/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9873928
Genesis/MD has better devs tools that are more accessible online. Is there is a SNES equivalent to the SGDK?

>>9873928
Nowadays the genesis definetly has more documentation & dev tools, so it wins in that aspect at least.

>>9873968
there was an anon saying in the homebrew board that even in its heyday the snes was a bitch to program on. Does anyone know if there are links to snes era dev interviews?

>>9873965
It’s called pvsneslib

>>9873928
There was never debate. Only schizo Aussie spamming.

SNES fanboys make romhacks
Genesis fanboys make tech demos.

The SNES has segmented memory like a DOS PC and the graphics hardware is generally more complicated and has more features.

>>9874081
Genesis tools are honestly incredible, but I feel like not much has been done with them. My favorite from both libraries is still the romhacks. Right now I'm playing for the 2023 update of NHL 94 for the Genesis (if any /sp/iggers are interested it's good)

>>9873973
The Genesis is a very standard architecture of it's day. The 68000 and Z80 were among the most common processors. Consider that a lot of arcade architectures from Capcom, SNK, and Sega itself were based on it.

>>9874114
You're not impressed with the homebrew?

>>9873928
> Is the snes really an inferior console to develop for?
No. It is overloaded with graphical features so autistic retards can't figure out how to program it properly. Furthermore, its superior color palette and sample based audio is modern to the point where people don't find it nostalgically charming in the way that inferior color palettes and yamaha chiptunes invoke those feelings. It's not shitty enough to be interesting.
> I'm personally looking for more info
Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ibhDU2SAI&list=PLHQ0utQyFw5KCcj1ljIhExH_lvGwfn6GV [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrn0QavLMyo&list=PLHQ0utQyFw5JD2wWda50J8XuzQ2cFr8RX [Embed]
https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Main_Page

>>9874192
Thanks anon, I'll check this out and keep the discussion going I find homebrew fascinating.

>>9874081
Here 65c816 tech demo: https://youtu.be/ptunPRaNMZI

>>9874009
Lol
>>9873968
It wins in every department.

>>9874205
> (Genesis) wins in every department.
if you don't count stupid metrics like audio or graphical capabilities, yeah, it sure does.
Lets play a fun game: Which one is the shitty Genesis version? I'll be you can tell from the screenshot alone: The awful clashing color palette, the lack of transparencies, that stupid as fuck status bar on the right side of the screen taking up half your TV instead of the actual game. Disgusting.
Oh but it gets better! If you were actually playing the game, you would sure know which system you were on. The jarring fart sound synth, the audio samples that have clearly gone through a rock tumbler, what a sorry ass excuse for a system. I can't even believe Sega released this half baked fuckin prototype. Pathetic.

>>9874126
Not particularly no, are there any I should be aware of that are genuinely as good as the stuff originally released? I know xeno crisis is talked about a lot, but I don’t see much else discussed on here

>>9874256
Was this just a lazy port? The genesis having a limited palette could be a good thing based on games like beyond oasis. What do you guys think about shadowrun? That would be a fun debate on which version is better

>>9874274
There's this youtuber called pigsy who makes great content about genesis dev, I'm on my phone so itsa pain to copy paste, but look up genesis homebrew on YouTube and a ton of neat looking games come up

>>9874286
https://youtu.be/Q7NamP4leuM

The resulation is strong with this one.

>>9873928
>Is the snes really an inferior console to develop for?
Yes.
>2.68 mhz 8-bit data bus CPU with only 3 registers
>16 kbs RAM for sprites
>max 256x224 resolution, 25% less than the Mega Drive
>slower, more bottlenecked DMA
>muffled 32 khz audio on a separate sub processor with only 64 kbs RAM for samples
None of these constraints are enjoyable to work against in any way, and they are issues exclusive to the SNES, whereas the Mega Drive, PC Engine, and even Amiga offer a far more streamlined 16-bit programming experience, and, as a result, contemporary developers hated working on the SNES, most homebrew developers have the sense and reason to not even touch the flawed and shoddy hardware, and the very few that do attempt to make SNES games, find themselves with an insurmountably difficult task that prevents them from ever releasing anything of any appreciable scope or polish. It was not a good console to work for back then, and it is still not a good console to work for now.

>>9874287
Hey thanks man, watching it now

>>9874328
Rent free

>>9873968
>Nowadays the genesis definetly has more documentation & dev tools,

You mean 'always'? It really seems like there was so little to actually document for the Genesis/ Mega Drive, back in the day, there were groups like EA who could reverse engineer the hardware, and most programmers that had backgrounds with the 68000 could apparent pick up the hardware with little effort. The SNES doesn't seem like it is that much more complex. But most of its graphical features seemed to be locked behind the GPU.

>>9874340
> most programmers that had backgrounds with the 68000 could apparent pick up the hardware with little effort.
Right, the 68000 was well liked and used in a bunch of systems. The 65c816? It's a beefed up 6502 but it came out kind of malformed and awkward to use. It certainly has its merits though.
> But most of its graphical features seemed to be locked behind the GPU.
Yes, most people couldn't / can't make good sense of this compared to other systems, and i can see why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcoU6-9_fDM
However, recent emulators like Mesen-S / Mesen 2 with it's incredible debugging toolset, and sites like the recently formed SNESdev wiki from the NESdev folks, i firmly believe will change the face of SNES homebrew in the coming months / years, and once the tools and knowledge catches up (and it finally is) we will start to see some absolutely incredible work.

>>9874376
Only semi related but I’m so glad the 16 bit scene keeps chugging along, as I’ve gotten older I genuinely feel exhausted when I open up these giant ass CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT new games, I still have a ton of fun with 16 and even 32bit and feel like I can actually cut loose with it after work

>>9874376
>The 65c816? It's a beefed up 6502 but it came out kind of malformed and awkward to use. It certainly has its merits though.

The 68000 was one of the most common 16bit CPU's out there back in the day. It's in the Amiga, Atari ST, Macintosh, X68000 in Japan, just about every single 16bit arcade cabinet had one. The 65c816 was used in a lot less hardware. But its' most notable use was in the Apple IIGS (Great Sixteen), which is a 16bit version of the original Apple II line. 65c816 is backwards compatible with the 6502 in the Apple II. Nintendo apparently used the Apple IIGS as a dev kit for the SNES, for at least the earliest games.

>>9874417
Me too dude. I'm especially interested in sega saturn/DC homebrew because I love the system design and really want to see them reach their potential

>>9874442
Yeah, I went down the atomiswave ports rabbit hole recently. Is saturn homebrew even a thing? I know there’s like snes ports and translations which I follow closely, but genuine homebrew outside of porting seems like a monumental task for the Saturn in particular.

>>9874442
Also damn I’d love a Daytona 2 port to DC, it’s one of the few games I’m really hurting for and having to use a model emulator for it isn’t impossible but definitely not as easy and booting up something like flycast

>>9874458
People are just now starting to mess around with saturn stuff. There's even a whole podcast dedicated to it called Shiro show. I wasn't born when saturn was a thing but the console design is so sexy and the music from that era of game is such a vibe

>>9874256
Cherry picking at its finest. Why don't you compare Toy Story or EWJ on both consoles? Even when both games are drastically different like Contra and Alladin the mega drive comes out on top. And Sonic 3 and Comic Zone look/sound far nicer than Super Mario World or any other snes game you could list proving having more colours means bugger all if the system is a piece of junk.

>>9874464
Wow a Saturn dedicated podcast lmao the mad lads, i can’t imagine the audience for that is huge but good for them, definitely a few have the balding gamer soft face but I’ll give it a listen regardless just for the novelty, seems like something worth encouraging

>>9874478
The numbers aren't huge but the show is cozy

>>9874203
Lets look at a mega drive indie game for comparison.

Not sure but the variety with game genres on genesis is more impressive to me. Snes feels like it's only scrollers or top down scrollers

>>9874491
I wish there was a snes dev podcast where they broke down how they made games for it. I think it would be a big hit

>>9874473
>Toy Story or EWJ

Isn't this cherry picking? maybe less for Toy Story. But Earthworm Jim, while multi-platform, was made primarily by devs that knew the Genesis/ MD hardware better than the SNES. Most of Shiny came from Virgin Interactive. Dave Perry was best known for his Genesis/ Mega Drive coding skills. Jon Burton (founder of Travellers Tales) started as an Amiga tech demo / homebrew coder, and took his bag of tricks to the Mega Drive/ Genesis. Toy Story is a technical showcase on the Genesis.

>>9874081
This. There's some really amazing SNES romhacks. Also there's a ton of fixes that make games run better or just improve QOL.
I personally prefer that approach. I like the familiarity of adding to a game I love rather than making a whole new game that I don't give a shit about.
Micro Mages for NES was cool though, that's the best new/old game I've played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g
Show me something like this on an SNES

>>9874591
Wow genesis homebrew is way ahead of everything else right now, maybe one day snes will catch up, but right now genesis does what nintendont

>>9874203
And it's really not that impressive when you look at it beyond the "oh look I move sprites around fast" metric. There's pretty much no sense of game design going on and the enemies are all brain dead. There's never more than 1 or 2 different enemies on screen at a given moment and they're all doing the exact same thing, a generic walk animation from one side of the screen to the other. Bosses are equally brain dead and just move back and forth firing the same bullet patterns with no sense of AI. On top of it you can see significant sprite drop out and flicker when there's barely anything going on. It's very obvious that it's trying to work around the VRAM and sprite size limitations of the SNES while trying to hide it with a lot of explosions and fast scrolling.

Now compare that to the games it's trying to emulate like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, etc. Those games have multiple different enemy types on screen at any given time all doing different things. Some may be doing a shooting animation, others jumping, others climing, others walking, others falling, standing, etc. They react to the player, move in different directions, etc. On top of that you have the players doing different things, firing different bullets all over the screen with additional details and more animated explosions while still having less sprite pixel drop out.

Sure the SNES demo is kind of neat, but it's just that. There's a reason it's been in development for over a decade and still hasn't progressed very much. The guy is focusing so much on trying to work around the SNES's limitations and try and win some console war argument that he's completely lost focus on doing the most important thing about homebrew game development, making an actual game.

>>9874328
>contemporary developers hated working on the SNES
Like who? Over a thousand games came out for the thing, so it can't be that difficult.

>>9874647
It was the industry leader though, they kinda had to find a way to make it work

>>9874647
Treasure.
They left Konami in part because they didn't want to be bound to the SNES processor for their action games, ironically spurring Konami to develop action games for the Mega Drive to compete.

>>9874647
>Over a thousand games came out for the thing, so it can't be that difficult
That was when it was the current system and had the full backing of Nintendo behind it and an install base to justify developing for it. These games were made with entire teams with it being their full time job. So dealing with the issues was far more manageable in that scenario than it is for a single hobbyist doing it in their free time.

It's not that it's impossible to make a game for the SNES. It's that the limitations it has are really silly and frustrating that most homebrew devs eventually come to the conclusion that working on other systems would be a better use of their time. On those systems they don't have to worry about their game design being impacted by silly limitations like how many sprite sizes you can use at a time or only being able to use 1/4 of your available VRAM for sprites.

The games that were made back then you can tell were very much built around those kinds of limitations. And many devs that try doing things on the SNES want to try and beat those released games and prove it can do more just like the other systems. But they quickly realize that a lot of those games actually are the limit in a lot of cases.

>>9874256
You do realize that the play area for both versions is the same size and resolution right? The SNES version runs in 256x224 resolution while the Genesis version opts for 320x224 resolution. On the Genesis running in that resolution generally is the better option because the VDP gets clocked higher so you get more sprites per screen, more sprites per scanline, etc. So it makes sense to want to use that mode. But instead of redoing the art to use that higher resolution or increasing the visible area they instead opted to use the additional horizontal space for the HUD and map info allowing the player to see more in the play area without having the HUD clutter it.

>>9874489
>Watermelon
They said plan new project N for game Super NES

>>9874632
>he's completely lost focus on doing the most important thing about homebrew game development
There many important things besides development.

>>9874192
>No. It is overloaded with graphical features so autistic retards can't figure out how to program it properly
That's not really the main issues with it. Go ask SNES devs and most will tell you that they'd trade those fancy graphical features for a PPU that handled sprites more like how it's competitors did in a heartbeat.

Trying to do something like a decent Beat'em up with a lot of large and unique enemies on screen at a given time quickly becomes an exercise in frustration on the SNES simply due to how bad it's sprite system is.

>>9874682
Like learning proper English.

>Like learning proper English.

>>9874692
I'm not the one posting completely broken sentences missing entire verbs.

