/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9965884
Literally no reason to buy this when emulation exists

>>9965884
No cause it's ROMs and free on switch anyways

>>9965884
I don't want to be that guy but I genuinely don't understand
>getting a Wii, hacking it and playing Mega Collection through backwards compatibility costs the same. Can do it on a CRT as well and there's also Gems Collection
>emulating it on PC is free and you don't lose much because as a collection Origins fucking sucks, especially compared to all of the previous Sonic compilations
And to top that off, even though Mania is great, these games literally weren't built around Taxman's engine, it just feels wrong

>>9965884
The ports are inferior to the original games. The cutscenes are nice and all but its a bit too absurd that they can't port these old as fuck games properly still to this day. This is ridiculous and needs to stop already.

>>9965884
I'm not one of those people that gets mad when someone has the audacity to pay for old games, but they really screwed up this collection.
This additions - a mode that combines all the games into one big game, new cutscenes, mission mode and a widescreen mode mean NOTHING when the physics of the original games are messed up. Removing songs from 3 is pretty stupid as well (how many times have these games been ported?). It's a shame because I could have seen myself buying this, at least on a sale.

>>9965972
does mega collection support 240p? i have been using the wii virtual console on my crt

>>9966264
GameCube came before Wii anon

>>9965884
> Throwing out 3D Blast in favor of regular Blast

Sega's retarded decisions never cease to surprise me.
But otherwise, a good attempt to bring back the classics for everyone who doesn't want to just download ROMs from internet. I am, however, not one of those people.

>>9965884
I hate it on principle because sonic team insisted on doing a buggy ass frankenstein of the retro engine and hedgehog engine instead of releasing the ports as the developers intended, just so they could remove the life counter and add 3d menus and monetization

>>9966264
To answer your question anon: no Mega Collection does not support 240p. You are better off playing the Wii VC versions as they support 240p and also emulate the sound better.

A lot of compilations released during the PS2/GC era for some ungodly reason only support 480i. If the port isn't by M2, it ain't worth shit.

Amy is the crush of many a Hedgehog fan.
Also, just play Sonic Jam on the Saturn.

>>9966267
yeah no shit, but does the goddamn collection support 240p or not? a lot of those ancient collections are developed by underpaid outsource studio devs that couldnt give a shit about the difference between 240p and 480i and were being paid to stuff as many ROMs on a disc as possible

>>9966283
thanks anon i'll keep steering clear of that overrated tripe

>>9965972
>>9966264
>>9966283
>>9966287
>>9966292
What are the best ports of classic Sonic games?

>>9966308
Sonic 3 AIR or Sonic 3 Complete
Sonic 3D Blast Director's Cut

>>9966308
Probably the ones already mentioned, the Wii Virtual Console ones. I'm also fine with Mega Collection and Gems Collection (if by classic you mean any 90s game) honestly because fucks sake I feel like I'm literally the only person who can't notice any differences between 480i and 240p

>>9966308
Just play them on Genesis, it is really that simple

>>9966314
>>9966315
>>9966316
Sonic Jam?

>>9966319
It's not great

>>9966287
It runs at 480i but I really don't see how this affects the games at all. It also has some of the comics if you care about that

>>9966315
I think that anon is just being super picky for no reason

>>9966319
It's annoying to emulate and the audio is bad. Just stick to Genesis

>>9966321
>I really don't see how this affects the games at all
makes them look really blurry and ugly

>>9966308
If we are sticking to retro or the Wii:

Genesis Quadrology (Sonic 1,2,3K,CD)

>Wii VC (powerplay is to just homebrew your wii and install Genesis Plus GX and play Sonic 3 Complete for Sonic 3K + have even more accurate sound)
>Sonic Jam (the only true port of the Classic games, as it's literally the original code recompiled and modified to run on the Saturn with little bonuses - the catch is that the CD has to seek for audio)

Sonic R
>Original PC release.
>PS2 version of Sonic Gems Collection, straight port of the later PC release I think, but because it's a port of that version, a lot of visual effects are lost.

Sonic 3D Blast
>Saturn.
>Or more practically Use Genesis Plus to play the Director's Cut done by Jon Burton (one of the original programmers for Sonic 3D Blast).

Game Gear Games
>Wii VC.

Misc
>emulate on Genesis Plus or something wwwwwwww

>>9966319
Unless you have a Saturn there's no reason to play Jam

>>9965943
it isn't roms, they're ports to taxman's engine

>>9966348
>Sonic Adventure
Dreamcast or PC with mods

>Sonic Adventure 2
Dreamcast or PC with mods

>Heroes
GameCube

>Shadow
GameCube

>>9966345
You're worried about blurry games on a CRT? That's how we all played them in the 90's lol

>>9966321
>It runs at 480i but I really don't see how this affects the games at all
Aside from interlacing looking garbage, the effect of blending dithering is diminished due more horizontal colour information

>>9966362
>taxman's engine

QRD?

>>9966372
just a new engine meant to replicate how Sonic's physics functions. You get widescreen and no slowdown. It's what's been used in the Sonic CD and so on ports since 2011 + Sonic Mania

>>9966368
480i isn't any blurrier than 240p, in fact, for the purposes of old games, it is quite a problem that it has more horizontal colour information

>>9966374
To be pedantic, the standalone releases on stuff like the 3DS and the Switch do not use the Retro Engine at all. They're emulated.

>>9966376
>more horizontal colour information
provided the game indeed has a wider horizontal resolution, which it almost certainly will; it ain't gonna run at 320x480

>>9966348
>Sonic R
Isn't the one in Gems basically a 1:1 port of the PC version? The visual effects you are talking about were already absent from the PC port iirc, it does have way better draw distance compared to the Saturn original which makes it the definitive version

>>9966365
Just want to say that people demonize DX so much that new fans think it's literally unplayable but the original Gamecube DX is honestly fine if you want to play on a CRT but don't have a Dreamcast

>>9966389
The PC version is a lot better, more animations and better character models (especially for Amy), rain and snow options for each stage, and the ability to play any level at daytime/sunset/night, plus some other options the Saturn version doesn't have

>>9966389
The original 1998 PC port of Sonic R actually added shit over the Saturn. The 2004 port gutted a lot of the added stuff. 2004 port was the basis of the Gems port.

