/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.1001745]

Jrpgs with a depth to combat?

[Anonymous No.1001827]

SaGa Frontier 2, Grandia, SMT. There are obviously more, but none immediately come to mind.

[Anonymous No.1001846]

>>1001745
Unlimited Saga not /vr/, but w/e

[Anonymous No.1001845]

>>1001745
Clicking on menus is not depth.

[Anonymous No.1001849]

This one.

[Anonymous No.1001847]

>>1001845
And what is? Clicking to swing?

[Anonymous No.1001854]

>>1001851
>hurr durr if someone doesn't agree with me it must be a troll
>i hate opinions

[Anonymous No.1001851]

>>1001845

ok. why don't you contribute to the thread instead of being a contrarian asshole?

[Anonymous No.1001852]

>>1001847
Motion controls are the only truly deep games because you get to interact with matter in the 3rd dimension.

[Anonymous No.1001861]

>>1001849

i'd say the depth in vagrant story is more to do with the crafting of weapon and equipment management. the actual combat itself is horrible and boring as sin. it's the only thing i would change about that game.

>keep hitting attack until your turn is up
>select body part, barely any difference between most of them
>time shitty combos over and over to deal any damage
>whops my risk is 100 now

[Anonymous No.1001880]

>>1001854

i didn't say you were wrong, and i didn't say you were a troll, and you'd apparently rather greentext than explain yourself, so yeah. long as you act like a petulant child your opinion is worthless

[Anonymous No.1001894]

>>1001880
>implying it's actually called greentext
try harder

[Anonymous No.1001906]

>>1001852

[Anonymous No.1001917]

>>1001894
>implying memearrows aren't greentext
>>>/out/

[Anonymous No.1001941]

>>1001849
You get a lot of options to play with in VS, but the best strategy when fighting a guy is to keep attacking one bodypart with the most effective weapon, so the extra options don't mean much in the end.

[Anonymous No.1001948]

Is that a trick question?

[Anonymous No.1001981]

>>1001861
Implying sin is boring.

[Anonymous No.1001985]

>>1001981

>implying sloth isn't boring
>implying you know how to imply things

[Anonymous No.1001986]

>>1001985
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.1002614]

[Anonymous No.1002652]

>>1001948
>>1001845

This, very few JRPGs have any depth to combat. The Mario RPGs don't have strategical depth but they give another layer to the combat through action.

War Song and Fire Emblem also come to mind.

>>1001851

Not that guy, but...

He basically said that most JRPGs pretty much don't have depth to combat. Either you're retarded for not realizing that, or extremely butthurt(I'm guessing the latter).

>b-but he didn't contribute!!!

His opinion on the subject pretty much removed anything he could have contributed.

>THEN HE SHOULDN'T POST AT ALL

So, everybody here shouldn't ever say anything bad at all about anything, because it doesn't contribute to a thread about said thing? The line between no discussion due to everybody bashing it and and a circlejerk isn't fine at all, if that's what you're worried about.

[Anonymous No.1002653]

I especially loved how every character is vastly different

[Anonymous No.1002660]

>>1002652
>His opinion on the subject pretty much removed anything he could have contributed.
He implied that all JRPGs are menu-based, which by itself is completely false. His post benefitted absolutely nobody.

[Anonymous No.1002673]

>>1002660

Depends on what you consider an RPG. I can't think of anything I consider an RPG that doesn't have menu-based combat. That which doesn't have menu-based combat I call an ARPG.

[Anonymous No.1002687]

>>1002673
You think Ultima 1-6 aren't RPGs?

[Anonymous No.1002704]

>>1002687

The point is this: how many RPGs can you think of that use do not have menu based combat compared to the ones who do? Especially when categories such as SRPG, ARPG, ect exist? Very few. The overwhelming majority are menu-based.

>well, there are still a couple of them that don't have menu-based combat, so HOW DARE HE GENERALIZE!!! HOW DARE HE GENERALIZE!!! GTFO OFF MY /vr/!!!

I don't use "autistic" often, but you would fall into that category if what I greentexted is the case. Especially since the main topic in the first place is depth to combat and you went and got all super butthurt about generalizations in which it wasn't even clear if the guy even acknowledged in the first place RPGs without menus. It's a lot to base on an implication.

Point being, my fucking god, this is 4chan, not Wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.1002707]

>>1002704
And why are you assuming that OP's only looking for menu based games? How do you know he's not also open for ARPG and SRPG recommendations? Why do you assume he isn't? Fucking faggot.

[Anonymous No.1002708]

>>1002704
See the problem is that people will lump in srpgs and arpgs together with traditional jrpgs whenever someone says something along the lines of "jrpgs suck".

[Anonymous No.1002712]

>>1002704

I never said he was. This is about something complete different.

Reread the discussion, double-faggot.

