/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9742247
It's up there
What is YOUR favorite Zelda?

It's good, but for me it's a tie between the two Oracles, I just goddamn love the dungeons, puzzles, movement, and combat.

>>9742247
I feel that way about Super Mario World in its series when it's direct predecessor was better in every way.
As that's not the case in the Zelda series, where the direct predecessor was basically a different genre (although still a good game), I don't see how you feel that way.

>>9742247
Then I'm doing a good job.

>>9742247
Why do you care so much about what other people like?

>>9742247
Kyle, you have to learn to accept that different people like different things.

It is not certain to me at all that OoT is a better game than LttP.

>>9742247

Go back to your wall, Bossman!

>>9742247
What filtered you?
LW Death Mountain boss?

>>9742369
Smw is more fun than 3

>>9742942
Only the cave/special levels in SMW are good. Otherwise you only like it cause its the easiest.
Might as well play SMB3 with a pwing every level.

>>9742247
It's okay, not everyone has played LA.

Just really bothers me how the dungeons all look and sound alike

>>9742247
It's a good game, better than LA, but it's soulless. It doesn't connect with players emotionally. The characters and story are barely there, unlike LA or OoC with all their soul.

>>9742967
>OoC
Oracle of Cuckoos?

>>9742360
>3
>Anywhere near as well done as World
lmfao

>>9742981
brain farted. meant oot

>>9742989
???

>>9742247
Indeed, Link to the Past is not even close, it is not a well representation of the genre when compared to it's better 16-bit contemporaries, such as Story of Thor or Soleil for the Mega Drive, or Neutopia 2 or Valkyrie no Densetsu for the PC Engine, or Marchen Maze for the X68000, not to mention the Xak games, Ys games, and so on, I will never understand why people try to hold up Zelda when it is so readily outclassed.

>>9743042
>I will never understand why people try to hold up Zelda when it is so readily outclassed.
Well, a big part of that might be the fact that all the games you listed are obscure games on less popular or downright obscure systems (in the west).

I'll gladly concede that it's not the best Zelda if they ever make a entry that's actually better.

It is certainly one of the top 3. It's number 2 for me right after Ocarina of Time of course

>>9743042
>Story of Thor
Great but short. Also no side quests other that hidden collectibles
>Soleil
Good Zelda clone. Not as good as actual Zelda
>Neutopia 2
Good Zelda 1 clone. Better than Zelda 1. Not as good as ALttP.
>Valkyrie no Densetsu
Mediocre.
>Marchen Maze
I've been meaning to check this one out.
>Xak games
Pixie is a whore and only pretended to be controlled by the villain.
>Ys games
Fuck. I can't shit talk these games. I can play Ys any day of the week.

>Zelda is inferior because it's popular and these games are superior because they're not
Flawless logic there.

>>9743029
I think you replied to an actual bot.

>>9742247
I love Link to the Past, it’s my favorite Zelda and it’s clearly the best

>The most dungeons in a Zelda game
>The best dungeons in a Zelda game
>The best music by far
>Incredible variety in landscape, climate, and seasons
>Incredible innovation in the items and gameplay, best items, best gameplay
>The most fun to explore
>The most replayable
> Awesome Lord of the Rings type high art story
>Incredibly comfy to playthrough even after you master it
>No annoying SJW-like characters

Ocarina of Time was great, but it was all in all just an attempt to port Link to the Past into 3D. Link to the Past introduced the most items that were in future games (bottles, hookshot, etc) and none of the future games had the same level of innovation.

But ultimately A Link to the Past is high art, so I can see why it feels so out of reach for some

>>9742247
Reminder Kyle was right about LttP sprites being bad

>play a randomized version of a game with intentionally designed progression
>Shit on it for being imbalanced

Kyle is such a dick sometimes lol

>>9742247
Seeing actual perfection would drive someone crazy, I suggest staring at OoT for a few hours to reset your brain.

