/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9747097
MML isn't cel shaded because the blocks are baked into the textures and are totally static ie it's not part of the shading model. afaik Jet Set Radio was the first game to use cel shading

>>9747105
Hardly first

>>9747106
What came earlier?

>>9747105
that's nice

>>9747105
I guess that makes sense if you consider "shading" to specifically refer to shading models, but would you consider it valid to distinguish between "dynamic" cel-shading and baked/static "pre-shaded" cel-shading?

>>9747114
I'll answer your question with another question: does Halo: Combat Evolved use raytracing?

>>9747105
>afaik Jet Set Radio was the first game to use cel shading
This. There were a lot of games emulating a cartoon/comic style before that, but JSR was the first to use cel-shading.

>>9747118
But that’s the point: “shading” is a concept with a broader meaning in technical/artistic terms than “Raytracing”, which basically refers to one specific technology

>>9747097
I don't mean to be negative but that's not what cell-shading is. That's clearly just ordinary 3d with cartoony textures. No outline calculation is going on there. So, awkwardly, there's then the question: what do you actually want to see more of? Art like that, or cell-shading?

>>9747208
shaders don't have a broad meaning

>9747208

>>9747213
>>9747216
A shader is a computer program that calculates the appropriate levels of light, darkness, and color during the rendering of a 3D scene.
Shaders are simple programs that describe the traits of either a vertex or a pixel. Vertex shaders describe the attributes (position, texture coordinates, colors, etc.) of a vertex, while pixel shaders describe the traits (color, z-depth and alpha value) of a pixel. A vertex shader is called for each vertex in a primitive (possibly after tessellation); thus one vertex in, one (updated) vertex out. Each vertex is then rendered as a series of pixels onto a surface (block of memory) that will eventually be sent to the screen.

>>9747218
fucking YAWN

>>9747107
No, it's what came later. Jet Set Radio isn't cel-shaded because it doesn't use shaders.

>>9747138
I remember people calling Fear Effect as the first game but it looks like it's created the same way as MML.

>>9747258
It most definitely had a pipeline for shading

>>9747097
thats not cel shading
heres some games that have a similar art style
https://youtu.be/un6LpHSFl6E

https://youtu.be/IxzKY4VJe0k

https://youtu.be/xDoKYgIYsfM

https://youtu.be/qLuIUnzZPco

https://youtu.be/lFWTHTN6ngg

>>9747105
jsr isn't the first, it's the second. but also the first Here is the actual first and also the second https://youtu.be/7i2vE3qHIdM?t=512
Slap Happy Rhythm Busters.
Why is this post so cryptic and obtuse? they came out on the same day

>>9747305
Just like MML, Slap Happy Rhythm Busters uses cartoon textures but not actual cel shading. It does have actual outlines though, but I don't think it's the first game to use them

>>9747309
Hmmmmm
No.

>>9747218
great wiki paste but shading existed before computers. when pencil drawing a ball, making it look round is with shading. some guy upthread is just fairly saying that if you took a picture of that and used it as a texture there is, in a sense shading being used

>>9747309
>It does have actual outlines though
and how did it implement them, lol? what's that technique called?

>>9747347
>what's that technique called?
Not cel shading

>>9747213
Shading in the context of computer 3D graphics is a term borrowed from the artistic/technical concept of the same name: a process of depicting a surface based on its shape and context using color and tone. By the way, in the same variety of 19th century technical texts in which you may find the term, you will often find it framed in the more general concept of RENDERING. Just saying.

Here >>9747114 I stated I was open to accept that "cel shading" in the context of videogames could refer exclusively to shader programs, as described by >>9747218 for some reason. But it's my opinion that, specially in the popular context it was used in particular, it could refer more to intent than to a specific technology: 3D graphics whose aim is to present visuals similar to how "cels" were "shaded" for animation, using a simplified number of tones without soft transitions between them. But then again, I'm more interested in art direction and visual styles than in semantics.

If you disagree, feel free to argue. But simply refusing to acknowledge any information outside your own awareness or experience isn't really the ultimate discussion hack you seem to believe it is.

Bruh that's just textured low poly not cel

>Topic dissolves into semantics autism

>>9747356
well?

>>9747097
MML is not cell shading, just simple textures mimicking anime. >>9747105 Oh already mentioned it. Yeah, it's a specific dynamic lighting style mean to mimic shading in animation.

>>9747398
I think yeah, "cel-shading" in videogames is specifically considered to be about designing your graphics engine so the simplified traditional animation-style shading is calculated in real time. Also adding "line art" seems to count, but less rigidly as a deal-breaker.

