/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10797235]

someone needed to tell rare that bigger is not always better

[Anonymous No.10797282]

ok

[Anonymous No.10797295]

>>10797235
rare is dead dude

[Anonymous No.10797398]

>>10797235
Yea it sucks now. But you really need to put yourself in the place of a kid in year 2000 who only got a handful of N64 games a year to go through. If you think like that, BT is a complete game, it even has a Multiplayer mode. That being said its one of my childhood games that I simply cant go back to, too much time wasting even when you know what to do, and contrary to SM64 getting around the world and levels isnt fun, its just slow.

[Anonymous No.10797405]

>>10797235
The game itself is fine, it's just huge.

[Anonymous No.10797409]

>>10797235
ok, lemme grab my time machine real quick

[Anonymous No.10797440]

>>10797235
tooie fans are why yooka laylee sucked

[Anonymous No.10797441]

>>10797235
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1678873144201818115


Blood type a is an evil sub human monkey. Kill the A nigger monkey.
Andrew tate =A type White and cockroach nigger What a lack of morality!

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1678873144201818115

[Anonymous No.10798082]

>>10797235
>bigger is not always better
>not always

And sometimes it IS better. Banjo-Tooie's problems are not because of its large size. Admittedly, the large size did not HELP Tooie's actual problems and Tooie being so large made the problems worse. But the problems do not COME from the large size, the huge worlds would be fine if the game was designed a bit smarter. The problems come from other poor design decisions, such as

>Maps are way larger than Banjo-Kazooie, but the main characters' default walking speed was not increased to match (a glaring problem, because Tooie also has lag)
>Areas are often confusingly laid out
>Music Notes are in bundles of 17, which means they cannot serve their intended purpose of a breadcrumb collectable that guides the player
>There is no Ratchet and Clank-style map to keep track of what areas you haven't visited yet
>The game throws too much information/tasks at you all at the same time, without any real tools to keep track of what you have or haven't done. If you put the game down for a week, you're FUCKED.
>Tooie does not fucking differentiate which collectables are unobtainable on the first visit and which aren't, which itself causes several mini-problems
>it trusts the player's sense of direction too much---a lot of people actually DON'T have naturally good sense of direction, and Tooie just straight up isn't designed to accommodate you if you're not naturally skilled with directions
>The content density is way lower than in Banjo-Kazooie. Still 10 Jiggies, but the worlds are huge. So there's long long long stretches of time where it feels like you make no progress. They needed more Jiggies per world (many of which being simple easily-obtained ones) or a new tertiary collectable in order for the maps to not be so empty
>It is too fucking slow. Just everything about it is way too fucking slow and takes way fucking longer than it needs to

[Anonymous No.10798104]

>>10797235
Every time i play Tooie i have a fantastic wonderful fun time right up until Grunty Industries.
then I usually take an indefinite break.

[Anonymous No.10798114]

>>10797235
Kazooie holds up because there's only one world in the game that you can't collect everything in one go. If you had to backtrack to Mumbofuck Mountain to get one jiggie after getting a powerup in world 6, that would be asinine and not very satisfactory at all. But Tooie is full of shit like that.

[Anonymous No.10798123]

did most people play Tooie without ever engaging with the fast-travel systems and connections between levels?

[Anonymous No.10798132]

>>10797235
I will mention that the Rare N64 games drastically overstay their welcome by the end. The last boss battles in Banjo Kazooie and DK64 are an hour long. Im over it.

[Anonymous No.10798137]

>>10798082
>Music Notes are in bundles of 17, which means they cannot serve their intended purpose of a breadcrumb collectable that guides the player
this so hard. i've wondering if placing like 80 notes (and still have the treble cleff) would make the levels feel less empty.

bk1 fans love bk1 because you can walk into a level and 100% it.
bt fans love the size of the game and interconnecting worlds.
i'm not sure if you can fix the cross-level jiggies in tooie as "not knowing" is part of the appeal.
maybe if the player is stuck in a level for a certain amount of minutes after getting the last possible jiggie, a jamjars dialog pops up saying you got every jiggie you could atm and need to move on.

[Anonymous No.10798149]

>>10798123
doesn't change the fact that the levels themselves are fucking massive and traversing them is slow and boring

[Anonymous No.10798201]

>>10798132
kazooie requiring 94 jiggies to beat the game was pretty ridiculous

[Anonymous No.10798219]

>>10798132
I kinda like it though. Too many games end essentially on a whimper. Easy boss, crap ending. Rare was never gonna let their games end like that. They like a finale.

[Anonymous No.10798376]

>>10798137
>>10798082
I worked out a concept for how Musical Notes could work in a Banjo-Tooie remake. Kinda autistic now that I'm looking at it. But fuck it I guess I'll post it anyway

>Notes don't pay for Jamjars anymore. Moves are free like BK.
>You don't need ANY Music Notes to beat the game. Notes are currency used to buy fun, non-essential stuff. The stuff you buy with Notes can make the game easier, or just give you cool toys to play around with. But buying stuff with Notes is never strictly required for any reason.

Since Notes are currency now, having 100 per world wouldn't feel psychologically right. So the VALUE of Notes you collect is artificially inflated from 100 to 1,000 Notes per world. (It just feels more satisfying to purchase an item for 30 Notes than for 3 Notes) The actual NUMBER of Note pick-ups in each world is 80.

And finally to make it more confusing.....there's not actually 1,000 Notes, but 1,200 Notes per stage. The extra 200 are just bonus Notes that do not add to the total. This is so the player doesn't NEED to hunt down literally every single last Musical Note. (And I want them to do this in the Banjo-Kazooie remake as well. Have 110 Notes per stage, but the last 10 are just extras that don't contribute to the score).

