It was a mistake releasing the Dreamcast in 1998.

[Anonymous No.10659370]

[Anonymous No.10659382]

It was a mistake releasing a such a cheap pos controller and system, people were reselling the console because they hated the controller.

[Anonymous No.10659396]

Was the Dreamcast powerful enough to run GTA III?

[Anonymous No.10659409]

dreamcast is 5.5 gen

[Anonymous No.10659410]

>>10659370
Might not be as powerful as PS2 but still way better than N64, PS1, and Saturn imo

[Anonymous No.10659460]

>>10659370
It was a mistake releasing the Dreamcast in Japan in 1998 first. Saturn was still popular there and sales were decent. Some Japanese Saturn fans felt cheated because they knew that a new system would mean the end of support for theirs. They should have released it in 1998 in USA first and then in 1999 in Japan.

>>10659382
Blatant lies. The controller is much bigger than a DualShock, but that's not a downside when it comes to my adult hands. I've heard bad things about it like that user's thumb can't naturally rest on the analog stick but I played some Rayman 2 and never had that issue. You can route the cable coming from the bottom through a clip on top to effectively change its direction. The batteries in VMU are extremely easy to change and it uses one of the most common battery types in existence: CR2032. I can purchase those at a fucking post office because virtually every PC motherboard uses them for RTC, so I can't for the life of me understand people saying that this is an "uncommon" battery type and complaining about the beep when batteries drain.

[Anonymous No.10659475]

in terms of release date, Sega did the worst thing for their fans.

in Japan the Saturn worked well.
then in 1998 Sega told them “Stop, you have to switch to the Dreamcast.”

in the West the Saturn had been abandoned since 1997.
and Sega tells them "you'll have to wait until 1999."

[Anonymous No.10659483]

>>10659409
>has comparable hardware to ps2
>released only 1 year before ps2
It's 6th gen. Stop coping.

[Anonymous No.10659486]

>>10659370
They should've keep it at 250 dollars MSRP instead of the 200 Stollar vouched for.
>>10659460
>It was a mistake releasing the Dreamcast in Japan in 1998 first. Saturn was still popular there and sales were decent. Some Japanese Saturn fans felt cheated because they knew that a new system would mean the end of support for theirs. They should have released it in 1998 in USA first and then in 1999 in Japan.
I'd really love to know the reasoning behind this. Did some shareholders think Japan would be cheated if Dreamcast launched in Japan last? Did they not see the moderate success the Saturn was there and how it flopped everywhere else?
>>10659483
>>has comparable hardware to ps2
PS2 has a number of advantages over Dreamcast, they aren't comparable.
>released only 1 year before ps2
November 1998 (dreamcast) to March 2000 (PS2) is more than a year, retard.

[Anonymous No.10659502]

>>10659486
In Japan
>Dreamcast: 27 November 1998
>PlayStation 2: 4 March 2000
1 year and 3 months of difference.

In the US
>Dreamcast: 9 September 1999
>PlayStation 2: 26 October 2000
1 year and 1 month of difference.

So, yes, that is 1 year. (Not including ads or pre-release either).

>PS2 has a number of advantages over Dreamcast, they aren't comparable.
PS2 is the stronger system, but they are cluster very closely in terms of hardware. Certainly they are more similar than anything last-gen.

[Anonymous No.10659530]

I honestly think Sega would have been best off never releasing the Dreamcast and partnering with Microsoft from the get go. Continue to support the Saturn in Japan, release worldwide whenever the OG Xbox released or later, have a coherent platform and don’t take on all the Dreamcast debt. They still exit the market, but it’s not as sloppy as it originally was.

[Anonymous No.10659535]

>>10659530
That's a great idea, then the market can be even more homogonized than it already is.

[Anonymous No.10659537]

>>10659535
That’s happening either way, sega was always retarded, they never had the cash the big companies did nor the IP obsession Nintendo had, and they were always going to exit the market. I wish they didn’t, although even if they made it to today in the console I think they would have been incredibly shitty like all the rest, but I don’t see anyway they don’t commit the dozen or so footguns they did other then a different universe (see attached /x/ picture).

[Anonymous No.10659570]

>>10659535
In our world that did happen, so what good was going solo after all?

[Anonymous No.10659582]

>>10659370
just rename this board name to "What If"

[Anonymous No.10659596]

>>10659537
Nintendo could always count on their handheld division to bring in money because those things were extremely cheap to produce, yet sold extremely well with high margins. It saved them during the 6th gen and then again in the 8th. They held an effective monopoly over the handheld market up until PSP released. We all know what was Microsoft's golden goose. Sega WOULD have had their arcade division to fall back on if popularity of arcades held up, but it didn't and they lost money everywhere.

[Anonymous No.10659762]

>>10659460
Not BS, it's the truth, people hated the controller so much that they got rid of the system a few months later after release. It was a really cheap system, even the controller port plastic wobbles.

[Anonymous No.10659767]

>>10659530
XBOX video output is very blurry and dark, specially if you use the scart cable, Naomi ports on the XBOX would have looked horrible.

[Anonymous No.10659773]

>>10659762
>>10659767
Have anything else to say about consoles you've never owned, snoyboy?

[Anonymous No.10659782]

>>10659537
segafags are deranged. and thats cool

[Anonymous No.10659795]

>>10659382
what is this idiotic revisionism? if this was meant to be a bait congratulations

[Anonymous No.10659836]

>>10659409
True
DC is just N64 without foggy and blurry textures

[Anonymous No.10659839]

>>10659773
I've owned all those systems, simpboy.

[Anonymous No.10659913]

>>10659836
Also much better framerate and higher resolution.

[Anonymous No.10660178]

>>10659409
That was what made it based. You got to have 5th gen games but with decent resolution and good framerates. You could play games on N64 or PS1 that chugged at 15fps and tons of LOD fog, or you could play on dreamcast at 60fps looking crispy as fuck.

[Anonymous No.10660882]

>>10659396
Yes, III, but i have doubts about san andreas

[Anonymous No.10660982]

Tens of millions bought the ps2 for nothing but to play dvds it’s a fact, people kinda hate or dismiss it but it was a selling feature at a time when dvd players were expensive still and the new format for rental and home theatre experience was very hot from the start. No other console came close that gen because of it

[Anonymous No.10661014]

>>10660982
This again?

[Anonymous No.10661019]

>>10661014
>dvd players cost a bare 150 dollars at the lowest
>ps2 cost 300 dollars + could serve as a console for the kids
I don't see how this refutes anything.

[Anonymous No.10661032]

>>10661019
Precisely. Lots of parents grabbed one because dad can buy a dvd player bc it also is a Xmas gift for the kids. It was a great piece of hardware for that. Perfect timing. I had cousins plenty of kids you al knew too had a ps2 , 2-3 games ever but tens of dvds and or rented movies still too

[Anonymous No.10661087]

>>10661019
>for nothing but to play dvds it's a fact

[Anonymous No.10661142]

>>10659483
Dreamcast is a more advanced design (especially the GPU), but PS2 has several dozen times higher specs when it comes to raw numbers.

[Anonymous No.10661213]

>>10659836
>DC is just N64 without foggy and blurry textures
N64 was DX7 tier at minimum, fully programmable T&L pipeline in hardware. It was closer to the OG Xbox in how advanced it was, it just didn't have enough memory because Nintendo chinked out on costs so you got blurry textures.

Dreamcast was like a DX6 tier PC, it didn't have any advanced features, other than being very efficient at what it could do. Mobile chipsets today use an offspring of the DC GPU.

PS2 was DX5 tier but it leveraged extreme parallelism and very high bandwidth memory. It was like 200 PS1s working in parallel at the same time.

[Anonymous No.10661220]

>>10659537
>sega was always retarded, they never had the cash the big companies did
They briefly did during the Sega Genesis era. Sega Genesis selling 30 to 40 million units outside of Japan was a huge cash infusion. So much so that they were outright able to solo sponsor F1 racing car teams with Sega branding. Sega blew their load on the Sega Saturn. They dumped huge amounts of money into it. The system was not efficiently designed either. A monument to Sega's arrogance.
Unfortunately the Saturn failed miserably (and the 32x), and put Sega in deep debt which they never really recovered from.

[Anonymous No.10661249]

>>10659370
It was a mistake not buying a Dreamcast in 1998.

[Anonymous No.10661252]

>>10661213
Dreamcast transcends directx and primitive 2d triangle accelerators.

[Anonymous No.10661254]

>>10661213
This is one of the most retarded comments I've read on here yet, imagine being shitheaded enough to actually think N64 was more advanced that Dreamcast graphically, imagine being even more regarded than that and thinking that the N64 was a direct x 7 level PC versus the DC's direct X 6 when the DC literally had Quake 3, Unreal Tournament and soldier of Fortune ported to it. N64 couldn't even handle a real port of Quake 2 and had to have a custom version of the game made from the ground up with many effects removed.

The GPU in the Dreamcast was a powerVR, in 1996 the powerVR PCX1 and then PCX2 cards where very good GPU's and the only ones on the market capable of going toe to toe with the 3dFX voodoo. The GPU the Dreamcast used was later repackaged into a desktop GPU in the form on the PowerVr Kyro cards which were solid budget GPU's by the year 2000's standards.

[Anonymous No.10661287]

>>10661254
>imagine being shitheaded enough to actually think N64 was more advanced that Dreamcast graphically

It's more advanced programmatically. You could do polygon subdivision entirely on the GPU. Good luck doing that on the Dreamcast or PS2. Obviously it won't graphically outdo another console that has 50 times the texturing performance, but that wasn't what I said either.

[Anonymous No.10661323]

>>10661287
Dreamcast GPU is far more advanced than the N64 one in many other ways that you seem to dismiss or ignore, not least of which is it's tile-based deferred rendering and it's multiple texturing and lighting units:

https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/dreamcast/

polygon subdivision on the GPU? Why do you think this is something the Dreamcast cannot do? And what does it matter if you have the CPU power to not need to house that part of the drawing on the GPU? DC's GPU has built in mip-mapping, alpha blending, anisotropic filtering and other advanced techniques the N64 could never pull off.

[Anonymous No.10661423]

>>10661213
>Dreamcast was like a DX6 tier PC, it didn't have any advanced features, other than being very efficient at what it could do.
Not true. Dreamcast can do transparency really, really well. It still looks much better than emulation when playing on actual hardware.

[Anonymous No.10661537]

>>10659370
Good Lord, 25 years and you retards still don't understand.

The Dreamcast was killed because of the mil-CD format making it possible to easily bootleg games without a mod chip. In a short matter of time, bootleggers across the country and world could've made counterfeit discs that would play on an unmodded system just like a real one. The second publishers got wind of this, it was all over. This is the ONLY reason the Dreamcast died, prior to this it was very popular and successful even if it didn't play DVDs (neither did the Gaycube and retards still bought that turd).

[Anonymous No.10661591]

>>10661014
now show the prices of DVD players before the PS2 released. the prices of the players took a hit BECAUSE of the PS2. This catalog is from December 2000 at the earliest, two months after the US PS2 release.

[Anonymous No.10661604]

>>10661537
>This is the ONLY reason the Dreamcast died
Stop baiting please. Or at least try harder than that.

[Anonymous No.10661607]

>>10661537
As usual, Sega shoots itself in the foot. There's no good reason why MIL-CDs had to be CDs. They could have just used a modified version of a GD-ROM disc where the inner part that holds CD-Audio data is much bigger and the outer portion that holds game data is much smaller. That way, the songs could still be played on a standard CD player (just like the audio track that tells you that the disc is only compatible with Sega Dreamcast if you put a GD-ROM in there), but the program code and other parts needed for karaoke functionality would be read from the outer portion. That way, no one would be able to boot unsigned code from a CD on an unmodified system and have it work.

[Anonymous No.10661630]

>>10661607
If Sega stayed on the market, they probably would have just released a revised Dreamcast model, and newer GD discs which patch the exploit so pirated discs can't be used. Piracy wasn't the main problem. It was minor. The big issue was that Dreamcast was only on the market for 15 months. Sega ran out of money and went bankrupt from their deep debt (which mostly came from the failed Sega Saturn).

[Anonymous No.10661769]

>>10659370
I always thought it was from the PS1 era since it had all the same games just a tiny bit better, it felt like its a premium PS1 but nothing more

[Anonymous No.10661864]

lol, the sega fanboys are pissed off.

>>10661323
>Dreamcast GPU is far more advanced than the N64 one in many other ways that you seem to dismiss or ignore,
already summarized all of it with the chip being very efficient (high quality textures, efficient memory usage, hardware hsr / tbdr / oit) and the chip being DX6 tier (multitexturing, bumpmapping, texture compression)

>polygon subdivision on the GPU? Why do you think this is something the Dreamcast cannot do?
it didn't have programmable vertex pipelines to do it on the GPU, it had to do those things on the CPU

>And what does it matter if you have the CPU power to not need to house that part of the drawing on the GPU?
if it was housed on the GPU, the CPU would then be free to do even more powerful game logic (more polygons, physics, effects, etc)

>advanced techniques the N64 could never pull off.
N64 GPU could be programmed to do a lot of very advanced techniques, it was just lacking the raw speed due to it being from 1995, and lacking enough memory because Nintendo chinked out.

>>10661423
post screenshot comparisons.

>>10661630
they did release a later model that patched the piracy hole, it didn't matter cause they were already fucked and had to stop production altogether.

[Anonymous No.10661918]

>>10661864
>post screenshot comparisons.
Sorry, I use a SCART RGB cable with my Dreamcast and I don't have anything that can capture it.

[Anonymous No.10661939]

>>10659396
Not without a lot of concessions. It wouldn’t really be the same game.

[Anonymous No.10661942]

>>10660882
No III and San Andreas would cripple the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10661943]

>>10661630
>If Sega stayed on the market, they probably would have just released a revised Dreamcast model, and newer GD discs which patch the exploit so pirated discs can't be used.
They DID release a revised Dreamcast model. VA2 Dreamcast units cannot boot games from CDs. But they are very rare, which just shows how badly Dreamcast sold towards the end of its lifespan. No change to the GD-ROM discs themselves was necessary to cut down on Dreamcast piracy.

[Anonymous No.10661946]

>>10661252
No it doesn’t. The actual sixth gen consoles blew it out of the water.

[Anonymous No.10661960]

>>10659370
sega was a one hit wonder with the genesis and their marketing, after that it was all downhill and shitty decisions which was their true form.

[Anonymous No.10661963]

>>10659396
Who cares about that nig sim, or any "open world" games in general? I'm more interested in finding out if Soul Calibur II could run at a decent frame rate and with little graphics compromises, seeing as they originally planned to release the arcade version on Naomi.

[Anonymous No.10661987]

>>10661014
>eight hundred dollars for a shitty portable DVD player.

[Anonymous No.10662001]

>>10661014
>>10660982
>>10661087

In 99 dvd players were the same price as a Dreamcast and one year later dvd players dropped in price bc the ps2 played both games and dvd and sold like crack. Every one of you fucking deniers knew someone who had a stack of movies next to their ps2 and less then three games over the console lifetime

[Anonymous No.10662006]

>>10661537
Never forget that this faggot tried to compare PS2 and GameCube sales. Yeah Nintendo sure did move GameCubes. You fucking moron, adults are talking here

[Anonymous No.10662010]

>>10662006
>>10661537

If you didn’t think ps2

[Anonymous No.10662014]

> If you didn’t think ps2
… sold on dvd playback alone, then I guess you are special kind of stupid, name one ps2 game that sold 100 million games - should be easy given the console has over 150million units in the wild. Ok ok - how about a 50 million seller?… do they have a 10 million sold game?

[Anonymous No.10662034]

>>10659460
I don't know whether the "people were reselling their Dreamcast in droves" bullshit is true or not(it sounds like bullshit certainly), but the Dreamcast controller sucking complete dick is no lie. It's literally the worst mainline controller ever made for any notable system. You have to point to shit like the Phillips CDi to even have something that competes with its shittiness. It's awkward, the shoulders buttons are hard, angular, and uncomfortable, the buttons themselves are made of cheap material that have poor durability/lifespan, and the wire comes out of it in the most dumb faggot spot possible, and no, the little cuck clip on the back doesn't make it any less stupid.

You really can find the weirdest contrarian diehard fans of even the worst garbage here on /vr/.

[Anonymous No.10662037]

>>10662001
>Every one of you fucking deniers knew someone who had a stack of movies next to their ps2 and less then three games over the console lifetime
No I've never met anyone like that with a PS2. PS2 wasn't a cheap DVD player so it was unlikely someone bought it for just that.

[Anonymous No.10662075]

>>10662014
While I do think DVD playback was a selling point of the PS2, your point here is kinda retarded and extrapolating data to try to make a point it doesn't apply to. The PS2 sold 158 million units in its entire lifetime. There weren't 158 million active consumers at any given time. No video game on the planet that has ever sold independently of a console launch has, to my knowledge, ever sold enough copies to be sold to over 50% of the entire market that had ever purchased the console. That would be ludicrous.

Second, the reason there weren't huge sellers like that when compared to, say, the Gamecube relative to its total console sales is because the PS2 had a much more vast library and also a much longer lifespan.

Gamecube
21.74M units sold(2001-2007, sales strongest 2001-2004 before intense decline)
Window of popularity: 3 years
Total games released: 640
Highest selling game: Super Smash Bros: Melee(7.41M copies, 34.0% of total lifetime market)

PS2
Total Units Sold: 158M(2000-2013, sales remained consistently high until about 2009 where they dipped but remained popular)
Window of popularity: 9 years
Total games released: 4,000+
Highest selling game: GTA: San Andreas(17.33M copies, 11.0% of total lifetime market)

That's why the PS2 may not dwarf the gamecube necessarily in a game to game comparison but overall, since it had triple the active lifespan and about 8 times the amount of games, the numbers look "thinned out" compared to a console that only had a short window of popularity and a few big hit titles.

[Anonymous No.10662079]

>>10662034
The only truly shitty thing on the DC controller was the d-pad (granted, compared to the Dualshock d-pad it was still stellar) and the lack of buttons. Everything else was either arguable or OK.

>>10662037
I don't know if anyone bought the PS2 exclusively to play DVDs, but I've met a lot of people whose first DVD player was the PS2. Being two huge multimedia upgrades in one package was something that really drove the sales. The Dreamcast wasn't even on the map for most normal people.

[Anonymous No.10662120]

>>10659370
PS2, it was underpowered and didn't have as much features as the og xbox did.

[Anonymous No.10662124]

>>10659370
It was a mistake releasing the Dreamcast so early because it was easily pirated. Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10662129]

>>10662075
>>10662014
>>10662010
To add onto this as a much more relevant snapshot of whether people were "just buying the PS2 for DVDs", it's better we take a look at its total video game software sales relative to its consumer base rather than how well individual titles sold(since I already covered in this post why that isn't really relevant). So this is how many games per consumer were owned

Master System: 20.9
Saturn: 16.74
Genesis: 16.00
Vita: 10.00
PS2: 9.81
GCN: 9.59
PSX: 9.43
Wii: 9.05
PS3: 8.92
PS4: 8.76
Switch: 8.25
NES: 8.08
Dreamcast: 8.00
SNES: 7.72
Wii U: 7.52
XBOX360: 7.50
XBOX: 6.88
N64: 6.83
XBOX1: 6.55
DS: 6.16
3DS: 5.03
Atari(2600): 4.80
Colecovision: 4.75
GBA: 4.63
Gameboy: 4.22
PSP: 3.88
Atari(7800): 3.77
Intellivision: 3.00
Atari(5200): 1.04

Seems your theory doesn't hold up. People have actually bought more games per PS2 unit sold than any other 6th gen console. Oops. Top kek.

[Anonymous No.10662137]

>>10662034
You vs. my hands. I wonder who I should believe... hmm...

[Anonymous No.10662153]

>>10662137
Congratulations, you can hold an uncomfortable hunk of plastic and take a picture of it. You proved exactly nothing. Here is another controller being held by someone. Surely that means the Wu-Tang Clan Thuganomics 360 controller is a bigger winner in design and comfort.

[Anonymous No.10662168]

>>10662153
See, here's the thing. I can find your pic with reverse iamge search, so it's likely that you don't have that controller and that you've never even held it in your hands. You say that it's bad just because someone else told you that it's bad. How do I know if your opinion about the Dreamcast controller is any different?

[Anonymous No.10662182]

>>10662168
I say it's bad because I can tell it's bad by its design. You don't need to be a genius to see why that controller sucks.

I legitimately could not possibly care less whether you believe me or not that I owned a Dreamcast controller and know it's an absolute pile of shit. I owned a Dreamcast both near release for pirating games like MvC2, and I specifically bought a Dreamcast and(reluctantly) the controller with it because it was the only accurate port of Street Fighter 3: Third Strike at the time. Trying to play and practice Third Strike on a Dreamcast controller was more than enough for me to learn that it was complete fucking shit and incredibly uncomfortable for anything even moderately intense or prolonged.

Most people with any experience with it agree with me whereas you're just some nostalgia faggot pretending it doesn't suck ass.

