/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9824091
Windwaker would be good without the sea and a smaller map

>>9824091
I'm a 25 year old third worlder who didn't have any access to gaming mags and all that other stuff. Was Sunshine also hated back in the days? I thought it was a pretty good game. It's way worse than 64 but in my opinion it's still better than literally any gen 6 platformer except for Rayman 3 and maybe Sonic Adventure 1

>>9824096
I enjoyed windwaker and its sea. The fast sail in the hd remake felt like it broke a core gameplay aspect.

Schizo making the same threads every week. Why?

>>9824091
They should have just called it the FilterCube probably

>>9824091
better question is why was there just the one mario on gamecube?
zelda got twilight princess by mario got like 20 party/sports games but just mario sunshine and even that is more like a side mario now anyways

>>9824091
my theory is they took the employees on some kind of hawaiian vacation after N64 and they came back obsessed with islands or something. even the processor was named flipper
also I think they took note of people loving wet/dry world and turned it into isle delphino
windwaker is the worst game I've ever played and yet I have to hang onto it just to boot GBI

Maybe Miyamoto felt that trying to top SM64 and OoT was pointless and so just went for something completely different. I would have loved to have a GC Mario like SM64 too, but I think that would not be a bad reason, and it seems like a Miyamoto thing to do.

>>9824102
>Was Sunshine also hated back in the days? I thought it was a pretty good game.
It's not hated nowadays either, many people consider it their favorite Mario game. There are just some obsessed auties on this board who keep making the same threads for some reason. SM64 attracts a lot of autists and they literally cannot handle others liking stuff they don't like. It's weird.

>>9824220
>core gameplay aspect
setting up wind direction and waiting?

>>9824236
Mario Sunshine is definitely mainline. What do you mean?

>>9824102
Its really hard to say because the internet was in its infancy. It got decent reviews but was generally considered to be worse than 64. People didnt really like fludd or the vacation idea.

That being said the negative online discourse over the gamecube was huge at the time so people on forums despised everything flagship title on the system except Melee. But those people werent really indicative of the general gaming populace and a lot of them probably didnt actually own a Gamecube.

I think the kids who actually had a gamecube really liked its flagships though from talking to them, and seeing 20 years later people talk positively about the gamecube confirms it for me.

>>9824413
i mean it's a gimmick game with a magical water blasting back pack vs every other mario mainline game

and it takes place while he's vacation in different location like a tourist
it's a side adventure as much as golf or baseball or soccer was

>>9824441
Possibly the dumbest opinion I've seen on /vr/

>>9824450
there's no way that's true
but what makes it a mainline title?

>>9824102
After a week or two it was known as a "don't buy it, rent it" type of game.
I think it's insane that people still like it.

>>9824441
By that logic Mario Galaxy and Odyssey are weird spin off games because of the gimmicks.

>>9824517
Not him but you're an obsessive retard.

>>9824091
Because there was no creative passion for a Mario or Zelda. 2D Mario/Zelda were mastered on the SNES, 3D Mario/Zelda on the N64. There was nowhere to go with it. Instead of a good Mario and Zelda game, you got Pikmin and Metroid Prime.

You guys are retarded

>>9824091

The N64 games were just the SNES games re-imagined for 3D

For the Gamecube they couldn't just do that again, so they had to come up with some gimmicky ideas.

I actually like Wind Waker but Sunshine can fuck off

>>9824091
It was the era of video game padding.
mario had blue coins
zelda had triforce quest
metroid had chozo artifacts

>>9824091
Overall the biggest thing was time constraints: Both Sunshine and Wind Waker suffered from them leading to a bunch of content getting cut. Sunshine in particular seems to have had a somewhat tortured development based on the sheer amount of content on TCRF. There's even evidence that Pinna Park was intended to be a second hub world rather than a stage in itself.
I liked the more grounded setting though. It was neat having details like seeing one region of the island from another.

>>9825263
nintendo was also being very lazy, basically rehashing n64 tier designs on next gen consoles when everyone else was moving past it and the late n64 games were telltale that they wouldn't cut it anymore.

Phantasy Star Online Episode I & II was the best game on the Gamecube.

>>9824091
>"I almost feel like there’s still no game more difficult than it. Every time I try to play it I end up getting 'Game Over' a few too many times and giving up partway through. Certainly after playing the original Zelda for the first time, I didn’t ever think that I wanted to make a game like that."