Each Banjo-Tooie world has
>60 Notes each worth a value of 10 (1% of 1,000) These are your breadcrumbs. These are rarely/never placed as singles, these are placed in rows, to form paths.
>15 Notes each worth a value of 20 (2% of 1,000) These are mostly placed in front of entrances/doorways, so the player knows at a glance where they haven't walked into yet
>4 Notes (Bass Cleffs) each worth a value of 50 (5% of 1,000) These are just extra goodies the player finds sometimes, as a reward for exploration
>1 Note (the Treble Cleff) worth a value of 100 (10% of 1,000) These are always hidden well!

There's 80 Note pick-ups, but they player only needs between 60-77 to acquire all 1,000 Notes...... What do you think?

[Anonymous No.10798393]

>>10798201
>kazooie requiring 94 jiggies to beat the game was pretty ridiculous

I think this is the part of the original BK that has aged the most poorly. Along with the egg/feather refills being locked behind Note Doors. Motherfucker, those should NOT be optional, no one wants to run back to Click Clock Wood to restock on items every 2-3 Grunty deaths. Fuck off.

It's 98% of Jiggies AND Notes if you want the double health upgrade, like goddamn. What the FUCK were they thinking when they made the portrait to open the Grunty fight a 5x5???? If they made it a 4x4 you would only need 85 Jiggies to beat the game, which is far more acceptable.

[Anonymous No.10798510]

>>10797235
>someone needed to tell rare that bigger is not always better

Translation: my attention span and dopamine receptors are completely fucking fried

[Anonymous No.10798519]

>>10798510
>uhhhh no the game doesn't suck, you're just a ZOOMIE ZOOMER!!!

shut up retard

[Anonymous No.10798526]

>>10797440
Yooka Laylee was better than Tooie.

[Anonymous No.10798531]

>>10798132
>>10798201
>>10798393
Honestly I never even beat the last boss in that game. Collecting the puzzles was the best part and when im faced with a stupid game board at the end Id rather just play something else.

[Anonymous No.10798534]

>>10797235
And yet open-world games with large, empty worlds have been all the rage for the last 20 years.

[Anonymous No.10798537]

>>10797235
>HEY RAAAAAARE
>BIGGER ISNT ALWAYS BETTER
They said they don't really make games anymore anon

[Anonymous No.10798541]

>>10797295
>>10797409
>>10798537

NEEDED. as in at the time...

[Anonymous No.10798574]

>>10798531
Plus why wouldn't you want to end on sexy Grunty?

[Anonymous No.10798576]

>>10797235
Someone needed to tell Rare
>bigger is not always better
>even more collectables is not always better
>the same minigame repackaged 10 times like those shitty Pong consoles is not fun
>FUCK OFF with the GODDAMN CUTSCENES already
I kept playing BK for years after I beat it because it was a blast. I still play it every now and then. BT and DK64 are both games I beat once and then never wanted to play ever again.

[Anonymous No.10799429]

>>10798082
stopped at the first complaint, try playing the game idiot.
>>10797440
kys

[Anonymous No.10799779]

>>10798576
i also replay BK more than tooie or DK, but prefer the latter, i just accept that i'm a casual now

[Anonymous No.10799797]

>>10797440
hookah lahey sucked because they removed jontron

[Anonymous No.10799970]

>>10797398
Tooie is also hilariously unstable. Speedrunners go through hell on this game, tons of random crashes and softlocks, and some not-random ones that happen if you're not careful with timing when performing speedrun strats.

Casually this game feels like a more boring Donkey Kong 64, which is just addictive enough to compel me to go further. Tooie rewards you too slowly and is genuinely confusing at points, if I were still a kid I'd have more patience for it but as an adult I just can't enjoy it, even as a kid I bounced off it pretty soon after the first level. It's got all the same design problems as DK64 but worse, outside of Kong switching and the forced ZX Spectrum games (they were kind fun for me, just wish they gave you more than one life in OG Donkey Kong like in the original. Jetpack was EZ)

Banjo-Kazooie remains Rare's best 3D outing. I really like Tooie's story setup though, they made fantastic choices for a sequel that broke what a conventional sequel story looked like. That intro is still a rollercoaster. Meeting Bottles' mom is hilarious and sad. The zombification scared the SHIT out of me as a child, a fate worse than death. I was too scared to go in that building after the first required time, only could do it as an adult.

[Anonymous No.10799974]

>>10799797
no one cares you eceleb cocksucker

[Anonymous No.10800001]

>>10798082
With a faster default movement speed I think Tooie could potentially be kind of thrilling to blast through, which would make me take back what I said in >>10799970. Would need to take care to make it feel controllable and not make Kazooie redundant, but I could see it really working with that consideration.

It would also help if Banjo had movement options that were naturally fun to toy around with like Mario 64's. He has a variety of moves but Kazooie's backflip is the only one that feels fun, and getting on Kazooie's back kills your momentum until the animation completes which breaks the flow. Imagine if you could crouch-slide into a Kazooie run and not come to a full stop doing so. I also think Kazooie running would feel a bit better with some subtle acceleration and deceleration and more nuanced airborne momentum.

That's something that makes DK64 better for me. It's got fun moves for each character (except Chunky lol) so getting around the large areas isn't nearly as boring as it would otherwise be. It's always fun doing a delayed Coyote jump off of ledges, or spamming long jumps, running attacks, rolls, and mid-air attacks when traveling long paths. You can roll in Tooie but it doesn't feel significantly different from walking, iirc you move at nearly the same speed while rolling.