After checking lists over at Wikipedia though I have to say they are a total clusterfuck with obvious contradictions everywhere in terms of what's included and excluded.

>>9747449
>has a complete mental breakdown because people expect correct use of basic terminology

>>9747454
It's just called an outline, not cel shading, given it has nothing to do with shading; it just draws a line along the outermost vertices.

>>9747504
Kek why would you choose a game with actual realtime shading and post a specific example without any visible at all, which would be disqualifiable on the same grounds that those people who "expect correct use of basic terminology" have been going on about? Here ffs don't hurt yourself.

>>9747479
We can just use another word for that. Anime graphics or cartoon graphics. Cel shading is a specific technique.

>>9747553
What game

>>9747565
use reverse image search, Go! Go! Hypergrind

>>9747559
Cel graphics

>>9747570
That's actually very good.

>>9747479
Cel shading is a specific technique where the shader uses a binary to determine how the lighting is rendered (although more advanced versions of it often use a "near binary", where there's a very small amount of ramp to soften the edge slightly).

>>9747553
Because of the smug cat

>>9747553
You just did THE SAME THING. That booba isn't dynamically shaded. I could be wrong but GGH uses dynamic shading mostly in cutscenes, and just plain flat during regular gameplay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNc0A_V5a4

Still looks phenomenal to this day. Looked great on a PS2 and CRT, looks even better in HD. It was the first game I played on my Switch OLED and I was blown away by how it looked on that screen.

Never understood people who don't like this game. Yeah Issun never shuts up and the combat is too easy, but the game is just bursting at the seams with charm and soul. One of those games where you really get the sense that the developers just put everything they had into it and loved crafting every little inch of the world. I guess the slow pace, multiple story arcs and folklore-story filters the ADHD generation.

>>9747690
I liked it, played it first on ps3 when they released the hd version, but for some reason I always got bored around 2/3rds in and never finished it

>>9747690
Mogs Celda so hard it is laughable.

>>9747703
When you play the PS3 version in 4:3 does it have the same bloom level as the PS2 version?

>>9747553
wtf Japan x Spümcø??

Should I play this?

>>9747716
I only played it in widescreen but even if I had tried the 4:3 format I probably wouldn't remember, sorry.

>>9747690
>>9747713
Very unique game, everybody should at least try it. By the way, this is other of the games in this topic that don't really do much with dynamic lighting, it's all mostly about the ink outline effects.

As a Capcom example I think Viewtiful Joe would be more compliant for the semantics police.

>>9747347
Inverted hull in most cases. But it seems that Slap Happy uses a different technique.

dothack GU went fucking nuts in its cel-shading since it wanted to look as much like an anime as possible.
>inb4 but that's the remaster
GU barely needed a touching up since the artstyle let its graphics age extremely well, most of the remastering was done on the gameplay side of things.

>>9747690
>Yeah Issun never shuts up and the combat is too easy
You just said why people don't like it. It's not fun when it's too busy being boring and tedious. It's as exciting as filling out tax forms.

>>9748035
Wind Waker went the opposite way. The enhanced port added shading and bloom and shit all over the place that cancels out the original perfectly realized style imitating that one classic anime movie.

>>9747097
For me, it's cel-shaded Cell

I hope Hi Fi Rush inspires more devs to bring back cel shading.

>>9748072
highest IQ post ITT unironically

>>9748057
the original perfectly realized style imitating that one classic anime movie.

Which classic anime movie?

>>9748035
It defintiely looked a lot rougher around the edges on ps2 but there was never a point in the remasters that make you go "oh god they butchered the original look"

>>9748072
Which game is that from? For a minute I thought it was Super DBZ but Cell is a darker shade of green in that.

>>9748838
Tenkaichi 3

>>9747097
https://youtube.com/watch?v=f5g4HDdCPGM&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

>>9748610
Wanpaku Ouji no Orochi Taiji (aka The Little Prince and the Eight-Headed Dragon) from 1963. Pretty influential in Japan and among pro animators in the West

>>9747097
Hokuto no Ken on PS1.
It looks fucking fantastic. Game is ok.
https://youtu.be/uB9XxoeucLg?t=34

You は shock!

>>9747347
it's the character model being rendered two times, the first time with the normals reversed and a single color, you can see this in vagrant story where the model is just offset to fake lightning

>>9747690
It’s not a very fun game and it is way, WAY longer than it has any right to be. The aesthetic is undeniably sublime, but most of the story and characters are pretty dull and forgettable. I’m glad I played through it, but I wouldn’t blame anyone for dropping it long before it’s over.

