/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10694703]

Wtf were they thinking with gen 1?

>Butterfree: bug / flying type
>learns no bug moves
>learns no flying moves
>can't learn any bug/flying TM moves
>can only learn one bug move (string shot) as caterpie but it does no damage
>learns grass and psychic moves instead

It's the same with Aerodactyl. Rock/flying that learns no rock moves and can't be TM'd any either. And he only learns one (1) flying move (wing attack) which only has piss weak 35 damage. Thank god at least he can be taught fly and sky attack but still, wtf?

[Anonymous No.10694710]

>>10694703
Same Type Attack Bonus is only important to pokemon players because of smogon meta. You probably wouldn't have even known about it at the time and just thought it was cool that the bug had mind powers, like you saw in the anime.

[Anonymous No.10694752]

>>10694710
My kid self didn't like using pokemon that didn't learn moves of their own type because that was lame and pretty cucked if you think about it.

[Anonymous No.10694757]

>>10694710
>You probably wouldn't have even known about it at the time
Are you really this braindead? I figured that out as a literal toddler who barely had any experience with video games.

[Anonymous No.10694785]

>>10694703
You're supposed to be able to figure out which Pokemon are most powerful at a given point in the game, and some are just novelties that look cool. Trading and evolving are major elements of this "fun mystery". You wouldn't get it, since you're used to every game focusing on maxing stats and other boring shit, as well as Bulbapedia and other crap telling you how to raise everything instantly. The lack of a feeling of power is also why the series is stagnate: everything feels samey and mediocre because they don't awe the player with this, anymore, besides the fact that trading and versions are now completely pointless It's a series that deserved to be dead since Gen 3.

[Anonymous No.10694792]

>>10694703
Gen 1 still best Gen.
deal with it zoomie.

[Anonymous No.10694817]

>>10694752
>>10694757
You're not fooling anyone.

[Anonymous No.10694821]

>>10694703
I like it because real life creatures are chaotic and arbitrary to our sense of reason. It adds to the rough, indifferent feeling or gen I.
>>10694785
This too, lots of pokemon were just mundane and weak. Most of gen I pokemon didn't have crazy good stats, and if they did they also had significant drawbacks

[Anonymous No.10694823]

>>10694817
>he's serious

[Anonymous No.10694827]

>>10694785
Complete bullshit. They still make mediocre Pokemon with cool novelty mechanics and they still make overpowered shit.
The novelty ones are much more interesting than the classic ones and the broken ones are broken enough to periodically destroy the competitive meta.

[Anonymous No.10694828]

>>10694710
It is literally any sensible player's expectation that a Pokémon of any type, would use moves of its own type.

[Anonymous No.10694830]

>>10694827
>>10694828
Sometimes creatures are just pathetic and retarded but they managed to survive and reproduce for all these years and I like when games reflect that aspect of nature

[Anonymous No.10694842]

>>10694785
>>10694821
Not OP, but there are better ways to defend Butterfree and gen 1 without romantizing bottom barrel shit.

[Anonymous No.10694846]

>>10694842
Imperfect balance (or perfect imbalance) is better than over-designed bullshit. That;s just how it is

[Anonymous No.10694853]

>>10694846
It didn't go anywhere.

[Anonymous No.10694854]

>>10694817
Only one (you) on my screen.

[Anonymous No.10694862]

>>10694846
The 2nd and argubly 3rd gen had a bigger inbalance than gen 1 actually.

[Anonymous No.10694870]

>>10694830
Pokémon has a few designated species like that, Butterfree isn't one of them.

Butterfree's original design and Pokédex entries actually suggests it was supposed to be a Venonat evolution, but they swapped it with Venomoth. It makes a particular point about the poisonous/toxic powder/dust coating its wings, even though it's not a poison type like the Venonat family.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Butterfree_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Pok%C3%A9dex_entries_2
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Butterfree_(Pok%C3%A9mon)/Generation_I_learnset#By_leveling_up

That explains Butterfree's unusual emphasis on poison, but not that it lacks any offensive bug type moves.
That was probably more down to balance issues in Gen I, where there were only three offensive bug type moves in the whole game, and Psychic types were only weak to Bug.
Butterfree's role in the game is to provide early access to a moderately strong Pokémon for that point in the game. It evolves very quickly at level 10, and then learns Confusion at level 12 (10 in Yellow) which is useful for handling frequently encountered Poison types, or any other base stage Pokémon.

[Anonymous No.10694875]

>>10694710
It literally says it in the game. I remember a trainer saying it so I looked it up. It's a bird keeper on route 14. I'm fairly certain it's mentioned in every game until rs where it's explicitly stated.

[Anonymous No.10694878]

>>10694870
Caterpie is obviously a swallowtail butterfly caterpillar, not a moth.

[Anonymous No.10695009]

>>10694710
NTA, but I was an autistic kid and only liked using Pokémons with the moves they learned naturally. This made Butterfree a pretty weak choice overall, even if youre were just playing the game not competitively.

[Anonymous No.10695109]

>>10695009
Not even. Butterfree fucking wrecks in early game. Sleep powder, confusion, poison powder, stunspore. It's a third stage evolution at level 10(which means it's more powerful than most pokemon who are most likely not evolved at all. The downside being the lack of staying power as those good stats in the beginning don't get any better later, still viable for in game tho), it dominates until early-mid game (level 25 give or take).