[Anonymous No.10662183]

>>10662129
>Saturn: 16.74

lmao, this list has got to be bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10662189]

>>10662075
I wonder if the fact the ps2 played dvds contributed to its insanely long lifespan. So yeah, my point validated as well by you thanks

[Anonymous No.10662190]

>>10662183
It is. He's making shit up.

[Anonymous No.10662234]

>>10662079
>The only truly shitty thing on the DC controller was the d-pad (granted, compared to the Dualshock d-pad it was still stellar) and the lack of buttons. Everything else was either arguable or OK.
The Dpad is shit. The thumbstick has no ridges or grip to its texture so it's instead a cheap hard plastic with nubs on it which sucks. The wire location is shit. The buttons are low durability and turn mushy with use. The ergonomics are shit and force you to hold your index fingers at more rigid angles than is natural. The shoulder buttons themselves are stiff and angular. Even the start button location sucks and it's right in the center of the controller rather than close to your thumb.

It's just a shitty controller with a giant fuck you adapter thing in the middle that pushes its actual important button and pad placements in all the wrong directions. The only people who could possibly like it are casual gamers that don't care about precision or comfort.

[Anonymous No.10662235]

>>10662129
Theory holds up like the foundation of a house. The fact it sold 9titles per console is due to the fact the thing was around for so long games became cheap enough to own, plus the rental market causing the buy rate to look bigger. Millions of stores rented ps2 games don’t forget. And the console was a success world wide whereas the other ones you are comparing to were not successes outside of one or two regions.

Numbers are skewed due to the longevity of ps2 and it stayed stocked in stores longer than other consoles too.

Even if you want to pretend dvd wasn’t a factor Sony itself released the console with it knowing that the feature would separate it from the pack and aid their multimedia offerings.” By including a built-in DVD player, Sony was able to position the PS2 as a multimedia device that could play movies in addition to video games, giving it a competitive advantage over other gaming consoles at the time.”

They tried the same strategy with blu ray and ps3 but aimed to profit off the bat which started them off very slow that gen.

[Anonymous No.10662242]

>>10662183
>>10662190
It's not. You can look up the numbers yourself. The Saturn sold 9.26M consoles and over 150M software sales.

[Anonymous No.10662250]

>>10662189
That post did the exact opposite of validate your point but you're too low IQ to realize it. Yes, DVD playability probably helped its sales, and yet it still sold more games per consumer than its competitors. So your argument that it was sold exclusively as a DVD player is wrong and retarded. If that were true and a sizeable chunk of PS2 consumers weren't purchasing any games, that number would be abnormally low. It's not. It's higher than normal.

[Anonymous No.10662258]

>>10662183
The Sega Saturn was a lot more popular in Japan than it was in the US.

[Anonymous No.10662267]

>>10662250
There were a bunch of popular movies also being sold as 'PS2 titles' as part of some ad campaign. That does skew the results of PS2 software sales as a result.

[Anonymous No.10662268]

We got ECCO DOTF, Shenmue 1&2 and Rez out of it.

Just a shame E & R were ported to the PS2 instead of the Xbox.

Fuck I hate the PS2.

[Anonymous No.10662275]

>>10662235
I’ll add - this attracted the Japanese along with supporting a console that is “theirs”. Ps2 as a DVD player became less of a selling feature as the console aged but off the bat, so many ppl got one with games and dvds for the first two Xmas, and can’t be denied how many non gaming homes owned one. Quite simply there isn’t 150m hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers supported game consoles and you can see the numbers. The average gamer base is say is 30-50million and anything above that really was breaking through to mainstream and casual. Ps2 killed the Dreamcast with the feature, after the Dreamcast was gone the Xbox came which also offered a dongle to play dvd (because Sony patent prevented the feature from being natively allowed). And the 360 made certain to include DVD mulling blu ray support but ultimately settling on competeting for the format war and losing with hddvd

[Anonymous No.10662289]

>>10662250
You must be slow - has anyone explained how time works for you? Ps2 had a 13 year lifespan. That’s a lot of time to sell games. It pretty much had no real competition until the 360 came out. Dreamcast died and Xbox 360 came five years after

[Anonymous No.10662295]

>>10662235
Those are all really weak points. First of all, dipshit, rental markets hurt video games sales, not improve them. The store buys 1 copy and rents it out to hundreds of people that satisfy their consumer need without buying a fresh new copy. The rental industry as a whole is a loss for them because the advertisement doesn't offset the demand that a lack of rental options would drive.

Second, the bulk of software sales for the PS2 all happened during its strongest years, not in some kind of bargain bin rush near the end where its sales exploded. To give scale, by 2009/2010, it was doing 10% of its sales yearly in software during its normal active years between 2001-2008. Hardly bulking up its software numbers. Even if we entirely eliminated its final few years, it would still come out even or ahead of its competitors.

The original argument is "a huge portion of people bought PS2's just as DVD players" and the statistics don't support this argument. They say the exact opposite. Only a tiny minority would have done that.

[Anonymous No.10662297]

>>10662267
Such as? What year? Proof that these were counted as PS2 software sales? Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up?

[Anonymous No.10662303]

>>10662289
And this relates to your argument how exactly? Even if we isolated any given single year of the PS2 and compared its software to console sales, it would still be just as high. It doesn't matter whether you take it year to year or take the entire lifespan of sales. Your argument just sucks and is wrong. Objectively. Empirically.

[Anonymous No.10662315]

>>10662129
1300 blockbusters each buy 30 tony hawk titles. Yep this attach rate is real and representative of the install base.

Imagine 2023 and not able to draw proper conclusions. These were before digital download stores. And during the rental BOOM. Not only did stores rent DVDs and games by the crate but you could even rent consoles. Zoomers will never understand what it was like. Prob why you’ve also never been over to anyone else’s house and seen their ps2 in the basement with a stack of movies next to it. Even if your parents bought you one , you hung out with your buddies or gf watching movies on it arguably more than you did playing it. Sure some of you guys are part of the 10 game plus attach rate and 100000 hours on your ps2. But 150m ps2 owners were not like you. Plenty in fact were spoiled rotten bastards who didn’t even like video games but their parents bought them one for Christmas. Just was of the time.

[Anonymous No.10662319]

Any alternate scenario hypothesizing ignores the sheer amount of marketing money Sony was dumping at this time. I don’t see how sega ever gets past that, we’re talking orders of magnitude more financial resources + the DVD stuff as everyone else has mentioned. It was always gonna end how it did I think, maybe you would have squeaked another year or two out of the Dreamcast though, bummer we didn’t get that.

[Anonymous No.10662332]

>>10662234
>The Dpad is shit.
yeah, but still better than on any Sony controller ever

>The thumbstick has no ridges or grip to its texture
Neither did the X360 pad and that was considered the most awesome thing ever when it came out.

>The wire location is shit.
arguable

>The buttons are low durability and turn mushy with use.
true for every other controller ever.

>The ergonomics are shit and force you to hold your index fingers at more rigid angles than is natural.
only difference is that I hold my hands upwards not angled, it makes no difference, it's just different from other controllers.

>The shoulder buttons themselves are stiff and angular.
if anything they are not angular, they point straight up

>Even the start button location sucks
it's on the center, same as on the Saturn and the megadrive 6 button pad and the snes and all sony controllers and the x360 guide button etc etc etc.

>It's just a shitty controller with a giant fuck you adapter thing in the middle
your mother is a shitty controller with a giant fuck you adapter.

you need to chill the fuck out, man.

[Anonymous No.10662335]

>>10662315
>1300 blockbusters each buy 30 tony hawk titles. Yep this attach rate is real and representative of the install base.
You know you're losing an argument when you have to exaggerate this hard. They don't buy that many copies, first of all. You know nothing about the rental market. Second, if these rental markets didn't exist, you don't think 30 kids out of the literal hundreds of kids that they rent that game out to over its lifespan would have caved in and bought a copy if they didn't have the option to rent? I'm typing to actual idiots here. The installbase would be EVEN LARGER if these rental options didn't exist. They literally lower the overall number of sales because they are feeding a market of hundreds with a handful of copies.

>Imagine 2023 and not able to draw proper conclusions.
Clearly talking about yourself here, dipshit. You bring up the weakest dumbshit fringe arguments and treat them like thorough refutations. In fact, a lot of you do that.

>Zoomers will never understand what it was like.
I'm probably older than you. I find it weird you even said this considering you're spouting clearly false bullshit about boomer years like "rental stores had 30 copies of popular video games to rent out" and "everyone used their PS2 as a DVD player". I don't know what kind of poor ass people you hung out with, but I was middle class and my friend's parents all owned DVD players.

[Anonymous No.10662337]

>>10662242
>The Saturn sold 9.26M consoles
bullshit, they didn't even make more than 7 million

>and over 150M software sales.
ha haha ahahahah
source: my ass

[Anonymous No.10662341]

>>10662303
My argument is basically there was much more ps2 sold to non gamers and that’s reflected in software sales vs hardware sales. And that helped succeed for Sony in ways outside of gaming that almost killed Nintendo as well. I don’t argue it wasn’t a gamers console it was where gamers went but also so many non gamers had one

[Anonymous No.10662348]

>>10662337
https://segaretro.org/images/f/fe/AnnualReport1998_English.pdf

[Anonymous No.10662356]

>>10662332
>yeah, but still better than on any Sony controller ever
Until fighting game people start bringing Dreamcast controllers on tour instead of DualShocks, I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

[Anonymous No.10662357]

>>10662341
>My argument is basically there was much more ps2 sold to non gamers and that’s reflected in software sales vs hardware sales.
The problem for you is that that isn't true. It's not reflected in the software sales vs hardware sales. It says the exact opposite. It says the average owner of a PS2(ALL owners, including the nogaemz DVD player people you're claiming were a significant portion of the consumer base) owned more video games than their sixth gen competitors.

[Anonymous No.10662363]

>>10662242
150 million games sold? Then they would have been out of debt because of the billions they would have made.

[Anonymous No.10662371]

>>10662357
It’s simply not true. It wasn’t in the time that it took to kill the Dreamcast. First two three years sales which was when the dc does it was a lot of hardware outselling software. The first three years they didn’t have many games sell more than average best selling games of that same time period, just meaning there was same amount of gamers but hardware was outselling and also the platform itself replaced the rest of the competition.

[Anonymous No.10662379]

>>10662371
What the fuck am I even reading

[Anonymous No.10662380]

>>10662348
>segaretro

automatically confirmed as bullshit, then.

[Anonymous No.10662392]

>>10662337
>>10662183
>>10662190
These casuals don't get it. The Saturn was a big hit in Japan and Japan is not like the US. They weren't casual fags like the US and Europe were in the 90's. The average Japanese gamer owned a lot more games and were proper hobbyists that had collections. In fact, it's still like that where they're generally much more dedicated consumers and buy more games than foreigners do.

[Anonymous No.10662405]

>>10662380
It's literally a copy of the annual financial report direct from Sega you fucking moron. You retards try so hard not to be wrong and spend so little effort actually learning anything.

[Anonymous No.10662407]

>>10662371
Dies-not does. (Autocorrect)

The time period of discussion is first two or three (if generous ) years of the ps2 bc the Dreamcast was over fairly quickly after its arrival. Total 13 year lifetime yeah the ps2 sold 150mln units and have a tonne of games, it obviously did better than a console with two years. I am not arguing that ps2 wasn’t a successful game machine I love mine. I still had my original box until a few years ago. But when it launched it was tough to get first bit but then it was the gift that year and was off to the races after that.

If you were in your high school years and were previously a gamer from n64 and psx if you wanted a new console if you weren’t buying yourself you would have tried to sell your parents on a Dreamcast or ps2 and they were gonna probably lean on the Sony. If you worked for your money what were you going to buy yourself that year the Dreamcast if you didn’t own one or the ps2 that you could also get into DVDs finally?

Dreamcast sales dried up quick unfortunately. I was one of those guys who had over 25-30 Dreamcast games then suddenly got 0 day ftp access to rips and was trading them back in. Wish I kept them now. If you had any tech know how back then and were into gaming and had a Dreamcast you probably had a cd burner or knew a guy and got into rips.

[Anonymous No.10662410]

>>10662363
Anon...they don't keep the money from other people making games...

[Anonymous No.10662432]

>>10662407
The Dreamcast, in my recollection, had the issue of competing with the Playstation 1's prime. Not the PS2. It was never a consideration between Dreamcast or PS2. The Dreamcast's hype had already been killed by the best years of the PlayStation. It barely even showed up on the radar. By the time the PS2 rolled around, the Dreamcast was already in its death throes.

[Anonymous No.10662569]

>>10662183
Saturn games became dirty cheap at the end of its lifespan.

[Anonymous No.10662575]

>>10662337
>bullshit, they didn't even make more than 7 million
Where is you source on this?

[Anonymous No.10662579]

>>10659370
The Dreamcast is what the Saturn should have been and the Saturn is what the Sega CD should have been.

[Anonymous No.10662612]

>Dreamcast was purposely and actively meant to be the next generation
>Dreamcast arrived 1 year before PS2 and has similar hardware to PS2
>Dreamcast fags: Omg it's like a special snowflake magical generation 5.5 console!!!!!!!!

Why are they so embarrassing and creepy?

[Anonymous No.10662653]

>>10659370
>480p
>perfect blend of analog and digital tech
>top tier games
>SEGA already ostracized themselves from retailers after the genesis billion add ons, Nomad, and Saturn
>Dreamcast was doomed due entirely to the parent company rather than console itself
Such a sad tale. The VMU was poised to take over the Tamagachi niche with mini games. The lack of innate rumble was unfortunate, but considering it was '98 it wasn't a huge thing.

[Anonymous No.10662663]

>>10662612
I am indifferent to Sega and I would consider the Dreamcast a late gen 5 console because its entire life cycle pretty much started and ended before Gen 6 ever happened. It didn't feel like any kind of evolution of gaming. It felt like a Playstation competitor. I know other people separate these systems by technology, but I separate them by advancements in the standards of gaming and the Dreamcast just didn't really move the needle.

[Anonymous No.10662665]

If you don’t like Sega consoles I genuinely don’t believe you should be on this board, there’s other websites for you

[Anonymous No.10662721]

>>10662663
>the Dreamcast just didn't really move the needle.
Are you fucking kidding me? It's one of the most influential consoles of all time. The VMU pioneering second screen functionality. The controller layout which set the standard a decade ahead of its time. The first console with full online gaming. True arcade perfection. Voice chat. You have to be a colossal retard to claim what you just did.

[Anonymous No.10662726]

>>10662001
Nope. Didn't know anyone like that. But only because I didn't know any imaginary people that only exist in youtubers minds decades later.

[Anonymous No.10662751]

>>10660982
>>10662001
Yeah, fuck zoomers. The ps2 having a cheap dvd player made it killer hardware back then. Of course the games were popular too but dvd functionality really moved the console for a wider demographic.

[Anonymous No.10662840]

>>10662721
You can't read. The Dreamcast didn't establish any kind of standard and it didn't move the needle in gaming. It had some technological potential, but it was stuff that wasn't experienced by the wider gaming community and developers themselves didn't get to tap into the Dreamcast's potential before it died.

>The controller layout which set the standard a decade ahead of its time.
lol? It's widely considered one of the worst official controllers ever created. The Playstation DualShock controller, which came out before the Dreamcast, is the one that set the standard for all controllers to follow, numbnuts. They're ALL experimental dualshock controllers, and eventually everyone settled on it as the standard.

>Online gaming and voice chat!
This was stuff that the video game companies were already openly transitioning towards and something PC gaming had already done for a while, so it wasn't some new groundbreaking thing to gamers, especially since the Dreamcast sold like shit in the US. If anything, Sega made a pretty critical error in being too eager to jump on this technology as a selling point. They went all in, attaching a shitty 56K modem on their console at great expense and the technology just wasn't stable or good enough to create a truly unique experience that a gamer would buy the console over. Most Dreamcast games weren't even multiplayer. And then the internet speeds quickly blew 56K out of the water and just totally obsoleted the junk Dreamcast hardware. Just bad luck and bad timing.

But no, the Dreamcast had no real impact on gaming culture in the US. It was a failed experiment that most people didn't even notice.

[Anonymous No.10662847]

>>10662840
I posted facts. I'm not even reading your post because you cannot change reality.

[Anonymous No.10662874]

>>10662751
>The ps2 having a cheap dvd player made it killer hardware back then. Of course the games were popular too but dvd functionality really moved the console for a wider demographic.
Where did this definitely wrong and stupid fucking history revisionist retcon spawn from? There is literally, LITERALLY not one shred of evidence to support this fucking retarded fake claim. I just know there's some stupid fucking TikTok or YouTube faggot that did some kind of "Did you know?" gaming video that is making everyone repeat this stupid shit.

[Anonymous No.10662881]

>>10662847
>I didn't read what you wrote and refuse to argue with you
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.10662887]

yjk the last two posts before this one is the same guy

[Anonymous No.10662893]

>>10662887
Wow you're a fucking genius, dipshit. You're telling me the guy who posted one minute apart on a board that is slow as balls is probably the same guy? What a fucking genius sleuth you are.

[Anonymous No.10662903]

>a single thread poisoning faggot confirmed
gottem

[Anonymous No.10662915]

>>10662903
Oh no I was trying so hard to hide the fact that I responded to two different posts but we have a literal genius detective on our hands. And he says I'm poison too because he's too stupid to actually use his brain to form a coherent refutation, whatever will I do?

[Anonymous No.10662918]

>>10662579
SEGA CD had an actual Sonic game though

[Anonymous No.10662931]

>>10662918
>CD
>Good
I heard better things about 3D Blast than this one.

[Anonymous No.10662965]

>>10662663
I agree to this, it feels more like the Dreamcast was meant to compete with the N64 and PS1, not the PS2. If you were actually around during that time, it was basically seen as the third console.

[Anonymous No.10663025]

"No, it's actually a *bad* thing that the PS2 had a DVD player and backwards compatibility when the competition didn't"

Nintendo and Sega aren't sending their brightest folks.

[Anonymous No.10663034]

>The next-gen console designed to compete with Sony didn't actually feel like it was competing with the PS2
Another self-own.

[Anonymous No.10663207]

>>10662392
>The Saturn was a big hit in Japan

Outselling the N64 for ONE SINGLE MONTH in its ENTIRE LIFETIME does not make the console a big hit.

[Anonymous No.10663215]

>>10662874
>Where did this definitely wrong and stupid fucking history revisionist retcon spawn from?

It comes from people who were actually alive and talked to normal people - friends and family - when the PS2 came out. People didn't give no shits about the Dreamcast because the PS2 was advertised with some bullshit promo videos showing graphics far in excess of what the machine could do, and because it could also play DVDs that most people simply did not yet have.

[Anonymous No.10663218]

>Saturn 5.75 million in Japan
>Nintendo 64 5.54 million in Japan

[Anonymous No.10663234]

More Dreamcast less irrelevant planets

[Anonymous No.10663239]

d r e a m c a s t

[Anonymous No.10663246]

>>10659382
Agree. I remember back when it released the controller was extremely off-putting.
Like if they're going to make something that clunky with unnecessary bullshit attached, then SEGA is clearly out of their minds.. especially following the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.10663271]

>>10661963
Only you dude, that's why everyone else bought a PS2 and SEGA became a PlayStation 2 third party. ; )

[Anonymous No.10663439]

>>10663207
Correct. It's the outselling it there overall (according to some sources massively) and having a library several times the size that did that.

[Anonymous No.10663497]

>>10662965
Naw DC is quite clearly 6th GEn, this should be obvious considering Sega released a gen 5 console - the Saturn. Dreamcast has more Vram than the PS2, it has more total system Ram than the Gamecube, Games like Soul Calibur and Shenmmue 2 look as good as anything that came out on PS2 or GC. If the Dreamcast survived longer you would have seen even better looking games on the system as devs got better at programming for it and extracting the most from the hardware.

How anyone can think that a system that spec wise matches up with 6th gen consoles and whos creator already had a 5th gen console 5 years before it isn't a 6th gen console boggles the mind. When the Dreamcast first launched I used to go to the electronics store in my town after school to play the Demos and the graphics blew my mind as someone who had a PS1 at home and played N64 at my friends house a lot.

[Anonymous No.10663535]

>>10663239
Rez 2 when? Use the same graphics, just more songs an multiplayer. Make it like Journey where you encounter other players randomly.

[Anonymous No.10663592]

>>10662918
And it was ass.

[Anonymous No.10663635]

>>10660982
My fiance at the time pre-ordered one for me as a Christmas present in 1997. DVD players were either the same cost or more at that time. We used it as our primary DVD player until we broke up in 2003.

[Anonymous No.10663684]

>>10663635
Not 1997. 1999.

Just noticed my error.

[Anonymous No.10663745]

>>10659460
The size of the controller wasn't what people complained about you dipshit liar

Dreamcast sucked because the joystick sucked and there's only 1 of them. Plus the shoulder buttons are placed in the dumbest location possible

Xbox original had a larger controller and everyone liked it

Sounds like you're the one with the blatant lies

[Anonymous No.10663750]

>>10662124
I remember my friends playing multiple CD-R rips of Dreamcast games in May of 2000. I was in total shock that this was already possible to do in less than a year.