>>9825332
If that's what he thinks of 1 I wonder what he thinks of 2

>>9824740
This. You don't just get iconic masterpieces for every big franchise on every new gen console just because

Do you guys think Nintendo views sunshine as a black mark? Just saw the Mario movie and this thread made me realize I didn’t catch any sunshine references, and the only time they’ve rereleased sunshine it was in that collection for switch that they delisted.

>>9824091
>have a weird obsession with water
I enjoy that. I love ships, islands, tropical settings and shit like that.

>>9825332
Zelda 1 is imbalanced in that you start off pretty vulnerable and weak, enemy patterns are somewhat unforgiving, and actual movement and combat controls leave a lot to be desired.
Modern gaming does a lot of sign-posting and subtle guiding of player journeys to curb discouragement; lead them to where they should start early on. This is something sorely lacking in Zelda 1, you're dropped in the middle of a wide and open map, with no indication of points of interest to pursue. The first dungeon is situated pretty far away and has dozens of enemies on the path towards it.

Compare that to Super Mario Bros, where 1-1 is designed to let the player get familiar with the controls, and teaches them the rules where the first goomba is likely to kill you, but then you learn to jump over, or even on it. Granted it's a very linear game where you can only progress forward.

Super Mario Sunshine is the best Mario game. People hate it here because
1. It's not SM64.
2. It's too hard for them, SM64 is babby tier difficulty compared to Sunshine.
3. They're zoomers who missed out on the GameCube era so they parrot Vtuber opinions about 64 being the greatest invention since agriculture.

If you dislike Sunshine you lack a soul and are quite possibly mentally ill.

Sunshine is the GOAT Super Mario game what are you on about OP?

>>9825491
>add a lot of Sunshine content in the new Smash game including a great remix of Delfino theme
>rerelease the game on Switch
>black mark because it's not referenced in a cringy tiktok tier Hollywood movie
Zoomer please leave

>>9825589
>>9825598
>>9825627
>Europeans wake up with superior taste
Based

I was born in the 80s and my generation knows that Sunshine was trash. You can't even imagine how disappointing it was back in 2002. Nobody cared about it.

>>9824309
The GBA Pokemon games from that time had an island/sea theme as well.

There was definitely a 'summer at the beach' vibe going on at Nintendo at the time. I actually quite liked it.

>>9824102
I do agree with you on this. The only issue was the pachinko level and sort of the weird difficulty spike in some spots otherwise it was really great.

>>9824091
1. The N64 had a game shortage and Ocarina of Time, for example, had huge delays which almost killed them.
2. Sony kicked their arses with the PlayStation and its massive library produced by third party developers including many that had abandoned Nintendo due the the market penetration of PlayStation and the affordability of publishing CDs over carts.
3. Corollary to the above, with the NES and SNES, Nintendo could take their time with games and rely on third parties to fill in gaps in the release schedule, but the N64 taught them they couldn't do this any more.
4. In the previous era, they were competing with Sony, a huge company, in the GameCube era, they were also competing with Microsoft, one of the largest companies n the world, so they were bracing for two big companies drawing all the third party support and having to rely on their own titles.
5. Iwata took over Nintendo after the launch of the GameCube, so there was some instability when this occurred as they changed direction.
6. They basically truncated their previously super long development cycles for their main titles (Zelda, Mario, Mario Kart) so that they could avoid gaps in their release schedule. They also started releasing smaller games like Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion, while trying to leverage third parties to work on Nintendo franchises, like Namco with Star Fox, Sega with F-Zero, but the quality control on third party development of their properties wasn't quite there.

>>9824318
>Maybe Miyamoto felt that trying to top SM64 and OoT was pointless and so just went for something completely different.
SMS and WW are not "completely different" from their predecessors in terms of game mechanics. It's still the same basic gameplay but with some gimmicks attached that a lot of people disliked. Now Mario has a jetpack that he can spray shit with. Now Link has to sail around between dungeons instead of running or riding a horse. Besides that you're doing the same thing you did on N64.

>>9824309
A lot of devs were making tropical-set games at that time, not just Nintendo. SEGA did it earlier with Sonic Adventure, Square did it with games like FFX and Kingdom Hearts, Naughty Dog did it with Jak and Daxter, you had games like Far Cry on the PC. It was most likely because developers wanted to show off their new water rendering capabilities with advances in hardware, and a tropical setting was the most obvious way to do that.
>>9825707
Gen 3 was the first time Junichi Masuda was game director for a whole new region since Tajiri already had done what he wanted with the series after Gen 2 and stepped into a hands-off executive role. When coming up with an idea for which part of Japan he wanted this new region based on, he chose Kyushu, where he and his family spent their summer vacations (his parents were born there).

