X7 or the DOS games, I'd even consider it slightly above the original BN but it is a gigantic step down from BN3, it only has 3 proper dungeons with everything being meandering in the Internet, no more Squares and other things.

>>11020735
Aside from >>11021065 which might be a cameo, it is still the considered canon as of Rockman 11 Production Book (which also dated Legends as taking place in 80XX)

>>11020737
Praraphrasing a bit: The human leadership had enough of the "Scientist of Evil" constantly threatening the world, since his was a desire led by jealousy and feeling wronged, it was decided Robot Behavior Research to be banned entirely and go back to mechanical tools with no advanced AI and cancel all of the RBR led by "The scientist of good". Both scientists left the public eye, to work underground on their final projects.

It is also stated Wily died before Light.

>>11021071
Rockman ZXC is Rockman ZX Cradle, during the 2021/2022 new years stream Inti holds, Aizu got drunk and spilled the beans, Tsuda had to ask him to stop.

[Anonymous No.11022179]

>>11020737
>>11022172
And like a retard, I forgot to add on my paraphrase that "advanced AI Robots" (aka Robot Masters) were completely retired. So now you know why Dr. Light had "no one to watch after X".

It's too much of a bummer ending to the classic series and it'll forever remain a book-thing rather than being portrayed in-game.

[Anonymous No.11022187]

>>11022172
Why would the banning of robots stop wily from doing whatever he wanted.

[Anonymous No.11022192]

>>11022187
Wily in most games steals robots rather than building them. The entirety of the MM3 robots, MM4's were Cossacks, MM6's were by various creators, half of 8's (like Clown Man) were by other people, MM&B OCs were also working or entertainment robots...

[Anonymous No.11022193]

>>11022187
Ultimately, the banning of robots meant a hard end on his original dream before he was wronged by Light. He had nothing to live for, but to finish Zero and even then he died before finishing him and the virus.

[Anonymous No.11022213]

>>11022192
>>11022193
Just because he steals robots all the time doesn't mean can't build his own. Without light/MegaMan why wouldnt he just build some, conquer the world or whatever and do whatever the fuck he wanted anyway?

[Anonymous No.11022216]

>>11022213
Because the ones he makes barely obey him. It'd be a disaster and he'd probably get killed by accident.

[Anonymous No.11022224]

>>11022213
If you believe the theory Mega Man works as a stable time loop and the lack of Mega Man (because Wily from the past kidnaps him to turn him into Quint and while in the future, Wily convinces his future self to cause shit again), Wily at this point was way too old to be a threat by this point besides one last round which was what made Leadership go "nope, enough".

>>11022216
Also, this. Zero was a genuine threat to his own safety because, unlike Bass, Zero was made to not have any qualms about laws of robotics or any of that shit. However he could never sort out his cognitive program.

In the Remastered Soundtracks Rockman Zero TELOS booklet, Makoto Yabe writes that Dr. Weil (who was the scientist asigned to analize Zero's body after Ciel's grandmother was asigned to analyze Zero's "good" cognitive program, which was a malfunctioning cognitive program used as the basis for an anti viral program) found Zero's "original" cognitive program in his inert body and he was able to fix it to take orders, thus the birth of Omega.

[Anonymous No.11022371]

>>11022224
It's not like a robot will follow the three laws of robotics just by virtue of being a robot. They're really rules for the roboticist, not the robot. The rules are in place to make sure robotics engineers are programming their robots to adhere to them. Wily has no reason to even consider building those rules into his creations. He WANTS his robots willing to hurt people. His problem is that he has trouble making sure they also obey him in the process.

[Anonymous No.11022387]

>>11021071
>Project RCL novel is canon
Since when

[Anonymous No.11022401]

>>11022224
>>11022371
It's not even the issue of the three laws of robotics, since Asimov created them specifically to show, in his books, that they don't actually work.
The issue was that Bass' programming directive was:
>01 - Be the strongest
>02 - Return to Wily's lab for repairs
When Bass gets his ass kicked and directive 01 is no longer a possibility, he resorts to directive 02.
Zero, on the other hand, implanted with the Wily Virus (which was likely made from the Evil Energy), was programmed to simply be evil. The virus is entirely unpredictable, to the point where Zero became good after fighting Sigma. Had this not happened, Wily would've probably been the first to die to his creation. Not directly, of course, but because Zero would've probably wrecked his lab and caused the ceiling to fall on his head and kill him.

[Anonymous No.11022410]

>>11022401
>The virus is entirely unpredictable, to the point where Zero became good after fighting Sigma.
Is that really what happened? It came across more like Zero was infected and then when the virus left him for Sigma it allowed him to revert to his "natural" state, essentially being able to decide for himself what he wanted to do. A clean slate sort of deal, not that the virus arbitrarily made him good. That would imply Wily accidentally created free will in Zero and the virus was suppressing it, which seems a more natural way of interpreting Zero's character arc.

