/vr/ - Retro Games

>>9715154
Next year ZX will be retro, and that is when we win brutha

>>9715167
Stfu about 7th gen being allowed here in every thread, this place would become a joke no longer worth even shitting in. Make a straw poll or something if you are fishing for opinions

And ZX is trash

>>9715167
Is that from the dark age of Mega Man where they just stopped making actual Mega Man games?

>>9715181
>And ZX is trash
t. only likes mm2 and x1

>>9715154
>What did Capcom mean by this?
Zero is Inafune's OC, what did you expect?

>>9715154

Bump

>>9715154
>What did Capcom mean by this?
HOO-HA-HO!!

>>9715154
you didn't play x8 i take it

>>9715154
I like X better as a character. His gameplay is better in X4 as well.

>>9715154
You're talking about the MMZ series? That series sucks fucking ass.

>>9715154
X4 was the ultimate megaman game and Zero takes the cake only because he is fun and the staff could pull him off. Megaman wasn't there for any other reason than it was a Rockman game. He was just filler, it was a game made for Zero.

>>9716802
X4 wasn't even good. Play X5 or X6 instead.

>>9716797
>>9715208

>>9716802
Even X3 is better than X4. Even fucking Megaman 8 is better than X4. The game is a platformer without platforming.

>>9715154
I find it kinda funny that the series called "Mega Man Zero" wound up giving X more character and involvement with the story than the X series did.

>>9716673
This

X4 is my favorite x game even slightly more than x1 and zeroes gameplay edges out x's

>>9716813
That's like comparing a Hollywood blockbuster to its straight to video sequels. Even capcome said the budget was slashed for x5 and 6 compared to x1-4

>>9715186
A little bit before.

Bump

>>9715154
Being an adult is realizing that X is more fun than Zero in every game except X6, and that's because X6 is dogshit and tailor made to make playing X as miserable as possible

>>9715181
>ZX is trash
*laughs in multihittinh spinslashes*

>>9715154
X is more fun, Zero will always be just for a second playthrough. Also, it's only fair that Zero gets a proper origin story by this game, X already got all of that in the past 3 games.

I quite like the story in X4. From X's perspective, all the mavericks eventually show themselves as being cold psychopaths and traitors, while in Zero's perspective, they are mostly old acquaintances and sometimes old friends. Really feels like they were planning to turn X and Zero into tragic anti-heroes by the next installments, but then things got out of hand by X6...

>>9719675
I'm horny

>>9717413
Well if they didn't spend that entire higher budget on bad anime cutscenes they could have afforded some level design.

>>9719685
I wouldn't have wanted the x series to end, but they shouldn't have rushed x6

>>9716813
>X5 or X6 above X4
Now THIS is the level of contrarianism I expect from this shithole kek

>>9716813
Based as fuck
Except X5 is the only one that is better, X6 only has more soul than X4

>>9720825
X5 is worse than X4

>>9719675
>wearing your underwear for outside
no matter how good the gameplay is i cant take the goofy as biometal designs with any hint of seriousness, at least x and co, were bots so there is excuse, at least A model was better and had actual armor

>>9720308
Do you know how cheap anime was to make on 1997 with chinese slave labor? It was way more than just the animation

The first stage theme should have told ya

>>9715154
>that player select screen is the last time he's referred to as "Mega Man X" in-game
What DID Capcom mean by that?

>>9722835
X's intro stage theme > Zero's intro stage theme
Not up for discussion.

>>9723040
X was always a nickname, but I think they started calling him that exclusively circa Mega Man X5 because Mega Man Zero was around the corner and they didn't want kids to wonder why there's a Mega Man X but not a Mega Man Zero, so better to just call the protagonists X and Zero.

>>9723040
He's been called "X" since the first game. Megaman X is just his full legal name, maybe even in the same manner as the japs refer to people's names (Surname Firstname, instead of Firstname Surname).

>>9723115
X has never been called "Mega Man X" by any character, this name appears only in menus.
I like too believe his full name was lost to time, and even X is unaware of the Mega Man name. But probably it's just because the name is too long.

>>9723158
>his full name was lost to time
I doubt they'd lose or forget 7 bytes of data that comprise the word "megaman" unless they forget his entire name along with the database for all reploids ever made.

>>9723158
Dr. Light canonically calls him both.
The manga and novel adaptations tried to come up with their own reasons why "Mega Man X" is seldom heard, but I prefer the simple explanation that it's just a mouthful and everyone calls him "X" for short.

