/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10035283]

>MiSTer will never be able to run N64!
Welp, the MiSTer FPGA N64 core FPU is nearly complete, some floating point demos are working now. So where are all those naysayers now?

[Anonymous No.10035315]

Skeptics never admit they're wrong.

[Anonymous No.10035319]

>>10035283
Do you have the link to the video from which the png originated?

[Anonymous No.10035376]

>>10035319
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FNm1y3fYY

[Anonymous No.10035378]

Cool? PCs have been able to play n64 games for over 20 years now

[Anonymous No.10035382]

>>10035376
That is cool, but there was one with music.

[Anonymous No.10035401]

>>10035283
i like playing n64 games on my n64

[Anonymous No.10035405]

>>10035382
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrC1KHRkl0 at 14:12 but it has a guy talking over it.

[Anonymous No.10035412]

>>10035283
>naysayers
but we werent. it was just highly unlikely

[Anonymous No.10035440]

>>10035283
Is this a "real" FPGA core though? I thought the idea was that some of it would have to be offloaded to the DE10's CPU, making it hybrid emulation.

[Anonymous No.10035442]

>>10035440
The concept is that DE10-Nano might be not large enough to run the complete N64 chipset. but it may run enough of it for games to be playable. If there's a larger FPGA platform which becomes popular among gamers in the future, the core could be ported there and run the complete recreation.

[Anonymous No.10035758]

>>10035283
Who cares. Just use a non-sweaty emulator.

[Anonymous No.10035994]

>>10035283
Welcome to 1998.

[Anonymous No.10036330]

BASED

CYCLE ACCURATE EMULATION

[Anonymous No.10036362]

>>10035283

To be fair, I don't really know what a MiSTer is, so it makes sense that I wouldn't expect it to run N64 games

[Anonymous No.10036384]

>>10035283
FGPA Everdrive>Steam Deck>>Asus Rog Ally>Aya Neo pro>KT-R1>>Retroid Pocket 3>>Anbernic RG552>Ayn Loki>Odroid>Recalbox>>>Raspberry Pi>>Homebrewed and CFW-injected PS Vita>Miyoo Mini +>Caanoo>>Aya Neo regular>>Powkiddy X28>>Ayn Odin>Miyoo Mini>Powkiddy A12>Anbernic RG505>>>Anbernic K101>Retroid Pocket 2/2+>Powkiddy v80>Anbernic 353X>Hacked and CFW injected 3DS>Anbernic 351p>>Analouge Pocket>>Game Park 32>>Anbernic 353p>Retroid pocket 1>Anbernic RG35XX>>Powkiddy RK2023>CFW-injected PSP>Powkiddy v90>>Minisforum>>Powkiddy v80>Anbernic 405m>Evercade>Coolboy rs-97+>Pirate multicart>BittBoy>>>MiSTER>>Retroid Flip>Poly Mega>Powkiddy a66>>Coolboy rs-97

[Anonymous No.10036406]

>>10035283
>So where are all those naysayers now?
Playing N64.

[Anonymous No.10036441]

>>10035440
>I thought the idea was that some of it would have to be offloaded to the DE10's CPU, making it hybrid emulation.

No, that was an older proposed plan because N64 was thought to be utterly impossible, but that has changed. The person currently working on the N64 core is going to fully implement it in the FPGA. Granted even he admits that he isn't 100% sure it will work out in the end, and that the MiSter version of the FPGA core will likely have to make some compromises before it will fit, but he is also working on a 100% core for any future FPGAs that will be a viable replacement for the DE-10 and a cycle-accurate software emulator as well. So far there is no known affordable FPGA that will work and no consumer CPU will be able to run the software emulator for years to come however.

[Anonymous No.10036529]

>>10035283
i still dont even know what a mister is and i dont care, from my understanding its some weird mess of chips used as a weird raspberri pi fake real hardware thing for retards who want real hardware but dont want real hardware to play on their epic hipster setup? never got the point of it, sounds stupid

[Anonymous No.10036549]

>>10036529
Pretty much. Think of it like buying a cheap computer to emulate but not having a real OS so less lag. Also analog output.