Would anyone be interested in starting a genesis homebrew discord? I'd do it but I'm too much of a novice to get the ball rolling and wouldn't know where to start

>>9874708
They're already is one, you can find the invite link on this github:
https://github.com/Stephane-D/SGDK

>>9874708
There already is one, you can find it on this github page:
https://github.com/Stephane-D/SGDK

>>9874709
Yeah but do they approve of saucy talk? I really appreciate 4chan because people know how to bust chops

>>9874683
yes the imaginary SNES devs that you talk to in your head hate the system they code for and are infinitely frustrated with the dual size sprite system. we know.
you've beat this dead horse down to a skeleton and yet you're still punching a pile of polverized bone fragments.
and you are still wrong. 32 8x8 sprites per scanline is enough to fill an entire row with sprites, and is more than enough. 512 unique 8x8 tiles to choose from is plenty. the fixed dual sprite system is a minor annoyance at best.
and yet here you are, with the same response. again.
if you're such a coding genius, where are the projects you've done? why don't you do something useful with your life?

>>9874660
>On those systems they don't have to worry about their game design being impacted by silly limitations like how many sprite sizes you can use at a time or only being able to use 1/4 of your available VRAM for sprites.
Indeed, or having to also worry about cramming the game logic for a proper 16-bit game into a CPU that is wholly ONE THIRD the speed compared to it's competitors, or which can only address 8 kbs of it's RAM globally, or...

>>9874473
>Sonic 3 and Comic Zone
Cool kick. But these games later life.

>>9874718
>32 8x8 sprites per scanline is enough to fill an entire row with sprites
Sure, but that's not the metric you end up running into as much.
>512 unique 8x8 tiles to choose from is plenty.
That's assuming you have no wasted tiles. Which depending on the sprite sizes being used, that can happen very easily. Let's say you have an object that's 24x32 pixels. The options we have to draw this on SNES would be either as 1 32x32 sprite, 2 16x16 sprites and 4 8x8 sprites, or 12 8x8 sprites. The first would be the best for not wasting space in OAM, but comes at the cost of being wasteful in VRAM because you'll have end up with 4 empty tiles. The last 2 will be better with VRAM usage, but you end up wasting 6-12 sprite entries in OAM.

Meanwhile on the Genesis you don't have to worry about this because you can just draw one 24x32 sprite and not have to worry about having wasted space in VRAM for empty tiles or wasting sprites in your sprite table.
>the fixed dual sprite system is a minor annoyance at best.
Going further off the example above, of the 4 sizes you have to choose from, you're most likely going to have waste. If you pick 8x8 and 16x16 you'll most likely be better with VRAM management but end up wasting a lot of sprites to draw objects. If you pick 32x32 and 64x64 you're going to have a lot of waste for any sprites smaller than 32x32. If you pick a small size and a large size, you're again going to end up wasting space in both VRAM and sprite usage trying to piece things together.

This is an issue you see a lot of beat'em ups on the system struggle with, and it's why you rarely if ever see them approach the amount of enemies on screen in a game like Streets of Rage. Some will go with 16x16 and 8x8 to try and have the best usage of VRAM they can, but as a result can't draw as many enemies because they run out of OAM entries. Others try using larger sprites but they can't have as much animation or unique enemies because they run out of VRAM.

>>9874660
ask why there's no modern Apple II homebrew. yes back then you could make a buck from it but there's no reason to do it now.

>>9874508
>Earthworm Jim, while multi-platform, was made primarily by devs that knew the Genesis/ MD hardware better than the SNES.

Check out this SNES review from 1994. Even back then they ranked the SNES game lower than the Genesis game and made comments on how Dave Perry knew the Genesis hardware better.

>>9874761
>ask why there's no modern Apple II homebrew. yes back then you could make a buck from it but there's no reason to do it now.

There's still Apple II home brew games being made. Maybe the community is not as active as the C64 community. But the 8bit Apple II PC's still have a dedicated following, considering it was the OG Apple PC. When I think back... the Apple II was probably the first computer I have ever used. I was born in 1981.

https://ramokromok.com/homebrew/apple-ii/

>>9874756
>a game like Streets of Rage
Good demo: https://youtu.be/qL5lb9_U2KQ

>>9874756
>et's say you have an object that's 24x32 pixels. The options we have to draw this on SNES would be either as 1 32x32 sprite, 2 16x16 sprites and 4 8x8 sprites, or 12 8x8 sprites
you can also draw such an object with 4 16x16s
the vast majority of the time the 16x16/8x8 oam option is the best as the wasted vram space with other options is usually more of an issue than the extra oam to be allocated to larger entities

>>9874824
>only 3 simultaneous enemies
The SNES bottlenecked hardware strikes again, imagine how boring this game will be with only 3 enemies, not to mention braindead AI's and slowdowns galore, no thank you, I will gladly stick to the Mega Drive version.

>be me
>big fat retard who loves vidya
>sit around, scratch my nuts and sniff my fingers while watching autists have a sissy slap fight over who's console is more betterer so hard it turns into a multi-thread spergnado
>giggle at the spectacle and play whatever neat games they shit out

>>9873928
I have no idea but I'm saving this image

>>9874853
I still find it hilarious this was in an actual game

>>9873928
There's an anon making a genesis fps engine right now. No one is doing that for snes afaik.
That's as far as my knowledge on the subject goes.

>>9874853
https://desuarchive.org/_/search/image/Hi88oRZcTvMjqPEM-Y1tiw/

>>9874824
All down for this port.

>>9874426
The IIGS is my favorite Apple product

>>9874884
Holy shit, all I see are some of the most based posts on /vr/.

>>9874917
The funniest story about the IIGS is that Apple themselves didn't want it more powerful than the Macintosh, so they underclocked the CPU LOL
No wonder the 65c816 gets a bad wrap...

now try doing Dragon Quest VI or Chrono Trigger on Mega Drive. not happening.

>>9874376
used to be much different. way less homebrew stuff was made for the megadrive than snes.

>>9873973
snes was easy to program for if you weren't a cripple. hardest part (like genesis) was the audio driver for SPC.

>>9874328
> streamlined 16-bit programming experience
> PC engine
> the amiga, that had 16/32bit CPU
it's amazing how little you dunning kruger retards of this board know about anything. it's absolutely astounding at times.

>>9874953
it's never gotten a bad wrap. where do you schizos get your information from? great to see this board is still a disaster.

>>9874824
Question, have you seen what Streets of Rage 2 actually does in the later levels?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9J_O3KUw-A&t=2740s

And that's not even the hardest difficulty. Streets of Rage goes even further and just says "Fuck it who cares if it's starting to flicker":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooHzxmEENeo

>>9874839
>you can also draw such an object with 4 16x16s
True, but you'll again have wasted empty tiles in VRAM.

>>9875039
>True, but you'll again have wasted empty tiles in VRAM.
you will not, you simply overlap the sprite tiles such that you get two stacked 8x8s out of a single 16x16 for one oam slot. you can organize the graphics in vram the same way as required by the 24x32 object in the genesis

>>9874984
> PC engine
Yes, despite the PC Engine's pedantically 8-bit CPU architecture, it's clock speed is so fast that it is easily capable of keeping up with other performant 16-bit hardwares based on the 68000. This is evidenced in many games that were released for it, putting far more action on the screen with NO SLOWDOWNS than the SNES could ever come even remotely close for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3bOjMekDCY
>But, but that's a CD game!
Unlike the Mega CD, the PC Engine CD does not add any additional hardwares, merely providing a CD player, and extra RAM to accommodate loading from CD's. PC Engine CD games would work flawlessly on a large enough HU-CARD cartridge, and can thus, for all intents and purposes, be considered "stock" for comparison purposes.
> the amiga, that had 16/32bit CPU
The Amiga had the exact same CPU as the Mega Drive, X68000, Neo Geo, and many arcade boards, clocked 3 TIMES faster than the SNES like all it's other competitors, this is why it is easily able to perform 3D games on stock hardware, which the SNES would need a cheating and expensive FX expansion chip to perform.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmcS-Br95r4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhW3y62sFF0
In fact, the stock Amiga, wholly 5 YEARS older than the SNES, actually performs better than the SNES, even WITH it's chips. ;)
>dunning kruger retards
Perhaps speak for yourself next time.
>>9874884
Not all of those posts are mine, but many are. Yes, I have been talking about the deficiencies of the SNES for a long time, and yes, I do reuse my images on occasion. And? Do you have any real retort?

>>9874984
>>9874951
t.

>>9875115
>Hardware: Amiga 1200 (TF1260, 128MB Fast-RAM)
300+ dollars of expansion hardware to play a game less impressive than Wolfenstein 3D.

>>9875118
Works on stock Amiga 500, and still performs far better than SNES Doom, despite SNES Doom needing a 21 mhz FX cheater chip. How fucking pathetic was Nintendo hardware?

>>9875124
SNES Doom is a much more complex game than that bog standard raycaster it took decades to make for the Amiga.

Really, this arguement was settled in 1991. The SNES never did catch up, and indeed, it could not catch up, thanks it's shoddy and poor hardware.

>>9875124
>despite SNES Doom needing a 21 mhz FX cheater chip
>do add on chip in mind
Pathetic post from you.

>>9875130
SNES Doom does not even run on Doom Engine, but rather, on a specialised and seriously cut back version with no infighting, no different monster facing directions, no AI's, and on a 21 mhz FX chip, and it STILL ran at merely 5 FPS, the Dread Engine on Amiga easily achieves feature parity with the SNES Doom engine, and, on a 14 mhz Amiga 1200, or even on a 7 mhz Amiga 500, runs TWICE AS FAST.

>>9875075
Would you mind showing this as it doesn't really seem to make sense. The Genesis and SNES store sprites in VRAM in different ways so if you tried to store the tiles the same way as you would a 24x32 sprite on Genesis I'd imagine things wouldn't look right.

On the Genesis tile order for sprites is done in columns, while on SNES if I remember correctly it's based on rows with some odd interleaving thrown into the mix. So for a 24x32 sprite on the Genesis your first 4 tiles would be for coordinates (0,0), (0,8), (0,16), (0,24). On SNES if we're using 16x16 sprites the tiles would be (0,0), (8,0), [insert 14 more tiles here for other sprites], (0,8), (8,8), [insert 14 more tiles here for other sprites].

So wouldn't storing the tiles the same way as you would on the Genesis screw up the order as you'd be trying to draw a vertical column of tiles as a horizontal row? Secondly wouldn't your 2 16x16 sprites that are making up the remaining 8x32 column of tiles have to have empty tiles to maintain the correct tile order for the 16x16 sprite? If you tried putting a tile in that empty space wouldn't it end up being drawn in the area where we actually don't want something being drawn because it's a 24x32 object?

>>9874871
Me, love swapping between the two rapidly on emulation station while we have our weekly genesis snes argument. Tomorrow someone’s going to post sound chip comparisons again.

>>9875142
>the Dread Engine on Amiga easily achieves feature parity with the SNES Doom engine
It's just a Wolfenstein styled raycaster engine. The SNES can run a raycast engine without chips and it does so just as poorly as the Amiga does without enhancement.

>>9875148
>It's just a Wolfenstein styled raycaster engine
LOL, so wrong it hurts. Please actually look at the game you are attempting to refute next time.

>>9875153
I'm looking at it right now and it's obviously a raycast engine. I don't know how anyone looks at this and think its more technically impressive than the SNES port of Doom.

>>9875165
You're video clip literally has curved walls and variable height sectors. What do you think the Doom Engine is?

>>9875167
>What do you think the Doom Engine is?
Significantly more impressive than this colorless abomination with no changes in elevation.

>>9875170
>no changes in elevation
https://youtu.be/UE4nOYc0RkA?t=302
It must be so frustrating to be an SNES fan.
>colorless
All those "glorious" muddy shades of brown the SNES is known for, and the only cost is you're game runs at a mere 5 FPS. Thanks, but I'll take the performance of the Amiga instead.

>>9875115
>>9875118
>>9875124
>>9875130
>>9875132
>>9875142
>>9875148
>>9875153
>>9875165
>>9875167
>>9875170
>>9875186

If we really want to compare CPU brute force power why not look at the Starfox demo running on a Stock Genesis without any add-on chips?
https://twitter.com/gasega68k/status/1610851545238716417

>>9875186
>It must be so frustrating to be an SNES fan
He said as he linked to a two year old video on a dead homebrew project in desperation.
>All those "glorious" muddy shades of brown the SNES is known for
I don't think it gets more delusional than thinking the SNES was known for shades of brown. While defending the Amiga no less.

>>9875190
That is also a quite funny comparison, as it actually runs BETTER on the STOCK Mega Drive. Just how pathetic was Nintendo hardware? It seems just about anything could run circles around it.

>>9875190
I'd rather the comparison actually be between two games instead of one game and one incomplete tech demo. I know it's a lot to ask in these threads though.