[Anonymous No.10695149]

>>10694703
i'm pretty sure that the entirety of the gen1 move pools are an uncaught bug

[Anonymous No.10695407]

because gen 1 was garbage. gen 2 is where it peaked and in fact it even included gen 1 region as bonus as an apology for those who suffered in gen 1. rest of gens are irrelevant
these days people do romhack of gen 1 to 'fix' due to how flawed it was

[Anonymous No.10695436]

>>10694785
>stagnate
please refrain from mixing up adjectives and verbs
this message also goes out to people who cannot handle the existence of the word "dominant"

[Anonymous No.10695438]

>>10694703
Are you saying that Butterfree is UNDERpowered?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pJ-VhMBxAo

[Anonymous No.10695443]

>>10694703
>can't learn any bug/flying TM moves
are you sure, i seem to remember he can learn the fly mn. bug, there's barely any bug attacks in the first original game.

[Anonymous No.10695485]

The reason is that Butterfree and Aerodactyl are already super strong without same type damage.

Butterfree has sleep powder and Confusion, and you want to give him STAB on top of it?? He's already the strongest motherfucker you can get early game, is the fastest evolution too, and only starts to fall behind late in the game.

As for Aerodactyl, he's also a strong MOFO and benefits from rock type.

Having hybrid mons like this with different pros&cons makes for far more interesting balancing than
>Noooo! The balance should be STAB VS STAB only !!!
>BTW Sleep Powder is BANNED
>waaaaa Butterfree is a piece of shit now what were the devs thinking!!!"

[Anonymous No.10695489]

>>10695443
I just checked and nope, he can't learn fly
https://pokemondb.net/pokedex/butterfree/moves/1

[Anonymous No.10695495]

>>10694875
NPCs in gen1 actually tell you everything you need to know. On top of STAB,
there are NPCs who tell you that every mon is different and that carefully trained mons are stronger. So as a kid with that in mind, I captured 2 mons of the same level, checked their stats, realized they were different. Then, I captured a high level mon and trained a mon myself from to that level and checked the stats.

In other words at the age of ten with only gen1 existing and no internet access, I already knew about the concept of EVs and IVs, just because of what NPCs tell you (I just didn't know they were called that).

But then again, I wasn't a retarded kid.

[Anonymous No.10695513]

>>10695495
Pokemon RGBY was astoundingly good at communicating its mechanics, despite almost every mechanic being broken due to programming oversights everywhere - that's a whole other subject though.

[Anonymous No.10695705]

>>10694703
>u-uh i wanna use the scrimblo but it's not OPTIMAL!
>FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT
If this matters even the slightest bit to you, you're a fucking retard and should seek Canadian healthcare ASAP.

[Anonymous No.10695719]

>>10694875
by the way you have to deliberately talk to the trainer after you battle him otherwise you will miss this message. It's very likely a lot of people have missed this due to this reason

[Anonymous No.10695732]

>>10695719
Why would you ever NOT talk to the trainer you just beat? They all have fun things to say.

[Anonymous No.10695736]

I didn't know about STAB but I did like a pokemon to be able to use a move that matches its type, because why wouldn't you. It's nice when things match.

As an adult I actually became even more autistic about it, but I am slowly teaching myself out of that thought pattern with the knowledge it's actually very beneficial to know moves outside of type for better coverage and versatility.

It's still kinda retarded in cases where a pokemon with really good special stat only learns physical moves, for example, though.

[Anonymous No.10695753]

>>10695732
I agree but sometimes I forget or have to rush to the center so I end up only seeing about half of the messages

[Anonymous No.10695795]

>>10694703
its still useful as an early game mon, there's so many poison types in kanto and having butterfree with confusion is good
butterfree is a special attacker and bug/flying are both physical types so might not even be that useful if it did get stab moves

[Anonymous No.10695802]

>>10695485
>>BTW Sleep Powder is BANNED
I mean Sleep Clause is as old as Pokemon Stadium, so

[Anonymous No.10696123]

>>10695795
In gen 1 and gen 2, Butterfree can be pretty decent even in the late game. Gen 1 has a glitch where if you boost a stat, your other stats reapply the badge stat boosts, so once you have all the badges you can exploit Sleep Powder and Harden to fairly safely double all your stats (except Defense, which is quadrupled) and shred the enemy team. In gen 2, Butterfree can punch upwards quite well with Sleep Powder + Nightmare which I've used in a Butterfree solo run without grinding. Butterfree is also available very early in those games so you'll also be gaining Effort Value stats along the way making them a bit stronger

[Anonymous No.10696142]

Confusion is really good in the early game

[Anonymous No.10696176]

>>10694703
why hate on butterfree when zubat/golbat are 100 times worse?

zubat/golbat can't even learn a single good move besides normal type moves and also has terrible stats, easily the worst gen1 pokemon unlike this dumb psychic bug with status moves

like seriously, the only shitmons worse than a gen1 zubat are unevolved bugs like metapod

[Anonymous No.10696183]