>>9742247
It's just the default
>I haven't played any other 2D games but want to be contrarian and not pick OoT as the best Zelda but not TOO contrarian
Pick

>>9742894
played this a bunch as a kid, finished it as a teen, havent touched it since. finished links awakening a few times since then. i find OOT has too many cutscenes to be fun in "current day", even tho iv finished it the most

Correct, links awakening is obviously peak zelda

Yeah I replayed it recently and while I appreciate it for its time it didn't hold up for me too well

>dungeon design is really really simple
>combat and boss fights are brain dead easy, especially compared to zelda 1. The game doesn't get remotely challenging till Ganon's Tower.
>hit feedback is really weird, the way enemies bounce off of your sword swings, or you bounce off certain enemies when you hit them. Feels like bumper cars or a bouncy castle.
>with the exception of the flute boy sidequest, text and story presentation is VERY dry especially compared to the next 2d zelda and other adventure games and rpg's of the time like Actraiser and the Soul Blazer series.
>soundtrack is very limited, two overworld themes, two dungeon themes, two boss themes...a handful of other misc tracks, and that's it. Exploring 8 dungeons all with the same theme is a bit weak, especially when even the final one doesn't get a unique track.

Compare I started replaying Zelda 1 last year and had a fuckin' blast. So much sense of danger and so fun to find your way through Hyrule in that. Not saying Zelda 3 is a kusoge or anything, but unlike some similar games I think it's just not that fun once you know where everything is. I just can't imagine putting it on any kind of top 10 list for that reason.

>>9742247
Best 2D Zelda. Link’s Awakening is comparable but LTTP edges it out.

>>9745939
First-time play of Z3 is better though. More creative puzzles and huge variety. Maybe best variety in the series.

>>9745939
>the way enemies bounce off of your sword swings, or you bounce off certain enemies when you hit them. Feels like bumper cars or a bouncy castle.
I love this about LttP
Its 100% controllable and does depend on how close you are along with the angle of the hit

I'm not a Zelda fanboy in any way or form, so I would like to consider myself unbiased.

I think the thing with LttP is just that it aged better than the NES or N64 entries before and after it. 8-bit wasn't quite graphically capable enough to really hold up for most people, and the gameplay, while pioneering, wasn't fully developed, and in retrospect it can feel a little too basic. Same goes for the GB entries mostly. Meanwhile, N64 Zelda games, as much as they are great games mechanically, look and control like utter dogshit by today's standards. N64 fanboys can seethe as much as they want but honestly you could vomit on a plate and create better graphics than OoT or MM.

16 bit era just had that perfect balance of graphics that did justice to the artists vision, complex enough gameplay to remain engaging today, and controls that were simple but entirely adequate. For a lot of people it's the Goldilocks zone of vidya.

Imma be a hipster contarian, though, and say my favourite is that one on the DS where you drive a boat.

>>9742369
>>9742942
I think the original Super Mario Bros. is better than either.

>>9742247
List 25 better Legend of Zelda games released before 2007, you have 15 seconds.

>>9746210
Wand of gamelon

I just wish they didn't mark the bombable walls in the dungeons.

>>9742247
My favorite Zelda is Blood Omen.

The game is thirty years old, so it’s easy to pick apart and has been done so to death. But imagine that none of your favorite games in the last thirty years existed yet, and it was your first time playing it. The variety of weapons, mechanics, puzzles, enemies… all held together by a decent hero story and one of the best OSTs of all time. So many of the elements are simply carried over to OOT, which most people consider the best Zelda game. But LTTP was essentially the blueprint. And the series took decades to try and successfully break away from many of the weapons and formulas that LTTP perfected. The fact that it holds up so well, while so many games of its time look and play so much worse, is a testament to its greatness. We can say it’s short now compared to all the other games we’ve played, or that some of the mechanics were unrefined or that the world is small, but that’s all in the scope of modern games. For the time it came out, it was king. And like so many great games in that era, games are STILL just reusing the formula decades later.

>>9743042
lol that’s some good contrarianism right there. Solid 6.5/10

>>9745973
Yeah I loved it as a kid but it's one of those games where the magic is kinda gone if you play it as an adult or replay it too many times. Compare there are similar games that I can replay any time and still love.

> More creative puzzles

Okay this I don't fuckin' get though. 90% of the puzzles are "a floor button or key is hidden under a pot". It's almost Zelda 1 tier in that the puzzles are more just "interact with the environment slightly" than actually solving a puzzle. I'm struggling to think of very many things in Zelda 3 that actually be called puzzle at all.