[Anonymous No.11022415]

>>11022410
Basically Zero is X without McAfee.

[Anonymous No.11022432]

>>11022410
Zero is still virulent, which is why it was so easy to turn him evil in X2/X5/X6. One anon noted that, since he's already programmed to be evil, the addition of the virus (which causes robots to act contrary to their orders) reversed that programming, thus turning him good.

[Anonymous No.11022440]

>>11022432
Well I say "turn him evil" but in X2 and X6 you fight copies of him, which are admittedly so strong that it might as well have been him.

[Anonymous No.11022443]

>>11022387
Since hint biometal creation in Zekusu/Zex

[Anonymous No.11022450]

>>11022440
X2 is an odd case since it came out before a lot of the lore developed so a bunch of what happened there has been recontextualized. It is pre-MM8 after all. That said, we really don't know if the virus has anything to do with the evil energy. That's a reasonable inference and one that would jive with the general unpredictability of the virus. But just as easily it could be that Wily was a madman who shits out technology that even he doesn't fully understand.

[Anonymous No.11022695]

>>11022401
>>11022410
>>11022415
>>11022432
>>11022440
>>11022450
Zero wasn't infected from the getgo. Because Zero was already the "baddest robo by design" according to the developer document (pic related is a translation of it), the virus basically made his "evil hex" overstack and loop from 255 to 0, the virus made him good. Or, in other words, Zero is good BECAUSE he's malfunctioning. Remember in X4 when the W shows up and Zero begins to scream and hold his head? That's when he got infected and got that stack overload. The back of the Japanese box for Zero 1 also mentions "Build to be a destroyer robot, Zero became good after he was infected by a certain virus".

[Anonymous No.11022709]

>>11022695
>the virus basically made his "evil hex" overstack and loop from 255 to 0, the virus made him good.
This is the funniest thing ever. The most advanced robots are running on a fucking Motorola Z80 or some shit. This is the exact same thing that caused Ghandi to become an evil warlord in the Civilization franchise.

[Anonymous No.11022762]

>>11022709
It is hilarious, truly game developers writing what they know lmao.

[Anonymous No.11022775]

>>11022450
>X2 is an odd case since it came out before a lot of the lore developed so a bunch of what happened there has been recontextualized
I forgot to tell you specifically that this >>11022695 was written during the planning stages of X1, by the end of MM5's development, as the MM5 planner was also part of the X1 team so a good chunk of it was preplanned. Inafune believed Mega Man X should be more plot-driven and doubled-down on it once he read Yoshihiro Iwamoto's Mega Man X adaptation. It's also why he invited him alongside other of his favorite mangaka (like Hitoshi Ariga) to design the MM&B bosses and why he used the popularity of MMBN to convince a magazine to publish the end of the X4 manga in their own magazine, as Comic Bom Bom (the original publication Rockman X4 was being serialized in) went under.

[Anonymous No.11022782]

>>11022450
>we really don't know if the virus has anything to do with the evil energy
Wily can't program a robot to save his life. It's really doubtful that he'd be able to create a virus so potent that it's capable of mutating, manifesting as energy or mass at will, corrupting real fucking life and surviving for hundreds of years. He's the first one to get his hands on Evil Energy, which he uses to empower the robot masters in MM8. Even Bass used it in order to fight Rock one-on-one. It simply makes sense that he developed the original Wily Virus from it.

[Anonymous No.11022796]

>>11022782
The big theory back in the day was that the Virus was made from both Evil Energy and Bassnium, since Bassnium is brought up as an accidental discovery of an alternative energy source and then brings up Zero.

[Anonymous No.11022809]

>>11022782
He successfully stole Light's original robot masters and sent them on a rampage, so he's does know what he's doing. His problem is that he's YOLOs his way through shit without thinking. He regularly pumps out robots that can give Mega Man serious trouble and created the appearance of free will in Bass completely by accident, much to his own chagrin. He's Light's equal in talent. He just doesn't care enough to be careful. If Zero and the virus tell us anything it's that Wily can be terrifyingly competent when he wants to be.

[Anonymous No.11022823]

>>11022809
>He successfully stole Light's original robot masters and sent them on a rampage
Tinkering with existing code is leagues different than making it from scratch though. You know that.

[Anonymous No.11022824]

>>11022809
The general factor that shows up both in the Robot and Internet timelines is that Wily is ahead of Light in terms of hardware, but Light's software capacity exceeds him.