Semi-related, why does Conker feel so weird to control? He's slippery, but I can't put my finger on it otherwise.

[Anonymous No.10800051]

to combat BT slowdown/low fps, we always did the faster banjo and faster enemies codes

[Anonymous No.10800204]

>>10800001
>Imagine if you could crouch-slide into a Kazooie run and not come to a full stop doing so

I think Smash Bros. does exactly this, but I can't find a good gif of it

>. I also think Kazooie running would feel a bit better with some subtle acceleration and deceleration and more nuanced airborne momentum.

I just want them to copy Mario 64 by making it so that if Banjo jumps in place, he doesn't go as high as jumping while running

>You can roll in Tooie but it doesn't feel significantly different from walking, iirc you move at nearly the same speed while rolling.

I don't approve of the commonly-suggested idea that Banjo's roll should be faster than his walk. That would mean you would have to constantly roll everywhere if you want to go faster when not in Talon Trot. It's not fun to force the player to either go slow or to constantly need to press a button

[Anonymous No.10800239]

>>10800051
>and faster enemies codes

Gotta keep it fair, after all

[Anonymous No.10800295]

I am sorry Bubblegloop Swamp is so low, it's what I'm most ashamed of. It used to be my No. 1 favorite stage as a kid. But as an adult I understand I only really love the music and aesthetic/vibe. It's otherwise a disappointing and lame level...... I'm deeply sorry. :/

[Anonymous No.10800448]

Why did they feel the need to include bouncing boo-bees in their game

[Anonymous No.10800529]

>>10800448
damn. her rack ain't bad.

[Anonymous No.10800626]

>>10797440

[Anonymous No.10800645]

>>10799429
>>10798526
>>10799797
>>10800626
guess i'll explain the comment
the kickstarter allowed voting from backers, and tooie zoomers wanted the biggest worlds possible and won

[Anonymous No.10800656]

>>10798082
High quality post. The criticism is largely correct, I'd add the technical limitations of the time, both in resolution and even more so framerate.
>>The game throws too much information/tasks at you all at the same time, without any real tools to keep track of what you have or haven't done. If you put the game down for a week, you're FUCKED.
This is probably one of the most significant criticisms. At least a listing of the 10 jiggies with a hinting phrase à la Mario 64 would have been the very least.

[Anonymous No.10800685]

>>10800656
>. At least a listing of the 10 jiggies with a hinting phrase à la Mario 64 would have been the very least.

The Xbox version of Tooie adds this and it's so much help! But then they also don't allow you to use Super Banjo......but there's also no lag....arrgh why must I be forced to choose which version to play??

[Anonymous No.10801219]

>>10800645
It's Playtonic's fault for adding too many Kickstarter goals, as in stuff that would actually bloat the game too much, and then being beholden to those promises even when they realized scaling it back would be better

[Anonymous No.10801287]

>>10800448
>>10800529
Not even the biggest pair in the game.

[Anonymous No.10801305]

>>10801287
that's just obesity. i rank tits by volume + itty bitty waist ratio

[Anonymous No.10801331]

>>10798219
I would definitely say the last bosses of Tooie and DK64 are real highlights after the slog of the late game.

[Anonymous No.10801546]

>>10797398
exactly,people bitching about how games are too long piss me off. I had an allowance of 10 dollars a week, these games had to last. Also anime was 29.99 a vid till the advent of limewire in 02'. Honestly it's why I switched to exclusively rpgs once I turned 14

[Anonymous No.10801605]

>>10798576
The "bigger is better" meme is still a plague to this day. Modern Zelda is so fucking shit because of it but normalfaggots love this garbage

[Anonymous No.10801789]

Been playing through BK1 recently and it's amazing just how much shit DK64 gets for padding and superfluous content, when BK gets a pass. Even if I were to count every level-specific collectable under one group there are still at least SEVEN different collectables you need to run around gathering. If I separate them, it's over a dozen. Then you have the over-reliance on context-sensitive 'action pad' level design crutches, and Mumbo Jumbo who does nothing but artificially gatekeep progression behind pointless magic sections.

I think the problem is there was a tidal wave of collectathon platformers that released in late 1998 and into 1999 that Banjo mostly beat to the punch, but by the time DK launched it was after most of them at released so people had grown sick of them. If Banjo had launched Christmas 1999 instead, I don't think it would be held in as high regard as it is.

[Anonymous No.10802304]

>>10801789
>Even if I were to count every level-specific collectable under one group there are still at least SEVEN different collectables you need to run around gathering. If I separate them, it's over a dozen.

And...? Okay??? Who gives a shit, do you think people can't tell when you're biased against something and are going out of your way trying to come up with flaws about it?

[Anonymous No.10802340]

>>10802304
Mate the number one complaint of DK64 is that it has too many collectables. Reminder that Mario 64 only has three; gold coins, red coins, and stars.

[Anonymous No.10802412]

>>10802340
>Oh no I have to collect 3 Christmas presents and a single fucking orange, my life is coming to an end

[Anonymous No.10802419]

>>10802412
>it's okay when Banjo does it, but not when DK does it

[Anonymous No.10802432]

Not sure why Tooie gets such a bad wrap. Seemed like a more complex and challenging Kazooie. The interlocking worlds and gained skills really makes it feel like a 3D Metroidvania. DK64 is pretty bad because it actually is like Kazooie except with way more filler, while Tooie is just more complicated and expects more from the player.

[Anonymous No.10802459]

>>10797398
>you really need to
No I don't. "The death of the author" extends to things like circumstances of the time when the work was created.