[Anonymous No.10036660]

>>10035315
I’m not wrong until I see some cucktubers breathlessly demoing it in realtime on their channels. Otherwise it’s all cope and smoky mirrors.

[Anonymous No.10036701]

>>10036441
Arria V GX Kit has a 360K LE FPGA and it's like $500.

[Anonymous No.10036745]

>>10036529
It is real hardware down to a circuit board level (when cores are finished which not all are). It's just not made the same year as failing old hardware. Because it's exactly the same except the cheap plastic outer shell that consoles have, it really makes coomlectors seethe like nothing else.

[Anonymous No.10036753]

>>10036745
It's real hardware down to a circuit board level (IFF it's programmed perfectly, flawlessly and has zero bugs)

[Anonymous No.10036761]

Ok, but is this just implementing a software emulator in a FPGA or are they somehow implementing the N64 CPU and GPU on the FPGA? If the latter, are they using silicon scanning or something to duplicate real hardware?

[Anonymous No.10036846]

>>10036529
Basically, you know how some people prefer playing on original hardware instead of emulators either because they prefer the accuracy, latency, plugging it into a CRT, the original controllers, or just the feel of playing it on original hardware?

Imagine if you could take all that along with everdrives/ODEs for all the systems and mash them into a single tiny box, that's basically what it is.

>>10036701
>Arria V GX Kit has a 360K LE FPGA and it's like $500.

Exactly what I meant by viable replacement. An entire MiSTer setup costs less than that, and the DE-10 Nano used to be $150 until the chip shortage. Of course FPGAs that can do it and more exist, the issue is the cost. The only reason the DE-10 is even viable is because it's heavily government subsidized. Terasic's other FPGA board which is basically a stripped-down DE-10 that has considerably less features, including no ARM processor, actually costs more because that one is not subsidized.

Although I did see this interesting one that costs about $120-150 that would be more than enough, but since it's just a FPGA chip and storage alone you would need to pair it with something like a Pi to turn it into a supercharged DE-10 equivalent, but there must be something wrong with it that I am not noticing as it's WAY too good to be true. A FPGA that is considerably more powerful than the Cyclone V on the DE-10 yet costs a fraction of the price despite not being subsidized?

>>10036745
>>10036761
It depends how the core is designed, a lot (but not all) did rely on decapping chips, although even some of the more accurate emulators were designed this way. I don't believe any of them are a 1:1 recreation of the actual layout of the chips as that would be a waste of a FPGA but they can be designed in a way that they are more or less at an electronics level identical to the real hardware beyond what software can do.

[Anonymous No.10036880]

>>10035283
Cool, let me know when it plays games better than a software emulator and I'll be interested.

[Anonymous No.10036958]

>>10036880
It will soon and you will be so mad. Wait you already are.

[Anonymous No.10036972]

>>10035283
what was the reasoning behind the claim of it not being able to run n64?

[Anonymous No.10036973]

>>10036880
>Cool, let me know when it plays games better than a software emulator and I'll be interested.

You mean like this?

https://youtu.be/DAz08nzwWt8?t=127

And this is from a 2-month old alpha build of that core, which has had significant updates since that video was made.

[Anonymous No.10037009]

>>10036972
Some people have money invested in console collections while not being able to afford a mister, so they're mortified that normies are soon going to find out about misters and that they are just as good as or better than original hardware which will lower the value of the coomlector's possessions while raising the price of the mister which they already can't afford.

[Anonymous No.10037013]

PAGING MISTER FAGGOT
MISTER FAGGOT

[Anonymous No.10037020]

>>10037009
I am in favor of the MiSTer but I can't imagine someone who has money to have a collection of retro games considering current prices would not be able to afford one.

Also the company that makes the DE-10 could not give two shits about it being used for the MiSTer project and likely don't like it, as for the accessories those are open source and anyone could make an alternative if someone tried to jack up their prices.