[Anonymous No.10663770]

>>10659370
Because of the poor sales of the saturn SEGA was going to die anyway and we got a very good console in return and in those 2 years we got some amazing games, so I don't think it was a mistake at all.

[Anonymous No.10664005]

>>10663497
Both Shenmue games had plenty of framerate issues on the Dreamcast hardware. That’s the upper limit of what the console was capable of. There was no magic that would make the aging NAOMI-based chipset competitive with the newer, more powerful consoles.

[Anonymous No.10664024]

They released the sega Genesis early and even though it was weaker then the SNES it did well. They thought they could do that again.

[Anonymous No.10664134]

>>10664024
>They released the sega Genesis early
The same could be said of all Sega consoles

[Anonymous No.10664168]

>>10664005
What nonsense, Just to show how retarded what you said is:

Metal Gear Solid 2 is one of the best looking games on PS2 and yet it runs at a buttery smooth 60fps. Die Hard Vendetta looks like literal shit and has frame drops into the teens regularly and at times even drops into single digits. So in your opinion Die Hard Vendetta is the upper limit of what the console was capable of?

You clearly understand very little about programming.

[Anonymous No.10664171]

>>10659370
The biggest mistake by sega was the 32x. Followed by the horrible pricing and botched release of the saturn. The saturn itself as a console was just fine.

[Anonymous No.10664253]

>>10664171
>put cartridge slot on sega saturn
>cant play sega genesis games on it
bigger mistake desu

[Anonymous No.10664259]

>>10663497
>this should be obvious considering Sega released a gen 5 console - the Saturn
You can release more than one console in a generation. The rest of your post is just talking about technological advancements the system made. It feels weird to me that people separate console generations strictly by hardware or technology and not by the actual era they resided in. By this argument, shouldn't most of the Nintendo systems past the SNES be considered lower generation consoles since, speaking strictly by hardware, they're generally inferior compared to their current gen counterparts?

To me, the Dreamcast is firmly a late 5th gen console in place with the Playstation and N64. It didn't make a big enough splash in the US to be considered a "new generation of gaming" and it mostly acted as a sort of HD port machine late in the 5th gen cycle. It barely has any exclusives of note.

[Anonymous No.10664280]

>>10663215
>It comes from people who were actually alive and talked to normal people - friends and family - when the PS2 came out.
I did that and not one person, not one, ever owned a PS2 as a DVD player or even knew someone that did. I have literally never heard this mentioned until after the PS2 was discontinued and only ever on the internet. The PS2 is a shitty DVD player. I know this because I tried using it once like that myself and the sound quality is fucking terrible and no person who is a serious movie watcher would find it to be a suitable replacement for an actual cheapo DVD player.

Sure, they might buy their kid one and share it if they're poor and use it as a combo video game console and DVD player, but this idea that there was a huge section of the market that exclusively used their PS2 as a DVD player is 100% bonafide unfiltered bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10664284]

>>10659762
>even the controller port plastic wobbles.
Quit lying.

[Anonymous No.10664293]

>>10659913
and fantastic sound

[Anonymous No.10664310]

>>10659836
>>10659913
>>10664293
and games

[Anonymous No.10664472]

>>10663750
Yup. Even more shocking was when I was able to play SNES games on CD-R via the DreamSNES. Amazing that I was able to play a Nintendo game on a Sega console way before I could play Sega games on a Nintendo console.

[Anonymous No.10664545]

>>10661987
This is October 2000. 99 percent of people are still using CRTs and VCRs. 95 percent of PC monitors are CRTs. Flat screens are the hot new thing. Portable video in 2000 meant a Sony Watchman or watchman knockoff, or those conversion/mini van and SUV TVs which were little CRTs mounted to the headliner (sometimes the console).
That dvd player is exceptionally thin with an attached LCD monitor. 800 bucks is ludicrous even back then, but I get it, that’s a “premium” item in 2000 and aimed at boomers with a lot of disposable income. We all know the kind of dinks who would buy shit like this back then. It could also double as your main dvd player because they had video out.
Most laptops with a DVD drive in 1999/2000 were top of the line and according to a few print ads I just researched, they were going for around $2000 dollars on average, and were limited to a 4:3 screen (typically). You also have to wonder how well those laptops were actually doing uncompressed DVD playback.

In short, definitely ridiculous but not too ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.10664556]

>>10664171
>The saturn itself as a console was just fine.
There is a flaw. The Saturn cost way too much to develop and create. It was expensive to manufacture. Sega lost money on each Saturn sold and lowered the retail price just to fight Playstation head to head. The Sarurn sales in Japan were not enough to cover the total investment of creating the Sega Saturn. Sega is not a huge hardware company. They were a gaming company with a moderate amount of funds. This battle against Sony crippled Sega. Saturn needed to be redesigned to be more economical (like what they did with Sega Dreamcast).

Sony was a massive juggernaut sized Electronics Company. Sony lost money on each Playstation sold, but that money lost was like a "drop in the bucket" for them since they were a massive company compared to Sega. They could afford to lose a few billion dollars and not blink. Especially if it meant crushing Sega. In comparison A few billion lost would cripple a small company like Sega.

Nintendo is the ONLY console manufacturer who makes a tiny profit for each console sold because they are VERY STRICT about keeping the manufacturing and pricing down. They want it to be affordable even if it means lowering the spec of the console in some way. There are even interviews where engineers said they had debates with Nintendo Executives on "how many metal screws" they were allowed to use in designing the N64. Nintendo was very strict about controlling costs. It's what kept them in the game even to this day.

[Anonymous No.10664559]

>>10664259
Dreamcast may have came out in late Gen 5/early Gen 6. But it's hardware is definitely Gen 6 hardware. Particularly the GPU.

[Anonymous No.10664615]

>>10663246
They just had to reuse the Saturn 3D controller and peripherals, the VMU wasn't worth it.

[Anonymous No.10664617]

>>10661604
It unironically is. No other issue was insurmountable. It sold very well at launch and many people already had it before PS2 dropped. GD-ROMs were smaller in capacity than DVDs, but the full DVD was rarely used and when it was it was usually because of video that could be cut or compressed just like they did on the Gamecube.

Nothing made investors (publishers) shit the bed worse than the threat of piracy back then. Before long you'd be able to bootleg every new Dreamcast release right at launch and sell it to people for pennies on the dollar. Who's going to spend millions developing a game and then sales are cut in half or worse by bootleggers?

>>10661607
I think MIL-CDs were really meant to be CDs first and the Dreamcast aspect was just a fun bonus, so they still had to be CDs. Nobody had the foresight to see it as a workaround for piracy. People find exploits in almost all systems eventually, this one just happened to be much less labor and knowledge intensive to utilize. I mean, shit, in Windows XP if you sign on the internet without patching it to Service Pack 3 first you will get invaded with viruses immediately. People can't forsee everything, shit happens.

>>10662006
>>10662010
And your points is? Gamecube sold really close to the original XBOX despite not having DVD capability on the Gamecube and being known to be less powerful and having a pretty shitty library of non-Nintendo exclusives. The Dreamcast also had the luxury of being in a ton of homes before the PS2 launched. Nobody ever said the PS2 wasn't a damn good system that was the clear console of choice for the generation, but the Dreamcast didn't need to be snuffed out if it wasn't for the MIL-CD exploit being discovered.

[Anonymous No.10664620]

>>10662120
Memes. In practice, there was rarely a noticeable graphics improvement on XBOX, the controllers sucked, and the library was nowhere near as big.

[Anonymous No.10664624]

>>10664620
Xbox games universally had better image quality, more advanced shaders, and often better framerate

[Anonymous No.10664642]

So who owned one back in the day? what are your favorite games ?

[Anonymous No.10664647]

>>10664624
In practice the XBOX games did not look any better. Only studios that put special effort into the XBOX port made them look better, and that was rare. It also often meant the game would launch on XBOX months or even years later like with GTA. Sometimes they would even be worse because the PS2 devs were better, Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit 2 was a very notable example where the PS2 was the best version period even including the PC.

Spend less time watching Linus Tech Tips next time and worry about things that matter. XBOX didn't have Gran Turismo, immediate fail.

[Anonymous No.10664657]

>>10664280
>I did that and not one person, not one, ever owned a PS2 as a DVD player or even knew someone that did.

The friends in your head don't count.

[Anonymous No.10664660]

>>10664617
>this one just happened to be much less labor and knowledge intensive to utilize.
it was something like 4 different exploits packed together, in the first two years of piracy you couldn't even make games self booting, you had to use the Utopia boot disc (which itself was a cd changer demo from the Katana SDK).

[Anonymous No.10664661]

>>10664647
>In practice the XBOX games did not look any better.
They did, I have both systems. I preferred PS2 overall but PS2 has shit image quality and worse textures and lighting in many cases. I’m sure you can cherry-pick some multiplat games where PS2 was lead and the Xbox version was lazy.
I don’t get my opinions on games from YouTubers.

[Anonymous No.10664667]

>>10662124
Wrong.
>>10663750
>I remember my friends playing multiple CD-R rips of Dreamcast games in May of 2000
Liar
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/9765251/#9768932
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/9765251/#9770078
https://desuarchive.org/vr/thread/9765251/#9770293
>Dreamcast’s copy protection was broken by Utopia’s Boot Disc on June 22nd of 2000.
>That June, Utopia dumped the first ripped Dreamcast games online – Dead or Alive 2 and Soul Calibur

[Anonymous No.10664668]

>>10664617
> in Windows XP if you sign on the internet without patching it to Service Pack 3 first you will get invaded with viruses immediately
That kind of direct attack from the internet is mostly a myth, your router protects your computer from direct attack. Attack from other machines on your local lan, that is real though.

[Anonymous No.10664669]

>>10661963
>weebs still coping 20+ years later

[Anonymous No.10664694]

>>10664647
lol you’re so full of shit.
I had all three back in the good old days, I always got multiplats on Xbox because they were significantly better looking, with better frame rates. My best friend growing up had a PS2 so there were times I could play the same game on both machines to compare if we both had them.
One that comes to mind is Freedom Fighters. We both had it. That game looks and runs like shit on PS2 and is smooth as butter and crystal clear on Xbox.
IIRC SSX Tricky on PS2 doesn’t have normal maps/bump maps on the snow while the Xbox version did.
Open any gaming magazine from back then, they will all say the same thing, and it was noticeable, sometimes very noticeable, even on a bog standard CRT over composite (the only way I ever played vido).
The only two ports that come to mind besides the strange case of need for speed you mentioned are GTA and Silent Hill. In both these cases, there are improvements in textures, lighting and polygonal count on Xbox but missing “PS2 specced” features like the double blur and lighting on GTA. Those are the only two that come to mind that could be considered worse depending on your preference.
I don’t even know how they got the GameCube version looking that bad considering on paper it should definitely be second place, goes to show you they really saw GameCube ports as lowest priority back then.

[Anonymous No.10664825]

>>10664667
NTA, but your copepost is a shining example of why humans despise zoomans. No one who had the slightest clue would say shit like that, let alone cite it.
>Dreamcast’s copy protection was broken by Utopia’s Boot Disc on June 22nd of 2000.
What? Do you imagine the disc magically achieved self awareness and went back in time to create itself or something? Obviously the "copy protection was broken" earlier by the people who created the disc.
Anon probably didn't know people playing ripped games before they and the tools required were released to the general public. But the odds of that are better than those of you being old enough to be here.

[Anonymous No.10664843]

>>10659396
It would be really slow and ugly and the engine would have to be rewritten from the ground up just like the SNES "Doom".

[Anonymous No.10664859]

>>10664668
It's not a myth, but it happened in 2004 prior to XP SP2 and routers kind of sucked at the time so chances are they could let attacks through. Also XP was extremely bad security wise and just having your IP exposed on the internet was enough to get infected. People could remotely reboot your machine, it was insane, there was a major new virus every month. At one point I had to reinstall the OS every month. SP2 was a huge overhaul for XP and changed things around alot in response to those.

[Anonymous No.10664861]

>>10664694
>Composite cable - RF cable - Component cable

[Anonymous No.10664868]

>>10664825
the first DC pirate releases indeed started showing up in 2000 June:
https://www.nfohump.com/index.php?menu=sections&sectionid=7&offset=500

the other anon probably remembered the month wrong, consider it was over 23 years ago.

[Anonymous No.10665169]

>>10664168
Except the two Shenmue titles were first party Sega games developed to show off what the hardware was capable of and they couldn’t get them running smoothly. The cracks were already starting to show. The Dreamcast hardware was older and less powerful than the main three sixth gen consoles, plain and simple.

[Anonymous No.10665194]

>>10664620
False. Games on Xbox looked a lot better than they did on the PS2 versions. Splinter Cell being a prime example of this. The only console that rivals the Xbox in graphics is the Gamecube, but the Xbox version of almost every multiplat game had custom soundtracks. Both the PS2 and Gamecube did not feature custom soundtracks. Xbox had two versions of their controller. The Duke, which guys with small hands(you) complain about, but guys with big hands(me) absolutely loved it. Then there's the Controller S, which everyone praised and inspired the look & design of the Xbox 360 controller and beyond. As for the library, they had more than enough enjoyable games including exclusives that the PS2 didn't have. Xbox also had superior versions of multiplats thanks to better graphics/picture quality and custom soundtracks.

[Anonymous No.10665213]

>>10664667
You're the only one lying here. Your links aren't sources, just archives to older 4chan posts. You're seething because I spoke the truth from my own experience of how my friends managed to play ripped Dreamcast games very early on in the Drreamcast's life cycle. Once it became widespread, Sega's days in the console business was over and as a result third party developers dropped support of the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10665221]

Your anecdote is a big load of bullshit, that's what. You can't name the day and you won't name a single developer or publisher that dropped support because of piracy. Because they don't exist.

[Anonymous No.10665224]

>>10665194
>The only console that rivals the Xbox in graphics is the Gamecube
Wrong. GC games looked crisp but the lighting and shading effects were often nonexistent. The PS2 graphics looked blurry but the insane filrate and fully programmable co-processor let it render visual effects even the Xbox couldn't.

Xbox did have better graphics, but not in every way, and some PS2 games straight up couldn't be ported to the Xbox. Look up Demon Chaos.

[Anonymous No.10665225]

>>10665213
What country are you from?

[Anonymous No.10665239]

>>10665213
Your anecdote is a big load of bullshit, that's what. You can't name the day and you won't name a single developer or publisher that dropped support because of piracy. Because they don't exist.

[Anonymous No.10665241]

>>10659460
>i-it's not a turd if you do this n that n this n that a-and the joystick never gave ME any problems heh nevermind that the memory card was a needlessly costly gimmick that no one but autists like me used and it was a step back from Dualshock in every way and and
It had analog triggers. That's all I can give it.

[Anonymous No.10665250]

>>10665221
When it comes to console sales, you have Japan, North America and the wealthy parts of Europe and nothing else matters. I’m guessing that anon probably lives in a region where piracy is rampant for everything.

[Anonymous No.10665308]

>>10665213
god you're really committed to the bit. Look, maybe a few dorks in privileged areas w/ cutting edge setups to burn games efficiently did but:
>lingering bad will from customers, retailers, and 3rd parties after the addled conception and support of the 32x and Saturn especially in the west
>Sony being console Jesus to consumers and their followup with a DVD player as a bonus was just around the corner
>arcade/niche emphasis, many of the 3rd party games were just hardware accelerated ports of 5th gen games or bad ports from PCs
>bad controller and memcards, everything that I need to say about this has been said and you know it's true
I don't know why you refuse to to acknowledge these outside of the fact that you must be typing this in a Sonic fursuit and you're fucking deranged, or this is a long running (you)-bait gag which is equally sick.

[Anonymous No.10665331]

>>10662124
Bro you could flat out emulate GBC, GBA, and DS well within their active life cycles, along with flashcarts being around, and they didn't die from it.

[Anonymous No.10665340]

I don't see emulation/piracy killing Switch. I didn't see it killing the PS2.

[Anonymous No.10665351]

>>10665331
You clearly don't have a very clear memory of the period then because emulation for those systems were extremely wonky and poor and only really started to become stable near the end of their lifespans and often could not emulate with complete compatability. It took years and years into their existence to be relatively complete and stable. The Dreamcast was broken for perfect 1:1 accuracy and piracy almost immediately for its ENTIRE LIBRARY. Your examples are not comparable at all.

[Anonymous No.10665358]

>>10665340
PS2 piracy was less common until later in its life cycle and same with Switch piracy. You can keep making bad comparisons if you want, though.

[Anonymous No.10665360]

>>10665224
Eh, it goes both ways. All the archs were way different then. PS2 couldn't do the Geforce 3-ish/DX8ey stuff like normal./bump maps nearly as well either. You could likely approximate anything the PS2 did and vice versa, but flat out porting was a problem or you'd just have to simulate things via other means.

[Anonymous No.10665371]

>>10665351
Dude GBC and GBA were pretty much there within months. GBC was hardly any effort for devs at all, and I remember Fzero running (like shit, because I had 400mhz) first year on GBA emus but being fairly glitch free. DS took a bit but carts were around pretty early on. Most people in 99/2K did not have broadband and CDRW drives. They were around but not common. Maybe you had them as a college/city boy idk. Most people in high school where I was didn't have them til 2001/2

Are you gonna acknowledge the other reasons at all? Because at the very least GBC and GBA were basically freeware on mainstream computers from the first year. I'd say the other reasons are significant.

[Anonymous No.10665381]

>>10659396
The game was being worked for the dreamcast and it clearly shows, the character models literally look like they would fit right in any other dreamcast game, they are extremelly blocky and lack detail, GTA 3 could also perfectly fit in a single GD-ROM and the game still uses the shoulder buttons and not the second analog stick to control the camera.
Compare the GTA games to other open world games on the PS2 like true crime, scarface or bully and the difference is night and day, nothing about GTA 3 is particularly that impressive, a dreamcast version from these other games on the other hand would look like an entirelly different game.
GTA 3 on the dreamcast would probably look exactly the same but would have less NPCs cars, longer loading times and/or have more pop in.

[Anonymous No.10665393]

Dreamcast was literally dead on arrival. Their CEO had to pay out of pocket to get it out the door. Sega was dead after the NA failure of the Saturn and it's basically just the result of years of SoJ vs SoA shit flinging along with abortions like the 32x and CD. That's why they called it Dreamcast. It was a passion project sending out the last of Sega's life force.

[Anonymous No.10665407]

>>10665371
Even if you were correct about this, and I disagree about the level of functionality you claim they had, those are handhelds. They were quite literally sold on their portability. So having home emulators for it wouldn't have significantly impacted its market. It's also a difference to what portion of the community had access to this piracy. Don't even bother arguing the DS. No$Cash was shit, took forever to update, he started charging money for new builds on it blah blah blah. There wasn't a stable DS emulator for a long time that wasn't full of crackling audio or shitty framerates.

The Dreamcast was busted wide open immediately and even the most normie of normies had these magic discs to bypass and play anything. The situation was fucked like no other system has ever experienced.

[Anonymous No.10665409]

>>10662010
>ps2 sold 158.7M
I swear the PS2's sales numbers are always somehow increasing. Watch It one day reaching 200M units because sony forgot to count the PS2's sold in some shit latin american country.

[Anonymous No.10665410]

>dude piracy killed dreamcast
No it didn't you fucking retard. You still have to BUY a dreamcast to pirate its games and the problem is that Sega killed dreamcast production two years after it was released NA because the company was going under.

[Anonymous No.10665415]

>>10665407
>if you're correct
I am. I'm not one to be gaslit. I will find the GBC emu release from that year and play it in PCem on period hardware settings if that's what I need to do.

[Anonymous No.10665423]

>>10665407
Still had flashcarts though. Okay what about the other 4 issues I greentexted? Do you really not think they had an impact? Maybe piracy was the last straw, but the back was weak.

[Anonymous No.10665429]

>>10665381
>nothing about GTA 3 is particularly that impressive
The physics and amount of physics bound objects on screen were impressive. GTA games uses PS2's VPU0 to handle the physics while the main CPU is entirely dedicated to handling the game logics. Not to mention the CPU is clocked at 300MHz has 40KB of cache. The Dreamcast SH4 is only clocked at 200MHz with merely 24KB of cache, and it's got no powerful dedicated math co-processor handling the physics. The Dreamcast GPU could *probably* handle GTA 3, but the CPU most likely couldn't. This CPU has less cache than a first gen pentium . The port was canned for a good reason.

[Anonymous No.10665432]

>>10665415
>be wrong about everything but maybe one detail
>argument in tatters, comparisons proven to be complete shit
>well at least there was a good GBC emulator relatively early in its life cycle and I may have been right on one minor irrelevant detail
Good for you. Your core argument is still complete shit.

[Anonymous No.10665450]

>>10663497
>it has more total system Ram than the Gamecube
Gamecube had 43 and dreamcast had 26

[Anonymous No.10665454]

>>10665432
Whatever, psycho.