[Anonymous No.1002709]

>>1002708
Because "JRPG" isn't really a genre

The proper term would be console RPG

[Anonymous No.1002713]

>>1002707
The term jrpg used to mean something, specifically used to describe the story heavy games with turn based combat. Now it's just any game with roleplaying elements (stats or whatever) from japan. Which is so general that it's useless as a category.

[Anonymous No.1002716]

>>1002712 was meant for >>1002707

[Anonymous No.1002725]

ITT: Autists get trolled

[Anonymous No.1002724]

>>1002709
console rpg isn't a genre either

'jrpg' just say it was published in japan (in other words if dragon quest were published by EA and no other changes were made it would not be a jrpg. Similarly if Ultima were published by square it would be called a jrpg)

'console rpg' just refers to the platform that supports it (which would mean ff7 is not a console rpg because it also has a PC release)


The only correct term is 'rpg' and even THAT has problems because the games arn't really about role-playing. They are about exploring and strategy.

The rpg genre has so many misused terms in it.

[Anonymous No.1002730]

>>1002709
A bit of googling tells me that it's not a very common term, or at least not as common as JRPG, which makes sense since it's even more vague.

[Anonymous No.1002734]

>>1002712
>Jrpgs with a depth to combat?
>Clicking on menus is not depth.
Yeah, something completely different alright. We're done here.
>>1002713
>The term jrpg used to mean something, specifically used to describe the story heavy games with turn based combat.
Wrong. It used to mean console RPGs, which were more simplistic and linear than the computer ones, for the sake of accessibility. But now westerners are making RPGs for consoles too, so some people think it describes retro-inspired RPGs like Etrian Odyssey and Pier Solar or anything in general with an obtuse amount of stat tables onscreen during a battle.

[Anonymous No.1002742]

>>1002734
What are you talking about? Westerners have always made rpgs for consoles. And there have always been simple, linear rpgs for computers. Are you just making things up now? The distinction makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.1002746]

>>1002742
How many /vr/ related western console-exclusive RPGs can you name?

[Anonymous No.1002750]

>>1002724
"RPG" doesn't work because games like FF7 aren't really RPGs, not in the sense that a game like Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter Nights is (char creation, immersive roleplaying and choice making, ability to DM a quest).

I don't think many people would argue that NWN and FF7 are in the same genre -- but most would just say "WRPG" and "JRPG", which aren't really genres. The west can make a JRPG (such as Anachronox or Costume Quest) and Japan can make a WRPG (such as Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls)

That's why I offer the Console RPG term, which basically means a game that is meant to be a facsimile of a true RPG, but isn't actually an RPG in and of itself. I mean if you want to get really specific, FF is basically a series of adventure games with squad-level strategic turn based combat... but that takes long ass time to write out. So I think I'll stick with console RPG unless someone has a better alternative.

[Anonymous No.1002776]

>>1002750

To be fair, even game like Baldurs Gate don't offer a true RPG experience. But it's a reasonable facsimile.

I just like to think of games like FF7 as RPGs where the game is the DM, and he doesn't take "no" for an answer.

However you want to classify them, JRPGs, CRPGs, WRPGs, whatever. They're all RPGs. They have stats and mechanics reminiscent of RPGs.

There's this whole big debate over WRPGs and JRPGs and whether they refer to where the game is made, or how the game is designed. Is Dark Souls a JRPG? It's definitely made in Japan. But design-wise, it's much closer to WRPGs.

Considering the fact that no one can agree on what WRPGs and JRPGs even mean, I don't like to use those terms.

[Anonymous No.1002779]

>>1002724

when discussing vidya rpg basically means that there is a level system and some stats.

[Anonymous No.1002784]

>>1002776
>Is Dark Souls a JRPG? It's definitely made in Japan. But design-wise, it's much closer to WRPGs.
It doesn't even resemble those very much. Unless you're talking art design.

[Anonymous No.1002787]

dodonpachi is best and most deep jrpg

[Anonymous No.1002791]

>>1002746
If exclusivity matters then the distinction makes even less sense since there are tons of jrpgs that are /vr/ and pc exclusive, yet have the same basic mechanics that jrpgs on consoles have. I mean, are you seriously suggesting that exclusivity and the platform the game is on define the genre?

[Anonymous No.1002793]

>>1002776
If your DM is a railroading shithead then you aren't really roleplaying.

[Anonymous No.1002814]

>>1002791
>jrpgs that are /vr/ and pc exclusive
How many?

[Anonymous No.1002815]

>>1002784

DS is more of an RPG where your actions, rather than "choices" determine how you role play. There are so many different things that can happen that kind depending on how you handle yourself.

One thing I liked about DeS was how you had character tendency which shifted depending on what actions you made. It also had a lot of classic DnD enemies like mindflayers.

