/vr/ - Retro Games

pic is example of a western map

I prefer the japanese maps btw

Japanese games are for children

>>9874510
Western devs are literally a reflection of this quote. That's not even a joke. They're often technically very skilled but they're way more interested in flexing their tech muscles than anything else. That's why a lot of western platformers like Battletoads and Toy Story are practically change genres level to level. If you ask a western dev to just make a platformer and only a platformer "like Mario" they feel hamstrung.

>>9874513
I've always hated that Sonic-type shit in platformers

Japanese devs playtest the controls to the point it feels good to play the games, where control input and visual feedback create an engaging, day I say immersive experience where you can basically transmit your own will through 2 simple button presses. As such, a linear map is better as it works as an obstacle course, the main idea is to accurately time jumps, evade enemies in meaningful ways, ideally you don't want to ever get hit because the game does give you the main tool to avoid this: good controls and polished design.
Western devs are not patient enough in terms of polishing the controls and working that play-visual feedback loop to engage the player with only the gameplay, so they focus on the visuals (maybe) and they make maze levels as to hide the fact the games are not that fun to play. Just navigate this game, find the exit through mindless corridors and rooms and enemies you can barely evade, just tank through it and hope the graphics and music will be interesting enough to carry the experience out.

>>9874521
I think Sonic games did it best because they still felt linear to some extent.

japs like to play through an adventure, while westerners like to be rats in mazeso

>>9874539
Yes, Sonic games are linear though they have usually 2 or 3 different paths you could take: low, mid and top, with top usually having the most reward. At times it can get clusterfucky though (Metropolis, Carnival Night, Sandopolis Act 2) but for the most part it works. But yes they're still linear, you go from left to right.
Sonic CD offers more maze elements through the Time Generator quest.

>>9874513
>pic is example of a western map

Or you could show a map from the Genesis Aladdin.

>>9874510
Japan's attitude is essentially "Obey the path, obey the rules, just obey". Americans don't like to obey.

>>9874551
fuckin europeans man

>>9874539
Yeah Sonic games actually do it right except for CD and Chaotix, the level design in these two is just obnoxious

>>9874510

Maybe the western ones wanted to pack as much content as possible into them?
Mazes are more efficient since you use more tiles.
Japanese developers seemed to be more confident with making games shorter and counting more on repeated playthroughs, providing some kind of incentive like the challenge of the gems in Aladdin.

>>9874525
why weren't western developers patient enough?

>>9874510
Most western devs of the 80s-2000s were inundated in computer gaming, which always lent itself more to slow-paced games. Screen scrolling wasn't always feasible to implement, and things like RPGs, adventure games, etc. have been around since mainframe computers to some extent.
Devs who grew up in this environment usually ended up having a penchant for dungeon crawlers. It didn't always translate well to platformers, where you can only see a small portion of the level at a time and having to draw a map would just ruin the experience. Turrican is based though.

>>9874510
>japanese maps tend to be more linear while western maps are mazes
I'm not sure this is true. I can think of counterexamples:
>Zelda I (pictured)
>Knightmare II
>Goonies II
>Golvellius
>Phantasy Star I and II
>Skies of Arcadia

Have you seen their eyes? They can only see horizontally.

>>9875459
>games were the core gameplay mechanic is exploration have mazes
picrel
>>9874510
>>9874513
>>9874551
good examples. genesis aladin level design feels so much worse.
>>9874525
I think this guy is right. It feels like they start with the mechanics and build around whats fun, interesting, or challenging. Whereas western level design at that point was like this shit looks cool lets throw it in.

>>9875459
You're right, but I think he's talking about sidescrollers mostly, platformers in particular. Of course Japan had metroidvanias and non-linear sidescrollers, but this is more about level design. There are a bunch of Western platformers broken up into levels where the levels are giant vertical mazes.

Western game devs thought "If our levels are too straight-forward, players will just blow through them and it will be a very short game." Japanese game devs thought "I will position this bird enemy right at this point in the jump to make sure the player won't get through this level quickly."

A lot of western games in the 80s/90s sold themselves on how much content they have. The number of rooms, the size in megabits, etc

>>9874510
>japanese maps tend to be more linear while western maps are mazes

bad premise, I doubt it's true

>>9874510
The genetic explanation is that their squinty eyes make it harder for them to see vertically, so they make levels flat and linear.

They were just as capable of making maze levels as american devs and european devs. It just wasn't the norm at that specific time because they were trying to ape arcade platformers, which were indeed very linear, I believe. European and american devs were used to PC games, which used mazes to lengthen their severely memory-restricted computer games.