[Anonymous No.10803251]

>>10797235
I think Tooie is a decent game. It's main problem is that it kinda tried to be both a metroidvania on top of being a collectathon, which resulted in many jiggies requiring moves from later worlds (sometimes in extremely contrived ways), alongside a few other jiggies requiring extensive traversal through multiple worlds (which was likely a contributing factor to their sizes).
When you compare this to the fact that Kazooie allowed you to get every jiggy in a world before moving on to the next (with one exception where a freezeezy peak jiggy required a move from gobi's valley), I can see why such a change in design would alienate fans of the original.

[Anonymous No.10803413]

>>10801287
bro the OP even says bigger isn't always better

[Anonymous No.10803452]

I love BT, but the game takes a nosedive in the back half due to how obtuse every jiggy becomes.

>Mayahem Temple
Great first level, fairly easy to navigate. Each temple is pretty distinct as well.

>Glitter Gulch Mine
Easy to get lost in since every cave entrance looks the damn same. I don't have much else to say. I just never really liked it.

>Witchyworld
Best level by far. Distinct themed zones make it easy to keep track of where you've been and haven't been. People like to complain about switching to the money van and Mumbo, but there's always a warp pad nearby to make it less of a bitch. WW also has the funniest dialogue in the game.

>Jolly Rodgers Lagoon
For an N64 3D water level, it's passable. The caves are easy to get lost in since everything looks the same and pathways aren't marked the best but its fine. Wish they did more with the town itself.

>Terrydactyland
Too big for it's own good to accommodate for the Daddy T-Rex transformation. It really needs to be scaled down, and give tunnel to get from one side of the mountain to the other.

>Grunty Industries
Brings the game to a grinding halt. When people talk about running around and feeling like they're not making progress they're talking about GI. Even if you know exactly what you're doing its a slog to navigate. One warp pad per floor absolutely sucks and the transformations needing its own way to navigate floors sucks even harder.

>Hailfire Peaks
Absolutely tanks the framerate more than ever. I swear this level is always lagging. Another level that's too big for it's own good, but is more fun than Terrydactyland. Once you find the hidden tunnel between Mumbo/Wumba a lot of needless running around gets cut down.

>Cloud Cuckoo Land
Confusing level until you realize how everything has to go through the central cavern. Thankfully most of the exits are marked by color or shape so learning can take time, but it's possible. Having to navigate as Banjo solo sucks the most in this stage though.

[Anonymous No.10803491]

>>10803452
>Glitter Gulch Mine Easy to get lost in since

I really like the proposal someone made where they said the river should drop down a few feet every once in a while. Put 2-3 little mini-waterfalls in the river and then people won't be confused which end of the river is the front vs the end of the river

[Anonymous No.10803508]

>>10803491
That's a pretty good idea, I like that.

[Anonymous No.10803786]

>>10799970
Link some funny Banjo-Tooie speedrun meltdowns?

[Anonymous No.10803792]

>>10798082
I just played Super Kiwi 64 and it was a nice touch that you were made faster on larger levels. I wonder if the N64 just couldn't handle moving quickly through a large level because of issues like render distance. Whenever Tooie gets a PC port (still waiting on Kazooie) there can be a toggle for faster movement speed.

[Anonymous No.10803801]

>>10800295
You hated Mumbo's Mountain? It seems pretty typical grassy first video game level to me

[Anonymous No.10803802]

Love me Kazooie and love me Tooie. Tooie made me feel like I was truly on an adventure as a kid. Played the 360 versions of both recently and still had a good time.

[Anonymous No.10803807]

>>10803801
Man mumbo's mountain isn't even a real level. It's just an extension of the Spiral Mountain tutorial. BK has 8 worlds

[Anonymous No.10803826]

>>10800448
>>10801287
>>10801305
it's like an allegory for bk & bt
bk is a voluptuous pair of tits on a slim body. yum.
bt is a bigger pair of tits, on some fat landwhale of a big ugly bitch. bigger is not always better. op's point proven right.

[Anonymous No.10803827]

>>10803826
oh wait my post was beaten to the punch by this guy because i'm blind and retarded >>10803413
shit

[Anonymous No.10803842]

>>10799797
Aww I bet it was real painful seeing a eceleb suffer like that :(

[Anonymous No.10804041]

>>10800051
For some ungodly reason on the 360 version this cheat disables saving. Whatever at least I can play on the Mister for 30 fps (hopefully the turbo n64 core works with the 60 fps cheat code).

[Anonymous No.10804327]

>>10803786
I don't have any meltdowns, but boy do I have a lot of softlocks! A few of these are recorded on emulator, can't verify if they occur on real hardware, but considering how many there are...

https://youtu.be/Yr_Yz6j3Vd0
https://youtu.be/fOKjEbhR4g0
https://youtu.be/PURuHG3w8S0 (speedrun, but the runner doesn't say anything)
https://youtu.be/LbHtPGUEP5k ("Ohhh shit!")
https://youtu.be/cPGymokexXQ
https://youtu.be/qNncOrnWhMI (can be softlocked in a slightly different way as well, see description)
https://youtu.be/Yxi4eOy2TOw
https://youtu.be/Yr_Yz6j3Vd0 (There's many examples of these map zoom-out softlocks)

Too many to list, just search up Banjo-Tooie softlock on youtube and have fun!

[Anonymous No.10804368]

>>10803786 >>10804327
Oh would you look at that, found a meltdown! https://youtu.be/y0-X9O4nmzY
And whole compilation! https://youtu.be/8YKBIm9t04I

[Anonymous No.10804449]

>>10797440
Yooka made all the same mistakes tooie did, they learned nothing.

