/vr/ - Retro Games

The whole PAL/NTSC thing wasn't an issue by the Gamecube.
The PAL version defaulted in a 60Hz mode --i.e. no slowdown.

The reason they'd pick the European version (because PAL is a misnomer if there is no actual technical difference) is for the various bugfixes and extra languages. The Euro localisation was usually developed and released later.

The only thing a Euro Gamecube didn't have was progressive scan --a non issue if you're using an emulator and can force it anyway.

What does PAL matter post 1999? Everything was 60hz from Dreamcast onwards.

>>9911790
What's wrong with the PAL version if it supports 60 hz? What the fuck are those retards complaining about? I played Sunshine on the Switch and didn't notice any differences

>>9911809
>>9911810
Ah, thanks. Though it still sucks that the version you played as a kid isn't the version you're buying if you're American. Seems like that'd be a violation of some consumer trade laws.

>>9911824
wat
why does it matter?
it's the same fuckin game

>>9911809
>The PAL version defaulted in a 60Hz mode --i.e. no slowdown.
This is not true, most games you chose 50hz/60hz on starting up the game. If there was no hz selection screen you can assume the game was running at 50hz. Metroid Prime 2 is one of the few exceptions and was clearly marked on the box as being 60hz only

Why do euros and some other countries used 50hz?

>>9911832
From a legal standpoint because it's not explicitly stated that it's the PAL version. At least with modern games you KNOW the game is patched. Not that that makes it any better but it can be argued you know what you're walking into if you support modern slop. But a re-release masquerading as an older game? If there is minutiae whatsoever that's been overlooked by the dozen or so people who care about documenting regional revisions, then that's finessing the customer. It's like an old Osamu Tezuka manga where a plague turns people into dogs but they can't figure out if it's rooted in virology, genes or mythology. The doctors start arguing that in medicine you can never rule out the smallest iota of variable.

What if I'm an avid Sunshine fanboy who bought the game because I felt like Mario floated for a millisecond longer in the NTSC version, or the text scrolls slightly faster and thus lets me get better speedruns? I now no longer know if it's because of the game's performance under emulation or if it's because the copy solicited to me was not in fact the NTSC version.

>>9911869
It matched their electrical grids. Also it's not like anybody was married to 50 or 60 hz in those days, average consumers wouldn't get TVs for years after these standards were established.

>>9911881
What a retarded post.

>>9911897
t. NOA legal defense team intern

>>9911869

Ask the makers of the power grid.
In Europe they chose 230V 50Hz while in the US for the largest part it is 120V 60Hz.
The frequency of the power lines was what the TVs were tuned to and correspondingly also consoles and games.

>>9911824
Lol, wut?

>>9911810
PS2 was notoriously bad in PAL60 support in games. More than two thirds of its library was 50hz only.

>>9911869
Third world living standards

>>9911912
US is actually 240V, there's just a transformer for each house that splits it in half for two areas of the house. Large appliances are still 240V.
Don't make me link the technology connections video.

>>9911790
Why does this even matter on 6th gen games?

>>9912064
Right, so you think transform 50hz to 60hz before it reaches the house?

Epitome of fud. Kill yourself.

>>9911869
They have different electrical and broadcasting standards than US and other NTSC regions. People seem to have forgotten how different other parts of the world are and that they have different needs compared to our own, so back then it wasn't wrong or incorrect to abide by those standards.

>>9911790
You can choose 60hz when you start the game.

>>9912064
If you call the US a 240V country, then Europe is actually running 400V.

>>9911790
We already had this thread several times.
They used the PAL version but it's running in PAL60 mode, meaning it has all the bug fixes of the PAL release and the refresh rate of the NTSC release, along with emulation enhancements like progressive scan (not a feature for PAL Gamecubes running PAL60) and widescreen.
This is different from Playstation Classic where the PAL games only used PAL50 on top of the Playstation Classic being too underpowered to even manage that without emulation slowdowns.

>>9912230
It’s not worth talking to Americans on this subject anon

hey pal, PAL is no pal of mine

>>9912565
It was superior for DVDs and television

>>9911790
This guy is banned from Twitter.

the 3D All Stars version plays great and digital triggers unironically make things like the little boats way the fuck easier to control

>>9911790
Why is there so much spam about mario? the whole franchise barely deserves a thread let alone long continual spam about each entry fucking the catalog. It was never good or original..

>>9913023
mario games are fun

>>9911809
No one on this board even realises huge numbers of games where designed and written to be run on pal systems. Its just retard central on that. Not many people realise that 'pal'' versions also were pal-60 aware by the mid 90s

>>9913026
For the first decade they were unoriginal side scolling platformers. The whole catalog is plastered in zelda and mario spam when they really were not that much loved throught out the 90s and 00s. is the idea to stop people talking about retro games they love by spamming this stale mario and zelda crap ' Did you know zelda had colors' or 'did you know mario wore dungarees' crap?

>>9913031
mario is just an important character. he was loved during the 90s and 00s. my parents loved mario and introduced me to the games.

