/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10595964]

Shame this series is ded. They invented RPGs and its DNA is in every video game.

[Anonymous No.10595972]

what's the best one for gameboy and the best one for pc? I'm thinking about trying Underworld because it looks dope

[Anonymous No.10595982]

>>10595972
idk about Gameboy, I would think they're all bad. on PC it has to be 7 and the expansion. It's practically an immersive sim before Thief and Deus Ex got accredited for it.

[Anonymous No.10596002]

Did Squaresoft steal the name Ultima for both the Weapon and the weapon?

[Anonymous No.10596008]

>>10595982
>It's practically an immersive sim
Eeeeehhh... that's actually Ultima Underworld. Which came out before 7. I know they're both called Ultima but there is a huge difference between the two (and I fucking love Ultima 7 btw)

>>10595964
On PC Ultima 4, 5, 6 and 7 are all classics for a reason. However they get more and more clunky the farther back you go (4 and 5 are so old they use nearly every key on the keyboard for different functions) so starting with 7 (which is really streamlined control wise) and working your way back from there is a good bet. Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 are also classics but very different from the rest of the series (also I'd argue Underworld 1 at least might be the best game of all time depending on my mood)

[Anonymous No.10596013]

>>10596008
Oops I meant this for you: >>10595972
Use Exult for Ultima 7 and Ultima Underworld Portable for Ultima Underworld (duh.)

[Batowl No.10596031]

>>10595964
Didnt know there are gamesn9n nes, gb, snes.

[Anonymous No.10596051]

>>10595964
Ultima 1 is more interesting for what people didn't steal from it than what it actually inspired. The world would be a better place if every RPG had mandatory Newtonian space travel

[Anonymous No.10596053]

>>10595964
>They invented RPGs
"Am I a fucking joke to you?"

[Anonymous No.10596065]

>>10595964
Ultima games didn't invent rpgs, but they did prove that rpg videogames can be great.
Also anyone else find it funny how the definitive version of ultima iv is the fucking master system port?

[Anonymous No.10596091]

>>10596053
Gygax didn't fancy using computers much. I know RPGs can be pen and paper-type experiences, sure. However, Mr. Gygax never played any computer games

[Anonymous No.10596092]

>>10596091
I think you're talking about CRPGs not RPGs mate

[Anonymous No.10596093]

>>10596092
CRPGs are a form of RPG,

[Anonymous No.10596096]

>>10596002
It's not "stealing" to name a magic spell after another game. That is called homage or referencing usually.

[Anonymous No.10596109]

>>10596093
>a form of RPG
You're supporting his post.

[Anonymous No.10596110]

>>10596109
>>10596053
obviously mean video games, Ultima was the inception

[Anonymous No.10596120]

>>10595972
Underworld is dope. It's also a fucking technical marvel. It had

> Textured floors and ceilings
> Dynamic lighting
> Sloped surfaces
> Dynamic music
> Polygonal objects as terrain (like boulders)
> Animated water/lava surface textures (with surface swimming in water)
> RPG mechanics
> A fatigue system with sleeping
> Multiple NPC factions
> A conversation system
> A bartering system
> A magic system
> A crafting system
> An inventory system (complete with container-in-container)

and all of this was in a game that was on store shelves almost two months before Wolfenstein 3D. Mindblowing.

[Anonymous No.10596137]

>>10596051
The first time I played Ultima I was intensely sick with the flu and could barely function, and some time afterward I was thinking about how the classical medieval RPG/adventure game I played had required me to collect parts to build a rocket so that I could fly into space and dogfight with TIE Fighters, and honest to god I wasn't sure if that part of the game was actually real or if the whole thing had been a fever dream.

[Anonymous No.10596185]

>>10596120
The most amazing thing is that as an actual game IT STILL HOLDS UP as a piece of game design (mostly, the jumping physics and controls can fuck right off.)

[Anonymous No.10596207]

>>10596137
Just imagine how much of a mind-fuck is was for the first people playing it without a guide.
>I wonder what I'm collecting all this stuff for
>what the fuck, I just made a space ship
>what the fuck, I'm in space
>wasn't I playing a fantasy RPG?

[Anonymous No.10596757]

>>10596110
>Ultima was the inception
There were some CRPGs before Ultima though, like dnd and other games for the PLATO, the Dunjonquest games, the Campaign games, Rogue, Odyssey and then Garriot's own Akalabeth. But Ultima and Wizardry were watershed events and were more succesful than anything before.