>>9873928
The atari jaguar has a good homebrew community, mostly due the the consoles internals being made open source.

>>9875145
i could have been mistaken about how sprite tiles are handled on the genesis, im certainly less experienced with it than the snes (i was assuming that the various sized sprite tiles still are drawn in rectangles and expect the vram data to be laid out as such).
what i'm trying to say is even the 16x16 oam size on the snes can have a 'tile' that starts on an 8-pixel boundary in vram.
using your notation, you could have an entity that uses 4 16x16 tiles at vram coords (0,0), (8,0), (16,0), and (8,16), assuming your sprite data is laid out as such in vram (it only takes 6 total 8x8 tiles with no empty tiles): you could of course do the same and squash the y-coord instead of x and effectively get a 32x24 set of object tiles: the main thing is that the 'center' slice ultimately ends up being comprised of duplicate 8x8 tiles, but since theyre drawn on top of each other its not visually noticeable

>>9875197
Again, you know nothing of this project. You likely had not even heard of it prior now, so I understand you're frustration in just how much it shows up the 5 YEARS newer SNES. Enjoy playing Mario and Metroid again for the dozenth time, whilst I'll be here playing the latest beta releases of Dread and Grind that are available to Patreon supporters, of which there are still frequent updates.

>>9874871
Pick a side you punk zoomer

>>9875213
No. Fight for my amusement.

>>9875207
>it only takes 6 total 8x8
im retarded and cant count (its 12) but hopefully you get the idea

>>9873928
>there was a heated debate in the place kids who can't code go to argue and prove they also can't google
Color me shocked
>Im personally looking for more info.
Why? Why here? Are you retarded or just trying to continue an argument your upset about?
>an inferior console to develop for
Literally meaningless baby talk to anyone who could give you an informed opinion on both systems

>>9875209
I've heard of this project before this thread. I thought it was pretty typical for an Amiga project (absolute garbage). What I didn't know was that at some point the developer intended to move past Wolf3d and have different floor heights. Looks like it didn't work out though.

>>9875117
Nope, just another Genesis enjoyer.

>>9875207
>>9875217
Please excuse the crude MSPaint, but if I'm following you're basically explaining doing something like this right? Which I follow the sprite usage and overlapping bit, but wouldn't you still be wasting space in VRAM just instead of it being empty tiles they'd be duplicate tiles? I get it would be 12 unique tiles but wouldn't you still need to store 16 in VRAM otherwise the ordering would get screwed up?

>>9875201
It's more an in progress homebrew game at this point. He has enemies, obstacles, and scripting working as well as collision as far as I'm aware. What more does it really need to make it be a fair comparison? Anything else at this point is mostly just adding content and more optimizations. It's not like there's no other 3D games on the Genesis either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9v-9lGNJQ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sXgFmZ-tM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yND5V85iPHc

>>9875302
>What more does it really need to make it be a fair comparison?
How about just be a fully completed game and not a demo that is slowing starting to resemble a game?

>>9875305
>Homebrew doesn't count until it's a fully completed retail game!
That's stupid logic and you know it. Yes there's still a few things to implement but the fact it's running that well on a stock Genesis with collision, animations, scripted enemies and allies, player projectiles, music, etc. still speaks volumes about how much better the system is at handling that kind of thing. And again, there's other games on the system that do 3D polygons well.

>>9875309
Homebrew shouldn't be considered when it's literally an unfinished demo that's missing content compared to the original game. I don't care if there's now one enemy and one thing to collide with now in said demo.

>>9875312
>I don't care if there's now one enemy and one thing to collide with now in said demo.
There's multiple enemies and things to collide with in the demo. And again there's retail 3D polygon games on the Genesis that outperform similar attempts on the SNES.

>>9875317
>There's multiple enemies and things to collide with in the demo
That changes nothing.
>And again there's retail 3D polygon games on the Genesis that outperform similar attempts on the SNES.
That's not what I'm seeing.

>>9875280
>Please excuse the crude MSPaint, but if I'm following you're basically explaining doing something like this right?
exactly (at least, the top part)
>I get it would be 12 unique tiles but wouldn't you still need to store 16 in VRAM otherwise the ordering would get screwed up?
no, the 'vram tiles' part in the diagram is not how vram would be set up in the snes, the snes actually expects the vram sprite graphics in squares, not horizontal slices (the same as the top part of your diagram)
pic related, a sprite graphics file from an smw hack (none of these sprites would use the behavior we're talking about but this is how the sprite data is uploaded to vram)

>>9875334
I think you're misunderstanding the diagram I drew. The sprites are stored in your example the same way as what I depicted in my image when you look at them as 8x8 tiles. It stores the top 2 8x8 tiles in the first 16x16 sprite, then the next 2 tiles in VRAM are the top 2 8x8 tiles for the next 16x16 sprite, and so on for 16 tiles total. The next two tiles will be the bottom 2 tiles in the first 16x16 sprite, followed by the bottom 2 tiles for the next 16x16 sprite, and so on and so forth.

When you look at the data in something like Crystal Tile you see this exact behavior as seen in this shot from Final Fantasy 4. You can see the 16x16 sprites are interleaved with the top row of tiles first, followed by the bottom row of tiles. This is how the data is actually stored and how it will appear in VRAM. So to do what you're describing we'd end up with duplicate tiles in VRAM, otherwise the tile order would be off and everything would be screwed up unless there's some way to change how the tile order is read in VRAM that I'm not aware of.

>>9875321
>That changes nothing.
There's nothing stopping you from making your own similar demo running on a stock SNES with no expansion chips then.
>That's not what I'm seeing
Did you look at the videos provided? Have you seen the SNES try to do polygons without the help of expansion chips? Compare Kawasaki Super Bike and you'll see the SNES version has far less 3D polygons being drawn than it's Genesis counterpart and when they are on screen the frame rate suffers. Compare Race Drivin and you'll see the SNES version is rendering in a much smaller window and the frame rate is still worse than it's Genesis counterpart.

And if we really want to have fun with expansion chips we can compare Virtua Racing to say Stunt Race FX and see that Virtua Racing runs at full screen with a higher frame rate.

>>9875368
Virtua Racing on Genesis isn't full screen and the framerate isn't higher despite it being a much simpler game. And yes I've seen these 3D examples countless times.

>>9875371
>Virtua Racing on Genesis isn't full screen
My bad, it's 320x192. Which is still better than the ~210x130 window Stunt Race FX runs in.
>the framerate isn't higher despite it being a much simpler game.
Virtua Racing runs at a pretty stable 15fps. Stunt Race FX is an erratic 5-10fps at best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Ow3w2DIRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv99qD-RAHo

Virtua Racing is also rendering far more polygons with more AI cars than Stunt Race FX.

>>9875354
I misread your diagram, and frankly i don't really understand what you mean by tile order/interleaving in this case. ex the chocobo's head when using the top-left tile will be a single 16x16 no? using tile ids 0, 1, 16, and 17 in a square shape, the body directly next to it would use 2, 3, 18, and 19. but it doesnt have to be that way, the tiles that comprise individual 16x16s can be stored on any 8x8 boundary as long as they are square
i probably look incompetent enough already (and maybe im still misunderstanding you), but the long and short of it is you dont need to duplicate the green, yellow, grey, and light green tiles in vram to make this work. inspect the sprites in an oam viewer with bsnes or mesen and you will see a lot of games overlay tiles like this (smw's chargin chuck does it while running, the bottom tiles are overlaid like so, and these sprites draws 8x8s and 16x16s from all over the bottom half of vram)

>>9875395
The SVP chip was more powerful and expensive than the SuperFX chip. Virtua Racing doesn't have the kind of complex physics system that Stunt Race FX has so it has two advantages when it comes to performance.

>>9875401
OK that shot is a better example than what you showed before. The tile order and interleaving all still applies, it just wasn't clicking that you were talking about starting one 16x16 sprite in the middle of the tile data for a previous sprite if that makes sense.

So while that is a clever way to work around the VRAM limitations and works for a game like Mario, there's still the issue that you're now using 4 16x16 sprites to draw what would be one sprite on the Genesis, and on top of it now you're eating into your tiles/sprite pixels per scanline budget due to overlapping the sprites. So you're drawing 16 tiles worth of data on screen but only effectively displaying 12 tiles worth of data if that makes sense.

This is fine for something like Mario but I'd imagine it would start to cause problems when you're trying to do something like a beat'em up or an action game with a ton of enemies on screen. Basically you're wasting sprite pixels per scanline in order to try and save VRAM. Which is again not really a song and dance you have to do on the other 16-bit systems.

>>9874256
There's a widescreen hack that makes genesis the definitive version.

>>9875402
>The SVP chip was more powerful and expensive than the SuperFX chip.
Even when overclocked to about the same speed as the SVP chip Stunt Race FX still chugs and struggles to hit the same level of performance.
>Virtua Racing doesn't have the kind of complex physics system that Stunt Race FX has
Just becuase Virtua Racing isn't doing flips and tricks doesn't mean it doesn't have complex physics. There's 16 AI cars that can hit you and destabilize your car causing it to spin, there's tire grip and braking that factors into how your car handles going around turns as well as drifting. The surface you're driving on impacts how the car handles and can cause you to spin out if you're not careful, etc. Just because it's a different kind of physics doesn't mean it's not complex.

And there's still the fact that Stunt Race runs in a much smaller window and is drawing significant amounts of the car with 2D Sprites instead of actual polygons.

>>9875452
The cars in Virtua Racing don't really have AI. They're all scripted and the spins are too. The game has very little actual physics going on.

>>9875456
>The cars in Virtua Racing don't really have AI.
There's still more of them than what Stunt Race FX has.
>They're all scripted and the spins are too. The game has very little actual physics going on.
If the spins were truly just scripted then how much gas, brake, and countersteer you apply when the car starts to destabilize wouldn't have an impact on whether or not you spin out.

>>9875452
>Stunt Race FX still chugs and struggles
Indeed, and there is a very simple reason for that, the bottlenecked SNES DMA, not only is the SNES DMA far slower than the Mega Drive, but, in fact, the total bandwidth is a mere fraction when compared the Mega Drive, PC Engine, or even Master System, due the SNES incapability of transferring ANY graphics during the screen rendering, whereas all 3 aforementioned hardwares have no trouble with that whatsoever, this is a serious and massive bottleneck on the SNES that simply is not to be found on the litany of other, more performant 16-bit hardwares. It is quite funny that, even in the realm of using expensive cheating chips to do 3D rendering, the SNES finds itself maladapted for the task, and struggling to keep up.
>>9875368
>There's nothing stopping you from making your own similar demo running on a stock SNES with no expansion chips then.
Let us be realistic, there is something stopping him from doing that, which is the poorly designed SNES hardware itself, it is simply incapable and not up to the task of doing anything of the sort, and even if it were, doing so would be several times more difficult and simply not worth the effort compared the other, more streamlined 16-bit hardwares.
Which, reminds me, anyone else remember the time someone made a "very impressive" SNES port of an Atari ST demo, running at a "stunning" 25 FPS, using the Super FX?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOqxLBZiBRA
It was then immediately followed up by Titan performing the same demo, at TWICE the FPS, on the STOCK Mega Drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEoSXKgPcqU
This was countered by bitter SNES devs attempting the same demo on the stock SNES, but achieving only a fraction of the FPS, in a tiny window, despite their best efforts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgl3p2xLjFM
The SNES absolutely blown the fuck out as always. ;D

>>9875463
>There's still more of them than what Stunt Race FX has
Yes but the game is designed in such a way that they'll always be a certain distance from one another.
>If the spins were truly just scripted then how much gas, brake, and countersteer you apply when the car starts to destabilize wouldn't have an impact on whether or not you spin out
I'm referring to the spin itself, it's totally linear and just an animation that plays the same way each time.

>>9875470
>Yes but the game is designed in such a way that they'll always be a certain distance from one another.
So? It's still keeping track of all 16 and where they are on the track, which is more than what Stunt Race FX is doing.
>it's totally linear and just an animation that plays the same way each time.
So? Physics were still involved to determine whether or not it should happen.

>>9875474
>It's still keeping track of all 16 and where they are on the track
That's not very complex when they're all on a set path.
>Physics were still involved to determine whether or not it should happen
Can you even call something that simple physics?

This is a nice looking fps on genesis
https://twitter.com/ErikHaliewicz

>>9875483
>That's not very complex when they're all on a set path.
There's still more AI cars than Stunt Race FX. Even if the AI isn't great they still have to be drawn.
>Can you even call something that simple physics?
So calculating how much grip the tires have based on the surface, speed, turning angle and how much brake is being applied to know if the car will spin out or not isn't physics related?

>>9875220
I like both consoles anon I just want to know what system is easier to develop for because im looking for a free hobby. Not everyone knows everything about everything like you anon.