>>10695485
>only starts to fall behind late in the game
Butterfree starts out behind and stays behind forever.
The easiest way to get one is to catch a Level 5 Caterpie (6 in Yellow) and train it up five levels.
The issue is that Caterpie is incredibly slow to train because it is as weak or weaker than every other Pokemon in the area. It has a base stat total of 195. (Sixth lowest in the entire franchise)
If you go out of your way to grind one up anyway, your reward is getting a Pokemon who can very poorly use Psychic-type moves. If you grind any of the starters you have much more impressive results.
Sleep Powder is not an argument in Butterfree's favor because both Oddish and Bellsprout learn it at almost the exact same level (Butterfree at 17/15 depending on version, Oddish at 19, Bellsprout at 18) while being available at a much higher level, and both are already about as strong as Butterfree is even before they evolve.
Butterfree does not shine at any point in the game. Using one is a long slow slide from weakness and irrelevance to lower echelons of weakness and irrelevance.

Not every Pokemon is strong. Even if Sleep Clause didn't exist, Butterfree would still be weak because much stronger Pokemon can use sleep moves better.
In Pokemon Perfect (a different alternate online battling community than Smogon) they play without Sleep Clause and Butterfree is 6U, putting it below such Pokemon as Drowzee, Gastly and Poliwag.

It isn't completely useless; no Pokemon is. If you want to play with it, you can, and you'll beat the game with no real difficulty.
But it is so obviously much weaker than other Pokemon that it feels a little unfair. That's why it was made stronger in later generations by giving it powerful Bug-type moves and strong support options like Tailwind.

[Anonymous No.10696192]

>>10696176
Golbat is available in Gen 1 at levels as high as 55, at which point it's useful by default regardless of how poor its movepool is.
The highest level the Butterfree line is available at is 6, so it requires experience investment to do anything.

[Anonymous No.10696215]

>>10696192
wrong, it will never be useful because literally anything you can use, or have been using will be better

only autistic retards doing weird challenge playthroughs with extremely arbitrary rules would ever care about the starting level unless you are talking about the diglett cave or some other place in a game where you can access extremely high level pokemon very early

who cares if you can catch a level 55 golbat when you are already strong enough to beat the game lmao

[Anonymous No.10696226]

Those issues are widespread in gen 1. There is only one decent offensive bug move which is Pin Missile, and the only bug pokemon that gets it is Beedrill. Everyone else gets literally nothing.
The only good fighting move is Hi Jump Kick which is exclusive to Hitmonlee, everyone else has to make do with fucking Submission.
There are no good ghost moves at all, Nightshade does fixed damage based on level regardless of type effectiveness and Lick is just pathetic.

Obviously this board is biased in favor of older games but later Pokemon gens did a lot to make more Pokemon usable by adding decent moves to every type and distributing them better. The physical/special in split in gen 4 also allowed most Pokemon to get STAB in their better offensive stat. That's pretty much where it peaked for me.

[Anonymous No.10696309]

>>10694828
lmao, no. you got to be very autistic to
>1. look at a pokemon's type 2. look at their move types
>wtf, this bug...has a grass move?! not a BUG move?! I'm deeply offended. what unrealism... it's racist to suggest cuz you're a bug you'd move on grass anyway... btw im definitely not worried about the meta...yup, bugs having a grass-type move was always wrong on PRINCIPLE!

[Anonymous No.10696346]

Meanwhile back in the 90s

[Anonymous No.10696469]

>>10696309
No, it's more like
>I need a bug type to kill psychic types
>...but this bug doesn't have any moves that beat psychic types, so I need to find a different bug

[Anonymous No.10696601]

I dare you to post this thread on /vp/, it'll be loads more fun.

[Anonymous No.10696775]

>>10695802
Sleep clause is a thing, but Smogon decided to straight up just ban moves that afflict sleep status.
Abilities that cause sleep like Effect Spore aren't banned though.

>>10696469
Looking up Smogon Gen RB strategies for popular Psychic types, Bug types never get a mention as methods of countering Mewtwo, Alakazam, etc.
Not even for Exeggutor, which had a double weakness to Bug types. That's really a testament to the lack of viability of Bug types in Gen I.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rb/types/psychic/

Bug types are all low tier in Gen RB because there's nothing going for them.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/rb/types/bug/
For fuck sake look at the tiers. PU was a tier introduced below NU (Never Used), and there's a fucking ZU tier below PU for "Zero Used")

[Anonymous No.10696803]

Yeah there were a few silly oversights along with a few straight up broken things in RBY but it's pretty understandable given the circumstances of the games creation and how ambitious of a project it was. It would have been nice for Yellow to address any of these issues though.

[Anonymous No.10696813]

>>10694757
wow you were a nitpicky faggot back then too. are you really proud of this?

[Anonymous No.10696871]

>>10694710
The anime, which is notoriously inaccurate with the games, actually did explain same type attack bonus in the Gen 1 era

[Anonymous No.10696880]

>>10696469
What other bug?

[Anonymous No.10696885]

>>10694703
You should try playing the game instead of sifting through spreadsheets of stats and learnsets.
Maybe you'll even have fun, God forbid.

[Anonymous No.10696902]

>>10696880
For all intentions and purposes, Psychic types had no weaknesses in Gen I.