[Anonymous No.10665456]

>>10664868
>the first cope started showing up in this post
Yes, it was inevitable. A zoomie could never accept that a poorly worded statement, which it didn't even create, merely cited, is ridiculous and just leave it be. The power of autism compels it to cope.

Like 99.999% of /zr/ the other anon probably wasn't even born yet 23 years ago. All irrelevant to the fact that the boot disc isn't a terminator sent from the future to create itself. But highly relevant to the fact that the other other anon, who cited previous shitposts, is an underage faggot who's trying way too hard to fit in and completely embarrassed himself parroting parroted stupidity.

[Anonymous No.10665458]

>>10665423
>Still had flashcarts though.
You're just not thinking these situations through. How many people do you think owned flashcarts? How many people were willing to PAY for piracy rather than just wait for emulators to catch up? How many wanted to physically own these systems and risk bricking them or using alternative forms of piracy like this? I'll answer that for you: a tiny fraction. Like 2% or less of all consumers, and that's being generous.

>Okay what about the other 4 issues I greentexted?
Which post are you referring to? To be clear, I'm not the guy who argued that piracy killed the Dreamcast. I'm just arguing that piracy on that Dreamcast was a much bigger problem than any other console has ever faced due to how immediate it was, how easy it was, and how far it spread in such a short time.

[Anonymous No.10665469]

>>10665458
yeah and how many people had efficient burning capability, meaning broadband and the drive in 99/early 2K? What region were you in? Guess both our arguments are shit if we're arguing pirate demographics.
>>10665308
this you disingenuous faggot

[Anonymous No.10665492]

>>10665469
>yeah and how many people had efficient burning capability, meaning broadband and the drive in 99/early 2K?
Are you a zoomer? I'm genuinely curious if you just didn't live through the time period. I had 2 friends with Dreamcasts who were the most normie casuals on the planet and they both pirated every single game they had on it.

You didn't need broadband to pirate in 2000. Everyone was pirating on their shitty dialup. Napster and KaZaA were released around those times. Do you think everyone was pirating MP3's on their broadband connections? lol. They would just download shit overnight. Queue up hundreds of songs and just let it work.

It was a lot more widespread than you think.

[Anonymous No.10665496]

>>10665492
What country are you from?

[Anonymous No.10665498]

>>10665469
Also, the post you linked me to wasn't responding to me, it was responding to some other guy. How the fuck are you expecting me to know which post is yours? There's fucking 200 posts in this thread and I can't automatically know which one you're referring to you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.10665501]

>>10662965
>consoles just magically appear on the market one day out of the blue
>executives, R&D, marketing, and manufactures don't talk about future projects for years in advance
>sega and every other publisher/developer in the multi-billion electronics industry totally weren't expecting a 2nd playstation guys
>ps2 and dreamcast came out a whole year apart, so they weren't really competitors

If you actually unsarcastically believe this, I don't know what to tell you.

[Anonymous No.10665505]

>>10665496
East coast USA.

[Anonymous No.10665510]

>>10665501
This is going to shock you, but there is a difference in how consumers perceive things and how executives perceive things. I'm sure the Sega suits wanted the Dreamcast to be the next big thing and not a competitor with consoles that had been out for years, but to consumers, the Dreamcast just came off as a PS1 competitor that was trying to use slightly advanced hardware. This perception probably came from the fact that the Dreamcast wasn't releasing a new age of brand new next gen games, but was largely bulked up by a shitload of ports from 5th gen consoles. The PS2, by comparison, was launching mostly brand new titles with a different standard of technology and that's why gamers actually saw it as a new age.

[Anonymous No.10665514]

>>10665505
Pennsylvania here, born 1983. That’s pretty crazy to me because I didn’t start burning a bunch of Dreamcast games until around 2005. What ROM sites were you getting games from back in 2000?

[Anonymous No.10665520]

>>10665492
Unless they were fucking millionaires nobody was pirating on their dialup. Their parents would beat them ass when the phone bill came in.

[Anonymous No.10665541]

>>10665510
Dreamcast fags attempt to not self-own themselves challenge (impossible)

[Anonymous No.10665543]

>>10665510
Despite the advanced Dreamcast's CPU is only barely more powerful than N64's CPU. Sure it's 360 MIPS vs 125 MIPS but the cache size is the same. Meanwhile the PS2 has 2 programmable vector units and an insane filrate the Dreamcast couldn't compete against. There's no next gen game for the Dreamcast because Shenmue 2 and Crazy Taxi are the most advanced things the DC could run.

[Anonymous No.10665546]

>>10665514
>sites
P2P was the rage and where people were getting these things. I'm the same age as you and live one state over. EVERYONE in high school was doing this shit. Not necessarily games, but pirating. If they were gamers, they were also pirating games. This was just something that spread among normies of the time and became a hot thing in that period with teens. Because of course telling people how to get free shit was an easy way to befriend them.

Of course, my anecdotes are just my personal experience and it's not concrete evidence of anything, but I'm not the dude arguing piracy killed the Dreamcast. I don't think it did necessarily, but I do think it hurt it a fair bit with how much it scared developers that it was so easy and catching on. Most consoles get a much larger window of safety before something like that happens or it's a leak that can be fixed. The Dreamcast was just hosed.

[Anonymous No.10665549]

>>10665510
Pretty much, yeah. The Dreamcast’s graphics were amazing when it first launched, but it quickly fell behind once the other sixth gen consoles were out.

[Anonymous No.10665589]

Would you say that the difference in power between the dreamcast and the ps2 was higher than the one between the Pc engine and the Megadrive?

[Anonymous No.10665590]

>>10665546
DC++ leaving the computa ON for days trying to download a single ISO and hope the file extracts correctly and that DiscJuggler or Alcohol 120% recognizes the image. Those weren't the days.

Worse were those chinese IRC channels with the latest stuff but you had to wait in line and then download at 3-5Kb's.

[Anonymous No.10665598]

>>10665510
>largely bulked up by a shitload of ports from 5th gen consoles
>Soul Calibur
>Shenmue
>Resident Evil: Code Veronica
>Quake 3 Arena
>Sonic Adventure
>Phantasy Star Online

Look at all these 5th gen ports. DC wasn't next gen.

[Anonymous No.10665607]

>>10665598
He’s right that the Dreamcast had a lot of crossover with the PS1 and N64 third party libraries. Obviously the DC got the best versions of games like Ready 2 Rumble or THPS, but still.

[Anonymous No.10665609]

>>10665520
Literally millions upon millions of people pirated on dialup and left it on overnight or had some internet deal with up and coming ISPs that had dialup-like speeds. It was just a thing. People would leave Napster on overnight and have 100 songs queued up. Check it when they woke up, then go to school and still leave it on while nobody was home etc. Like everyone I knew did this between 1999-2002. I used to play Ultima Online and leave macros going all night to level up my skills and that was in 1998.

[Anonymous No.10665642]

>>10665598
No offense but that's not exactly some kind of blockbuster array of games that are going to get people to buy a Dreamcast or view it as next gen. Those are all solid games(for the most part), but it kinda proves the point even more. RE:CV was a sidestory game. It wasn't even a mainline RE. Quake 3 Arena is not some new series. Phantasy Star Online didn't come out in the US until 2001.

So out of all of those titles you just listed, 3 are truly original properties that were released relatively close to the console's beginning(within the first year). Out of about 450 releases in 1999-2000. That's not a good ratio for original, mainline games.

[Anonymous No.10665647]

>>10659370
It was a mistake to delay the Dreamcast until the end of 1999 outside of Japan.

[Anonymous No.10665658]

>>10665609
100% this. I used to leave my computer on overnight for audio Galaxy and kazaa. Napster was dead by the time I got to the party, but p2p file sharing was just getting huge. I remember when limewire took over after kazaa and then torrents after that. Pirate Bay was lit back then

[Anonymous No.10665674]

>>10665598
And Crazy Taxi. And Jet Set Radio. Those never got last gen ports.

[Anonymous No.10665893]

>>10665213
NTA, but agreed. Third party developers definitely dropped out once piracy became a problem. Sega understandably pulled the plug on the Dreamcast as early as January of 2001 because there was no way Sega was going to sell more consoles without third party support. And there was absolutely no way third party developers were going to make money off their games on Dreamcast when their games can easily be pirated. So Sega made the right call by discontinuing the Dreamcast. Giving the piracy fags the middle finger and going third party. They figured Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft can deal with fighting piracy instead, while Sega can just make money selling games on their consoles. Which worked out for the best.

[Anonymous No.10665901]

>>10665589
Absolutely.

[Anonymous No.10665906]

>>10665893
>NTA
Lmao

Sure.

Ok

We believe you

[Anonymous No.10665936]

>>10665893
You have a valid point. Piracy was a problem for music at the time as well. Broadband internet, CD burners, kazaa, DreamSNES... I remember it like it was yesterday. 2000/2001 was a magical time for people who bought computers & download stuff.

[Anonymous No.10666007]

>>10665893
Samefag and bullshit. Nobody regurgitating this eceleb position can name a single publisher or developer or person that stopped releasing on Dreamcast because of piracy.

[Anonymous No.10666030]

>>10666007
Yeah because developers always publicly state their business decisions about why they will no longer develop for a console. Not one developer has ever considered piracy as a potential concern for developing or releasing their games to PC on launch because they've never explicitly stated it in a public press release. Come the fuck on with this dumbass defense. That anon was samefagging but this is a totally retarded nonargument.

[Anonymous No.10666039]

>>10665358
PS2 piracy was almost immediate and publishers started forcing DVD releases early on even for very small games (some games used CD, some DVD), because DVDs were harder to copy.

>>10665469
>how many people had efficient burning capability, meaning broadband and the drive in 99/early 2K?

Anyone in college? And if just 1 guy figures it out, he can burn copies to his entire posse.
Back in 2001 we had people who could burn shit for 1/10th of the price of a retail game. In 1998, they could do it for the PS1 too. Hell they showed it on TV how you can modchip PS1s.

>>10665520
>Unless they were fucking millionaires nobody was pirating on their dialup.
By 2001 or so we had internet plans such as reduced minute prices for certain hours, so we had several hours a day to use the net for very cheap. I was pirating crap by then, even if it took nearly a week to get a CDs worth of stuff (factoring in that sometimes others also used the computer). We had a dual line so the internet worked independently from the phone.
It may have been an ISDN line, I'm not sure. I still have a lot of crap I downloaded from those times. Tons of old mp3s, video cd rips of Jackass, and so on.

[Anonymous No.10666063]

>>10665642
>No offense but that's not exactly some kind of blockbuster array of games that are going to get people to buy a Dreamcast or view it as next gen.

Soul Calibur alone sold a shitload of consoles when the system came out, there were people who bought the system for just that game and Crazy Taxi. Quake 3 Arena was mind blowing at the time because the PC version required an expensive setup. I don't know about the rest but Shenmue wowed a lot of people I know with how good it looked.

[Anonymous No.10666067]

>>10665469
>yeah and how many people had efficient burning capability
Please tell me it's just one dumb kid who keeps shitposting this stupidity in every DC thread. All zoomies can't possibly be this stupid, right?
But to answer the question, hundreds of millions. Probably more. Everyone I knew had access to that stuff. Many people had that shit at home.
But your question itself is inconceivably retarded. No one needs internet and a burner to play a pirated games. Back then you could just order them by mail, like anything else. Imagine being so fucking retarded that you think that even though you can still order pirated old games from China today you couldn't do it 25 years ago. Surely you're trolling, right? Only pretending to be retarded?

[Anonymous No.10666116]

>>10665456
maybe if your english didn't look like a 1998 altavista babelfish translation from Chinese, people wouldn't get hung up on your poorly worded statements

[Anonymous No.10666131]

>>10666007
Name one publisher from back then who were publically okay with piracy. Kek

[Anonymous No.10666137]

>>10666131
Valve Software.

[Anonymous No.10666158]

>>10666131
None. But these pirate fags like to pretend that publishers were okay with LOSING money.

[Anonymous No.10666261]

>>10666137
>Valve
Fat ugly virgincel runs that shitty company.

>>10666158
True, the majority are anti-piracy.

[Anonymous No.10666284]

>>10666063
>Soul Calibur alone sold a shitload of consoles when the system came out
It actually didn't move many Dreamcasts. It was definitely highly touted in gaming media magazines, but it sold pretty mediocre(which is to be expected since fighting games are kind of a B tier genre in regards to popularity/sales). It didn't make the top 10 best sellers in either Japan or the US in 98/99. In fact, no Dreamcast exclusive games ever made the top 10 in ANY country.

It sold 573K copies in its entire lifetime in the US between 1999-2001, which I would consider a success for the time period and genre, but not enough to label it a console mover. The Dreamcast sold about 5M consoles in the US. So ~10% of Dreamcast owners even owned Soul Calibur and most of those people probably bought more than just Soul Calibur. The Dreamcast overall just wasn't that popular after its initial Christmas of 1999 spike.

Even if we look strictly at Japan where fighting games were way more popular at the time, Sega admitted that it didn't sell out of Soul Calibur at its launch. They undersold consoles and the only game they sold out of was a port of Virtua Fighter 3, apparently.

[Anonymous No.10666296]

Should have released Half Life

[Anonymous No.10666305]

>>10666137
Gabe was never okay with piracy and the pirate idiots who always touted him as an ally are true morons. If Gabe didn't care about piracy, his platform wouldn't be a form of DRM meant to act as a piracy deterrent.

Gabe just didn't see the point in bitching about it and, at the time, thought it was better to focus on making a better product and service to convert one motivation for piracy(bad service/availability) into a sale. I feel like his stance has always been taken out of context for him to be "siding with pirates" when that was never his point. He was just smart enough to know that morally grandstanding against pirates was pointless since many gamers are both pirates and customers. All he can do is prioritize supplying the consumer with an easy, accessible product while protecting the product from piracy in the least intrusive ways he can.

[Anonymous No.10666369]

>>10666284
>It sold 573K copies in its entire lifetime in the US between 1999-2001, which I would consider a success for the time period and genre, but not enough to label it a console mover. The Dreamcast sold about 5M consoles in the US.

you can't be this fucking stupid can you?
nobody cares about the ratio of DC owners and SC owners in 2001, by that time the game was old news and everyone who wanted a copy already bought one.
look at the statistics of how many copies it sold at launch, if console sales in that period increased or not, and what was the rate of consoles sold vs games sold at that time.
you'll get a vastly different picture


but i don't have to check all that, because i know for a fact that Soul Calibur moved systems over here.
because 1. it was the only single game running demos nonstop on all kiosks, and 2. because I personally bought the system to play Soul Calibur (and Sonic Adventure, but quickly learned that that game sucked).

[Anonymous No.10666425]

>>10666369
>(and Sonic Adventure, but quickly learned that that game sucked).
Sonic Adventure doesn't suck. It is the best 3D Sonic game ever created. There's a reason why REAL Sonic fans want Sonic Adventure 3.

[Anonymous No.10666442]

>>10666425
That's Sonic R. And wildly bold of you to proclaim knowing who are the Real Sonic Fans.

[Anonymous No.10666462]

>>10666442
Real Sonic fans loved Sonic Adventure. Sonic haters hate Sonic Adventure.

[Anonymous No.10666509]

>>10666116
People didn't get hung up on any of my statements. One faggot is seething and coping because he got caught being retarded on the internet.

[Anonymous No.10666542]

>>10666425
>Sonic Adventure doesn't suck. It is the best 3D Sonic game ever created.

it's a mediocre 3d platformer at best and has plenty of immediately issues (camera, controls, collision detection, some parts of the game having long ass periods of "where the fuck do I go next", etc).

>There's a reason why REAL Sonic fans want Sonic Adventure 3.
yeah, they want more rogue the bat to jerk off to.
sonic adventure 3 already happened btw, it was released in 2006 as "sonic the hedgehog" and it sucked even more.

[Anonymous No.10666557]

>>10666369
>look at the statistics of how many copies it sold at launch, if console sales in that period increased or not, and what was the rate of consoles sold vs games sold at that time.
How the fuck can we determine whether Soul Calibur increased console sales when the game LAUNCHED with the fucking Dreamcast you peabrained fucking retard? There's no prior period of the Dreamcast existing in the US independently from it to compare it to. Complete idiot. There are no sales stats available for the things you're requesting here. I'm not the one lacking sales stats for my argument, you're the one who said it moved consoles and you having absolutely nothing to back that up.

Your argument is completely stupid to begin with even without those stats. If Soul Calibur was moving a "shitload of Dreamcasts", then either Soul Calibur or the Dreamcast would have sold out in the US and neither did. It didn't even came close, it was a complete disappointment. Soul Calibur didn't top ANY sales charts in any country. Nothing indicates it was some hot seller that was moving Dreamcasts other than your own headcanon

>nobody cares about the ratio of DC owners and SC owners in 2001, by that time the game was old news and everyone who wanted a copy already bought one.
The Dreamcast was only alive for 18 months. Usually "big" games in that era stayed relevant for at least a year, usually a little more. Hell, you arguing that I should only narrow down Soul Calibur to some tiny window at its release is itself an argument against the idea that it moved consoles. Actual console moving games stay at the top of the charts for weeks on end, like Pokemon games or games from the Final Fantasy series which single handedly sold consoles and stayed best sellers for months on end.

>but i don't have to check all that, because i know for a fact
"that all of my own personal motivations apply to everyone!" Braindead fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.10666595]

>>10666369
Actually, let's clarify and simplify this. According to you, what exactly is a "shitload of consoles"? How many of the 573K lifetime buyers of Soul Calibur are you actually approximating bought a Dreamcast JUST to play Soul Calibur? I want to gauge how deluded you are.

[Anonymous No.10666604]

Needed more lightgun games.

[Anonymous No.10666648]

>>10666542
>some parts of the game having long ass periods of "where the fuck do I go next"
Skill issue

[Anonymous No.10666653]

>>10666509
Like yourself who believes the piracy meme?
>>10665213
>Your links aren't sources
Read them.
>>10665893
>NTA, but agreed. Third party developers definitely dropped out once piracy became a problem.
No, they dropped out because they heard internally the system was already being discontinued, months prior to Jan 2001 when announced it. Read the archived shitposts. Valve themselves admit the cancelled the DC port of Half Life because they heard about Sega killing it.
>>10662124
No it fucking didn't, it's been debunked
>Sega already considering merging with Bandai in 1997
>lawsuit with 3DFX
>Dreamcast craps launch in Japan
>PS2 is announced, people decide to wait for it
>By 2000, Sega decides internally to kill system
>June 2000, piracy finally becomes feasible
>only a handful of games are pirated
>takes months for games to be pirated
>2001, Sega announces no more consoles
The piracy killed the system is horseshit parroted by retards who weren't there or bloviate about the amount of games they actually downloaded on dail-up.
>>10665609
>>10665658
And even then you weren't downloading shit to make a dent in revenue for officially sold copies.

Sega was simply circling the drain by 1999 and the Dreamcast was too late to do anything about it. Piracy had fuckall to do with it.

[Anonymous No.10666663]

>>10665458
>I'm just arguing that piracy on that Dreamcast was a much bigger problem than any other console has ever faced due to how immediate it was,
June 2000, when Sega was already losing money and had tons of unsold inventory in their warehouses. That was a bigger problem than a single bootdisc for like two games you could download.
>how easy it was, and
The process for burning games wasn't set it stone and you could fuck it up. It was not something a normie could do easily
>how far it spread in such a short time.
It didn't spread enough to impact sales
https://web.archive.org/web/20141016220612/https://medium.com/@michaelgapper/land-of-the-free-467f0eb2f395
>That June, Utopia dumped the first ripped Dreamcast games online – Dead or Alive 2 and Soul Calibur – opening the door for a flood of games from the Kalisto release group as they set about catching up on two years’ worth of Dreamcast releases.

>Just two months later on August 19th Kalisto released the first self-booting Dreamcast rips – Dynamite Cop and Virtua Fighter 3tb – creating multisession MIL-CDs which exploited the format to its ultimate piratical effect. Kalisto soon vanished, apparently changing their name to Echelon and continuing to dominate the Dreamcast scene under the new name. Echelon released a toolkit to transform rips released before the self-booting mini-revolution into self-booting ones and the entire Dreamcast scene set about learning the basics of downsampling to turn the content ripped from Sega’s dense GD-ROM discs into something which could be squeezed onto a conventional CD.
None of that shit above is some immediate hurricane of free software that will bring down profits from selling official releases.

It's obvious many retards who talk of "playing tons of pirated Dreamcast games" only did so after the system was killed.

[Anonymous No.10666682]

>>10664861
The guy who makes these doesn’t say what cables he’s using for each system, but I’m assuming he’s using component or an hdmi mod for each one.
Xbox Freedom Fighters ran in true 16:9 at 720p, quite the feat.
I think the GameCube version is just running at a lower internal resolution because it should be able to outperform PS2. They just didn’t prioritize its optimization such was the case with many ‘cube games.