>>9875783
Neither system will be easier. Both will be infinitely difficult for you.

>>9875795
Duh! Im not in a rush to get anything out tomorrow. Nothing is easy at first

>>9874489
Why were these pastel colours so uncommon on the Sega back in the day, whereas SNES had plenty? Like, the gif shows they're clearly within the Mega Drive's colour palette

SEGA and Amiga lost, get over it.

This kills the segafag
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tNQfJZjhfP8

>>9876281
A shitty port of the least demanding Sonic game but with lower resolution, far worse physics, slowdowns galore, and lifeless muffled MIDI music? Is this meant to prove anything, other than that the SNES clearly could not handle Sonic after all?
Here is a funny anecdote for you, after completing this demo, the developer decided to discontinue on this project, both because it was far too much effort to do something like this on the SNES only to end up with an inferior end result, and because he had reached the conclusion that the Mega Drive was far more powerful.

>>9876274
Let me guess, getting over it magically coincides with playing a Nintendo game? If it was a Nintendo thread you wouldn’t even have posted in it?

>>9876337
>>9876302
The genesis and amiga has no games, so fanboys had to cope making ones thenselves.

>the genesis was more powerful

>>9876374
Breh I had a SNES growing up but the genesis had no games is a fag opinion lmao. It focused on different genres and depending on what you like that could
Disappoint you but it absolutely has games don’t be a contrarian faggot. 8 and 16 bit eta were very game rich in general.

>>9876374
>no games
Name 10 SNES games that are not Nintendo IP's, are not Squaresoft games from before they hit their prime and started actually making good games on the PlayStation, and are not massively outclassed by alternatives on a competitor.
In before the inevitable deflection, or trying to pass Castlevania or Contra as if they aren't run circles around by their far superior Mega Drive, PC Engine, X68000 counterparts.

>>9876383
Auster troon, give up
The board prefers the snes over those systems.
Stop defending amiga shit.

>>9876380
Trannies like>>9876383
Make me hate sega fags more

Name some good games that aren't sonic shit.
Inferior versions of castlevania or contra or sport shit or garbage arcade ports don't count

>>9876392
>>9876393
No response, how sadly typical for SNES defenders. Why are you so adamant to defend a console that is not only shit hardware that NOBODY in their right mind wants to develop for, but doesn't even have games?
>TRANNY!! AUSTRALIAN!!
This is all you have.

>>9876393
I don’t know what point you’re trying to make I don’t really consider myself a segafag, just an idort thanks to the wonders of emulation. If it’s fun I’m going to play it I don’t really give a shit who made it. All these companies are ultimately fags who would just as soon see us in a ditch if it meant they could get another 5 bucks.

>>9876401
More fondly remembered than amiga and sega shit.
>>9864871
You lost redditor, back to your europoor forums.

>>9876406
Australia kun is a subversive kike that wants people to hate nintendo and japanese games>>9876401
Just proving euro pc fags are incompatible with this board and want to start shit.

>>9876396
Alien Soldier, Thunder Force IV, Soleil, Story of Thor, Shining Force II, Ristar, Kid Chameleon, Adventures of Batman and Robin, Panorama Cotton, Ranger X, what is your point?

>>9876414
Yeah that person is mentally ill lmao, I can understand hating Nintendo for their kike business practices (NSO is an abomination compared to virtual console) but that doesn’t affect the quality of SNES games today

>>9876428
I think the snes definitely has the better back catalogue, but for modern homebrew genesis is more robust

When will genesis fags drop their inferiority complex?

>>9876514
that would require seeing the world in more than 512 colors

>>9875468
>cheating chips
>citing demoscene shit
>brining up the ST for any reason
>ending all of that in an emoticon
When will europoors grow up, it's been over 30 years now

>>9876417
Panorama Cotton is not a good game.

>>9876631
>I don't understand the subject of the thread
We can see that

>>9876652
This is about homebrew guys, let's not forget, of course the snes has great games. This is more about is the snes harder to develop for today, and also are there work arounds

>>9876514
You WILL discuss genesis sovl on this board and you WILL like it

>>9876656
SNES is more about romhacks than homebrew games from scratch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hcqu7R4NBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2incXPOOItA

>>9876656
That's probably the biggest problem in these threads. SNES fanboys see any criticism of the hardware as though someone just raped their sister or something. They then go into full blown console war defense mode throwing out subjective opinions about their favorite Nintendo or Squaresoft game completely missing the actual point of the conversation. The fact we had people in this thread saying things like the Genesis Starfox demo doesn't count when discussing what the console can do because it's homebrew just further proves that these people don't read and are more focused on continuing the playground arguments of their childhood.

>>9876684
But there should be more homebrews, the console is so popular and the snes mini was a big hit. There must be forgotten knowledge on how to make the system sing. The devs from that era are probably in their 50s now, I hope some ccme along and tell us what they did

>>9876689
Saying
>here's what the console can do
And then showing a totally incomplete demo with barely any gameplay is not a good look.

>>9876656
SNES dev is starting to pull forward finally, we're seeing an increasing wave of hacks to switch games over to fastrom for full S-CPU speed and getting meme homebrew like the Sonic demo

>>9876689
Let's have a detente on the merits of the systems in their heyday because both sides are set in their ways, let's focus on the current state of homebrew vs hacking and the pros and cons of each

What is Homebrewing like on the Genesis? I've never done any of that but I'd love to give it a shot.

>>9876710
Dude there is so much to discover youtube 'pigsy genesis dev' or genesis dev

>>9876716
Not that anon but Is there a central repository to find completed genesis homebrew?

>>9876695
It's not a good look if you don't care about programming yet speaks volumes to those who do. Way to tell on yourself that you don't actually care about the thread subject

>>9876729
What masterworks have you programmed poindexter?

>>9876656
To bring it back to the original topic though, the earlier discussion about sprite size problems this probably will give a better idea of how much of an issue this is. So again let's say we're drawing a 24x32 size sprite. On the Genesis this would be 1 hardware sprite and wouldn't have to do any odd work arounds to try and avoid VRAM waste. On SNES we already have to start thinking about how to make this work. If we do 1 sprite we'll have VRAM waste, if we do more sprites we'll waste hardware sprites and possibly waste time writing drawing two overlapping tiles eating into our sprites per scanline budget. Furthermore we can only use 2 sprite sizes at a time on SNES so no we have to balance do we have larger sprites to save sprites in OAM, or do we use smaller sprites and waste sprites in OAM for larger objects. This is right off the bat an annoying thing to have to juggle that you don't have to do on the Genesis.

Now for pure sprite flexing purposes let's say we want to draw as many of these 24x32 sprites as possible. On the Genesis we can technically draw 80 of them on screen at once since it's just 1 sprite. If we've opted for not wasting VRAM on the SNES and are using smaller sprite sizes, the best we can hope for using the 4 16x16 sprite example described earlier is 32 of these objects at once. That's less than half of what we can do on the Genesis. But it gets worse.

On Genesis we can almost fill the screen with these 80 sprites without flickering or drop out. We have enough sprites per scanline and enough total sprites to cover about 320x192 worth of screen real estate with sprites. On SNES though we have a problem. We're drawing 16 8x8 tiles but only effectively displaying 12 of them. As a result we'd only be able to cover about 192x128 worth of screen real estate with these sprites before we run out of OAM entries and hit our sprites per scanline limit.

>>9876732
Telling you would be casting pearls before swine. You've conceded

>>9876745
You can't explain why an incomplete techdemo is a good example of what hardware is capable of and you can't cite anything you've ever programmed. Sounds more like you're the one conceding to me.

>>9876748
I don't need to explain why a tech demo is an example for what hardware is capable of, what the fuck do you think "tech demo" means you fucking neophyte?

>>9876738
But wait, it continues to get worse. Let's say we want all of these sprites to have a unique set of tiles, no palette swaps or reuse whatsoever. On Genesis with 80 of these sprites that would require about 30KB of VRAM for those tiles. You can do that no problem on the Genesis. On the SNES though we can have an issue. If we're doing it with our 4 16x16 sprites we can give all 32 of those 24x32 objects unique tiles as that would cost about 12KB of VRAM which does fit in the 16KB allotted to sprites. But let's say we want to show those Genesis bros who's boss and switch it over to 32x32 sprites because fuck it we need to flex that w can to can draw 80 sprites if not more. Well now to draw 80 of these 24x32 sprite objects with all unique tiles we'd need about 40KB of VRAM space. This is because we have to waste VRAM on empty tiles due to us using 32x32 size sprites. You flat out can't do this because you can only use 16KB of VRAM for sprite tiles.

This issue is probably one of the most overall frustrating parts about working with the SNES over other 16-bit platforms. Right out of the gate you have a ton of annoying limitations that you have to factor into your overall design that just isn't a thing on the other 2 systems. While it's not an issue with your typical platformer or RPG, it is a major issue when you start trying to do arcade style beat'em ups and action games. It's the main reason why many SNES games in these genres had either less enemies, more stiff animations, or both when compared to their Genesis counterparts.

>>9876759
It means its a demo and not a functioning game.

>>9876693
>there should be more homebrews
Disagree strongly, SNES homebrews would be a tremendous waste of time and effort, for an end result that will be inferior to what could be had on one of the competing 16-bit hardwares, if it even ends up finished at all. Homebrew developers ought to put their focus on performant 16-bit hardwares that can actually accomplish their game ideas without compromise, rather than struggling endlessly with something as flawed and bottlenecked as the SNES.

>>9876768
Is there a reason why there werent more Jrpgs on the genesis? Was it simply that the snes was more capable and more popular so why not develop for it? I always wondered why the genesis only had phantasy star and shining games while the snes was flooded with JRPGS

>>9876767
It's a functioning demonstration of the technology. A technology demonstration. A tech demo. If it wasn't functioning it wouldn't even run. Again you've shown how informed you actually are on what you pretend to care about

>>9876773
But even you would agree that if it was more dev friendly it would be the go to choice for homebrew. Considering the amount of snes consoles in the wild and the popularity of the snes mini. I think if there were high quality new snes games they would probably fund in the 6 figures on kickstarter

>>9876774
It's mostly because the Genesis was dead last in Japan and the SNES was dominating that market by a wide margin. So the big name JPRG developers mostly focused on the platform that had the biggest Japanese install base since they had a better shot at getting more sales.

>>9876775
It's functional as a demo but in terms of showing what the console can do when playing a game it's inaccurate.

>>9876783
According to the guy that didn't even realise the term tech demo means technology demonstration

>>9876784
According to reality actually.

>>9876782
Jeez, I didnt know it sold so poorly. It makes the japanese corporate end of the company look even dumber messing with the success Sega of america was having

>>9876780
We can speculate on if it was more dev friendly but at that point it requires us to completely change the hardware as the major hurdles are hardware related, not tool and SDK related. See the earlier discussions and explanations about it's sprite limitations. No amount of fancy code or dev tools is going to fix that.

>>9876787
>he still doesn't realise demos can be interactive

>>9876780
It would need to be more developer friendly, and more capable hardware in general. Modern SNES productions would look incredibly sterilized and underwhelming when put up against modern Mega Drive productions, thanks the litany of hardware bottlenecks and issues that simply cannot ever be worked around, so no, I absolutely do not agree that they would perform well on KickStarter.

>>9876789
> It makes the japanese corporate end of the company look even dumber messing with the success Sega of america was having
That's kind of a meme. Sega of Japan pretty much fully backed Sega of America and let them do whatever they wanted as they trusted them to make the right decision. It wasn't until Sega of America's decision to do the 32X over the Saturn blew up in their faces that Sega of Japan started to reign in control a bit more.

>>9876790
Lets say for argument sake, we werent designing an action/arcade style game, and instead were making an rpg in the vein of a chrono trigger or ff6, Based on the amount of people that have nostalgia for those games and by proxy the console they were originally on, it would make sense to develop new rpgs for that system. It might be more difficult to do, but for marketing purposes the juice might be worth the squeeze

>>9876798
I am going by the descriptions of events from the console wars book, so there may be a bias there

>>9876792
Do you genuinely think barely interactive demos are good examples of what a console can do?

>>9876803
Part of the issue there is that those homebrew JRPGs would be going up against some of the most beloved and top tier JRPGs ever made. So they'd be compared directly against them and they wouldn't be able to hold up. Making good JRPGs to go toe to toe with stuff from Squaresoft and Enix requires large teams and lots of time and effort that most homebrew developers don't have. Which is why most homebrew JRPGs are generally kind of bland, generic, and uninspired.

It's just not something to expect out of the homebrew community.

>>9876807
The Console Wars book is more hyperbole and fan fiction than actual historical events.