>>9749342
VS pulled off all frame buffer tricks in the book, not only rim lighting but also depth of field along with the motion blur schtick MGS popularized

>>9747114
You are correct and the other anon is wrong, nothing excludes baked lighting from obeying cel shading principles, which is just 2-3 tone lighting of flat colors and hard transitions i.e. the most convenient way to paint on animation celluloid.

>differentiating between baked in effects and real time effects in retro games
this seems kind of dumb for the purpose of the discussion. when these early cartoony games came out everyone called them cell shaded regardless of whether the effects were real time or not

>>9751534
This isn't just about retro games. There are also games like Borderlands which doesn't use cel shading but has cartoon graphics. Some anon said cel graphics. I think that term makes most sense.

>>9751573
but it's still shading whether or not it's real time. when i add shading to a picture i draw it's not real time either shading isn't the same thing as a shader

>>9751574
I don't think retro games matters much in this conversation given hardly any retro games used cel graphics. Only a handful of games. Exceptions can always be made for those.
Also adding shading to cel drawing isn't cel shaded. Two different mediums.
Cel shading is a specific shading technique used in computer graphics. There are times where a certain term used interchangeably for different cases so you have a point in that. However, in the past it stemmed from not understanding computer graphics properly.
Using both Cel graphics and cel shading differentiates from that specific technique. There are also modern games use different rendering techniques to create a similar look to cel shaded graphics. So you have a point there as well, but I still think cel graphics make much more sense as a term overall.
English isn't my mother language though. I can't insist on this. There are most likely parts of this I don't not understand correctly.

>>9751652
good response anon

>>9751574
Do U know what a shader is

>>9751519
>nothing excludes baked lighting from obeying cel shading principles
Would we this conclude Halo 1 on the Xbox has ray tracing? Take that, RTX!

>>9751678
no because it's not ray tracing. however i would include baked in lighting in the term "lighting effects"

>>9747724
It's not the only Japan x Spumco game either. There's also this (and its sequel), and Space Fisherman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVxd_7A1TVY

>>9751734
There is always, ALWAYS, a PC or PS2 game I've never seen before.

>>9751683
>no because it's not ray tracing
Bungie used ray tracing for the precalculated lightmaps though

>>9747748
i have the wii version but i've never played it (have a hard drive with a bunch of games) should i play that one or should i get the pc version?

>>9749180
that game is fucking awesome i played it a week ago and made me want to rewatch the anime

>>9749180
>>9752674
Great game, but it hasn't much to do with the topic since it doesn't use dynamic cel-shading, OR Mega Man Legends-style "baked" cel-shading either. It uses the same principle of no-realtime-shading than the latter does, but the style of the textures is different (not intended to represent anime visuals, but the more elaborate illustrative style of the series' covers and illustrations)

>>9752668
The HD versions certainly look better, but motion controls make better use of some of the gameplay concepts

>>9751678
Cel shading is the practice of shading on cels, if Halo 1 has a system of tracing individual rays across the 3D geometry to calculate light and reflections, then yes it has ray tracing. In fact hand drawn lighting/shading on textures is closer to real cel shading than a dynamic shader, since the shader is only imitating a system where every frame is shaded manually by hand, whereas painted textures were actually painted by hand, if only once.

>>9751747
Then it's baked in ray traced light, movies also use path tracing for specific camera angles and nothing else (there's never a situation where you take control of the movie and move dynamically to warrant new light calculations) and that doesn't take away the fact they're path traced. There are probably old games with pre-rendered graphics that were also ray traced 3D models turned into JPGs, those would look even more correct than Halo due to their static cameras, whereas the highlights in Halo would be wrong since they wouldn't account for camera and player movement.

>>9753021
>In fact hand drawn lighting/shading on textures is closer to real cel shading than a dynamic shader, since the shader is only imitating a system where every frame is shaded manually by hand, whereas painted textures were actually painted by hand, if only once.
But real hand-drawn animation has different shading on each frame, which the prebaked approach lacks.

>>9753040
Yeah that's what I meant by "only once" at the end

>>9753046
I'd hardly say it's closer, then

>>9753049
Well one is a completely mechanical approximation whereas the other is done by humans like the original but in 1/10000 the scale. At least MML had various other manual tricks to make up for it like the camera-specific face textures to imitate 2D. It'd be interesting to see a fully manually cel shaded game.

>>9752907
>The HD versions certainly look better
Didn't the HD versions ditch the rice paper overlay texture?

>>9753243
Only on PS3 I believe. All other versions add it back. I'm playing it on Switch right now and the rice paper filter is very heavy and nice.

>>9752907
The Wii port was decent for the time but the motion controls really were too finicky for some of the more complex brush techniques. No real reason to play it anymore.