I highly doubt the idiots paying hundreds to thousands for a game are also suddenly going to go "Wait a minute! People can build an enthusiast device to play this game" (despite software emulation existing for decades) and cause prices to tank.... unfortunately.

[Anonymous No.10037263]

>>10036846
>decapping chips
Is that what they are doing for the N64 core?

[Anonymous No.10037267]

>>10036972
Not enough bandwidth and not enough logic elements in the FPGA.

[Anonymous No.10037269]

>>10036973
I'm sorry, what does this have to do with the N64?

[Anonymous No.10037273]

>>10037263
No, a bunch of new hardware tests have been developed over the last year or so which will help, but that isnt just for the MiSTer core, Ares has already benefited from them too. I read Robert say that he is usign ParaLLEl and other software emulator documentation to help build the core, just like with his other work. Decappig chips is still pretty rare, especially on the console side of things.

[Anonymous No.10037275]

>>10036973
Martin has already said that when he is completely finished with the core MAME will get all the information they need to update everything on their end too, he said that is where all this work belongs for preservation.

[Anonymous No.10037279]

>>10037275
Isn't the source already out there?

[Anonymous No.10037284]

>>10035283
Can it run Knife Edge properly?

[Anonymous No.10037286]

>>10037279
Dunno, just rememebre him saying in the recent interview with Artemio that he needed to put everything together for them.

[Anonymous No.10038131]

>>10035283
These are cool tests, but Its still up in the air if the core will actually run games at full speed. Im certainly excited for this because I fucking hate my N64 and how much it overheats / freezes.

[Anonymous No.10038170]

>>10036384
Lol?

Me > You > 114 Shiki Ara Kami > Him > Extreme Dinosaurs Cartoon > MiSTer > Bill Clinton Election Campaign > Mega Man Soccer > FPGA vs Capcom.

[Anonymous No.10038564]

>>10037273
Hmm, well that's where the MiSTer promise goes awry. It's supposed to be hardware accurate, but it's a software interpretation of hardware implemented in FPGA rather than hardware implemented in FPGA. I does give potential for extremely tight timings and low latency but let's not pretend it's more hardware accurate than a software emulator.

[Anonymous No.10038667]

>>10038564
Not all of it is like that, also some of MiSTer's advancements result in people finding out flaws in software emulation they would not have found out otherwise, there have been multiple examples of this happening with MAME.

Hardware is designed in software before being mass produced physically after all.

The thing about FPGAs is that you don't generally do a 1:1 recreation of the hardware in them, and it's actually inefficient to do so unless you are prototyping said hardware for mass production. But you are still creating hardware that interfaces with things electronically instead of just simulating it in software, it's not a CPU, it's physically altering switches and gates to act like the hardware's silicon would. No software on a PC can do that because no component on a PC can physically alter itself like that unless you installed a FPGA chip in your PC. Even if it's software based it's nothing like just running an emulator on a CPU.

On top of the lowered latency because of no os overhead, you also have devices communicating with each other electronically in realtime instead of software having to simulate and wait/time these communications. That's also why you can directly connect original accessories to it. It can electronically communicate with them the same way the original console did, a PC can't do that, it literally does not have the ports for it, you have to make them go through a (usually USB) adapter that completely changes the signals to USB data and then the emulator needs another abstraction layer to interface with that.

[Anonymous No.10038682]

>>10038564
You post this all the time and refuse to read anyone who responds to you.
>You turned this software that immitates hardware, into hardware
Yes, hardware emulating hardware is more identical to said hardware than software emulating hardware.
Dont you fucking leave the thread like you always do.

[Anonymous No.10038963]

>>10038667
Well, some crazy coders did it for the GB
https://github.com/aappleby/MetroBoy

On the other hand, I had the chance to work on a SoC, and it's silicon was debuged on a PCB that cost 10k-20k, basically using 4 very high end FPGA to simulate the future silicon, and even like that, it was ~1/4 of the actual speed (some tweaks were made to make communication port work).
But silicon production costs so much that it was still better to emulate the beta version in FPGA than to have a run of 100ish chip (and the company was producing chips, so they could, theoretically, produce a small batch. It was still more expensive).

