/vr/ - Retro Games

But Sanic 2

>>962896
Inferior.
S2 is to S3 what GTA:VC is to GTA:SA.

I don't like it that much.
Not a bad game, but it's completely outclassed by tons of other games.

>>962906
Outclassed? What do you mean? How can you not like it that much?

>>962905
So the game with the smaller levels, but better characters (lol in a sonic game), better story (again, lol sonic), better music and better atmosphere ?

>>962894
>universally accpected 'Top 10' list of anything
>if there were one, and it were universally accepted, it would have Sonic 3, of all games

>>962912
...wat?

>>962918
You know what I mean, like the way Zelda 64 or FF7 are known for. And why not S3, of all games?

>>962918
It is a damn good game but I've played much better ones.

>>962927
>...wat?
There is nothing to not understand in that post.

>>962918
sometimes truth is stranger than fiction

>>962894
getabettergamingpalate/10
i replied

Sonic 2 is better

Sonic 3 and Knuckles was DLC before DLC was a thing.

>>962905
So S2 has a better soundtrack based on a timeless classic sound, compared to S3 relying on shitty rap music and "we want the hip hops the kids love"?

Sounds about right.

>>962941
>shitty rap music

/pol/ pls go

>>962927
Games like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme are highly regarded as "the best game ever made", because there are VERY strong points to back up the claim. What points do YOU have that back up the claim that Sonic 3 should outrank its predecessors and at least 10 other games that are better than it which would be featured in another 'Top 10' games of all time' list?

>>962941
No, that's not exactly what I meant. It's just a simple analogy. In general, S3 did everything S2 did, but better. Honestly I'm confused how anyone could disagree here, it's practically an objective fact.

>>962937
Are you actually criticizing Sonic Team for making such an ambitious project that it exceeded the capabilities of the technology available at the time? It's easy in retrospect to view SK as DLC but there's one major difference compared to modern DLC: SK was incidental, not intentional.

>>962952
>Games like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme are highly regarded as "the best game ever made", because there are VERY strong points to back up the claim.
Really? Please enlighten me.
I could write an essay about all the reasons S3 is a top notch game, but I don't think I can be assed to do that at this point in the discusion yet.

Sonic 1 > Sonic3 & Knuckles> Sonic 2

I got this game when I bought a ton of NES games I think, the guy had it in the box and said i could have it too if i wanted.
I still don't have a genesis so I havent played it. I don't care for sonic 1 too much, what makes this one any better?

>>962971
But Vice City was better than SA.

>>962976

whats it like to have bad taste

>>962976
That's nice that you feel that way, but the fact is that S1 was the first in the series. It was new, experimental, they were still learning how Sonic was done. S3, on the other hand, represents the pinnacle of the original concept of Sonic as presented in S1. It is masterfully crafted, which can only be achieved through experience, which was simply not possible to have had during the creation of S1.

>get sonic and knuckles
>plug in Shining Force 2
>Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails are now on my team
>Sonic is insanely fast, moves first every battle and always get 2 moves/2 attacks in a row
>Tails is a flyer who is extremely difficult for enemies to hit and can move practically across the map in one turn
>Knuckles has brutal hand-to-hand attacks and can climb up walls and other impassable terrain

THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED

>>962987
I wouldn't know.

>>962983
see
>>962990

Just trust me, it's much better, you'll like it.

>>962937
It offered way more than DLC ever did.

Knuckles in Sonic 2 and Get Blue Spheres was some sick shit.

>>962984
I would love to start an argument about this statement if it wasn't for "muh retro"

I know Sonic 3 & Knuckles is fucking amazing but every time I think about playing it I can't get over those fucking long levels. Yes hyperbole.

>>963004
just do it, mods are probably at their respective elementary schools

>>962990
>Sonic 3
>the pinnacle

>Something is horribly amiss about Sonic's third outing. Is it the fact that the game wasn't fully completed and half the content was held back for the "sequel," Sonic & Knuckles? Is it the messy level designs, which seem to have been constructed specifically for the sake of bogging Sonic down with small, annoying impediments? Is it the dull and forgettable enemies? The tepid soundtrack? The irritating bonus stages? Ah, maybe it's all the above. Sonic 3 is, in retrospect, the point where the series' star lost some of its shine -- a decent if unremarkable game. Given its pedigree, "decent" isn't good enough.

>putting a Sega game in top ten anything

>>963005
How can you think S3K is great, yet get discouraged from playing it by the main content of the game: it's level design?

>>963016
Epic, simply epic.

Sonic CD > Sonic 2 > Sonic > Sonic 3 = S&K > a pile of shit > every other sonic game ever.

Seriously, S3/S&K just didn't feel right and relied on an assload of gimmicky obstacles and irritating level design. Also, the music was horrible.

I can't understand the love for it.

opinions

>>963010
Nah, it's not even about the mods, I don't like it when people shit up threads with things that are wildly off topic, why do it myself?

>>963004
Read here why you are not really correct:
>>962912

>>963014
>>Something is horribly amiss about Sonic's third outing.
Opinion.

>>Is it the fact that the game wasn't fully completed and half the content was held back for the "sequel," Sonic & Knuckles?
>Not understanding the true story behind S3 and SK about why they were separated
>Not realizing they were originally supposed to be one and the same
>Not considering them as such for the purposes of review

Is it the messy level designs, which seem to have been constructed specifically for the sake of bogging Sonic down with small, annoying impediments?
>messy
Lolwut? Also, sorry, but hold right to win doesn't apply to S3.