>>9746057
It just doesn't feel good feedback wise imo. And the game is so easy it's not like you need to put any effort into controlling it.

>>9746557
>but that’s all in the scope of modern games. For the time it came out, it was king

Not sure I agree. I honestly feel that there are games that came out before and around the same time that in some ways hold up better. Zelda 1 has better combat and exploration. Soul Blazer has a more interesting story and setting. Crystalis...may have a lot of problems, but in many ways it's a more ambitious game on the fuckin' Nes. Not even gonna talk about Ys.

Not saying I don't understand why LTTP pulled ahead from many of its competitors, but just kind of objecting to this idea that this is some old vs new. I think the issue is that in many ways LTTP is kind of a babymode game. It's very easy in ways that are not related to the time it was made or the nascence of its mechanics. That's fine if you're a kid but if you come back to it with adult reflexes and adult puzzle solving skills (let alone having some knowledge of the game and having a basic knowledge of where shit is or where to go) and it comes off as very tepid experience compared to some of the more niche but hardcore games of the same era that hold up better for more experienced gamers.

>>9746557
Bruh, 2 superior Zelda games already existed (among with dozens of great precursors). ALttP dumbing things down to a formula is not a good thing.

>>9747176
Ok, but a lot of what you're saying is subjective. What game doesn't get easier the more you play it and the better you know the mechanics? Is a game better because it has puzzles that are less obvious or take hours to solve, or because you die every five minutes instead of every twenty minutes? You mention "hardcore" games of the era, but I think you'd agree that LTTP isn't trying to be a "hardcore" game... whatever that is. It's a top down action RPG that does what it does very well and is incredibly polished. At the time of its release, were there harder games? Sure. Longer games? Definitely. Game with good OSTs? Absolutely. Similar mechanics? In one way or another. But I'd argue none of those other games had the quality in its presentation at all levels that LTTP did - you mention Crystalis and it's problems. There are plenty of games in the same era that can stand toe to toe, but I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to say LTTP is the best Zelda title. Especially if you appreciate everything it's title had to offer back in 1991.

>>9747191
It wasn't a formula when LTTP came out. Just because it took things from other titles and refined them and made them more accessible without keeping those thing behind incredible difficulty or a 60 hour game doesn't make those other games better. I think you can argue LTTP is objectively better in many ways than the two NES titles - but if you have subjective preferences that but those games over the top for you, I understand. And as far as the "formula" business is concerned: I'd argue the "formula" didn't even really catch on until the 3d era, but even more so in the last decade where every open-world adventure game is compared to BOTW, appropriately or not.

>>9747418
>What game doesn't get easier the more you play it and the better you know the mechanics?

There are degrees. For example Contra 3 is a game that was challenging when I was a kid and is still challenging to me as an adult thanks to clever patterns, rng to keep you on your toes and reacting, etc.

However that's not really the issue. Link to the Past isn't easy because you can memorize the patterns: it's easy full stop. Even if you come to it 20 years later and have forgotten every boss pattern, it's still a damn easy game if you're not either 5 years old or geriatric. That's not something that's true of Zelda 1, or Contra, or Ninja Gaiden, or Ys, or any other classic I'd put above LTTP.

>but I think it's perfectly acceptable for people to say LTTP is the best Zelda title

I don't because like I said, the main issue for me is it just doesn't hold up to replay. What you're arguing is "it's good...for it's time" and what I'm saying is "it's ridiculous to put a game on your top 10 or say it's the best ever when it ages like milk". Zelda 1's challenge, exploration, and overall gameplay aged a thousand times better than LTTP. Majora's Mask's story aged better than LTTP's presentation. The Oracle games dungeon design and puzzles aged better than any of the ones in LTTP.

Again not saying I don't respect it historically, but if you're going to say it's your favorite game ever at least admit that the childhood experience and historical factors is a huge part of that and not the games objective merits.