[Anonymous No.10039651]

>>10038170
Bullshit, and what is 114 Shinji Ara Kami. And extreme dinosaurs cartoon, WTF?

[Anonymous No.10039957]

>>10038682
>Dont you fucking leave the thread like you always do.
I'm not he, I'm another anon to whom the same thoughts have independently occurred.

[Anonymous No.10039963]

>>10035378
mister can play PCs, can PCs play mister?
checkmate PCtheists

[Anonymous No.10040447]

Hey, does anyone know if the aluminum case and USB hub from MiSTerAddOns will work with the Digital IO from UltimateMiSTer? My USB hub is shitting out and I was thinking about getting a different care anyway.

[Anonymous No.10040562]

Thanks, but I’m sticking with Batocera.

[Anonymous No.10041327]

>>10040562
Batocera contributor here. I'm glad you like our project, but our scope is different from the MiSTer. Both projects coexist and bring something useful for the players, though they're probably not fit for a same person simultaneously. However, MiSTer advancements really help us as a comparison parameter to what emulation should strive for.

[Dave No.10041342]

>>10035378
>Cool? PCs have been able to play n64 games for over 20 years now

[Anonymous No.10042067]

>>10035378
not well lol

[Anonymous No.10042846]

>>10037284
For what it's worth, there's apparently a hack that makes this game work properly in emulators already. Obviously not ideal, but the game can already be played outside of real hardware.

[Anonymous No.10043267]

w-waow it's in 1997 emulator status

$700 box that can be outdone by a $50 Optiplex + AMD card: justified.

[Anonymous No.10043274]

>>10043267
I am not for or against this project, but I think you missed the point.
Mister goal is to provide perfect emulation, not a fast way to play.
I mean, if you just want to play, like you said, an old PC or a raspberry pie with recallbox will be cheaper, and brings fun immediately.

[Anonymous No.10043275]

>>10041342
>namefag's a fag in another thread
shocker, fuck your gay jew name.

[Anonymous No.10043293]

>>10043274
It's only as perfect as the cores made for it, which are often derived from older
emulators and documentation, and many optimizations and cuts have to be made for them to fit and run well on that potato DE10 and paltry RAM. The DE10 will always struggle once modern-ish hardware acceleration and/or >100mhz CPUs are emulated. It ends up being far glitchier and incomplete in reality, especially when it comes to sound. The only real advantages it provides are proper peripheral support via snacs and low latency. The latter has been tackled by modern VRR displays (or VGA to RGB/component transcoders if you wanna go CRT), hard sync/frame delay, and run ahead as much as people want to baww about it.

Anyway buy an ad, SiSTers.

[Anonymous No.10043298]

why is it so expensive tho?

[Anonymous No.10043301]

>>10043298
Some faggot fell into a bunch of DE10s and by god he's gonna sell them for all they're worth.

[Anonymous No.10043447]

>>10043274
>Mister goal is to provide perfect emulation,
And, unless decapping is involved, how perfect can it really?

[Anonymous No.10043470]

>>10043274
>Mister goal is to provide perfect emulation
Yet the GBA core dev says he didn’t make it cycle accurate becuase it doesn’t need to be to play games. Jotego says he isn’t too bothered about what is happening under the hood is as long as the output is ok. If the goal was to provide perfect emulation then the project has utterly failed. There’s barely any fully decapped chip cores and even those that are like the NeoGeo are still riddled with bugs. MiSTer’s great with a few great advantages over software emaultion but saying it’s aim is to be perfect completely ignores the actual state of the cores and how they were put together.

[Anonymous No.10043793]

>>10043293
>>10043470
I didn't know that. I just knew the bare minimum about Mister, and it was a while back.
If that's the state of this project, eg, botching replica to get emulation running, then it's useless (or I don't understand the appeal).