>>9876815
You'd be surprised. I follow the jrpg scene, and there is a real indie renaissance right now. There's a hunger for turn based games, because the aaa studios arent making them as much. Chained echos was a big hit recently. a high quality homebrew Rpg would do very well

>>9876783
>in terms of showing what the console can do when playing a game it's inaccurate.
It's not some pre-rendered movie you know. Calling software that runs on hardware inaccurate because of personal incredulity is openly admitting you don't appreciate homebrew programming

>>9876820
It's inaccurate to actual video games running on the same hardware.

>>9876812
>Do you think demos are good examples
Demos are fundamentally and inherently examples, you don't need to make a finished product for the sake of demonstrating what the hardware is capable of.
>>9876825
It objectively isn't. It's a demonstration, literally. Tech demos demonstrate technology. Nice reading comprehension champ.

>>9876841
They're demonstrations of what the console can do when it isn't tasked with running a video game. This board is supposed to be about video games and not movies.

>>9876847
>It's not some pre-rendered movie you know. Calling software that runs on hardware inaccurate because of personal incredulity is openly admitting you don't appreciate homebrew programming
Nice reading comprehension champ

>>9876854
Being a movie doesn't require it being pre rendered. It could be a real time movie.

>>9876858
>It could be this! It could be that!
I guess you'll never know on account of your personal incredulity! Sucks to suck.

>>9874984
good to see the assembly language larper is still here, years later, lurking and seething

>>9876679
Nope.

>>9874664
What are the limitations on running Genny on 256x224? Same as the Snes?

>>9874702
>>9874686
Nigger ugly wussy.

>>9876869
What I know is that games on any platform never look like techdemos.

>>9876875
That would be an excellent point if the whole idea wasn't to perfectly recreate Starfox on the SNES.

>>9875115
cringe
>>9874824
based

>>9876689
>muh SNES fanboy
(You)>>9876376

>>9876803
>>9876815
>>9876819
The problem with an SNES JRPG is the same as with any other homebrew on the SNES: the flawed, deficient hardware will hold back the game from reaching it's potential, and living up to the modern standards people have for 16-bit games. Why do you suppose the character sprites in Final Fantasy are so small? Or the enemies, totally static? The background tilemaps, repetitive? It is because the SNES struggles with all of those aspects. If anything, late era Mega Drive and PC Engine JRPG's prove that they are actually far more capable, even for the "SNES wheel house" genre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VNblKdUdOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t3WjNc77Hc
And that is to say nothing of the much larger effort you would spend, to even attempt to match the more limited capabilities the SNES will produce, it simply makes zero sense not to, instead, develop you're JRPG for a more performant 16-bit hardware.

>>9874953
>The funniest story about the IIGS is that Apple themselves didn't want it more powerful than the Macintosh, so they underclocked the CPU LOL
>No wonder the 65c816 gets a bad wrap...

I have heard that too, that the CPU was apparently nerfed so it wouldn't be competitive with the Macintosh, which was Steve Jobs baby. But that kind of thing was really common in the micro computer industry. But the 65c816 was always planned as the main CPU, because Woz intended it to be backwards compatible with the Apple II from the start. I have only had limited use of a Apple IIGS, I know my school had a couple of them, along with a bunch of Apple IIc's and Apple Macintosh classics. I only remember playing a version of Oregon Trail on it. the Apple Ii GS also had some impressive audio capabilities. 16 channel MIDI playback.

>>9874815
>There's still Apple II home brew games being made. Maybe the community is not as active as the C64 community. But the 8bit Apple II PC's still have a dedicated following,


Homebrew games aren't the biggest priority with the homebrew scene on the Apple II. But there's still a lot of people doing hardware mods, and making software for it.

>>9873928
Genesis is much easier to develop because the architecture is more mature because SEGA used off the shelf parts plus Genesis dev kits are easier to use.

>>9876819
>there is a real indie renaissance right now.
And most of those wouldn't be able to run on the SNES, right out of the gate the resolution is way too high and the games are way to big to fit on an SNES cartridge.
> Chained echos was a big hit recently.
And it was in development for over 7 years with a large team and has sold maybe a couple 100k digital copies across all it's platforms. You're not going to be able to get a team that size to devote that much time to an SNES JRPG and you wont get that many sales on just the SNES alone, requiring you to provide it on other platforms. But then the technical limitations of the SNES will make it look a lot more dated compared to titles like Chained Echoes that simply try to look 16-bit but in reality are doing so much more than what an actual SNES is capable of that it could never hope to run on the thing.

>>9876895
>late era Mega Drive and PC Engine JRPG's prove that they are actually far more capable, even for the "SNES wheel house" genre

>>9874956
Phantasy Star IV nigga. The Genesis can do JRPGs just fine it's just that due to the console being less popular in Japan Japanese devs had to learn how to use the SNES but in a vacuum they would have chosen the Genesis because it's hardware was similar to home computers of the time.

>>9876896
congrats on proving the point of the post by completely ignoring that this is a technical discussion thread talking about how the consoles stack up for homebrew purposes.

>>9876895
It does seem to be more practical at this moment to homebrew a jrpg style game for the genesis. Im an illustrator with a healthy following (I cant dox myself for obvious reasons) learning pixel art, Im still keeping my eye on any news on snes homebrew though because other anons are saying that advancements are being made.

>>9876925
>It does seem to be more practical at this moment to homebrew a jrpg style game for the genesis.
It's not really practical on any system. JRPGs require a lot of time, resources, and people to make something decent. That pretty much is the exact opposite of what you have to work with in the homebrew community.

>>9876915
im in it for the long haul. I do commercial work right now, but I dont think I can rely on that in the future with AI and plus some of the people I have to deal with are soul crushing. My long term goal is to make coomer games, because I already do lewd art on the side, and I feel like the market for western adult games will explode in the next few years

>>9876927
Comparatively speaking however, it is far more viable on the Mega Drive, thanks it's better hardware and tools, not to mention, the end result can be better than what would have been possible on SNES.

>>9876927
I have a sinking suspicion furries will
Crank out the first homebrew JRPG, they always seem to be the most coordinated and autistic. The brony mod for HOI4 is the most coordinated, has the least troon drama, and actually releases content. I don’t get it.

>>9876773
>tremendous waste of time and effort, for an end result that will be inferior to what could be had on one of the competing 16-bit hardw-ACK
Bet dottie dreads nought look fun.

>>9876923
>PSIV
A hundred bucks than Star Fox…

>>9876945
>dottie dreads nought
Short and underwhelming game that barely qualifies beyond "brief tech demo", and, even so, it does absolutely nothing interesting or impressive. Were it a Mega Drive game, it would not be on anyone's radar, because Mega Drive productions run utter circles around it.

>>9876873
Basically the VDP is clocked slower in 256 wide mode so you go from 80 sprites to 64 sprites and 320 sprite pixels per scan line to 256 sprite pixels per scanline. SNES can edge it out in this mode as it can do 272 sprite pixels per scanline, but the previously mentioned issues with sprite sizes can still make that hard to achieve.

Basically there's no real benefit to running in 256 wide mode on the Genesis unless you're porting a game that was originally designed around that resolution.

One neat thing you can do on the Genesis though is you can reuse entries in the Sprite Allocation Table (Genesis equivalent of OAM), that were already drawn earlier in the frame to draw new sprites later on in the frame. Doing that you can exceed the 64/80 sprites limit and quite a few games do it. You can't do this on the SNES though as OAM is completely locked down during active display. To do it on SNES you have disable active display which will result in black lines being drawn mid frame while active display is disabled.

>>9876934
I don't think putting your bets on SNES homebrew is a real viable strategy for long term job security.

>>9876954
>does absolutely nothing interesting or impressive
>but wanted on MD anyway
Everytime.

>>9874853
>testing 3 enemies on prototype rom
No shit.

>>9876954
>it does absolutely nothing interesting or impressive
Sounds like Genesis homebrew with the exception of Xeno Crisis.

>>9876962
>To do it on SNES you have disable active display which will result in black lines being drawn mid frame while active display is disabled.
Super Mario Kart actually does this, and hides it very well. You probably never noticed before.

>>9876965
you're probably right, I do think coomer games will gain in popularity. My concept is sprites that resemble marvel vs capcom 2 with chrono trigger like combat and a rythmn based timed attack function. Realistically I'll probably make it in RPG maker but I find homebrew and romhacking extremely interesting. Im already making decent money for my age, but I do fear AI

>>9876967
correct not being on anyone's radar means it's wanted

>>9876974
It is a legit criticism. Streets of Rage can easily get up to 6-7 or so enemies on screen with 2 players. Which when you factor in the issues the SNES has with sprites this becomes a choke point for the system. It's why most beat'em ups on the system only 3-4 enemies on screen at a given time and sometimes even cut 2 player support.

>>9876983
I'm well aware it does it which is fine for something like that where it's doing a split screen effect. But if you're trying to do an action game, a beat'em up, platformer, etc. that trick isn't viable on the SNES as you don't want a solid black line going through the middle of the screen on those kinds of games.

>>9876992
Not out on cartridge.

>>9877007
That's nice

>>9876383
>Name 10 SNES games that are not Nintendo IP's, are not Squaresoft games from before they hit their prime and started actually making good games on the PlayStation, and are not massively outclassed by alternatives on a competitor
Dragon Quest V
Terranigma
Arkanoid: Doh it Again
Actraiser
Top Gear
Aladdin
Mega Man X
Super Street Fighter II
Mortal Kombat II
Street Racer

>>9876978
Yeah what genesis homebrew is a must play besides xeno crisis which doesn’t even count imo because it was a commercial release for w a ton of platforms? Genesis homebrew gets mogged by romhacks as far as “things people actually want and talk about.”

>>9877076
Cool, and this thread is about homebrew and not romhacks. If you don't want to talk about homebrew, go talk about romhacks in a romhacks thread. This isn't complicated

>>9877076
>xeno crisis which doesn’t even count imo because it was a commercial release for w a ton of platforms?
The Genesis version is the original and the lead platform, so it counts. Pier Solar and Demons of Asteborg are other good ones I'd say are worth playing. Paprium isn't bad but it was in the oven for too long. There's also quite a few other there that are free as ROMs like Woflenstein 3D, Miniplanets, Fix it Felix Jr., etc.

>>9877103
This idea that people arent interested in homebrew isn't true, there are lots of videos made about 'NEW GAME ON CLASSIC CONSOLE X' etc

>>9877110
Obviously not, which is why I indicated his disinterest specifically.

>>9877076
Tanzer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8CmXkW77M
Which, in a recurring theme, is way beyond the capabilities of the SNES.

>>9877132
That game really shows the color limitations of the Genesis.

>>9877148
Substantiative observation, care to elaborate?

>>9877162
The colors are pretty ugly.

>>9877132
Ok so tanzer and xeno crisis, both of which do look like they deserve plenty of applause for a game well made. But these e celeb epic homebrew on the horizon videos show dozens of games which I’m guessing will maybe produce one or two finished games and 35 tech demos/state of limbo patreons

This thread is just as bad as the ps1 vs n64 threads I see occasionally. Jesus, some of you need serious help.

>>9877174
It's generally the fanboys who don't want to own up to the technical weaknesses of their favorite platform. This thread is supposed to be about discussing the pros and cons of different systems from a homebrew perspective but idiots who don't pay attention to that clutter it with "But my favorite childhood game is on X system therefore it's better!" nonsense.

>>9877174
No its not, there's a lot of interesting discussion in here and conflicting opinions. Dont act like you're above it all you dweeb

>>9877180
Based “get off the fence and pick a side faggot” anon

>>9877167
You apparently lack appreciation for stylized color pallettes, which every retro game has to deal with. Do you even like retro games, or just the ones you grew up with?

>>9877202
>if you don't like ugly indie games on old hardware then you don't like retro games

>>9877212
You're reacting emotionally without internalizing the words.
>Do you even like retro games,
>or just the ones you grew up with?
Meaning you only like retro games you grew up with. Complete games that look good. Right? The fact you disparage homebrew that isn't up to your arbitrary standard indicates your inability to appreciate the accessibility of the Genesis hardware. Why are you still here?

>>9877174
The threads where the N64 is rightfully knocked down a peg? It is high time for the same to happen to the overrated and terribly designed SNES.

>>9877229
>The fact you disparage homebrew that isn't up to your arbitrary standard indicates your inability to appreciate the accessibility of the Genesis hardware
Or maybe Tanzer is just not a very good lookin game.

>>9877240
In your opinion, which you've demonstrated to be completely worthless. Noted.