>>9825516
>enemy patterns are somewhat unforgiving
>octoroks
Am I in the presence of Eiji Aonuma? Should I kneel?

>>9825332
What the fuck was Miyamoto thinking when he put this retard in charge of the series?

>>9824091
>instead of expanding majora's mask day system with weeks and npcs with their schedules[...]
You know, now that I think about it...what would the 2nd N64 Mario title have been like?
The closest analogue I can think of is how Banjo Kazooie/Spyro the Dragon exchanged the world and mission select aspect for a world and objectives/checklist aspect.
Then you also have Banjo-Tooie further pushing the limits by having the worlds not only interconnect with each other, but having separate cause/effect actions on world interactions
>use the train to take the dinosaur out of the circus back to its home
>purify the lagoon pool in the water level by switching the faucet off at the factory level -> drop the ice cube from the cloud level to the lava level -> open the switch in the lava level back to the water level.
I suppose the various caps in SM64 would be obvious analogues to mask from MM, but rather than one off power stars, would add to mario's movepool like the vanish cap letting you interact with other invisible objects and then making you platform by quickly switching between tangible and intangible objects.
The N64 disk drive was weird, but it gave us the expansion kit for F-Zero X which is pretty cool

>>9824091
Both of those games are great in their own right and you're only salty because you wanted more of the same.

>>9826386
>purify the lagoon pool in the water level by switching the faucet off at the factory level -> drop the ice cube from the cloud level to the lava level -> open the switch in the lava level back to the water level.
>All this for 1 (one) jiggy
DK64 and Tooie are what killed platformers for a good while

>take mario 64 engine
>update graphics
>add more playable characters
>new levels
>branching paths and secrets
Literally all they had to do. But no we got Mario Sunshine lmao

>>9826449
filtered

>>9826503
that's Sony-tier lazy rehash game design, Nintendo are innovators and want to try new things

>>9826607
You're pretentious, why don't you try new things like eating shit

>>9826616
No need for the hostility, there are plenty of devs churning out samey nonsense for you to enjoy, the rest of us will enjoy Nintendo's creativity with their IPs

>>9824441
Does it bother you too how the fludd can make Mario hover no matter how high he is in the air? I mean imagine how much water and pressure it would take to keep him elevated when he's way up high. Aside from the fact that water jets don't behave like laser beams, the water reserves would be gone in a second. Realistically he would just fall.

>>9826659
It really bothers me how Mario can fall from an incredibly high height and still potentially go running around at full speed like nothing ever happened, his legs should be shattered at that point

>>9826386
>>9826449
I'd still expect that Nintendo quality seal making them dial back on the backtracking aspects of rareware games. Only 2 stars on the first floor required backtracking and in SM64 alone, only 2 courses and 1 exact power star were required to finish the game. Everything else was up to you on what to do and how you'd do it.
>>9826503
so Galaxy 2?

>>9824517
Your reasoning is retarded. It was advertised as a direct sequel to mario 64, has the same structure and gameplay and gameplay loop as mario 64, and Nintendo themselves released it in a pack with 2 other mainline titles (64 and Galaxy). Your post would be like saying Galaxy isnt a mainline title because it takes place in space, or that Odyssey isnt because of cappy.

>>9826652
Peak delusion to defend a shit game

>>9824091
Sunshine is fine. I guess it's not perfect but it's not drastically different enough for me to hate it the way some people do. Never got into Zelda but I agree with you on F-Zero GX and Pokemon

>>9825695
Sunshine just isn't as good at building narrative coherence as Mario 64 is, you usually forget what the concept is as soon as you start a level in Sunshine, and then you might end up getting lost, falling a lot, wondering 'why is this fun?', etc.

>>9826676
It's not the same thing. When Mario falls it has impact, he vocalizes pain, and takes damage.

the music is also annoying as shit, not atmospheric in the slightest

>>9826963
That's not realistic at all, he should do more than just vocalise pain and then get right back to it, his legs should be ruined and he should be immobilised

>>9826659
Wait, a video game isn't realistic? Imagine my shock

>>9824715
>>9826659
i'm actually not retarded you guys i'm being serious
>>9826717
no i'm saying it's because when you give mario a golf club it's a gimmick side game
you put him in the olympics against team sonic it's gimmick side game
you put him in a go kart and it's a gimmick side game

when you give him a cool hydro blasting water pack it's a gimmick side game

sunshine is fun and all but to me it's no different than a wacky mario side adventure

>>9827058
I feel like the main difference here is that all those games you cited are entirely different genres while sunshine is still a platformer and the hydro blaster is a mechanic on top of that

Reminder that everyone defending Sunshine and Wind Waker are fucking GameCube Babbies

>>9826002
Probably spite towards Koizumi. He and Miyamoto butt heads a lot while Aonuma is willing to be more submissive towards Miyamoto's requests in regards to LoZ. The only time Aonuma really rebelled was when he his from Miyamoto the Toon Link artstyle and we know how well that went over people.

