[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games

View post   

File: 444 KB, 740x416, Yuffie-e-Vincent-na-party.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10934716 No.10934716 [Reply] [Original]

Why the hell were these two optional? It serves no purpose because getting them feels so natural and being able to bypass their recruitment only screws up the game since now they can't do a whole lot in the story or appear in the FMVs. There's not even anything particularly "special" about them. It's not like Gogo in FFVI or Magus in Chrono Trigger.

>> No.10934720

>Why the hell were these two optional?
Dev time and budgets are a bitch.
> It serves no purpose because getting them feels so natural
I mean in regard to Vincint yeah there's no reason you should skip the Shinra mansion so just having him join there shouldn't have been a big deal. Yuffie's a bit more out of the way though.

>> No.10934737

More secrets = better
Less cutscenes = better

>> No.10934770

I like the secret aspect of their characters although I think there could have been a failsafe alternate recruitment method for yuffie when you get to wutai. Vincent on the otherhand could have just been left out of the game, relatively pointless story

>> No.10934779

friendly reminder that "optional characters" aren't bonus content, they're cut content that were pushed back into the game but without any backstory or justification or significance

>> No.10934784

Both of those characters have backstory

>> No.10934841

FF7, 8, and 9 were released during the height of every game ever getting a strategy guide. You needed some secret shit no one would ever naturally find to sell those guides.

7's Vincent, 8's secret cards and where to get certain GFs, 9's ultimate weapons and chocobo digging locations (the non-chocograph ones). All shit made purposefully obscure to sell you guides.

>> No.10934846

Yuffie's encounter rate is pretty high whenever you're in the woods though. It's unlikely someone playing normally wouldn't run into her.

>> No.10934852

I agree with this, too. The issue isn't that it was hard to recruit Yuffie and Vincent because it wasn't. You didn't need a guide for them. But just being able to say there were two optional characters was itself a selling point. It made the game seem a little bit more special for having two characters you didn't strictly have to get.

>> No.10934857

I wouldn't say they were secret. They're both in the manual alongside the rest of the roster. And it's not that they needed to add cutscenes but it would have been nice if they weren't completely absent during the goddamn ending.

>> No.10934906

I somehow missed that girl when I played the game for the first time 10 years ago.

>> No.10934915

It's not like they stand around mute during the in game story bits. And most cutscenes were just for big events anyways so them not being in there is only kind of weird in the ending and even then the ending is in and of itself fairly, I don't want to say abrupt, but it wasn't exactly a complex epilogue either by design.

>> No.10934923

Skippable characters added an extra portion soul Final Fantasy 7. You had another thing you could talk about with friends. It made strategy guides even cooler (strategy guides are a lost art now).
Getting these characters felt special.
I mean, think about it. If those two characters werent skippable, you sure wouldn't talk about it 27 years later, would you?
All in all, FF7 is a really fucking cool game.

>> No.10934925

I feel like a lot of games in general, are suffering a major problem where they not only want to overload you with a bunch of meaningless crap, but they're also afraid you might miss something unless directly guided to it. In FF7 there was a lot of missable crap and a lot of it, the characters most of all, had meaning.

>> No.10934926

They aren't stone silent, no, but they really don't get involved as much as the others. Vincent has the excuse of being a loner by design but Yuffie really doesn't do a whole lot either.

>> No.10934929

They do about as much as anyone else. A lot of the game is the party being reactionary to whatever is happening around them. And Yuffie at least has her little side quest.

>> No.10935616

I somehow never did the extended bit with the tower until last year. I don't read walkthroughs or whatever, so I missed some of it every time I played somehow.

>> No.10935760

>can't do a whole lot in the story or appear in the FMVs
Did... Did you even play FFVII??

>> No.10935979

his story's not important but lucrecia's is. should've had her join the party instead of chilling in a cave for no reason. then again it might be kinda fucked up to let a mother kill her own son so maybe not.