>>9966395
if you wanna play on a CRT but don't have a Dreamcast just get a HDMI>RCA adaptor from Amazon for ten bucks. It'll only do 480i but it looks great and has no lag. Loved JSR and RE4 this way

>>9966308
depends on scenario

>you have CRT TV
original hardware, Wii VC is close but very slightly more latency

>you have CRT monitor
retroarch, original ROMs. you can also use sonic 3 complete but honestly s3&k is fine as it is

>you only have retarded widescreen nu-display
https://github.com/Rubberduckycooly/Sonic-1-2-2013-Decompilation
https://sonic3air.org/

t.he anon that cared enough to ask about 240p

>>9966382
3D Classics and Ages don't use Retro Engine but they are original ports, not emulation

>>9966406
>Wii VC
For the Wii it would be better to use GenplusGX

>>9966402
>>9966396
>there were two PC ports
I never knew about that

>>9966414
homebrew emulators are always less responsive than VC to me

>>9966368
its blurrier when the games are given a 2x bilinear upscale and displayed at 480i

>>9965884
>roms for 70 bucks
I'll pass

>>9966395
The original GCN port of DX is ok, still has a number of glaring issues that weren't present in the DC original but it's not as sloppy as the PC port; that broke even more of the game and excluded hardware-specific upgrades from the GCN version, and yet the PC port is what all later versions are derived from...

>>9966362
Which already exists for free on PC and sonic 3 has AIR

>>9966568
>all later versions
Ironically I've heard that the X360/PS3/Steam versions are even worse than the initial PC port lmao

>>9966582
Can confirm. SA1 on PS3 felt like utter shit and almost convinced me that the game really was bad all along, until I went back and played it on DC.

>>9965884
I'll probably get it... but I'm definitely gonna wait until I can get a played version for half the price off gamestop or facebook marketplace.

>>9966582
>>9966587
The best version of SA1 is original GDI (US 1.005, animated title screen) or Sonic Adventure DX (Deluxe) commonly known as SADX, the enhanced port of Sonic Adventure with SADX Mod Installer. Don't buy the X360/PS3/Steam versions

>Dreamcast
Sonic Adventure original GDI (US 1.005, animated title screen)
https://cdromance.com/dc-iso/sonic-adventure-usa/
Sonic Adventure DC-HD first release (60 FPS, widescreen, skippable cutscenes, restored objects etc.)
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/08/27/sonic-adventure-dc-hd-first-release/

>Windows PC
Sonic Adventure DX - Director's Cut (PC, 2004)
https://archive.org/details/SonicAdventureDXPC
SADX Mod Installer (This is a tool for Sonic Adventure DX PC that installs the latest version of MainMemory’s SADX Mod Loader and its dependencies, as well as Dreamcast Conversion and several other mods, which are sorted and configured automatically!)
https://sadxmodinstaller.unreliable.network/

>List of available Sonic Adventure (+DX) builds. SA1 can barely manage 30 fps on Dreamcast and had performance issues thanks to it using its own lighting engine, which is probably a huge factor into why SA2 runs at 60.
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/09/03/list-of-available-sonic-adventure-builds/

>This blog examines the differences between Dreamcast, Gamecube and PC versions of Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure DX, focusing on changes in the Gamecube and PC ports that can be considered downgrades from the original Dreamcast version.
https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/category/level-specific-downgrades/

The best version of SA2 is DC or Steam with mods

>Dreamcast
[GDI] Sonic Adventure 2 (US)
https://cdromance.com/dc-iso/sonic-adventure-2-usa/

>SA2 PC mods
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Sonic_Adventure_2#Modifications

>Sonic Adventure 2 Comparison: 700+ Changes from Dreamcast to Gamecube (20th Anniversary special)
https://youtu.be/3NWAbtnfy2Y

>>9966412
3D Classics is emulated actually; M2 developed a special Mega Drive emulator for the 3DS that modifies the hardware to better support stereoscopic 3D, and that's what Sonic 1 and 2 use on the 3DS.

>>9966582
>>9966587
>SADX code is based on a later version of SA1, most likely 1.005 or International. Also, all versions of SADX have a leftover texture archive with title screen textures from SA International.
>In 2010 SEGA released a bundle for PS3 and X360 called “Dreamcast Collection”, which contains ports of several Dreamcast games including SA1/SADX. Although it is bundled as “Sonic Adventure”, the core game in these ports is based on the 2004 PC version of SADX. However, it does put back the original Dreamcast title screen with ripples. While they share almost all of the downgrades of the original 2004 PC version, for obvious reasons these ports have completely different rendering and sound systems that were developed by SEGA of China. They use shaders for character lighting and switch back to the ADX format for music and voices. Interestingly shaders and textures for water distortion are also included, which suggests that they were going to reintroduce Gamecube water effects, but there is no water distortion ingame. In addition, the soundbank format was revised, and sound effects switched from WAV to ADX.

>>9966592
What about SA International?
I played the original Japanese SA1 and it was a fucking nightmare, but surely International is better?

>>9966308
>Sonic 1
Probably the 3DS version.
>Sonic 2
Community's Cut.
>Sonic CD
Unless you need on-the-fly soundtrack switch, original. Maybe with ++ hack.
>Sonic 3&K
AIR bar none.
1 and CD could really use the CX/AIR treatment, they run circles around the Retro Engine versions.

Based /vr/ not falling for the shilling.

>>9965884
So what does Amy do, exactly? I heard that she has a hammer attack (no doubt useless) and she spins with it to offer a permanent Insta-Shield piercing effect (no doubt gamebreaking).

No, Amy and Knuckles in CD is neat but fans will add them via rom hacks or mods to superior versions of these games.
>Game Gear version
The fact that these are not the Master System versions is so dumb it hurts and if you're gonna include non-remaster titles then include the fucking missing Genesis Sonic and stuff like Fighters, R and Segasonic.
>>9966595
>special Mega Drive emulator
But half of the 3d classics were based on arcade hardware.