>>Is it the dull and forgettable enemies? The tepid soundtrack?
Bullshit, S3 had outstanding enemies and an exceptional soundtrack.

>>The irritating bonus stages?
Who gives a fuck about bonus stages?

>>Ah, maybe it's all the above. Sonic 3 is, in retrospect, the point where the series' star lost some of its shine.
S2 fanboy detected. Confirmed for being blinded by nostalgia.

S3&K holds a spot in my personal top 10 though Sonic 3 Complete might supplant it, but it's also understandable why it doesn't regularly top "greatest of" charts. It's biggest accomplishments (in terms of gameplay, ignoring the neat lock-on feature) are evolutionary, not revolutionary-- it's extremely well-executed, but didn't do much besides further refine Sonic 2. There are just too many games that were equally good, but did more for their respective genres or even the industry as a whole to warrant placing S3&K in a list of the greatest games ever made.

It's also debatable to what degree Sega shot themselves in the foot by not releasing Sonic 3 as a single complete game from the beginning. It doesn't help that to this day compilations separate them into two separate games. I only ever play them together, but wouldn't be surprised to find that most people view them strictly separately.

>>962894
Yes OP, we mad.

>>963029
>story
>characters
>atmosphere

>criteria for judging the worth of a video game
Key word: game.

>>963050
A game is a whole package and not just one thing.

>>963047
>but did more for their respective genres
S3 perfected its very own genre created by S1, a genre that blends flowing level design with pinball physics at a fast pace. It's truly unique, even to this day no other game has been able to replicate that. That's arguably more impressive than anything Zelda64 had to offer. That's why we have the term "Zelda clone".

>>963061

>S3 perfected its very own genre created by S1, a genre that blends flowing level design with pinball physics at a fast pace.

"Sonic" is not a genre. It's just one take on the platforming genre. And "mechanics loosely influenced by pinball" are not "pinball physics."

>That's arguably more impressive than anything Zelda64 had to offer

No, it really isn't. It really, really isn't, nor is it more impressive than the huge leaps made by any of the other usual suspects-- SMB, Half-Life, GTA III, etc.

>>963090
Sonic 3 invented sandbox gameplay.

>>963101

And Halo invented guns, right?

>>963053
I think a game is very different from the other artistic elements like story, characters, etc.

A game has rules and is very thoroughly defined with win and loose conditions. Then you have interactive art which doesn't strive to be a game at all, but rather a means to express emotions through story, experience, empression, and what not (i.e. LSD). Now a video game can have both of these things, but only the elements of the game can be objectively judged.

>>963026
>S3/S&K just didn't feel right and relied on an assload of gimmicky obstacles and irritating level design
>places Sonic CD first

u wot m8?

>>963045
>opinion

>>962992
Bullhonkey.

>>962995
That's because it was the original "Sell the rest of the game as DLC" before that was a thing.

And it still did it better than most games today.

>>963090
Hurr SMB is the most revolutionary game evar!!

You named a bunch of overhyped piece of shit games, your opinon means nothing.

>>962941
>implying rap music is shitty

>>963184
>I don't like it because it's popular

Looks like /v/ has finally taken over. Nice knowing you, /vr/.

>>963016

>>963231
Don't be dissin' on my power armor.

>>963184

wow

>>963216
>No, it really isn't. It really, really isn't, nor is it more impressive than the huge leaps made by any of the other usual suspects-- SMB, Half-Life, GTA III, etc.

>implying SMB1 doesn't belong on an Atari
>implying half life did anything revolutionary instead of just being one of the first games that were 10/10 TRIPLE A GOTYAY on their paying off of reviewers alone
>gta 3 was okay

>>963252
>>963184

>>963252
I'm not well-acquainted with the Atari, could it have done what SMB did with 32 unique levels?

Because that was the thing SMB did that was never done before, right -- rather than the same two or three levels over and over again with upped enemy difficulty each time, SMB only had three or four levels with the same layout as a previous one, each of the others having their own layout and there being a definite end rather than just a game over screen (even if you could go back to the beginning after beating it)?

>>962894
Because it's two games

>>963331
It seems the emphasis has been on Sonic 3 in this thread. But yes they are two separate games and I personally think that Sonic and Knuckles is the better game, and Sonic 2 being the apex of the series, not discounting the first Sonic as that is arguably near as good as Sonic 3 if not better.

>>963270
No it could not. Refer to >>963264 to see why the guy said that.

>>962927
Those two games get undeserved praise because they were the first 3D games in their respective franchises. S3 did nothing like that so it does not get blown out of proportion by people.

>>963264
>haha, i'll respond to an opinion i can't refute with an epic meme, that'll show him

>>962894
Truth

>>963369

>implying pants-on-head retarded trolls merit a legitimate response
>wasting time explaining the merits of the most well-known games ever for the millionth time

even this is pushing it

>>963048
That is one sexy chart

>>962894
The only I have with S3&K was that it had too many auto-run sections

Other than that it is fucking perfect. When I was little and I saw dat opening with Sonic jumping over the SEGA screen towards you... it blew my mind!