>>9826979
First of all you don't really think that, you are just seething for some reason.
Secondly, it is realistic, consistent, and immersive as to the physics of Mario and his world. We have no evidence that Mario has bones that can be broken, for example.
Whereas the fludd's water jets immediately providing enough pressure to suspend Mario in the area regardless of whether he's 100 feet in the air or 10 stands out like a sore thumb. From the second you press the button, the water jets are making contact with the surface below Mario no matter where you are, as if there's no travel time.
Surely this niggles at you.

>>9827018
Anyone else filled with rage seeing this female's hubris? Why are they so in love with themselves?

>>9827072
>black face mario munching on watermelon
stupidest mario edit i have ever seen, i love it

>>9827206
>>9827220
Literal autism. Seek help.

>>9827403
>nooo you can't disrespect vanity

>>9826503
Let's just be thankful unimaginative morons like you are not in charge of flagship Nintendo titles. Nintendo's strength is their ability to constantly reinvent their own franchises, it's the secret behind their success. Sega just tried to pull off the same trick over and over, eventually failing. Without Super Mario Sunshine the entire Mario franchise would be worse off. I understand why some people prefer 64 or Galaxy, but outright disliking or even hating it I will never understand. It's one of the best games of all time in my opinion.

>>9827417
>nooo one tiktok video is all i need to criticize 3.5 billion women
Autistic thinking. It's a mental handicap and I cannot take people like you seriously, sorry.

>>9827079
And you know this how exactly?

>>9826887
>it's too hard
Filtered. I beat this game when I was 12 years old. You're just dumb, or maybe you just lack imagination and need everything to be spelled out for you.

>>9826968
https://youtu.be/iiomMtvTOGY

>>9827418
>>9827423
You just know this is the same poster

What most people seem to forget is that Sunshine is hated almost exclusively by zoomers. I have never seen anyone older than 25 hate on Sunshine or Wind Waker. Zoomers grew up with Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess, and missed out on the GameCube era. Youtube is riddled with 'Why I hate Sunshine' videos, but core Mario fans always consider Sunshine as among the best video games ever created. In 20 years or so, it will be loved more than Galaxy and have an Earthbound-esque reputation among people who play retro games, mark my words.

>>9827450
Yes, so? Does it fuck with your autie brain the same person replies to different posts in the same thread?

>>9827018
You can't make this argument unless you have a high level of taste and discernment. Lots of things might be more or less realistic, but it's a question of whether they stand out or just 'make sense'.
Obviously I'm not saying I want Mario to expel waste and have a heartrate. Actually I'm not suggesting that anything be changed, or that this is the reason why I don't like Mario Sunshine. I'm just saying it's offputting to see the fludd work that way.
Like for example if instead of the fludd extending Mario's jump if he had a hat with a little propeller on it. That propeller wouldn't necessarily be the correct size and design to give Mario elevation, but it wouldn't bother me because that's something propellers do.

sunshine haters getting DESTROYED in this thread. they're finally gettin exposed for the autistic zoomer scum they are

ya love to see it

>>9827464
How do you explain the long jump then? Mario leaping like 20 feet ahead out of a stationary position is not very realistic now isnt it?

>>9827450
>>9827460
Gotem

>>9827464
>You can't make this argument unless you have a high level of taste and discernment
pffffffffthahahahahAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

gimme a fucking break

also, meds.

>>9827482
?

>>9827403
>>9827423
You don't know what autism is, retard

>>9824091
>sunshine
Yes it sucks Mario was gimped for the water backpack gimmick but at least you had Yoshi, I think everyone universally agrees it's worse than 64 and some of the minigame missions like the squid race or secret course are just not fun, though I don't really care about 3d Mario much didn't even play galaxy 2 or odyssey, had more fun with the 2d entries.

>Wind Waker
Never had a problem with the setting or art style, it is an unfinished, had they give it another year it would have been as good as ocarina

Also people bitch WW but twilight princess is the worse of the two, butt ugly art style that looks nothing like n64 games intended to be but people give it a free pass because it's not wind waker's kiddy art style

>>9827464
>Like for example if instead of the fludd extending Mario's jump if he had a hat with a little propeller on it
Reading through your posts, I can't help but imagine you're wearing one such hat yourself.