>>9723202
>Dr. Light canonically calls him both.
Because Light is the one who created him.
When I said that the Mega Man name was lost to time, I mean during the time X was sleeping.
The message left by Light refers to X as just X, so theoretically it could be possible that only Light knows X as Mega Man X.

>>9723214
>The message left by Light refers to X as just X, so theoretically it could be possible that only Light knows X as Mega Man X.
PSP remake makes it clearer that Light referred to him in full as Mega Man X.

>>9723236
PSP remake also has a different canon with Cain dying before the events of the first game.

>>9715154
It's weird how x only appears in two cutscenes, 3 if you count that one call after double killed those reploids

>>9723239
That bit has been retconned in one of the more recent sourcebooks. Now he just happened to survive the Day of Sigma somehow.

>>9723214
>I mean during the time X was sleeping.
X1's intro and manual show that Light's message (Which expliticly calls him Megaman X) was received by Cain.

>>9723268
The only time they gave this character something resembling a little bit of development and they even stole him that. Marvelous IP management Capcom.

>>9723294
>WARNING:

>"X" is the first of a new generation of robots which contain an innovative new feature - the ability to think, feel, and make their own decisions. However, this ability could be very dangerous. If "X" were to break the first rule of robotics, "a robot must never harm a human being", the results would be disastrous and I fear that no force on Earth could stop him.

>Approximately 30 years will be required before we can safely confirm his reliability. Unfortunately, I will not live to see that day, nor do I have anyone to carry on my work. Therefore, I have decided to seal him in this capsule, which will test his internal systems until his reliability has been confirmed. Please do not disturb the capsule until that time.

>"X" possesses great risks as well as great possibilities. I can only hope for the best.

>September 18, 20XX
>T. Light

>>9723410

>>9715186
They made BN in 2001 already

>>9723158
The Counter-Hunters in Rockman X2 know him as Rockman X apparently, but this nuance was lost in translation for some reason and it somehow became inconsistent whether it was X, Mega Man X, or even Mega Man.

>>9723410
I never understood does this mean the original megaman wasn't sentient?

>>9725428
As far as I know, no, not entirely. But the series is very loosey goosey with the idea of robotic sentience in general. I -think- proto was lights first attempt at free will and it backfired, as far as I know both rock and roll are purpose driven robots

Even more curious, I wonder where Bass and Zero fall on the sentience scale

>>9725428
>draw a human boy
>give him funny hair/helmet/hands/feet/etc
>make him behave and talk just like a human boy
>make him react with emotion indistinguishable from any other human character
>have him make complex value-based judgements and decisions about what to do or not do
>call him a robot
>insist he has no emotions, sentience, or free will
Japanese sci-fi robots in a nutshell.

>>9725428
>>9725436
The generally accepted fan explanation is no robot in the Classic series is sentient. They can only make decisions that fall within the key functions they were programmed for and some actions are blocked off entirely through hard rules, which is why Mega Man couldn't kill Wily in 7. Basically, they have pre-built goals and can take a range of actions to pursue those goals, so long as they don't defy one of their hard rules. Robot masters can also defy their creators by bending the rules of their programming so they're technically fulfilling their functions, which gives the false impression of sentience. For example, Proto Man can run away from Dr. Light because his core function is to not make Light sad, he has a faulty core that will kill him, and running away to die on his own would make Light less sad than dying at his lab. Bass can similarly fight against Wily because he's fulfilling his core function of being the strongest robot alive.

That's at least the explanation I have always been given. I don't know if this is supported by any official sources.

>>9725481
I'm retarded. I confused sentience and free will. I think the robot masters do have some form of sentience in that they are aware of their own existence and the nature of that existence, but they don't have free will for the reasons above. Reploids do have free will, which differentiates them from robot masters and whether Mavericks are actually infected by a virus or they're just being branded with a politically loaded term to discourage certain behaviour.

>>9725487
>whether Mavericks are actually infected by a virus or they're just being branded with a politically loaded term to discourage certain behaviour
I think it's both. There was a real Maverick virus that did really cause errant behavior, then it became politically convenient to start accusing undesirables of being Mavericks to discredit them and justify doing away with them.

>>9725428
Rock became sentient from his experiences over the course of the classic games but couldn't act upon any thought that went against the laws of robotics, unlike X who was born sentient, sapient and with free will.