[Anonymous No.10666717]

>>10666653
>Like yourself who believes the piracy meme?
Nope. Just the little faggot (You) who's crying so hard he can't even read what I posted. Let the butthurt flow through you.

[Anonymous No.10666747]

>>10661254
The Dreamcast also had Omikron: The Nomad Soul ported to it, which amazes me to this day. The draw distance and number of on-screen NPC's were somewhat reduced, but it was still a very impressive feat for the Dreamcast considering how massive the city areas are. They even retained the lack of loading screens when moving in and out of buildings. The only issue I remember is long load times when opening the items menu.

[Anonymous No.10666851]

>>10662001
I worked at a gaming store at that time
Whenever I mentioned that the PS2 can play DVD movies, 99% of customers responded, “I already have a DVD Player at home.”
In late 2002, a DVD player could be found for less than $100.
Also, pic related were rarely sold.

[Anonymous No.10666852]

>>10666851
>pic

[Anonymous No.10666978]

>>10666542
>Sonic 06 is direct sequel to Sonic Adventure 2.
That was a reboot, not a sequel. You're either a complete retard or you have Sonic Derangement Syndrome

[Anonymous No.10666987]

>>10666653
That's quite the wall of text you have there. Let me break it down to 4 simple words for you to understand how the Dreamcast died...

Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10666990]

>>10664861
This. Other dude is a retard, XBOX games didn't look shit for better once you were actually playing. I play my games, not spin around to see if the autistic shaders are showing 3 more pixels of dynamic light.

[Anonymous No.10666994]

>>10666987
Based!

[Anonymous No.10667000]

>>10666653
>The piracy killed the system is horseshit parroted by retards who weren't there or bloviate about the amount of games they actually downloaded on dail-up.

>And even then you weren't downloading shit to make a dent in revenue for officially sold copies.

>Sega was simply circling the drain by 1999 and the Dreamcast was too late to do anything about it. Piracy had fuckall to do with it.

You retard, the issue was not people downloading games over fucking dial-up and burning their own games, the problem was the one guy at a school, street corner, etc. that would either rip them himself or download it on his dad's office internet and then burn a zillion copies and sell them.

You're either young or retarded if you don't remember all the kids that had a "business" burning CDs for people back in the Napster days because not everyone had a burner or their internet was too slow and unreliable to download games. By 2002 several people I knew had fast enough internet to easily download games off of Limewire if they wanted to. Over time it was only going to get worse, they pulled the plug because game publishers saw the writing on the wall and knew what was coming.

The Dreamcast is probably still the easiest and safest system to pirate for, no modchip, no bricked firmware, just throw the bootleg game in and play.

[Anonymous No.10667001]

>>10667000
games=songs when talking about people burning CDs from Napster

[Anonymous No.10667119]

>>10667000
>The Dreamcast is probably still the easiest and safest system to pirate for, no modchip, no bricked firmware, just throw the bootleg game in and play.

That is insane, man.

[Anonymous No.10667290]

>>10666653
>Sega already considering merging with Bandai in 1997
>lawsuit with 3DFX
>Dreamcast craps launch in Japan
>PS2 is announced, people decide to wait for it
>By 2000, Sega decides internally to kill system
>June 2000, piracy finally becomes feasible
>only a handful of games are pirated
>takes months for games to be pirated
>2001, Sega announces no more consoles
Amen. The timeline just doesn't add for the "piracy killed dreamcast" argument. I guess the piracy argument makes sense if you're a retarded zoomer who doesn't know the background of the Dreamcast's development? I don't know. It's fucking stupid to think piracy killed Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10667312]

>>10667000
Exactly. I am one of the few piratefags to admit that piracy killed the Dreamcast. I take full responsibility for taking part in the Dreamcast's demise because I was burning games left and right, then selling it for $5 bucks each to any kid who owned a Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10667319]

>>10662903

[Anonymous No.10667329]

>>10667312
That was quite common back then. Music CD's, Dreamcast games...got a CD burner, you're making cash.

[Anonymous No.10667343]

itt larping zoomer

[Anonymous No.10667463]

The announcement of picrel is what killed any momentum or hype the Dreamcast had in the US.

[Anonymous No.10667465]

>>10659370
The problem lies in timing. Imagine you are on a project that takes 5 years to complete.

You have to release it some time. It just ran it’s course.

[Anonymous No.10667507]

>>10667463
I had no idea you could play a pirated PS2 game of Metal Gear Solid 2 on the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10667513]

>>10667507
Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10667518]

>>10667507
Nobody wanted a Dreamcast when that game was announced for PS2. And you’re a retard.

[Anonymous No.10667539]

>>10667518
Wishful thinking, but wrong. Piracy killed Dreamcast. Not the worst sequel to a great game.

[Anonymous No.10667562]

>>10667539
The hype for MGS2 was insane. Unlike anything else for that generation.
https://youtu.be/NSOi_5-EPPM?si=r7oxK_ox3KmKo9Rc

[Anonymous No.10667564]

>piracy killed a system that was already in the process of being discontinued
whoa

[Anonymous No.10667565]

Test

[Anonymous No.10667575]

>>10666717
>>10666987
>>10667000
Continue being retarded with terminal dunning kruger syndrome, considering you can't read actual sources and continue using your broken boomer memories and conjecture because you can't find a definitive source from Sega or any developer that points to muh piracy killed system.
>muh business of selling burned discs
>>10667312
>selling it for $5 bucks each to any kid who owned a Dreamcast
Your copies of DOA2 and VF3 released burned August 2000 weren't doing shit to software sales, continue to cope with increasing dementia. Conversely your pirated copies of Cannon Spike and MVC2 in the winter of 2001 didn't do shit, because Sega had already killed the console.
>>10667290
>It's fucking stupid to think piracy killed Dreamcast.
What's stupid is for these retards to read or a source that directly documents the history of piracy on the system or from Sega themselves.
>>10667564
Also this. Sega already knew they were in deep shit before piracy was feasible. And no, piracy not existing would've corrected course. When you do something drastic like leave an entire market, you can't magically walk it back.

[Anonymous No.10667689]

>>10667575
Whoa...another wall of text. Let me shortened it up for you, but without the lies and I'll package it in four little words...

Piracy killed the Dreamcast!

[Anonymous No.10667803]

>>10667575
>le definitive source from Sega

Nigger, there's no "source" for word-of-mouth conversations behind closed doors, do you know what the fuck an NDA is? Until bigwigs that worked at Sega at that time do a full expose we can only go off the logical information presented to us.

Bottom line, there is no good reason to kill a system that sold extremely well prior to the PS2 launch and could've and should've had similar success to the Gamecube *at worst*.

People don't wait for things to happen, businesses forecast 2, 5, even 10 years ahead. Who is going to start developing a multi-million dollar Dreamcast game when it's common industry knowledge some dipshit can copy it and sell it on the street corner no problem by the time it releases?

Why do always people think business people just sit and wait after an announcement like that and keep on making games and wait for the general public to stop buying their games to go "welp, maybe we should stop making these games now that we're bankrupt from putting millions into a game that sold 1,000 copies and had 5,000,000 bootlegs made".

So, no, actual realized piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast, the very obviously eminent threat of it did because, surprise surprise, businessmen are smarter than that and know when it's over.

[Anonymous No.10667813]

>>10667803
>there is no good reason to kill a system that sold extremely well prior to the PS2
There's a very good reason. A reason so good it's worth 1.8 Billion dollars.

[Anonymous No.10667815]

>>10667803
>there is no good reason to kill a system that sold extremely well prior to the PS2
There's a very good reason actually. A reason so good it's worth 1.8 Billion dollars.

[Anonymous No.10667824]

>>10667803
>So, no, actual realized piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast, the very obviously eminent threat of it did because, surprise surprise, businessmen are smarter than that and know when it's over.
Precisely. Piracy is always a threat to sales of physical copies. The music industry was suffering because of people pirating music. Dreamcast games were being pirated and that always leads to poor sales of games.

[Anonymous No.10667831]

I don't get why you guys are raging so hard and always try to make these extreme arguments. Every post is either piracy killed the Dreamcast entirely or it had no effect at all.

Piracy was definitely a concern moving forward with how easily the Dreamcast was broken. Sega already ran into so much trouble securing developers for the Dreamcast, its console sales were struggling and stagnating despite all of their price slashing, and then having a complete lack of security against piracy to entice the remaining developers to stay and try to right the ship with a robust library was essentially impossible and would have made an already grim situation dire.

Did piracy singlehandedly kill the Dreamcast? No. Was it the biggest reason the Dreamcast died? No, but it certainly was a compounding and damaging factor in Sega's future forecast that contributed in deciding to shut it down.

[Anonymous No.10667856]

>>10667803
>Nigger, there's no "source" for word-of-mouth conversations behind closed doors, do you know what the fuck an NDA is?
We've had 20 over years for them to confirm what killed the system you dumb fuck retard. Moreover, Sega has been more than willing to open up other problems they had that led to exiting consoles
>massive amounts of resold inventory in their warehouses
>cutting a third of their workforce by 1998
>the chip shortage that led to the disastrous 1998 launch of the dreamcast
>all their financial problems culminating in failed merger with Bandai in 1997
So explain how "piracy" is some super secret confidential thing they can't speculate on, and without throwing around terms like NDA that you're using to sound like have a MBA.
>Until bigwigs that worked at Sega at that time do a full expose
See the above greentext. We would've heard them invoke the piracy meme long ago.
>there is no good reason to kill a system that sold extremely well prior to the PS2 launch
The system was floundering in Japan and they also were running out of revenue dating back to the 32X. This is well documented.
>Who is going to start developing a multi-million dollar Dreamcast game when it's common industry knowledge some dipshit can copy it and sell it on the street corner no problem by the time it releases?
WHAT FUCKING PART OF "THERE WERE ONLY TWO GAMES CRACKED BY AUGUST OF 2000 WHICH BY THAT POINT SEGA WAS ALREADY PLANNING TO KILL THE SYSTEM" DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? READ THE FUCKING ARCHIVE LINK THAT EXPLICITLY DOCUMENTS THE PROGRESSION OF DREAMCAST PIRACY YOU ILLITERATE SHITHEAD. THEY WERE IN DEEP SHIT BEFORE PIRACY WAS FEASIBLE.

But you'll ignore that. Oh and late VA2 models already removed MIL CD compatability, showing Sega had already tried cracking down on it. But again, bullshit more.

[Anonymous No.10667865]

>>10667856
>So explain how "piracy" is some super secret confidential thing they can't speculate on
Not him, but most companies won't publicly talk about piracy because its poison. They know their customers are all pirates to varying extents, so blaming them for your console dying is bad PR no matter what. There's a reason companies won't talk about it but just quietly try to use DRM methods. There's nothing to be gained by discussing piracy publicly as a gaming company.

Before you have an autistic meltdown and screech at me, I just want to be clear that I'm not defending that other guy's core argument or saying that Sega specifically was having big board room meetings about how piracy was the reason they had to shut down. Just that it is an actual thing that companies don't like publicly discussing piracy.

[Anonymous No.10667873]

>>10667803
>>10667856
cont.
>Why do always people think business people just sit and wait after an announcement like that
Why do retards like you think Sega just up and announced they were leaving hardware manufacturing immediately because "piracy" when it's a process that takes months to do?
>So, no, actual realized piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast, the very obviously eminent threat of it did
Again, Sega as a parting gift manufactured later era systems that made playing burned games impossible. Moreover how the fuck is anyone supposed to know the long term damage from "possible piracy"? If that were the case the PSP would've been fucking dust after a year.
>>10667831
Every post is either piracy killed the Dreamcast entirely or it had no effect at all.
The latter, it's irre-fucking-futable if you do a single iota of research and actually match when shit happens.
>Did piracy singlehandedly kill the Dreamcast? No. Was it the biggest reason the Dreamcast died? No, but it certainly was a compounding and damaging factor in Sega's future forecast that contributed in deciding to shut it down.
They. Were. Already. Going. To. Kill. The System. Before. Piracy. Was. Feasible.

Holy mother of fuck HOW can so many of you be this dense.
>Sega already ran into so much trouble securing developers for the Dreamcast,
Remove EA and damn near every dev that didn't have an exclusive contract with Sony or Nintendo supported it. If they cut ties with Sega it's because they had inside info on it being killed.

[Anonymous No.10667882]

>>10667873
Imagine being this much of a mentally ill sperg.

[Anonymous No.10667885]

>>10667865
>Not him, but most companies won't publicly talk about piracy because its poison.
Twenty years after the system is discontinued and you're making literally zero money on it (because it's dead) is an excuse to expose what killed the system, piracy included. No one, from Stollar to Peter Moore to Hayao Nakayama to Hideki Sato (desiger/supervisor of all Sega home consoles) has confirmed some faggots in a college dorm playing a burned copy of Cannon Spike in the fall of 01 was the death knell or even the possibility of it. But they're morebthsn willing to admit financial problems with the Saturn and the botched Japanese launch and the hype from the PS2 was what killed it.
>They know their customers are all pirates to varying extents, so blaming them for your console dying is bad PR no matter what. There's a reason companies won't talk about it but just quietly try to use DRM methods.
Nigger them putting Denuvo in a new game on Steam has no bearing on what they did 20 years ago and everyone involved is either dead (Stollar, Isao Okawa) or retired (Sato, Nakayama)

[Anonymous No.10667891]

>>10667518
I love how the DC absolutely turn every Basednyboy into a blithering retard by merely existing. It died young and yet, it still lives in their head rent-free because they didn't get port-perfect NAOMI games. KWAB!

[Anonymous No.10667895]

>>10667891
This thread is mostly people chuckling about what a failure the Dreamcast was and one massive raging autismo Sega fan writing novels and trying to convince everyone piracy had no effect at all on the Dreamcast dying and that developers were all on board with the system until Sega tipped them off that they were going to kill it, apparently.

[Anonymous No.10667917]

>>10667575
>>10667856
>>10667873
>WARNING: This psychotic episode contains scenes of underage mental illness. If you or someone you know is suffering from stage 4 terminal butthurt please call the wambulance.
Jesus Christ, just stop all already. It's just pathetic. Have you no shame.

[Anonymous No.10668303]

>>10667000
>The Dreamcast is probably still the easiest and safest system to pirate for, no modchip, no bricked firmware, just throw the bootleg game in and play.
It's just as easy to pirate for PS2 nowadays. All Slims and some Fats share an exploit known as FreeDVDBoot that allows running unsigned code from a disc that introduces itself as DVD-Video to the console. There's a tool called ESR Patcher that you can use to create self-booting pirate copies that work on most unmodified consoles that way. The difference compared to Dreamcast is that it was only discovered 20 years after PS2 released and 8 years after it was discontinued. Even if you happen to have an early model Fat or you DVD drive is dead, there are other convenient ways to pirate PS2 games, you can stream game data from an SMB server over Ethernet or use an HDD adapter for a Fat console with just a softmod and no permanent changes to the console hardware or firmware.

[Anonymous No.10668391]

>>10667873
>They. Were. Already. Going. To. Kill. The System. Before. Piracy. Was. Feasible.

Piracy was feasible for an entire half year before they decided to kill the system.

[Anonymous No.10668398]

>>10667575
>Your copies of DOA2 and VF3 released burned August 2000 weren't doing shit to software sales,

Over here we had a guy running console stores who admitted that ever since the boot disc was out, their software sales completely plummeted. Hardware sales were not affected, but people stopped buying games.

[Anonymous No.10668402]

Piracy didn't hurt Dreamcast because in order to play pirated games you have BUY a Dreamcast (thus giving Sega money) to use it. And Pirated games have no resale value. As evidenced by decades of online sales, the majority of people want original official copies of games.

[Anonymous No.10668412]

>>10668303
Dreamcast pirating is step 1 download game, step 2 burn disc, step 3 play. Break PS2 piracy down into concrete steps like I just did, and let's compare/contrast then.

[Anonymous No.10668413]

>>10667290
>only a handful of games are pirated

nigger are you retarded
we have public records of exactly how many games were pirated, pic related.
from 2000 july to november, there were something like 250 game releases and it kept continuing, by the end of 2001 there were close to 500 game releases and selfbooting titles started becoming common.

it wasn't a handful of games, it was a flood of goddamn everything. the only things immune to it were titles with so much content and so much spaghetti code that hackers couldn't figure out how to get them working on just 700MB.

[Anonymous No.10668426]

Piracy didn't kill Dreamcast. The Dreamcast never stood a chance.

Sega was broke and literally couldn't even afford to pay their employees anymore. They were around $1 billion dollars in debt during Dreamcast's run. Most Sega leadership didn't want to make the Dreamcast and just give up on making consoles after the failure of Sega Saturn.

[Anonymous No.10668439]

>>10668412
step 0 install modchip
the rest of the steps is the same

only difference is that you need to buy a DVD burner, since games started coming out on DVDs early on to combat piracy. and DVD burners were pretty expensive at the time (between $400 to $800 in 2001, still as much as $250 in early 2002).

[Anonymous No.10668454]

>>10668402
Yet piracy led to Sega shutting down the Dreamcast because third party companies didn't want to lose money on a console where it was possible for their games to get pirated very easily.

[Anonymous No.10668459]

>>10668454
Sega shut down Dreamcast because the company was entering bankruptcy.

[Anonymous No.10668498]

>>10668412
step 1 download game. step 2 download ESRPatcher. step 3 run ESRPatcher. step 4 choose the game ISO in ESPPatcher. step 5 click "Patch". step 6 close ESRPatcher. step 7 burn the patched ISO. step 8 insert the disc into ps2 and play.

the advantage ps2 has over dreamcast is that nothing needs to be cut from games to make them fit on DVD-Rs and that you don't have to rely on other people making the .CDI for you like with Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10668528]

>>10668426
If Sega was an actual Japanese company they would have opted to go bankrupt instead of ceasing hardware production. They acted like a samurai who surrenders instead of fighting to the death, completely contrary to the idea of 大和魂.

[Anonymous No.10668535]

>>10659370
Only mistake was no 3rd party or CD support outside of licensing (3rd party that is.) PS2 killed the Dream.

[Anonymous No.10668567]

>>10668528
>If Sega was an actual Japanese company they would have opted to go bankrupt
They were going to. But the Sega CEO at the time used his entire family fortune to pay off Sega's debts. Then gave a final speech about Dreamcast is the best, and then died several months later (he was already old).

Sega built a statue in his honor that sits in their Japanese HQ to this day.

[Anonymous No.10668634]

>>10668402
>Piracy didn't hurt Dreamcast because in order to play pirated games you have BUY a Dreamcast (thus giving Sega money) to use it.
The problem with that line of logic is that Sega was selling the Dreamcast at a loss. They had dumped way too much money into its development. They launched it at $199.99 US in 1999. That was already at a loss from the get go. Then one year later in 2000, they had to slash its price even further to $149.99. 5 months later on February 4th, 2001, Sega officially announced it was waving the white flag and along with that announcement, that they were cutting the Dreamcast selling price to $99.99. One month later, they officially discontinued the Dreamcast. By the end of 2001, the Dreamcast was officially a 50 dollar console since Sega was just liquidating their failure at that point.

Sega's stated strategy was that they basically just wanted to survive and turn the corner. If they could hold out and capture and hold enough of the market and developer interest, they could correct course over time. But things just kept getting worse for them on all fronts and the piracy thing certainly didn't help.

>Pirated games have no resale value
Uh, yes, they do. It's called bootlegging and it's been a profession since the dawn of distributable media. They don't sell as much as original copies, but they do have worth. People generally paid people about 5-10 dollars to get bootleg Dreamcast games or they'd get them in bulk for a slightly lower price.

[Anonymous No.10668707]

I can't believe this thread poisoning dumbass is still going on about his $5 bootleg games. All it takes is one faggot to destroy discussion on a slow board like this.

[Anonymous No.10668709]

>>10668707
That was literally the first post in this entire thread that I made about bootlegs. You're also a retarded hypocrite because I am discussing the topic while you've made several shitposts in this thread just whining because you're too stupid to have a conversation. You even mixed me up with someone else.

[Anonymous No.10668738]

>>10668634
>Uh, yes, they do. It's called bootlegging and it's been a profession since the dawn of distributable media. They don't sell as much as original copies, but they do have worth. People generally paid people about 5-10 dollars to get bootleg Dreamcast games or they'd get them in bulk for a slightly lower price.

Read the rest of the post speedreader-kun

[Anonymous No.10668741]

>>10660882
>doubts
san andreas would absolutely not be able to run on the dreamcast. thats like saying if you could run sonic adventure 2 as it is on the 32x.

[Anonymous No.10668748]

>>10662182
ok sausagefingers

[Anonymous No.10668751]

>>10668741
Sure It could. They would just lower the draw distance.

Just like how Xbox games ran worse on PS2. The PS2 had muddy graphics and jagged aliasing while Xbox was superior.

[Anonymous No.10668753]

>>10668738
I didn't take issue with your claim that most people prefer official games when it comes to resale. I was only addressing your claim that pirated games have no resale value, which is false. A pirate can create a bootleg copy and sell it, and even the person that buys the bootleg can resell it. They aren't valueless, just low value. It depends on what is bootlegged and how hard to obtain it is.