>>9827058
is Super Mario World a side game because you get Yoshi

>>9827426
During Iwata Asks and other interviews, Koizumi mentions how Miyamoto never liked whenever he wrote stories for Zelda for being too "out there", the big one being Link's Awakening dream island story instead of a regular "Link fights Ganon" story, since Miyamoto wanted LA to be closer to ALttP.

Mario Galaxy 2 was made according to Koizumi because Miyamoto was mad about the fact he snuck in the Rosalina storyline.

>>9827651
>miyamoto the guy that's responsible for the most soulful 2d Zelda
Damn fuck Shiggy, LA was and will always great for having fuck to do with Zelda or Ganon

>>9827691
*miyamoto hates

>>9827691
It's really more like a toxic marriage because as petty as Miyamoto is towards Koizumi, he also gave Koizumi the keys to the Mario series once Miyamoto retired from directing/Designing games, and we got Galaxy 1 and Odyssey out of that.

>>9824091
>sunshine
Has lower lows than the previous game, but a lot of the secret levels that are pure platforming absolutely mog 64 hands down.
>wind waker
Love this little nigga like you wouldn't believe, but four swords adventure still remains my favorite

>>9824091
My guess is that they plateaued early in 3d and didn't care about sequels as much because they print money regardless.
miyamoto stopped being hands-on, and there was signifcantly less quality control that carried over with nintendo till this day.

>>9827845
PSX buck broke them and sega to the point where nintendo had to survive off the handheld market for a good while until they struck big with the wii for the first few years and then again with the switch.
They peaked early with Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time

>>9824229
It really is cute and purple. This box makes me smile

I'm always surprised when people complain about F.L.U.D.D. That was the thing I liked most about Mario Sunshine. I didn't like the cheesy story scenes or the pastel tropical town setting or the stupid fat townsfolk or the hateful blue coins. But the jetpack was fun! I found the no-water challenge areas relatively uninteresting. I mean I already know how to run and jump around as Mario, and having me do that in an empty void with no enemies around and no interesting worlds to explore is just overly basic I think. I thought those areas were bland.

>>9824229
Making it shaped like a cube and even naming the damn thing after its shape was such an odd attempt at a gimmick. Who gives a shit about the case shape?

>>9827875
(Or maybe there were enemies in some of them? I forget actually. Anyway they felt too mechanical and uninspired to me, like one of those get-to-the-end-of-the-obstacle-course indie games, you know Super Meat Boy or whatever I dunno I never played those because they looked boring.)

>>9824091
Both games are fine, if you gripe about fludd or the ocean you're a toddlerbrained faggot.

Best Mario game desu

>>9825589
bingo, Sunshine mogs, only Odyssey comes close

>>9828702
This

Can anons who love Sunshine please justify:
>only 7 levels (Mario 64 had 15)
>you have to get each shine in order to make the next one available (in Mario 64 you could get them in any order you wished)
>you have to get 7 shines in every level to beat the game (in Mario 64 you could just get whatever stars you wanted)
>you only need 50 shines to beat the game (you need 60 stars in Mario 64)
>24 shines are gained from just collecting blue coins
>7 shines are just chasing Shadow Mario through the level which isn't challenging at all
>several shines are just recycling content (beat this boss, but again)
>the best parts of the game are when you ditch FLUDD entirely
>jump mechanics removed

>>9829535
It's fun.

>>9829535
This is so in bad faith I'm not even gonna bother

>>9825491
Going through 3D All Stars it struck me how much simpler Mario controls in Galaxy compared to Sunshine. Maybe they thought it was too complicated? Also the backpack gimmick works way better with Luigi.

>>9829768
>bad faith
most of those are fair criticisms of the game

>>9829838
No they aren't because Sunshine isn't a collectathon. It's like saying there are 800 moons in Odyssey so that means it's bigger than all Mario games combined. Retard.

It's funny because WW and Sunshine are easily among my favorites because of how much they stand out. Nintendo still had the balls back then to be creative and original instead of just phoning it in with dull and derivative Zelda/Mario skins of what everyone else is already doing. Like, holy shit, an open world Zelda game. That would have been really cool back in 2007 but we got it in 2017 after open world had already become a meme. Likewise, Odyssey is just a copypaste of Mario 64 with stars that have become so numerous as to be reduced to litter. Putting objectives everywhere makes accomplishing the interesting/challenging ones less meaningful.

>>9829810
... and that's exactly why zoomers hate it. if you hate sunshine you're under 23 years old. simple as.