[Anonymous No.10805062]

>>10804368
>>10804327
No one cares about bullshit that 99.999% of players will never encounter

[Anonymous No.10805135]

>>10805062
Of course. This is for the people who find it entertaining.

[Anonymous No.10805153]

>>10804449
See
>>10800626

[Anonymous No.10805318]

I didn't like Tooie as a kid when I played it either.
The fun of the original, at least for me, was that the moment to moment gameplay was usually filled with something to do. The notes were plentiful and fairly obvious but led you around the stage and showed you where you hadn't been. Levels were compact but there was something to do in everywhere, or so it felt. And to me it felt like the first games levels were generally more colorful and upbeat in a way? Clanker's Cavern and Rusty Bucket Bay aside.
Two felt like the collectibles were sparse, there was a lot more distance between objectives, and levels felt more gloomy or weird most of the time. Perhaps that's just a personal preference but as a kid I felt that way too.
Yooka Laylee felt like a budget Tooie to me, which was disappointing since the toybox demo thing was fairly nice as I recall.

[Anonymous No.10805578]

>>10805318
>Clanker's Cavern and Rusty Bucket Bay aside
I think that was an awful choice: two water levels with the same glum and industrial themes. Rusty Bucket Bay goes even worse by forcing the gameplay beyond what the limited camera can provide. That's a low point in the game, like a good chunk of the end stretch, but nothing to discourage the player to keep trying.

[Anonymous No.10805681]

>>10805578
I wouldn't call RBB a water level at all. You're on land for most of it and discouraged from fucking around in the water outside of the 2-3 times you have to.

[Anonymous No.10805736]

>>10805681
Yeah that's what i was gonna say

>>10805578
>>10805318
I like both those levels specifically BECAUSE they are wrong and do not fit. Seeing a normally idyllic little word be juxtaposed by locations like this makes them stand out, and it satisfies something within me internally.

[Anonymous No.10805918]

>>10805681
I still think water plays a major role in Rusty Bucket Bay. It stretches through the entire level and, during your first visit, you'll dive quite a bit to explore. It's also easy to fall into it, though it causes no damage, but hurries you to do your stuff quickly. If you compare it to Click Clock Wood, which also uses a body of water, you can see how the latter just use it as a simple part of the level, instead of making it a relevant element of the entire place.

>>10805736
I agree with your point, but my critique was that both levels had too many common traits. The devs could make either Clanker's Cavern or Rusty Bucket Bay different enough from each other, while still avoiding a bucolic setting.

[Anonymous No.10805938]

>>10800001
>>10798082
There is a faster movement speed. If I found it in 2000 via game magazines, you can find it now.

[Anonymous No.10805964]

>>10805918
I see what you're getting at, but I feel like to be a water level, a majority of the challenges must take place underwater. Clanker's Cavern and Jolly Rodgers Lagoon are water levels. Rusty Bucket Bay uses it's water in a different way than for exploration like the others do.

[Anonymous No.10806021]

>>10805938
>You have to find a way to move faster

No the default speed should be sufficient to get around in a game

[Anonymous No.10806032]

>>10805938
You can't use it on Xbox and it absolutely is a huge flaw the game never tells you the code

[Anonymous No.10806039]

>>10806032
to be fair the game runs a lot slower on n64 than xbox
would be fun to see a framecounter
its probably like 19 fps or some shit

[Anonymous No.10806206]

Banjo-Tooie has fucking great dialogue. This was a 10/10 joke. Same for

>My daddy [Bottles] will be able to fix them if they're broken!
>But can anyone fix daddy?

And an 11/10 joke that flew over most people heads is when Jamjars asks if Bottles "went out fighting?" to which they say "playing cards, actually". He died playing poker but the phrase "playing cards" in Britspeak basically means someone is busy fucking around foolishly like adumb idiot while something serious is happening.

[Anonymous No.10806608]

how come didn't anybody just try to fix it with a mod/hack, I think a general rebalancing, increased move speed, better placement of collectables and other quality of life things could make the game so much better.

[Anonymous No.10806637]

People need to tell developers that now.
The "big" genre didn't go away. It just transitioned into tediously long and huge open world games.
I've played Cyberpunk 2077 for like 20 hours, and I feel done. Why is the game longer than that? I just want something I can experience, and digest, not homework.

[Anonymous No.10806663]

>>10806206
>Caveman: m-m-me c-c-cold and h-h-h-hungry....
>Kazooie: g-g-g-got j-j-jiggy?

[Anonymous No.10806691]

I played BK and BT for the first times recently, and I'm a Tooie apologist. Yes I got lost in Terrydactyland for three hours. Yes I couldn't figure out how to get inside Grunty Industries. Yes the backtracking is tedious at best and mind numbing at worst. None of that ruined the sense of adventure or whimsy the interconnected world brought me. My only genuine problem with the game is the rushed ending and mediocre final boss fight when compared to Kazooie. Movement in Tooie feels better to me.

>the reveal that Jolly Rogers Lagoon is a giant sprawling underwater level
Holy moly

[Anonymous No.10806694]

>>10806691
Same anon. I've been putting off playing DK64. What am I in for as someone who loved Tooie?

[Anonymous No.10806808]

>>10806694
DK64 is not as visually impressive as Tooie but it's moodier on the whole, and it's paced better. I like the movement much better than in Tooie, it's a fair bit more slippery but also very forgiving since you can jump so late after walking off ledges. The minigames are annoying and a couple of them are brutally difficult, but it's trivial to retry them. Beating the game requires you to play through all of the original Donkey Kong (ZX Spectrum version emulated) with only 1 life, which might make you tear your hair out.