Literally the only use case for bug type moves was Pin Missile on Jolteon. Extremely few non-bug types learn any bug type moves.

[Anonymous No.10696903]

>>10696885
He can only have fun in RPGs when playing with the most powerful build possible, provided by guides of course

[Anonymous No.10696906]

>>10696346
>unbeatable team
>no cut
>no strength
Your journey stops at Vermillion, and you'd never get through Victory Road anyway.

[Anonymous No.10696976]

>>10694875
Anon is now pissing and shitting and screaming

[Anonymous No.10696978]

>>10696309
Anon...Paras is half grass.
>>10696885
>>10696903
God Forbid multiple types and pokemon not being dog shit and unable to fully use their own type.
Nobody is saying Butterfree should be on the same level as Alakazam.

[Anonymous No.10696996]

>>10696978
I can tell you've never played the game organically, because it genuinely does not matter in single player.

[Anonymous No.10697006]

>>10696996
Guess what retard, replacing bad moves with good ones also doesn't matter in single play, but i don't see you confronting gamefreak to take out every move with +60 damage.

[Anonymous No.10697025]

>>10695109
Yeah, before Brock I usually train a Butterfree until it has confusion, which should serve you very well in the early game. Usually it + your Charmander/Charmeleon is good enough to beat Brock easily

[Anonymous No.10697035]

>>10694703
Gen 1 was made by a cat pissing on a keyboard and the short circuits generated the code. Just don't expect anything good and you'll never be disappointed.

[Anonymous No.10697052]

>>10697025
To be honest, the time you take to get a butterfree to level 12 is probably way longer than to just train your Charmander to a level where it can just ember through Brock's pokemon (assuming you use status moves when he uses bide).

[Anonymous No.10697070]

>>10697052
Probably, but then you're pretty much golden to start training something else and you have a handful of strong mons to handle a bunch of situations

[Anonymous No.10697075]

>>10697006
What are you talking about?
Are you confronting Game Freak over Butterfree not having Bug or Flying moves in a 30 year old game? That's autistic as fuck, dude.

[Anonymous No.10697080]

>>10697075
No, so why are you sucking game freak's cock over a dumb arbitrary decision they made 30 years ago?

[Anonymous No.10697090]

>>10695513
So sick of this retarded fucking meme that is only repeated by dipshits who probably have never even played it, and read that one infographic one time.
>you can miss 1 in 256 times even on 100% accurate moves
Welp, games completely unplayable now! Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.10697097]

>>10697080
>why are you sucking game freak's cock
You're gonna have to elaborate, mate.
Telling you to play the game without your nose buried in stats and charts isn't "sucking game freak's cock".
Why are you so offended by the idea of playing a game? You sound like your frothing at the mouth over the mere mention of it.

[Anonymous No.10697104]

>>10697035
That very cat is now head of the dev team.

[Anonymous No.10697106]

>>10697097
I'm not OP, i'm mocking you for assuming anyone that makes a sensible criticism at gen 1 somehow means they aren't enjoying the game.

[Anonymous No.10697116]

>>10695495
It was also obvious that training them yourself made them stronger if you did the rare candy glitch and got them to level 100 that way.
Then there was also carbos, iron, etc, so you also knew something else was going on behind the scenes

[Anonymous No.10697117]

>>10697106
>IT DOESN'T GET STAB THIS IS UNUSABLE
is not a sensible criticism.
There are plenty of things to criticize, but this ain't one of them.

[Anonymous No.10697120]

>>10697117
Where exactly did anyone said that Butterfree is unusable?

[Anonymous No.10697134]

>>10697120
Being unable to grasp hyperbole is a pretty common sign of Asperger's, you know.

[Anonymous No.10697142]

>>10697134
Nobody said that Butterfree is bad specifically because it doesn't learn STAB either.

[Anonymous No.10697154]

For me? Butterfree is cool because he's purple and Ash has one.

[Anonymous No.10697156]

>>10697142
Why even post if you don't bother reading the OP?

[Anonymous No.10697158]

>>10696176
>why hate on butterfree when zubat/golbat are 100 times worse?
Because nobody in their right mind ever caught a zubat. They were so damn sick of being attacked by 5000 of them while walking through Mt Moon they never want to see another zubat for the rest of their lives.

[Anonymous No.10697168]

>>10697156
I see that reading comprehension isn't your forte, eh?
OP never implied that what is really holding Butterfree back was the lack of STAB.

[Anonymous No.10697169]

>>10697158
Golbat fucks. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.10697175]

>game has wacky special pokemon that aren't sticking to the boring archetype template
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.10697180]

>>10694875
>>10695495
>>10696871
Many, if not all, strategy guides of the era mentioned STAB, but they usually would make the error that Normal types didn't get it.

[Anonymous No.10697195]

>>10697180
>Get 'Em While They're Young

[Anonymous No.10697198]

Gen 1 being unbalanced move-wise was cancelled out by it not telling you shit about the moves themselves

An underrated addition to Gen 2 is that it actually tells you what BP moves have and what they do

[Anonymous No.10697205]

>>10696346
Goddamn that is an awful team
>3 fire moves on the fire poke

>>10696885
but spreadsheets are fun

[Anonymous No.10697219]

>>10697175
Butterfree wouldn't use STAB even if it had it since it's physically weak.
But giving the player the choice to do so is much better than not to.