>>9829535
What's your issue with blue coins? Hunting around for blue coins was one of the funnest parts of the game for me.

>>9829865
>because Sunshine isn't a collectathon
sunshines progression doesnt work for the game it is trying to be no matter what lable you slap on it because its not designed to be good but to cover up its lack of content

>>9829810
>>9829872
funnily enough I hated galaxy and it put me off mario until odyssey came out. Never understood the people claiming it's the best mario ever

>>9829872
t. 24 yo

>>9829879
>>9829923
>>9829934
Lol

>>9829535
Youtubers hate it so by 4chan law, I'm inclined to irrationally like it now.
Simple as

>>9830219
Retard, I hated it way before YouTube made it cool to, but I lessened my hatred of it now that worse games have been released.

>>9829535
I don't love Sunshine but I will give my thoughts anyway
>>only 7 levels (Mario 64 had 15)
Still adapting to new technologies from N64 to GC plus greater emphasis was placed on making each location feel connected and like a "real" place rather than disconnected abstract levels like 64. If the game had more time they probably would have included another area or two, probably around the island's dorsal fin
>>you have to get each shine in order to make the next one available (in Mario 64 you could get them in any order you wished)
>>you have to get 7 shines in every level to beat the game (in Mario 64 you could just get whatever stars you wanted)
>>you only need 50 shines to beat the game (you need 60 stars in Mario 64)
>>7 shines are just chasing Shadow Mario through the level which isn't challenging at all
Consequences of putting a greater emphasis on story, levels have a narrative that progresses as you get more shines and Shadow Mario being tied to the plot means you need to beat him in every location before the final fight is available
>>24 shines are gained from just collecting blue coins
No defense for blue coins, there was no reason they needed to have 120 shines total
>>several shines are just recycling content (beat this boss, but again)
Rushed development, though it's not like SM64 didn't reuse concepts either
>>the best parts of the game are when you ditch FLUDD entirely
Because those are just pure platforming and Mario's fun to control on his own, they're tests of skill with nice acapella music
>>jump mechanics removed
Overall moveset had to be simplified so the control scheme wasn't overwhelming, as much as I miss the long jump I also really like the spin jump and chain dives

>>9830423
>like a "real" place rather than disconnected abstract levels like 64.
That's cool and everything but I can't imagine being contrarian enough to claim it's better than having a variety of fantastical levels.

>disingenous zoomers pretending that the gamecube and sunshine aren't zoomershit when 6th gen was barred from being discussed here
Let me guess, when 7th gen is sadly allowed to be discussed here, goalpost will be moved and it suddenly won't be zoomershit either?
You lot disgust me, get the fuck out of my board.

>>9830534
At their oldest Zoomers would have been 5 years old when sunshine released. You're retarded.

>>9830482
Yeah, I'd rather have 3 million levels made of untextured cubes

>>9830534
>Let me guess, when 7th gen is sadly allowed to be discussed here, goalpost will be moved and it suddenly won't be zoomershit either?
yes
>You lot disgust me, get the fuck out of my board.
no

I think the answer to all of those questions is Miyamoto. It seems like during that period, he was at his most George Lucasy. SM64 and OoT were such runaway successes that it seems like Nintendo probably let him do whatever he wanted, and no one in the company had the balls or the authority to tell him "no" when he wanted to make the next Mario game a water park and the next Zelda game an interactive children's cartoon.

>>9830636
Miyamoto was almost completely off hands with Sunshine just offering some ideas and Aonuma infamously hid Wind Waker's art direction from Miyamoto until it was too late to go back because he'd knew Miyamoto would say no, that Toon Link isn't Legend of Zelda, by the time it happened all Miyamoto could request was to make Link's big eyes actually serve some function like staring at interactable objects and clues.

If anything, him getting off hands and no longer directing neither Mario nor Zelda after Mario 64 and OoT might've harmed the series.

>>9830641
>Aonuma infamously hid Wind Waker's art direction from Miyamoto until it was too late to go back
Whoa, do you have a source on that? If true, Aonuma's an even bigger hack than I thought. I already knew everything good about MM came from Koizumi, but this is a whole new level.

The N64 counterparts were massive hits, including the ever growing casual fan base. They changed just enough to make boomers seethe and confuse the casual fan. Sunshine just had a middling rep while WW was more polarizing (but on average was better received). Neither are actually bad.