TAS Mario World: 10 minutes
TAS Sonic 3 & Knuckles: 45 minutes

Mario World is a great game, but I don't see why people seem to think it constantly edges out Sonic 3K

>>963369
If your post wasn't bait, why haven't you replied to >>963270 yet?

>>963270
>>963835
There were plenty of 8-bit computer games that came out before the NES that did everything SMB did. Just because you le 90s N64 kids are ignorant doesn't mean they don't exist.

For me it's easily in my top 10 (Both classic and modern) games of all time. It's absolutely incredible.
>Dose beautiful graphics
>Dat FAST gameplay
>Dat nearly perfect OST (Some songs are meh, others are fucking godly)
>Dat going from Sonic 3 to Sonic and Knuckles transition
>Dat Super Sonic
>Dat 16 emeralds Hyper Sonic
>Dat Hyper Knuckles and Hyper HOLY FUCK FLICKYS Tails
>Dat fucking amazing made my penis diamonds extra final boss
I've beaten the game many, many times in my life. A truly great game, I believe is one that is incredibly fun to replay, not only at the time of when it comes out, but also many years down the line.
It upsets me with people jjizzing themselves over TLoU when in a year nobody will really want to replay it. Meanwhile I regulalry beat Vanquish every month since it's just so much fucking fun.

It's good, but the Sonic 3 complete hack makes it better.

>>963805
I realize this is just bait but.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0gnT74Y4kY 1:10:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymeKa9NdOq4 0:45:29

>>963915
Still waiting for an example with those exact specifics.

>>962941
Yeah, hair metal was so good.

>>962905
A game with worse mechanics but better music?

>>965007
>hair metal
the fuck are you on about son?
this is Sonic not Rock n Roll Racing.

>>965153

I believe he's referring to the music in the GTA radio stations

>>962905
whoever came up with this analogy should feel bad, he practically polarized the thread with his stupidity

>>962896
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 was the best Sonic game. It featured an actual in game plot with plenty of levels and that fast paced Sonic action we all know and love. Plus it had tons of replay value as you could play as Sonic, Tales, Sonic&Tales and even knuckles it you locked on with Sonic and Knuckles.

>>965167
Also to be noted that locking on the cartridge with Sonic and Knuckles combined both games to make one big Sonic game with the new super emeralds added in after you collect the original 7.

History lesson: Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Sonic and Knuckles were meant to be one game, all on one cartridge. But it became obviouse very soon into the project that it would be far to expensive to do and it would be difficult attempting to fit all that game data on one cartridge.

>>962918
>>if there were one, and it were universally accepted, it would have Sonic 3, of all games

....
...
What the fuck does this even mean? I think you just gave the english language an abortion for fucks sake.

I would've liked sonic 3k more if
>It was one game
>Kept the sonic 3 layouts
>Kept Flying Battery inbetween CN and IC
>Knuckles skipped FB and had one or two full length zones exclusive to himself
>Sonic's instashield attack was nerfed
>Bonus stages required more rings to reach

Sonic 3 and Knuckles
Sonic CD
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Rush
as far as i'm concerned there are no other sonic games.

Sonic 3 in the top ten games ever? Ehh, top ten platformers definitely, but I wouldn't put it in the top ten overall. Top fifty absolutely without a doubt though.

>>965447
>Advance 2
Why the second one? I've spent about an hour on each of the first 3 Sonic Advance games (there's 4 total, right?) and I thought they were all pretty bland, but this was something like 10 years ago. How does the second one stand out?

>>963346
>>963331
It was meant to be one game but the cartridges back then simply could not hold its awesome.

No really, they couldn't fucking hold a game that size.

Thats why S&N came out about 6-8 months later varying by region, so that you could plug them together and finally enjoy the full story.

>tfw there were like 4 deleted stages

IT COULD HAVE BEEN EVEN MORE

Anyone else think Lava Reef Zone is fucking beautiful?

>>965516
>tfw there were like 4 deleted stages

News to me, and I used to run the Sonic Cult. What levels are you talking of?

fuck ass mods deleted my thread

>>966417
god damn fuck ass mods!

>>966393
the levels where you had to go fast

>>966420
top krekl 'n' snaps

I wouldn't even put Sonic 3&K in a top 50 platformers list.

>>966429
What are your top 5 favourite platformers?

>>966387
Best stage of S&K.

>>966417

Serves you right for dissing Blaze, you nostalgiafagging mongoloid.

>>966393
He's probably thinking of Sonic 2.

-Wood Zone
-Desert Zone
-Hidden Palace
-Genocide City
-Death Egg was originally supposed to be a full level and not just the two last bosses

>>966435
Kid Chameleon
Little Samson
Super Mario Bros. 3
Mega Man X
Dynamite Headdy


In no particular order.

>>966449
megaman x
dynamite headdy
sonic 3k
ecco the tides of time
kirby's epic yarn

>>966464
Is Ecco really a platformer?

>>966429
Hi Bret Hart

>>966468

Yes.

>>966468
its a platformer with elements of shadowplay

>>966449
>Kid Chameleon

You're cool.

>>966449
>Kid Chameleon
Good lord.

That game has aged terribly. And even back then it was merely Sega's answer to Super Mario.

>>962992
>my uncle works at sega you see

>>966531
It's basically Mario 3 but with more suit powers, more oppurtunities to use the suit powers to access levels and secret areas and without the non-threatening difficulty.

