/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10761332]

Defend grinding as a mechanic. (You can't)

[Anonymous No.10761335]

It's ludo narrative harmony.

[Anonymous No.10761341]

>>10761332
I recognize that port. There be an elf village yonder south of there. I hear the elf prince is cursed with an eternal slumber

[Anonymous No.10761342]

>>10761332
Its fine if you think of rpgs as virtual pet simulation. You are guiding your lil nigs like an all seeing God. Solo party games like Dragon Warrior 1 really emphasize this viewpoint.

[Anonymous No.10761410]

/v/ tier thread

[Anonymous No.10761553]

>>10761332
filtered from some of the greatest stories of our time because you actually have to play the game for more than 5 minutes before the next story beat. mouth breathing retards like you are the reason games let you golden tanooki suit your way to the end now.

[Anonymous No.10761563]

>>10761553
>some of the greatest stories of our time
read a book

[Anonymous No.10761564]

>>10761553
you've never heard of books, or even movies?

[Anonymous No.10761568]

>>10761553
>some of the greatest stories of our time
t. retard

[Anonymous No.10761571]

>>10761332
it's one component of systems of automatic difficulty scaling that can work pretty well. it's rare that you'll need to go out of your way to grind. i've often fled most battles to keep the difficulty higher, so i'm forced to engage with all the game's mechanics

[Anonymous No.10761579]

>>10761332
If you had to grind, you got filtered.
It's literally there so you can adjust the difficulty.
The cost: your time.
tl;dr GET GOOD

[Anonymous No.10761581]

>>10761332
A game should be fun, even when you’re just grinding. If it’s not, the core progression system isn’t good enough.

[Anonymous No.10761590]

>>10761563
>>10761564
>>10761568

the best rpgs have amazing stories comparable to the best books or movies or plays. i didnt realize that was such a controversial stance to take, do you people even like video games?

[Anonymous No.10761596]

>>10761590
The best video game stories are regularly mogged by books from random literal who authors.

[Anonymous No.10761603]

Defend not being allowed to win the game just by pressing a button once. (You can't)

[Anonymous No.10761607]

>>10761596

you just sound like a smug pseudointellectual faggot

>i read shitty books nobody has ever heard of

im so impressed

[Anonymous No.10761609]

>>10761607
If you haven’t heard about them then it’s your problem. Read more books.

[Anonymous No.10761610]

>>10761332
There is not a single retro final fantasy where grinding is required to beat the game. The game gives you plenty of battles to gain exp just by proceeding through the game normally. Defend your lack of skill and stop deflecting your retardation onto the games
>b-b-but muh Gil/AP
Skill issue
>b-b-but blue magic
Not required and not needed. Skill issue

[Anonymous No.10761618]

>>10761579
>>10761610
Lmao you edgy samefag bitch. Post video proof of you walking straight through the game without stopping for literally anything other than towns to buy shit. Go on. The absolute limit of how far you'll get, no matter how good you think you are at a game that uses RNG for what enemies spawn in and how often, is the Marsh Cave. Piscodemons will absolutely fucking body you. Grinding is necessary on some level. If you think the devs in 1987 didn't fully intend and expect for you to grind, you are an absolute fucking retard and know nothing about how NES games were made.

[Anonymous No.10761624]

>>10761332
how else would you get money for armor?

[Anonymous No.10761627]

>>10761553
>greatest stories
you mean for videogame standards right?

[Anonymous No.10761632]

>>10761618
grind for equipment yeah but if you are grinding for levels then you are retarded

[Anonymous No.10761641]

>>10761632
It's the same fucking thing, you ignorant fucking shitpenis. You're grinding no matter what. Why does it matter whether it's for gil or levels when it gives you the same result and you're doing the same thing? You lose, faggot. You have no argument. Just admit you have to fucking grind.

[Anonymous No.10761645]

zoomers be like

Training arc in a movie
>KINOOOOOOO
Training arc in a game
>WTF BRUH WHY DO I HAVE TO PUT IN EFFORT

[Anonymous No.10761650]

>>10761641
i will never admit it just to spite you faggot

[Anonymous No.10761652]

>>10761645
>boomers when the government bans anyone from watching a Rocky film unless they run a cross-country marathon in one week

[Anonymous No.10761654]

RPGs that expect the players to grind have more interesting gameplay, because games that don't expect any grinding whatsoever will scale all the combat to that, like Chrono Cross, which will only result in being able to press X to win.

Of course I don't expect OP to understand this since he's not here to actually discuss the matter and comfront point of views, only to call names anyone who disagrees with him and dismiss any arguement. It really sounds like he got mad he couldn't just go through an old RPG without thinking like modern RPGs allow him, starting crying, and now this thread is some sort of attempt at validation to tell himself it's the games which are "objectively" bad because that's easier to do than turning on your brain when playing a game.

[Anonymous No.10761656]

>>10761332
Just cause you were too retarded to explore dungeons by yourself at normal levels and had to look up a GameFAQs guide that tells you to grind 5 levels every new town doesn't mean everybody is.

[Anonymous No.10761667]

>>10761641
>he doesnt know you can sell your old shit to buy new armor and weapons

[Anonymous No.10761669]

>>10761332
Work well if it a punishment for being poor at the game or being impatient and not exploring enough.

[Anonymous No.10761670]

>>10761332
If grinding is necessary in a game that just means the level curve is too harsh.

[Anonymous No.10761671]

It's relaxing.

[Anonymous No.10761672]

>>10761654
>because games that don't expect any grinding whatsoever will scale all the combat to that, like Chrono Cross, which will only result in being able to press X to win.
Nigger, that game is 25 years old. RPGs and games in general have come a long way and are a lot more sophisticated these days when it comes to scaling combat and having automatic difficulty adjustment. Your beloved 80s JRPG didn't have that sophistication so yes, it's pretty antiquated. Like lives and score systems.

I think we need a new /vr/ for neanderthals like you who enjoy banging your heads on rocks, instead of people like us who grew up with superior 6th gen design being stuck with you.
>>10761667
Still waiting on that video. Oh wait, it doesn't exist. Because you can't do it. No matter what, you will not be able to play FF1 NES to completion without grinding to some extent. It is impossible. Literally, objectively, scientifically impossible.

[Anonymous No.10761679]

>>10761332
Training is an organic part of the hero's journey, and grinding can take many forms, like more varied dungeon dives and such that serve to flesh out the rest of your heroic deeds. That being said, yeah most don't do that and grinding ends up being a tedium check more than anything, and tedium checks are always gay.

[Anonymous No.10761681]

>>10761672
cant hear your faggotry over me playing final fantasy 5 and not grinding once

[Anonymous No.10761683]

>>10761672
say you are right about grinding (which you are not), so what? you can just not play the game if it bothers you that much, i know crazy fucking idea

[Anonymous No.10761689]

>>10761672
>Still waiting on that video.
bruh, I can't make a whole video of me making the game in 5 minutes. I played dawn of souls and didn't have to grind, does that count?
>to some extent
The question is, to what extent? 1% of the entire game you stop for 5 minutes to catch up to navigate marsh cave better and that's it?

[Anonymous No.10761701]

>>10761672
>the sounds of someone who has been filtered.

[Anonymous No.10761704]

>>10761332
It's a good substitute for work

[Anonymous No.10761714]

>>10761672
> these days when it comes to scaling combat and having automatic difficulty adjustment.

I don't believe there is a single popular modern RPG (saying popular to compare what's comparable to FF1) which will have difficulty as demanding as 80s RPGs, the proof being, you think FF1 is impossible to complete without grinding, which shows how low your standards is in the matter.

The thing is, out of all NES/FC RPGs, FF1 is one of the games that requires the least grinding, it is very much possible to beat it without grinding whatsoever and you'd only grind if you play with a really shitty party like 3 Thiefs or something, or because you're still leanring the game and need to experiment with different mechanics. FF1 is one of the most "balanced" jRPGs ever made, providing adequate difficulty without needing to grind

>>10761701
It does, and the problem is different expectations. People these days are used to turning their brain off when playing an RPG, they think dying once means the game is badly designed, they think they're supposed to just spam attack to win and therefore if they can't do that, they think they're supposed to explore the entirety of a dungeon blind in one go without running out of ressources, they think they're supposed to grind until they can.
Of course as another anon pointed out, it doesn't help that FAQs for old RPGs were all written by autists who would needlessly grind for hours on end, most of the time using savestates and fast forward, just because they could, and recommend others to do the same. So when someone like OP gets stuck on something and checks an old guide he's like "I need to be level 25?! But that's like 8 hours of grinding!" rather than being given the proper tools to beat the game

[Anonymous No.10761721]

It is annoying yes but now with Emulators you can change the speed to make it faster or listen to music while you Grind

[Anonymous No.10761728]

>>10761721
i never speed up anything on emulators, i want it to be as close to the original experience as posible, i just listen to something if i ever need to grind

[Anonymous No.10761743]

>>10761672
>instead of people like us who grew up with superior 6th gen design being stuck with you.
I want to play a game, not watch a movie.

[Anonymous No.10761769]

>>10761728
Who Cares? if you had the option why not?

[Anonymous No.10761781]

>>10761769
The same reason you don't speed up a video. The text goes blksjflglk and my avatar goes lkjagk then all of sudden is on the other side the world. It's annoying and ruins immersion.

[Anonymous No.10761784]

the sound*

[Anonymous No.10761791]

I can defend it, but only in the context of its time: it was to pad the game out to make it feel longer than it really was; a pretty cheap thing to do, and would never fly today, but there was only so much you could fit on a NES cart. Players expected RPGs to last a while.

[Anonymous No.10761794]

>>10761791
that game doesn't even fucking have grinding retard

[Anonymous No.10761795]

>>10761781
But is only for the battles stop being autistic

[Anonymous No.10761805]

>>10761791
>and would never fly today
Openworlds are padded to hell. In fact, padding is the only thing they provided.

[Anonymous No.10761809]

>>10761671
Turn down the TV volume and put your fav album and grinding becomes the comfiest shit ever.

[Anonymous No.10761817]

>>10761332
For someone complaining about grinding, you sure have no problem spending time writing walls of text arguing about games that don't require it. Do you just like the attention or...?

[Anonymous No.10761823]

>>10761332
The ideal balance for an RPG is that you don't have to do any grinding at all. Either the mandatory encounters or fun sidequests should be enough to stand a chance of beating a boss.
Having grinding as an optional crutch for bad players is fine in those circumstances.
If you are forced to grind to have a chance of beating the game then that isn't fun.

[Anonymous No.10761842]

>>10761332
Name 1 game that has "grinding as a mechanic"

[Anonymous No.10761865]

>>10761728
If you play on an emulator then you can easily edit your exp and money directly so why grind?

[Anonymous No.10761912]

>>10761645
Hollywood directors wisely decide to only insert brief training montages instead of showing us the entire thing because then it would become a slog.
You only see the hero running, skipping rope and hitting the sandbag for 5 minutes, grinding in RPGs can take HOURS, it's not remotely equivalent.

[Anonymous No.10761930]

>>10761590
Such as?

[Anonymous No.10761934]

>>10761332
Grinding is peak comfy if you're an OCD number counting autist.

[Anonymous No.10762112]

>>10761332
Grinding isn't a mechanic, it's a cope. You're intended to just play through normally and levels are incidental.