>>9877239
The SNES has games unlike the n64 though, I think that’s a big difference

>>9877072
>Dragon Quest V
Outdone by all the Phantasy Star games.
>Terranigma
Outperformed by the Ys games on the PC Engine, or Legend of Xanadu.
>Actraiser
That slow sim game shit ruins it, but even just comparing action sections, Valis on PC Engine, Mamono Hunter Yohko or Alicia Dragoon or Jewel Master on Mega Drive are far better.
>Top Gear
Outrun, Kawasaki Superbike, or Lotus on the Amiga.
>Aladdin
Mega Drive Aladdin is far superior.
>Super Street Fighter II
Better on both the Mega Drive and the PC Engine.
>Mortal Kombat II
Better on Mega Drive.
>Mega Man X
This one is decent, and the Mega Drive port is not completed yet, however, the crippling and nauseating slowdowns still ruin it, it is much better played on the PSP remaster which does not have that issue.
So, gratuitously, you are left with,
>Mega Man X
>Arkanoid: Doh it Again
>Street Racer
And this is meant to be a top-tier library for one of the "best consoles ever"? It sure looks like nothing but underwhelming scraps to me.

>>9877076
You could spend 2 years making a homebrew and hope to get 500 downloads. Now, if you added COLOR to a Gameboy game? Ohboyohboyohboy, you better get the cumbuckets ready cuz there's gonna be a 20,000+ person jizz storm.

>>9877265
>it is much better played on the PSP remaster
I don't think you could get any more definitive proof that Australia-kun doesn't even play video games than this.

>>9877265
Do you really think phantasy star is better than dqv? Elaborate

>>9877271
Yeah because, again, the game boy game is probably finished and has gameplay, it’s not a tech demo being zoy-face pointed to by an e celeb going look at this thing which MIGHT release if the Brazilian dev is given 5 more years and isn’t executed in his favela alley randomly one day, it’s just remember that game boy game you liked, here it is with color. The solid gameplay is already there.

Gotta make good resulation to go with your homebrew.

>>9877276
>more depth in combat
>better balance
>way better story
>music is not muffled MIDI shit
Phantasy Star is so far ahead of Dragon Quest, it's not even funny. Dragon Quest only really hit it's stride on the PlayStation, with the excellent DQ7.

>>9877332
You liking 7 says another about you anon, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong but it does kind of explain your personality. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but are you on the autism spectrum?

>>9874274
There is Xeno Crisis
Paprium
And a turn based JRPG made by the same devs that I forget the name of

All three of those are full length games that are actually superior to the stuff released back in the day and run on stock Genesis hardware

>>9877279
Cute caricature, but I think you missed how he was being facetious. Creating romhacks and homebrew is a creative hobby, it's not a popularity contest.

>>9877265
>Mega Drive Aladdin is far superior.
Nah, I'd rather have competent level design and a focus on platforming instead of shitty combat.
>ArKINOid, i.e. the best SNES mouse game
>underwhelming scrap
Bait
>>Super Street Fighter II
>Better on both the Mega Drive and the PC Engine.
Super Street Fighter II never came out on PC Engine. It only got the original and Champion Edition. You're retarded.
>>Mortal Kombat II
>Better on Mega Drive
More bait. SNES version is objectively superior because of its better presentation, fully animated characters with no cut frames, and exclusive 4-on-4 battles. Even the creator of the game called it one of the best arcade ports ever.

>Like learning proper English.
> I'm not the one posting completely broken sentences missing entire verbs.

>>9877450
>Desperately wanting arkanoid to be taken seriously on a list of unique killer apps
That's a hard sell. Even if it plays good with a mouse I'm always going to associate playing arkanoid with a paddle.
>Even the creator of [MKII] called it one of the best arcade ports ever.
That was the art director, not the programmer. I'd say the 32x version is the best arcade port.
>That's not the Mega Drive
Yeah that's cos I'm someone else with a different opinion.

>>9877552
The 32X version is missing all the same frames as the Genesis version. It has more color, better UI and voice overs but other than that it's identical to the Genesis port. The backgrounds are still handled by the Genesis alone too so they're still pretty lacking in color.
https://youtu.be/k3hrNAgjzp0?t=26
https://youtu.be/Oz-lePGTm_s?t=26

>>9876962
>One neat thing you can do on the Genesis though is you can reuse entries in the Sprite Allocation Table (Genesis equivalent of OAM), that were already drawn earlier in the frame to draw new sprites later on in the frame. Doing that you can exceed the 64/80 sprites limit and quite a few games do it. You can't do this on the SNES though as OAM is completely locked down during active display.
Yeah it's called sprite multiplexing. Something familiar to every C64 and Amiga programmer. Nothing special here.
>To do it on SNES you have disable active display which will result in black lines being drawn mid frame while active display is disabled.
Same crap as the NES where it won't let you touch the PPU while it's actively rendering.

>>9876924
>>9875198
>>9876401
>>9876773
>>9876796
You know nothing about programming lmao

>>9877703
Who are you talking to?

>>9877619
>The 32X version is missing all the same frames as the Genesis version. It has more color, better UI and voice overs but other than that it's identical to the Genesis port. The backgrounds are still handled by the Genesis alone too so they're still pretty lacking in color.
>https://youtu.be/k3hrNAgjzp0?t=26 [Remove]

one thing to note about Mortal Kombat 2 on the SNES is that the sprites are horizontally lower resolution than the genesis game. the devs also did this, to work better with the SNES's 256x224, when viewed at 4:3. the genesis/ MD game outputs at 320x224.

>>9875818
Nothing will be easy later. Just pick a system, fuck around for a little while, and give up. Like all the other faggots who spend all their time asking and none doing. Then you can get back to arguing about shit you found on google.

>>9877741
Who? You?

>>9877787
Bug me bit is dev won’t use hires 512x448 on SNES?

>>9877792

>>9873965
Is there something wrong with WLA DX?

>>9877812
No?

>>9877787
Sculptured Software did a great job on the SNES version of MK2. Quite a turn around from their shitty MK1 port on the same platform. Two things I forgot to mention about the 32X port: they fixed the blob shadows from the Genesis version and the Pit 2 stage fatality is better but still disappointing considering the power of the 32X. The scaling background really should've been full speed and the splat animation isn't synced correctly making it look like they hit the air.
https://youtu.be/k3hrNAgjzp0?t=322
https://youtu.be/1SKHKVOgqJE?t=37

>>9877817
> Is there something wrong with WLA DX
the .8BIT and .16BIT directives don't seem to work right on SNES, so i end up just throwing whatever REP #$xx and SEP #$xx i want the code to behave like, and the X register referring to .DB data values in memory refuses to build sometimes? otherwise it's fine i guess
has anyone else here had this problem or any solutions? of course not lol

>>9877815
>Bug me bit is dev won’t use hires 512x448 on SNES?

512x448 mode is limited to only displaying 16 colours per layer. Also, the performance can be bad. There really aren;t many, games that even use the high resolution mode. The best example is RPM Racing. It's sequel Rock n Roll Racing uses standard resolution, and to be honest runs better, has more colours on screen.

>>9877825
>Two things I forgot to mention about the 32X port: they fixed the blob shadows from the Genesis version and the Pit 2 stage fatality is better but still disappointing considering the power of the 32X. The scaling background really should've been full speed and the splat animation isn't synced correctly making it look like they hit the air.


Image related is what the 32x game looks like with the Genesis/ MD VPD layers turned off. The 32x adds higher colour sprites, a high colour HUD, proper silhouetted shadows (not seen here because of the black BG), and extra BG objects, like the dragon. But the system still uses the Genesis hardware for the background layers, resulting in rather low-colour BG's.

>>9877915
with Genesis layers on.

>>9877825

The yell sounds better on the 32x, and I think the audio samples are an improvement. But I agree, the SNES looks better.

>>9877915
>512x448 mode is limited to only displaying 16 colours per layer. Also, the performance can be bad. There really aren;t many, games that even use the high resolution mode. The best example is RPM Racing. It's sequel Rock n Roll Racing uses standard resolution, and to be honest runs better, has more colours on screen.

The background layer is running at 512x448, while the sprite layer with the cars are running at 256x224. Not many games ever used the high resolution layer, and I think Nintendo used it in a few games for high resolution text layer and for some transparency effects in games.

RPM Racing:
https://youtu.be/OyvecUB5xp4?t=38

Rock 'N Roll Racing (uses standard resolution) :
https://youtu.be/auoTvdvN9uk?t=61

>>9877915
>512x448 mode is limited to only displaying 16 colours per layer. Also, the performance can be bad.
Not only this, but also, the higher resolution graphics take up more VRAM, requiring one to sacrifice some of his precious 16 kbs VRAM for sprites in the process, which is already a precious commodity, the high resolution mode is essentially useless in any practical terms due to the many constraints and issues, and exists solely for the purpose of spec sheet number inflation.

>>9877937
Probe had some weird priorities for the animations in their port of MK2. The idle stances have more frames than the SNES but everything else has less.

>>9877202
that game looks like shit dude

>>9877265
all wrong btw

>>9877818
I don’t mention samefag lol

>>9877929
Mana 3 use it too

>>9877995
We do not live in the same reality if you cannot admit that Outrun is better than Top Gear.

>>9878001
>>>9877929 (You)
>Mana 3 use it too

Mana 3 uses it for the menu screens and to display text at higher resolution. Which is one of the better uses for the high res mode.

>>9877997
Considering you referred to those posts collectively as one person you kinda did, but that's beside the point as none of them are mine anyway. Have fun with your strange game of guess who.

>>9875302
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9v-9lGNJQ4 [Remove]

There is an SNES version too:
https://youtu.be/c3iWEecSEiA?t=18

But the Genesis/ MD game has more trackside detail, more pre calculated polygons, better 'animated' scaling. the sprites don;t actually scale, they are basically animated at different sizes. The Genesis/ MD game is letter boxed.

Domark also made F1 World Championship for the Genesis/ MD as well as a sequel. which uses the same game engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojq3cq0STQ&t=111s

There was also an SNES port:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8aUiwXA1SU

>>9877685
>Yeah it's called sprite multiplexing. Something familiar to every C64 and Amiga programmer. Nothing special here.
Possibly, but you can't really do it on the SNES since the PPU is locked down during active display.
>Same crap as the NES.
Which makes it all the more ridiculous that the SNES has the same limitation as it's predecessor when it's competition, the PC-Engine and Sega Genesis, don't have that limitation and came out years prior.
>>9878119
>There is an SNES version
Which I mentioned. The SNES versions are doing significantly less with polygons.
>The Genesis/ MD game is letter boxed
And the SNES versions are running in an overall lower resolution I believe.

>>9874256
>the lack of transparencies
Both of them are dithered you retard. Even SNES used it.

>>9878119
The game engine feels like a waste when the SNES can use mode 7 to achieve way better results.
https://youtu.be/rCRVDATFlKY?t=175
https://youtu.be/22O7ByKBtMc?t=478
https://youtu.be/Esd5RLKvVqc?t=238

>>9878124
>>There is an SNES version
>Which I mentioned. The SNES versions are doing significantly less with polygons.

I think I missed that part. Sorry. The engine that Domark made for F1 World Championship (MD, Gen) and Kawasaki Superbike Challenge is a literal recreation of the Vroom engine from the Atari ST and Amiga game. It's like Domark completely remade the engine for the genesis/ MD hardware:

Even the letterbox on the top looks identical:
https://youtu.be/W_gGNE7u5Es?t=85
https://youtu.be/jIXHrCe6WIs?t=46

The cars do the same scaling tricks, pre calculated polygons.

>>9878131
SNES transparencies are kind of convoluted and limiting that they pretty much fall into the gimmick category. You can't really use it for most of the things you'd want to use it for.

Basically the way to think about how it works is like this. You have a main screen and a sub screen. Everything on the main screen is opaque, everything on the sub screen will be blended with the main screen with the same blending mode. So you can't really say "I want this sprite to be blended with these settings, and this background layer to be blended with these different settings" it just doesn't work like that. Even worse is that if you enable transparency half your available palettes get assigned to the sub screen and can't be used for anything not being blended for transparency. So if you want just one sprite to be transparent, you have to sacrifice half your available palettes to do it.

SNES transparency limitations honestly make Saturn transparency look reasonable.

>>9878139
The one thing those games lack is a sense of elevation. There's no real hills and dips like you have in the Polygonal examples posted earlier.

>>9878153
Human Grand Prix 3 has hills.

>>9878156
Not to the same degree that the previous examples showed. All it's doing is just subtly tilting the plane. It's so subtle you could easily not even notice it's happening. You don't get the real sense of having a hill curve up, crest the top, and go down it like you do in the Genesis examples. Heck even Outrun and Road Rash do hills better.

>>9878172
Outrun and Road Rash don't run at 60FPS and are more limited in their track design because of the method used for the graphics.