[Anonymous No.1002813]

>>1002776
Dark souls is a beat em up (or hack n slash if you prefer)

Theres nothing western about it.

The art style is inspired by berserk a japanese manga (inb4 anything grimdark=western and anything cute=japanese).
The combat is based on onimusha (a japanese beat em up)
The game itself is an evolution of kings field (a japanese game)

The story has some branching moments but is not an exclusively western concept (ever hear of chrono trigger? or the entire VN genre?)

[Anonymous No.1002818]

>>1002813
Isn't Kings Field based off Ultima Underworld?

[Anonymous No.1002820]

>>1002813

It's dark middle ages fantasy.

Look at the architecture and design of basically everything. It sure as hell isn't Japanese.

[Anonymous No.1002824]

>>1002813
No its not its an action adventure game, and the art style is very western influenced because hmmmm lets see SWORDS AND SORCERY SHIT NEVER WENT DOWN IN JAPAN, it came from a manga? Big fucking deal the manga obviously drew inspirations from western fantasy too. Japs don't have castles of stone fagget

[Anonymous No.1002831]

>>1002824
So every JRPG now is a WRPG because it was originally influenced by Wizardry which japs loved predominantly because it was swords and sorcery shit?

[Anonymous No.1002846]

>>1002818
It may be, but if we keep this up we will end up reaching this conclusion: >>1002831

[Anonymous No.1002856]

>>1002831
I never said it was a WRPG or anything though I'm just saying your weeb is showing and its absolutely disgusting.

[Anonymous No.1002867]

>>1002814
A lot of them. They were being released since, like, 82-3.

[Anonymous No.1002890]

>>1002813

> The art style is inspired by berserk

yes a manga clearly inspired by the European middle age much like Full Metal Alchemist is inspired by late 19th Europe.

[Anonymous No.1002896]

>>1002867
Name some.

[Anonymous No.1002903]

>>1002890
And Persona 3 is inspired by Jungian philosophy, which came from Europe. Is it a WRPG too?

[Anonymous No.1002908]

>>1002890
pretty sure its berserk

saying berserk=western is like saying that all western rpgs are british because lord of the rings was written by a british person

[Anonymous No.1002915]

>>1002815
DS is more like an action-adventure game where you can level-up. For some reason leveling up is what people think equals roleplaying.

>>1002908
I hear Artorias draws a lot from Lancelot as well. I've never really read up on the round table though.

[Anonymous No.1002925]

>>1002903

obviously not but does make a statement about how it lacks any hint of western influence look completely retarded since there clearly is.

[Anonymous No.1002936]

>>1002908
Well, he said it was inspired by medieval europe, not that it's western, and obviously all those other similar looking western rpgs were inspired by medieval europe too.

[Anonymous No.1002957]

>>1002908

the setting and art design in berserk is extremely western inspired. the cities, the armor, weapons, clothing, name etc.

saying an art style is inspired by berserk is effectively to say its inspired by European dark ages which in turn means that there is a European influence in the art style. saying otherwise is just silly. there isn't some long standing Japanese tradition with this kind of art direction.

[Anonymous No.1002973]

>Dark Souls genre bitching
It never gets old.

It's an action-RPG, by the way.

[Anonymous No.1003002]

>>1002896
Like every rpg Koei released? Are you trying to impress me with your ignorance?

[Anonymous No.1003038]

>>1002896
Im pretty sure Enix and Falcom were both dedicated PC developers at one point, but none of their games from that era got localized (since they were released for japanese pcs) so we do not hear about them.

[Anonymous No.1003043]

>>1003002
>Koei
Are you trying to imply ROT3K and Nobunaga's Ambition are RPGs?

[Anonymous No.1003049]

>>1003043

You didn't even read the post...

[Anonymous No.1003060]

>>1003049
Go ahead, list me all those plethoras of PC exclusive RPGs Koei has made. Wikipedia lists two, both of which are more strategy games than RPG anyway.

[Anonymous No.1003092]

SaGa has deep combat? More like oh-boy-I-hope-I-randomly-learn-that-overpowered-attack

[Anonymous No.1003093]

>>1003060
And the others were first released for some pc or other first and Koei is not the only company that made computer rpgs at the time. The mechanical distinction isn't even drastically different compared to any other two jrpgs that aren't in the same series.
Seriously, your facts are obviously wrong and you have yet to present a logical argument for why "console rpg" is a dumb name for the genre. Expecting me to keep spoonfeeding you while you wait for a slip up is just silly at this point.

[Anonymous No.1003101]

>>1003093
>why "console rpg" is a dumb
Meant, "isn't", durr. Whatever, it's not like the original post isn't there anymore.