[Anonymous No.10762124]

>>10761335
It's the opposite of that.
>I can't kill God
>Guess I'll reload and go walk around on another continent and randomly kill a bunch of wild animals first, during the climax of the story while God is completing his plans to destroy the planet or whatever
>I killed 17 animals which makes me strong enough to kill God now

[Anonymous No.10762130]

>>10761590
>i didnt realize that was such a controversial stance to take, do you people even like video games?
theyre ex-gamergaters and/or people made insecure by /lit/ tourists

[Anonymous No.10762135]

>>10761609
cop out

[Anonymous No.10762137]

>>10761553
fifth reply to say
>greatest stories of our time

[Anonymous No.10762145]

>>10762130
also this board in particular is full of "gameplay first" fisher price collectors who think alien soldier or whatever the shit is the peak of the medium

[Anonymous No.10762146]

>>10762130
g*mers don't read, so g*me studios can steal anything from any book that hasn't been adapted to screen or panel

[Anonymous No.10762151]

>>10762146
why are you here?
>g*mers don't read
many humanities MAs/PhDs i know are gamers lol. you don't know what the fuck you're talkinv about, you're just some insecure netizen that got their humanities education from /lit/

[Anonymous No.10762159]

>>10761553
The only game that qualifies as among "the greatest stories of our time" is Disco Elysium which has no grinding.

[Anonymous No.10762472]

>>10762159
of course a faggot like you would like that game

[Anonymous No.10762476]

>>10761865
yeah and while we are at why play the game at all just watch the ending on youtube right?
come on anon where is the fun in that?

[Anonymous No.10762480]

>>10761809
depends on the game though, i love the music of final fantasy 5, usually i lowed to volume to the point where it still audible and then put one headphone on and listen to some music or listen to a podcast or maybe watch always sunny

[Anonymous No.10762482]

>>10761332
Only autists grind. Just play the game normally.

[Anonymous No.10762484]

>>10761791
i guess you havent played modern open world games, the open world itself is the padding now

[Anonymous No.10762485]

>>10761769
sure if you want to do it then why not, but i personally dont like to use it

[Anonymous No.10762489]

>>10761671
damn right

[Anonymous No.10762514]

>>10761912
This kino is basically 90% training montage

[Anonymous No.10762523]

/vr/ is a niche subboard from a niche mainboard on a niche website and people still come here to act like contrarians. You even have to enter a fucking captcha to post and people will still take all that time to exclaim:
>games are actually le bad!

noone takes you seriously

[Anonymous No.10762540]

>>10762523
yeah it fucking sucks how you rarely can have a good thread about any game withouth some faggot sperging out about how the games that everybody liked and still like werent actually good, especially if its an n64 game, that console causes ungodly ammounts of seething in this board for some reason

[Anonymous No.10762541]

>>10762523
It has always been that way, mostly Trigger fanboys embarrassing themselves

>You even have to enter a fucking captcha to post
heh

[Anonymous No.10762543]

>>10761332
Most games don't require grinding and learning to beat bosses without grinding is fun.
When grinding is required you can watch/listen to other stuff while you do it and that's fun too.

[Anonymous No.10762547]

>>10761842
Digimon World

[Anonymous No.10762556]

>>10761618
You want me to post a 40 hour video just for you? Play the game you retard. Use buffs, retard. Use fucking status ailments, retard. You don’t need to grind. Did you know that weapons in final fantasy also cast spells, retard?
> DURR U R EDGEEY CUZ U DONT GRIND!!1
Skill issue

[Anonymous No.10762558]

>>10762124
There is nothing wrong about that, it's training. Looks like modern gaming has taught you that a 12 year old kid who just picked up a weapon for the first time should be equally strong against god than a trained warrior with 500 confirmed kills

[Anonymous No.10762585]

It's fun and gives you something easy and repeatable to work towards a clear goal.

[Anonymous No.10762589]

>>10761689
>I played dawn of souls and didn't have to grind, does that count?
actually no because dawn of souls nerfs the fuck out of the difficulty to the point where yeah, you can just walk right through the game and effortlessly wreck everything without ever having to grind levels or currency

[Anonymous No.10762593]

>>10762523
>people still come here to act like contrarians
likely refugees from /v/ posting here because they got janny'd

[Anonymous No.10762604]

>spam attack button mindlessly with fast forward on
>don't even select targets properly so half the times half of the party hits air
>OMG I'M DEAD
>clearly I wasn't doing anything wrong since I was playing just like I was playing all the recent FFs
>This clearly means the game wants me to grind 10 lvls so that my efficient tactic can prevail

This is how I picture people who complain about grind in FF1

[Anonymous No.10762607]

>>10762558
I think you're missing the point. Killing random wild animals doesn't somehow make you better at killing God. And you wouldn't do training right in between pivotal story moments.

[Anonymous No.10762640]

>>10761553
The people shitting on you are the kind of people who are not capable of thinking about abstract concepts without words in their mind. They lack both imagination and inner monologues. We all know that vidya as a story telling medium is limited due to memory constraints (at least back in the day), and these npcs are not capable of extrapolating and seeing the bigger picture. It is quite sad really.

[Anonymous No.10762648]

>>10762607
>Killing random wild animals doesn't somehow make you better at killing God.

That's like saying training to run doesn't make you a better football player.
Also for one thing in RPGs they're not "wild animals", they're ferocious monsters out to kill you. If it feels like your characters are just killing defenseless rabbits for no reason then you're playing a bad game. But even in the case of hunting defenseless rabbits, you're building up stamina, muscle, force your psyche to be in fighting mode, and build experience/mastery of your weapon usage, etc this and more is what experience represents in RPGs. Someone who's killed 100 defenseless rabbits will be better at killing a boar charging his way than someone who didn't for several reasons. And again, unless the game is shit, they're not defenseless rabbits.

[Anonymous No.10762681]

mario bros is better than this shit

[Anonymous No.10762693]

The wheels on the bus is better than this shit

[Anonymous No.10762702]

>>10761332
Vast majority of the time, people grind because they don't use or understand the mechanics of said game.

[Anonymous No.10762730]

>the princess was in another castle
HOLY FUCKING SHIT NINTENDO DID IT AGAIN

[Anonymous No.10762934]

>>10761332
The alternative are either a perfectly linear game, to allow perfect scaling, or a game that scales around you, what makes of leveling pointless.

[Anonymous No.10762940]

>>10762159
Which isnt even a RPG, let alone an RPG.

[Anonymous No.10762941]

>>10761332
I don’t have to

[Anonymous No.10762991]

>>10762556
FF1 doesn't take 40 hours to beat if you don't grind. It would take you about 3-4 hours. Unfortunately for you, you're a retard and it can't be done. You will get gameovers or have to leave dungeons to heal or make multiple trips. You can't make a straight shot through the game without fighting random encounters and grinding. Not even speedrunners can beat the game without grinding unless they use RNG manipulation to abuse things like insta-death item and spell chances to work 100% of the time.

[Anonymous No.10763003]

>>10762991
>You can't make a straight shot through the game without fighting random encounters and grinding.
Why isnt this game a walking simulator with optional combat? What a retarded claim. Have you ever played a good RPG in your life? Slow progress through parient Dungeon crawling is How dungeons should be

[Anonymous No.10763004]

>>10763003
You are stupid and can't seem to read.

[Anonymous No.10763005]

How many retro RPG's actually make grinding the intended part of the game past I wanna say Dragon Quest 1? After that grinding was something developers tried to keep to an absolute minimum, and when it does happen it's near the end where they literally ran out of time to balance the difficulty and thought to themselves "Well, they'll just grind anyways to beat it, we already balanced the most important parts of the game." i.e. Rhone in DQ2, Infini in Megami Tensei, Crystal Tower in FF3, Mt. Itoi in Mother, etc

[Anonymous No.10763018]

>>10763005
A game with no grinding is either a boring linear story driven game or a game that scaler around the player, making of leveling pointless.
The game can attempt to scale levels in a way that the grinding happens naturally through the exploration of dungeons, but even then, some grinding will still be necessary, as in free roaming games the scaling cant ever be perfect.

[Anonymous No.10763023]

>>10763005
Most modern RPGs use basic math and calculations to derive an expected level based on encounter rates, average experience in the area, and that area's boss level or whatever. Pretty simple. They didn't have that back then. Also, the level of skill of gamers is a lot higher now. It manifests in different ways. When I was a kid in the 90's, me and my friends ran from a ton of random encounters. We stopped doing that as teenagers. It's a factor in why those games seemed harder to me as a kid. I was chronically underleveled from running so much. That kind of behavior from players is a lot less common now and developers do much better math to plan out not needing to grind.

[Anonymous No.10763054]

>>10761332
I support grinding in FF1. Most of the battles are fucking annoying so I prefer to grind on monsters that I can slaughter easily instead of wasting my time against retards that poison, sleep, paralyze and just run from those.

[Anonymous No.10763070]

>>10761332
at least in terms of old JRPGs game design, idk how you could even avoid grinding in games like that

you need some way to not only gatekeep progress, but also give the player a sense of progression
how tf are you gonna do that other than gradually inflating your, and your enemies, numbers?
>bro lik bro just turn it into an action game
k
have fun trying to fit the rest of an RPG into that cart
retard

[Anonymous No.10763102]

>>10763005
>How many retro RPG's actually make grinding the intended part of the game past I wanna say Dragon Quest 1?
DQ1 isnt even that grindy man
i just replayed the GBC one last month and the only "grind" i did wasnt for exp, but beating up goldmans for some extra cash to get the last 2000 or so gold i needed to buy the magic armor. took like 20mins
once you get your healing and utility spells, which youll get just from wandering around, most of the big leaps forward are from gear
whats +2 HP gonna do when i already have >100HP?
fuck all, thats what. just go buy urself a bigger sword

overall i think early DQ has the far superior approach to grinding over its contemporaries in FF and phantasy star
in FF or phantasy star, you can go grind mindlessly on low lvl mobs for hrs, or risk/reward and wander into a higher lvl area to speed things up. but if you die, youre fucked: reload a save and start over, losing all progress
.
in DQ you can get away with the same tactic, grinding high lvl mobs, and it doesnt punish you needlessly if you die. just lose some gold
and thats not even bringing up things like metal slimes which were literally designed to mitigate grinding even more. DQ was almost too generous, frankly
DQ also had blisteringly fast battle screens compared to FF
i feel like a lot of the modern animosity towards grinding is actually FFs fault. the NES FFs were like molasses in battle.

[Anonymous No.10763138]

>>10763005
Grinding is the main gameplay of Mamanyonyo. Much of the game's strategic depth is figuring out how to collect resources efficiently. You don't overcome enemies with skill as much as by figuring out how to get to a higher level than them as fast and as easily as possible.
Mamanyonyo is actually the first gacha RPG in history. It invented the concept of collecting gems which you trade in for a random character. It lacks the predatory elements of the genre (doubling up characters, needing to play every day, microtransactions) that were added by later titles.
Although gaming would probably be in a much better place if it had never been made, I think it's a fine game for what it is.

I would also argue Disgaea, as I've found that if you just try to play the main story stages in order you end up very underleveled. I always end up needing to replay earlier stages or raid the Item World. That could just come down to my skill as a player though.

[Anonymous No.10763153]

>>10761809
I listened to a lot of Opie and Anthony while grinding on the NES Dragon Quest games. It was very comfy.