>>9830645
Not him but dykg made a video about it like a year ago and I like ww but yeah Aunoma shouldn't be in charge of anything like look at >>9825332 I'm also sure when he played WW HD for the wii u he kept dying to the first boss and asked the team if they made the game harder and they said no

The truth is that mario and zelda slowly became worse as time passed, even before the Gamecube.
>West got a shitty reskin while the East got a genuine sequel that's a proper hard mode of 1
>SMB3 was a good attempt, but sort of fucked with the physics of 1 + began the trend of each game making a flying cheat code power up. Still a worthy enough game to replay.
>World gave base mario too much power (floaty physics, can throw shells upward now, spin jump ignores too many obstacles) and that's not even getting into Yoshi giving you almost infinite health and an extra jump, the feather being a skip level button and palaces/secret exits to further skip content
>64 had to change the entire genre because they couldn't figure out a way to make linear platformer, kickstarting the collectathon plague that rareware was steadily building since DKC2
>sunshine's best levels are when they take away your hoverpack cheat code
Meanwhile with Zelda...
>2 is a meme game, not hard at all, but not plays nothing like a sequel to 1 should
>LTTP "streamlined" 1's formula into the first half of the game to steadily railroad you until the dark world. Most brainlets just go with the numberical order instead of experimenting with dungeon orders.
>OOT is just a 3D version of the LTTP formula, but even more railroaded/less variety (5 dungeons instead of 8).
>MM was a cute attempt at going to the vagueness of 1, but attracted muh dark story fags. (BOTW is an even worse bastardized goyslop interpretation of 1 btw, who the fuck takes more inspiration from modern rpgs than their own game they based it on)
>WW might as well be a tech demo for water/wind physics and cel-shading
The best either series got were their original identities surviving through their respective Game Boy (color) titles.

>>9830645
>>9830667
'ere ya go.
>https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/06/miyamoto-wasnt-a-fan-of-the-art-style-in-zelda-wind-waker-when-he-first-saw-it1

>>9830716
>>West got a shitty reskin while the East got a genuine sequel
West got an actual new game while japs got a glorified level pack.

Super Mario World and Mario 64 are the peak of Mario
A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time are the peak of Zelda
Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure 2 are the peak of Sonic
Megaman 2 and Megaman X are the peak of Megaman
Phantasy Star IV and Phantasy Star Oline are the peak of Phantasy Star
Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night are the peak of Castlevania
Super Metroid and Metroid Prime are the peak of Metroid
Star Fox and Star Fox 64 are the peak of Star Fox
Breath of Fire II and Breath of Fire III are the peak of Breath of Fire
Final Fantasy III and Final Fantasy VII are the peak of Final Fantasy
Fire Emblem VI and Fire Emblem VII are the peak of Fire Emblem
Super Star and Squeak Squad are the peak of Kirby

>>9829535
>>only 7 levels (Mario 64 had 15)
I remember Sunshine levels feeling much more elaborate and compact
>>you have to get each shine in order to make the next one available (in Mario 64 you could get them in any order you wished)
This sucks, generally won't defend it
>>you only need 50 shines to beat the game (you need 60 stars in Mario 64)
Don't think this really matters really
>>24 shines are gained from just collecting blue coins
Yeah Blue coins sucks
>>7 shines are just chasing Shadow Mario through the level which isn't challenging at all
I actually don't mind this conceptually, and some levels make good use of it (like the hotel). Though wished Shadow Mario gave you much more run for your money in other levels
>>several shines are just recycling content (beat this boss, but again)
EVERY 3D Mario has this problem, it's not exclusive to Sunshine
>>the best parts of the game are when you ditch FLUDD entirely
The secret levels are cool but exploring the levels is good too
>>jump mechanics removed
Don't know what you mean by this? If you mean them getting rid of the long jump then yeah that sucks, won't defend that.

>>9829535
>only 7 levels (Mario 64 had 15)
I remember Sunshine levels feeling much more elaborate and compact
>you have to get each shine in order to make the next one available (in Mario 64 you could get them in any order you wished)
This sucks, generally won't defend it
>you only need 50 shines to beat the game (you need 60 stars in Mario 64)
Don't think this really matters really
>24 shines are gained from just collecting blue coins
Yeah Blue coins sucks
>7 shines are just chasing Shadow Mario through the level which isn't challenging at all
I actually don't mind this conceptually, and some levels make good use of it (like the hotel). Though wished Shadow Mario gave you much more run for your money in other levels
>several shines are just recycling content (beat this boss, but again)
EVERY 3D Mario has this problem, it's not exclusive to Sunshine
>the best parts of the game are when you ditch FLUDD entirely
The secret levels are cool but exploring the levels is good too
>jump mechanics removed
Don't know what you mean by this? If you mean them getting rid of the long jump then yeah that sucks, won't defend that.

