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/vr/ - Retro Games

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10833208 No.10833208 [Reply] [Original]

Was it too hard to make the jumps less shitty? The fact you cant control the guy in the air makes it alot more difficult than it needs to be.

>> No.10833219

>>10833208
But that's not how the game was designed to be played. You have to commit to your jumps. That's what sets the skilled player apart from the scrubs.

>> No.10833248

>>10833208
Learn your jumps fag.

>> No.10833254

>>10833208
Then you won't like Castlevania either.

>> No.10833259

>>10833208
What am I in for with Super Ghouls and Ghosts? What's so different about it and the original?

>> No.10833269

>>10833259
Massiive slowdown because it was an early title. Make sure to get the fastrom romhacks.

>> No.10833275

>>10833219
>>10833248
This is bad design in a game full of "gotchas!" surprises, a slow character with large hitboxes, fast projectiles, and platforming that often require leaps of faith.
Rather than being skill based it ends up being luck/memorization based.

If you could controls your jumps, the game would still be a decent challenge like Mega Man.

>> No.10833278

I hate this modern mentality that every game needs to play the same. It's like everyone decided on ONE design scheme being "good design" and everything that's different is "bad design", and if the player has to learn anything then it's "bad" too. Even modern retro titles are like this, every "pixel art" 2D action game feel like they play the same, they have similar control and physics, one game may have double jump while the other has dashing or wall jump, but they still feel the same.

and by the time I wrote this, OP made a post about "bad design" comments, called it

>>10833259
Double jump, more different weapons, weapons and armor can be upgraded, lag.
It's really good.

>> No.10833282

>>10833275
>Gotcha! surprises

I don't think there any.

>fast projectiles

What? Most of the projectiles in this game move uber slow. Only one that I can think of that's like remotely fast is the penultimate bosses big tri laster

>leaps of faith

Please screenshot one jump where you cannot see the platform you have to jump to.

>> No.10833295

>>10833282
>I don't think there any.
You cant be serious, the very first stage is full of hazards and enemies that need to be memorized to be dealt with.

>> No.10833303

>>10833278
We get so few new platformers that it is double disappointing when you realize it has the kitchen sink of mechanics, with the full wall jump, double jump, air control, dash, roll, toolkit. So many mechanics you don't even use them all because the game isn't even designed to use them.

>> No.10833308

>>10833303
Oh yeah, and don't forget, the game needs to have upgradable moves with either some sort of collectible or "metroidvania" elements, because that's what good design is all about

>> No.10833312

I've beaten this game while using save states

>> No.10833318

>>10833278
This. Zoomers are so used to every modern game playing exactly the same that they can't comprehend there actually being different types of design.

>> No.10833328

>>10833278
Keep in mind that the average gamer can't learn anything new. Their IQ is too low. Note the seething about having to memorize anything. Memorization requires brainpower.

>> No.10833338

>>10833295
Like?

The bones falling out of the towers are telegraphed with an animation.

The brain plants have a lengthy spawning animation before their hitbox even spawns, and you can kill them before they expand.

I guess I could see the waves killing you first time not understanding how they work, but that's really the only thing that comes to mind. If you take more than 10-30 or so to beat the first stage blind then you're ass at video games a or a woman.

>> No.10833356

>>10833278
>>10833318
>>10833328
What you describe as a deliberate design decision, in older games, is often just a result of technical limitations rather than intended.
That's why some games play and feel like crap.

>> No.10833360

>>10833356
You sound like the type of person who thinks tank controls are bad.

>> No.10833362

>>10833356
this is true sometimes but wouldn't likely describe a sidescroller on arcade hardware. the jump was genuinely intended to be a bit stilted and perilous.

>> No.10833367

it can be weird and frustrating at first but i like it and gives the game its own personality

>> No.10833368

>>10833356
> is often just a result of technical limitations rather than intended.

There were not technical limitations on jump physics you fuckin' retard. You could program air-dashing and wall jumping and double jumping and turning around mid-air on the Nes. Do you think that they actually didn't know how to program mid-air velocity changes on the fucking super nintendo? How stupid are you?