[Anonymous No.10763156]

>>10763102
>DQ1 isnt even that grindy man
The remakes trim a lot of the fat and turns a normally 10-15+ hour game into 3-5 hours. I had the NES version in mind when I wrote that post.
The original Dragon Quest is very intentionally designed to be a game where you run around an area for 30 minutes slapping the same monsters until you're strong enough to handle the next batch of monsters without immediately eating shit. It can take thousands of Experience points to hit the next level when enemies drop 10-30 EXP at best and Metal Slimes only give about a hundred. You have to be at least Level 18 to handle the final boss when you'll probably reach endgame at Level 14, because the last boss can kill you in 3 hits and you NEED the Healmore spell to stand a chance, and even that can turn into a dice roll depending on whether or not the boss wants to hit you for 15 damage or 40+ damage. You may even end up doing more grinding just to increase HP and MP and just barely tip the battle more in your favor.

[Anonymous No.10763167]

>>10763102
>DQ1 isnt even that grindy man i just replayed the GBC one last month
The GBC version increases the experience and gold you get from enemies. Grinding was more prominent in the Famicom and NES versions.
I agree with your points about Metal Slmies etc., they're quite notable considering when the game was made.

[Anonymous No.10763238]

>>10763156
>You have to be at least Level 18 to handle the final boss
Im no DQ expert but I think beating the final boss at level 17 would take like 100+ hours on average. Its extremely unlikely. I wouldn't even bother at 18. Realistically you aren't beating that game without grinding.

[Anonymous No.10763249]

>>10763238
Huh no, it only takes a couple of attempts as long as you get to him with full hp/mp

Some people have done it at lvl 17 too, which is the minimum possible really because that's when you learn Healmore

[Anonymous No.10763260]

>>10763249
>as long as you get to him with full hp/mp
diff fag, but lol, good luck with that
that last dungeon is brutal. even with the magic armor healing off all those poison/trap tiles, youre just not going to be able to reliably run from all those late game mobs without enough AGI
and you def dont have enough AGI by lvl17

[Anonymous No.10763270]

>>10763260
Go straight to the demon lord, run from everything, and heal with herbs when they get a shot at you (herbs won't matter in the final fight anyway), you may not succeed on your first attempt but it's definitely possible at lvl 18 because many people have done it.

[Anonymous No.10763285]

>>10763270
i dont doubt its possible. really all you need is enough MP to spam healmore

im just saying unless youre doin some meta shit, like using a certain name with high AGI bonuses, and savescumming for better encounter luck, youre gonna have a tough time even getting to the throne without at least being down some MP

[Anonymous No.10763287]

>>10762991
Please do not project your lack of skills onto others. Git gud instead of whining on an anime image board, retard.

[Anonymous No.10763291]

>>10761842
Final Fantasy 2's whole game is grinding

[Anonymous No.10763331]

>>10763156
>>10763249
>Some people have done it at lvl 17 too
>when you'll probably reach endgame at Level 14
Stop watching RNG manipulated speedruns you dumbshoe. Where you are literally watching 1/200 of the actual output, and the runners is going to reset at ALL failure points.
Where you are literally going for names with intentional optimal stat spreads.

DQ is popular because there is no twist: You get told to go and shank the final boss, and you can see the final dungeon from the first world map screen.
There is no question on what you are doing, the question is HOW you are doing it. And very few games come close.
Then it gets a sequel where the basic combat is improved a lot.
And it then gets another sequel where you get really fancy party building.
And another one with a really wacky multi part story.

[Anonymous No.10763395]

>>10763287
Trolling retard. I'm not even the same poster as the original guy. I just know enough about FF1 that I know it can't be beaten without grinding. It's not a matter of "git gud," the game's math makes it impossible outside of TASing or RNG manipulation.

[Anonymous No.10763414]

PSO is my best defense against OP’s argument.

[Anonymous No.10763418]

>>10761590
Only gameplay matters

[Anonymous No.10763426]

>>10761590
Examples being?

[Anonymous No.10763463]

>>10763395
Pure cope. Stop trolling you fucking retard. Spend your time playing the game instead of crying your head out on 4chan

[Anonymous No.10763479]

>>10761332
Defend making platform jumps difficult so that you have to try over and over again to make it. (You can't)

[Anonymous No.10763480]

>>10761332
I grinded my dick in your mom until i cummed

[Anonymous No.10763487]

>>10761590
>the best rpgs have amazing stories comparable to the best books or movies or plays

fucking lol

[Anonymous No.10763490]

>>10761332
I'm a mechanic and I don't know which wrench size or bolts you want me to screw or loosen. what does being a mechanic have to do with grinding? Oh yeah I do use a grinder at work but so what?

[Anonymous No.10763513]

>>10763463
>Baiting and trolling this weak
Imagine spending your time merely pretending to be retarded on the internet.

[Anonymous No.10763534]

>>10761553
>>10762640
>>10761590
You can have stories in video games, you shouldn't neglect gameplay for the sake of "deep naratives" or whatever the fuck. That's just pure laziness.

[Anonymous No.10763546]

>>10761332
It can help with pacing.
It allows players workarounds to difficult problems should they put in the extra work.
Adds length to the game.
It helps sell that you are inexperienced adventurers in a dangerous world. (Especially true in something like Mother 1)

And I've never played a game where you had to grind for long at all. DQ1 has several parts where you need to grind, but it's completely tolerable. Same with Mother 1.

[Anonymous No.10763550]

>>10763534
when did either of them say this

[Anonymous No.10763551]

>>10763550
Good. Don't.

[Anonymous No.10763554]

>>10763490
Smartass.

[Anonymous No.10763647]

Grinding past like, the very first shitty JRPGs ever is completely unnecessary and only absolute dumbasses need to do it to beat any given game.

A lot of the fun of classic JRPGs lies in tackling the trickier battles with limited resources. As noted elsewhere in this thread, games tended to be balanced just about right when you fought every encounter you ran into while you progressed through dungeons. Not being overlevelled also meant that random encounters were not the slog they tend to be in more modern games where you can knock them over without a smidge of tactics, a lot of mobs back in the day could actually put you in some tight situations and require nursing your party back up with precious resources you were trying to save for the boss.

>>10761590
Unfortunately this board has been invaded by a bunch of faggots who are ashamed of video games as a hobby yet do nothing but talk about them all day anyways. It's best to ignore them as much as you can.

[Anonymous No.10763694]

>>10762648
nta, additionally
>If it feels like your characters are just killing defenseless rabbits for no reason then you're playing a bad game.
More often than not if this is happening it's because you're overleveled for the area you're grinding in. To put it another way, grinding is a built in difficulty setting. You can train and be sufficiently prepared or you can charge ahead and see how well you do. I don't think I've seen anyone charge blindly into danger without immediately retreating upon the first hard encounter, but still.

[Anonymous No.10763696]

Finding grinding fun is an enlightened but autistic and stupid opinion.

[Anonymous No.10763707]

It is a completely unproductive argument to have because RPG haters will just redefine "grinding" to mean whatever they want it to mean.

[Anonymous No.10763741]

>>10761332
After playing a few older jrpgs where you'd do the occasional grind, I started to enjoy looking for ways to grind faster/more efficiently.

[Anonymous No.10763762]

>>10763513
You’re the retard pretending you have to aimlessly grind to beat a game that 7 year old jap kids beat after school. Just admit you fucking suck. The game has elemental weaknesses, provides you with buffs, and has item magic. You’re just a fucking brainless caveman that mashes the Attack command after grinding 20 levels over the enemy level.

[Anonymous No.10763880]

>>10763762
Anon, you're an idiot. Like a genuine moron. I don't think you even know how to read since you just keep missing the point and repeating your completely retarded tough guy speech to someone who is better at video games than you are.

You quite literally cannot beat FF1 if you never grind. Whether that's getting hurt, leaving dungeons, and coming back and trying again with stronger characters and treasure, or just fighting extra monsters, you HAVE to do it to beat the game. If you only strictly fought the necessary random encounters on your way to storyline objectives and never left, regrouped, or healed(aka grind), you can't beat the game that way. It's not possible.

You legitimately have no clue what you're talking about and you are some scrub out of your depth on this topic just spouting git gud nonsense where it doesn't apply. You're a dumbass. If you think it is possible to do this, then go ahead and try to do it and record yourself. No extra encounters, no detouring for pointless chests for extra experience, no leaving a dungeon and resting at an inn and then tackling it again. No taking inefficient routes to story objectives for extra encounters. No endless savescumming to brute force a win with death weapons. No glitches, RNG manipulation, or TASing. Go straight from one story objective to the next and only fight the random encounters you get going to each of these objectives.

Let me know when you finish that run, because it will be never. You utter dipshit retard.

[Anonymous No.10763891]

>>10763880
>you literally cannot beat FF1 if you never gr-ACK!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHBSw1cDpC4

[Anonymous No.10763905]

>>10763891
>posts the pixel remaster
Absolute fucking moron.

[Anonymous No.10763934]

>>10761332
I've said this a million times but it won't get through thick skulls like OP's: RPGs as a genre are for POWER FANTASY! If you are a weak man, a fat man, or any kind of suboptimal man IRL, then you play RPGs to escape from reality and become a strong man who can kick God's ass. But it's neither fun nor rewarding to just be given these powers. You have to earn the right to dominate your enemies, and to do this you must GRIND. Grinding is akin to the 80s training montage. If you don't like grinding, you don't like 80s movies and you don't like shounen manga. Forunately it is 2024 and the mainstream says it's okay to be a gaylord so you lucked out. But for us straight men, we crave grinding in RPGs.

I don't want to think, I don't want to use reflexes. I just want to mindlessly bonk monsters on the head with a club until I'm so strong that I can decimate the entire Greek pantheon with a wave of my hand. If you can't understand this, if your puny brain doesn't grasp the spiritual nuance required to enjoy RPGs and grinding and POWER FANTASY, then by all means keep playing chess or halo or whatever the kids enjoy nowadays while I max out my stats in Dragon Quest VIII with seed grinding and OBLITERATE Dhoulmagus and Rhapthorne and the Dragovian Trials.

[Anonymous No.10763972]

>>10763880
> Whether that's getting hurt, leaving dungeons, and coming back and trying again
That is NOT GRINDING you stupid dipshit cock sucker. THATS PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME
Grinding is literally intentionally stopping what you are doing to brainlessly and intentionally raise your levels because you are too much of a retard to use magic and want to mash the “A” button. Grinding is mindless beating up goblins for Gil because you think you need to have 100x of every consumable and the most expensive armor.
As others have told you, you fucking retard, THERES ENOUGH RANDOM BATTLES IN THE GAME FOR YOU TO PROGRESS WITHOUT GRINDING. You don’t even know what grinding is.
Not only are you retarded, but you are gay. A gay, cocksucking, retard you are.

[Anonymous No.10763985]

>>10761332
you're bad at the genre
use buffs retard

[Anonymous No.10763991]

>>10763972
>That is NOT GRINDING you stupid dipshit cock sucker. THATS PLAYING THE FUCKING GAME
Oh so you're just a big fucking retard. That's the problem. See, everyone else refers to the act of repeatedly healing up and backtracking and doing the same dungeon multiple times grinding. Apparently you are a big time doofus and magically think that doesn't count for some reason.

You agree with me, you're just extremely stupid and don't know it. To you, it's only grinding if you literally sit outside of town smacking overworld enemies over and over again, but if you redo the same dungeon multiple times and have to backtrack through it just to heal and gain enough strength to beat the boss, that's not grinding to you for some unknown reason. Maybe you should actually think through this topic some more rather than being an idiot. Just a thought.