>> No.10936054
File: 1 KB, 273x197, 1709696480767349.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I ran into her blind. I also thought the right way to have her join the party would be the choice where you act like you don't care.

>> No.10936220


"(todays) games are afraid you might miss something". This is exactly why Final Fantasy 7 felt "cool", because it wasn't afraid of its own game design. It was the culmulative work of a lot of creative people and their vision.
Not thinking too hard about "how would a player feel it he/she didn't find x or y" was great, because todays games are too much of a product, which aim is to always, really always satisfy you - which is fucking boring and lame.

>> No.10938025

True. They should have just upped her encounter rate to 100% and made her questline mandatory. Not recruiting her literally makes the game worse.

>> No.10938054

You know how I felt when I used to find out if I missed something cool. I felt "Sweet I get to play the game I like again."

The story actually does kind of need Yuffie's side quest in order to act as a red herring for the Cait Sith traitor reveal.

>> No.10939765

They have their subplots but what do they do in the actual game events? Barret, Tifa, Cid, they're all heavily integrated. Yuffie and Vincent, not so much.

>> No.10939770

I feel like there was a perfect opportunity to make Vincent Sephiroth's actual father and everyone only thinking Hojo was. That gonk asshole would have poisoned the genetics for sure. In fact I bet they'll go that route in the third game of the Remake trilogy. But once again, there was no way to do that back then given Vincent was optional.

>> No.10939781

I think the difference back then is if you missed something you just plain never saw it. That rare monster encounter with the rare drop or the super weapon that trivializes the last boss may as well not exist if you didn't know about it. Today a game will not only let you know that stuff is there but taunt you about it, leaving a ton of unfilled data in the menus or incomplete icons on the map screen. That's why optional shit doesn't feel so optional anymore.

>> No.10939783

It’s more that their storylines explain why everything is happening, than that their actions in VII are important. Without Vincent’s backstory a lot of Shinra and Jenova’s plot points have gaps. Yuffies is admittedly less important to the plot, but it does explain what the war everyone keeps referencing was all about.

>> No.10939786

It also makes it weird if you recruit her at odd times. You can get her like 10 minutes before the last boss.

>> No.10939801

>They should have just upped her encounter rate to 100% and made her questline mandatory.
And this is what's so weird about it to me. The optional-ness of them seems perfunctory. Unless you specifically avoid forests you're like 99% certain to encounter her. And Vincent's coffin is incredibly conspicuous. These aren't really missables in the classic sense. Tuning them to be required would involve the smallest of changes but come with massive benefits to the writers who then could have put them to better use.

>> No.10939884

Nice schizo headcanon

>> No.10939887
File: 911 KB, 790x552, unJQj.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Why the hell were these two optional?
Because neither are required.
If you can't understand semantics, try swapping the word "optional" for "bonus."

>> No.10940000

It doesn't help that internet culture has basically spoiled an entire game before it even hits store shelves.

>> No.10940015

I bet that's part of the reason games are the way they are, too. If you're a dev there's basically zero incentive to hide anything. Even if you disregard cynical financial reasons for doing it and assume the best intentions, surprises get spoiled immediately so why bother?

>> No.10940031

They were on the chopping block since the devs were running close to their deadline and their events hadn't been finalized yet. They were made optional so that they could get away with not having many scenes for themselves or even a story reason for the party to pick them up in the first place. Yuffie was really tricky since nobody could figure out how to get her to join the party or a way to trim down the Wutai quest enough to include it (it used to be a lot more complex, involving Shinra economically pressuring them into demolishing the Da-Chao Statue so that a Mako Reactor could be built there). Masato Kato basically locked himself in his office and pulled a bunch of all-nighters to make Yuffie work since he really liked her. Having her show up in random encounters was a stroke of genius on his part considering he wasn't allowed to add much to the game to accommodate her introduction.