>>9725785
>Rock became sentient from his experiences over the course of the classic games but couldn't act upon any thought that went against the laws of robotics
What an absolutely suffering existence, holy shit.

>>9725496
It is both. Mega Man X4 had Repliforce be branded as Mavericks due to the Sky Lagoon incident and the X1 mavericks having explicit reasons for turning against the hunters. Meanwhile, X5 has reploids that have turned maverick, are about to turn maverick or turn maverick mid-discussion due to Sigma spreading the virus everywhere.

>>9725428
This always confused me as well. Everything the original Megaman does implies he is sentient and sapient. Why would Wily of all people beg Megaman not to hurt him at the end of just about every classic game if he knows Megaman can't hurt him? Why would Megaman respond with confusion in 5 when he thought Protoman was the one behind the attacks? Why would Megaman visibly look angry in the ending of 6? If he was just a robot he wouldn't have such emotions or feelings. He would never display confusion, anger, happiness, etc if he could not think or feel for himself. Granted, I have not played 9 or 10 yet, which I hear creates a further mess of this.

>>9725481
>They can only make decisions that fall within the key functions they were programmed for and some actions are blocked off entirely through hard rules, which is why Mega Man couldn't kill Wily in 7.

Depends which version of the game you are playing, the US version makes it clear he can and was a second away from doing it before the place collapsed.

>For example, Proto Man can run away from Dr. Light because his core function is to not make Light sad, he has a faulty core that will kill him, and running away to die on his own would make Light less sad than dying at his lab.

Except Light was also sad that he ran away, and if that's true and he knows he will die then Light will be sad when it happens anyway, except now he will be even sadder because Protoman wouldn't let him fix it. Light flat out said he could fix it. Not to mention Protoman had to lie to a human, his creator no less, in order to do that. The whole "Bending the rules to make Light not be sad" thing really does not hold up. I also never heard of this "Core function is to not make Light sad" thing, that sounds very random.

I think the simplest explanation is that it was just written badly rather than jumping through all these hoops to explain why a robot that clearly expresses human-like sapience is not actually sapient.

>>9725805
At least he almost broke free from his programming at the end of Megaman 7 when he was positively, absolutely about to shoot Wily. His gestures alone are proof of that.

>>9725827
>>9725481
Protoman is the way he is because his faulty core caused a problem in his logic circuits, and it resulted in him prioritizing his self-preservation above all else, avoiding anything that would inevitably change his current state of being (be it damage or Light's offer to fix his core, thus inevitably introducing changes to what he believes is his personality).
Bass prioritizes being the strongest robot there is, and this directive often conflicts with Wily's orders. He runs away often and acts like a rebel, but he always returns to Wily's lab for repairs, as his programming commands.
Robot masters are sapient, but are still bound by programming that only allows them to do what they've been programmed to. Dr. Wily first explains to them that they'll be destroyed at the end of their service life, and then modify their programming as to allow them to do what he wants them to do - rebel against the rules that will destroy them.
>>9725496
It's both, and many other types of motivations. Rebellion, viruses, forced programming, faulty programming, necromancy & puppetteering, and even criminal intent/loose cannon behavior.

>>9725843
Is any of that canon or just fan speculation to try to insist they are not actually sapient?

>>9725843
Is any of that canon or just fan speculation to try to insist they are not actually sapient?

Also...

>Protoman is the way he is because his faulty core caused a problem in his logic circuits, and it resulted in him prioritizing his self-preservation above all else

>It's both, and many other types of motivations. Rebellion, viruses, forced programming, faulty programming, necromancy & puppetteering, and even criminal intent/loose cannon behavior.

You're basically arguing that they aren't sapient, but pretty much anything that glitches them suddenly makes them sapient, power cores, viruses, etc. That just sounds silly.

>>9725862
The first statement is about Classic MM robots and the second statement is about MMX reploids, they work differently.

>>9725862
>Is any of that canon or just fan speculation to try to insist they are not actually sapient?
There's no shortage of material showing that the robots are sapient and sentient with their own views of the world and all that. That doesn't mean they're free to do whatever they want, they can only operate within the confine of what their programming lets them do.
>You're basically arguing that they aren't sapient
That part about motivations is for Reploids, not the robots from the classic series.