>>9747697
I guess all of this is subjective but I really disagree with Zelda 1 having aged better mechanically and the Oracles having better dungeons. Seasons in particular has relatively simple dungeons and Ages’s dungeons are the most difficult in the franchise out of obfuscation and how obtuse they get at times. If anything, I could entertain an argument about LA having better or equal dungeons to ALttP, but anything else is just foolish imo.

>>9747725
>Ages’s dungeons are the most difficult in the franchise out of obfuscation and how obtuse they get at times
>A puzzle or spatial navigation more difficult than "pick up the pot to find a key"

Filtered.

>>9747725
Seasons dungeons are also more complex and intricate in their design than LTTP.

I really feel like anyone who entertains the idea that LTTP has great dungeon design REALLY needs to sit down and replay it again. Possibly in one sitting. The dungeons in LTTP are really simple and really bare bones, with barely any puzzles and fairly linear design until near the very end of the game. They're barely more advanced than Zelda 1's dungeons, but without the actual challenging combat.

I would go so far as to say LTTP might have the weakest dungeon design in the series? I can't think of any game up to Minish Cap that doesn't surpass it in some or every way.

>>9743042
Story of Thor is fun but man does it feel clunky compared to its 2D Zelda contemporaries, not even in the same ballpark sorry

>>9742942
SMW is fun due to how you can set your own difficulty and pace with Yoshi and the Cape, the special world has some tightly designed challenging levels as well. 3 is a better overall designed game overall even if the autoscrollers get old

>>9742967
LA is the game that kickstarted Zeldas having "soul", agreed

>>9747150
>It just doesn't feel good feedback wise imo.
Give you more to play with, more control over fights. Its a shame it isn't used more IMO
>And the game is so easy it's not like you need to put any effort into controlling it.
The only Zelda game that isn't extremely easy is 2.
Its like pointing out that the Kirby games are easy.
The real reason to play the games is the adventure/exploration, the music, and the fun items to use. Difficulty was never a point of attraction with the series.

>>9747794
>Seasons dungeons are also more complex and intricate in their design than LTTP.
there is not a single dungeon in seasons as complex as the ice palace or ganon's castle

>>9748370
>The only Zelda game that isn't extremely easy is 2.

1 is pretty challenging too. Some of the later dungeons are pretty intense, almost arcade-y gauntlets that can be very punishing.

>Difficulty was never a point of attraction with the series.

...which is why so many players feel detached from the series as they get older. Outside of the Nes games, they're fine and dandy when you're a kid and thus slightly retarded but they don't offer much replay value when you get older and already know where everything in their world is located. Hence why a lot of older, more hardcore players end up preferring series that also have adventure/exploration, music, etc. but have more substantial challenges, gameplay depth, atmosphere or plots...and also end up scratching their heads when people are like "NO DUDE LTTP IS THE GOAT I'D STILL PLAY THAT SHIT TODAY IT'S MAD HYPE"

>>9748407
Replay both games. You are 100% wrong.

Ganon's Tower is an almost completely linear obstacle course. It's not particularly complex, it's just the only part of the game where there's some semblence of challenge.

The Ice Palace is literally the only somewhat maze-like dungeon in the entire fucking game. And even then it doesn't have THAT much going on: most of the puzzles just amount to keys or buttons being hidden under pots like the rest of the game. Later dungeons in Seasons like Sword and Shield shit all over it in terms of scope, complexity, and the variety of puzzles and challenges. But I'd argue even earlier, less complex dungeons in Seasons are at a similar level of complexity as the Ice Palace and have more interesting puzzles on top of it.

>>9748409
Also one of the reasons I like 1 so much is that the sense of danger that comes from combat actually being somewhat tricky actually enhances the combat. Hyrule in Zelda 1 actually has a sense of danger to it, exploration and navigation feels risky, and all that adds up to make the game feel both more immersive and more exciting to play. I was still actually blown away when I picked the game up again last year and found it just as engrossing to play as when I was a kid. I couldn't say the same of replaying LTTP in almost a single sitting.

>>9748438
*actually enhances the exploration

>>9748409
>...which is why so many players feel detached from the series as they get older.
You're not wrong. Honestly the only Zelda game I revisit anymore is 2.
I love the music, art, and so many other things of LttP, OoT, and a lot of others. But I do have a hard time going back to them
2 on the other hand, that game gets balls to the walls by the final dungeon. Still a challenge to this day.