>> No.10833369

>>10833360
as a general purpose control scheme they were bad. a few specific games used them well.

>> No.10833372

>>10833369
They were an excellent solution to the problem of 3D camera angles changing which direction is "forward" relative to the camera. Games like DMC1 would have benefitted massively from tank controls.

>> No.10833379

>>10833372
>Games like DMC1 would have benefitted massively from tank controls.
no. the action that makes the game what it is would have been severely hobbled.

>> No.10833381

>>10833338
Seems a bit excessive for a first Stage. I know it's supposed to be Arcade-like, but not even difficult games start off like that.
A poor introduction to the game is bad design, and no amount of elitist attitude will change that.

>> No.10833386

>>10833379
Wasn't a problem for Onimusha.

>> No.10833397

>>10833368
Wasnt talking about the jump specifically, but I dont agree with the notion that some old games played differently just because the devs wanted.

>> No.10833402

>>10833369
They're basic 3D controls.

>> No.10833417
File: 197 KB, 500x500, 1694979613304446.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10833417

>>10833372
>Games like DMC1 would have benefitted massively from tank controls.
lmfao

>> No.10833431

OP is a blatant shitposter that needs to be brutally killed.

>> No.10833434

>>10833397
>Wasnt talking about the jump specifically?

Then what? Give an example retard. You'll find you can't because literally the only thing that remotely has anything to do with "technical limitations" are shit like slowdown or sprite flickering when there's tons of shit on-screen or in general making the game have 900 levels.

Anything remotely related to how your character actually CONTROLS or how enemies move or telegraph their actions (you know, the handling and core design and surrounding challenges) could be programmed on a damn nes. People have gone back and made modern style indie games on nes hardware.

You have no fuckin' idea what you're talking about or what the technical limitations actually were.

>> No.10833438

>>10833381
skill issue

>> No.10833459

>>10833278
It's just losers who larp as egoraptor and say shit like "game feel" while asqcribing number rankings to games. Waste of energy.

>> No.10833472

>>10833381
>Seems a bit excessive for a first Stage

How so? It's extremely fuckin' mild for an action game. The zombies spawn slowly and move and move so slow a snail could outrun them, and for a 1 hp popcorn mook that you can safely kill from a mile away have no ranged attack. The skull flame pillar enemies projecile moves EXTREMELY slowly and he fires once every ten years. The skull towers have a lengthy animation before they drop, the boss can be sniped to death before he's even in range to attack you. etc. etc.

It's an EXTREMELY mild first stage. Contra 3 has a WAY harder first stage with multiple fast moving enemies attacking you from all directions, and moderately fast non-destroyable bullets randomly getting fired at you.

>> No.10833482

>>10833434
>>10833434
>You'll find you can't because literally the only thing that remotely has anything to do with "technical limitations" are shit like slowdown or sprite flickering when there's tons of shit on-screen or in general making the game have 900 levels.
That is not true, limitations on the hardware can make programming less refined, resulting in the jank you only typically see in NES games. And even if you argue that it's the dev's fault, it doesnt change the fact the limitations contributed to this.
So this goes beyond slowdown/flickering and can affect hitboxes, animations and hit detection, for example.
Here are some videos that prove my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW57NSbZCuY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuPTCoTUnJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6E8YmQUkdo

>> No.10833486

>>10833208
>that armor design
dark souls ripoff

>> No.10833503

>>10833275
If you could control your jumps it would be easy. And this is the easiest ghost n goblins. Yes all the gamers that played this and had a great time, and after devouring entire console's worht of platformers still put as one of the better ones. Their opinion is shit. The real opinion is you, some guy who got filtered and than went on a forum to complain about a 30 year old game cheating you. All you do is make the real gamers look bigger by disgracing yourself like this. People look at you and see you as less human. And yet you are going to still keep posting seeking validation from people who increasingly despise you.

>> No.10833535 [DELETED] 

The "behind the code" videos are too in-depth for the average person because they don't realize the real importance and impact in the play of such nitpicky thing.