Also, I'm not the same anon you originally replied to. I'm someone else that realized you're a complete idiot. The original guy you responded to you quite literally said the same thing and you stupidly misunderstood him like a total idiot because you can't fucking read. You were too busy giving your braindead "skill issue" speeches.

[Anonymous No.10764006]

>>10763991
If you’re getting party wiped in dungeons you’re literally suffering from a skill issue and you can’t be helped. Once maybe, but if you’re doing it over and fucking over you have a SKILL ISSUE. Just admit you mash attack

[Anonymous No.10764010]

>>10761618
Hey bro, I think you still owe that anon $50.
>>>/vg/468825924

[Anonymous No.10764017]

>>10764006
>If you’re getting party wiped in dungeons you’re literally suffering from a skill issue and you can’t be helped.
Hilarious since the best FF1 speedrunners regularly experience party wipes and gameovers at critical junctures in dungeons. You sure do talk big for someone with no skills and obviously no experience.

I would also fully expect someone playing FF1 on the NES blind with no prior knowledge of the game to wipe in dungeons, yes. But you are clearly speaking as some dipshit applying years of internet based guide knowledge to the game and then idiotically chastising other players playing it blind for not knowing that information. Then stupidly assert that grinding isn't necessary to beat the game when it objectively is necessary even according to its best players.

You have no clue what you're talking about and you can shut up now. Either way, I won't be listening to you.

[Anonymous No.10764019]

>>10763426
Hey look.
The normie answer, as requested.
Only contrarians like yourself try to shit on it.
So go on, let's have it.

[Anonymous No.10764028]

>>10764017
Why do you keep bringing up speed runners as if it proves a point? They intentionally play the game as gimped as possible because they are trying to beat the game FAST you fucking idiot. Play the game normally and you will have enough exp and money. Jesus Christ you are a fucking retard

[Anonymous No.10764029]

>>10761332
What's bad about training my characters so they're stronger and more prepared for the challenges ahead?
'Preparation' is a great complement to 'strategy' and RPGs which wield it well are kino.

[Anonymous No.10764031]

>>10761701
>white knight
uh yikes
>protection from black
uh double yikes
Problematic cards like this have no place in MtG, it hurts bipoc queer folx

[Anonymous No.10764036]

>>10764028
Wow that's incredible. They play the game fast and yet they regularly die. How is that possible since it's so easy that you don't even need to grind? Oh wait, they DO grind. They specifically grind their characters and they STILL die! SKILL ISSUE! What a bunch of unskilled clowns!

If you weren't stupid, you wouldn't have walked right into that fucking trap and destroyed your entire own argument, dumbass. Good job. Goodnight.

[Anonymous No.10764038]

>>10764019
Dostoyevsky has been real quiet ever since this dropped.

[Anonymous No.10764041]

>>10764036
Holy shit you fucking idiot they literally run from random battles and power level themselves for a higher exp gain from higher level monsters. You’re a fucking idiot

[Anonymous No.10764045]

>>10761332
I like it.

[Anonymous No.10764048]

>>10764041
They literally run from low EXP battles and battles that can take a long time/battles where they can die so they can grind on the best EXP monsters and gain extra levels faster, idiot. You'd get less exp than an average speedrunner if you didn't grind at all. They quite literally grind in a spot where they only encounter 1 monster that has tons of exp and its a guaranteed encounter they can spam over and over with just one step.

You have no clue what you're talking about and I was generous enough to reply to you TWICE more even after I promised I wouldn't respond to your retarded ass again, but you just insist on these feeble objections. But for real, no more (You)'s no matter what stupid bullshit whining you bring up past this point. You OBJECTIVELY have to grind to beat FF1 on the NES. OP was correct about that and anyone claiming otherwise is an ignorant retard like (You).

[Anonymous No.10764056]

>>10764019
>A man who lies to himself is often the first to take offense. it sometimes feels very good to take offense, doesn't it? And surely he knows that no one has offended him, and that he himself has invented the offense and told lies just for the beauty of it, that he has exaggerated for the sake of effect, that he has picked up on a word and made a mountain out of a pea--he knows all of that, and still he is the first to take offense, he likes feeling offended, it gives him great pleasure, and thus he reaches the point of real hostility...

[Anonymous No.10764058]

>>10764048
Skill issue. Try playing the game instead of mashing attack. Now go cry about it on Reddit.
Faggot

[Anonymous No.10764082]

>>10763991
>To you, it's only grinding if you literally sit outside of town smacking overworld enemies over and over again
NTA but I thought this is what grinding has always meant.

[Anonymous No.10764087]

>>10764056
Oh cut the SHIT.

What you're pretending at is passe, and we all know it.
This is a multi-decade old conversation, and you're not a fucking hatchling.
When you ask for an example, especially on a board with as many tire treads as this one, you're not doing it in good faith.

[Anonymous No.10764115]

>>10764087
And you really think that FF6 rivals the best books ever written? Really? Is that why you have to pretend that it's the "normie answer"? Is that why you have to hide behind a layer of bitterness and feigned apathy?

You and I both know that video games aren't on par with the "best books or movies or plays". Not even close.

If you really, truly believe that there's an rpg that rivals the best literature ever written, make an argument and show some proof instead of getting pissy.

[Anonymous No.10764120]

>>10764115
>And you really think that FF6 rivals the best books ever written?
Yes.
>Really?
Yes.

[Anonymous No.10764123]

>>10764120
And which books do you think it's comparable to? And why do you think FF6 is comparable to them? What does it do as well as these books, and how?

[Anonymous No.10764165]

>>10764123
>And which books do you think it's comparable to?
I dunno, you predictable cunt, whom I called out at minute one, who then acted like I was out of line for doing so, who then gave up the charade soon after. Pick one if you must. I will then say "Yes. FF6 evokes feelings and thought of a depth as much as that book, or perhaps even more." And I'll fucking mean it. You dumb, trite, elitist prick.

[Anonymous No.10764194]

>>10761607
>>10761607
>you just sound like a smug pseudointellectual faggot
Maybe but you too.

Op is more of a faggot than usual. Even kids too young to post here know it's a strategy and the difference between that and a mechanic. What a shit bait thread.

[Anonymous No.10764216]

>>10761332
it's fun. i love to select "attack," "magic," or "item" from the menu. i love to receive gil and/or items alongside exp after the battle.

[Anonymous No.10764246]

>>10764165
>I dunno
No shit, chances are you haven't cracked a book in decades. If you've lived that long. at least.

Go ahead and try to explain to everyone how exactly final fantasy 6 is better than, say, The Brothers Karamazov.

[Anonymous No.10764249]

>>10764246
Had to decimate all the context, did we?
I'd say you disappointed me, but.. How could that be so?

[Anonymous No.10764253]

>>10764249
>IESLB
Done.

[Anonymous No.10764262]

>>10764253
Poor reply.

[Anonymous No.10764315]

>>10763991
>t. only uses a guide or plays the same games over and over
These games are designed for kids to play through once not for sad manchildren to live in.

>>10764165
Admit it. FF6 is the best you got and it isn't even Narnia-tier.

[Anonymous No.10764358]

>>10762145
gameplay first types should really just stick to excel spreadsheets. No pesky graphics or story getting in the way, just pure gameplay

[Anonymous No.10764415]

>>10764358
that's why i play roguelikes. They have no graphics so changes can be implemented as fast as they're coded, no need to wait for artists.

[Anonymous No.10764561]

I think what Ive learned in all my years is it simply makes the game feel more substantial than it really is, and in a good way. Back in the day when emulators were more novel I played through a lot of the RPGs I missed out on with fast forward turned on and I can genuinely say they really fell apart. Getting through them so quickly and leveling up in mere minutes whenever I hit a roadblock just made these games feel unsatisfying and a hell of a lot less cool. Eventually I weened myself off it and started to enjoy them a lot more.

I can understand hating it but unless everything else about the game is just paced immaculately its kind of a necessity. Hell even games that are paced well and largely let you go through them without grinding like Chrono Trigger just feel a bit off to me.

There definitely should be a good middle ground, games with too much grinding do unfortunately exist like most of the Dragon Quest franchise(fuck Dragon Quest I dont care it sucks) but otherwise Ive never minded it and have come around to actually appreciating it.

[Anonymous No.10764586]

Anyone who uses the word "grinding" just for playing the game normally, going through dungeons and having enemy counters, is a total fucking moron who most likely doesn't even enjoy the game he's playing and is only doing playing it because he thinks he has to assimilate culture ASAP as an attempt to validate his shitty opinions.

[Anonymous No.10764590]

>>10764082
Grinding means fighting extra battles to level up your party so you can proceed in the game. Whether you do that in a dungeon or somewhere else is irrelevant. Both are grinding.

[Anonymous No.10764595]

>>10762124
>need to make sure you're prepared for the big climactic battle that the fate of the world rests on
>fight strong monsters to get some idea of what you might be up against, refine your attacks and ensure you're prepared for various eventualities
>unsurprisingly, this makes you better at fighting
Experience isn't just a number, it's a sometimes-weird abstraction of a concept that makes perfect sense.
If a game puts its story and gameplay at odds by expecting you to fuck around for five hours when the planet is supposedly twenty minutes from exploding, that's a design flaw in that specific game. It's not an argument against grinding as a concept.

[Anonymous No.10764596]

[Anonymous No.10764598]

>>10764596
Yes. That includes dungeons, idiot.

[Anonymous No.10764603]

The solution was presented to us decades ago, but JRPG shitters proved they WANT to be able to grind instead of getting good at games.

[Anonymous No.10764613]

>>10763023
>they didn't have basic math and calculations back then
old RPGs could be a bit rough at times but of course they used calculations to derive an expected level

[Anonymous No.10764619]

>>10764586
If you leave a dungeon to repeatedly visit towns to heal, and fight a bunch of monsters and random encounters to and from the dungeon while doing this, you are grinding and just too stupid to realize it because the developers masked that as "normal gameplay" to you. That's like saying DQ1 has no grinding as long as you are always trying to progress through a dungeon while you're playing it. It's impossible TO even need to grind if you count backtracking, leaving and healing from dungeons as not grinding.

[Anonymous No.10764628]

>>10764036
Anon, speedrunners specifically skip standard gameplay and content. The squishiness of that is not indicative of the squishiness of normal, non-grindy progression.

[Anonymous No.10764632]

>>10764628
They skip standard progression and grind levels in experience dense encounters. This is a non-point. They regularly die not because they're speedrunning and just way underleveled, they die because the game is hard and unforgiving even when you do level. Not everyone can use savestates and raise their nose at other people playing the game.

[Anonymous No.10764643]

>>10761553
This.

>>10761332
You're both soul-dead and brain-dead. Not my problem that you can't have a positive experience in a video game.

[Anonymous No.10764668]

>>10764628
>The squishiness of that is not indicative of the squishiness of normal, non-grindy progression.
You literally can't progress in FF1 without some grinding. That's the entire point. If you only did a straight shot through dungeons without leaving, healing, and gaining more levels, and could only fight or run from random encounters you had on the way to necessary treasures/bosses, you couldn't beat the game. You would, in fact, be even lower level than a speedrunner. You are counting grinding in "standard progression" here.