>>9966690
>fans will add them via rom hacks or mods to superior versions of these games.
Yep

My dudes just play the Mega/Gems Collection duo, they are so comfy. Mega has all the ROMs you need. Gems' main games are based on the PC versions which are have the full quality FMV opening and ending on PC which the original SEGA CD couldn't handle plus none of the bad gameplay kerfuffle. The only thing you lose out on is 3D Bast but seriously just play the PC version if you want the Saturn goodies, or better yet skip it lol

>>9966739
Genesis version of 3D Blast is superior

>>9966751
How

>>9966761
Better aesthetics, better music, no load times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5p4ageAjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KrQNe7qv4

>>9966768
>better aesthetics
ROFLMAO
>better music
no
>no load times
negligible on my ssd

>>9966739
>Mega has all the ROMs you need.
Emulation isn't that great, especially if you're playing PS2/Xbox Mega.
>Gems' main games are based on the PC versions
Not StF, which trims out code so that Honey is no longer accessible (HD is best if you want that).
>full quality FMV opening and ending on PC which the original SEGA CD couldn't handle
PC FMVs are an extended cut that's in overall better quality, but resolution is still chopped up in those big borders. It's like a halfway point between original and Sonic Jam versions that all later renditions were based on and upscaled from. The original still has certain edits and effects not seen in the common "full" version, which is actually based on an unfinished cut. The actual, final, master copy of the animation seems to be lost.
>plus none of the bad gameplay kerfuffle.
Not sure what you mean. Gems Collection conversion was pretty bad, but PC itself was fine I think. Gems CD has tons of oversights, like Tidal Tempest water no longer being tinted and Stardust Speedway bad future background having an inverted lightning effect, or the debug mode being broken, etc.
>The only thing you lose out on is 3D Bast but seriously just play the PC version
Saturn still has the best version of Sonic 2 half-pipe, and I believe was done by original Sonic Team. Wish there was just a hack already that turns the game into a Special Stage time attack because the load times are so shitty that they're worse than Sonic '06, just not enough people played that version for it to be memed on. Also Knuckles and Tails routes were merged from the Genesis original so the game accidentally no longer allows you to get more than one Chaos Emerald per Act, but other than that it's great. PC Blast might load at livable speed and add a (half-assed, buggy) save system, but cool (at the time) weather effects are gone and Special Stages are easily the worst, pretty much like an amateur Flash game.
>comfy
Mega is kill and Gems is only okay for accessible R.

>>9966761
>>9966768
soul / soulless

>>9966859
>Not StF, which trims out code so that Honey is no longer accessible
The Fighters in Gems is the first non-arcade conversion of the game, it had never been ported before the collection came out. Honey was never playable in the original arcade release. I don't even remember how she got popular, fans datamining as usual perhaps

>>9965884
yes on xbone

>>9965884
>PS4
Wait are they still releasing games for the PS4? Lmao

>>9966308

>>9966690
Just a reminder that the best versions of Sonic 1 & 2 8-bit are the fan recreations.
https://sonic-sms-remake.blogspot.com/

>>9966917
Sonic 1 on the Master System is unironically one of the best Sonic games, didn't need a remake. I'm not a Koshiro dickrider, this game just resonates with me for some reason

>>9966917
Those are not good. The physics are rather messy, there are tons of additions to make them more "Genesis-like" that were born from a core misunderstanding: that all Sonic games are supposed to be S3&K Mania HD Super Emeralds, even though the 8-bit Sonic games were designed completely differently early on and resembled different platformers, and in general, those remakes are janky and not very accurate. It's nice for a fan project, but those are definitely not the definitive versions and the SMS originals are better.

>>9965884
>no original s3 tracks with mj/brad buxer
into the trash it goes

>>9967165
This.
>but the prototype-
Those tracks were not used for a reason. They sound more like rejected Sonic 2 tracks that got rejected.

>>9966934
That was my first experience with Sonic, as well, I've always preferred these games as a straight forward platformer. Pinball Zone is unironically better than the Sonic 1 and 2 Mega Drive special stages.

>>9967165
>>no original s3 tracks with mj/brad buxer
this is the biggest disapointment. seriously I'd definitely pay extra for it if it was possible.

>>9966602
International was the final DC version and I believe has a small amount more polish over NTSC, it's largely identical though.
>>9967197
Oh it's 100% possible, Buxter's alive and well and will take their money, SEGA are just cheap bastards that won't invest anything into a project like this. They couldn't be assed to get the proper prototype tracks. The SEGA of yesterday might have tried, Mega/Gems collection had a lavish presentation with loads of cool bonuses thrown in and Jet Set Radio had practically its whole soundtrack intact for its rerelease, but it's [current year] and they just want quick fanboy money.

>>9966362
The games being added via 'plus' are just ROMs, they're not ports like Sonic 1/2/3/CD.

Origins itself isn't terrible, it's just priced at twice as much as it should be. It's been on sale a few times now and honestly, its sale price should be its standard price. I have an OLED Switch so I can't hack it without a modchip and it's a nice quick way to get Sonic CD running on a handheld with a good screen.

>>9967165
Sonic 3's music wasn't good to begin with if we're being honest.

>>9966950
Yes, it is buggy as hell. I never really got the idea. I understand some may like those 8-bit games but they really weren't excellent Sonic games in general.

>>9965884
I'd only get it if they fixed the base games.

>>9967376
Switch has separate Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 by M2 that you can buy like on the Virtual Console. Shame there's no 3&K but Sega Ages on the Switch in general is lackluster, reminder that they promised Saturn games

>>9967376
>Origins itself isn't terrible
it is. deadlines and middleware meddling killed what was a promising Sonic 3 port project. why couldn't they have just released the devs' work unaltered like they did with Mania? why did they have to let Sonic Team turn it into this shite?

>>9967383
Not sure how much it changes the music but I've only ever played it linked with &K and the soundtrack was god tier

>>9965884
Nah, all the new stuff is dlc so w/e.

>>9966905
It's not funny anymore

>>9966761
Not him but the load times are annoying, I do think the Saturn version has much better aesthetics though. Music I'd call it a tie.

>>9966792
>ROFLMAO
You don't have to like it, you don't even have to accept it, but you will know this - the added ground texture in the Saturn version makes it harder on the eyes when you're moving at speed, and moreover isn't really in line with the other Genesis Sonic games, which don't tend to make their checkerboard dirt look realistic.
>no
Yes. Don't get me wrong - the Saturn version does have some amazing tracks. The title theme, Gene Gadget, and Panic Puppet themes are terrific, but the Genesis soundtrack is just peak Genesis.
https://youtu.be/t4-DQ4hGRJo
https://youtu.be/-b-4uPCbF34
https://youtu.be/h4ioYorKqYo
https://youtu.be/ezLGTcdZU8Q

>>9967816
Your Saturn hateboner will never work

>>9966690
>The fact that these are not the Master System versions is so dumb it hurts
Typical Sega of Japan Xenophobia. The original Master System versions were not released in Japan back in the day, so they tend to pretend those versions don't exist. The only meaningful time they acknowledged their existence is when they were released digitally on Wii Virtual Console. In fairness, the later Brazilian ports of Spinball and Blast belong in the garbage.