>>10043447
You can get at least pretty close with hardware docs if it used off the shelf components.
But even decaping is far from perfect. As told in the GB talk, "You can clone a GB CPU, ok, but which one?" The Gb had a handful of revisions, and the first ones introduce glitches.
Also, do you fix silicon bugs or leave it as it?
So, yeah, I meant "reasonably close, but closer than just 'it runs pokemon!!1!' "

[Anonymous No.10043815]

>>10043793
>The Gb had a handful of revisions, and the first ones introduce glitches.
I expect to be able to choose the revision as per my liking so that I may obtain the glitches as may I desire.

[Anonymous No.10043881]

>>10043470
B-b-but... the FGC!!!
U've been owned!

[Anonymous No.10044059]

>>10041327
Thanks, but I’m sticking with Batocera.

[Anonymous No.10044116]

>>10043267
>$50 Optiplex + AMD card:
Why an AMD card specifically?

[Anonymous No.10044243]

>>10044059
Again, thank you. But you might've not understood what I meant. Please, don't create "little wars" between projects. We've had enough drama in the past, and it's time to move on. We respect all the devs affiliated with MiSTer development, just as they respect us.

[Anonymous No.10044326]

>>10044243
I cannot imagine serious software development projects taking /vr/ discussion seriously or using it as a temperature gauge for platform wars. The website with 37 snes vs Genesis and Bernie shiturn threads are all times should always be assumed to be borderline mentally ill. Talking about respect on here is even more insane given 90% of all mister and emulation threads are shit flinging. I’m not sure what you’re even doing here, and I don’t mean that in a “go back” way, quite the opposite if you actually contribute to any Linux distro you’re probably too successful to post here.

[Anonymous No.10044625]

>>10043815
That's basically on decap and retro engineering effort per revision.

[Anonymous No.10044746]

>>10037263
The verilog design of the entire N64 leaked out twice. Once in the late 90's and again, more complete, in 2020. They're definitely using that as reference even if they will never admit to it.

[Anonymous No.10044765]

>>10043267
>w-waow it's in 1997 emulator status

In 1997 Sega Genesis emulators couldn't even get the water effects in Sonic right or emulate the majority of SNES games with special chips, Nesticle couldn't even play every NES game. I remember when it was a big deal in the early 2000s that you could finally play Megaman X2 and X3 on ZSNES.

In fact, the first release of Nesticle, Zsnes, and Genecyst were in mid to late 1997, and they were barely usable.

It wasn't until about 8-10 years ago that cycle-accurate SNES emulation even became a thing, and it's still not a thing for systems more advanced than a SNES.

Nice try zoomietroll.

>>10043293
>which are often derived from older emulators and documentation

Some of them use bits of emulators yes (mostly cycle accurate ones), and of course use documentation. OLDER emulators and documentation? No. The whole point is to try to make it as 1:1 accurate as you can, nobody is basing the SNES core off of ZSNES.

>and many optimizations and cuts have to be made for them to fit and run well on that potato DE10 and paltry RAM

The default RAM module is 128MB, which is dozens of times more than any of the systems it emulates ever had, the only reason 128MB is used these days instead of 64 or less is because of how cheap it is. And that's not counting the fucking 1GB of RAM that's already on-board. The only reason a RAM module is even used is to connect it directly to the FGPA through GPIO to replicate the original hardware even more accurately. And no, the FPGA is not small, the N64 so far is the only system that will likely need to be cut down.

>>10043447
You don't need to decap a chip to replicate it perfectly depending on the chip and documentation.

[Anonymous No.10044767]

>>10044765
>You don't need to decap a chip to replicate it perfectly depending on the chip and documentation.
LMAO

[Anonymous No.10044773]

>>10043793
>If that's the state of this project, eg, botching replica to get emulation running, then it's useless (or I don't understand the appeal).