[Anonymous No.10697234]

>>10694703
There were only 4 bug-type moves in gen 1 to begin with, one of which was a signature move for Beedrill.
>Stun Spore (Grass)
>Sleep Powder (Grass)
>Poison Powder (Poison
The important thing is that Butterfree learns these moves, not they labeled them "bug-type." They don't even do direct damage

[Anonymous No.10697265]

>>10696226
>There is only one decent offensive bug move which is Pin Missile, and the only bug pokemon that gets it is Beedrill.
I purposely made my beedrill not learn pin missile last playthrough. Did I screw up? It seemed weak af, just 14 base damage and 85% accuracy? Seems like garbage. I taught him toxic instead.

[Anonymous No.10697270]

>>10697265
They're a little mixed up: Pin Missile is one of the few bug moves on things not Bug type. Beedrill also gets TwinNeedle, which is basically Bug Type double kick with a chance to poison. You're fine.

[Anonymous No.10697279]

>>10697265
You did good.
Pin missile needs to hit 4 times to outdamage twinneedle on top of having a chance to miss.

[Anonymous No.10697306]

>>10697234
Like you say, Butterfree is all about inflicting status conditions.

Red and Blue were designed foremost as single player adventures, things like link battles were a very late inclusion and that's reflected in the game balance like originally Blizzard being a 120 power move with 90% accuracy and a 30% chance to freeze (10% in later Gen I releases).
Freeze status in Gen I is basically a KO as the only way to unfreeze is through item usage (ice heal, full heal, full restore), to be hit by a Fire type move that can inflict Burn status (all except fire spin), or for the opponent to use Haze.
Blizzard was OP as fuck.

[Anonymous No.10697385]

>>10694710
I had no idea about the STAB, but I thought that my Quilava should breath fire while my Kadabra should do psychic attacks or something.
I also understood intuitevly that Pikachu probably should have stronger Thunderbolt than, say, Persian, because one is a cat and another is an electric mice that accidentally fries Ash when nervous.

[Anonymous No.10697410]

I will never forgive Game Freak for making Onix suck when they could just give him shitty moves when brock uses him.
>Oh but it doesn't matter now that Steelix exists
But Steelix is slow and lamer than Onix.

[Anonymous No.10697425]

>>10697090
It's not unplayable by any means, but it really is broken in ways that can't be avoided even by beginners - usually it works out in the player's favor though so it's not the kind of broken a child would notice, or even most adults for that matter.

[Anonymous No.10697456]

>>10697306
>Blizzard was OP as fuck.

This is why I laugh any time someone talks about Gen 1 competitive seriously. Blizzard alone makes it a huge gamble on who wins. Everyone is looking to get that juicy freeze on Chansey so it doesn't just stall out your entire fucking team with softboil.

[Anonymous No.10697458]

I was looking for a certain post ITT and...

>>10694870
THERE IT IS.

[Anonymous No.10697469]

>>10697456
Freeze clause makes it "fair".
Which is funny because later gens aren't much better, with gen 2 being objectively worse than it's predecessor in this aspect.

[Anonymous No.10697484]

>>10697425
The fact that nobody noticed or cared before "erm Did You Know?" is a testament to just how little it matters.

[Anonymous No.10697494]

>>10697090
Also for the record I think the 1/256 miss chance is actually a fun mechanic, even if speedrunner maniacs hate it. Could maybe be "fixed" (for speedfags) by an extra caveat: Once a 1/256 miss occurs, then next 100 accuracy move will be guaranteed to hit.
Some interesting consequences:

• Sand attack lowers accuracy of all moves (except Swift), which makes this caveat no longer apply until the user switches out— no more guaranteed hits unless you use Swift.

• Moves with 100 accuracy are further incentivized against pokes that have used evasion-raising moves. Every time a 1/256 move misses, it will hit on the next turn, which forces Double Team users off the field if they're about to be dealt a deadly blow.
• This means Double Team sweeps are much less viable to the point where the move could possibly be taken out of Smogon's overzealous ban list.

• Undecided as to whether the caveat should reset or not when switching between pokes.

[Anonymous No.10697506]

>>10697484
Of course. It's more fascinating and charming than anything, once you know about the issues.

[Anonymous No.10697518]

>>10697469
Gen 2 competitive is an actual slog. Stalling is the whole fucking game so a battle between 2 decent players takes at least 15 minutes minimum.

[Anonymous No.10697525]

>>10696775
Why doesn't Smogon just ban paralysis while they're at it? Christ. Did they really apply this ban to every single generation?
>>10697518
Speaking of, Smogon should've just banned GSC Snorlax to ubers.

[Anonymous No.10697534]

>>10697525
They didn't, i'm literally playing GSC OU right now with a Snorlax on my team

[Anonymous No.10697545]

>>10697534
I know. I'm saying Snorlax SHOULD have been banned, not that it HAS been banned.

[Anonymous No.10697590]

>>10697545
Their reasoning for not banning him was because "without snorlax the meta becomes more toxic" and i call bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10697613]

>>10697168
>I see that reading comprehension isn't your forte, eh?
if you ever find yourself typing this absolutely perfectly generic cliche of a rejoinder then you need to step back and run a check on yourself to confirm that you are in fact fully human

[Anonymous No.10697623]

>>10697613
Nice non argument. faggot.