>> No.10940067

That makes a lot of sense. A lot of that game's content betrays that it came from cut ideas. Sephiroth and Aerith having similar hairstyles, for example, stems from them originally having been planned to be siblings. Which would have made Sephiroth's "muh birthright" autism make more sense.

>> No.10940147

unlockable characters are cool

no verification required

>> No.10941859

>might be kinda fucked up to let a mother kill her own son
Square got over that eventually.

>> No.10941908

Reminder that literally EVERYTHING that went down in the game, EVERY SINGLE HORRIBLE BAD THING all happened because Vincent is a cuck.

>> No.10941914

I know it was pretty strongly implied in the original but man everything outside the original game that they added to the 7 series is just... I can't even put into words how retarded shit gets. I blame Gackt.

>> No.10942143

I ran into her blind. I remember thinking it was an unusual enemy. Kids explore games.
I don't think you could run into Tonberry King from ff8 blind.

>> No.10942375

I never got Vincent on my first playthrough somehow.

>> No.10942794

>I don't think you could run into Tonberry King from ff8 blind.
The game tells you how to find him.

>> No.10943625
File: 1.72 MB, 1364x952, tbk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

This is the only reference to Tonberry King in the game (excluding cards).

>> No.10943982

You have to go back to Shinra Mansion for no reason and explore the basement during a specific timeframe. You’re less likely to get him by accident than you are Yuffie, who literally jumps out of the grass at you lol.

>> No.10943997
File: 130 KB, 640x480, IMG_0198.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>it would have been nice if they weren't completely absent during the goddamn ending.
anon didn’t play Dirge of Cerberus

>> No.10944117
File: 54 KB, 442x307, sad gren.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Anon DID play Dirge of Cerberus

>> No.10944293

Not super farfetched. They'll inevitably retcon Vincent into being Sephiroth's father in the third Remake game. So unless they decide to do a saving Sephiroth ending instead, he'll be helping kill his own son.

>> No.10944374

It's unlikely but not impossible, Tonberries are only in one place aside from U's castle and suspicious. Someone might not go look for a summon, but a rare monster seems plausible.

>> No.10945095
File: 246 KB, 2013x1290, 1389463659065.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>You have to go back to Shinra Mansion for no reason and explore the basement during a specific timeframe.

wasn't opening his coffin tied to opening the safe upstairs and beating Lost Number? I remember him being one of the few "difficult" disc one bosses due to his gimmick not being too obvious for a noob. I also don't remember the puzzle you needed to get the correct safe combination, but I remember it being annoying.

>> No.10945121

I don't believe that, if they were "almost cut" you would have things like subcontracted FMV cutscenes that had to be storyboarded long in advance where they show up even if you hadn't recruited them rather than the opposite

I think it's more likely they would have wanted to do more hidden characters without much story integration like ff6 and they were left with just the 2

>> No.10945142

>Why the hell were these two optional?
Because they're characters who don't interact with the story at all. Having them in the main party serves no purpose.

>It serves no purpose because getting them feels so natural
No it doesn't, it feels like optional side characters who you can find.

>and being able to bypass their recruitment only screws up the game since now they can't do a whole lot in the story or appear in the FMVs.
They never did a whole lot in the story to begin with. Yuffie and the whole Wutai story is completely separate to the events of the game and has no bearing on anything. They're obviously changing that for the Remake because it's a huge missed opportunity. Vincent has no impact on the story, he's just some guy from the past who gets cucked and then when he joins does nothing because he has no story afterwards like what's he going to do? I'm pretty curious how they're going to work him into the Remake like is he going to be part of the Turks plot or give him something to do with Chadley like I'm really struggling to find something where he can be an active character in the plot.

>> No.10945313

>I think it's more likely they would have wanted to do more hidden characters without much story integration like ff6 and they were left with just the 2

I think they might have wanted a goblin since he appears as one of the memory card PS1 icons along with all the characters.
Super Sweeper might also have been an item character. Where the sweeper appears in battle.