>>9969162
>they were released digitally on Wii Virtual Console
>2 and Chaos were PAL only on the Master System but they still released them in America and Japan on the Wii VC
Nice, everyone in the thread is saying about the original trilogy on Wii VC but I replay the Master System games on my Wii as well. Wii is a fucking Sonic machine with all the VC releases and its backwards compatibility

>>9966315
The 480i isn't too bad but it's definitely softer than 240p. The real deal breaker for me is the sound emulation being oever so slightly off (at least on PS2, haven't played the GameCube one recently)

1 Forever, 2 Absolute, CD Restored and 3 A.I.R. exist.

>>9966278
guess we have a hint why now

i've seen speculation that Superstars is a similarly glued together Retro Engine game, but with Hedgehog 2 as a graphics layer too

perhaps we'll find out when the game is out if the RE devs are in the credits?

>>9971268
https://twitter.com/CFWhitehead/status/1667138281124032514?cxt=HHwWhMDT3eHb7qIuAAAA

>>9965972
Don’t forget the ultimate solution:
>just get a mister and don’t even bother emulating

>>9965884
>Are you guys getting it?
No... why?

>>9969162
This one's a headscratcher. Not even the Japanese Wonder Boy Collections pretend that the Game Gear version of The Dragon's Trap is the only one. In fact, they default to western Master System as the OG, and the latest one even lowkey includes a previously-unknown JP build of that version. Is SoJ still really that sensitive all these years later about the early GG games of their flagship franchise being ports?
>>9970905
I can't speak for the 1 or 2 projects, but I know the CD one is notorious for smearing a bunch of fanfiction all over it.

>>9971280
lol ok yeah that's way too close to be anything but an HD graphics layer over RSDK game logic

>>9971331
Forever and Absolute are basically extended QoL mods of the Taxman remakes. Adding more to good things.

>>9971362
Forever has spindash turned off by default so it's good by default

>>9971331
CD Restored needs the Knuckles addon to fix that bullshit, after that it's great

>>9966406
oh also
>you have CRT TV
taxman versions of sonic 1 2, cd and mania have homebrew wii ports with 240p but idk how good they are

>>9971303
how exactly does mister work? why is it not considered emulation. explain as if i'm a retard bcz i am

>>9971435
physically transforms into the console it's simulating but with all the conveniences of modern hardware (modularity and modern i/o, mostly)

best of both worlds imo and i love original hardware

>>9965884
>not complete on cart
>new content on a DLC card
It's like Sega is trying to push their unsold stock
This is what it should've been from the start, so I ain't impressed

>>9966425
>>9966402
>2 ports of Sonic R
>New port sucks
Why does Sega keeps doing this. They did this with SADX too and fucked it up further

>>9971268
>Superstars
Eh?
Oh, I see, they finally fixed Sonic's palette, cool.
So is 2011~2022 gonna be remembered as that odd-decade time when Sega pretended that Classic Sonic was always a lighter shade of blue?

>>9971553
imagine this game outsells its modern sonic counterpart again and classic becomes the main series kek

actually that's not gonna happen since it's full price this time

>>9966270
It probably has something to do with their arrangement with Traveller’s Tales having lapsed, hence it being sold separately as a director’s cut edition

>>9971553
Not to say that it's canon or anything but Sonic was light blue in the first 8 bit game and also in CD's cutscenes

>>9971553
All I know is it better fucking have Mecha Sonic. So sick of seeing Metal plastered everywhere.
Hell, if they're really serious about the four-player co-op gimmick, give us a dream tag-team battle of the Mecha Sonics from Sonic 2, 3&Knuckles, 8-bit, the Fighters and/or Adventure! That's too cool for Sega, though.

>>9965884
I feel obligated to buy it, only because switching between Mega Collection and Gems Collection back & forth is a bit cumbersome. I own both but on different consoles, so purchasing this will be very convenient.

>>9971553
I think they did it to make Classic more visually distinct from Modern (not that Modern isn't due for an overhaul). It makes no sense to carry that over in games with Classic but without Modern. I wonder if Sonic Origins Plus will replace that Sonic in menus and add Amy and Knuckles now that they have modern Classic models.
>>9971576
He was light-blue in that sketchy artwork seen in the Japanese Mega Drive manual, but everything was more pastel in that style. CD's animation just has a poor master and the colors are faded. The image is supposed to be darker than the release versions indicate, but if you're used to how the picture looks, it looks wrong.

>>9971638
>CD's animation just has a poor master and the colors are faded
Genuinely makes it more charming

>>9971373
Mania port is rather bad, all the homebrew Mania ports are in fact, lags to single digit FPS in the special stages and other taxing areas. Haven't tried the others.

>>9971734
at least it looks cool

>>9969162
>>9971331
Triple Trouble and later 8-bit Sonic games were Game Gear-only because the Master System was dropped. Sega likely wants to keep it all consistent and so GG ends up being the default versions used.

>>9971563
Forces outsold Mania, few things sadder in gaming then that.
>>9971553
Superstar looks neat.

>>9972087
>Forces outsold Mania
Switch sales don't count

Sonic Origins is literally the best way to play Sonic. It's basically the taxman ports of the games from mobile. Only the most autistic Sonic fans will seethe because Sega tampered with the code to put some other things but for non aspies it should be fine and you get all the QoL improvements. If you don't like the music that's a valid complain but at least on PC it's literally a non-issue that you can fix. Don't bother getting shitty fan rom hacks they're just worse versions of the game full of aspie sonic shit.

If you just want to play the original Genesis games without tampering then just emulate the Genesis games, even the "shoddy" Mega collection version is fine for pretty much 99% of people playing it.

>>9972193

Might get it, Amy is always cool in my book

>>9965884
I've seen people clamor for classic Amy for years, but her big break in her character arc is supposed to be in Sonic Adventure. At any point earlier in the lore, she doesn't have any business being a badass

I might get it when it goes on sale. I already have the Genesis versions, but I love these games.