[Anonymous No.10596807]

>>10596120
Too bad the gameplay and interface is a fumbling mess.

[Dave No.10596960]

>>10595982
>It's practically an immersive sim

immersive SIM a stupid fucking term

change your diaper, zoomer

[Anonymous No.10597023]

>>10596185
I played through UU1 & 2 like a couple months ago with some mouselook shit for the dosbox version, it was far more playable than any of my previous attempts.

[Anonymous No.10597040]

>>10596960
whats your malfunction

[Anonymous No.10597043]

>>10596120
I have a hard time playing it in 2024 and the lack of subtitles in the intro turned my deaf ass off

[Anonymous No.10597195]

People who get mad at the term immersive sim can't explain why survival horror, rogue like, rogue lite or metroidvanias are more valid genre titles, they're just getting butthurt for the sake of it to be contrarian. Immersive sim = shit that plays like most of Looking Glass's library, it's really not that complicated. Just like how a Metroidvania is shit that plays like Metroid or Igavania. LookingGlassLikes is even more of a mouthful than imsims.

[Anonymous No.10597229]

>>10597195
Immersive sim was coined by the pretentious hack that directed SystemShock, who wanted his games to be taken seriously and seen as adult and mature entertainment. It's the western equivalent of Kojima's "I invented the camera". The term never caught up until zoomers saw it on a youtube video.
>Igavania
Now that term is shit and is a poor attempt at taking all the credit for a team work.

[Anonymous No.10597262]

>>10597229
that's absolutely mind numbingly retarded, you should feel bad

[Anonymous No.10597269]

>>10596120
They did it twice too. System Shock is just as amazing. Looking Glass was the GOAT developer

[Anonymous No.10597276]

>>10597229
Who cares who coined it if it's accurate?

[Anonymous No.10597280]

>>10597195
I'll say what I say every time this topic comes up until some youtuber finds it and everyone pretends like it was always common knowledge: Wittgenstein already solved this shit 90 years ago. For every set of rules you can come up with to describe a broad category, you're going to find exceptions that still fit that category. It doesn't mean the category is meaningless, only that it's impossible to strictly define what should belong to it. For things to be grouped together, they just have to have a family resemblance. We all know what an RPG is, and some turbo nerd saying "well ACTUALLY call of duty has xp and Final Fantasy doesn't let you create your character, so what is an RPG??" doesn't change that. They're just nitpicking because they can find exceptions to some arbitrary set of rules that aren't particularly useful to begin with.

[Anonymous No.10597283]

>>10595964
>its DNA is in every video game
How many extinct common ancestors do species on Earth share? Just because something was influential doesn't mean it was the most viable. I dont believe Ultima would be able to compete in today's fantasy RPG market, even if today's market owes much of its existence to Ultima. Now having said that, a remake or remaster of Ultima Underworld could be potentially successful if they keep the fun imsim elements in it and add some QOL stuff here and there.

[Anonymous No.10597294]

The Ultima conversation always goes back to Underworld. Because few people really still enjoy the mainline Ultima series. It's a slow-paced series of games with tons and tons of generic medieval fantasy storytelling

inb4 the one guy who actually has played gives me an angry response

[Anonymous No.10597302]

Whats an "Immersive Simulation"?
Simulation Essentials:
>game world has multiple objects and systems with interlocking properties - evident and latent - that both "Act" upon and "React" to other objects and systems, aka an "Act/React" system or similar system that exists in the game code
>a systemic "Act" can be applied to a corresponding systemic "React" for emergence not always foreseen by the developer.
>level design with multiple routes & multiple ways to complete objectives
>obstacles to objectives can be deliberately bypassed with creative system interactions without breaking the game script
Immersion Nonessentials:
>set in a first-person perspective
>no gameplay-interrupting cutscenes
>no character stats or numbers in menu screens for the player to make gameplay judgements and decisions. Instead, all relevant data are cues and feedback from inside the game world itself for the player to make gameplay judgements and decisions.
These points are based around the SS1/Thief era of LGS which was the culmination of the design philosophy. While Ion Storm and Arkane branched off of LGS to make immersive sims, they both reverted to numeric RPG mechanics which detracted from the overall immersion. Thief is the only imsim (I know of) that possesses all points listed above, which makes Thief:TDP and Thief:TMA the absolute platonic form of the immersive sim.