I just hate the way it looks
It's definitely irrational that it stops me from playing the game altogether, I will agree, but maybe they should have made a nicer looking game

>>9748409
>>9748418
>>9748438
>>9748612
Why does a game have to be incredibly difficult to be good? Also, difficulty is very subjective - what is difficult to some is not difficult to all. Also, not all difficulty is earned; cheap puzzles and obtuse game design is often mistaken as challenging. A game doesn’t have to be the most difficult game ever to hold up. There’s more to a game than just how hard it is to beat.

>>9747776
Jabu-Jabu's Belly in Ages filtered me out of ever playing another Capcom Zelda in my life. Fucking dreadful.

>>9748985
If it makes you feel any better Minish Cap is piss easy

>>9748943
>Why does a game have to be incredibly difficult to be good?
It doesn't, only retards would clam otherwise. But the reality is if you play something enough you get too familiar with it, it can get a bit dull.
Thats all.

>>9742247
It feels like a "Megaman 2" situation, where anyone who says its the best had it either as their first or only experience with the series.

>>9748943
>Why does a game have to be incredibly difficult to be good?

It doesn't have to be INCREDIBLY difficult, but you know, if you're playing an adventure game, you want there to be a sense of danger? Right?

And also, you know, with a fucking GAME, you want to be engaged...and some measure of difficulty is necessary to do that? Imagine a platformer with no pits, nothing to jump over, where you just casually stroll down the street. Not very fun now is it? This is a basic fucking principle of game design. Challenge partially (among other reasons) exists to keep people engaged with the game world and its mechanics.

> Also, difficulty is very subjective

Wow, Imagine that! Talking about a piece of creative work and its qualities is to some extent SUBJECTIVE! People discussing the subjective aspects of a video game? Damn, that's crazy bro

Calling the game "good" at all should be subjective by the same metric so I don't see the point anyway of singling out difficulty as the no-no subjective zone. Unless you only wanna autistically talk about raw sales number or historical influences on other games.

>>9749178
>But the reality is if you play something enough you get too familiar with it, it can get a bit dull.

Sometimes. Some games manage to stay challenging even on replay due to smart design. Some of my favorite games on the same console still fuck my shit up when I revisit them after a few years despite having previously memorized them.

However again, that's not really the point. As I said earlier, LTTP isn't a game that gets easy because you played it several times before (this is only really true of the exploration element). It's combat and hazards and puzzles will be easy for you simply by virtue of not being 5 years old. This is not even subjective, you can compare it so many other games of the time or since or in the same genre or in others. LTTP difficulty is baby mode and if you're not a baby the game is in fact going to be a bit dull.

>>9748985
Again, filtered.

You might not like it, but Ages dungeon design does exactly what it sets out to do: create genuinely puzzling layouts and puzzles that actually require you to use your adult brain to finish them. There's nothing cheap or obtuse about it, it just needs you to have some spatial reasoning ability.

Hell I'd say the fuckin' Ice Palace in LTTP is *actually* cheap. It has a decently clever way it overlaps on itself and is multilayered, requiring a bit of deciphering to figure out how to reach the end area, but all that is vastly compounded by doors shutting behind you if you go the wrong way and having to backtrack for 3-5 minutes through slippery inertia floors and chase down fuckin' penguins to open doors.

Ages dungeons at least give you warps and shortcuts after a while, so despite their complexity you rarely have to backtrack or deal with frustrating shit like that.

>>9749860
>Again, filtered.
That's what I said in my post, I was filtered. I spent hours wandering around Jabu-Jabu and then gave up the game and never touched Seasons or Minish Cap either. Capcom successfully filtered me out of their own games forever.

>>9748669
>I just hate the way it looks
This. Huge Zelda fan here, only beat AlttP once. For reference i've beat every other Zelda at least three times. I can play Zelda 2 any day of the week, i love that game. But for alttp i never keep playing past the first dungeon. The game is ugly and only gets uglier in the dark world. But mostly i fucking hate pink haired Link. I fucking hate him. I just wanna know what the fuck were they thinking?