[Anonymous No.10764760]

>>10764668
>You literally can't progress in FF1 without some grinding
Absolutely wrong.
>If you only did a straight shot through dungeons without leaving, healing, and gaining more levels, and could only fight or run from random encounters you had on the way to necessary treasures/bosses, you couldn't beat the game.
Except you can.

[Anonymous No.10764775]

>it's a Western port of a JRPG
>all encounters are harder
>force you to grind more so you can't beat it on a rental

[Anonymous No.10764778]

>>10761607
>reeeeeeeeeeee i dont read dont insult muh dumbed down kidlit u asshole
go watch anime kid

[Anonymous No.10764786]

>>10764778
You Just know the last book this faggot has read is diary of a Wimpy kid when he was 12

[Anonymous No.10764787]

>>10764668
Ever played a Dungeon crawler? Or are linear storygame RPGs all youve ever played?

[Anonymous No.10764791]

>>10764668
There's literally youtube videos of people beating it at level 9 by fleeing from all random encounters.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6948AACC03EE6FD

[Anonymous No.10764801]

>>10764791
>heavily segmented, savescummed, brute forcing
You idiots literally can't read.

[Anonymous No.10764802]

>>10764760
Post proof, then. No RNG manipulation, no TASing, no savescum brute forcing. Just one straight shot through the game with no extra random encounters. I'll continue waiting forever for this to be posted because it doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.10764807]

>>10764802
Post proof it's impossible. Millions of people have beaten it without grinding and you showed ZERO evidence that any grinding is needed.

[Anonymous No.10764810]

>>10764807
>Post proof it's impossible
You are an actual low IQ pinhead.

[Anonymous No.10764816]

>>10764807
>Millions of people have beaten it without grinding
Then show proof of just one. I'll wait. Remember: no extra battles. No repeatedly backtracking and re-entering dungeons. No TASing, no savescumming, no bruteforcing, no inefficient routes for extra fights. All one straight shot.

[Anonymous No.10764824]

>>10764816
Literally google for FF1 longplay or let's play and you will find many. I'm not your personal google.

[Anonymous No.10764828]

>>10764810
>>10764816
The burden of proof is on you.
You made an extraordinary claim (grinding is required) so you need to provide extraordinary evidence.

[Anonymous No.10764837]

>>10764824
>dude just like...google it
It's not my job to provide your proof. If it's that common, you should have no trouble providing an example of it. You can't because literally everyone backtracks out, heals up, and re-enters dungeons when playing the game. AKA they grind through dungeons to beat it. Even the BEST PLAYERS OF FF1 cannot beat it in the manner I described. People who literally play it daily for years on end. For decades on and off, and they can't do it.

They HAVE to resort to some other method to get it done. Bruteforcing and savescumming for optimal levels or lucky boss patterns/random encounters. TASing to achieve the same. RNG manipulation to ensure good outcomes. Grinding to have the necessary damage or healing to realistically progress.

There is not one recorded instance of a legitimate, straight run through FF1 with no grinding or heavily relying on some kind of exploit or abuse mechanic. Because the game is literally DESIGNED to have you grind in it. You guys are just such stubborn boneheaded fucking retards that you want to stick to your "skill issue" and "git gud" narrative that you legitimately can't admit that it can't be done.

[Anonymous No.10764841]

>>10764828
There exists no recorded run where a player completed FF1 without grinding without resorting to some kind of exploitative method(RNG manipulation/TAS/etcetc I've already listed them a million times). That is my proof. I cannot prove a negative you absolutely stupid dipshit. You have to provide proof to the contrary, not me. That's like saying I have to prove leprechauns don't exist. It's not possible to do that. I'm typing to actual mental toddlers here.

It's statistically improbable enough to beat the game without grinding or cheating the run in any way that it is effectively impossible under normal conditions.

[Anonymous No.10764851]

Posting in a tedious thread.

[Anonymous No.10764857]

>>10764841
> I cannot prove a negative you absolutely stupid dipshit
All mechanics of the game and sats are well documented.
You just have to provide a mathematical proof that just one mandatory battle is mathematically impossible to be beaten without having grinded beforehand. Shouldn't be hard if you were right.

[Anonymous No.10764860]

>>10764841
Changing the Topic, what is the problem of grinding nigga? Do you dislike playing the game? Then why are you even playing.
Or to you RPGs are meant to be movie games in which combat is just a coping time

[Anonymous No.10764869]

Grinding is a failsafe for shitters and dev incompetence, but also sometimes you just want to zone out and make number get bigger.

[Anonymous No.10764871]

>>10764857
>All mechanics of the game and sats are well documented.
That's not the issue.

>You just have to provide a mathematical proof that just one mandatory battle is mathematically impossible to be beaten without having grinded beforehand.
I don't need to do that and that isn't my argument. It is mathematically possible to beat every encounter in the game without grinding. We already know this with TASing. This argument from the beginning has specifically barred exploitative measures(as I've already repeated myself about a thousand times) such as TASing, bruteforcing, mass savescumming, or RNG manipulation.

I don't need to provide mathematical proof of it. The fact that no run exists of it is proof enough for my argument.

[Anonymous No.10764876]

>>10764860
I'm not OP. I'm someone else that saw this thread was full of complete retards making dubious claims about a game that they obviously don't understand. Retards that spout "git gud" and "skill issue" and then use TASes and bruteforce savescummed segmented runs as their proof that it's reasonable to complete FF1 without grinding. Complete idiots.

As far as my personal opinion on grinding, I don't mind it as long as it isn't egregious. FF1 is fine imo, since the healing and leaving isn't a huge issue and it doesn't feel excessive. DQ1, however, is excessive. As are MMO's. So I avoid games like that.

[Anonymous No.10764884]

It’s mathematically impossible for OP to not suck a cock everyday. No amount of RNG manipulation or TASing will prevent him from slurping your semen

[Anonymous No.10764885]

>>10761332
I never had to grind in a JRPG for main story. You’re bad at the game.

[Anonymous No.10764913]

>>10764315
Has anyone ever told you you're boring and predictable?

[Anonymous No.10764958]

>>10764876
I agree with you, DQ1 is excessive, but ff1 plays just fine. Reminds me of Elminage Original, a favorite of mine, in which grinding feel like a fully fledged part of the game. After the first dungeon, exploring the others is tough, youre weak and can easily get wiped without a good strategy.
You grind a bit though, exploring the many Dungeons earlier sections, gathering treasures and doing little sidequests, and soon its not as hard. The grinding comes naturally, It feels like a actual objective, and I feel the same playing ff1.

[Anonymous No.10764972]

>>10761590
>the best rpgs have amazing stories comparable to the best books or movies or plays
lol

[Anonymous No.10764993]

>>10761590
>>10764972
It funny thing is that actual /lit/fags always get angry at people who read books for the plot rather than the prose.

[Anonymous No.10764996]

>>10764993
So they read books because they like words? Anonymity truly brings out the worst out of humankind.

[Anonymous No.10765392]

Why do people pretend JRPGs are about grinding when you can beat 99% of them without ever grinding?

[Anonymous No.10765428]

>>10765392
Because OP is a literal retard who doesn’t even know what grinding means

[Anonymous No.10765429]

>>10764619
>>10764598
By your definition all RPGs consist of nothing but grinding; which is obviously not what the word means or else there wouldn't even be a word.

[Anonymous No.10765468]

Jarpiggies don’t know what grinding is. MMO chads eat an entire jarpig’s worth of grinding for breakfast.

[Anonymous No.10765513]

>>10764632
>They skip standard progression and grind levels in experience dense encounters.
They level irregularly, often having long period of being underleveled and even finishing games that way. The difficulty of a speed run is not comparable to the difficulty of normal play, and while grinding may or may not be necessary, this doesn't indicate that.
>>10764668
I can sort of see the point that having to retreat and return multiple times until you're stronger could be considered grinding of a sort, since the natural progression of the game hasn't left you strong enough to beat an area when you encounter it. But normal progression (let's say, clearing each dungeon in one shot, maybe two to account for resource expenditure while getting your bearings) still looks very different from speedrun progression.

[Anonymous No.10765527]

>>10764816
NTA, and I'm with you on the other conditions, but inefficient routes isn't grinding. Getting a few extra battles is normal progression because you didn't take the minimum possible number of steps to your goal isn't grinding. As long as it's not grossly and deliberately inefficient to bypass the other conditions, it should be fine.

[Anonymous No.10765650]

Grinding is deliberately going back and forth in a single place to kill enemies to level up or gain money, it's a menial task and that's why its called grinding. Anything else is playing the game normally.

RPGs are games of managing resources so if you're resource managing then you're playing the game correctly, doesn't matter if you grind or not (is not like it matters if you play the game correctly or not, as long as you're enjoying yourself).

[Anonymous No.10765681]

>(is not like it matters if you play the game correctly or not, as long as you're enjoying yourself).
This is the thinking that lead to the decadence of the west. "Haha theres no right or wrong bro, all that matters is that you feel good, go ahead and cut off your dick, youre totally a woman."
Fucking trannies.

[Anonymous No.10765687]

>>10763138
I hate that art style so much God damn
Westerners would not be forgiven for that low effort slop
This is calarts for weebs

[Anonymous No.10765704]

>>10765392
>>10765428
>>10765650
People always equivocate in discussions about grinding. I've attempted to explain both definition of the term before but all that ever happens is that the retards arguing double down arguing their semantics and half-assed positions proving only that they don't understand how English works.
> Grinding
> 1. Playing through repetitive, low-stakes combat encounters
> 2. Deliberately repeating low-stakes combat encounters for the incremental rewards
Both are valid definitions. Some of you will swear that one or the other is invalid, but you are dumb and wrong. Some of you won't even be able to tell the difference and you're even dumber.

[Anonymous No.10765765]

>>10764913
So you can't offer anything better? That's boring and predictable anon.

[Anonymous No.10765832]

>>10765513
>the natural progression of the game hasn't left you strong enough to beat an area when you encounter it. But normal progression (let's say, clearing each dungeon in one shot

That's an assumption based on a certain type of more modern RPGs though. Dungeon crawlers aren't about clearing the dungeon in one go, and FF1 (OP's pic) isn't either. The normal progression when playing FF1/2 or DQ1/2/3/4 for the first time is that in many cases you will run out of ressources on your first attempt in a dungeon and will not clear it in go, and no, not because the game isn't well balanced or intended the player to grind more before attempting the dungeon, but because it was intended that way, that's was what was expected of RPGing. Even the latest Netflix series about eating monsters while dungeon crawling acknowledges that.

>>10765704
>> 1. Playing through repetitive, low-stakes combat encounters

Playing through Super Mario Bros games normally is full of grinding since all the player is doing when going through the levels is fighting low-stakes enemies for points and repetitively collecting small coins for lives.

[Anonymous No.10765840]

>>10765527
I mostly said it that way to avoid any messy interpretations. If we leave the language vague, someone might deliberately keep detouring for extra levels. If we force a direct route, it avoids that kind of skirting the rules of giving an inch. I agree with you fundamentally that it should be allowed, but if I were actually implementing rules for a kind of submission, I'd have to disallow it on principle. Given that this is a more casual request, it's not like I'm going to stubbornly refuse proof if someone took a wrong corridor or stepped out of line a few times or something.