Like how in one of his videos he showed how one underwater enemy had its hitbox 2 pixels off from the art, and since then everyone's who watched it will tell you that the game has broken hit boxes (and that they've known this since they were a kid). What they don't know is how common that is, there are dozens, hundreds, of acclaimed action with hitboxes that do not match the art, like pretty much every beat em up, without mentionning how standard that is for fighting games too. The average viewer just does not have the tools to properly decode the importance of what is shown in those videos, that's what they even understand what is being shown to begin with.

>> No.10833536

The "behind the code" videos are too in-depth for the average person because they don't realize the real importance and impact in the play of such nitpicky thing.

Like how in one of his videos he showed how one underwater enemy had its hitbox 2 pixels off from the art, and since then everyone's who watched it will tell you that the game has broken hit boxes (and that they've known this since they were a kid). What they don't know is how common that is, there are dozens, hundreds, of acclaimed action games with hitboxes that do not match the art, like pretty much every beat em up, without mentionning how standard that is for fighting games too. The average viewer just does not have the tools to properly decode the importance of what is shown in those videos, that's when they even understand what is being shown to begin with.

>> No.10833563

>>10833208
They worked on this game for 3 years lol

>> No.10833573

Why is this garbage thread still alive? What a joke

>> No.10833619

>>10833573
>responding to a thread you want to die

>> No.10833651

Ghouls & Ghosts > Supet Ghouls & Ghosts
Sega wins again baby

>> No.10833679

>>10833259
Super ghouls and ghosts isn't a seperate version of ghouls and ghosts. The japanese titles are easier to understand: GNG = DaiMakaimura and SGNG = ChouMakaimura.

>> No.10833684

>>10833356
Nigger you can change your jump arc in fucking ninja gaiden on the nes. They made it that way on purpose.

>> No.10833698

>>10833482
This is moving goalposts. The original post was that "what you describe as deliberate design decisions", in this case, fixed jump arc in super ghouls and ghosts, was a case of limitations. When it was proven this was bullshit, you went to programming jank that shifts the hitbox from the sprite by 2 pixels.

>> No.10833721

>>10833259
much harder than ghouls n ghosts on genesis
lot of pain in the ass autoscrolling levels
red arremers are even harder to kill

>> No.10833731

>>10833563
It's an amazing game, though.

>> No.10833852

>>10833459
Funny you mention Egoraptor.
He has a video on this exact topic (Castlevania 1 vs 4).
How CV4 changed the jump controls to be more lenient, but didn't really alter the overall game design to reflect this change.
Even makes fun of the people calling CV1's jump controls unacceptable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_PjqYQi5E

>> No.10833897

>>10833208
The jumps are perfect.

>> No.10833913

>>10833208
That's the point.

>> No.10833924

>>10833852
He also easily beat all other Castlevania games on Game Grumps but had to quit CV4 because it was too hard

>> No.10833967

>>10833208
It's similar to the souls games. It doesn't need to be easier because they made up for it by making it look cooler than any other game at that time (other than maybe contra)

>> No.10834803

>10833486
Did you really think this post was good enough for (you)s?

>> No.10834808

>>10833651
The sega port is dogshit. The game was better on PCE like always

>> No.10834813

>>10834808
>PCE
Supergrafx, you mean.

>> No.10834837

>>10833482
None of this is "jank". A hitbox being moved by 2 pixels is not something that any player will ever fucking notice or will effect gameplay in any way.

>>10833536
>re dozens, hundreds, of acclaimed action games with hitboxes that do not match the art, like pretty much every beat em up, without mentionning how standard that is for fighting games too

That's actually because hitboxes not matching the art IS good design and is intentional for just about any good game, new or old. If your hitbox perfectly matches the sprite it makes it impossible to play properly, with bizarre and janky looking interactions with enemy hitboxes and the environment. Imagine dying because a single pixel of your dudes hair grazed a single pixel of a fireballs glows outline. Shit would suck and no gamedev makes their games like that.

>> No.10834839

Why can't Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts jump better

>> No.10834842

Filtered.

>> No.10835613

>>10833208
And that's a good thing.