>>9911869
basically they understood that euros think slower and have aversion to fun in general. small countries have tiny genetic pools too. so they the made the games slower for them as an act of mercy

>>9911881
>From a legal standpoint because it's not explicitly stated that it's the PAL version.
It wasn't explicitly stated to be the NTSC version as well.
>But a re-release masquerading as an older game? If there is minutiae whatsoever that's been overlooked by the dozen or so people who care about documenting regional revisions, then that's finessing the customer.
I have no idea what you are even talking about. People who document stuff will document anything that's off (which they did).
>What if I'm an avid Sunshine fanboy who bought the game because I felt like Mario floated for a millisecond longer in the NTSC version, or the text scrolls slightly faster and thus lets me get better speedruns? I now no longer know if it's because of the game's performance under emulation or if it's because the copy solicited to me was not in fact the NTSC version.
If this were to happen (and be significant enough), it'd become its own category.
And if it didn't? Well, people can change to playing it on the Switch as well. It's not exclusive to you.

What was the issue again? Except for your retardation, that is.

>>9913218
am €, can confirm

>>9913027
> PAL60 by the mid 90s

You're a few years short though. It only started with the Dreamcast and even then it took years for PS2 games to catch up and a lot of releases even late ones are 50hz only. I think Gamecube games are fine for the most part however.

>>9913031
>For the first decade they were unoriginal side scolling platformers.

Other people would call you a zoomer for that one, and you could be that. But I think you're just a shitposting troll. Here's your (You).

>>9911881
This is the same kind of anon that will tell you that a CRT display in 2023 is absolutely necessary to get that 1/500th of a second faster response time so they can play Earthbound better.

>>9913027
>>No one on this board even realises huge numbers of games where designed and written to be run on pal systems.
There are like a dozen of these, and in all cases, the superior framerate of the US release trumps the slight resolution bump of PAL. Hell, half of the PAL versions were letterboxed anyway, so you didn't even get to enjoy 576 lines.

>>9911809
sunshine is only 60fps on dolphin

>>9913031
this is accurate
>>9913365
seething nintentoddler.

this thread is exactly how twitter screencap threads always go

>>9911790
I believe it. Nintendo can't do anything right anymore

Thank God for China

I live in the US, but damn, am I glad that this whole PAL/NTSC nonsense is no longer a thing once HD came around. Honestly, 1080i should not have even been a thing, should just have gone progressive only after 480, 720p looks far better than 1080i. Not that 1080i is much of a thing anymore either though by now.

>>9911824
>Ah, thanks. Though it still sucks that the version you played as a kid isn't the version you're buying if you're American.

>"Use the _BUTTON_ to shoot water from my tank"

I mean, PAL or NTSC it would have been modified anyway for the collection

>>9911861
>Metroid Prime 2 is one of the few exceptions and was clearly marked on the box as being 60hz only

Wait, what? Wouldn't that have made it unplayable on many older PAL TVs then? I know it was far more common for PAL TVs to have NTSC support than vice-versa but I would assume a lot of them, especially older ones, would only support 50hz.

>>9911881
>At least with modern games you KNOW the game is patched. Not that that makes it any better but it can be argued you know what you're walking into if you support modern slop. But a re-release masquerading as an older game? If there is minutiae whatsoever that's been overlooked by the dozen or so people who care about documenting regional revisions, then that's finessing the customer.

You are a fucking idiot. Games as far back as the second gen of consoles had updated releases and never mentioned anything about it. Patches are not a new thing, the only difference is that back then if a game had a horrible bug you were stuck with it forever, and it would either never get patched, or later get patched on newer versions of the cart/disk with zero indicator whatsoever. Advertising the game version was just simply not a thing and very rare to see until consoles connecting to the internet and having large amounts of internal storage became commonplace.

>>9913713
0,001 social credit added to your account

>>9913715
>Wait, what? Wouldn't that have made it unplayable on many older PAL TVs then?
Yes, that's why it's marked on the box as 60hz only. But by that point it would be very unlikely for someone to be playing on a 50hz only TV

Remember how at launch Sunshine in the anniversary collection had a bug in it's emulation where the debug cubes in some of the secret levels which are supposed to be invisible were visible? The very same bug that used to happen in Dolphin but was fixed long ago?

I completed the game 100% and didn’t notice any problems. Who cares?

>>9912051
Ps2 isn't pal 60hz it outputs ntsc

>>9911869
Uk adopted pal because of the better colours, tv producers over here pushed for it, I don't think it has anything to do with the power grid lmao

>>9913728
I think the mini consoles were using roms pulled from websites too. Turn about is fair play i guess. Funny to think about the normies basically buying illegal roms from a first party tho.

>>9913738
>I don't think it has anything to do with the power grid lmao

The 50Hz is without a doubt due to the power grid. There are a lot of older analog devices designed for 60hz regions that will run slower if you plugged them into a plug that operates at 50hz even if you convert the voltage, and vice-versa for devices that are designed for 50hz and get plugged into a 60hz outlet. You would need to also convert 50/60hz for them to operate properly. PAL has more differences than jut simply being 50hz vs 60hz, but it was clearly designed to work with the UK power grid also operating at 50hz. PAL was developed after NTSC, it was developed with the 50hz power grid in mind, it wasn't "Hey, we can do better than NTSC! Let's have better color and resolution, even if it means a roughly 16-17% lower refresh rate than NTSC!". It was "OK, we need to make our video standard operate with our 50Hz power grid, we have room to make these other changes while we're working on it"

Older devices were utterly dependent on the frequency of the AC power coming into them and designed all around it.