[Anonymous No.1003112]

>>1003092
>More like oh-boy-I-hope-I-randomly-learn-that-overpowered-attack
I see you're basing your opinion from RS3 as opposed to SF1. If you don't like that approach, then spec everybody in magic. Randomness comes into play mainly with the powerful-but-unreliable counterattack skills like Matador.

[Anonymous No.1003114]

>>1003093
My original argument was that JRPG = console RPGs and therefore console RPG is a VALID name for the genre, you mongrel. Good job keeping track of the conversation. And I'm still waiting for the Koei RPGs, you haven't even listed one. Or any other PC-exclusive japanese RPGs for that matter.

[Anonymous No.1003124]

Can we just get back on topic please or there aren't any other jrpgs with deep combat at all?

[Anonymous No.1003125]

OP here
all I wanted was to talk have a nice discussion =-(

Why you all argue so much? Dont you want fun time?

[Anonymous No.1003127]

>>1003125
RPG classification = srs bsns

[Anonymous No.1003128]

>>1003114
And it's still stupid because there are pc exclusive jrpgs and western rpgs on consoles. Which you are aware of now that you've made a visit to wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.1003134]

>>1003128
I'm still waiting for at least a short list of those, since the wikipedia visit didn't really help much. Bonus points if you list titles that aren't completely niche and therefore relevant to the broader scope that the classification is supposed to encompass.

[Anonymous No.1003152]

>>1002652

Yeah, I was pretty butthurt when I posted that last night, but for other reasons. Anyway,


>His opinion on the subject pretty much removed anything he could have contributed.
No it didn't. I mean the thread was kinda doomed from the start because "depth" is a vague term at best, but the OP was probably just looking for a recommendation for an engaging RPG. Coming in and saying "Clicking on menus is not depth." is helpful to no-one, and as another dude pointed out, a pretty stupid point to try to make anyway because jRPG gameplay is stereotypically but not definitely tied to "clicking on menus." At least your post gave a couple of examples.

>>1003125
I'm sorry dude. Maybe next time try to write a bit more out in the OP to clarify what you're looking for or want to talk about. We can't resist bickering about this shit.

[Anonymous No.1003183]

>>1002653
Man, I loved the shit out of the first game.
Does the second expand on the combat much?
Even if it didn't, I'd probably still love the fuck out of it.

[Anonymous No.1003443]

>>1003134
not that guy but eye of the beholder, dungeon master, the might and magic games on SNES and Genesis those are the dungeon crawler PC rpg style. A western RPG on a console would be like Dungeons and Dragons warriors of the eternal sun which plays just like a classic DOS SSI gold box game.

[Anonymous No.1003931]

>>1001745
I don't like combos in Saga Frontier, you need combos to beat boss with high HP, but I don't really understand how it works when I was still a kid.

[Anonymous No.1004309]

>>1003092
>More like oh-boy-I-hope-I-randomly-learn-that-overpowered-attack
That is one of the best things about SaGa games with glimmers. If you keep on pushing on and progressing through the game and fighting monsters around your power level and higher, with every single encounter you are opening up the possibility to learn a new skill.

Each battle has the potential to gain a new skill.

If you don't get one? You live with it and just make do with what you have. I mean who ever heard of randomness in a RPG before right?

>>1003931
You are suppose to experiment. The more you do the better you will be at making good combinations. Through experimentation I learned that Rising Nova, Plural Slash, and Bound Shot combo well with pretty much anything.

[Anonymous No.1004323]

>>1003443
>eye of the beholder, dungeon master, the might and magic games on SNES and Genesis
Those aren't PC exclusive

[Anonymous No.1004336]

What is deep combat in video games in general?

There are so many different genres that have combat like run n' guns, fighting games, shoot 'em ups, action platformers, RPG's, and even some racing games have combat.

[Anonymous No.1004346]

>>1004336
I guess I would say "deep" combat is any combat that has multiple layers to it or has some kind of nuanced complexities. Ie, more to learn and master than just pressing the shoot button or picking Knights of the Round.

[Anonymous No.1004349]

>>1004336
I'd say ideally something with a wide variety of options to select from, many methods of adjusting those options outside of combat, and most importantly that those options actually have practical uses in the game, as opposed to being stuff you never use in the entire game.

[Anonymous No.1004364]

>>1004336
>>1004346
>>1004349
you can measure the depth of combat by comparing how much influence skill has in it.

Imagine 3 players going through a game. A bad player, an average player and a good player.

If the game has high depth than the average player will look like a god to the bad player and the good player will look like a god to the average player

If the game has low skill than there isnt too much of a difference between the average and good player

If the game has almost no depth than the bad player can do most of the same stuff the average and good player can.

This is different from complex. An rpg can have a very complex character building but if 1 build lets you face-roll than all that seperates the good from the bad is whether or not they discover the face-roll build

[Anonymous No.1004398]

>>1004323
oh you mean a PC exclusive jrpg? well anachronax was already mentioned too