>> No.10945315


>> No.10945375

You can believe it or not, but the whole thing's detailed in Ultimania Omega. Sakaguchi wanted them cut, but Kitase and Nomura were completely opposed to it. Check out FF7's entry on The Cutting Room Floor- tons of shit ended up getting cut from the game. Hell, Vincent used to have a completely different backstory.

>> No.10946569
File: 192 KB, 1000x661, ocean.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>chocobo digging locations
FFags will defend this.

>> No.10946579

>who don't interact with the story at all
IIRC, if you bring Vincent to disk 2 final dungeon, he says something like "Hojo, the one who should have been sealed in the coffin is you"

>> No.10946692

I never met Vincent when I played FF7. Still never have.

>> No.10946818

This is absolute UI porn. I came.>>10946569

>> No.10946934

>Cait Sith
It's FF7, and there are 7 characters you are required to get, the other two to fill out the screen are optional.

>> No.10948337

There is an location called Goblin Island filled with goblins. I recall reading there was a memory card icon for a goblin on the Japanese version though no way of confirming that. That memory card info may have just been made up looking into it.

>> No.10948347
File: 107 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Interestingly though, in the remake there is an NPC goblin

>> No.10948383

I want to live here forever.

>> No.10948391

Looks 100x better in the original resolution it was made for.

Cat Shit should have been optional (tell him to fuck off when he forces himself to your party). The furry sacrifices himself to get the black materia

>> No.10948398

It always seemed likely anyway. Lucretia's relationship with Vincent and Hojo overlapped enough for there to be uncertainty. The big issue is it wasn't super clear if Vincent ever consummated that relationship but it's reasonable to extrapolate. And it's not like Hojo is the type to give a shit. He just wanted a fetus to mess with in utero and didn't really care how it got there. Unlikely any paternity tests were done though a Maury crossover would be fun to see.

>> No.10948407

>Because they're characters who don't interact with the story at all. Having them in the main party serves no purpose.
Isn't this a chicken and egg though? If they weren't optional more could have been done with them. In fact their optional-ness even impacts Rebirth. Yuffie does a ton of shit now but its all new stuff like trying to assassinate Rufus and replacing Pricilla in the CPR scene. Vincent meanwhile may as well be cargo. He does so little that you sometimes forget he's part of the group.

>> No.10949846

Cait Sith can't really be optional since his betrayal was plot critical.

>> No.10949865

>Cat Shit should have been optional
Iscar should be mandatory

>> No.10951267

I presumed the majority of Sep's psychopathy/personality came from Hojo. He acts a lot like him when he's taunting Cloud through disk 1.

>> No.10951272

And Disk 2. Thinking about it, Sephiroth's taunts in the whirlwind maze memory conclude with Hojo. Very much the same voice. It's clear they are father and son.

>> No.10951292

Rewrite the plot then. It's an RPG, shouldn't choices with plot-critical consequences be par for the course?

>> No.10951454

Hojo's sociopathy is different though. Hojo is a fantasy version Josef Mengele. Sephiroth was aloof but a relatively nice guy until he cracked and lashed out. Sephiroth is a fantasy version of a mass shooter. He does have a fixation on Cloud but that's extremely personal. Hojo has no personal bond with anyone, good or bad. He barely ever uses people's names and may not even have bothered to learn them.

>> No.10951471

Wouldn't be the first time a Cait Sith hater rewrote the plot

>> No.10951501
File: 68 KB, 588x360, newscaster yuffie.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anyway, it's time for newscaster Yuffie.

>> No.10951508

I swear this is the case. I'm surprised that people are talking about getting Vincent casually when the puzzles leading to this are among the most obscure to find in the game. I definitely do not remember just stumbling upon the coffin and having it open by default without opening the safe first or some other obscure requirement, because if that was the case then he would have been trivial to get.