>>9972448
>character arc

>>9971553
Sega's flip-floppy business lately is really pissing me off that their bullshit ain't workin' on me.
>Sonic Frontiers turned out to be pretty good despite the initial doomposting
>Removes Sonic's 1 - 3 and CD from storefronts (and Tails and Knuckles from the games to sell them as DLC) and repackages the games in a half-assed, buggy collection, still no playable Amy, $40 + tip
>1 year later re-release the same damn collection now with playable Amy, at the same damn price
>Superstars looks to be fun, but they're still holding Amy hostage behind a newsletter for an exclusive skin
And some people WONDER why some of us pirate vidya.

>>9972963
Superstars is also $60

>>9972510
Yes

>>9971563
If anything it's more of a stylistic choice at this point, they've been entertaining the idea as early as 2013, possibly earlier

>>9973203
>possibly earlier
wasn't 2011 when they split the timeline so there could be one where Sonic is still a mute autistic kid?

>>9972448
Anon, no one cares about the storycrafting of some smelly ~30 year old game, fems just wanna play Amy no questions asked and this is a quick buck

>>9972448
they could always just develop classic Amy as a separate character anon

classic lore post-Generations is divergent from modern lore and they could easily just develop characters separately if they actually feel like it

i hope so at least. it would be a shame if the $60 nu-sonic game doesn't have any story because it's supposed to be "retro" or whatever. waste of a timeline split if the characters stay 1-dimensional babies forever

>>9973390
>classic lore post-Generations is a timeline split divergent from modern lore
Anon, they walked back on that and are now pretending that the "alternate dimension" lines from Forces was just misspoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnqXIGA_UQ
And Ian Flynn also confirms in his more recent Bumblekast questions that Classic is currently still set as Modern's past, though I wonder if the marketing of Superstars as Sonic's "all-new look" is going to upend that notion.

in two weeks we will have it.

>>9973390
>they could always just develop classic Amy as a separate character anon
They sort of did that with Rosy the Rascal in the comics but I never really followed them heavily

It's funny, I hear people complain about the Game Gear ports but, the more I think about it, how many Sonic fans have actually played all 12 GG titles? I'm a ride-or-die Sonic fanboy and off the top of my head...

>Sonic 1: Ragequit at Jungle Zone
>Sonic 2: Ragequit at the first boss
>Sonic Chaos: N/A
>Mean Bean Machine: Got fucked up by Scratch
>Sonic Drift: Beat the whole thing
>Sonic Spinball: Beat the whole thing (easier than Genesis version)
>Triple Trouble: N/A
>Sonic Drift 2: Got halfway before boredom set in
>Tails' Skypatrol: N/A
>Tails Adventure: N/A
>Sonic Labyrinth: Beat with a ton of save states
>Sonic Blast: Lol who cares

Honestly, you can ask people the same about the main games in Origins. Sure, you beat Sonic 1, but did you get all the chaos emeralds? Have you done a playthrough of S3&K with all three characters? I mean it's physically impossible to experience all of Sonic CD with a single save file. And Sonic 2... I might be biased but I secretly think a lot of people suck at it and just pretend they didn't get filtered at the fourth special stage.

>>9973692
You probably won't believe me but I've beaten all of those except for Mean Bean Macine, Spinball and the Drift games. And got the best ending in them too. Sonic 1 is literally the only good one lmao. You probably want to try Triple Trouble because everyone says it's good but don't be fooled, it's the second best 8 bit Sonic game after the very first one, yes, but it's still shit. The vast majority of them were developed by Aspect and they literally never got it right. Man you know how they say that Sonic fans hate Sonic games? This isn't even an ironic meme, like 70% of the games are genuinely bad
> might be biased but I secretly think a lot of people suck at it and just pretend they didn't get filtered at the fourth special stage.
I'm positive that even like half of the people who call it their favorite video game of all time have never collected all of the emeralds. And there's nothing wrong with that, fuck chaos emeralds!

my 3 year old is all about sonic. she likes the movies and the games a lot. probably not going to buy this considering theres a thousand other ways to play these games already.

>>9973568
>timeline split retcon
>classic sonic is literally just sonic's childhood still

wait, seriously?? i was completely sold on the concept that kid sonic and adult sonic meeting in Generations split off another "world" that Mania takes place in, whatever terminology they decide to call it that day. how do they plan to explain it as anything *but* that??? like, holy time paradox batman

t. bookmarked video cause busy, will watch though desu

>>9971553
The fact that he actually looks kind of cool instead of "haha cute baby snoic" gives me a bit of high hope, but you just know it's going to have the zoomer no-life bullshit they forced in Origins.

>>9973971
>zoomer no life bullshit they forced in Origins
hopefully the game will actually be balanced around checkpoint abuse this time and be challenging, right? right???

>>9973975
I imagine there'll be a difficulty selection at the start like Sonic Frontiers. Really a few Genesis games did this best by hiding content behind the harder modes, but I don't see Sega having the balls to do that anymore. Remember when that ToeJam & Earl game called out easy mode players as being for lil' kids? These days, something closer to normalcy will be "for hardcore gamers" or some shit. Times sure have changed. I blame the rise of sandboxes as "games," personally.
>>9973969
If you think about it, a split timeline means that the classic reality is....kind of doomed? I mean, Chaos and Tikal will never know peace, and without Shadow and the ARK being dragged out of stasis, the Black Arms are going to invade at some point with probably a different outcome. It's literally the bad ending scenario. Not that sandwiching nuClassic between olClassic and Modern was the right call. Sega should ideally just merge the designs already going forward so there's 1 Sonic brand identity.

>>9974019
>merge the designs
then how are you supposed to tell which sonic games are the good ones and which ones are bad?

>>9973692
I've done it all, and let me tell you - people would be more willing to try out the 8-bit games if they weren't always getting locked into the shitty versions. Wasn't the Wii VC the only time the Master System versions of any of them were rereleased?

>>9974030
How can you now? Classic Sonic has an even higher proportion of absolute trash games than modern does.

>>9974030
I mean, it was always kind of silly to judge that from the character designs alone. It's all coming from the same corp. Does Mario have a "classic" design for his sidescrollers? He was more portly and had shorter limbs, but say what you will, Nintendo doesn't split the whole brand over it. All the coexistence of Classic and Modern Sonic means is that Sega has a brand identity crisis. Also, Modern has been "modern" for a QUARTER-CENTURY. I hope Sonic Adventure 3 (which Iizuka assures us will happen) recognizes this.