>> No.10835639

I'm a big GnG fan.

OP is basically clueless and should git gud.

Dedicated jumps are great for action platformers that already center around memorizing levels and rewarding replay. Giving platforming a real risk adds value. GnG has always had dedicated/committed jumps and that's a good thing, it makes movement much more exciting and rewarding even when not facing enemies.

Someone said the first stage is tough relative to most first stages and that's true. It's got a ton of surprises, variety and unexpected hazards from moving terrain to wacky spawn rates. It's awesome, way better than any 1st stage in contra games or even metal slugs imo

>> No.10835652

>>10833312
You didn't beat the game

>> No.10835656

>>10833563
And it's one of the best titles of the Snes.

>> No.10835780

>>10835639
>It's awesome, way better than any 1st stage in contra games or even metal slugs imo
I get the appeal, but it's a poor teacher.
What am I supposed to think when the first chest that shows up is a hazard? That I should avoid them.

>> No.10835807

>>10835780
Depends. In Super GnG chest order can be manipulated and memorized.

Also the item timer can be manipulated too. I can get a dagger on first chest maybe 70% of the time, but you have to do frame perfect jumps.

>> No.10836178

>>10835780
Rationally speaking, it would not make sense if every single chest had a trap. No developer would make a game element like that. I just kept trying to break the chest over and over because I knew there was no way it couldn't give anything, and then I got the armor upgrade.

>> No.10836274

>>10834837
>Shit would suck and no gamedev makes their games like that.
ZX Spectrum devs and reviewers were obsessed with "pixel perfect" collision detection. It did of course suck, but that's only to be expected of a ZX Spectrum game.

>> No.10836326

>>10833356

dumb

>> No.10836360
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10836360

>>10833278
I experienced this 4 years ago when New Horizons came out. Some of the younger people I know got it and I thought it'd be neat to have some people to play that with. One of them was like, "Why does time pass in realtime? Why is it synced to the system clock? Why doesn't this play like Harvest Moon/Stardew Valley/Rune Factory? They should change that in the next game."

I was thinking, "But that's a signature feature of the Animal Crossing series, you can't take that out. Do you really need this game to play exactly like these other games you played?" The younger generation really does need all games to play the same, apparently.

>> No.10836606

>>10836326
no need to sign your posts

>> No.10836708
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10836708

>>10833275
>>10833356
Why the fuck are people like you here? Take my (you) because you've annoyed me enough to earn it, go fuck yourself. May you get a urinary tract infection in the near future.

>> No.10836718

The jumps aren't the problem, it's accidentally picking up the piece of shit bowgun while having magic armor so you get that ONE retarded projectile that flies around nonstop and leaves you unable to shoot again. Horrid weapon.

>> No.10836750

>>10833275
most old games were about memorization. being "good" at nes/snes mario was about memorizing when and where enemies and platforms were spawning so you could speed through. it's hard to make a skill-based platformer when you only have a megabyte or less of storage and a couple buttons on the controller. if you want skill-based games you pretty much have to play something newer. the benefit of older games is that they all played differently. modern games are made on generalized engines that encourage developers to make pretty much the same game with different models. with older games each one had a different feel. the crash bandicoot remake is a great example of retro vs modern games. the remake handled like a modern highly responsive platformer and it made the game way too easy. a big part of the difficulty in the original was timing jumps and attacks right which became trivial in the remake where you didn't "slide" when changing direction and could interrupt an attack with a jump.

>> No.10837581

>>10836718
If you learn to aim with it, it's one of the best weapons. In fact it was my weapon of choice when I beat the game the first time on the first loop because it can get rid of red areemer really easily. It's like they aren't even there.
captcha: HN2GNG

>> No.10837596

>>10837581
That's my problem with it though, when you get magic armor you have FAR less control over your aim and you're instead left to the whims of the homing logic.
It's not too bad when you don't have magic armor.

>> No.10837623

>>10833275
It is you who are bad, not the design

>> No.10838479

>WTF. this game has rules that are unconventional?
I hate movement fags so much it's unreal.