If you play on an N64 emulator the game will crash after about 2 hours of playtime. This isn't necessarily the emulator's fault; the game crashes on real hardware too after about 8 hours of playtime due to a memory leak. Emulators don't have proper timings for several aspects of the N64's hardware, which causes the game to burn through memory faster. This also means less lag which makes for a better gameplay experience, but also means you can't exploit glitches related to lag.

I don't know if this is fixed on the Wii U Virtual Console version.

If you go for 101% be aware that there's a nasty bug in the final level that locks you out of 101% completion. You have to collect the 2 Banana Medals in Hideout Helm on your first run through it. If you don't, they become permanently uninteractable.

If you play on a real N64 using an Everdrive, you'll need to grab a patched ROM (or patch it yourself) to avoid its anti-piracy save erasure.
https://www.reddit.com/r/n64/comments/9h56ho/ed64_plus_working_with_custom_firmware_pretty/

[Anonymous No.10806821]

>>10806691
I'm glad you get it. Initially, the game is a confusing mess, but it ends up succeeding in really immersing you and the way it opens itself up to you like that is incredible.

>>10806694
Honestly, D64 really is just bad, it's no where near is creative as Banjo nor does it compare to DKC2 or anything on that level. Try it if you want, but I'd seriously recommend skipping it outright, and I'm saying this as someone who considers Tooie the second greatest game of all time.

[Anonymous No.10806880]

>>10806821
Some of the actual content in DK64 is really good. It has the best bossfights and setpieces out of all of those games. I like that it's a little harder than Banjo (which I find very "kid gamey" these days). The levels are big and filled with enough secrets to feel adventurous, without being too much, I would say. It just depends how much the colour coded collectibles are going to drive you insane. That's the real issue with the game.
It can be circumvented with a hack, if you're that way inclined.

[Anonymous No.10807407]

>>10806691
Based zoomer

Unfortunately Banjo-Tooie started tonight it's development rushed around the time they were making Hailfire Peaks, to get BT out in time for the Christmas season. That's why Tooie has 90 Jiggies and Cauldron Keep wasn't a full world

[Anonymous No.10807412]

>>10806694
Please for the love of GOD do yourself a massive favor and play it using the Tag Anywhere mod

[Anonymous No.10807594]

>>10805578
>>10805736
For the record, I also liked those two levels quite a bit myself, but I felt as though most of Tooie had a similar gloomy vibe throughout most of it.

[Anonymous No.10807607]

>>10807594
I don't know how it goes today, but, back in the 80s and 90s, "european developer" meant "gloomy vibes". As a matter of fact, it surprises me that Rareware broke that trope several times, though their roots clearly show. I don't how to properly explain, but, once you know, you can spot that an european game instantly.

[Anonymous No.10807646]

>>10807594
Y'know what fuck it, let's count!

>>>BK
Cheery/upbeat
>Mumbo's Mountain, Treasure Trove Cove, Freezeezy Peak, Click Clock Wood

Neutral/mixture of both
>Bubblegloop Swamp, Gobi's Valley

Gloomy/Foreboding
>Clanker's Cavern, Mad Monster Mansion, Rusty Bucket Bay

>>>BT
Cheery/upbeat
>Jolly Roger's Lagoon, Cloud Cuckooland

Neutral/mixture of both
>Mayahem Temple, Glitter Gulch Mine, Witchyworld, Terrydactyland

Gloomy/Foreboding
>Grunty Industries, Hailfire Peaks, Cauldron Keep

This list is missing nuance tho. For example, Mad Monster Mansion is foreboding but it's also handled in a fun kid-friendly Halloween way. And in Tooie most worlds are neutral but the pervading narrative and tone separate from the levels themselves is clearly a lot more gritty, cheerless, and realistic.

[Anonymous No.10807658]

>>10807646
Don't forget the hubs, Grunty's Lair is whimsical and fun despite being a cave/lair while Isle of Hags feels and sounds grim and lifeless

[Anonymous No.10807678]

>>10807607
Yeah I get what you mean, but it's certainly hard to describe.
>>10807646
Yeah I actually remember Mad Monster Mansion and even Gobi Valley as fun whimsical levels despite the theming. As for Tooie, Jolly Roger Bay was one of my favorites aesthetically.
>>10807658
This too. There's a whimsy that's missing in Tooie in most places and unfortunately that's something I always loved about Kazooie, and Diddy Kong Racing for that matter.

[Anonymous No.10807757]

>>10798534
they have better navigation tools.

[Anonymous No.10807943]

>>10806206
BT's dialogue is a real highlight for me. The "can anyone fix daddy" line got me good on a recent playthrough. Also every interaction in Witchyworld is pure gold.

[Anonymous No.10807953]

every time
https://youtu.be/DCvKDMvyWVo?si=ukiM5ZeUALdpW-_d

[Anonymous No.10808274]

I will never understand the crying over Rare's 3D games. How the fuck did people get lost in Terrydactyl land? How can people goon over Metroidvanias all day, yet get fucked by Grunty Industries? These were games beaten by literal children.

[Anonymous No.10808287]

>>10803802

Based

[Anonymous No.10809685]

>>10808274
I dunno maybe cuz it's a vertical cylinder full of unmarked swiss cheese hole caves everywhere

[Anonymous No.10809715]

>>10808274
>How the fuck did people get lost in Terrydactyl land

The specific section you need to pass through to get to the upper sections isn't immediately obvious, and so tons of content in the level is locked behind this.