>>9973568
>Tails: and then Classic traveled back through the dimensional portal back to *his own time*
this is literally a timeline split how is this not a timeline split there is no way these are not completely separate universes now???? you don't just meet yourself from the future and not live out a completely different rest of your childhood

who cares whether they are called "dimensions" or "universes" or whatever, this event makes them distinct worlds??? right??? i am so fucking confused

>>9974019
>I imagine there'll be a difficulty selection at the start like Sonic Frontiers. Really a few Genesis games did this best by hiding content behind the harder modes, but I don't see Sega having the balls to do that anymore.
Frontiers literally locked the real last boss behind Hard mode. Even though it's really just fucking Ikaruga.

>>9974093
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gspf3gyQaY&t=833s

>>9974554
>wait so if classic and modern are the same timeline now how the hell does *motions to all the time paradoxes* work?
>ok moving on


KEK

>>9965884
Why is the emulation so bad though? These games are decades old.

>>9965884
I was going to, but no.
This shit's fucking stupid, why is it not on the disc

>>9965884
>Are you guys getting it?
Only if Sega/Headcannon manages to unfuck this buggy collection, maybe. Judging by the Knuckles CD gameplay: they're not going to bother to remove the blur, change the boring save system, lifes on anniversary, etc.

>>9974874
they're not emulated

>>9973969
Classic Sonic isn’t Kid Sonic. He’s 15 like his Modern counterpart, just as Classic Amy is 12 like her modern counterpart. Everyone’s the same age, it’s just a different art style.

>>9975394
Classic Amy was Tails' age for some reason.
Not like it matters because the set ages were retconned.

>>9971553
Calling it now.
>No Drop Dash because FAKKU YUU GAIJIN
>Soundtrack is gonna suck (wtf is that Twinkle Park riff)
>4-player co-op will be chaotic as hell, just remember how lost Tails can be
>Fang's role will be miniscule and new threat will play off tropes we've seen before
>Super Emeralds will be back to replace the Chaos Emeralds' traditional role but Hyper forms are still gone.
>Like the Sonic 4 Little Planet cliffhanger, the Eggman dimensional cliffhanger in Mania Plus Encore will be ignored
>As evidenced by Modern Amy's unlockable outfit, this game will be positioned as the new bridge between Classic and Modern eras, and the Emeralds will grant the Classic cast brand spanking new eyecolors in the ending
Thanks for playing!

Anyone see the new gameplay for superstars? It looks kind of awful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b89jNPYIA2I

>>9974904
Wait, what the fuck? If this is the case I’m gonna pass too. The novelty of having it all on a switch cart was the only reason I was sort of interested.

>>9975565
>Soundtrack is gonna suck (wtf is that Twinkle Park riff)
ngl the soundtrack is giving me serious Sonic 4 vibes, they have the Mania guys RIGHT THERE and aren't using them, I dunno why Sega's obsessed with Twinkle Park so much but the remix made more sense in Episode II where at least it played in the right stage theme, xrossing my fingers with is all placeholder.
>Super Emeralds coming back just to upgrade everyone to modern designs and then fuck back off forever
kek I can totally see something dumb like that happening.

Jesus, this thread is still up (OP)

>>9975565
>>9975738
The 10 minutes they’ve shown off so far is looking rough to say the least. It looks like the worst parts of the 8-bit games rather than the best parts of the Genesis titles. One level is just on rails trial and error tunnels, the next has a really annoying “darkness” gimmick that just cuts off visibility

>>9975738
Yeah, why are people saying it looks good? It doesn't look god awful or anything, but to say it looks amazing just isn't accurate. It looks like shovelware.

>>9975785
Because consoomers gonna consoom. They see classic sonic, think it’s a return to form without analyzing it, then the inevitable disappointment. I think the gimmicks and level designs are going to kill this one.

>>9975738
>that soundtrack/sound design
nobody wants a 3D game that is obsessed with using Mega Drive samples. what the hell are they on

also it looks a lot more like Generations classic in gameplay than it did in the trailer. more accurate but with all the readability and gimmick issues. this is so disappointing

>>9975797
Yeah, it doesn't look terrible but it looks like a average dlc game. I mean, at what point I we still going to use classic sonic? It was so awesome seeing him in Generations, it was cool seeing him on Mania, but how many times are we going to keep using this gimmick? Just because Green Hill Zone is being repeated for the 100th time doesn't mean it isn't just nostalgia pandering, the whole gimmick of classic Sonic is that.

>>9975819
Why is classic Sonic still being used? Do people really hate Modern Sonic that much? I mean, it seems like everyone is over the whole "GENESIS ERA IS BACK" thing.

>>9975778
It looks very early in development but comes out this fall? I can't imagine it change that much in that small time period. Thoughts?

>>9975819
It’s wild how they have such a hard time capturing the feel and physics of the originals.
>>9975827
Classic sonic could be more than just pandering bait, but they need to take it somewhat seriously. I mean, when you play romhacks and fan games you begin to see just how lazy and bad at developing sonic games Sega has become. Like you said, this one feels like it’s mostly banking on nostalgia while adding in a bunch of gimmicks that don’t really look good. They aren’t subtle like the ones mania added in and so far the levels don’t seem like they pull off what made classic sonic games fun.

>>9975839
My thought is that if the 2 levels they have shown off are anything to go by, this game is in massive trouble. They don’t look fun and trying to throw co-op into the mix of a fast paced platformer is going to feel miserable or tacked on in the best case scenario. I think it’s gonna be real bad

>>9975565
>No Drop Dash
Hey that's right, it's conspicuously missing from footage. That's weird because Sega seemed all in on it and started retroactively porting it (poorly) to the older games.
>>9975842
>It’s wild how they have such a hard time capturing the feel and physics of the originals.
The feel, yeah, but it looks like Sega aped the Mania devs in regards to physics >>9971280
I think the primary reason it's the classic style is because the movesets are going to be basic, whereas modern style tends to have more involved controls.

>>9975862
I thought the co-op in Sonic 4 was fun. No, it wasn't an amazing game but I had fun. It is just weird seeing people praising this from this footage that doesn't look very good. It looks just like Sonic 4, but people are praising it just because it has classic Sonic in it.