The only real problem I have with it is that it has a quantity of levels on par with SMB3 but they're too fucking long making the game a bit of a slog. Though to be fair, I find SMB3 a slog anyway.

Whatever, give me Master System Castle of Illusion.

>>966575
>now you can collect Hyper Emeralds, get them all to unlock an Ultra form!

Yuji Naki and Son Goku: [laughing from the distance]

>>963005
S3K levels really aren't that long. They're about right for my tastes anyways. I don't like games that are over so fast. Besides, it even saves your progress so no reason to have to rush through.

>>966531
> hating on kid chameleon
my greatest hatred of that game as a child was its lack of linearity. Multiple stage exits and warps with no clear indication of progress.
Today, that s why I love it.
Also, when I bought it and a sega 12 years after I first beat it, I still knew I needed the fly suit in an ice level to get o the boss. I had no idea which ice level or how to get here, but hey.

>>965191
That person uses greentext as shorthand for

>implying

so the mesage would read as

implying that if there were one [list], and it were universally accepted, it would have Sonic 3, of all games

>>962894
But it IS the best Sonic game ever created.

Sanic2fags stay mad.

>>966579
>>966880

Anyone played this?
http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_3_Complete_%28hack%29

If you haven't, get right to it. Makes S3&K even more glorious. Can't go back to playing vanilla S3&K.

All 2d Sonic games are mediocre.

All 3d ones are bad.

>>967247
Anon! Language!!

>>967903
Did you know that Marcus doesn't say that you robbed him if you don't take anything at all?

>>965447
>Advance 2

That was the worst advance Sonic, IMO. How can you enjoy "hold right to win" gameplay? At least 1 and 3 had proper platforming sections.

>>967247
Its a shame kid chameleon didn't have a save system, despite having 100+ levels. Think only the hardcorist of hardcore KC players actually completed it back in the day when emulators with save states didnt exist.

>>967836
Love that to shit

If only they had an option for knuckles to skip FB. It never felt right for knuckles to be in that level, and with FB being inbetween CN and IC it feels even worse having him participate FB.

I'm thinking of playing through all of these in one day at some point.

Do you go:
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic 3
Sonic & Knuckles
Sonic 3 & Knuckles

or do you not play the original version of 3 at all?

>>968012
I prefer the original 3 layouts for levels like Hydrocity and Launch Base. Disappointed that 3K basically makes them easier.

>>965472
I personally feel Advance 1 is overrated and meh, Advance 2 is absolute shit, and Advance 3 was actually pretty decent.

>>967864
Mmmm, dat's some tasty bait.

>>968012
Play 1, 2, 3&K.

Then view the title screen for S&K, it's too awesome to be ignored.

>>967945
I held right to win and I ended up getting stuck on some spikes.

>>968239
His point was that advance 2 relied so much on speed, that there was hardly any true platforming. You could basically just hold right for the majority of the level, with occasional jumping here and there.

>3 best Sonic game

>It featured an actual in game plot

Really? This fucking argument? Plot in a go-fast game is a good thing?...

>plenty of levels

3 had 6
S&K had 8
2 had 11

>that fast paced Sonic action

You mean fast when it's not interrupted by cutscenes. You mean fast besides from that railroaded slow section that every level has. You mean fast as in most levels take forever to finish. No. Fast, in Sonic terms, is Sonic 2.

>tons of replay value as you could play as Sonic, Tales, Sonic&Tales

Oh, so that's why the levels have been butchered? So we can replay it as "Tales" and swim or fly for a bit?

>were meant to be one game, all on one cartridge

So you're happy about spending twice the money? So you're comparing 2 games to one?

Get real. 3 or S&K might be "better" games than 2 but those horrible arguments stink of "it's better bc I like it more". Besides, having played them when they came out, all I need to know is what I play today when I want to go fast, jump on shit and finish levels in under 30 seconds to make me feel all pro. That is Sonic 2.

>>968259
>in a go-fast game
This again. Going fast is only an element of the old Sonic games. All the 2D ones have a strong focus on platforming, secrets and obstacle avoidance. "Going fast" is only ever used as a method to proceed, like steep inclines, loops and such. Only CD had it as a central mechanic.

>>968259
>Oh, so that's why the levels have been butchered? So we can replay it as "Tales" and swim or fly for a bit?
Being a bit dramatic, don't you think? I can't remember a time when playing 3 or K where I felt a level was "butchered" to be conducive to the other characters. Sonic was always the centerpiece levels were designed around, and anything Tails could fly to or Knuckles could climb to felt like a bonus since Sonic could get to most if not all of them, just with a bit more effort.

>>968259
>Plot in a go-fast game is a good thing?
Why don't you shut up and think about the context of the time in which this game was released. It was 1994 and companies across the entire video game industry were moving towards a trend of having greater emphasis on plot and cutscenes in video games. Since we're looking at the game in retrospect, you logically can't criticize S3 for trying to stay competitive in that way. It didn't invent the concept, and besides, it's not like having those few, brief scenes detract from the overall experience in any fucking way.

>3 had 6
>S&K had 8
>2 had 11
6 + 8 = ???
For someone who sounds so self righteous and know it ally, I'm surprised you don't seem to realize that S3 and SK are essentially one game. Despite the limitations of technology at the time, that prevented them from fitting on a single cartridge. Why would you even consider them as separate games? That just doesn't make sense.