[Anonymous No.10668764]

>>10668748
the guy who loved the dc controller was the one with sausagefingers lol>>10662137

[Anonymous No.10668767]

>>10668753
Were talking about burned Dreamcast games on CDs. Those have no resale value. It's not even worth the cost of shipping. You wouldn't even buy them yourself. No one buys them. That's why places like eBay focus mostly on actual official Dreamcast copies.

[Anonymous No.10668768]

>>10668459
*due to piracy

[Anonymous No.10668773]

>>10668535
>PS2 killed the dream
That's a weird way of spelling Piracy Killed The Dreamcast

[Anonymous No.10668779]

>>10668768
You think...piracy....put Sega almost 1 billion dollars in debt?

:/

Bad bait.

[Anonymous No.10668780]

The dreamcast controller is inarguably one of the most influential controllers of all time. It was great and still is. Fuck you and your $5 bootleg cds, retard.

[Anonymous No.10668797]

>>10668767
Yet places like Etsy sale reproduction copies of Dreamcast and Saturn games on CD-R.

[Anonymous No.10668803]

>>10668779
1 billion can easily be made back with first party titles, if people didn't pirate Dreamcast games.

[Anonymous No.10668806]

>>10668767
>Were talking about burned Dreamcast games on CDs. Those have no resale value.
Still incorrect. They just had very low resale value because nobody owned a Dreamcast and everyone and their brother was capable of pirating it and burning copies for themselves pretty easily. I'm sure some small amount of people still bought bootlegs second hand from people so they could play the games without paying full price.

>That's why places like eBay focus mostly on actual official Dreamcast copies.
They don't sell them on Ebay because it's illegal you weirdo. They can only sell official Dreamcast copies on there. People don't buy pirated copies of things on the internet mainly because it's illegal to even list them on any major commerce website and you're basically begging the cops to fuck your ass at that point if you're trying to sell copyrighted material.

[Anonymous No.10668824]

>>10668779
Piracy didn't put them into debt but it sure did erode developer trust in the platform completely and would likely have snuffed out any remaining hope they had that they could hold on and make the Dreamcast a success.

There was already no path forward. Sega was a bleeding, wheezing bloody body on the ground. Piracy was just the final fuck you bullet to the head rather than hoping the medic could show up and work a miracle recovery.

[Anonymous No.10668829]

>>10668780
>The dreamcast controller is inarguably one of the most influential controllers of all time.
Yeah, it showed all future developers exactly what they should avoid when designing a controller.

[Anonymous No.10668885]

>>10668824
>Piracy didn't put them into debt but it sure did erode developer trust

Developer trust was already shattered long before Dreamcast. Developers were annoyed with Sega releasing so many add-ons and electronics that were half baked. Sega CD, 32x, etc. Then Sega screwed over developers by launching Sega Saturn months earlier without telling them or giving them notice. That was the final straw for most devs.

The Dreamcast was basically like an ex-girlfriend trying to win back your love by changing, but you've already moved on to a hotter babe called Playstation. A babe who listens to your needs Day 1 and plays no games.

[Anonymous No.10668958]

>>10668885
Except...
1) Dreamcast had many third party developers including big names such as Capcom and Namco.
2) Once piracy became an issue, third party developers had no choice but to abandon the Dreamcast. Thus leading Sega to shut down the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10668983]

>>10668958
>1) Dreamcast had many third party developers including big names such as Capcom and Namco.
Not as much as previous generations. And significantly less exclusive developers.

Developers wanted Sega to prove they were a stable company that would stick with the hardware they release for a long time before moving on.

>Once piracy became an issue, third party developers had no choice but to abandon the Dreamcast.
I'm going to need to see receipts for this claim.

>Thus leading Sega to shut down the Dreamcast.
Like other anons said, Sega was a walking corpse on life support in 1999. And was in bankruptcy shortly after. That's the main reason DC shut down.

If Sega was healthy financially, they would have just released even more revised Dreamcast models that couldnt play pirated games. And also release more games. Just like how PS3 had early models that could play PS2 games but that feature was dropped later.

[Anonymous No.10669010]

>>10659370
The dumb thing about this whole piracy issue is that it would not have been difficult to code games to be piracy resistant. Just have the game code verify the file sizes, since pirated games had to be compressed onto cds.

[Anonymous No.10669026]

>>10668958
Agreed. I remember back in 2000, I was aware of the piracy problem and the domino effect it created. It was being discussed online and in gaming news sites. Sega wouldn't have been forced to create a newer model Dreamcast to combat the piracy, if these hackers would have waited at least until 2002 to pirate Dreamcast games. Maybe Sega would have lasted longer.

[Anonymous No.10669085]

>>10668958
And Namco also regretted signing an exclusivity deal with Sega over Soulcalibur. The planned PS1 version would have been a huge downgrade coming from arcades instead of the upgrade that was the Dreamcast version, but it would have sold much better just because of how many people already had a PS1 in 1999 and were familiar with the franchise through Soul Edge/Blade.

[Anonymous No.10669131]

>>10668958
Dreamcast specifically had a problem with third party support, some companies like Electronic Arts even tried to hold Peter Moore by the balls because of this. They asked for exclusivity for sports game on the platform, and they did not get it (Sega just bought a dev who was well known for sports titles), so they did not release anything on the console. Then the PS2 got advertised with the new Fifa at launch, which honestly looked more spectacular than any DC game.

>Namco
Namco only released Soul Calibur, Mr. Driller, Ms Pacman, and Namco Museum. Of those, Soul Calibur was a system seller, but the rest were a bunch of nothings (and the PS2 opened up with Ridge Racer and Tekken Tag which wiped the DC off all store kiosks).

[Anonymous No.10669136]

>>10659762
Sucks because the console has solid build quality, though the disc drive is the loudest thing in the world. Hate that controller like you wouldn't believe.

[Anonymous No.10669148]

>>10669136
I played almost all DC games with either Saturn pad/arcade stick or with a PSOne controller via an adapter.

[Anonymous No.10669149]

>By the late 1990s Sega were making heavy losses. Even as early as 1999, Okawa was claiming the Dreamcast would be Sega's last console[3]
>In the last few months of 2000 Sega began issuing statements about their desire to work on non-Sega platforms
>Despite initial reluctance, Sega of Japan finally pulled the plug on the Dreamcast project roughly three weeks after Christmas[9].

>It is widely considered that Sega were unable to compete with Sony's PlayStation 2 and Microsoft's new Xbox console when it came to marketing[9]
>financial pressures in the company, some of which stemmed from the Western Saturn's struggles, but also the declining arcade market, and multi-million dollar projects such as Shenmue.

>Decisions to drop the Dreamcast and leave the hardware market were the more likely the result of an internal arguement, where it was decided that building games for a range of systems would increase potential profits. David Rosen for example suggested Sega could become one of the largest video game publishers in as little as two years[4].

>Despite a long list of critically acclaimed software, the Dreamcast was unable to capture the hearts and minds of the general public. The consolation prize being that despite selling far fewer units in the short-term, the Dreamcast's launch was still more successful than the subsequent GameCube and Xbox launches in 2001.

>With the Sega Saturn, video game projects were being dropped as early as 1997 on the grounds that supporting the hardware was unprofitable. While the Dreamcast suffered from many drop-outs in late 2000, significant amounts of software were still in active development in 2001.

>One of the major factors for the Dreamcast production coming to an end was money (or indeed, the lack of it). The failure of the Sega Saturn in Western markets, combined with other loss-making ventures led to Sega reporting a ¥35.6 billion loss for the financial year ending on the 31st March, 1998[16]

Now fuck off $5 bootleg dumbass

[Anonymous No.10669151]

>>10659370
i know, they should've released it in 1989, they would've dominated the gaming market

[Anonymous No.10669182]

>>10661142
PowerVR GPUs were so cool. Free translucencies, lots of modern features. If they'd continued becoming more powerful it would've been very interesting.
>>10664280
The sound quality was terrible? That's very strange considering how nice the PS2's sound output is for games (as long as the games used high-quality samples; some titles did, some titles didn't). I used my PS2 as a DVD player and I didn't have any other DVD players to compare against so I wouldn't know, but now I'm interested in this.

[Anonymous No.10669189]

>>10669026
Pretty much. And with that, piracy ended the Dreamcast, Sega went third party and PS2 was without any competition until the launch of the Gamecube and Xbox.

[Anonymous No.10669195]

>>10669149
Not that anon but I agree with this post. However I dislike how it places the blame on Western markets and absolved Sega of Japan of all wrong doing. Or at the very least stays silent on it. The Western markets *carried* Sega's entire company. They bought almost 40 million Sega Genesis consoles, and an absolutely ridiculous amount of arcade cabinets. Whether Japan wants to admit it or not....Sega of Japan made some absolutely dumb decisions that ruined the company.


>where it was decided that building games for a range of systems would increase potential profits. David Rosen for example suggested Sega could become one of the largest video game publishers in as little as two years

Not many people know this, but Sega of Japan was doing very bad financially. In the very late 90s, they had to lay off 1/3rd of their entire Japanese staff, and merge a lot of divisions. So I don't think they had the same manpower as before to become a dominant force like David Rosen is suggesting.

[Anonymous No.10669208]

>>10669195
Huh? The Sega Saturn failed in the west and made Sega a zombie company. That's not blaming western markets, that's stating a fact.

[Anonymous No.10669217]

>>10661864 >>10661323
This is actually a good point to bring up, because the Dreamcast also had to do T&L on the CPU, and *also* had to convert animation formats on-the-fly which wasted memory and used the CPU a bit. The GPU's native animation format was not industry-standard and lacked explicit support for the more modern skeletal rigs that became increasingly popular in the mid-to-late life of the N64 and PS1. So you could still do all of it, but it came at a performance cost if you didn't spend time manually converting formats which was a non-trivial endeavor. It didn't have a huge impact on performance overall, granted, but this is one possible reason so many Dreamcast games stuck with segmented capsule bodies for their models and animations throughout its entire lifespan.

[Anonymous No.10669245]

>>10669208
The Sega Saturn failed in the East too. It had 2 good years in Japan, then Sega announced the Dreamcast, and Saturn game releases dried up in 1997.

[Anonymous No.10669253]

all sega had to do was kidnap more nintendo execs' sisters

[Anonymous No.10669254]

>>10669189
Lots of bad things happened in 2001. Piracy kills the Dreamcast, WWF bought WCW and ECW, and 9/11.

However the upside to 2001 was that I lost my virginity. Still that's another thing that ended coincidentally that same year.

[Anonymous No.10669256]

>>10669245
>The Sega Saturn failed in the East too.
Is this your new shitpost after the piracy crap?

[Anonymous No.10669263]

>>10661864 >>10661323 >>10669217
Oh, and as for the N64 it's not just the amount of memory that caused problems for the N64. It actually has double the memory of the PS1, buuut:

>CPU accessing RDP causes harsh degradation in RDP performance since it chokes the bus.
>Z-buffer HAMMERS the RDP. Overlapping even just a few models cause significant performance drop, while a singular extremely high-poly model will drop hardly any performance.
>N64's 4kb texture cache was larger than the PS1's 2kb texture cache, but the cache got locked down often by silly little things that made it stall. Might as well have had 1kb cache for all it was worth.
>Enabling certain RDP features would cut the available 4kb texture cache in half down to a measly 2kb texture cache. Allegedly the culprit is trilinear filtering; most N64 games make use of the weird three-point linear filter, but I'm not sure how many used trilinear for mipmapping.
>N64's default enabled graphical features - true 3D edge AA, de-dither blur, and horizontal screen blur (VI blur?) - aren't free. They don't hit performance too much but can become choking hazards that lead to other bottlenecks kicking in.

If Nintendo didn't fuck up by bottlenecking the N64's most powerful parts, we'd have seen it outdo the PS1 handily. It wouldn't quite fare against the Dreamcast but the unique graphical capabilities are cool in their own right.
Sega Saturn actually has very similar problems with regards to bottlenecking itself, and it had some cool graphical tech too, but I don't think skinned meshes would have ever come to it in its lifetime even if the console wasn't strangled. It wasn't until about 20-ish years later that Saturn fan programmers figured out a performance-intensive method of doing skinned meshes, but (iirc) it wasn't at all good for performance.

[Anonymous No.10669274]

Dreamcast actually sold as many units in 2 years as the Gamecube sold in 3.

[Anonymous No.10669286]

The Dreamcast failed because you could just burn a game and play it.

[Anonymous No.10669359]

>>10669286
They would sell even more consoles if it was that ez and great, truth is that the controller was so bad that even free games weren't that enticing when you would be hurting your thumbs every time you pressed a button.

[Anonymous No.10669406]

>>10669359
Piracy doesn't sell more consoles. It does however kill consoles by shortening it's lifespan, turning away would-be third party developers since they don't want to lose money.

[Anonymous No.10669407]

>>10669359
anon I own 8 dreamcast controllers their great

[Anonymous No.10669524]

>>10669256
>Is this your new shitpost after the piracy crap?

outselling the n64 for 1 month does not make the Saturn a success in japan.

[Anonymous No.10669534]

>>10669182
>If they'd continued becoming more powerful it would've been very interesting.
they did, it's the reason mobile phones can do 3d graphics today.

[Anonymous No.10669535]

>>10659370
You're not Japanese. It came out in 1999.

[Anonymous No.10669536]

>>10667891
Least pathetic Dreamcast fan

[Anonymous No.10669546]

>>10669195
>>10669208
This was already debunked. Sega didn't lose money on the Saturn, they lost money because Sega of America kept stockpiling millions of hardware units that would not sell. Japan wrote that all off, hence the billions lost in 1997. Tom Kalinske was responsible for this, and Japan repeatedly warned him to stop this stockpiling.

[Anonymous No.10669549]

>>10669546
I have no idea who Tom Kalinske is, lol.

[Anonymous No.10669561]

>>10659410
PS2 was a big step back in innovation. It's why a lot of DC games only got GC ports, since there was no Transfer Pak or VMU equivalent for PS2 like there was on Gamecube.

[Anonymous No.10669564]

>>10668780
>>10668829
>Yeah, it showed all future developers exactly what they should avoid when designing a controller.

Dreamcast's controller evolved to become the Xbox controller is standard

>Xbox controller is a dreamcast one with an extra stick and buttons
>Sega published niche titles on it like Shenmue 2, JSRF, Orta
>Both consoles tried sell online multiplayer
>Both consoles had an impasse with EA games; EA didn't make their titles Xbox Live compatible for two years, while they also completely ignored the Dreamcast
>microsoft even flirted with Dreamcast back compat before dropping it for cost reasons

- it entered the market just when Sega exited the market
- it had the most original Sega titles of the generation
- it had large focus on online gaming just like the DC, and was the only other console that came with online prebuilt in the console
- the architecture was a lot like a PC, so was the DC (games being easy to port from PC to DC was something very often mentioned at the time)
- DC had a Microsoft logo on it too.
- American. The only point Sega was ever significant in any market was in America with the Genesis
- controller was meant to have a VMU-like slot in the middle originally. it was covered up by the huge green gem when the idea was shelved.
- xbox was meant to have DC compatibility at some point. it was shelved because Microsoft didn't want to make the console even more expensive to produce.

xbox was literally the Dreamcast 2.

[Anonymous No.10669574]

>>10669561
this doesn't make any sense at all

[Anonymous No.10669579]

>>10669561
PlayStation 2 don't need sega/Dreamcast games, they are irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.10669608]

>>10669564
Dude, the XBOX was not the Dreamcast 2, the ethernet port was an advice from J Allard.

[Anonymous No.10669612]

>>10669406
Just see the famous uncrackable consoles the PS1 and PS2. Massive success. Or the far too easy to pirate Xbox One. Huge failure.

[Anonymous No.10669630]

>>10669561
There wuz gaem where I could use dc save on the cube which one and how?

[Anonymous No.10669789]

>>10669254
Speaking of WWF, WCW and ECW...only WWF and ECW has ever appeared on a Sega console. There has never been a single WCW game on Sega's entire run in the console business. I oftened wondered what a WCW game would be like on a Saturn and a Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10669813]

>>10669564
Sega tried to become a Microsoft studio during the Dreamcast era but the deal ultimately fell through.

[Anonymous No.10669930]

>>10669546
Please explain further. Genuinely interested.

[Anonymous No.10670056]

>>10659370
I think using their own proprietary format, the GD-ROM, didn't help things.

[Anonymous No.10670086]

>>10665901
Is it really?

[Anonymous No.10670114]

>>10666682
Assume all you want
they are shit comparisons that people like you use so he can get views
They should all be clear if you use a proper scaler and cables

[Anonymous No.10670137]

>>10670056
It could have worked, if the discs couldn't be recognized or read on the PC. Kinda like trying to put a 4K disc on a DVD drive, it doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.10670273]

>>10669564
>Dreamcast's controller evolved to become the Xbox controller is standard
They are literally nothing alike. The Dreamcast controller has the wire coming out of the bottom and a notch on the back to hold the wire as a retard frankenstein design. The Xbox doesn't. The Dreamcast controller has a giant useless VMU slot(a glorified memory card) in the center of it. The Xbox doesn't. The Dreamcast's thumbstick is a cheap, thin, plastic piece of shit. The Xbox uses a material similar to the dualshock. The placement of literally every single button other than XBYA buttons(and these buttons are in the same spot on pretty much every controller since the SNES) are in different locations on both controllers.

Nobody took any design decisions from the Dreamcast. The Playstation Dualshock controller was and is the standard for gaming.

[Anonymous No.10670304]

>>10669149
How does this disprove anything he said? We all know Sega was a dying company. Not one person in this thread claimed otherwise. Some people just claim piracy killed it since every major title for it was dumped and freely available for piracy by the 3rd quarter of 2000.

[Anonymous No.10670307]

>>10670273
>The Playstation Dualshock controller was and is the standard for gaming.
the dualshock itself is literally a SNES controller with analog sticks slapped onto it

now how the hell nintendo managed to not wind up with the same idea and made the monstrosity that they did is anyone's guess.

[Anonymous No.10670313]

>>10670304
>How does this disprove anything he said?
Because the Dreamcast was planned to be discontinued and Sega exiting the console business long before its games started to get pirated. You fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.10670339]

>>10669612
>PS1 and PS2 piracy were the same as the Dreamcast
What a disingenuous comparison. And I think you knew what that guy was saying. Your shit being uncrackable doesn't guarantee developer support, but your shit being cracked and vulnerable to a significant portion of owners of that console is definitely going to make companies think twice about developing for your platform.

[Anonymous No.10670358]

>>10670313
>Because the Dreamcast was planned to be discontinued...long before its games started to get pirated.
Objectively false. The information you quoted claimed that they officially decided to pull the plug 3 weeks after Christmas. Before that they were merely concerned and speculating about the doom coming ahead. Piracy for the Dreamcast was alive and rampant for literal months at that point. See: >>10668413

>Sega exiting the console business long before its games started to get pirated.
Yes, they had premonitions and inklings that that was their last rodeo unless the Dreamcast project succeeded. It didn't. Some argue due to piracy. I think in your peabrained retard mind, you somehow think the things you quoted were insinuating that Sega went into releasing the Dreamcast knowing it would be a failure and that they intended to pull the plug no matter what as soon as they released it. You misinterpreted the things you quoted. You even used this misinterpretation earlier in this thread to imply that Sega "notified its developers" in late 2000 that they intended to pull the plug even though you just contradicted yourself and it says they didn't decide to do that until late January and then made an official statement in February.

[Anonymous No.10670403]

>>10670313
Sega never planned to exit the console business, they were forced into it because of piracy.

[Anonymous No.10670610]

>>10669546
>>10669930
Ignore him. He doesn't know about how retail sales works in America.

Unlike Japan, if you sell something in North America then retail companies require you have a certain amount of stock held in reserve. In case there's a sudden huge spike in demand for your item, or if reserves suddenly run low. Retail companies require you to have extra.

Like if toilet paper or paper towels suddenly became in demand. You need to be able send extra on a moments notice. Every company that sells items at retail stores is required to do this including electronics companies.

Sega had a reserve of electronics in their North American storage warehouse in 1997. But what anon doesn't realize is so did every other console manufacturer. So did Nintendo and Sony. It's normal.

[Anonymous No.10670683]

>>10670610
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

[Anonymous No.10670713]

>>10670610
so basically some dumb anon wanted to blame a north american businessman for the saturn not selling when housing and stockpiling units is standard practice and the problem was the saturn wasnt selling
why are sega posters so eager to do damage control even 2 decades later i dont get it

[Anonymous No.10670773]

>>10670713
It's even more cringe. Sega of Japan gave some interview in the late 90s (when the company was doing terribly financially). This was right after CEO Tom Kalinske left the company due to disagreements with Sega of Japan. They said they were surprised that Sega of America was hiding so much unsold stock in warehouses, and that this unsold stock is the reason Sega wasn't able to turn a profit for that year. It's the very Typical Japanese attitude of refusing to accept responsibility for their bad decisions and looking for a scapegoat. It's quite the embarrassing interview because it was like Japanese Executives didn't know (or weren't told) how retail really works in America. It's very embarrassing in retrospect and I'm sure Sega is eager for that interview to buried and forgotten.