>>9975835
people like the classic gameplay and the old designs are good marketing shorthand for it, but they seem weirdly obsessed with not letting classic Sonic develop its own style and hook besides some corporate "it's like modern but cute" style. they should've just kept the timeline split for lore safety and paid the fan studios to handle this one (and been flexible with deadlines holy FUCKING Sonic Origins bullshit). nobody wants Generations classic for the third time even if the physics are slightly improved

this literally looks like classic sonic nsmb in the worst ways

>>9975770
>they have the Mania guys RIGHT THERE and aren't using them
You might want to take a deep breath before you check this out: https://twitter.com/TeeLopes/status/1667718371746488327

>>9975883
It is just so overdone at this point imo. Sonic Generations was a good move, you have to keep in mind that Classic Sonic just wasn't really thing before that, seeing him back in 3D was amazing. We don't need him to be just a cast member really. It is like that really good movie that really doesn't need a sequel, but they just keep making them over and over, and the sequels are so bad people can't even like the OG one now.

>>9975819
nm apparently it's placeholder music from s4e2 we're safe

>>9975867
Watch that 10 minute gameplay. In some ways the physics are the same, in some ways they aren’t. For instance, in the video sonic is going full speed, hits a ramp, and his momentum just dies, though that could have been the journalists fault.

I think the biggest issue is going to come down to the levels being horribly boring to go through. On the levels shown the game is all but holding your hand through them. Hell, even the Frontiers “classic” levels looked more challenging and I think a big part of that is to account for the co-op. There are romhacks with better level design than what has been shown.

>Fang being described as an "old nemesis"
Guess the theory that Triple Trouble was Knuckles' alternate-universe introduction is btfo.
>>9972448
I don't mind a playable classic Amy if it's done right, like modern Amy in Advance 1. It's fucking bizarre seeing her run around at the same speed as the boys, though. She for sure doesn't even remotely catch up to Sonic until her strength-training sometime after Adventure 1.

>>9975565
>Like the Sonic 4 Little Planet cliffhanger, the Eggman dimensional cliffhanger in Mania Plus Encore will be ignored
What cliffhanger? That's just Eggman getting comically blasted off again for humor.

>>9972448
It's not so bad in Origins Plus where it's clearly a noncanon extra like the bonus Tails/Knuckles campaigns.
>>9975943
Sonic Adventure can be excused by the fact that she has a bird flying alongside her the whole time (except for her one boss fight, but even still, she's in an enclosed space there).

>>9972448
"lore"

It is a fucking kid's game, anon. There is no "lore"

>>9975943
>It's fucking bizarre seeing her run around at the same speed as the boys, though.
And that I think puts my finger on why playable Amy feels off to me. She's clearly designed to be a supporting NPC. Tails has that propeller gimmick to compensate, and Knuckles gets a pass for being Sonic's first rival and a rarity in his world. What's Amy's excuse? By having her do loop-de-loops and shit effortlessly, in THOSE clunky shoes, you're making her a better Sonic than Sonic. Imagine if she was wearing the right footwear! AND her hammer makes her a better Knuckles due to its power and range. Oh, Tails and fly and Knuckles can glide? No one cares anymore because those skills kill momentum. She's Sonic's match now, which isn't how it should be. The only playable female Sonic character I ever liked from a visual standpoint was Blaze.
>inb4 Blaze is in high-heels
Hypothetic Anon, she's a cat. She's supposed to stand on her toes, so that's not out of the ordinary for her species.

>>9971280
>>9971335
>>9975867
That comparison was made using the Core Framework, not the Retro Engine.
https://twitter.com/CinosLikesPizza/status/1666968293532475392

>>9975897
Well that's good news. Still a little worrisome because they shouldn't be using such awful placeholders at this stage.

>>9975943
>even the fucking FANGIRL can run at supersonic speed
Okay, enough is enough. Can we just all collectively agree to refer Sonic as Sneezy from now on? It's the only exclusive (if embarrassing) superpower he has left. You can still call the games the "Sonic" series for legacy reasons, but the main character is now Sneezy the Hedgehog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VtFldF75B0

>>9975770
Didn't the comics do that (with the CHAOS Emeralds)? Both Archie and Fleetway, if I'm not mistaken...

>>9975565
>>9975867
I think the Dropdash is in it. Its just that most gameplay for whatever reason hasn't showed it. I could have swore I did see it once though briefly. As for the physics it looks like its there to some extent just no where as good as the Genesis games.

>>9972448
This

>>9966314
Until we get the same changes to Saturn, there's no definitive edition

>>9966258
the ice cap zone music is seriously awful, since they're using the 1997 PC port music.

>>9973692
>Sonic 1: Beat without dying collecting all 1ups and emeralds
>Sonic 2: Beat without dying collecting all emeralds
>Sonic Chaos: Same as 2
>Mean Bean: Never played
>Drifft: Beat it
>Spinball: Beat it
>Triple Trouble: Beat it with all emeralds
>Drift 2: Beat it
>Skypatrol: Never beat it
>Tails Adventure: Beat it 100%
>Labyrinth: Beat it on the true ending
>Blast: Beat it with all emeralds

Those games should still be preserved, even if I think Triple Trouble belongs in the garbage bin.

>>9965884
Still don't believe Amy is worth it without her Advance 1 moveset. Origins!Amy seems to basically be Sonic the Easy Mode.

>>9977847
You use to be able to get the GG titles with the PC port of Sonic Adventure DX but the Steam version removed them (they're present in the files but the menu option has been removed).
You have to use the SADX Mod Manager installer to restore them

>>9977847
>>9977905
You know what the best ports of some of these games secretly are? The ones on the 3DS VC

>>9965884
Nah, I got modded superior versions of these Sonic games.

Personally, I love most of the prototype/S3&KC versions of the replaced songs. But they botched their inclusion just like in Sonic 3 & Knuckles Collections by fucking changing the instruments. The prototype versions were perfect, they just needed to be properly mixed. Fuck Sonic Team.

>>9978523
the prototype was incomplete but fans showed how nice it could be

i would be fine with this being the canon carnival night

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF35BCOOJyc

>>9978547
also proto launch base is more fitting as the mid zone in a game, and mj launch base was likely conceived as the ending zone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8zj8tbKvy0

>>9965938
Counterpoint: The fact that emulation exists is the reason to buy legal copies.