>>9725827
>Granted, I have not played 9 or 10 yet, which I hear creates a further mess of this.
9 introduced the concept of a robot expiration date, upon which robots must be destroyed. The twist is that Wily approached some of the robots slated to be destroyed and convinced them to allow him to 'repair' them to prove that they can still be useful. It kinda depends on how you look at it, since the robots accepted their fate at first and it wasn't until Wily pointed out how messed up it was and that they could still be useful that they had second thoughts. They also say that they still want to be of use to people.
Mega Man 10 had Roboenza, which people speculate to be a predecessor to the Zero/Maverick Virus due to its symptoms (robots get sick and then sometimes turn violent). I'm not sure how that messes things up.
(I'd spoiler these, but the games don't put that much effort in hiding Wily being the final boss.)

>>9725887
>That doesn't mean they're free to do whatever they want, they can only operate within the confine of what their programming lets them do.

Pretty sure Wily didn't program Bass to trash his own robots to prove he is the strongest. Even if you want to argue he was programmed to "Be the strongest" Wily would not have been stupid enough to not also program "Don't attack my own robots".

>>9725898
>Wily would not have been stupid enough to not also program "Don't attack my own robots".
He is stupid, sometimes. He's good a making robots, not so much at programming them. Not even Zero functioned as intended, so he had to seal him away in a capsule and make the Wily Virus just so he could put him on a leash.
Besides, his plans always fail.

>>9725897
The Evil Energy from MM8 fits the bill much better than roboenza. They came up with the latter idea long after Capcom stopped caring about lore, for a game that was really just a nostalgia cash grab.

>>9725907
Zero makes even less sense, that's saying that somehow Wiley managed to by ACCIDENT make a robot that's as sapient as X when he had no intention of making him sapient. It makes a lot more sense if Megaman and Bass and all those are sapient in the first place since then that would just be par for the course rather than all these loopholes of how they are not really sapient yet every time they disobey orders it's some loophole in their programming like Proto not wanting to make Light sad.

All the post NES Megaman games move stepwise towards X themes
7 has Megaman being unable to solve the dilemma of killing Wily to stop him from causing more destruction
8 has the whole evil energy plot
Megaman & Bass has King wanting to make a robot country
9 has robots wanting to go beyond their original mission scope
10 has a robot virus
11 has robots with enough wisdom to use more dangerous powers for good

>>9725914
>Wiley managed to by ACCIDENT make a robot that's as sapient as X when he had no intention of making him sapient
It wasn't quite a accident. He tried implementing Evil Energy into his systems (which is a sentient entity in and of itself which is a whole different can of worms) and it gave Zero a much more advanced logic programming than other robots.
Here's the thing though - Zero usually behaves in a "I was told to arrest you, if you refuse I'll kill you" modus operandi. He doesn't dabble on moral dilemmas like X does, and just does the one thing he was built for (fighting). Not only that, he's constantly puzzled by X's consideration towards others and how the latter thinks things through much more than anyone else. All things considered, this makes Zero more of a very advanced robot master than legitimate true AI like X.

>>9725930
>He doesn't dabble on moral dilemmas like X does, and just does the one thing he was built for (fighting).

I have a hard time believing that...

>>9715154
Zero is Inafune's OC and he wants to fuck him in the ass. That was his main influence when making decisions for the series.

It's just an accident. Zero is always broken in every game he's in. Even fighting games.

>>9726005
I mean, a first love and the fate of all living things on planet Earth are on different levels in terms of how many important decisions you have to make.

>>9726018
In X4 Zero is absolutely worse than X
He takes twice the damage of armored X, doesn't have the weaknesses of every boss, does way less damage than the ultimate buster against normal enemies and mid-bosses, and just as much damage against bosses, while having short range (but hey, no charging), and is particularly bad against General or Sigma.

He's somewhat broken in X5 because his saber was buffed to hell, and you can equip parts or get the black armor to fix his defense.

After that the only game where Zero is somewhat broken in X8, with the Sigma Blade, but this is post-game content so I'm not even sure if it should count.

>>9726058
Yeah he's awful in X4, but if you cheat and spam that saber dash cancel then he's broken.

>>9726058
There is some positioning you can do against sigma that pretty much oneshots him

I thought zero was bad in X4 until I got kuuenzan. After that he's broken.

>>9723158
>>9723202
>>9725286
It does feel like a lost plotpoint, almost like the writers wanted to add this detail but Capcom rejected it for marketing.

>>9723104
I always took it as a text space constraint that the devs then ran with for some reason.