>>9878150
It also merits mentioning, that on a CRT, using a composite connection, as was contemporarily standard, pixel column strips on the Mega Drive in it's higher resolution 320 mode, or the PC Engine in it's 320 or 512 modes, will be blended and appear fully transparent, this trick can be used anywhere without limits, but is wholly impossible on the SNES, unless you want to use the 512 mode and reduce you're screen colours to a mere 16, a compromise that most would agree is not worthwhile. Additionally, VDP debug test register reverse engineering has discovered the capability to do full alpha transparency in hardware. So, in a twist of irony, the Mega Drive and PC Engine actually have more flexible "transparency" support than the SNES, quite funny how yet again the SNES hardware features are shown up by virtue of it's competitors merely having much faster CPU's and higher resolutions.

>>9878194
>Additionally, VDP debug test register reverse engineering has discovered the capability to do full alpha transparency in hardware.
I ought to have elaborated on this, the effect can be seen blending the two layers in Titan's excellent Overdrive 2 demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWVmPtr9O0g
They have written about how it works here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ST9GbFfPnIjLT5loytFCm3pB0kWQ1Oe34DCBBV8saY8/pub

>>9878038
fzero better than both

>>9878178
>Outrun and Road Rash don't run at 60FPS
Sure, but the way they work is also more demanding overall. It's not like you can't do something like a Mode 7 racer on the Genesis. Sure SNES can do it at 60fps and higher resolution, but Genesis an replicate a similar gameplay experience with CPU brute force:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NoXtdR2c0g
>are more limited in their track design because of the method used for the graphics.
That I'm going to call BS on. There's plenty of racing games on multiple systems that do graphics in that way and have pretty complex track designs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53K1WTIfhnI

And again, the 3D engines mentioned here >>9878119 also do hills better and have pretty complex tracks. Overall I find them far more imrpessive than a run of the mill Mode 7 racer.

>>9878204
>it's yet another half resolution, half framerate, totally incomplete proof of concept demo

>>9878208
>Homebrew demos don't count in a thread discussing the pros and cons of a system's hardware from a homebrew perspective.
What kind of retarded logic is that?

>>9878204
>Genesis an replicate a similar gameplay experience with CPU brute force
A BIG advantage here as well, is that the Mega Drive is capable of doing vertical split screen, which is wholly impossible to achieve on the SNES with mode 7, which cannot even perform this game in multiplayer whatsoever thanks the various constraints on it's hardware mode 7. Yet another instance of the Mega Drive's 3 TIMES faster CPU running circles around SNES hardware effects, and enabling games to be improved.

>>9878209
The logic comes from the demo being incomparable to a video game. If you paid money and got that trash you'd feel beyond ripped off.

>>9878213
But that's not what were discussing here. We're discussing the pros and cons of the hardware and what you can do with it from a homebrew dev's perspective. How retarded are you that after 315 posts in this thread you still haven't realized what the actual topic is about?

>>9878216
I guess from a homebrew developer perspective you too can create a proof of concept demo that gets spammed nonstop by one autist years after you abandon it.

>>9878219
Again, not really the point of this thread. The discussion is what are the pros and cons of the hardware, what is it capable of, what are it's limitations, and how thats impact your overall game design.

The point of something like the G-Zero demo is that it shows even without Mode 7 hardware you can still do a game like F-Zero to an acceptable level of performance with CPU brute force alone.

>>9878216
he's kind of right. tech demos like that are cool but it's clear the genesis can't do mode 7 in any way that's meaningful to gaming

>>9878225
>The point of something like the G-Zero demo is that it shows even without Mode 7 hardware you can still do a game like F-Zero to an acceptable level of performance with CPU brute force alone.
It demonstrates the opposite actually. Even with what can only be considered the absolute bare minimum level of gameplay it struggles to reach 30FPS while also running in slowmotion. It's pathetic compared to the game its impersonating, the exact opposite of what you would want to show people to prove your console was superior in the 90s.

>>9875170
so, dread had a new renderer with support for arbitrary floor and ceiling height nearly complete from what I understand, but the author got hired by a big game company, and has far less time to work on it now, plus they don't want him to work on a game project with a kickstarter so he has to do it by himself now.
It's sad because his engine was very good motivation and a good target to aim for.

However, I'm still catching up. I just added sfx and map triggers to my engine, adding key items and enemy AI next.


>>9875165
It's not a raycasting engine any more than doom is. They do both full polygon (quads) transformation and projection and clipping (versus raycasting which determines the closest polygon intersection per (usually) screen column). You can join the dread discord and ask the author for a full explanation of everything in the engine if you'd like.

>>9878229
>It's pathetic compared to the game its impersonating
Having multiplayer at all makes it actually far better from a playability standpoint than the game it is impersonating.

>>9878234
Yeah the barely functional proof of concept worth a "hey that's neat" at most was definitely improved having another person to look at it for all of five seconds.

>>9874489
This game looks so cool but its too bad about some of its issues it has including the development behind the game being a mess. Looks like it could have been the best beat 'em up on the console if only things ended up going right. That mustache guy is quite the odd funny character. I think his name was the fonz lol

>>9878236
Stay mad, the SNES version of F-Zero will NEVER have multiplayer, because it is technically impossible with it's bottlenecked and constrained hardware effects, and the 1/3 speed CPU has no hope of doing such a thing in software.

>>9878239
>CPU has no hope of doing such a thing in software
Much like the Genesis clearly.

>>9878229
> show people to prove your console was superior in the 90s.
Again this shows you're the raging fanboy who can't understand what this discussion is about. It's not about proving what console was superior in the 90s. It's simply discussing what the hardware is capable of and what it's hard limits are. It's also touching on how that impacts the kind of games developers want to make on these systems and what sacrifices would need to be made overall.

>>9878242
If a steady 30 FPS with multiplayer is too "slow" for you, just imagine how pathetic and laughable an SNES attempt at the same would be. F-Zero is doomed to languish as a single player game, such a pity.

>>9875225
always hated that dolphin sega game. where are you going to swim to? it's fookin stupid mate

>>9878230
also, honestly dread is quite a bit more impressive than doom in terms of tech.

It does most of the same tricks as doom, plus a lot of things doom doesn't do*, but it's running on far slower target hardware (7MHz 68000 vs ~40MHz 486s w/ cache, even if they were at the same clock speed, the 68000 would be at best 1/4 the overall performance).


* It uses BSPs like doom, but has a separate collision BSP, like quake, and a super fancy pvs algorithm, that takes advantage of the fact that it's not arbitrary 3D to do full occlusion sorting, so it's even more efficient than quake's.

It also has to work against the fact that the amiga is bitplane based, and does multi-pass planar to chunky conversion.
It has self-modifying code in the texture filling routine (which also abuses a 68k stack pointer alignment quirk) , as well as in the quad rasterization routines for the variable height renderer (of which there is one generated routine for each possible portal type)
Basically everything in the dread engine is optimized to demoscene level, it's nuts.

And some of the texture work looks damn good, especially considering the color restrictions (see pic)

I would love to see a snes fps with the same level of absurd optimization.

>>9878242
In your deluded fantasies, granted.

>>9878250
filtered

>>9875354
>When you look at the data in something like Crystal Tile you see this exact behavior as seen in this shot from Final Fantasy 4.

is this program free? i want to makw pixel art

>>9878248
You have an interesting definition of "steady". Also where is the one video demonstrating the split screen? I know you have it bookmarked.
>>9878249
>It's simply discussing what the hardware is capable of and what it's hard limits are
By using totally incomplete non games as demonstrations?

>>9878258
are you trying to swim through the filter? where is your dumb dolphin swimming too?

>>9878252
>I would love to see a snes fps with the same level of absurd optimization.
To laugh at? The SNES could never come remotely close. Consider the following:
>1/3 speed CPU
>Far slower DMA
>No CPU multiply or divide
>Only 8 kbs RAM freely available, all other RAM exists only in separate banks that must be switched to
>Planar pixel data, much harder for software rendering with no blitter help
These were issues that, indeed, held back even the Super FX games, which caused them to run at a mere 5 to 7 FPS despite the 20 mhz FX chip helping. Games like this will simply never be accomplished to anywhere near the same proficiency on the SNES, and anyone attempting to do so would be wasting their time and energy, and should instead be working with the more performant hardwares of the era.

>>9878270
Meanwhile the more "performant" hardware from the era trying to recreate F-Zero: >>9878263

>>9878270
I don't really care because i'm not some ridiculous genesis fanboy. I just like working with the system. Seeing what the snes could do pushed to it's limits would be interesting.

the snes does have multiply and divide hardware, it's just not in the cpu itself. I'll admit that the cpu speed, and bit-planed based VRAM will be a challenge to work around, but let's not pretend that making an fps on genesis is easy either. I spent like two months figuring out how to efficiently DMA my framebuffer to VRAM.

>>9878275
Pretty sad that it has no multiplayer, and, indeed, cannot EVER have multiplayer, thanks the hardware limitations, alas, the promising Mega Drive port looks to be well on it's way to fixing that glaring flaw and improving the game.

>>9878263
>By using totally incomplete non games as demonstrations?
It runs on the actual hardware doesn't it? It's a proof of concept that the effect can be done.

Again do you have any idea how silly you look complaining about homebrew demos being used to show what can be done on these systems in a thread discussing the capabilities of these systems from a homebrew perspective?

>>9878281
That techdemo was abandoned years ago, like all techdemos/homebrew "ports". Did the author delete the video of the split screen or something?
>>9878284
>It's a proof of concept that the effect can be done
In a stripped down environment with little to no gameplay and with massive limitations even without the actual gameplay being added.

>>9878279
>Seeing what the snes could do pushed to it's limits would be interesting.
We already saw that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbRiWuCIELw
Here is with an FX chip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTKGsq5Oa4
And, here is a modern attempt at the end of this demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC9hjhiJ1DI
Similarly, running very poorly, very blocky, and that is even with a very basic Wolfenstein style engine. Yawn and no thank you. More performant 16-bit hardwares such as the Mega Drive and Amiga have shown far more promise with doing these engines.

>>9878301
>running very poorly, very blocky
Sounds like the Genesis trying to recreate mode 7.

>>9878301
>We already saw that.

Nah, these aren't close to the amount of optimization put into something like dread. That last bit in the demo is a raycaster, which is slower than how dread works.

>>9878293
>That techdemo was abandoned years ago, like all techdemos/homebrew "ports"
You do realize the author lives in Venezuela right? Did it ever occur to you that the current level of shit going on in that country might be why his projects came to an abrupt halt? He's only recently just started to get back into them and his focus has been more on the Starfox one.
>In a stripped down environment with little to no gameplay and with massive limitations even without the actual gameplay being added.
It has the mode 7 track with collision, player handling, etc. All it's really missing is the AI cars and the logic to keep track of laps and what not. Seems more than enough to use as a proof of concept for what the hardware can do.
>>9878279
>I don't really care because i'm not some ridiculous genesis fanboy.
Again, this shows you're not really getting what's being discussed here. This isn't intended to be a fanboy war, it's just addressing what questions were asked about what makes the SNES more difficult to work with and why it has less homebrew.
>the snes does have multiply and divide hardware, it's just not in the cpu itself.
As far as I understand it is in the CPU itself, it's just not used as actual instructions. You write to specific registers and then wait or try to do additional work until the result is ready. But like most CPUs of this era it's not really all that fast or great so you end up using typical bit shfiting techniques to do it faster.
>but let's not pretend that making an fps on genesis is easy either.
No one is saying that is easy. Doing something like that is very impressive. The point being made here with the SNES challenges is that it impacts doing basic shit like drawing a decent amount of sprites on screen for something like a Beat'em up or action game.

>>9878309
"Optimization" is not a magical cure for the many flaws and deficiencies of the SNES hardware. As a baseline, these efforts show that the ceiling for what is possible on the SNES is sadly lacking compared to it's competitors, and attempts to try to fight those limits would be fruitless wastes of energy. Thankfully, most developers seem to realise this and choose to avoid the bottlenecked, crippled SNES.

>>9878325
>You do realize the author lives in Venezuela right? Did it ever occur to you that the current level of shit going on in that country might be why his projects came to an abrupt halt?
Homebrew developers could be living under the best of circumstances and still never complete their ghetto ports.
>It has the mode 7 track with collision, player handling, etc. All it's really missing is the AI cars and the logic to keep track of laps and what not
It has one very basic track with one racer running at half the framerate, speed and resolution. Can you imagine it trying to run fire field with the AI racers and the same physics as the original?

>>9878293
>No, I don't care that the Genesis CPU can do computations the SNES needed extra hardware for.
>No, I don't care that hobbyists aren't professional developers.
>No, I don't care about program creation unless it directly makes my game collection look super cool and sweet.
We get it, you like pretty games. They have to start somewhere, though.