Is is really a progress based thing or is it tied to the safe?

I'm very surprised that people are acting like Vincent is supposed to be the 'common' optional character, and Yuffie the rare one, when Yuffie is the one you just stumble upon in the field, even if it might take a while for some players to naturally encounter her.

>> No.10951509

Similiar story, figured she was like gau so i tried that type of thinking. I didnt have any friends that played the game so i just did my best.

>> No.10951531

Vincent involves a puzzle, yes, but you know something is up. That room with the coffin is very conspicuous. You even notice it in the flashback even though the door won't open. It's not really hidden.

>> No.10951538

The room needs the key from the safe, right? And if I recall correctly you don't even see inside the room without opening the door.

>> No.10951616

You can see a small ways into the room, but the screen cuts off before the coffin.
I always try pushing as far up as I can in the Nibelheim flashback to see if I can catch the bottom edge of the coffin in shot, with no luck.
As far as I remember there's a note left from Hojo in the foyer of the manor vaguely explaining the number puzzle, where he tells you his experiment can be found in that basement room if it's solved.

>> No.10951715

If you use a Gameshark to walk through walls the coffin is there and you can activate Vincent in the flashback. Shit gets weird and crashes the game.

>> No.10952834

>As far as I remember there's a note left from Hojo in the foyer of the manor vaguely explaining the number puzzle

Yes, and the thing is, specifically, that note is what's easily missable, since it's just in the corner of one of the rooms and isn't highlighted in any way, so you could easily not find it at all. It's suspect a huge portion of players would have either missed it outright or simply not solved the 4 combination puzzles.

>> No.10953406

I can say for certain that I never solved the puzzle the intended way. I'm pretty sure I got the solution out of a magazine at first. The rest of the times? Well, I don't need to look it up and I can tell you right now that the combination is 36 10 59 97. I don't know why, but it's permanently engraved in my memory. Point is, that was just one of those things that everyone looked up or was told to them or whatever. Like Fatalities in Mortal Kombat.

>> No.10953432

Took me a while but I found every single digging location without a guide when I first played it.
>more than a hundred hours
>timer resets and turns red

>> No.10954250

I was just checking it out again, the fourth combination is even hidden. It's still doable, nothing as difficult as getting the underwater materia, which is only hinted at in an extremely obtuse way by Shake in Wutai (after defeating Godo).

>> No.10954672

FFVII was a weird beast in that way. Most of the time the stuff you can find that isn't strictly required are either very obvious or have tells. But then you get an oddball situation like the Kujata summon materia where if you're not fast enough it just floats away. It's not even a particularly useful summon. I think what makes Vincent's acquisition a bit more conspicuous though is the game telegraphs it by making the Shinra Mansion a key location in the flashback. It stands to reason most players would be interested in investigating it once they reach Nibelheim in the main game and it doesn't take much poking around to figure out something is up with that room.

>> No.10956340

No, this is not "Like Fatalities in Mortal Kombat". There you would go over to a friends house and they'd show off a "cool move" they saw in a magazine or got from someone else and you'd ask how they did it if it wasn't printed in some random article you'd read about the game.

This is a very specific hidden secret in a long ass game that is extremely easy to miss and not at all something you'd "just know" unless you specifically went out of your way too look it up. Anyone who "just knew" shit about the game would "know" about Yuffie well before the bloody safe combination which requires you discover several abruptly hidden things and get past deliberate red herrings, which is why I'm finding it incredibly weird that people here are acting like Yuffie is the "more hidden" one.

The safe combo is outright the most clever thing the game does (in that it is possible to puzzle out despite being non-trivial), despite its significance only being apparent once you open it, which is why I'm surprised people don't discuss it more.

>> No.10956413

Yuffie is easy to encounter but you CAN fuck up her recruitment in a half dozen ways during the conversation following the fight. Though once you know she exists it's unlikely most players wouldn't keep trying.