>>9967376
>I have an OLED Switch so I can't hack it without a modchip

Still hoping we get a sofmodding method for newer models soon to bring out all of it's true potential

>>9978849
Not him, but very true & I have a legal copie of these games on my Xbox 360 version of Sonic's Ultimate Sega Genesis Collection, as well as a digital copie of Sonic CD on my Xbox 360/One.

>>9966316
Genesis will still be best for the original and for rom hacks but I'll still get this new collection just as a new way to play, mainly for the tweaked graphics. Box is also nice looking and it has a few extras. DLC is a code in a box which is annoying, I might not even bother to install it. Also its so rare to see a real 2D game physically released these days, last was cuphead and turtles a few months ago.

>>9971563
the pre orders I've seen are much cheaper than a standard game

>>9966934
I like 2 on sms better but its even better if you remove the slowdown

>>9966556
even roms are ok because you are getting a real physical thing. A lot of nes games are just roms for $70 too. Metal slug on wii is just roms, still its a physical thing you can hold. I've been buying those old rom collections for ps2 and xbox and they are pretty cool.

>>9979374
softmod for new systems will not happen or be easily accessible until EoL probably. their security is on point. having to rely on chips and v1 fusee is honestly the best ending because at least those exploits are firmware agnostic and can't be patched without a hardware revision

Why not give the Neo Geo Sonic game as a bonus?

>>9975527
>Rosy the Rascal
Huh?

>>9979783
It counts as modern despite having levels inspired by the classic games I think

>>9966365
>Gamecube
Japanese versions with English text enabled if so, since the dub is shit for them (Tails and the toddler-tier dialogue in Heroes, 4kids voices and the infamous ridiculous swearing in Shadow) and there’s no option to change the audio language.

>>9979805
Shortlived attempt at a "X the Y" style nickname for Amy. It was repurposed by Archie as the name for her crazed counterpart.

>>9979783
It's in rights hell with SNK, which is why it was missing from Encyclo-speed-ia.

>>9980404
Played the Japanese versions of both Adventure games on my Wii not too long ago and really liked the dub. As for Heroes I really can't play it without the English voices even as an ESL, some of the lines like
>woaaaah my head spinnin
are just so iconic man

>>9965884
>butchered sonic 3 ost

No

>>9972087
>Forces outsold Mania
>we have no clue how much Forces sold
did you mean Frontiers

>>9980446
>"Look at all those Eggman's Robots!"

Reminder that Sonic Jam fixed the sound fx/bgm problem during Ice Cap Act 2, and that playing Sonic with the Saturn controller is God's intention.

>>9965972
This proves classic physics is a meme, Yasahara made Sonic good with level design

>>9966761
Left color right everything else

>>9972448
She got a Sonic's good side in the Mania Mega drive comic. In the OG timeline he fucking off so much turnnher into a schizo, but thanks to Gens Classic took the time to get more involved with his friends, I just because he seen how Modern Sonic ended up with so many.

It could also just be better to accept the time eater fucked with the series and permanently split the eras forever. A world where to lore of Modern Sonic never existed, no Shadow, no Dark Gaia, no Black Doom, no Solarsis, non of that autistic shit. It's very shaky this is going to stick when autistic adventurefags, including Ian Flynn, is against the concept of "other Sonic canons" , but it's the only way to make a proper fix to Sonic quality.

>>9974019
Bold of you to assume the time eater itself didn't eat out the modern methos entirely out of the Mania timeline. But even if Black Doom or whatever still exist, the idea lost to shit like that never really made any sense even for the modern timeline be because the Sonic we had to deal with now just keeps pulling DBZism and "breaking his limits" and thanks to " to power of friendship" Sonic will just find a way. The only reason the bad future of Sonic CD happened was thanks to his time traveling and leaving Eggman to fuck around scott free. As long as you write it right, the Mania timeline shouldn't end up as a dead end. I find it funny that was even a thought considering Modern's canonic timeline ends in distasters all the time, and they're permanent most of the time. 12 year olds dying to the government, Dark Gaia destorying the world just so light gaia can rebuid it, Solasis/Mephlesis/Ibilis, the End? Meanehile classic just ends in good, Sonic and co saves the day, plantlife and animals are happy, vivid colors everywhere, etc. It's just the nature classic has people want, good vibes and good times.

>>9974078
Name them? The fuck are you taking about?

>>9965884
Yes i'll buy it

>>9972963
The Amy thing on the newsletter is just some stupid costume (modern Amy costume on classic Amy). She's already playable on the base game.

They did that newsletter thing for Frontiers for some SA2 style shoe. Good thing the dlc was free on Steam and didn't require the newsletter like consoles did.

>>9981158
Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 1 8-bit, Sonic 2 8-bit, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Triple Trouble, Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic Spinball, Sonic Spinball 8-bit, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Blast, Sonic R

>>9983050
>Sonic 1
>Sonic 1 8-bit
>Sonic 3D Blast
These are not trash. I mean how in the fuck is Sonic 1 trash when it's literally the reason Genesis/Mega Drive sold as many units as it did?

>>9983054
Because 5/6 zones are horrendous

>>9983050
Mario fan?

>>9983056
I'll give you Marble and Labyrinth Zone at the most but the rest are fine. Scrap Brain gets a pass since it's the last level and also has a nice track

>>9983056
What's the good zone? The first one?

>>9983050
1 and CD are not perfect, but I wouldn't call them bad games. You also have to consider the time period, prior to Sonic 1 the best games on Genesis were either sports games or arcade ports like OutRun, Golden Axe, or Altered Beast. It didn't really have any true mascot platformer of its own. Sonic CD similarly kind of saved the SEGA CD and paved the way for other games like Popful Mail. The Game Gear games are very much in the same category. 3D Blast and R were pretty much just stopgap games to pad things out before Sonic Adventure since the Saturn basically had nothing else for Sonic games

>>9965884
>Still no Knuckles Chaotix
>Still no Sega Sonic the Hedgehog

>>9984432
They really should've just added Chaotix and the other Genesis games as a bonus. It would've taken no effort and would've been preferred over the Game Gear stuff

>>9984676
my conspiracy theory is that they're intentionally cultivating demand for Chaotix in particular by snubbing it repeatedly