Im usually not a fan of the western maze platformer style, but Duke Nukem 2 did it perfectly. The levels felt good and intuitive to explore.

>>9877048
Duke 2 had a good mix of lineal and more complex maps

>>9875459
you are the biggest retard in the thread

>>9874510
Japanese games were aimed more specifically at kids, such as with Nintendo's "seal of approval" approach, while the West appeals to more broad demographics.

Honestly, I can't think of great Japanese level design outside of the Mario games. I think of great level design and I think of games like Banjo Kazooie, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Halo, Doom, Turok, Goldeneye, and Half-Life. I mean, what does Japan have to offer in regards to level design when compared to those games? Not much.

>Western devs are not patient enough in terms of polishing the controls and working that play-visual feedback loop to engage the player with only the gameplay, so they focus on the visuals (maybe) and they make maze levels as to hide the fact the games are not that fun to play.
Source: "Just trust me bro, I pulled this directly out of my ass"

Hearing weebs try and rationalize bullshit arguments is always a thrill. Tell me, is that why Donkey Kong Country ended up making Miyamoto jealous? You'd be hard-pressed to find a Japanese game that controls as tight and responsively as Quake or Doom.

>B-B-B-BUT MUH PLATFORMERS
Again, you have games like Earthworm Jim, Comix Zone, and Donkey Kong Country which equal, if not exceed, the many various competitor Japanese games. Having maze-like level design does not "hide" anything. In fact, it would exacerbate a poor control scheme. The fact the levels are as huge and take as long as they do to explore is a testament to how well they control to begin with. You're an idiot.

>>9874510
Worst western game design trope is leap of faith jumps. They're the absolute worst.

>>9879226
Meant to include >>9874525
in my post.

>>9879226
>using "weeb" unironically in 2023
Oh anon.
>Tell me, is that why Donkey Kong Country ended up making Miyamoto jealous?
Hahaha, you still think that fake Miyamoto quote was real?
Donkey Kong Country games are one of the very few exceptions of western platformers actually having good controls. And I suspect being in constant supervision from the japanese at Nintendo had a lot to do with that.
>Again, you have games like Earthworm Jim, Comix Zone, and Donkey Kong Country which equal, if not exceed, the many various competitor Japanese games.
EWJ and Comix Zone do not have excellent controls, and are carried by their visuals, humor/style and music. Comix Zone in particular is actually an adventure game, much in the style of point-and-click adventure games, masquerading as a sort of beat 'em up, except the actual action controls are not notable in any way, the game is good because of its creative comic-style, not because of the gameplay.
>You're an idiot.
I think the same of you, believing fake quotes and unable to come up with any actual argument, instead outdated buzzwords like "weeb". I don't think you fit this board or this site at all.

>>9879226
you're so mature playing your video games, bro.
only mature games for mature gamers, such as yourself.

In short, the Japanese people don’t like to feel confused. When they do, they are more likely to admit it. They are more likely to think the confusion is the fault of the game.

American audiences don’t admit to being confused. We like the challenge. Playtesters of Western games are probably less honest about feeling confused.

>>9874513
That EWJ map looks like a maze when you zoom out, but when you play it, it very much guides you through directly, just adds a bit of vertical movement here and there.

>>9874510
Japanese developers influenced more by Super Mario
Euro devs influenced more by based Turrican

>>9879243
>Hahaha, you still think that fake Miyamoto quote was real?
Quite the opposite. Miyamoto thought it was a great game, and wished he had made it.

>Donkey Kong Country games are one of the very few exceptions of western platformers actually having good controls. And I suspect being in constant supervision from the japanese at Nintendo had a lot to do with that.
Banjo Kazooie, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Rayman, Lode Runner, Crash Bandicoot, Boogerman, Superfrog, Jazz Jackrabbit, The Lost Vikings, Zool, Bio Menace, Alien Carnage, Duke Nukem, Prehistorik, Blackthorne...Oh yea, "one of the very few exceptions." Lmao, cope harder, samurai.

>EWJ and Comix Zone do not have excellent controls, and are carried by their visuals
"This game just kicks ass in every way shape and form! EWJ is simply the coolest character to arrive in a long time. The game has perfect control, awesome voices and a long, fun quest."
~ Electronic Gaming 1994 Issue 63 Page 34

Thanks for admitting you're a revisionist faggot who's arguing in bad faith.

>I think the same of you
I could care less what a retarded weeb thinks of me, especially not one who's so insecure he describes a perfect game like Earthworm Jim "all flash and no substance", lmao.