[Anonymous No.10810075]

>>10809685
And Doom is a bunch of hallways and rooms that all look the same. Point is people have spacial awareness and memory to recognize where they have and haven't been and the geometry of things. It shouldn't be hard to have a grasp on things after your natural exploration of a stage the first time.

[Anonymous No.10810395]

>getting filtered by Tooie in 2024

You're not getting any upboats here faggot

[Anonymous No.10810542]

>>10808274
God I love Grunty Industries. Exploring and uncovering it's secrets was such a fun time

[Anonymous No.10811473]

>>10810075
Let's be fair, some maps in doom fuckin suck to navigate and we get a nice automap to ease the confusion. No such automap for Tooie, but online maps aren't hard to find and should serve just as well.

[Anonymous No.10811662]

>>10809715
that area is literally the entire reason people have bitched and moaned about this world for decades, and it becomes a cakewalk after the fact. Just proves tooie criticism comes down to "I GOT FURSTRATED AS A KID, OKAY?!"

[Anonymous No.10811667]

What a dumb thread. Clearly a silly child made it

[Anonymous No.10811867]

>>10797440
Please, elaborate. : )

[Anonymous No.10811873]

>>10797440
The defining characteristic of Tooie ous interconnected worlds.
Yooka Layla doesnt have this, so its more like Kazooie.
Yooka sucks because it blows its load on an amazing world 1 and the other 4 levels are boring.
The game had millions of dollars in backing and its more poorly designed.
It can easily be sequence broken, by hoping on the aesthetic edges of walls, so half the time the intended solution is irrelevant.
I haven't seen a major game this broken since metal gear 1 (nes).

[Anonymous No.10811884]

>>10807943
I had a bad day working the kitchen yesterday. Its ruined my ability to enjoy reading Leviticus and now Tooie.
Anything cooking related I'm just not about right now.

[Anonymous No.10811934]

>>10797440
Yooka-Laylee sucked because its characters and the world aren't nearly as appealing as Banjo's starting with something as basic as the colors used. Simple as.

[Anonymous No.10811943]

>>10811934
If that were true, you could magically fix the game by modding it with Kazooie assets.
Methinks it would still sucketh.

[Anonymous No.10811958]

>>10811943
It would bring it from being 5/10 game for Rarefags to being 6/10 game with a more general appeal.

[Anonymous No.10812907]

>>10811873
>It can easily be sequence broken, by hoping on the aesthetic edges of walls, so half the time the intended solution is irrelevant.

This really pissed me off. It's an incredibly amateur thing to do, and speaks to how shoddy the whole thing was.

[Anonymous No.10812925]

>>10797235
It's not better, but it's still good.

[Anonymous No.10814256]

I suppose I'd better bump this before it does, even tho thread activity is steadily dropping. Otherwise someone will just make another Banjo thread in 2 days that gets 9 posts then dies.

Healthier to keep it in one place. Does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss about Banjo-Tooie, negative or positive?

[Anonymous No.10814404]

>>10814256
As a kid I got Tooie without knowing about the existence of the first one, and only learned it was a sequel years later. Absolutely loved it, having stupidly big places to just wander around with the various transformations, poke around the various map elements and stuff piqued the imaginative child brain in exactly the right way. I still have some random doodles I did in school of dumb tank things based on Grunty's boss fight.
I haven't gone back to it since then out of fear of tainting those memories, but I should get around to playing Kazooie at some point.

[Anonymous No.10814562]

I'm gonna sit down and write a detailed list of all the little problems in Banjo-Tooie (out of love of course. I like it more than BK) idk if I'll finish that tomorrow or if I'll be busy but I want to just compile a list of ALL the little issues in BT, in general and per-level

The goldfish fast swim being optional and easy to miss is going at the top of the list

[Anonymous No.10814675]

>>10814256
>Does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss about Banjo-Tooie, negative or positive?
Does it need to be about Tooie? Why not about Banjo in general?

[Anonymous No.10814707]

>>10814256
I wish tooie was more complete. the game it stopping at 90 jiggies triggered my autism.
i'm real thankful the dev showed cut level plans for the final stage as it was supposed to be a real stage.

bottles revenge mode being disabled when its basically 99% complete is just weird too.
I used to use gameshark and play it with friends. it sucks this wasn't finished for the xbox live release.

also it needs to be stated but if you were obsessed with kazooie before tooie's release, the implementation of stop n swap was really disappointing.
nintendo power showing off the codes for all 6 eggs when they weren't all used was an opps lol.
at least at this point we know the addresses of all stop n swap items on boot now and can trigger "real" stop n swop in kazooie.

[Anonymous No.10814747]

>>10814707
>can trigger "real" stop n swop in kazooie.
What does this mean?

[Anonymous No.10814757]

>>10802459
Death of the author is postmodern (as in actually postmodern instead of the petersonist bastardization of the term) bullshit. You should absolutely see works of art (and yes video games are art) in their historical contexts. 64 bit era games are often clunky and downright ugly to look at, but should you let it bother you? I don't think so. It has its charm because it's from a different time, like how black and white movies are comfy soul because you know it was made a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.10814762]

>>10814707
Also let the devil Bottles player control bosses as well.
They thought it would be too strong, but it basically equalizes by itself: If people are playing BOttles revenge mode they would do it as a fun side mode thing, not a serious playthrough, so does it really matter if the player can control the bosses? Also just introduce a cooldown phase between boss attacks the player must wait.
Makes you woder if they also intended for the devil Bottles player to be able to control Grunty or if her as the main villain and final fight would have been the exception. Of course her phases with the questions and all don't really fit player control.

[Anonymous No.10814787]

>>10814707
>bottles revenge mode being disabled when its basically 99% complete is just weird too.