[Anonymous No.10765846]

>>10761332
so you don't overlevel while you're saving up gold for expensive items, example: in FF1 during the only real difficulty spike where you need to grind (after getting the ship but before going to the Marsh Cave) you're most likely saving up for the Silver Sword and some Level 3/4 spells anyway

[Anonymous No.10765940]

>>10765513
>They level irregularly, often having long period of being underleveled and even finishing games that way.
Yes, but then conversely, they rely on extremely unorthodox and often esoteric tactics to defeat these dungeons and bosses without being the appropriate level by exploiting the game's coding. Something a normal player of the game could not know or do without looking up internet guides or the game's code. The speedrunners play with advantages a normal player could never have. Something that has nothing to do with skill or intelligence, but merely having internet guide knowledge.

The original idiot I was replying to claimed nobody died in dungeons repeatedly but unskilled noobs. He is wrong. Speedrunners may be lower level but they operate at a much higher knowledge than an average player and even they die constantly playing FF1 and it usually isn't because of their low party level, but just bad luck(surprise attacks, stone, paralyze, run fails, instant death attacks). Dying in FF1 is very easy if you aren't using savestates, savescumming, or overleveling and can happen to even the best players.

The real base argument that began this discussion was that OP claimed you can't beat FF1 without grinding, and he is for all intents and purposes correct. A bunch of frothing at the mouth caveman retards claimed it was a skill issue and for him to git gud, that grinding in dungeons doesn't count(lol), and then acted like this guy playing FF1 blind should just know which items are broken like the Bane sword even though you'd have no way of knowing that without a guide. Just complete idiocy.

[Anonymous No.10765948]

>>10761332
>grinding as a mechanic
Wat

[Anonymous No.10766010]

>>10765704
So if I play an action game with a whole bunch of mooks to plow through is that grinding? Because people just want to apply that definition to JRPGs for some reason.

[Anonymous No.10766051]

>>10766010
Don’t even bother. Guy is a clueless aspie

[Anonymous No.10766460]

i just like fighting metal slimes

[Anonymous No.10766517]

>>10765765
FF6 goes toe to toe with any book you can name.
That's the claim made.
Why haven't you brought any heat?

[Anonymous No.10766567]

>>10765832
Obviously, I under-estimated the ability of /vr/ to find stupid things to say.
First, the context is RPGs. If you can't even discern THAT obvious context, there's no way you are smart enough to discern which type of 'grinding' someone is talking about.
> Super Mario Bros games normally is full of grinding since all the player is doing when going through the levels is fighting low-stakes enemies for points and repetitively collecting small coins for lives.
Encounters aren't repetitive since the environment is always different. Rewards don't come from the combat, they are discovered through exploration. Calling goomba stomping "combat" is silly. It's like you tried as hard as possible to misunderstand everything from every possible angle. I'm genuinely impressed at how stupid this reply is.
>>10766010
>So if I play an action game with a whole bunch of mooks to plow through is that grinding. Because people just want to apply that definition to JRPGs for some reason.
The term is generally not used for action games since repetitive physical challenges (reflexes, etc) are different from repetition of turn/decision-based combat. Even if you beat 20 enemies in a row in Final Fight, there's still a chance you'll make a mistake on the 21st and take damage. In a JRPG, if there are 20 encounters between the town and the next boss and every single encounter follows maybe two or three different patterns with a trivial degree of randomness within each one, people will call that grinding(type 1). It's not the best word to use, it would be better if people just called it repetitive combat, but it's frequent enough that it's generally better to just derive the intended meaning from context rather than getting into an argument over semantics.

[Anonymous No.10766572]

>>10766460
Why isn't this slime fleeing when I click on it?

[Anonymous No.10766576]

>>10766567
Lets make things clear, tell us what you mean by grinding. What you dislike about It. And what is your favorite RPG.

[Anonymous No.10766579]

>>10766010
Incidentally, I may have missed something but so far I only saw one commenter in the thread bring up one of the good reasons to defend grinding (either type) which is that it's an opportunity to practice and experiment with mechanics, to understand the capabilities of your characters in a low-stakes battle before you have to use them against a boss.

[Anonymous No.10766586]

>>10766576
>Lets make things clear, tell us what you mean by grinding. What you dislike about It
See, you've made careless assumptions already. I don't automatically dislike grinding.
But I understand some people do, and for different reasons, and probably more importantly they have different tolerance for required repetition-- no matter whether the requirement is walking in circles to trigger random battles to acquire sufficient power to proceed, or fighting a too-large number of trash battles before the next boss.

[Anonymous No.10766593]

>>10766586
Nigga be a man and answer the fucking questions. Of course you dislike It, youve been arguing against It all day long.

[Anonymous No.10766731]

>>10764613
>old RPGs didn't derive an expected level to streamline gameplay
nta reiteration; He didn't mean a computer couldn't compute lmfao

[Anonymous No.10766741]

>>10766586
Answer the fucking question

[Anonymous No.10766839]

>>10765940
>Yes, but then conversely, they rely on extremely unorthodox and often esoteric tactics to defeat these dungeons and bosses without being the appropriate level by exploiting the game's coding.
Touche. Yeah, that's true.
>The real base argument that began this discussion was that OP claimed you can't beat FF1 without grinding, and he is for all intents and purposes correct.
I guess it'd be more accurate to say that you don't need to grind to beat the game, but you do need to grind to have a reasonable chance of beating the game?

[Anonymous No.10766856]

>>10765832
>Dungeon crawlers aren't about clearing the dungeon in one go, and FF1 (OP's pic) isn't either. The normal progression when playing FF1/2 or DQ1/2/3/4 for the first time is that in many cases you will run out of ressources on your first attempt in a dungeon and will not clear it in go, and no, not because the game isn't well balanced or intended the player to grind more before attempting the dungeon, but because it was intended that way, that's was what was expected of RPGing.
I guess that becomes something of a gray area - having to repeat content because you need to farm experience/resources, versus having to repeat content because you ran out of food or MP or whatever while you were exploring.
I still agree with the other anon that the former (repeating content because you're not strong enough to beat the dungeon yet) could be considered a form of 'hidden grinding', because even if you're not explicitly choosing to stop and grind, your progress is being halted by the game until you've gotten stronger.
But starting a dungeon slightly underleveled and becoming strong enough to beat it by the end wouldn't be forced grinding so long as you're actually making progress the whole time.

[Anonymous No.10766961]

>>10761842
Sonic Adventure 2

[Anonymous No.10766962]

>>10761332
If grinding in your game isn't fun, your game isn't fun. Simple as.

[Anonymous No.10767056]

>>10766741
He will not answer, he doesnt play RPGs

[Anonymous No.10767339]

>>10766741
No. The point is to make people smarter and answering dumb pointless questions does the opposite.
>>10766593
I have not. This is my first post in the thread:>>10765704

[Anonymous No.10767342]

>>10766517
>Not even Narnia-tier shit
Lmao it's 0-1 but I'll give you another shot at it big guy. Provide any summary of game story better than a decent teen reader. Hell give us the FF6 precis in greentext if you want to. Reeeeeealy sell it.

[Anonymous No.10767436]

>>10767339
No, your point is to be a smug faggot because you lack family and friends.

[Anonymous No.10767475]

>>10767342
I genuinely don't know why you two are bothering arguing about this. You're going to be dismissively reductive of any video game storyline he brings up and he will have to resort to being reductive of any book or movie you bring up. You're being dishonest. The writing in video games can be quite good and people enjoy them as much, if not more, than books. They are different mediums for delivering storylines. Books are more complex in their storylelling, but complexity doesn't always mean better.

More modern people would claim FF7 is a more enjoyable story to experience than, say, Johnny Tremain, even though Johnny Tremain is considered a well-written and important literary work for people in the same age demographic as those who originally played FF7. Having superior literary quality from a critic perspective does not make a story itself superior to the audience. You seem to be trying to argue that strict writing quality is a measure of a good story, and that's observably false. Many of the most well-received and loved stories contain bad writing, like The Matrix.

[Anonymous No.10767487]

>>10767475
You’re kidding yourself if you think any video game story can rival “the best books movies or plays”. The only way you could possibly think that is if you only played video games.

[Anonymous No.10767497]

>>10767487
There are, in fact, millions of people that consume video games, books, and movies who consider some video game stories to be their favorite and best among all the works they've experienced. So yeah, I'd say it's actually quite common for people to feel that way. More people like the Game of Thrones television show than they did the books.

[Anonymous No.10767532]

>>10767342
>Reeeeeealy sell it
No.

[Anonymous No.10767550]

>>10761332
I enjoy character progression

[Anonymous No.10767601]

>>10767497
Is popularity the measure of quality all things? Tiktok must really be full of great content then. Let alone 50 shades of Grey, seeing How much It has sold, a great piece of literature, a modern classic

[Anonymous No.10767660]

>>10767436
No, I really would prefer reading a board that wasn't full of utter retards arguing with each other about retard shit, which is what you faggots have been doing all thread. The only reason I seem smug to you is because you obstinately refuse to do anything to improve understanding. You just want to wallow in your own stupidity.

My favorite JRPG is Final Fantasy Tactics. That's a game where grinding almost only ever comes up in the context of "type 2" grinding, explicitly fighting easy battles to gain xp (and even then you can optimize by neutralizing a final enemy then taking actions infinitely, since you gain xp and jp every turn). FF Tactics does not have typical JRPG grinding because each battle tends to be long and involved.

Yes, people consider JRPGs to be grindy because they frequently involve repetitive, mindless combat. But everyone's threshold is different, and the quality of the combat itself can change the perception. In most Final Fantasy games the encounter rate is balanced pretty well with the variety of abilities and enemy formations so that doesn't usually feel too tedious, but then I like to experiment with mechanics other people just like to do the simplest thing that wins over and over no matte what. Xenogears, on the other hand, quickly becomes a mindless slog after just a handful of battles, due to the lack of meaningful ability variety and enemy formations.

[Anonymous No.10767725]

>>10767601
>Is popularity the measure of quality all things?
"The" measure? No. A measure? Yes. In regards to what is the "best story", it's one of the only metrics that matter. How much of an audience views it as good.

>Tiktok must really be full of great content then
Who says it isn't and why? You? I don't like it either but that doesn't mean it's objectively bad content if millions of other people do think it's good content.

I could flip these questions right back at you. What is a measure of story or entertainment quality? Word count? Some kind of subjective judgment on writing quality by "experts"? Some stuffy faggot critic in his glass castle says it's good? Some collective of pseudointellectual anime fans claim it's good?

[Anonymous No.10767857]

>>10763934
based heterophile

[Anonymous No.10768004]

>>10767660
>My favorite JRPG is Final Fantasy Tactics
Original or War of the Lions?
>FF Tactics does not have typical JRPG grinding because each battle tends to be long and involved.
I don't know that I'd call FFT a JRPG anyway (SRPG, perhaps) but that's just grinding that takes longer. It's atypical in that you gain XP/JP per action and can't just press A mindlessly, but it's still fundamentally the same thing. In fact I'd call it a very grindy game, since you're unlikely to get enough job points just by doing the mandatory battles and the occasional random encounter from moving between them.
As someone who loves FFT dearly and willingly grinded he hell out of it, I actually think it would benefit from the grind being a little more mindless.