>>9749871
>I just wanna know what the fuck were they thinking?
Palette limitations.

>>9749870
Okay, fair enough. I'll admit that if you just don't like puzzle solving and maze running, the game might not be for you. It was part of the whole schtick that the two games would be developed for two different fans (though I still say the puzzle solving and shit even in Seasons is as hard or harder than some of the shit in LA).

I will echo that Minish Cap is a lot easier and simpler though as well. Though I personally didn't like it quite as much as the Oracle games (it felt less ambitious and lower in scale, if that made sense, with only 4-5 main dungeons or so...that and links sprite making him look like he had permanent angry eyebrows bugged me as a kid).

>>9749871
Makes it stand out. Like how Yoshi's arms are orange in SMW.

>>9749854
>Calling the game "good" at all should be subjective by the same metric so I don't see the point anyway of singling out difficulty as the no-no subjective zone.
Wrong, Nintendo is almighty and shan't be criticised or given fair critique. If you dare speak out against our Nintendo overlords and their catalog of impeccable, perfect games, you are Australian, and subject to being dogpiled and banned, that sort of subversive discussion is simply not tolerated.

>>9742247
It is iconic and if you grew up with it it’s probably top 10 comfy experiences to replay.
Twilight Princess better though

>>9742247
>Getting assmad about somebody's taste in video games
Try going outside once in a while

>>9742247
LttP is the only Zelda game I actually got bored with, I don't know what happened but I just quit like halfway through.

>>9743060
This.

Obscure games might be better than their contemporaries, but if their contemporaries are more popular then it’s unlikely that they’ll get the recognition they deserve.

>>9750973
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.
I've picked it up a few times in the last 5 years or so, never played it before and wanting to do a playthrough.
But I keep getting filtered by the opening (around to the point where you get to Zelda's cell in the dungeon). Somehow it's just boring to me to play.
I've beaten NES Zelda three times.

FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCK HOW IS THIS THE HARDEST FUCKING ZELDA BOSS IN THE ENTIRE SERIES?!

>>9752338
It was one of those bosses that i could either beat straight away or keep fucking it up

Anyone remember an MMO that was based on Link to the Past? I could never figure out how to play it.

>>9752443
graal

>>9752338
based fuck moldorm, worst part in the game

>>9752493
Yes, that. For some reason, maybe age had to do with it, I could never figure out how to get it running on my computer. Seemed really cool.

If it's 3D it isn't a real Zelda game.

>>9752338
He wasn't that hard.

>>9742247
Link's awakening is best zelda. Oracles were decent but I really hated how bloated those games were. I remember getting annoyed more than a few times at how tedious progression to get to the next dungeon could be. Bigger is not always better.

>>9752338
I remember my first time fighting this dude with a friend. It was a miserable experience. I kept waiting for my friend to die and give me my turn, but he kept getting knocked off and climbing back over and over and over again. Kid me was furious.

>>9742946
Cave levels are good? You can even cheese fly in most of them.

>>9752574
Link's Awakening is inarguably the best Zelda game and arguably the best computer game of all time when you take into account the limitations of the platform it was released on and the amazing quality and diversity of content you got for your money. Platforming, combat, puzzle solving, arcade mini-games, shitloads of hidden stuff, giant map to explore, collectables, memorable designs and characters, a cool story... and, yep I'm going to say it.... SOUL... all on a 160×144 screen run by a Z80 processor.

Ocarina of Time doesn't do *anything* Link's Awakening already did, it just spoons 3D graphic sauce all over the basic recipe.

>>9751258
This.

But if their contemporaries are more popular then it’s unlikely that they’ll get the recognition they deserve.

>>9752672
This.

But if their contemporaries are more popular then it’s unlikely that they’ll get the recognition they deserve.

>>9747435
>I think you can argue LTTP is objectively better in many ways than the two NES titles

The thing is, you can, but all the things it does better then the NES games are then handled far better by the games that game afterward, so it's kind of tepidly stuck in the middle where it has no real edge over anything else.

>>9752731
This.

But if their contemporaries are more popular then it’s unlikely that they’ll get the recognition they deserve.

>>9752338
He's mildly tedious, there's meaner bosses in the game.