[Anonymous No.10670796]

>>10664280
PS2 sound quality was pretty good. It had the digital TOSLINK output. If you really cared about sound for DVDs, you were probably using that. I also just played Ace Combat Zero with the PS2 connected directly to my headphone amp. The noise floor was inaudible and I heard no distortion. Better than your average PC audio output for sure.

[Anonymous No.10670847]

>>10662931
>>CD
>>Good
Yes

[Anonymous No.10671121]

>>10664280
I used my PS2 as a DVD player all the time when I was a teenager. Worked great for me. Had my TV hooked up to a stereo with a loud-ass subwoofer too.

[Anonymous No.10671254]

>>10670610
>Sega had a reserve of electronics in their North American storage warehouse in 1997. But what anon doesn't realize is so did every other console manufacturer. So did Nintendo and Sony. It's normal.

Sega of America had millions of Genesis components like controllers and video cables in stock in late 1996. We have proof of this from the leaked financial report. The console was already dead and not selling at this point, so this was NOT normal.
The Japanese executives specifically warned Kalinske to cut down on that, and gave him a year to do so. He didn't. When Kalinske quit, he not only got a golden parachute, but the Japanese shareholders even complained how he could get away scots free with the huge financial damage he did to the company.
The 32x as a whole was also his idea.
Sega of Japan also told him to start focusing on 3d games as soon as possible. He focused on more Genesis games instead.

>>10670713
>>10670773
Sega of America did the same, they dropped multiple hints of Japan being jealous of their success and then intentionally sabotaging them. But now the financial reports leaked and it became clear that Kalineske's himself who buried Sega. He did the same at Mattel with Masters of the Universe, he over extended the line, ran it into the ground, and then quit the company as Mattel had to unload those toys at a huge deficit.

[Anonymous No.10671275]

>>10671121
>>10670796
>>10669182
With so many people attesting otherwise, I'm beginning to guess it was just my setup somehow. I'm not so stubborn or confident on that that I'll insist my experience was right, especially since I only used the thing as a DVD player maybe twice. But it's weird because my game sound worked perfectly but both my PS2 and PS3 had really muted, muffled, mouth full of cheerios style audio whenever I tried to play a DVD in them. To be clear, I had launch models of both of them. The original PS2 and the fat backwards compatible PS3, if that matters.

[Anonymous No.10671278]

>>10671254
I really want to believe this, but I keep reading so many conflicting stories over the years that I don't know what the truth is anymore on who is to blame for this.

[Anonymous No.10671282]

>>10671278
Probably both of them. If there's a meltdown situation like that and neither side is coming right out in the open presenting their case with clear evidence, but just making vague finger pointing statements, they usually both fucked up.

[Anonymous No.10671392]

>>10671278
There are no conflicting stories. We have official internal reports from 1996 and financial reports for later years which prove what happened.

USA side of the stories only ever say vague sensationalist things like Japan being envious at their success, and shooting down every time they sent them a plan to do games with Sony or to use the N64 chipset. Japan side tells about Sega of America mismanaging their stock, refusing to launch the Saturn in favor of the 32x, and having to send programmers over to America so they can start learning how to make 3D games. That's what ultimately killed Sega. Saturn was a huge success in Japan, if Sega of America focused on that properly instead of stockpiling a million 32x and Genesis hardware, the company would not have sank.

[Anonymous No.10671408]

>>10671392
You come off like a biased apologist. If Sega were a competent company, wouldn't they have corrected this before it became a 1 billion dollar problem? There's only so much you can blame your own branch company without people asking "So why didn't you manage your own branch better? Why did you take so long to do anything about it? Why did you have so little control of their operations?"

[Anonymous No.10671475]

>>10671392
Yeah, Japan was so good at pushing the Saturn's western launch that they forced the early release that destroyed all goodwill Sega had with several retailers while it had no games to buy.

>>10671254
>The 32x as a whole was also his idea.
That must be why the Japanese side was freaking out about the fucking Atari Jaguar of all things, you revisionist shithead. It's a miracle they were able to talk them down into it simply being an add-on. And why wouldn't they want to try to support hardware that was forced upon them specifically to help ease the gap between the Genesis and the Saturn? They were doing everything they could to not fuck over existing consumers any harder.

[Anonymous No.10671657]

>>10671254
>Sega of America had millions of Genesis components like controllers and video cables in stock in late 1996.
>The console was already dead and not selling at this point, so this was NOT normal.

It is normal. That's how retail works in North America. You are supposed to have a reserve stock if you sell an item retail.

For example, you order 30 million rolls of toilet paper from the factory. You send 20 million rolls to retail stores. The rest are held in reserve and fill in the gaps as needed.

That's how retail sales works in North America. This is not Japan where items are more limited.

[Anonymous No.10671682]

>>10671408
>There's only so much you can blame your own branch company without people asking "So why didn't you manage your own branch better? Why did you take so long to do anything about it? Why did you have so little control of their operations?"
Pretty much this. And every time this comes up these apologists always say something like, "Sega of America was its own company that couldn't be controlled! They betrayed Japan!". Then you point out that Sega of Europe also suffered the same issues, and these apologists struggle to come up with a good excuse. They don't realize that their answers just make Sega of Japan look more foolish. The reality is that Sega of Japan made some terrible decisions that put the company nearly $1 billion dollars in debt.

[Anonymous No.10671819]

>>10671408
They tried. Shoichiro Irimajiri flow to America and ordered Kalinske to change how the company operates. They gave him a year. Kalinske did not bother changing anything, got fired, and Irimajiri took over.

>>10671475
Stop hanging on to those 20 year old articles that paint SOA as being unable to do wrong. We had a lot more information come to light in the past few years, including interviews from important people from the Japanese side, which show that it was mismanagement from SOA that caused problems.

>>10671657
They didn't just stockpile hardware. They kept producing more, for a legacy system that is already getting phased out and dropped completely from retail. This was not normal.

>>10671682
SOAs decisions affected how things went in Europe as well. Do you think they could somehow keep things going when all developers and retailers stopped supporting Sega completely?

[Anonymous No.10671824]

The fact that there's contention to this day about who was in the right in the battle between SoJ and SoA shows that Sega management was an absolute disaster

[Anonymous No.10671851]

>>10659370
Sega should have released it then and nothing else between it and the Sega CD. Fucking Sega.

[Anonymous No.10671921]

>>10671819

How many times must you be told how North American retail business works? If you actively sell an item, then you must have reserve stock per agreements with retailers. Nintendo and Sony had to do the same thing with their systems. NES, SNES, PS1, etc. They didn't complain or whine. That's how commercial retail business works in North America.

[Anonymous No.10671927]

>>10671819
>SOAs decisions affected how things went in Europe as well.
Proof?

[Anonymous No.10671989]

>>10671819
You can't have it both ways. Either Sega was incompetent and clueless about what their American branch was doing or they knew what they were doing and allowed it to happen.

Either way, the fault lies squarely with SoJ. They are the parent company, it's not some equal partnership. Kalinske quite literally could not make independent financial decisions unless SoJ gave him the power to do that. If, as you said, they flew in and thought he was fucking the whole thing up and STILL left him with the power to make decisions completely independently, that is incompetence on Sega of Japan's part. If they somehow didn't know he was purchasing more manufacturing contracts, they're incompetent. If they left him the power to do that and let him operate for an entire extra year completely free of oversight when they already spotted trouble, they're incompetent. This narrative you're trying to sell of SoA being a rogue company that somehow stealthily made a billion dollar mistake without SoJ knowing it just makes no sense and reads like some infantile anime interpretation in some kind of attempt to paint Sega of Japan as blameless.

This whole thing just screams shifting of blame on both sides to me. The sense I'm getting out of this is that both SoJ and SoA broadly knew what was happening in North America. That both of them were overly optimistic about the Saturn before the NA launch since it had seemingly done well initially in Japan. They misread the situation, and after it blew up in their faces, they were both looking to point the finger at each other since they'd developed such an unhealthy relationship.

[Anonymous No.10672025]

>>10671657
Toilet paper costs nearly nothing to make, nearly nothing to buy, and people will buy them year round for centuries (until they discover the bidet). Game consoles cost a fair bit to make and buy, and their demand waxes and wanes over time. If they are supposed to be overstocked at all time, they shouldn't be.

[Anonymous No.10672065]

>>10671989
Different anon here. You make some fantastic points, and the other anon probably won't respond with a good answer.

I did want to point out something though. There's a reason a company opens a local branch in a different country and hires local people. It's because you expect the branch office to handle local sales, marketing, and you trust them to make good decisions based on the local culture. As the head office, you can give broad orders to your branch offices, but your supposed to trust each office on the best way to implement the orders for each country. Like when they asked them to sell the Sega Mega Drive in America. And CEO Tom Kalinske told Japan that he's getting rid of Altered Beast as the pack-in game and changing it to Sonic the Hedgehog, and then changing the name from Mega Drive to Sega Genesis for marketing purposes.

There's a big cultural divide between Japan and America. Most Japanese Executives don't understand American consumers. The rest of the world is not Japan. The fact I'm hearing Sega of Japan trying to micromanage the American and European branches just screams bad management to me. The large majority of Sega of Japan's funds came from overseas sales from arcade cabinets and consoles. So you would think Sega of Japan would TRUST the judgements of the Sega branch offices more.

But I guess Sega of Japan was a bit Insecure. It's an odd situation since Sega of Japan wasn't able to sell their consoles in Japan. The Sega SG-1000, Master System, and Sega Genesis all sold very poorly in Japan.

[Anonymous No.10672082]

I thought everyone knew about the SoJ vs SoA war? Both sides did lots of stupid shit. They really fought each other.

[Anonymous No.10672138]

>>10664545
*Walkman

[Anonymous No.10672218]

>>10671392
>Saturn was a huge success in Japan
>sold like two more units than the N64 which was a bomb there
>huge success
When FF7 came out, it was all over for the Saturn

[Anonymous No.10672232]

>>10672065
Of course. I didn't mean to imply SoJ should have known what the American market was doing; that's why SoA exists. Nor did I mean to imply SoA is totally blameless. I think they're both at fault here. I was moreso attacking the idea that SoJ was oblivious to what SoA itself was doing, which as a parent company is one of their major responsibilities. Even if Japan expected the American branch to handle things like American specific sales strategies and market decisions, it makes no sense that they would either allow or be unaware of new Saturn manufacturing contracts without being provided some kind of data to warrant signing off on them. I think they were aware of what SoA was doing even if they didn't fully grasp his decisions, and when it didn't work out, they distanced themselves from it and blamed Kalinske's decision making even though the Saturn was pretty much fucked regardless of what he chose to do.

But this just relates back to yet another SoJ mistake: they nakedly gambled their entire wallet behind a foreign market they didn't fully understand and were relying on a foreign branch to make their decisions for them and save their company. A branch company they were needlessly competitive and hostile towards.

[Anonymous No.10672294]

>>10672232
>and blamed Kalinske's decision making even though the Saturn was pretty much fucked regardless of what he chose to do.
Yep. Kalinske didn't even like the Saturn. He advised Sega of Japan to change its design. He said it was too complicated and Western developers wouldnt like creating games for its dual CPU design. Kalinske wanted a simplified streamlined design that was developer friendly. SoJ overruled/ignored Kalinske and just ordered him to make it work. Sega is such an oddly run company. They are hostile to their branch companies, but yet expect them to provide the bulk of sales. You never hear this nonsense from other companies like Nintendo, SNK, Namco, etc.

[Anonymous No.10672313]

Side A: Piracy killed the Dreamcast
Side B: Piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast

The debate between pro-piracy and anti-piracy seems to show me that one does not see the negative effects of piracy (third party developers not profiting because of piracy) and the other side does not see the positive effects of piracy (downloading games and playing them on CD-R or ODE's are beneficial because legit copies are overpriced now).

Yes piracy is bad, but only during a console's lifespan. Piracy is good because of the insane prices for legit copies of games on eBay. For example if I want to play Splatterhouse for the FM Towns Marty, I either pay hundreds of dollars to play it or I download the rom & emulator to play it.

I support piracy but not during a console's lifespan.

[Anonymous No.10672337]

Peter Moore clearly took his Sega of America and Dreamcast experience to lay the foundation for the Xbox.

https://news.microsoft.com/1998/05/21/microsoft-sega-collaborate-on-dreamcast-the-ultimate-home-video-game-system/

>Microsoft developed a custom Dreamcast version of Windows CE
>Was released right after the Dreamcast was discontinued
>Literally uses the Dreamcast controller layout minus the VMU
>Sega offered backwards compatibility for Dreamcast games
>The Dreamcast was a testbed of sorts for Microsoft, with some of the console's games running on a custom version of Windows CE
>Peter Moore who worked for Microsoft on the Xbo was the president and COO of Sega of America
>The ESPN games, Gunvalkyrie, Headhunter Redemption, The House of the Dead 3, Jet Set Radio Future, NBA games, NCAA games, NFL games, NHL games, Otogi, Outrun, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Phantom Crash, Puyo Pop: Fever, Rent-A-Hero No. 1, Sega GT, Sega Soccer, the Sonic games, Spartan: Total Warrior, Spikeout, Super Monkey Ball: Deluxe, and Toejam & Earl 3 were all released on the Xbox
>Hell, Jet Set Radio Future was even bundled with it
>It went for the same audience of cool, hip, eXtreme jock gamers that the Dreamcast did
>It fully realized the online gaming feature Sega ambitiously set out to popularize despite lacking the resources
>Right at the end of Microsoft's E3 2007 conference, exec Peter Moore revealed a special edition Xbox 360 to be branded with Halo 3.

Remind me again why Xbox consoles are still a thing? Xbox One, Series S and Series X are literally rebadged AMD PCs.

PS4 and Xbox One use a custom AMD Jaguar-based APU, which is x86, and PS5 and Xbox Series X use Zen 2-based CPUs.

They've been making PC games all along.

[Anonymous No.10672338]

>>10672294
And then they go ahead with the 32x which has the same CPU architecture, plus you have to go through stupid hoops to get it working next to the Genesis, and the video hardware is basically nonexistant? Yeah I don't think that's true, and also remember to take everything you read from him with a grain of salt. Last time they did an interview with him, he confused Michael Jacksons Moonwalker with Thriller.

[Anonymous No.10672346]

>>10661963
>Who cares about the 5th best selling game franchise of all time?

[Anonymous No.10672360]

>>10672338
You are forgetting that Tom Kalinske tried to recruit Silicon Graphics to work for Sega. But Sega of Japan overruled him and terminated the contract. This led to a lawsuit against Sega, and Silicon Graphics instead working with Nintendo to later make the Nintendo 64.

[Anonymous No.10672362]

>>10672313
Splatterhouse for the FM Towns Marty is definitely overpriced.

[Anonymous No.10672381]

>>10671921
>If you actively sell an item, then you must have reserve stock per agreements with retailers
So when all retailers are actively dropping them and returning their stock, which they have to buy back, then they continue manufacturing more stock? In what world is that normal? Genesis was dead by 1996 but they were still making more of the damn thing.

>>10671927
>Proof?
If third party developers stop making Sega games in favor of the Playstation, that means less Saturn games are created and released worldwide, and last time I checked "worldwide" affects Europe. But if you do not understand how lack of software kills a platform, then you'll probably say some dumb shit like this is only indirect proof.

>>10671989
>This narrative you're trying to sell of SoA being a rogue company that somehow stealthily made a billion dollar mistake without SoJ knowing

I already told you, they knew he was fucking up, ordered him to fix things, and when he didn't, he got fired.

What SOJ did fuck up was not grabbing him by the balls and forcing him to start building up for the Saturn because it will be their next console.

[Anonymous No.10672389]

>>10672337
>Remind me again why Xbox consoles are still a thing? Xbox One, Series S and Series X are literally rebadged AMD PCs.

So were the last three Playstations and the Wii U.

[Anonymous No.10672452]

>>10672381
>In what world is that normal? Genesis was dead by 1996 but they were still making more of the damn thing.

Again, It's normal. Electronics are long lead items that need to be ordered and manufactured in advance. Sometimes a year or more in advance. Why are you trying to make this an issue? Nintendo did the same thing. Nintendo manufactured the SNES units well into the release of the Nintendo 64. Sony did the same with the Playstation 1 and Playstation 2. Not to mention the cost of manufacturing a Sega Genesis in 1996 is very low compared to manufacturing them in 1989.

[Anonymous No.10672593]

>>10671275
Maybe there was something wrong with the dvd player software on ps2. on ps3, i watched a lot of dvds and it sounded normal. however on that setup i was using digital audio output.

[Anonymous No.10672616]

have sex you dipshit turbo virgins I'm gonna go play some contra and rub my face in some boobies

[Anonymous No.10672619]

>>10672616
I'm sensing some anger here.

[Anonymous No.10672675]

>>10659537
Sega fanboys are still seething so hard about getting buttfucked by everyone, sega included, that they have to resort to alternate dimension schizophrenic dreams to pretend they won

[Anonymous No.10673014]

>>10672232
Jesus Christ, the Dreamcast never had a chance, all those sega fans buying a dead console from the get go.

[Anonymous No.10673086]

>>10672313
I agree with you. Piracy isn't necessarily bad because you play games that are unattainable these days. And yes it is bad in a sense that companies are trying to make money and that can't happen when some faggot decides to download games they don't own on a console that is trying to survive in the console wars at that time.

But because the piratefags decided to pirate Dreamcast games early on, it led to the Dreamcast's quick demise and it led to the rise of the Xbox.

Thus causing that beta pedo faggot Bill Gates to penetrate the console wars with the Xbox brand, forever tainting the waters in the new console wars.

Sega and Nintendo should have been the only two brands duking it out. Not Sony and Microsoft.

[Anonymous No.10673246]

>>10672452
>Again, It's normal. Electronics are long lead items that need to be ordered and manufactured in advance.

They were creating orders to make new consoles *after* they started getting kicked out of retail.

>Why are you trying to make this an issue?
Because it is what lead them to lose billions.

[Anonymous No.10673258]

>>10672313
Bullshit strawman.

Correct Side: Sega was already going bust they knew they wouldn't be able to sustain the Dreamcast and it was in the process of halting production before piracy hit

Your Bullshit: Hurr durr it was da piracy that took off after the Dreamcast was halting production that killed it!!11

Fuck off retard.

[Anonymous No.10673337]

>>10673258
>it was in the process of halting production before piracy hit

False. Piracy hit during it's lifespan back in June of 2000, then Sega added an anti-piracy patch on their newer model Dreamcasts before halting production in January of 2001. Nice try on your revisionist history, but it is incorrect piratefag.

[Anonymous No.10673343]

>>10659370
Dreamcast is a suped up ps1 with a bad controller

[Anonymous No.10673371]

>>10659537
>they never had the cash the big companies did

Factually and mathematically wrong. They just squandered their wealth nonsense. Sega is studied at business school to this very day, of how NOT to run a multinational organisation

[Anonymous No.10673405]

>piracy killed dreamcast
You have to be a moron to believe that. Every Dreamcast made after October 2000 had their CD-R compatability removed and couldn't play pirated games. Games were being developed by publishers for the Dreamcast up until the console's production was halted so there wasn't suddenly some big publisher exodus. The piracy argument makes zero sense. Just stop.

[Anonymous No.10673451]

>>10659370
9-9-99

[Anonymous No.10673557]

>>10673405
Lack of game sales due to piracy = publisher exodus = Piracy killed the Dreamcast

[Anonymous No.10673680]

>>10673258
>it was in the process of halting production before piracy hit
You've tried to sell this timeline so many times in this thread and people have proven you wrong repeatedly with evidence.

[Anonymous No.10673723]

>>10673405
>Every Dreamcast made after October 2000 had their CD-R compatability removed and couldn't play pirated games.
Oh so it was just 80%+ of the Dreamcast owners who could pirate its entire library. We know this because Sega announced a price cut to the Dreamcast on August 31st, 2000. And with that production run, they announced that they targeted and shipped 4 million total Dreamcasts in that run. That was before their token anti-piracy measure and liquidation phase, and they sold about 1M Dreamcasts of the anti-piracy variety between October and March. So the very vast majority of Dreamcast owners could pirate the whole thing.

Of course, after the liquidation phase where they dropped it to 100/50 bucks, it boomed in sales since the price of Dreamcast games would have dropped to bargain bin prices in conjunction with its discontinuation. It briefly became a very cheap Playstation alternative with better graphics, which was worth it to many consumers. Not ALL consumers were pirates.

>Games were being developed by publishers for the Dreamcast up until the console's production was halted so there wasn't suddenly some big publisher exodus.
Games take years to develop. Of course there would be projects in development for it at the time of its discontinuation. I'm sure there were plenty of projects that continued well after it was discontinued. Dreamcast games were probably made up until 2005 or so. Mostly ports, but still.