>>9913762
Wasn't this dis-proven? If you dump a ROM properly it's CRC should match a downloaded copy anyway unless it's been altered in some way. And the IIRC it was revealed that they licensed the iNES header format from one of the original creators of it that was apparently the "incriminating" part. IIRC a completely raw NES ROM dump would not have any headers and be at least two files (CHR and PRG ROMs).

But since it would both be a hassle to have multiple files per game AND that older games like this stored zero information about themselves that emulators would need to function (such as which mapper if any they used, this is something that was invisible to the NES hardware but very very necessary for an emulated copy to function) Marat Fayzullin who made an early NES emulator called iNES also created a header format that would list all of this necessary information that is not on the ROM chips of the cart. Hence why people call it the iNES header, it became a header format for the file format that basically combines said header and the dumps of the different ROM chips all into one file.

Since iNES is a standard header format, any decent NES dumper which uses this header format should produce a dump of an NES game that is 100% a match with the same CRC. A tell-tale sign would be if the header contained any information about the dumper used and/or any additional information like a warez/dumper scene name or something. From my understanding, no such information is in either the modern NES romsets nor in the Virtual Console ROMs, so it just makes sense that it would match. People originally speculated this because they assumed Nintendo would develop their own header or have none and use some other manual/proprietary method, but it was revealed that Nintendo had indeed licensed the iNES header from Marat Fayzullin for their VC.

(Also, I am pretty sure the Gigaleak reconfirmed this since it proved Nintendo still had archival dumps of their stuff from ages ago)

>>9911818
IT'S NOT FREEDOM APPROVED

>>9912064
no, it's a -120V and a +120V phase

>>9911810
It's only beginning with 7th gen that the majority of PAL releases supported 60hz. Even Halo had to be PAL optimised, and the PAL programmer even apologised years later for oversights like reeeeaaally long grenade countdowns

>>9912112
That's a frequency, not a voltage.
>>9912183
Do any of your household appliances run on 400V?
>>9914039
Yes, the 120V is split phase. 240V with a center tap. Same thing.

Alright, you people made me link the technology connections video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4

>>9914081
>Do any of your household appliances run on 400V?
Electric stoves in the Soviet Union ran on 380V three-phase power.

>>9913715
>Wait, what? Wouldn't that have made it unplayable on many older PAL TVs then?
Part of the reason it was highly recommended to use RGB SCART on PAL gamecubes (and dreamcasts) was because many 50hz TVs were perfectly capable of 60Hz even if the manufacturer never intended it. The TV doesn't "run" at 50Hz after all, it synchronises to the signal on the cable and in the analog world there's usually plenty of play in the range it will accept. Chances are even your TV from the 70s would take a 60Hz signal, you just might have to fuck with the hold knobs to make it an acceptable size and stability.
But the color would be fucked. PAL in a 60Hz carrier was definitely out of spec for fixed decoders, but RGB sidestepped the issue.

>>9911912
>>9911869
The reason for 50Hz was to reduce wear on the turbines that generated the power. Someone realised that they could run them slower and this would generate less waste heat and therefore wear down the mechanical parts less and at the time the frequency of the grid didn't matter since no one had built anything requiring anything specific. Hz was completely irrelevant to the end users other than maybe more noticeable flicker on lamps.
TVs were synchronised to the 50Hz power to avoid interference and then the rest is history. Japan has a split 50/60Hz grid and given their importance in the 80s/90s game market it could easily have become 50fps as the standard with USA complaining that games run too fast and aren't designed for their TVs.

>>9914197
>But the color would be fucked. PAL in a 60Hz carrier was definitely out of spec for fixed decoders
I am pretty sure the color decoder has nothing whatsoever to do with the vertical deflection. It only cares about lines.

>>9913670
I don't have any allegiance to Nintendo, Sega or anyone else.

It's just SMB1 set the bar and everyone followed. That's indisputable fact. Calling the early Mario games generic is like calling Citizen Kane generic because everyone copied it's techniques afterwards.

All the best selling platformers have had Mario's jump arc relative to screen height.

>>9911810
you are incorrect.

Everything was mostly 60hz post the first HD consoles, so around 2006-7
also many PAL WII games run at 50hz (while others run ok at 60hz PAL)

the more you know.......

>>9916508
>also many PAL WII games run at 50hz
The only one I know of is Madworld, are there others?

>>9913031
Based and spitting facts.

>>9911869
>>9911891
Standard established by Schneider Electric in Germany.
When Germany invaded Europe, it became the European standard (as well as the time zone in France and Spain).

Nikola Tesla wanted 220v 60hz. Schneider chose 50hz by metric logic.

>>9916663
Mario Party 8 was quite infamous in Europe for being 50hz only

>>9911809
>PAL is a misnomer if there is no actual technical difference
PAL gamecube games dont have progressive scan support