>>9874551
Aladdin is very linear though, not mazey.
That level in particular is one-way, with dead ends being revealed in a couple of seconds allowing you to get back on the path, and walls everywhere guiding your movements.

>OP is clearly specifically talking about 2D platformers of 4th gen and below
>Some fags here keep bringing up non-platformer games of the era or 5th gen 3D games
Retards

>>9879375
Well you have to use arbitrary limits to make that point, considering the whole concept of a level designer came from the west with FPS.

The west are much better at making levels.

It's all bullshit anyway, the Japs made non-linear games, and the west made linear games. This is a fucking retarded thread with retarded arbitrary limits, and you're a retard for thinking otherwise.

>>9879426
how is it arbitrary?
When somebody thinks of the concept of "levels" and "retro" 2D platformers is easily the first thing that comes to mind and there was a very clear disparity between JP and western made games at the time. You have to be a zoomer to see the OP post and not get the point and default to 3D games instead.

>>9874510
Do you have more than one example of each from different companies and across different console generations to back up your claim, Sir. OP?

>>9879446
See pretty much any Amiga game/port or Eurojank in general.

>>9879375
>>9877159
kek, you're mad because you were called out on attempt to make a shit west vs east thread and they saw through your RACISM thread.
>uhh we were talking about platformers only
In the first place it's weird to say "X always makes maps like this" without specifying you're only talking about platformers.
In the second you're pretending like you weren't already making long posts about your garbage, and the issue really is only platformer-design...but it's all based on a single genre? anyone can tell you're just mad because pointing out it changes in different genres ruins your generalizations.
>yeah, but it's about platformers
doesn't make it any better, the devil level was handpicked, the first level is more linear, and I didn't know sanic-which you're trying to claim super linear, was western.

>>9875459
nice reading comprehension

>>9874510
>genetic explanation
lol
anyway, I have to say I generally prefer how Japanese platformers play, those maze-like european style levels put me to sleep

>>9874552
>Americans don't like to obey.
And games aren't fun without rules. No wonder Amerimutts have a shit country that's collapsing under the weight of their own greed and delusions of "rugged individualism".

t. Amerimutt

Westerners basically didn't know what the fuck they were doing in terms of game design for years. They were like kids who just conclude bigger is better.

>>9879325
>Thanks for admitting you're a revisionist faggot who's arguing in bad faith.
He wasn't talking about historical perception of the games. It doesn't matter what some old magazine said about the game's controls. Personally I think EWJ's controls are fine but the physics and collision leave something to be desired. But "revisionism" is irrelevant to what he's saying and trying to bring that up makes you look obsessed with muh 90s mags rather than his actual point.

>>9879325
>Quite the opposite. Miyamoto thought it was a great game, and wished he had made it.
Is there any source to Miyamoto saying he wish he made it? He helped make the game anyway, he was the main advisor for Rare. If there's no source of Miyamoto actually saying "yeah, I'm jealous of Rare" it's all fanfiction, like it always mostly is with the whole Miaymoto vs DKC meme.
>Banjo Kazooie, Conker's Bad Fur Day
3D platformers, not 2D. They're good, though mechanically not as complex as SM64. Conker also changes genres often.
>Rayman
Similar to other pretty looking euro games, like Flink or Lomax, well this one is a little better than those gameplay-wise, but still not a total finesse, still has that janky western style polish of the hitboxes and the tileset detection.
>Lode Runner
are you for real? Lode Runner doesn't have a jump button.
>Crash
3D (albeit corridor style) and the side-scroll segments are rather bland, again sketchy hitboxes, no real use of any momentum whatsoever, lazy level design.
>Boogerman, Superfrog, Jazz Jackrabbit
kek
>The Lost Vikings
This one is cool, but more of a puzzle game. It's one of a kind I like it but not really a pure platformer.
>Zool
kok
>Bio Menace, Alien Carnage, Duke Nukem, Prehistorik
based western kusoludo, I like some of those on a nostalgic level but they're not quality sidescrollers m8
>Blackthorne
The cinematic genre is westerner, that's fine. Japan has a few good ones of those too, though.
>~ Electronic Gaming 1994 Issue 63 Page 34
lol reviewers. Anyway yeah I don't think people play EWJ because they love the mechanics and want to "get good" at it, they play EWJ because of the cool animations, the humor, the great aesthetic and music. No EWJ is "perfect", but they're classics, especially 1 and 2. No need to be mad at me dude, just accept westerners are better at other genres, not platformers or 2D action except for golden age arcade gaming.

>>9874510
Not true. Japanese level design can be brutal and they usually had to ease it up for the American kiddos.