Because it's not, the idiot is lying. Wasn't that obvious with how much he was butthurt and ranting against the MiSTer?

MAME of all things had many glitches and inaccuracies found because of MiSTer being more accurate. An ALPHA core that managed to get Ninja Baseball Batman running ran more accurate than MAME did despite supporting that game for about two decades now.

Not every core is 100% accurate... yet. But it act like it's just a Pi box and that nothing is accurate or already more accurate than software emulators, or that you can only achieve that by decapping very very well documented and in many cases previously decapped chips is just flat out lying bullshit.

There is a reason it's becoming the only accepted replacement for official hardware in fighting game and speedrunning tournaments.

>>10044243
Pretty much what >>10044326 said

A lot of people here are here just to troll and start drama, MiSTer is especially a hot topic that many love to shitport against just to shitpost against. Don't take any of the "wars" here people are creating with Batocera seriously. The majority of people even starting those wars don't take the arguments seriously and just want to cause drama.

[Anonymous No.10045794]

>>10043470
MAME's goal is accuracy above all else, but the reality is that many drivers are a clusterfuck that bear no relation to the underlying hardware. But we don't write off the project goal just because of a hacky subset. Jotego's cores aren't even mainline and we're starting to see alternate cores for some of the systems as more people get interested in the project. Limitations in the DE-10 *will* mean that some more complicated cores will never reach parity with the hardware, just like your i3 will never run bsnes accuracy.
Don't miss the forest for the trees is all I'm saying.

[Anonymous No.10045825]

>>10035401
Me too but my N64's been freezing up lately.

[Anonymous No.10045892]

>>10035319
>>10035382
It's an Atari ST demo that became known for being ported to everything under the sun.
https://youtu.be/nqVJWFNpTqA
The music itself is taken from the Desert Dream demo for Amiga.
https://youtu.be/jziQBWQxvok
I like this Genesis port from Titan, the music is nice. From technical point of view however there's a fullscreen version available though.
https://youtu.be/kEoSXKgPcqU

[Anonymous No.10046240]

>>10045794
But my i3-6300 does run bsnes accurately! My post wasn’t writing off MiSTer in the slightest, I’ve used mine pretty much every day for the past three years and it fucking awesome, but that doesn’t mean I think or will say it’s something that it isn’t.

[Anonymous No.10046332]

>>10044326
I understand where you're coming from, since I access 4chan for a pretty long time. What can I say? First, I'm not "successful". I'm just a contributor, not a lead dev, but I'll stop here since I don't want to out myself (solely for privacy reasons). However, even if I was a lead dev, it wouldn't stop me from posting here. What some people don't get is there's difference between "accessing 4chan" and living here 24/7. You have your life, your job, your side projects, your hobbies and there's a time for browsing the internet, which can be partly spent at 4chan. You avoid the fruitless threads, the trolls and try to engage in informative or entertaining conversations. It depends on how you use it.

I know two other people who do real work and also post here. 4chan has its bad rep, deservedly, but it also has a bunch of knowledgeable or funny people really wanting to have a good time. You have to "hunt" for them though. Every tool has a learning curve, and 4chan is no different. Nonetheless, I admit that I can't spend much time here.

>>10044773
I was a bit jumpy, sorry for that. I do know how things tend to work here, I just didn't want, even as a meme, people posting "Batocera > MiSTer". I fear it would eventually bring trolls and drama to the official channels of both projects.

[Anonymous No.10046389]

Emulatorfags seething. Both of you are beneath real console chads.

[Anonymous No.10046929]

>>10046389
By console chad, do you mean Chad Stewart, british programmer who made huge advancements in computer graphics in early 70s, enabling machines like consoles to become reality?

[Anonymous No.10046945]

>>10035283
MiSTer will never be able to run N64

[Anonymous No.10047863]

>>10046389
right let me just spend 900 dollars on stupid fucking rgb mods, professional level crt with the right connection, and faggoty overpriced upscalers. youre retarded

[Anonymous No.10047872]

>>10047863
lol poorfag