When you know you have an exodus is when the number of exclusive projects disappear, slow to a trickle, new development projects aren't being started, etc. Sega's Dreamcast died so rapidly that it's hard to get a clear picture of it, and it never had good developer support to begin with. We'd have to look at the number of development projects that began between Oct2000 and Feb2001 compared to normal to determine whether people were already jumping ship or not.

[Anonymous No.10673812]

>>10659483
It's more like gen 5.5 desu. It's obviously better than PS1 and N64, but it's also obviously worse than PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube.

[Anonymous No.10673851]

>>10665407
Holy zoomer. I was alive then and actually owned a dreamcast. No one knew about pirating because you couldnt copy gigabyte discs and only hyper autists were into the conversion scene that early

[Anonymous No.10673867]

>>10673723
>token
There's nothing token about it. It's still uncracked in 2024.

[Anonymous No.10673906]

>>10673851
I had a few friends who bought special disc drives specifically to burn games for the dreamcast. Same as how I knew a lot of people with modded PS1s.

I think you were just in the special needs class, thats why you didnt know anyone capable of doing it. Piracy was a major problem for the Dreamcast, because unlike the PS1, you didn't need to know someone who could mod a PS1, you could just buy a special disc drive and a bunch of discs and you were ready to go.

You're either a larping zoomer, or you were surrounded by retards.

[Anonymous No.10673953]

>>10659382
I guess I'm the only one who loves the controller

[Anonymous No.10673957]

>>10673723
Games didn't take years to develop back then. It took a year at most, and that was for huge games.

[Anonymous No.10673963]

>>10673867
About as useful as having an indestructible lock on a wide open door. I would definitely call that token.

[Anonymous No.10673971]

>>10673957
You are a complete retard and know nothing about video game development. Average development cycles for new video games took about 2 to 2 and a half years, unless it was some really basic cheap game or a strict port project. Nowadays, that has increased to 4 years.

[Anonymous No.10673974]

>>10673963
Almost all Switches in its first 2 years have the paperclip exploit. PS4 had up-to-date firmware exploits multiple times throughout its life.

[Anonymous No.10673981]

>>10673974
Did you have a point with this flailing attempt at damage control or are you just throwing out desperation factoids hoping something sticks as suitable damage control?

[Anonymous No.10674012]

>>10673971
No it really didn't lol. 6 months to a year was common at that time. Anything over that was a rare exception, usually indicative of a rough development cycle.

Do you really think that average game development time has only increased by 2 years over the past 20 years? It went from a month to 6 months in the 80s to make a game, to 2 years minimum in the late 90s. That's actually what you think?

[Anonymous No.10674015]

>>10673981
By that exact logic new Switch revisions and PS4 firmware are all token and Nintendo and Sony would be bankrupt by now.

[Anonymous No.10674023]

>>10674012
>No it really didn't lol. 6 months to a year was common at that time. Anything over that was a rare exception, usually indicative of a rough development cycle.
You are incorrect and spouting easily disproven nonsense. Look up the development cycle for any notable original game you know in the 90's and early 2000's and it will have a development cycle of 18-36 months. Unless it is something extremely basic like a shmup or a port.

>Do you really think that average game development time has only increased by 2 years over the past 20 years?
Yes. It has gone from an average of 2 to 2.5 years in the 1995-2005 area to now being about 4 to 4.5 years in modern day on average.

>It went from a month to 6 months in the 80s to make a game, to 2 years minimum in the late 90s. That's actually what you think?
2 years on average, yes. Not minimum. That is what I know for a fact because these companies all release their development cycle start and end dates and all of them say I am correct and you are wrong.

[Anonymous No.10674031]

>>10674015
The Switch piracy you referred to is significantly more complicated than the Dreamcast piracy method, involves a lot more research, personal risk to damaging the system, and was a physical jailbreak of the system rather than a simple disc exploit that carried no risk whatsoever. It also affected a significantly smaller portion of systems relative to Nintendo's trajectory, and Nintendo more successfully corrected course and dealt with the problem.

Neither of the examples you brought up are even remotely comparable to what happened with the Dreamcast. Nowhere near as significant a portion of its userbase had either access to, knew about, or utilized those exploits. There is a significant difference in "dude, just jam a metal pin into your Switch at this very specific angle and follow all of these complicated steps" and "here bro, put in this magic disc first and then play any game you want"

[Anonymous No.10674038]

>>10673851
>My ignorance is proof of how brilliant my argument is
>I am totally not a larping zoomer. Real grownups are actually this retarded
lol

[Anonymous No.10674086]

>>10673723
>and they sold about 1M Dreamcasts of the anti-piracy variety between October and March

That 1M sold could have old stock they had lying around, so in reality the the fixed Dreamcasts were sold in even lower numbers. Last time I checked on ebay I could barely find any with the (2) on the bottom, like one in a hundred or so.

[Anonymous No.10674103]

>>10674023
>That is what I know for a fact because these companies all release their development cycle start and end dates and all of them say I am correct and you are wrong.

No they don't. But since you're so adamant, post some examples to prove it.

[Anonymous No.10674146]

>>10674103
Legend of Zelda NES - 3 years
Super Mario Bros NES - 3 years
Final Fantasy 4 SNES - 1 year
Final Fantasy 5 SNES - 1 year
Final Fantasy 6 SNES - 1 year
Final Fantasy 7 - 14 months(although they had 5 times the staff of a regular development team at the time)
Final Fantasy 8 - 2 years
Final Fantasy 9 - 2 years
Final Fantasy X - 2 years
Final Fantasy Tactics - 4 years
Street Fighter 2 - 2 years
Street Fighter 3: New Generation - 2.5 years
Soul Calibur - 2 years
Devil May Cry - 3 years
Metal Gear Solid - 3 years
Metal Gear Solid 2 - 4 years
Resident Evil 1 - 2 years
Resident Evil 2 - 21 months
Resident Evil 3 - 15 months
Resident Evil: Code Veronica - 2 years
Grand Theft Auto 3 - 4 years
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - 1 Year
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - 2 years

etc etc.

[Anonymous No.10674175]

>>10671278
Might be a fault with the launch models then. None of the PS2s I've watched DVDs on have been launch models afaik.

[Anonymous No.10674236]

>>10673557
That never happened. Publishers were still developing for the system. That's a fact.

>>10673723
You're retarded. The number of units that would have been capable of playing CD-R would have been less and less the longer the Dreamcast would have been in production.

So let's look at the facts (again)
>publishers were still making games for the system up until Sega pulled the plug
Conclusion: there was no publisher exodus. Therefore piracy could not have killed the Dreamcast. It's that simple.

[Anonymous No.10674298]

>>10674236
>The number of units that would have been capable of playing CD-R would have been less and less the longer the Dreamcast would have been in production.
The problem for you is that about 50% of all lifetime sold Dreamcasts were capable of pirating all current and future titles. At the time that Sega pulled the plug, about 90% of sold Dreamcasts were piracy friendly. It wasn't until the year the company was literally liquidating their inventory that they began selling consoles that prevented piracy, and by then it didn't matter since games would have been dirt cheap. It doesn't help your argument in any way.

>publishers were still making games for the system up until Sega pulled the plug
I literally JUST refuted this argument in the very post you just responded to. The entire second half of the post you responded to was directly refuting this point. You seem to have this idiotic habit of just ignoring arguments you don't like and restating your already debunked bullshit.

[Anonymous No.10674426]

>>10674236
>That never happened. Publishers were still developing for the system. That's a fact.
There was a publisher exodus. 90% of Dreamcast owners were able to play pirated games. The (2) model is very rare and hard to find, that's the model doesn't play CD-R's. So with 90% of Dreamcast owners able to play pirated games spelled trouble for Dreamcast. I remember reading magazine articles predicting the Dreamcast demise since piracy is a problem for the system and many developers would exit simply because they can't profit if people are pirating their games. Developers/publishers couldn't wait to start publishing games on PS2, Gamecube and Xbox. So by the time the PS2 came out, Sega's days as a console maker was numbered, even with their newer model Dreamcasts disabling CD-R's from being played on their consoles, it was too late since 90% of Dreamcast owners can play pirated games. Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10675690]

>>10674426
>There was a publisher exodus.
For the Saturn, yes. But for the Dreamcast once piracy hit? No, not at all. That's a fact.

[Anonymous No.10675892]

>>10675690
Prove it. And no, developers not canceling all of their projects months ahead of time of the Dreamcast's discontinuation is not proof.

[Anonymous No.10675896]

>>10675892
>Prove it. But the proof doesn't count.
kek @ you

[Anonymous No.10676028]

>>10674236
>>10675690
Yet games like Castlevania Ressurection got cancelled for the Dreamcast and I was really looking forward to playing that game. Even Max Payne got cancelled, just shows how negative an impact piracy makes on consoles.

[Anonymous No.10676034]

>>10676028
>Problems at Konami or a lack of faith in the game's quality are attributed to Castlevania: Resurrection's cancellation, but the truth is that it was the industry's prioritization of Sony's PlayStation 2. Castlevania: Resurrection was cancelled the same day that the PS2 was announced in March 2000.

>There were plans for a Dreamcast version of Max Payne, but they were cancelled because of the console had stopped being made.

You dishonest slime

[Anonymous No.10676058]

>>10675896
>the proof doesn't count
Your idea of proof is that developers finished their already in progress development cycles to try and recoup their investment as evidence that there was no exodus. You might actually be mentally retarded or have an IQ below 100. Not even kidding. I already spoonfed you why that doesn't make sense and you still don't get it.

[Anonymous No.10676071]

>>10676034
>Konami jumped ship to the PS2 the second it knew it didn't have to release its game on the Piratecast
Sounds like exodus to me. Sounds like they were waiting for any reason at all to leave. Here, I'll even use your stupid form of arguing.

>Dude, Konami planned to leave MONTHS in advance and were already going to dump the Dreamcast. They had already internally decided to do so. They were just waiting for the official PS2 announcement.

[Anonymous No.10676075]

>yeah why would they prioritize the company of the last gen's overwhelmingly winning console. piracy!!!!!

[Anonymous No.10676094]

>>10676075
So what you're saying is that not only is Sony an obviously superior company to Sega, but that they also had ample reason to definitely avoid releasing their new property to a compromised console rife with piracy. Weird of you to just concede the entire argument like that, but I'll accept it.

[Anonymous No.10676097]

>>10676094
Sega was dead ever since the Saturn failed in the west. Piracy had nothing to do with the Dreamcast's demise and you're a fucking retard for continuing to push something that has been debunked in several ways.

[Anonymous No.10676125]

>>10676097
>Sega was dead ever since the Saturn failed in the west.
Weird, they continued to operate as a console company after that. You have a strange definition of "dead".

>Piracy had nothing to do with the Dreamcast's demise
You haven't made any compelling arguments that this isn't the case. In fact, you've been objectively wrong all throughout this thread. People have provided proof of where you've been wrong and you just ignore it and keep trying to repeat yourself. You were wrong about the availability of piracy. You were wrong in claiming people needed broadband connections to pirate. You were wrong about specialized burner software/hardware. You were wrong about the amount of compromised systems. You're wrong about developers not losing interest in the system(not that they were ever very interested anyways). You lied about dates of piracy releases. You lied about Sega's internal decisions.

The funny thing is you've mistaken me for someone else in this thread. I'm not even the guy who has said piracy killed the Dreamcast. I'm someone else that read this thread and realized you were exaggerating and lying about a bunch of stuff to try to paint the picture that piracy had NO effect on the Dreamcast, when it very clearly did have some effect.

[Anonymous No.10676146]

>>10659370
NOTHING COULD HAVE SAVED THE DREAMCAST
DVD Player, better controller, better game library, better hardware or released 2 or 3 years later... all futile.
Nothing could have prevented the PS2 from becoming a major sucess and dragging all the attention and money since how mind blowing the PSX was in the late 90s.
Dreamcast can't prevail in a world where the Playstation 2 exist. It is like trying to convince a heroin addict (PSX then a PS2 owner) to switch to crack (the Dreamcast) . It will never happen.

[Anonymous No.10676324]

>>10676146
Of course nothing could have saved the Dreamcast. Piracy straight up murdered the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10676331]

>>10676125
>Weird, they continued to operate as a console company after that. You have a strange definition of "dead".
Their company president had to sell his assets to even get the console completed and launched. It was obvious that Sega was financially on borrowed time. You're certifiably cluess on this subject so refrain from weighing in. Lurk more.

[Anonymous No.10676339]

>>10676331
>It was obvious that Sega was financially on borrowed time.
Being in a desperate situation is not dead. It was possible for Sega to recover at that point if they had made better decisions and certain things went more in their favor. Learn to use your words better.

[Anonymous No.10676381]

>>10668764
Based blind bro.

[Anonymous No.10676886]

THE CORD COMES OUT THE WRONG SIDE OF THE CONTROLLER

[Anonymous No.10677319]

>>10676886
What the hell were they thinking?

[Anonymous No.10677412]

>>10673906
>>10674038
holy samefag zoomer seethe. No one pirated dreamcast games because they were all dirt cheap after the console died in seconds. But everyone I knew did pirate ps1 games

[Anonymous No.10677481]

>>10677412
>No one pirated dreamcast games
>But everyone I knew did pirate ps1 games
False. Everyone who owned a Dreamcast had pirated copies during the Dreamcast's lifespan. No one I knew who owned a Playstation had pirated copies. Back then you'd have to have a mod chip to pirate games for the PS1 and no one at the time knew anything about doing that, outside of a few fat ugly nerdy virgincels who doesn't have any friends who probably did that.

[Anonymous No.10677497]

>>10677481
Zoomer headcanon revisionism. If you were alive you would know it's not true. Burning ps1 shit was easy and you could get a mod chip at most local game stores. Dreamcast was not easy to pirate for until after the console already died because self-booting discs weren't finished for major games yet. You watched a youtuber that said DC had no piracy protection and have no idea what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.10677518]

>>10677412
What is this revisionist retardation? Tons of Dreamcast owners pirated. Stop making shit up you coping faggot. The dirt cheap games didn't stop all the people that knew about the CD-R magic disc boot exploit from just pirating everything with 1 disc you idiot. Why spend 5-10 dollars when they can spend 0?

Sure, down the line in like 2003-2005 after a significant amount of Dreamcasts had shipped that stopped the exploit, then people bought the 5 dollar discontinued games. But people didn't magically forget how to pirate games just because Sega discontinued the Dreamcast you absolute dipshit retard.

[Anonymous No.10677523]

>>10677518
Pirating most games for the dreamcast wasn't possible until after the console already died. The games didn't fit on CD-Rs and it tooks years for some games to get properly working releases. You don't know what you're talking about. ps1 games were as simply as burning the ISO after paying $20 to some dude at your local game store

[Anonymous No.10677536]

>>10677497
False. The only zoomer with a revisionist headcanon is you. And no, mod chips weren't available at any local game shop you lying sack of shit. Dreamcast was very easy to pirate for in June of 2000. Months before it died in January of 2001. It's obvious that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.10677541]

>>10677497
>Burning ps1 shit was easy and you could get a mod chip at most local game stores.
Not him but you're the one that doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. What the fuck is this nonsense? You think local game stores were just out there offering to install mod chips in the open? lol?? Are you a fucking idiot?

Dreamcast piracy was way, WAY easier than PS1 piracy. This isn't even up for debate. You are coping so fucking hard it's embarrassing.

>because self-booting discs weren't finished for major games yet
Like what? Name them. Name games you couldn't pirate and play on the Dreamcast at the time it got discontinued.

[Anonymous No.10677548]

The PlayStation 2 and it's ability to watch DVD movies killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10677556]

>>10677523
>Pirating most games for the dreamcast wasn't possible until after the console already died.
Yes, it was. This myth was already debunked in this very thread. Multiple times.

>The games didn't fit on CD-Rs and it tooks years for some games to get properly working releases.
SOME games, not "THE" games. As in a handful of games were too big to fit due to bad bloated coding and it took a little longer for a handful of releases. Not the entire library you idiot. Probably 90% of releases were playable by the time it was discontinued.

>ps1 games were as simply as burning the ISO after paying $20 to some dude at your local game store
Ah yes, the ol' "Hey dude, will you install an illegal modchip on my PS1 for 20 dollars?" routine that all the kids did back then. Definitely did this completely safe to do thing all the time over just downloading software in the privacy that they did in their own home with the Dreamcast.

You are a certified Grade A fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.10677573]

>>10677556
You weren't alive back then. Your posts make it completely obvious. Every local game store did things like mod chips and imports. How exactly do you think people were downloading 1 GB rips of dreamcast games at home in 1999?

[Anonymous No.10677574]

>>10677523
Why would a local gaming shop help you pirate games and kill their own business?

[Anonymous No.10677580]

>>10677574
>he never experienced actual local game stores
sorry kid

[Anonymous No.10677584]

>>10677573
>You weren't alive back then.
Yes, I was. I was literally the prime demographic to know exactly what was going on with piracy. Clearly, you weren't since you're making up obvious bullshit.

>Every local game store did things like mod chips
Yeah, totally. They'd totally install that shit on your system for you for 20 dollars and put themselves at legal risk and completely nullify their own business by destroying any incentive for you to buy their PS1 games on the shelves. This is a completely real thing that happened.

>How exactly do you think people were downloading 1 GB rips of dreamcast games at home in 1999?
We already covered this in the thread. Do a ctrl+F and read through it. It also wasn't in 1999, it was in 2000.

[Anonymous No.10677585]

the mil-cd crack didn't even happen until it was already over. You zoomers are so full of shit.

[Anonymous No.10677591]

>>10677584
>2000
Ok so then you admit that piracy wasn't a thing for dreamcast until it was already dead. It had nothing to do with it's failure. Look at 1998-2000

[Anonymous No.10677597]

>>10677580
Show proof of even one store advertising, in English, that they're installing Playstation 1 modchips in their store. If they're going to do it for any random kid who asks, then clearly they'd be comfortable advertising this service too.

[Anonymous No.10677604]

>>10677597
Just be alive back then

[Anonymous No.10677606]

>>10677591
>Ok so then you admit that piracy wasn't a thing for dreamcast until it was already dead
It was released in 1999 in the US and discontinued in 2001 you complete fucking retard. You can also stop spamming this thread with your samefags. This board is slow and we know it's you. This is just getting embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.10677613]

>>10677604
I was, and I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.10677617]

>>10677606
>zoomer read wikipedia
It was released in 1998 and if you actually followed gaming news back then you would have known it was dead by 2000.

[Anonymous No.10677626]

>>10677617
>It was released in 1998
In Japan you fucking moron. Not in the US. This is a US website and we're talking about the Dreamcast's lifespan and trajectory in the US. Doubly so since Sega was hinging their entire plan for it and future on the US market.

>It was dead in 2000 in my own head
Your trolling is weak and I know you just want to have this shitty thread hit the post limit so you can bury your shame at this point.

[Anonymous No.10677652]

>>10677617
>died in 2000
>piracy happened in 2000
that confirms it, piracy killed the dreamcast

[Anonymous No.10677656]

>>10677548
*Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

Fixed it for ya.

[Anonymous No.10677749]

>>10659382
This

[Anonymous No.10677758]

>>10659409
The one good post in this whole thread

[Anonymous No.10677801]

>>10673086
Pretty much this. Piracy has been useful in preservation and it's not immoral in that regard at all.

[Anonymous No.10677812]

>>10667000
Okay retard. too bad the playstation was having the same problem. I don't know why you are a neurotic little nerd spamming this shit but piracy didn't kill the Dreamcast. It is also a Gen 6 console by all measures.

[Anonymous No.10677857]

>>10677812
You didn't debunk any of his valid arguments. Piracy killed the Dreamcast, deal with it.

[Anonymous No.10677994]

>>10677812
The PSX didn't have the same piracy issue as the Dreamcast. They're not even remotely comparable.

[Anonymous No.10678020]

>>10677801
>muh preservation
>miuh morals
Why don't you just be honest and say you want to play children's games for your own enjoyment without paying? Entertainment has nothing to do with morals or ethics, retard.
I bet you also parrot the meme about how you'd totally pay for games if companies still sold them and then cry when it costs more than 2 dollars because you're too broke to afford anything more.

[Anonymous No.10678286]

>>10677412
ok zoomer

[Anonymous No.10678420]

>>10677497
>you could get a mod chip at most local game stores.
That sounds made up. No game store owner in the right mind would do something that insane unless he wants to lose money with unsold games.

[Anonymous No.10678459]

>>10677597
>Show proof of even one store advertising, in English, that they're installing Playstation 1 modchips in their store. If they're going to do it for any random kid who asks, then clearly they'd be comfortable advertising this service too.
Dudelet, when your argument requires that number of cope qualifications it's time to stop posting.

[Anonymous No.10678512]

>>10678459
The only qualification in that post was that it was in English, what the fuck are you even talking about?

[Anonymous No.10679110]

>>10678459
So you got nothing? No proof to back up your obvious lie? Kek

[Anonymous No.10680018]

Piracy killed the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.10680021]

>>10680018
The piracy fags already waved the white flag, anon.