[Anonymous No.10697686]

>>10697265
Jesus, I forgot that Pin Missile used to be so much worse. It's base 25 for 2-5 hits in modern games.
Yeah there are just no good bug moves in gen 1. Twineedle is the best and it's still quite weak. They really just figured that some types should be weak overall.

[Anonymous No.10697742]

>>10694703
We already have a pokemon thread >>10693950 here, and your question is answered several times there. The goal of Gen 1 Pokemon wasn't to make some super balanced competitive tournament. It was to give you a bunch of bugs and fish and fire-breathing lizards and tell you to have fun with them.

Butterfree is bug/flying because it's a butterfly, which is a bug and which flies. It has a bunch of "powder" moves because butterflies always deal in pollen, and the psychic moves were because a psychic butterfly sounded neat. It doesn't learn any bug moves because there were only three, and butterflies don't "bite" or "sting". It doesn't learn any flying moves because it doesn't have a beak to "peck" and a butterfly can't attack with its wings.

As >>10694710 points out, STAB doesn't matter much in the actual game. Being able to steamroll stuff with Psychic is a lot better than Drill Peck because it's strong and effective against so much, not because there's a STAB move involved. Butterfree worked better learning Confusion/Psybeam at its levels than it ever would've been learning any bug or flying moves from any method.

[Anonymous No.10697793]

>>10697742
Butterflies do leech actually.

[Anonymous No.10697808]

>>10697742
A bit odd that this thread managed to outlive my own even though this one was posted later.

[Anonymous No.10697809]

>>10697793
Well the move is called "suck blood" in JP, which is probably why Zubat learns it but so many bug-types don't.

[Anonymous No.10697850]

>>10697809
Moths and Ants (or whatever Paras is) don't suck blood either

[Anonymous No.10697964]

>>10697686
>They really just figured that some types should be weak overall.
I mean it makes sense from a realistic point of view. A bug lands on your shoulder, you're either going to swat it off or kill it out right. Fire is going to be destructive in any real environment. Electricity will kill you without proper "grounding".

You can sort of understand their thought process just by linking the typings a to real world analogy or superstition.

[Anonymous No.10697976]

>>10697850
A lot of moths don't even have mouths.

[Anonymous No.10698050]

>>10697964
Too bad fire fucking sucks in gen 1 lmao.

[Anonymous No.10698086]

>>10697976
But they have mouththings that allow them to suck.

[Anonymous No.10698290]

>>10697205
>Goddamn that is an awful team
>>3 fire moves on the fire poke
My Typhlosion always had 4

[Anonymous No.10698348]

>>10696183
Geez, what a virgin

[Anonymous No.10698357]

>>10698348
>i've been proven wrong, time to insult your social standing
You are a failed normalfag talking about 30 year old Game Boy games on a Cambodian underwater karaoke forum.

[Anonymous No.10698407]

>>10694828
Example 8 year old charizard move set:

Ember
Fire spin
Flame thrower
Fire blast

[Anonymous No.10698413]

>>10698407
>didn't replace Ember with Dragon Rage because he's a dragon, and you spent that fucking time in the casino
NGMI

[Anonymous No.10698424]

>>10694703
The first two gens of pokemon are extremely jank and full of poor design decisions. Masuda finally fixed things up when he got to create an entire gen from the ground up.

[Anonymous No.10698435]

>>10698357
Proven wrong? I just walked into this thread and see some nerd going off about some old ass game. Hahaha I wish ya well bud haha

[Anonymous No.10699194]

>>10698348
>>10698435
you're really not very interesting

[Anonymous No.10699272]

>>10697534
You should read posts before replying to them.

[Anonymous No.10699320]

>>10699272
I speedread

[Anonymous No.10699410]

My friend thought I was weird because I trained a Beedrill

[Anonymous No.10699423]

>>10698407
Yes young children make dumb decisions.
Gen 1 and 2 are notorious for managing moves though. There are no opportunities to relearn moves, TMs are single use and only one available per game. You can't review the effects of a move until after you've learnt it.

That said it's not contrary to my point that it's not unreasonable that any given Pokémon should be able to learn moves matching its own typing.

Like, nevermind that Butterfree has a crap attack stat that can't make good use of Bug type moves, that it can't learn those is still strange to anyone no matter their level of understanding of the game's mechanics.
The vast majority of kids playing Gen 1 wouldn't have understood that all bug moves are physical, all fire moves are special, the function of the special stat, etc.

For fucks sake the TCG Charizard card was coveted because it had 120 HP and a 100 damage attack. Kids playing with the cards often didn't understand the rules and why this card isn't actually very good in play, but the art is cool so who cares?

[Anonymous No.10700157]

>>10696346
kek holy fuck that is literally my Blastoise set

[Anonymous No.10700349]

>>10699410
Isn't that a completely normal poke to want? He's way more badass than a butterfree, especially if you watched the show and saw the episode where beedrills utterly fucked up Team Rocket.