> So we can replay it as "Tales" and swim or fly for a bit?
Hm... not sure if strawmanning, trollbaiting, or just plainly ignorant.

>So you're happy about spending twice the money?
Lel, what a pathetic arguement. As a kid, as many of us were when the game came out, it was a nonissue because our parents simply got it for us. And now, with emulators and the internet, there's always the option to play them for free. Otherwise, what's a measly 10-15 bucks or whatever, to buy it used or virtually, for such a gem of a classic game? I have spent many more dozens of hours on S3K in my life than 90% of modern games and enjoyed that time more, too.

> So you're comparing 2 games to one?
Two cartridges, one game. It's a simple concept, deal with it. Is FF7 technically 3 different games just because it came on 3 discs?

>having played them when they came out
Oh, I get it. You're one of those people who plays a Sonic game, beats it once, maybe plays it again to get all the emeralds, then shelfs it for life and thinks they have nothing left to learn?

>>968331
I still routinely play S3K to this day, and throughout the years I have consistently returned to it from time to time, and it never fails to deliver satisfying gameplay and surprise me with new discoveries I had previously overlooked. I think the common term for people like you, however, would be something like "casual." Sorry, but it's true.

Also I forgot to mention, about the levels, each of S3's levels are about twice the size of S2's, IIRC, and also much more intricate. Far be it from anyone who hasn't personally sat down and looked at a full map of S3's levels and studied them, to go on the internet and publicly criticize anything about their design, including length or quantity.

I played them when they came out except Sonic CD which I didn't get until 1998 or so when the PC port came out and I enjoy them all equally. Sonic 1, 2, 3K, and CD are all some of my favorite games.

Arguments like these are worse than Mario 3 vs. Mario World. It's like, they're already 5/5 games, what more do you want to say?

>>968292
>>968312
>>968331

Is the goal of this argument to persuade the other party?
Because that usually never happens.

>>968331
>Why would you even consider them as separate games? That just doesn't make sense.
They were released separately, two different boxes, two different cartridges, two different release dates, two separate price tags.

>it was a nonissue because our parents simply got it for us.
Check your privilege, My parents sure as hell wouldn't shell money out of their asses from whatever the hell I wanted. I was lucky enough to receive S&K for a birthday present and I was grateful. Never owned Sonic 3, never got stiffed. Sonic and Knuckles is a complete game in its own right that has the bonus capability of locking on the previous two sonic games for extra content.

>>968350
>They were released separately, two different boxes, two different cartridges, two different release dates, two separate price tags.

Most expansion packs tend to work like that. The only difference is S&K works as a standalone because that would've been goofy to require 3 to play.

>>968331
>Is FF7 technically 3 different games just because it came on 3 discs?
Did you pay for each separate disc? Is each disc playable without the others?

>>968350
>They were released separately, two different boxes, two different cartridges, two different release dates, two separate price tags.
That is not a flaw inherent to the game itself. That's a symptom of the fact that the game was made by a business, a company who wanted to make money in an economic system consisting of scarce means of production and efficient allocation of resources. Not trying to sound smart but really, your complain has more to do with the market place itself than it does with the game. The game, conceptually, is nothing more than intellectual property and that's howi t should be judged.

>>968364
My complaint is with people who cling to this "S3&K" nonsense and adamantly argue that the two games are one when that is not the case.
Prior to /vr/ I had never heard of anyone referring to Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles as one game. And I owned S&K as a kid when it was released, it was always the sequel, the next step in the series.

>>968371
>Prior to /vr/ I had never heard of anyone referring to Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles as one game.

This has been common knowledge since the 90s, man. Where have you been? Did you never wonder why every single song from Sonic & Knuckles is in Sonic 3's sound test?

>>968371
>it was always the sequel, the next step in the series.
Then it would have been called, "Sonic 4"

>>968371
>Prior to /vr/ I had never heard of anyone referring to Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles as one game.

this is what happens when people read things on sonic retro and then repeat it over and over again

all of the information people peddle back and forth about sonic has really no place outside of the places the report it

>>968378
And Sonic CD would have been called Sonic 2

>>968347
If he's trolling, it'll become obvious soon enough. There's no reason not to offer rebuttals until it's clear he's rejecting any supporting arguments outright.

If nobody bothered arguing, 4chan would be a pretty empty place.

>>968380
>>Prior to [place or institute] I had never heard of [information and facts]

>>this is what happens when people [learn] things on [subject] and then [share that knowledge with others]


>>all of the information people peddle back and forth about [subject] has really no place outside of [place or institute]

And now you see the error of your ways. Lucky for science you don't run things.

>>968292
I don't get what you're saying. I'm using "go fast game" to point out what originally was Sonic main standpoint in comparison to its peers at the time. And the "old ones" are the ones I'm talking about. 2, 3 and SK.

>>968312
>Being a bit dramatic, don't you think?
A bit. The point is that an ideal Sonic level has a simple principle. Same startpoint, same endpoint, and in between, as much as you can pack in terms of routes. What this usually means is a top route which is faster or has more coins but requires skill, a middle route that requires some skill but is generally longer and a bottom route to punish the "hold right" crowd. Finally, between them an ideal route that allows you to shave substantial time but requires foreknowledge and skill. Levels 1.1/2 and 3.1/2 in Sonic 2 are perfect examples of this. Does 3 or SK do this, like once even? I was only inferring (dramatically, yes) that it might be down to that "same level with a different character is a whole different experience" thing. Although the powerups new powerups seem just as gimmicky.