[Anonymous No.10768085]

>>10768004
>Original or War of the Lions?
I've played both on original hardware and prefer the original although I like the expanded roster space in WOTL.
>In fact I'd call it a very grindy game, since you're unlikely to get enough job points just by doing the mandatory battles and the occasional random encounter from moving between them.
Nah this is not true. You will get plenty of JP to beat the game so long as you spend them with some reasonable degree of wisdom and can competently play. You won't unlock every ability and max out any characters without grinding, though.
> but that's just grinding that takes longer.
My whole point is that people use the term "grinding" in two different ways depending on the context and that both can be reasonable. That's why I didn't bother to answer the question, originally. When people talk about grinding in FFT they're always talking about "repetitive combat to increase power level" grinding.

I'd also admit that it's true that usually, when JRPG fans talk to each other, when they say "grind" they almost always mean this type of behavior. However, outsiders or infrequent JRPG fans are more likely to casually refer to any kind of routine, repetitive turn-based combat as grinding. If someone says "I tried Xenogears but it was too grindy," I'm not going to pitch a faggot fit that they didn't use the term "properly."

[Anonymous No.10768107]

>>10768085
>and prefer the original
Okay, that was the correct answer.
>Nah this is not true. You will get plenty of JP to beat the game so long as you spend them with some reasonable degree of wisdom and can competently play. You won't unlock every ability and max out any characters without grinding, though.
I agree that you don't need to grind to win, but you're definitely encouraged to do so to fully engage with the job system. I suppose I never really tried to play without grinding, but I would say it's fairly integral to the experience. On the other hand, you're fully capable of grinding your way to classes you can't even equip until later in the game, and I probably went overboard with it. On the other other hand, you have fights like Wiegraf that completely decimate you if you're not overleveled or employing cheese strats.
>If someone says "I tried Xenogears but it was too grindy," I'm not going to pitch a faggot fit that they didn't use the term "properly."
You wouldn't, but I might! I guess these discussions do get bogged down in opposing definitions, which is unfortunate. That's true of RPGs in general, since nobody can ever agree on precisely what the genre encompasses.

[Anonymous No.10768534]

>>10767475
Thanks for taking the time to actually engage with this. Yes I was teasing that anon but characterising my response as dishonest??
>dismissively reductive of any story
Anon only mentioned FF6. Which they maybe haven't really considered is one of the better /vr plots. Reducing the plot points shows it to be fairly cliche even though it is ok. The way it plays out has good dramatic effect which hides its simplicity. The Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe actually shares some but not all of the key cliches, and even with the disadvantages of print and being a young children's book still outclasses it. As an artwork, sure YMMV, but I gave anon the chance to break it down and try. They failed for a reason.

>FFVII
Also a great example, as well as FFX. I do want to have a comeback for these in a similar genre or style but work is starting. The memory loss trope is pretty well trodden and all 3 FF examples used it, mostly well and differently. I'm betting Pebble in the Sky was source reading for FFX at least.

[Anonymous No.10768665]

>>10767475
Behold! The finest work of filmmaking comparable to the best books, plays, and video games of all time…

[Anonymous No.10768704]

>>10761332
It is indefensible if it is actually necessary to progress. A game should be just tough enough that you can get past a challenge with skill and/or intelligence, using the tools at your disposal, with grinding only there as a crutch for the midwits who have neither.

[Anonymous No.10768715]

>>10768704
In a lot of old RPGs, the level progression system assumes you will get lost and explore. So grinding is required if you using a guide like everyone does when they play an RPG these days. It isn't "required" by the intended method, but it is the way people play these games.

[Anonymous No.10768735]

>>10768715
And that's fine. I took OP (who appears to smoke pole, but that's a given) to mean that you walk around deliberately farming EXP and possibly gold and items to even have a shot at progressing past an area, rather than have all those encounters happen naturally through exploration. The experience you get out of that, however, shouldn't guarantee you will beat the challenges ahead, just give you a fighting chance, with the real clinch coming from using the items, equipment and spells at your current disposal.

[Anonymous No.10768806]

>>10768665
Yeah, many people would say it's one of the greatest stories ever told and it's their word against yours since you have no metric to discredit their opinion. You can cry all day about popular works but it isn't going to make your opinion any more discerning or valid than theirs.

[Anonymous No.10768817]

Is this the FF1 thread? Can someone tell me why this fucker is so useless. Should have just picked two fighters

[Anonymous No.10768823]

>>10768817
IIRC he's supposed to have lots of hits or higher evasion or something, but thanks to bugs none of that shit works, so he's just a worse Fighter. Or something like that. He's better in the remakes.

[Anonymous No.10768872]

>>10768806
>it's their word against yours since you have no metric to discredit their opinion
Except it’s not. I can articulate why I like or dislike something. I can make statements about things that can be argued for or against. I can find where exactly I disagree with someone and whether or not I find that disagreement valid. I don’t just repeat my position until the other person gets bored and walks away.

But yeah. It’s a free country. You can say that shit tastes better than ice cream if you like. I’m just going to call you retarded when you do.

[Anonymous No.10768890]

>>10768817
Yeah nothing he has works. Without a steal option, he should have just been a quick, dodgy character that crits more or has a really high chance to escape. But he can't do any of that on NES. Then you levels up and just becomes a red mage which isn't that helpful.

The first time I played through FF1 (last year) I randomized my party and got 2 red mages, a thief, and a white mage. That was a rough first playthrough. Next time I'm bringing a fighter or two.

[Anonymous No.10768913]

>>10768872
>Except it’s not.
It is.

>I can articulate why I like or dislike something. I can make statements about things that can be argued for or against. I can find where exactly I disagree with someone and whether or not I find that disagreement valid. I don’t just repeat my position until the other person gets bored and walks away.
Your articulations don't mean anything and can't do anything to discredit their opinion "I find Avengers: Endgame to be the best and most exciting story ever told." "I think TikTok is really fun to browse and get lost in, I love seeing so many different people do so many different things." That's the end of it. You hate those things and you can outline why you think it sucks until the cows come home and as long as they're still convinced that it's exciting or well told, that's all that matters and you have nothing. You can't prove them wrong in any fashion. There's no faulty logic there. There's nothing. It's just a personal opinion.

Your shit and ice cream analogy sucks. What you're trying to argue is that you can prove objectively that apples are a better food than oranges, which is just asinine.

[Anonymous No.10768918]

>>10761332
It's an active way to familiarize yourself with a fighting system and progress your character without risking the loss of progress

[Anonymous No.10769272]

>>10768913
>Your shit and ice cream analogy sucks
No it doesn't. I think my shit and ice cream analogy is great.
Your articulations don't mean anything and can't do anything to discredit my opinion. You hate it and you can outline why you think it sucks until the cows come home and as long as I'm still convinced that it's good, that's all that matters and you have nothing. You can't prove me wrong in any fashion. There's no faulty logic here. There's nothing. It's just a personal opinion.

You can enjoy your steaming pile of shit, but I'm still going to call you retarded when you try to pretend that it's chocolate.

[Anonymous No.10769471]

>>10769272
Unlike a subjective opinion of taste and story quality, you are making a logical error that I can actually prove. Thus the fundamental difference in your shitty inapplicable analogy and someone having an opinion you don't agree with. Not quite the sassy gotcha you were hoping it would be.

[Anonymous No.10769793]

>>10769471
My subjective opinion is that ice cream tastes better than shit. You are free to disagree and be called a shit eating retard.
Your articulations don't mean anything and can't do anything to discredit my opinion. You hate it and you can outline why you think it sucks until the cows come home and as long as I'm still convinced that it's good, that's all that matters and you have nothing. You can't prove me wrong in any fashion. There's no faulty logic here. There's nothing. It's just a personal opinion.

[Anonymous No.10769932]

>>10769793
>You are free to disagree and be called a shit eating retard.
NTA, but have you noticed you're spinning your wheels and repeating yourself with unimpressive platitudes by this point? "Haha, but what will you do when I call you a retard??"
C'mon.
Really?

[Anonymous No.10770152]

>>10761332
It's fun

[Anonymous No.10770184]

>>10768735
It's obvious trolling to insist that anything besides trying to get through the game with minimal encounters = grinding.

[Anonymous No.10770196]

>>10768806
Wrong. There's technical aspects that make it easy to do. Spot the dog stories really speak to 3 year olds but they are objectively shit. Same for works that are an assemblage of hackneyed tropes or rip-offs of better ones.

[Anonymous No.10770264]

>>10770196
>objectively shit
NTA but how can they be objectively shit if they serve their purpose well? They're children's books. They appeal to children. Therefore, their quality is subjective.
And if you were to attempt to measure them objectively, then the best criteria, again, would be how well they fulfil their purpose. They're obviously not literary masterpieces but they captivate their intended audience and help teach them to read. What's shit about them?

[Anonymous No.10770273]

>>10770196
>Wrong. There's technical aspects that make it easy to do.
Technical aspects don't automatically equate to good stories, so it's a moot point. A work can be a masterclass of perfect complex technical writing and still have nobody care about it. Nor is there really any kind of established metric for ranking or scoring such things, so it's irrelevant to bring it up anyways. Trying to argue that a story is good because it employs advanced writing techniques is just goofy. How many points is nuanced alliteration worth?

"Goodnight Moon" is a very simplistically written story, and yet it is very highly regarded by millions. There are countless writers with college degrees and high technical skill that write novels their entire lives that nobody cares about. There are novice writers who never had any formal training whose stories are much more highly regarded(like video game writers).

>Same for works that are an assemblage of hackneyed tropes or rip-offs of better ones.
All works are derivative. Your perception of them is a result of your exposure, and your personal viewpoint and exposure is not some kind of objective measure of the quality of that work or how derivative a work is. To some, The Matrix was "an assemblage of hackneyed tropes or rip-offs of better ones." To much of the American audience at the time of release, it was revolutionary, mindblowing, and innovative.

It's a bit disheartening just how delusional and retarded so many of you on this board are that you think your personal perceptions are objective reality or that you can somehow objectively rank story quality.

[Anonymous No.10770278]

>>10761332
I like fighting monsters.

[Anonymous No.10770302]

>>10769932
Not only that, he's an actual moron that doesn't realize he's unironically proving me correct. He's free to have his own opinions about how good his own analogies are and I am free to have my own opinion of his analogies. The only difference is his analogy was illogical, and logic is something that can actually be argued and demonstrated to be valid or not, and his analogy is illogical. Unlike subjective story rankings, which have no metric.

But in much simpler terms, he's just extremely asshurt that his opinion doesn't outweigh anyone else's.

[Anonymous No.10770401]

>>10765429
Yes, the entire genre generally does consist of mostly grinding, that's not wrong and it's entirely meaningful and correct to say so.

If you are fighting enemies for the loot/points they drop, which you can accumulate indefinitely sheerly through ratcheted* repetition, which makes successive fights more trivial, and would otherwise just avoid those fights were they to give you nothing, then you are grinding.

If the fights were things you couldn't indefinitely repeat on a whim, and instead were necessary to fight through in such a way that not beating them efficiently progressively drains your resources and prevents you from being able to tackle a boss, then that wouldn't be grinding.

*Ratcheted meaning that, so long as you earn points and save the game, you never lose existing points through being made to take risks or forced through skill checks that can de-level you. So beating people in a multiplayer ladder system isn't a 'grind' in this sense, as there's a hard skill/risk element that you can't break through without improving your actual skill.