[Anonymous No.10700358]

>>10700349
Well, it's weak and it's basically a bee so people think I'm weird because I like it so much and I always train one in any game that has Weedles available.

I don't care, it's my trustworthy bug bro.

[Anonymous No.10700546]

>>10699423
>>10694703
Look, bugs all crawl on grass anyway. When you first find them, is Viridian Forest. And what's there? A bunch of grass. I think it's not shocking Butterfree has a grass type move. cmon. grass and bug is the same thing. I mean, why is there even a bug type? If it were me, the types would be merged to grass. Bugs are grass things you ignore to use geodude or pidgey.
>b-but every mon's on grass too
Pidgey is only on grass, to prey on bugs. That's how cool Pidgey is. I like Pidgey. and geodude is on the mountains.

[Anonymous No.10700552]

>>10694703
It's almost like this was a completely new game they were making.

[Anonymous No.10700663]

>>10700552
That's not an excuse to make illogical decisions.

[Anonymous No.10700683]

>>10700663
If you make a huge complex and game from the ground up, it's natural and human to make a small mistake, so yes it is.

[Anonymous No.10700706]

>>10700552
That's not a shield from criticism. If something was done wrong (this wasn't), it's always worth pointing out.

[Anonymous No.10700737]

>>10700683
I don't think not putting rock type moves on a rock type pokemon is a "small mistake". That's like having staryu with no water moves.

[Anonymous No.10700758]

>>10700737
It definitely is when there are 151 Pokemon, some of them are dual types and unlike in rps the type chart looks like this.

[Anonymous No.10700771]

>>10700758
>Dark and Steel
>In gen 1
The type chart looks like THIS actually

[Anonymous No.10700787]

>>10700683
>>10700758
>dual types
Except that dual typing was brought to the table very late in development (hence why the effectiveness text is bugged), so Aerodactyl was design first and foremost as a rock type like the rest of the fossils.
A small mistake is focus energy being glitched, Psychic being immune to ghost or great ball having a better catch rate than ultra ball; some pokemon not having STAB was a deliberate design choice.

[Anonymous No.10700809]

>>10700663
>>10700683
>>10700737
It's not a mistake at all in this case.
Of the four Bug moves, Butterfree gets three. The only one it doesn't involves spikes.
Please play the games before commenting on them.

[Anonymous No.10700812]

>>10700546
Bug types were pretty grounded in reality in the original Game Boy games. They all had reasonable natural types like poison, flying, or grass (in the case of Parasect's parasitic mushroom, which is based on a real world fungi),
The exception to that is Scizor, which is a little out there in that it was given a liquid metal coating to have a fully metallic body; even its muscles are metal.
Gen I's exploration of bug types was mostly just forest and savannah type environments.

In the modern series, the Bug type in general represents the biodiversity of insects, arthropods, arachnids, and anything generally considered a "bug" in the animal kingdom. There are water dwelling bugs like Surskit, Wimpod, and Dewpider,
then there's earth dwelling and burrowing bugs like Shuckle, Nincada, and Dwebble. They also started leaning into the fantasy a bit more; what if spiders inhabited caves that were full of magnetically charged rocks? You get Galvantula, the galvanized tarantula, naturally.
Gen V in particular was extremely kind to Bug types, introducing 18 whole species. It also revised the move "Bug Buzz" so that Bug Pokémon that lack wings are able to use this powerful 100% accuracy move and improve the viability of Bug types across the board.

[Anonymous No.10700831]

>>10700809
Butterfree doesn't get leech life and twin needle either.
The one to get 3 of all 4 bug moves was beedrill who only missed leech life.

[Anonymous No.10700840]

>>10700809
>Of the four Bug moves, Butterfree gets three
He gets one in gen 1. Well technically zero, but caterpie learns one.

https://pokemondb.net/pokedex/butterfree/moves/1

[Anonymous No.10700907]

>>10694710
While you're wrong about STAB not being well known, I think what's more accurate is that STAB is a bonus and not to be expected. There are strong pokemon like Dragonite that don't get any STAB moves for their dragon typing because they're already pretty strong. Where as a STAB move on a weaker pokemon can help give it a bit more power.And Butterfree's mechanics are built more around status changes.

[Anonymous No.10701043]

>>10700831
Another win for Beedrill chads, the superior bug type

Butterfree stays losing

[Anonymous No.10701951]

>>10700840
It's kinda like how Metapod is commonly cited as only being able to use harden, but if you evolve one from a Caterpie it can still use any of the moves it knew beforehand.
It's just wild and trained Metapod that only know harden.

[Anonymous No.10702151]

>>10700663
>make a move called Lick
>don't give it to pokemon with the giant tongue that licks everything

[Anonymous No.10702192]

i've just realized many of my favs in GSC have awful stats. no wonder it was so difficult to keep them alive. the gamefreak fuckers are so mean to bug pokemons.

[Anonymous No.10702203]

>>10702192
It wasn't until Gen 4 that Bug got moves wort using, and Gen 5 that it got some pokemon that weren't garbage tier.
>play Gen 3
>get a Surskit
>"OH FUCK YEAH BUG/WATER THAT'S SO COOL!! I wonder what it evolves into?"
>mfw it evolved
People who bitch and moan about Fire/Fighting will never understand true sorrow.