>>9878340
Excuses, excuses.
>We get it, you like pretty games
I like games, them being pretty is a bonus. What I'm not particularly interested in is proof of concept demos. That's probably the least interesting homebrew out there.

>>9878337
>Homebrew developers could be living under the best of circumstances and still never complete their ghetto ports.
Some maybe, but this one is a pretty extreme circumstance wouldn't you agree? I'm pretty sure when living in a communist shithole when everything falls apart, homebrew Genesis projects are put on the lowest priority levels.

And again, he has recently started to be more active again as evidenced by the progress that's been being made again with the Starfox Demo.
> Can you imagine it trying to run fire field with the AI racers and the same physics as the original?
There's nothing really special going on with the other tracks what would make the mode 7 effect more difficult to do. Now adding AI racers might have an impact, but there may also be room for improvement and optimizations, as we've been seeing with the Starfox demo.
>>9878346
> What I'm not particularly interested in is proof of concept demos. That's probably the least interesting homebrew out there.
All homebrew games originally start out as a proof of concept demo. That's what a proof of concept is for, to see if your conceptual idea is possible to see if it's worth pursuing further.

>>9878325
>No one is saying that is easy. Doing something like that is very impressive. The point being made here with the SNES challenges is that it impacts doing basic shit like drawing a decent amount of sprites on screen for something like a Beat'em up or action game.

I understand, I'm just saying that, as a dev, it would be interesting to see if someone got really dedicated to making the most advanced fps possible on a snes. People make more of the cpu speed difference than there really is. Now, there are fewer registers, and a smaller bus, but most instructions execute faster than on a 68000, and you can get away with doing a lot of things with just byte instructions. I imagine a really clever person could beat my math code with a 65c816, but yes, it would be trickier to make it "fast enough".

There are chunky->planar tricks you could get from the amiga community, but that would likely be the bottleneck of the whole thing.

>You write to specific registers and then wait or try to do additional work until the result is ready.

This can actually be a benefit, if you can do other work while waiting for the results.


>>9878329
But plenty of genesis homebrew is made specifically to try to make something despite strict hardware limitations. That describes my engine perfectly, a "fruitless" struggle against resource limits.

>>9878348
>There's nothing really special going on with the other tracks what would make the mode 7 effect more difficult to do
Except them being way more complex and having hazards and jumps.
>to see if your conceptual idea is possible to see if it's worth pursuing further
It's not worth pursuing further if its already running this poorly.

>>9878349
> People make more of the cpu speed difference than there really is.
This I agree with. I think when people have actually done decent comparisons the gap in speed comes down to maybe 1.25x to 1.5x faster depending on what you're doing? The bigger issues with the SNES I think are all the weird bottlenecks and limitations the PPU has when it comes to how it handles sprites, writing data to VRAM during active display, etc. There's a lot of really odd and cumbersome limitations that just aren't there on the other systems.
>This can actually be a benefit, if you can do other work while waiting for the results.
True, though if it still ends up being significantly slower than doing it with bitshifting techniques then it still might not be worth it.

>>9878354
>Except them being way more complex and having hazards and jumps.
At the end of the day it's still just effectively a bitmap/tilemap that's being rotated. If you can do it with one bitmap/tilemap there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it with another.
>It's not worth pursuing further if its already running this poorly.
Running at close to 30fps while still having room for optimizations I'd say is worth pursuing.

Honestly it's pretty clear homebrew pisses you off because you see it as a threat to your favorite childhood console. Maybe you should just leave this thread and find something better to do? It will probably be better for your mental health in the long run.

>>9878349
>People make more of the cpu speed difference than there really is.
On the contrary, in fact, people do not make enough of the chasmic gap in CPU performance, not only is the CPU clocked merely 1/3 the speed, but it is also severely lacking in registers, merely 3 that are 16 bits wide, compared the wholly 16 on the 68000 which are 32 bits wide, this means far more work can be done on the Mega Drive using registers as cache, which is important in considering the speed differences, as the Mega Drive is capable of doing much of it's math using only inter register operations, which operate at a mere 4 cycles, this is compared the SNES which must continually access memory in order to do basic arithmetics and memory movement, which takes anywhere from 5 to 8 cycles, so, not only is the clock speed far superior on the 68000, but the performance is as well, this is what allows Mega Drive games to commonly run utter circles around the SNES.

>>9878360
>Honestly it's pretty clear homebrew pisses you off because you see it as a threat to your favorite childhood console. Maybe you should just leave this thread and find something better to do? It will probably be better for your mental health in the long run
That's rich coming from the guy who spends hours upon hours pretending to be an expert level programmer to seethe about Super Nintendo using abandoned demos made by other people.

>>9874953
Apparently the Macintosh engineers lost their shit when they found out the GS/OS team used their GUI and had it in full color.

>>9878371
The only one seething here is you. You're literally complaining about homebrew demos being used to show, of all things, what kind of homebrew games can be created on these systems.

If you just want a typical console war to compare retail games then go either make your own thread or post in one of the multiple other ones already active on this board.

>>9878376
>You're literally complaining about homebrew demos being used to show, of all things, what kind of homebrew games can be created on these systems.
Barely functional techdemos are not games and are not good examples of games.

>>9878380
>Barely functional techdemos are not games and are not good examples of games.
But that's not what they're being used for. They're not being used to say "This is a 1:1 equivalent of X game on Y system." they're being used to show "This kind of effect can be done on this system allowing you to do possibly do this kind of game."

>>9878381
>This kind of effect can be done on this system allowing you to do possibly do this kind of game
If your attempt at demonstrating this is barely functional with only the bare minimum of gameplay implemented then you have demonstrated the opposite.

>>9878385
>If your attempt at demonstrating this is barely functional with only the bare minimum of gameplay implemented then you have demonstrated the opposite.
If it was running in the single digits sure, but it's not. It's running at close to 30fps. There were Sega CD games that did those kind of effects running at 15-20fps and people found them to be perfectly playable.

>>9878346
>No I don't care how games are developed, I just want to play them
Then go do that. Are you lost?

>>9878386
>There were Sega CD games that did those kind of effects running at 15-20fps and people found them to be perfectly playable
Really puts into perspective how impressive mode 7 is when a hardware addon can't even touch it.

>>9878396
It also puts into perspective what level of performance people will deem as acceptable for such a game.

>>9878396
if the sega cd had it's own video output, it would definitely match the performance, but it's hampered by having to transfer everything back to the genesis's vram. kinda sad, because the chip in there will never really be fully exploited as a result.

>>9877829
nta, but if you can give an example (code) of something that "don't seem to work right on SNES" it'd be a lot easier for someone to know if they'd run into it before. Personally I never have.

>>9877792
Because im going to make coomer games so Im focusing on nuances of pixel art first. Realistically I'll probably use RPGmaker or Godot, but I find the subject of homebrew fascinating. Im not arguing about anything Im genuinely curious about the pros and cons of each system. you shouldnt project your inability to accomplish things on others anon

>>9877619
>>9877787
>>9877825
Specially when you consider this.

>MK1 on SNES
looks great, sounds OK, Plays like SHIT (actual lag), also censored

>MK1 on Genny
Looks like shit, Sounds tolerable, Plays alright unless you dont have the 6 button controller, also code to decensor

>MK1 on Sega CD
mostly same as Genny, but with full animation frames more or less, has arcade music but in wrong order and horrible loading, also shitty FMV intro shows footage of the snes port LOL

Now came up the 180

>MK2 on SNES
Looks great, sounds good, plays great, uncensored, secret brute strenght and 30 continue codes, WELL DONE!

>MK2 on Genny
Looks like shit, sounds like shit, plays mediocre if you still have no 6B controller, feels like an unfinished beta, Idles have full frames but the rest is only half frames or less, and might as well be!

>MK2 on 32x
Looks like a mess, better sprites, but mostly same backgrounds as Genny, same shitty sound, YOU NEED THE 6B CONTROLLER!, just barely an upgrade of the Beta-esque Genny port, oh and they couldnt even add the missing animation frames except for very few, what a joke!, oh and did i mention 32x SUCKS!?

Dont even get me started on the 32-bit CD ports, and btw, for all of those who tough the original MK1 genny port is as good as it could looked, WRONG, the reason why it looked like shit, its because it was made that way, case in point, Arcade Edition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88nUofMrQwA&ab_channel=VCDECIDE

>>9878569
>im going to make coomer games so Im focusing on nuances of pixel art first
Then you will have to use an existing game engine which makes the entire platform discussion moot.
You want to have many players = the most widespread platform (PC and Android) = the most widespread emulator = PPSSPP (it has a capable and easy to use debugger, too). On the hardware side all you need is a PSP, a PC and a USB cable. The software side of PSP scene is well documented and easy to use. The PSP is not retro though, but not for long.

>I find the subject of homebrew fascinating
For the homebrew (other than unlicensed games) to be of any real use you'll need external storage, preferably with network.

>>9878679
I think the platform matters in a commercial sense, because collectors for snes and psx would be more likely to purchase jrpg style games. I do think that affinity sorrow proves that if a dev made an rpg for a system that wasnt known for it, there could also be sucess.
Looking at everything from a business level, I think homebrew could be a very profitable venture because people that are retro game collectors tend to have a disposable income, and would be more likely to contribute to kickstarter projects and homebrew dev. Of course the projects would have to be of a certain level of quality.

>>9878329
holy fuck we get it lmao, this insane gaslighting ("bro we're just discussing the hardware") slingshotting right to rabid console war faggotry is giving me whiplash

>>9878582
>MK2 on SNES plays great
It's known to be a slower version
>oh and did i mention I'M BIASED!?
Tacitly.

>>9879179
>It's known to be a slower version
You just made that up right now.

>>9878582
These assertions that the SNES port of Mortal Kombat 2 "is better" are ludicrous, when it is a game that suffers from slower gameplay, input lags, dropped inputs, extremely dumbed down AI's, and terrible collision detection. The Mega Drive version may not be "a looker", but it plays far better, and that is the only metric that matters.

>>9879202
>when it is a game that suffers from slower gameplay, input lags, dropped inputs, extremely dumbed down AI's, and terrible collision detection
All lies.

So should I just tie any future vr thread I make to snes vs genesis? Seems like a guaranteed 400 posts no matter what. I’ll just title it something like everyone post your favorite Atari game (also snes is better than genesis)

Bros, honest question……

Will AI lead to a golden age of 16 bit homebrew and romhacks? Could it conceivably accelerate the rate at which someone produced code, assets, level design, etc.?

Not necessarily today, but in 3,5, or 10 years ?

>>9879309
I swear I was just thinking about this, like what if we broke down the code of all the 16 bit era games and fed it to an ai and saw what it doat back out

>>9879187
>>9879220
>If I refuse to accept the fact, it ceases to be a fact!

>>9879348
Things you make up on the spot about games that millions have played are not facts and nobody is going to fall for it.

>>9879357
I'm not the only one saying it, but keep deluding yourself. You're only robbing yourself of the superior experience

>>9879369
>I'm not the only one saying it
Your headmates don't count.

>>9879371
Exist*. Someone agreed in this very thread and you called them a liar too, presumably making the assumption you were still talking to me. Rent free

>>9879398
There's two mentally ill spergs lying about a port of a video game from 30 years ago. Goodie.

Ban all console warriors, this is so sad and it was a good thread until the retards arrived.

>>9879406
See
>>9879348

>>9879408
Pointing out the technical flaws and deficiencies of the SNES hardware is not "console warring".

>>9879410
You should see a therapist.

>>9879416
You've tacitly conceded.

>>9879414
This is still a console war thread, it's just not about specs or games but rather homebrew accessibility. As you can see in the thread, most retards didn't understand and thought talking about games rather than programming indicated anything other than insecure validation seeking.

>1780 SNES games
>869 Mega Drive games
You tell me.

>>9878568
Ok. Here is the problem i am having with the X register: Why won't this assemble?

>>9879309
Wouldn't be surprised to see a game maker type ai where you feed it what you want and it can spit out a working rom for you. The more info you give it the better the quality

>>9879506
The compiler is defaulting to 8bit addresses (zero-page). You need to tell it the address is 16bits. Y works because there is no zero-page mode for Y indexing.

>>9879669
ok, there are .8BIT and .16BIT directives, they seem to get this to run, do they just blanket X and Y both? how do the SEP / REP instructions affect these directives?

>>9879669
Anyway, this seems to fix the problem i had. Thank you!
It's not clear to me from the WLA-DX documentation (which i did RTFM) what the REP / SEP flags affect about compilation vs .8BIT and .16BIT. Thanks for clearing that up a bit.

>>9879715
You can also override individual address sizes by appending .B, or .W to the variable name.

SEP and REP don't effect the assembler, they affect the runtime state of the processor.

>>9879495
Two thirds of Genny/MD games are north american titles.