[Anonymous No.10770425]

>>10761332
>Define a flaming faggot
Op

[Anonymous No.10770431]

>>10761618
Anon OP is absolutely retarded. You might as well argue with a fish

[Anonymous No.10770432]

>>10761645
>Zoomers be like
What's a movie

[Anonymous No.10770439]

>>10764082
You can grind a dungeon. Like FF3 has a magic system where you have limited spells. The first time I enter a dungeon I usually wander around the first floor looking for treasure chests, maybe going to the second floor if my party's mages have enough spells left I progress to the second before exiting and going to the inn when my party's spells are cashed and my other units are healing off of potions. Then I progress further into the dungeon, floor 2 or 3 then nope out again before attacking the boss.

[Anonymous No.10770464]

>>10769932
When the argument is
>WELL I THINK ITS AMAZING AND THATS MY OWN OPINION AND YOU CANT TELL ME IM WRONG
there’s nothing else to say. If you think that video game stories are comparable to the stories in the best books and films ever made, you’re a retard and that’s that.

I mean really. What do you expect me to do here? When any sort or questioning is met with
>NUH UH ITS GOOD, I LIKE IT BECAUSE OF REASONS
I can’t exactly have a discussion. There’s no reasoning provided, there’s no comparison, only “I LIKE IT”.
The only thing I can do is disagree and move on.

[Anonymous No.10770468]

>>10770302
>his analogy was illogical
You just keep repeating this without explaining why. I think shit tastes bad. Maybe you think it tastes good. My opinion isn’t worth more than yours. Maybe shit really does taste good. Seems logical to me.

[Anonymous No.10770475]

>>10768918
It's funny how OP doesn't answer the most concise explanations ... it's almost like he's a giant pseud pussy

[Anonymous No.10770483]

>>10770475
Which game is this? I would say it's on SNES but that might just be the shader confusing me. Could be Genesis or Master System.

[Anonymous No.10770520]

>>10770483
It's a western made grindfest for the Sega Mega Drive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons:_Warriors_of_the_Eternal_Sun

[Anonymous No.10770526]

There's something about grinding in a single player game that feels very hollow and empty. Especially when you're literally just grinding experience instead of farming drops and such.

I mean, if you're at the point where your game has a fast forward function, why even put that shit in the game?

[Anonymous No.10770641]

>>10770520
Thanks anon, adding to my list.

[Anonymous No.10770648]

>>10764996
honestly i could see it, if reading is a hobby then you’ve seen so many plots over and over before. but it’s the style behind the writing that can remain interesting.

[Anonymous No.10770687]

>Dislike grinding in JRPGs
>Find it relaxing in Dragon Quest
Not sure why this is. I think DQ just has wonderful monster designs and snappy, satisfying animations for everything.

[Anonymous No.10770713]

>>10770687
>Dislike grinding in JRPGs
>Find it relaxing in Dragon Quest
>Not sure why this is. I think DQ just has wonderful monster designs and snappy, satisfying animations for everything.
Speed helps a lot, but it could also be because Dragon Quest is built so heavily around grinding that it becomes the point of the gameplay flow, rather than something you have to put the real gameplay on hold to do.
I like grinding, but I never like it quite so much as when it's fully integrated into the experience like it is in games like Dragon Quest, Hydlide, Phantasy Star 1, Diablo, etc etc.
(But not when a game is built around monetizing grinding - that's just garbage)

[Anonymous No.10770728]

>>10761607
>you just sound like a smug pseudointellectual faggot
>>i read shitty books nobody has ever heard of
He didn't say that at all, which proves you don't read any books because you have no reading comprehension, kys retard/nigger

[Anonymous No.10770735]

>>10770464
>If you think that video game stories are comparable to the stories in the best books and films ever made
>you’re a retard and that’s that
What a pathetic gatekeep that is.
In terms of what fiction is meant to do, FF6 does all of it, and it's lighter on its feet when it does it.

[Anonymous No.10770785]

>>10770687
Dragon Quest is built around throwing you into a world and letting you explore it until you discover enough to achieve what you want, and fighting monsters in the meantime. It's much more natural to find yourself grinding enough in DQ from curiosity than in other RPGs.

[Anonymous No.10770786]

>>10770735
>and it's lighter on its feet when it does it.
I have no dog in this race but this is something that people underestimate

[Anonymous No.10770806]

>>10761332
>Defend grinding as a mechanic. (You can't)
Some games' mechanics are well polished and create an engaging gameplay loop that is enjoyable to repeat; grinding is just putting that idea into practice, while creating an additional incentive to do something that you already enjoy, in the form of a reward of some sort (advancing the story, getting an rare drop, unlocking a new skill, etc.)

tl;dr if the gameplay is fun, repeating it to get a reward can also be fun

Last but not least, because it scratches the autism itch

[Anonymous No.10770846]

>be gud
>git gud
99% of retro games are able to be completed without the need for excessive battles.
You're not good enough to progress without being overpowered?
Most of those games offered you that option, through grinding.
If you're not smart enough to understand why they chose grinding as the improvement mechanic then you better start grinding.

[Anonymous No.10770875]

>>10770735
>lighter on its feet
What do you mean by this

[Anonymous No.10770893]

>>10770475
The filters make it look awful

[Anonymous No.10770894]

>>10770875
this isn't your english class

[Anonymous No.10770901]

>>10770875
Meaning it performs at its functions quite easily, without preamble, or recap.

[Anonymous No.10770910]

>>10770846
This. It seems so obvious to me. Grinding is there as basically an on the fly difficulty setting.

[Anonymous No.10770927]

>>10770468
That's because you're very stupid and intellectually dishonest. You were so upset at the idea that your own subjective opinions don't matter more than anyone else's that you're throwing a tantrum and trying so hard to turn my own argument back on me that's you're acting like a complete idiot repeatedly. Shit is not a food, it is digestive waste. I already demonstrated that it's a weak analogy from a logical perspective.

Some things can be argued to be superior or not superior if they have systems of measurement. Things can be argued to be logical or illogical. You have no basis or metric to argue that one story is better than another.

You strike me as the type of lifeless, obsessive, bitter NEET that will just never stop replying to me with these lame trolling attempt lines of reasoning, so I'm just going to choose to ignore you at this point.

[Anonymous No.10771043]

>>10770875
NTA but well-paced, direct and unconvoluted, I guess.

[Anonymous No.10771049]

>>10770927
>Shit is not a food, it is digestive waste.
Did I say it was a food? Or did I say that some people might enjoy the taste of shit, and that you have no right to deny their subjective sense of taste?

>You have no basis or metric to argue that one story is better than another.
And you have no basis or metric to argue that shit tastes better than ice cream. It very well could, depending on the person.

And yet, it’s my own opinion that shit tastes bad and is not comparable to ice cream. It’s also my opinion that if you prefer shit to ice cream, you have bad taste and I should disregard anything you say.

Besides, you’re bullshitting here. (You) and everyone else does believe that there are some metrics by which one can gauge the relative superiority of a story.
>Is popularity the measure of quality all things?
>"The" measure? No. A measure? Yes. In regards to what is the "best story", it's one of the only metrics that matter. How much of an audience views it as good.
I guess those measures are objective and decided by you, though.

>I already demonstrated that it's a weak analogy from a logical perspective.
This is what you’ve said about it.
>Your shit and ice cream analogy sucks. What you're trying to argue is that you can prove objectively that apples are a better food than oranges, which is just asinine.
Which entirely misses the point. It’s the exact opposite.
The point of the analogy is that I can’t “objectively” prove that ice cream tastes better than shit. I can list reasons why I think ice cream tastes better, I can criticize your reasons for liking shit, but ultimately it’s a matter of taste. I cannot and am not telling you that your taste buds are wrong.

But I’m not going to value your subjective taste if you love the taste of shit.

>all that seethe
That’s crazy man. Bye.

[Anonymous No.10771054]

>>10770910
>Grinding is there as basically an on the fly difficulty setting.
Yeah, it gives the player control over the difficulty in a story-congruent way. It requires more effort than going into a menu and selecting 'easy', but is less destructive to immersion and makes you feel like you earned it by being diligent in your preparation.

[Anonymous No.10771349]

>>10770264
>>10770273
Lol you can be deliberately obtuse about this. A children's story will be objectively shit as a story. A child is just unequipped to judge what a good story is and is sufficiently intellectually to appreciate one. No muh subjective appreciation needed.

Of course technical aspects don't automatically make a good book. Writing is an art and there are objectively better artworks, even ones by novices. Particularly by avoiding habits of artists (cliches) in the genre. The first matrix film is a great example - it was ok in spite of this. It innovated on themes well enough especially for the masses that hadn't been exposed to cyberpunk; an obscure genre.

The real catch you touch on and only weakness to my argument that you point out is the subjective appreciation aspect. Consider that even the shape of a cloud or tree may appear differently to an individual so as to be a face or animal, even to being more or less aesthetically appealing. I am judging by the quality of the timber or purity of rain. We seem to be valuing different things.
Games are even harder to judge though, particularly RPGs when stories diverge or aren't linear. This can be a strength to some and cause others to dislike the result of their choices.

>delusional
Speak for yourself.

>retarded
Is the one that substitutes a sound argument for personal attacks and thinks no one will notice. Go cry in an RE/castlevania thread about it.

[Anonymous No.10771384]

>>10771349
>Lol you can be deliberately obtuse about this. A children's story will be objectively shit as a story. A child is just unequipped to judge what a good story is and is sufficiently intellectually to appreciate one. No muh subjective appreciation needed.
Okay I missed the point about them specifically being judged by the worth of their 'story', but I still wouldn't say 'objectively shit' is correct. 'Objectively lacking in narrative complexity', sure. But it's a book for toddlers. It's not trying to be anything more, and it succeeds at its goal. It's not going to hold up to classic literature but that doesn't mean it's 'objectively shit'. I understand how you're using it in the broader context of your argument but that still seems like a very strange judgement to make and I guess it rubbed me the wrong way.

[Anonymous No.10771398]

>the best video games are as good as the best books ever written
>ok lets compare them
>uhhh well we le can’t do that because erm… bias or something everything is subjective
Crazy how that works out.

[Anonymous No.10771447]

>>10762124
>17 animals
If you think that's grinding no wonder you have a problem with it. And it's obvious you've never killed God

[Anonymous No.10771556]

>>10771349
>A children's story will be objectively shit as a story
Sorry no.
Boy Who Cried Wolf is evergreen and undefeated.

[Anonymous No.10771567]

Mature stories can be childish
Childish stories can be mature

[Anonymous No.10772379]

The story isn't just the cutscenes or "story sequences" it's scraping through a tough fight with only one character alive, or Shir stealing stuff from shops, it's preparing your party for long dungeon, or going to see if there is anything over yonder, it's returning to an earlier area and crushing enemies you once struggled against. It's an adventure. I just love rpgs, western, eastern, give them all to me.

[Anonymous No.10772413]

>>10771447
They don't want you to know this but the pink puffs in the cave are free. I have over 6000 pink puffs in my back yard.

[Anonymous No.10772532]

>>10761671
this. I'm an actionfag but even I enjoy a nice, comfy jarpig now and then. Op is just grinding out some reddit karma

[Anonymous No.10772606]

>>10771384
Fair comment apologies for being brash about it.

>>10771556
Likewise to other anon.

To me TBWCW is similar to TLTWATW in its nature as a fable that reveals the nature of the hearer to themselves.

Actually I think this is partly why FF7 and FFX are strong stories - besides being detailed and original, they call into question the nature of memories and what it means to be a hero, respectively.

[Anonymous No.10772608]

>>10761332
I'm autistic and like min maxing and looking at numbers go up and down and listening to racist podcasts while I play.