>>9830423
>each location feel connected and like a "real" place
love this. sunshine feels like someone really loved the start of 64 where you can just hang out and bounce around so he made a whole game out of it. galaxy scales that back while odyssey goes back to it.

>>9826659
> I mean imagine how much water and pressure it would take to keep him elevated when he's way up high.
Is this not how action-reaction works. Is that the joke?

>>9830559
Set your hyperbole aside for a second. Imagine your favourite level from SM64, now the whole game is only a big version of that level and all the other ones don't exist. Is it a better game? I dare you to argue to the same.

>>9830716

You have absolutely generic /vr/-lifer tastes and thoughts. Are you even a person?

>>9830817
what about the Hydlide franchise, T&C Surf Designs games, and World Heroes
what about those, anon

>>9824096
Without the sea it becomes way more bland. It needed a little more out in that ocean though. It's hard with link, he's always alone, so they give him a talking boat. It felt very gratuitous to sail to all the places. Otherwise I think it's a great game. Boat upgrades would have been more interesting. Maybe even give link an airship. I think the dungeons and bosses are tops in WW though.

>>9826386
>trade caps for Luigi who has faster mobility and higher jumps, but 4 HP instead of 8 and his usual poor traction and rideable yoshi who has his usual flutter jumping and egg laying/toss abilities
>instead of a hub world whose progress is gated by power star requirements, your progress in the hub world is now gated by solving puzzles in other levels or the hub world or finding secret areas. This can lead to either a one off bonus level to an entirely new world with its own missions and secrets
>mission select format to change the world up for that specific one dropped in favor of exploring worlds and changing them through actions
No fludd, No gravity, No cappy, just good old platforming. The closest thing to a gimmick would be Yoshi or that 2P idea they desperately wanted. Mario 64 is weird in that it's only a collectathon in the sense that stars gated progress. Coins just to restore hp and give you a bonus star if you went out of the way to find 100 of them (I didn't even know they existed until I got the 100 coin star in big boos haunt). Stars were just there to steadily guide you through the first few worlds and even then like >>9826704 said only 2 worlds and 1 power star were truly required for your average run. The basement (3 worlds and 2 secret levels) opens up after only 8 stars and then the 2nd floor (4 worlds) opens up after 30/31 stars.
Contrast that with rareware title, spyro and the several other contemporary 3d platformers where the intention is clearly more on collecting a lot of different things, solving npc problems and playing minigames rather than general platforming.
I also agree with >>9826449 for doing all that for 1 jiggy is lame, but unlocking an entire portion of hub world and levels/secrets feels more rewarding.
Nintendo always reinvents the wheel to keep games fresh and give them their own identities, but I wish they did expand on old ideas every once in a while. I'm still surprised something like Galaxy 2 got created.

>>9824096
He was trying to tell us something, was he?

>>9824091
Sunshine is mariokino and this mod makes it even more ludo than before

>>9834064
stop shilling this slop you fucking nigger

>>9834151
>Racism

>>9830753
Japan got both at the time

>>9834064
Imagine playing those shitty mods unironically

>>9826402
>because you wanted more of the same.
>super mario 64 with a waterpack and downgraded OoT with water is not more of the same

>>9827879
Calm down anon, it's just a name. It would have been weirder to come up with it first and THEN enforce the shape.

>>9830662
The only two games that sold better on the GameCube were Melee and Mario Kart. Wrong again. When will Sunshine hating zoomies learn that they're just parroting a Vtuber fad? In 20 years Sunshine will be revered as that 'different' Mario, same as Link's Awakening now.

>>9827879
It's not even a cube, it's a cuboid. That's what pissed my autistic-ass off.

>>9834926
At least Link's Awakening is a masterpiece, and even better than ALTTP

>>9834934
Sunshine is a master piece too. This is uncontroversial among most Mario fans.

>>9827220
it's fake
you retards then blame the jews, I'd abuse you as well

>>9835098
>it's fake
So all of the other tens of thousands of vapid whore tik toks are fake? Fuck off retard

>>9835494
I can't talk about the other ones but you fall for demoralization tactics too fucking easy
also, that video is as old as tiktok itself

>>9835515
>I can't talk
Exactly. Fuck off retard.

>>9835538
I'm trying to help you but whatever, keep wallowing in shit

>>9835543
You're a moron. Women are vapid as hell. Get some life experience, incel.

>>9835548
>Women are vapid as hell
I don't live in america thankfully, I'm off this conversation

>>9835551
jfc you're an idiot