>>968331
>trend
What was fashionable in 1994 =/= what makes a good game in 2013

>6 + 8 = ???
So, comparing 2 games to one. Fair enough.

>pathetic arguement
Spending twice the money for "one game" is a pathetic argument because your parents didn't limit your spendings as a kid? You'll find most kids can't type FUNDS and spend as much as they like.

>3 discs
On the same package. Bought once. For the price of one game. Not twice. Not for the price of 2 games. Not with 2 different titles.

>nothing left to learn
When did my character/personality become an issue? Oh that's right. No Arguments 101 dictates that as soon as you realize you have nothing to counter with, you attempt some character destroying in order to try and save face. I'll reiterate- 3 and S&K might be "better" games but the arguments presented in the post I replied to were not the why. They were "what I like is the best because I like it" crap.

You know how much trouble I went through to get into this menu? Well, not a whole lot, since I know the timing to this stupid code like the back of my hand, but still.

The fact that over 15 years later anybody would deny that Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were made simultaneously and were only split up because a 34 meg cartridge would have been astronomically expensive is ridiculous.

>>968397

Wait what? I'm saying a lot of the trivial things about Sonic don't have much context if people are trying to get to the bottom of why they think their favorite Sonic game is the best one.

If anything should have context in this thread it should be
>Well anon, I respect that you like Sonic 2 more than Sonic 3.
>However, It doesn't make Sonic 3 a less enjoyable game. Good day.

Lucky for me, I'm not really trying to sound intelligent or anything. I just go with my gut and try not to polarize discussions by weighing my opinions over other people and being super condescending. That's a problem a lot of you need to work on.

Your tastes do not make you a better man. What the shit, being a better man makes you a better man.

>>968371
>My complaint is with people who cling to this "S3&K" nonsense and adamantly argue that the two games are one when that is not the case.
>Prior to /vr/ I had never heard of anyone referring to Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles as one game. And I owned S&K as a kid when it was released, it was always the sequel, the next step in the series.

They freaking PLUG TOGETHER man. Is this really so difficult for your mind to grasp?

>>968412
This.

>>968408
>Although the powerups new powerups seem just as gimmicky.
You're welcome to think that way, but I'm gonna disagree. The 3 shields offered a new element to the game. Suddenly preserving these shields is a big deal, instead of being just an insurance policy against one hit, since they offer great mobility, certain immunities and other perks like electric's ring attract.

You may think this is game breaking at first, but I'd like to point out that preserving them is pretty difficult. Sonic games are made to be forgiving with the ring dropping and second chances to grab rings, etc. But suddenly a lot more is at stake to not take damage, yet isn't the end of the world if you do. And I think that is brilliant design.

>>968421
>and being super condescending. That's a problem a lot of you need to work on.

l o l

>>968427

Yep it's true. You guys get deep into a heated debate and then you start pulling at another person's country of origin and financial success instead of telling them they just have a bad opinion.

>>968423
Sonic 2 and Sonic and Knuckles plug together as well.
>>968412
So 3 stages form Sonic and Knuckles, is that it?

If you're going to judge a game you need not consider the format of its delivery as part of that judgement.

That's like if you reviewed the taste of mountain dew and cited the plastic bottle it comes in as a reason why it was bad.

It sounds stupid doesn't it? That's the same damn thing that happens when people say s3k isn't that good because its not one game.

>>966468
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXHNJD7wz0

It's a platformer - an unconventional one, but a platformer nevertheless.

>>968439
>That's like if you reviewed the taste of mountain dew and cited the plastic bottle it comes in as a reason why it was bad.

Haha, what if it comes in a rusty soup can?

>>968439
I don't think anyone will tell you Sonic 3 or Sonic and Knuckles, even SEPARATE are bad games. Unless they're biased as fuck. Because both are fun as hell.

>>968436
>So 3 stages form Sonic and Knuckles, is that it?

3 stages in plain text. Lava Reef is also present, but corrupted, for obvious reasons. I'd imagine most levels are hidden in the game's code somewhere. Nevermind the fact that, as has been said before, every song from Sonic & Knuckles' stages (And even its miniboss music) is present in Sonic 3's sound test.

I really don't know where you're going with this. Sonic 3 & Knuckles intent of being one game goes back a very, very long time. It's like the "Did you know Mario 2 was really a Japanese game called Doki Doki Panic?" of Sonic.

Hell, there's even a dated prototype of Sonic & Knuckles from April 1994, a mere two months after Sonic 3's release, that is simply Sonic 3 with the levels that would comprise Sonic & Knuckles in it ( http://tcrf.net/Proto:Sonic_%26_Knuckles ). S&K was originally intended to be a limited edition of Sonic 3 and would have cost about $100 before they decided to ingeniously release it as a standalone expansion with the capability to lock onto Sonic 3 and basically retain the same experience barring that you already had Sonic 3. Must have taken some incredible engineering but they were definitely determined to release the full Sonic 3 at a decent cost.

>>968425

My argument isn't that the shields are pointless, because they aren't, it's that I'm not entirely convinced their presence isn't detrimental to the game as a Sonic game. What you get is 3 specific instances where a powerup might determine your manner of playing. Magnet lets you ring hunt effectively, flame lets you dash in mid-air, bubble lets you explore underwater without a time limit. This might come across as an improvement, whereas what I think is that it limits the level design because the level suddenly has to cater to the powerups where present and that ultimately changes the way the levels are laid out between 2 and 3/SK, 2 ending faster and simpler and 3 being slower and "more gimmicky".