[Anonymous No.10597337]

>>10597195
I think for me it's because the term "immersive sim" sounds very generic and nondescript. Having immersive in the title implies other simulators aren't immersive.

[Anonymous No.10597341]

>>10597337
"Immersive Sim" is an apt description once you understand the tenets of the design philosophy

[Anonymous No.10597345]

>>10597341
Yeah then I really don't get it.

[Anonymous No.10597350]

>>10597345
See>>10597302

[Anonymous No.10597357]

>>10597350
Yeah maybe it's simulation I'm against then. I'd call a flight simulator a simulator but it doesn't necessarily fit your description. And flight sims can be very immersive, even fulfilling your definition of immersion.

[Anonymous No.10597429]

>>10596008
>clunky
Keyboard commands aren't clunky. Take five minutes to get used to them and it feels better than a mouse. The later games would have benefited from more keyboard interface.

[Anonymous No.10597432]

>>10597283
well I think it would stand way out, like a Baldur's Gate 3 situation.(runaway success) I think gamers are ready.

[Anonymous No.10597440]

>>10596185
After spending maybe 15 minutes playing Underworld, the controls felt very good. Jumping always felt terrible though. Thank God for levitation.

[Anonymous No.10597457]

>>10596807
It's actually pretty good. Many different ways of just using the mouse to interact with things. Protip: you never have to pan the camera up or down. You can hit enemies at your feet that you can't even see, just keep the cursor low. If you aren't hitting, your skill is too low.

[Anonymous No.10597462]

>>10595964
So you understand now why people hate EA

[Anonymous No.10597463]

>>10597357
flight sim only has you flying a plane. immersive sims have layers of interplaying systems that are active in real-time. Arx Fatalis was one, where you could add water to wheat and make dough, and put that on a hot surface and it became bread, which you could eat to regain health.

[Anonymous No.10597467]

>>10597294
I played and loved all of the earlier Ultima games. I have no problem with what you posted. I don't even consider Underworld I and II to really be Ultima games, but they are great games.

[Anonymous No.10597476]

>>10597463
>Arx Fatalis was one, where you could add water to wheat and make dough, and put that on a hot surface and it became bread, which you could eat to regain health.
which it got directly from ultima
you realize arx was basically an unofficial sequel to u:uw right?

[Anonymous No.10597667]

>>10597302
>game world has multiple objects and systems with interlocking properties - evident and latent - that both "Act" upon and "React" to other objects and systems, aka an "Act/React" system or similar system that exists in the game code
>a systemic "Act" can be applied to a corresponding systemic "React" for emergence not always foreseen by the developer.
Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me you have no idea what you're talking about. What you're trying to describe is Stimulus/Response which some (actually most) immersive sims use for object interactions. In Thief and System Shock 2 specifically it's called Act/React. It's a really sure-fire way of creating consistent emergent behavior (and that's the whole point of immersive simulation - realistic emergent gameplay)

BUT this was only introduced in Thief and several immersive sims DON'T USE THIS. Ultima Underworld, System Shock 1, Terra Nova, Deus Ex(!) and Arx Fatalis don't use stimulus/response. And the way you've tried to explain how objects "Act" and "React" with each other shows that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry, you've taken something close to an actual explanation of wtf an immersive sim is and turned it into fucking world salad.

>>10597357
The other guy's full of shit. Ancient term from Looking Glass, coined around the time they made Ultima Underworld. Basically it was the way they designed systems their 3D games in a way that produced consistent, realistic emergent behavior. Neat stuff, super ahead of their time. Gets confusing as to what is or isn't one now though, since tons of the shit Looking Glass invented is common place/standard in 3D games now. But on the other hand some stuff they did is unusual to see even now: i.e. Thief's Act/React system which is literally what the Chemistry Engine from the nu-Zelda games basically is.

[Anonymous No.10597720]

>>10597476
besides the point, I was giving an example of an imsim, how it's differentiated from the likes of a simulator

[Anonymous No.10598095]

>>10596002
No, that's a nice homage.
Electronic Arts did steal the name Origin for their shitty distribution platform though

[Anonymous No.10598424]

>>10595964
I really only enjoyed the first 3 games. The other ones are fine but I never could get into them.

[Anonymous No.10598431]

Everyone says Ultima VII is a masterpiece but I dropped it when I realized I couldn't sell my loot.