This is a little-known Banjo fact but apparently the first BK came very close to having split screen multiplayer with up to 4 players. Some dude said if he had another month or so to work on it it would have made it in. I don't think it was like Tooie's multiplayer, I think it was multiple banjos and kazooies running around the same world but idk

[Anonymous No.10814793]

>>10814747
https://tcrf.net/Banjo-Kazooie/Stop_N_Swop#The_Mechanism
"real" meaning its just hot swapping the cartridges and we know what data it sends/looks for

bk1 stop n swop is solved but the code missing in final versions of bt and dk64 sucks

[Anonymous No.10814804]

>>10814793
I think sns was cold swapping not hot swapping. But Nintendo thought it was hot swapping which caused them to freak the fuck out. And unfortunately the guy who knew the difference between hot/cold just wasn't in the office that week

[Anonymous No.10814808]

>>10814793
in other news, early dk64 builds have the icekey door, judging from other region strategy guides

[Anonymous No.10814819]

>>10814804
I think it was done while off during a short amount of time, but players would probably try it while it was still on and damage their console/games

[Anonymous No.10814826]

>>10814793
So you can use a gameshark to activate this swap method in the original to trigger in Tooie?

[Anonymous No.10814828]

>>10814804
Idk why they didn't just compromise with using the transfer pack. Beats scrapping everything.

[Anonymous No.10814838]

>>10814819
So there was going to be connectivity with DK64 in addition to Tooie? Would have been cool to see Banjo show up in game or added to the vs mode or something.

[Anonymous No.10814847]

>>10814838
Yeah, that mysterious lone pillar in Creepy Castle everyone thought was weird was going to have a golden bust of DK's head on it. This was only discovered in recent years through German strategy guides that failed to cover up the information. Presumably the gold bust was a Stop N Swop item

Also there's that whole bullshit with sending the Ice Key over to DK64, which we've known for ages even if we still don't know what the final stage would actually unlock

[Anonymous No.10814858]

>>10814847
I really wish we had beta builds of kazooie, tooie and dk64.

[Anonymous No.10814859]

>>10803452
>Go into Madam Grunty's tent
>"You get a beating"
>[sound effects of Banjo getting pummeled]

[Anonymous No.10814867]

>>10814858
One day....one day

[Anonymous No.10814869]

>>10798114
>1 go Mumbo's to the swamp
>open of Freezeezy Peak and Gobi's
>run into gobis and avoid FUCKING EVERYTHING but the mole hill for the shoes
>leave and go to freezeezy peak
Any other way is wrong

[Anonymous No.10814879]

>>10814838
>>10814847
there's a weird dead end in crystal cave where people think the ice key would've done something

[Anonymous No.10814906]

Well you dorks seem to enjoy sharing obscure and semi-obscure Banjo-Kazooie knowledge. The more the merrier.

The FP portrait has a beta Mumbo skull and the devs also accidentally left in red lines that are the AI path for the Boggy race, in the bottom corners.

[Anonymous No.10814909]

And while I'm fucking around on no clip, I might ass well also show off that Jiggies are actually subtly asymmetrical. It's fairly consistent across most depictions of Jiggies in the games and the merchandise.

[Anonymous No.10814925]

>>10814838
It sounds like it was going to be a full Zelda-style trade chain. You send the Ice Key to Donkey Kong 64, get a reward, then the golden DK statue appears. Presumably, you would have taken the golden DK statue into Jet Force Gemini and traded ("swop"ed) it for the next item.

The eggs were seemingly ONLY for Tooie, though. (and the Ice Key could seemingly also be sent to Tooie in addition to DK64)

[Anonymous No.10814941]

>>10814925
Would have been funny if this was implemented and you sent the ice key across Banjo, DK, Gemini, Tooie, Perfect Dark and then finally use the key to unlock some secret, massive doorway in Conker, only for it to be some mudane, pointless item or easter egg and all Conker says is:
>Is that it? What a rip-off!

[Anonymous No.10815124]

>>10814906
The dino roar code in TDL spells "item" in morse code ("open" is way too long in morse code)

The last set of 6 empty honeycombs in BK don't actually extend your health bar, they're just extras

Solo Kazooie can use her flutter jump forever in Tooie, just hold it down and avoid all fall damage

Pic rel

There's a jump pad hidden in the long grass behind the entrance to Click Clock Wood that lets you get the extra life on top

[Anonymous No.10815225]

rare had high hopes to utilize stop n' swop and the leftovers of what they had planned had left a burning question among many fans for years. but, in the end, when the tech to read memory cards and grant carryover bonuses became reliably available, no developer really bothered to use it

[Anonymous No.10815269]

>>10815225
i really wonder why they didn't use a memory pak for stop n swop all along?
its not like it didn't exist when bk1 was being made.

[Anonymous No.10815425]

>>10814562
>The goldfish fast swim
That what?

[Anonymous No.10815571]

>>10815425
I think hes talking about the fast swim technique (holding A+B)? Which is hidden in Spiral Mountain.

[Anonymous No.10817086]

>>10815124
Thanks a lot, anon! That's good trivia. The only one I knew about was the 6 empty honeycombs in BK. I actually collected them all, and was pretty bummed it didn't extend my life bar. Banjo-Tooie was so much easier, but you had 10 units of health instead. It should've been the opposite.

[Anonymous No.10817291]

WHAT THE GODDAMN HELL WAS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE DAMN IT

[Anonymous No.10817367]

>>10817291
A way to access the top of the tower in Tooie, but it was cut. We can now only speculate about what was supposed to be up there. Stop and Swap? Brentilda? Absolutely nothing?