I'll argue it's more important that a Sonic game does speed and speed jumping right. Nail it down to a matter of taste if you will.

>>968485
What you're saying is the added content of the shields limits the gameplay, I guess? What, does having more than 1 gun in a FPS limit that as well? The powerups enhance speed and speed jumping, anyway.

Christ. Shouldn't you lot be arguing with Nintendrones instead of one another? Things were so much simpler during the 16bit wars. This cold war, on the other hand...

>>968497
>What you're saying is the added content of the shields limits the gameplay?

The gameplay that I think is centric to the "ideal" Sonic game, yes. It obviously doesn't limit the gameplay overall, what with providing new abilities, but it drives the core game away from what Sonic does best and into what could be any other platformer. Did it work? Obviously, otherwise 3/SK wouldn't have so many fans after all this time. I'm just not sure it made a better game.

As for the gun metaphor all you have to think about is the one game where that (in a sense) is true, Mirror's Edge. And why? Because the presence of guns does not get to determine that the game is a shooter at heart. It's not. It's a "go-fast" platformer. To go further in the metaphor, what would you think if I told you the next ME would have powerups that let you breath underwater, dash in mid-air or attract enemies' guns?

>>962992
>get sonic and knuckles
>plug in final fantasy 3

THAT's how you revive Leo!

>>968534
>To go further in the metaphor, what would you think if I told you the next ME would have powerups that let you breath underwater, dash in mid-air or attract enemies' guns?
I'd reserve judgment until I tried it, because that sounds neat as hell.

I'd approach it with an open mind because games are not meant to stay the same. Sequels add or change things, and in the case of the shields, I found it to be completely positive.

>>968534
It's really not the same situation though. Mirror's Edge is supposed to be heavily based in reality while the other stars a blue hedgehog with a massive head. So yes, it's going to sound a bit more absurd when you weigh the situations as equal.

>>968587
>that sounds neat as hell
You can't seriously say that inserting those things and turning one of the few unique first person games out there into a superhero powertrip not unlike dozens of others is acceptable, just because you want to prove me wrong. Come on.

>I'd approach it with an open mind because games are not meant to stay the same.
That's all fine and dandy, but again it's not something you *truly* believe. Not to mention that it doesn't always work out. Otherwise we'd be discussing Sonics 3D, Spinball and Adventure and you wouldn't be defending the merits of a 19 year old game.

>>968589
The point isn't about how sillier it sounds in comparison to the original ME. The point is new items introducing new gameplay mechanics that will alter the core experience of a series and whether they do that for its benefit or prejudice.

>>968618
>I DONT LIKE NEW THINGS

>>966387
Favourite zone of the S&K half, hydrocity for the other one.
Fuck sky sanctuary.

>>968618
When there are new mechanics that are bad, the problem is not that they are new, you know. The problem is they are bad.

Sega made classic-type Sonic games, and they were equally lackluster. The problem is not with the innovation itself.

>>968641
>that image
wat

>>962976
I am glad that there still are others that like the first Sonic game the most. It is my favorite Sonic game as well.

>>968350
>Check your privilege

Can we make this shitty meme a bannable offense? It's fucking arrow to the knee tier.

>>968673

>>968618
You can't just remake the same game with new levels. That looks lazy and many players would be bored by that. The way I see it: After 2-3 entries (depending if you count CD, more if you count the Master System titles which ARE different games) they had to change the formula. Fundamentally. Something like shields accomplishes that without making the game night-and-day different. It's still a Sonic game but it accomplishes innovation in a meaningful way that changes how the basic stages are navigated.

Perhaps "air dashing" would be absurd in a game like Mirror's Edge, but you can PROBABLY assume they'd find meaningful ways to tweak that formula for a sequel. Then again, the first game was only a couple hours long and players probably haven't gotten their fill of THAT formula yet.

>>968047
>Advance 1 is overrated and meh

Agreed. Only reason people say its the best advance was the physics. Overall gameplay was nothing new or special, though. It's not bad, but it's not really that great either.

>Advance 3 was actually pretty decent.

I'd go as far as calling it Good. It brought back 3 acts (Something I always liked about Sonic 1), had 20 possible character combos instead of just Sonic+Tails, along with giving those combos some interesting abilities. Chaos Angel is an amazing level, too.

Only thing I'd say I didn't like about it, was that Ocean Base has some of the most bullshit obstacles, and that Twinkle Snow was basically just the token snow/water level and didn't really separate itself from previous snow levels.

>>968682
>innovation
erm, no.
Another poster already expressed the shields as being gimmickry and I somewhat agree. After sonic 2 the well was going dry, some of the stages in sonic and knuckles and even sonic 3 start to feel like rehashes from the earlier entries. Pasting on some shields with abilities that really don't alter core gameplay is far from innovative.

>>968682
Yeah that guys logic is flawed as all fuck. I suppose according to him, the addition of new characters and giving them different moves than just "jump" is what ruined the franchise.