[Anonymous No.10702396]

>>10702203
megahorn is a 120 Power attack introduced in Gen 2, it's definitely a move worth using

[Anonymous No.10702423]

>>10702203
>>10702396
Good bug moves were intrudoced by gen 3 actually.
You had megahorn and Signal beam, the problem is that they were hardly distributed, so most bugs had to rely on silver wind or hidden power.

[Anonymous No.10702432]

>>10702396
>>10702423
Megahorn being Heracross exclusive made its use as Psychic killing Fire Blast limited at best.
Really, it's the most GameFreak thing of all that when hit with "Pyschic is too overpowered it needs checks in place", their answer wasn't to make Bug and Ghosts more capable at that but instead just invent two whole new types with the express purpose of "this nerfs Psychic ok?"

[Anonymous No.10702639]

The point of Butterfree was to give you an early game top level evolution. It's a fairly useful pokemon for the first 1/3 of the game, then it falls off and you should replace it.

It also learns a lot of status modifying moves which makes it good for cathing pokemon for a good while after.

And hey if you want a challenge try carrying Butterfree to the Elite Four -- I beat Lance with nothing but a Butterfree using Sleep Powder a lot.

This is what's great about older Pokemon games, you get out of the game whatever you want. No BS about the meta game or balance, it's just a bit of fun.

[Anonymous No.10702656]

>>10694703
You are thinking STAB is everything. In the original to GBA games Special and Attack corresponded with what types the Pokemon could use well... until DP fucked this all up by going peak unga bunga powercreep with the idiotic split which favored min-maxing. It actually is kind of sad. The only major flaw with pre-split are Fire and Ghost which could have just been easily fixed by making Fire a physical type and Ghost a special type

[Anonymous No.10702661]

>>10702656
Cry more. Fire Punch should always have run off the physical stat.

[Anonymous No.10702670]

>>10702661
that's exactly what I'm saying. Fire should have been a Physical type

[Anonymous No.10702758]

>>10702656
>>10702670
There are many pokemon that wouldn't benefit from fire being physical.
If anything they should've made ghost special and gen 2 and introduced Dark as physical.

[Anonymous No.10702995]

>>10702758
Flareon is notorious for being the (literal) redheaded step child of the Eevees for not being able to get a good STAB move for it's ridiculous attack stat. The best it got for the longest was fire fang in gen 3 which is pretty mediocre. Rapidash and Arcanine would also benefit due to their superior attack stats as well.

Magmar and Ninetails take a negligible hit while Charizard and Moltres take a small but noticble hit as well.

In the end, it would have just changed around the dynamics of fire types a small amount just from this change.

[Anonymous No.10703162]

>>10702995
Flareon sucks because he's slow and frail and lacked coverage.
The only way for him to have been relatively good was if GF made him a defensive fire type by putting that 130 stat on defense + some status moves, OR have him being the balanced eeveelution with the same stats all across the board.

[Anonymous No.10703175]

>>10703162
>The only way for him to have been relatively good was if GF made him a defensive fire type by putting that 130 stat on defense + some status moves
Worked real well for Slugma, right?

[Anonymous No.10703189]

>>10702151
Which is funny because in the anime likitung knows lick and shuts down Misty's entire team with it. I hope they realized that and fixed it for G/S/C.

[Anonymous No.10703195]

>>10703175
>50 HP
>120 DEF
Except a flareon with 130 defense would be bulkier than Magcargo + better defensive typing on top of hitting harder on both fronts AND being over twice faster.

[Anonymous No.10703197]

>>10703195
>defensive fire type
Just give it up, bro lol. Flareon is permagarbage.

[Anonymous No.10703198]

>>10703197
It would be better than slow frail mixed attacker, specially in gen 2 and 3.

[Anonymous No.10703202]

>>10703198
No, the only thing worse than a slow frail mixed attacker is a defensive fire/ice type.

[Anonymous No.10703212]

Fire should be a special attack. Fire has no physical form. You can't pick it up and touch it, it's non corporeal. But fire PUNCH on the other hand should absolutely be physical.

[Anonymous No.10703213]

>>10703202
Not really actually, flareon's fire moves are decent.
Pokemon were also just much bulkier in gen 1 & 2, 130 would actually allow it to survive an earthquake.

[Anonymous No.10703214]

>>10703213
Delusional.

[Anonymous No.10703218]

>>10703214
Not at all actually.

[Anonymous No.10703236]

>>10703218
>keep your Flareon in on Rhydon
>he Earthquakes you to death
>you use Toxic or some stupid shit
People who get really really into one mon are supremely mentally ill.

[Anonymous No.10703246]

>>10703236
>Fire spins to death
>Burns Rhydon with fire blast (essentially a death sentence to Rhydon)
You really don't know what you're talking to.

[Anonymous No.10703251]

>>10703246
Eevee fuckers deserve a swift death.

[Anonymous No.10703252]

>>10703251
Do you always sperg out when proven wrong?

[Anonymous No.10703263]

Why are you all talking about flareon when vaporeon is the clear best choice to evolve into? You would only ever use a flareon if you were doing some gimmick run.

[Anonymous No.10703272]

Thread has been overtaken by eeveefuckers. Ban these furry faggots.