Everyobyd in S3 had a double jump move, and for Sonic, the shield abilities are part of that. They're just an extension of his special move. And he needed it - even if Insta-shield is over powered, it still lacks mobility compared to Tails and KTE, who can fly, glide, and climb. What the shields do, essentially, is give Sonic a literal double jump, either in terms of his Y location (lightning and bubble) or X location (fire). While in hyper form he can jump in any direction, almost like having all 3 shields at once. All of that combined is pretty OP for sure but that's why they made his mobility moves rely on items which can only be obtained by finding monitors and can only be maintained by skillful play. It's ingenious, really.

>>968695
>don't really alter the core gameplay
wat. if the shields don't do that for you, for the better, you're doing it wrong.

>>968695
>some of the stages in sonic and knuckles and even sonic 3 start to feel like rehashes from the earlier entries.
It's called "nods" and "callbacks." Casino Night was a cool zone and they somewhat tried to recapture that with Carnival Night. It's not a straight up rehash and has all kinds of new obstacles and features. It's only a rehash if you're a born pessimist. Just like your "gimmicky" is someone else's "innovation."

You really can't look at the stages in 3 or K and say they're all ripoffs or even too similar to other zones. That's just not true.

>>968682
>You can't just remake the same game with new levels.
I'm not arguing for that. I'm arguing that innovation for its own sake =/= improvement and that you should, from a design standpoint, keep true to what makes the series of games you're creating unique, because that's where its value lies. Take Doom 3, for instance. Brilliant piece of code. Innovative within its series. Great game, even. Best Doom game? Ask the Doom fans.

>they'd find meaningful ways to tweak that formula for a sequel.
They probably would. The point wasn't, however, that they couldn't but that in doing so, they'd be shifting the focus of the (now a series) game away from what made it unique.

>>968707
>flawed as all fuck.
Yeah I guess it would be from the standpoint of someone who comes away thinking that I said S3K
>ruined the franchise
But do find where I said that, please.

Also, what's flawed as all fuck is saying that Sonic "needed" his jumpslash or the shields is to make up for his deficiencies compared to Tails or Knuckles, as if they decided to put both characters in with their movesets *before* Sonic, regardless of the title of the game or that, you know, the levels are probably designed *after* you decide what character does what.

What's sad is that you DO realize just how this changes the gameplay between game but are adamantly refusing that there might be a person that thinks that, while playing a Sonic game, they'd rather it be focused on the basic physics model, the speed and jumping precision at speed, instead of exploring for powerups and "maintaining them through skillfull play".

If someone makes a demake of the Sonic 4 games, I want this

>>968821
>Also, what's flawed as all fuck is saying that Sonic "needed" his jumpslash or the shields is to make up for his deficiencies compared to Tails or Knuckles, as if they decided to put both characters in with their movesets *before* Sonic, regardless of the title of the game or that, you know, the levels are probably designed *after* you decide what character does what.

Well, whatever, they're there and we have to live with it. What did you want them to do, remove tails and knuckles respective abilities from the game so that everyone could only just jump? Give them their own separate game so you could only play as Sonic in S3? That wouldn't sell as well, and it would make for a worse, less interesting game with inherently less depth.

The reality is that no matter which character you play as, they're all just slightly different takes on the same Sonic formula developed in S1 and S2. Except for Knuckles having a lower jump height, they all run at the same speed and obey the same physics. They're all just Sonic with different animation sprites. It's part of what makes S3K such a great game, the fact the developers went to so much effort to create 3 distinct "classes" as options to please as many people as possible. Remember that you don't have to play as them, nor do you have to rely on the shield abilities to have an enjoyable, fast paced jumping experience as Sonic like the kind you describe here:

>they'd rather it be focused on the basic physics model, the speed and jumping precision at speed,
If you're not able to do that in S3 because of the shields or whatever, then you're simply doing it wrong. Learn to play, or go back to S2 and shut up.

>>968906
>It's part of what makes S3K such a great game
>a great game

Sonic 3
and
Sonic & Knuckles
are
>games

>>968950
No they aren't. We already discussed this. Read the thread.

>>965153
>>hair metal
>this is Sonic not Rock n Roll Racing.
You are twice as ignorant as the person you're quoting. Feel shame.

>>965516
>It was meant to be one game but the cartridges back then simply could not hold its awesome.
>No really, they couldn't fucking hold a game that size.
Heh, I remember reading ads in game magazines saying that it was the "only game too big to fit on a single cartridge."

That's rubbish though and you should feel foolish for believing it. Sonic 3 could have easily had all the S&K levels in it if the levels were finished.

>>968906
I think Knuckles has a lower top speed than Sonic actually. But that's neither here nor there.

>Be 10
>Playing sanic 3 and nukx
>pretty much memorize where the big rings are.
>so much fun
>g2g fayst
>find one
>oh no..
>MOOMM!!
>She didnt make it fast enough
>3d graphix
>blast prosccessing
>thow up
>Blood
>Crying blood, puke
>no choice but to try and beat it.
>mom is trying to wrestle me from the genisis
>its too late
>ITSNOUSE.jpg
>collecting blue balls
>every one i collect sends a shock into my dick
>raging erection
>bloody piss and cum sprayying everywhere
>collect a square
>turns into rings
>siezure
cont?

>>968906
>Well, whatever
No, not "well whatever". You don't start making a new Sonic game with the levels, then decide to put in a new character, then decide to give a secondary character a new moveset and only then worry about how the bloody main character is going to cope with your design decisions. That's idiotic reasoning.

>"classes" as options to please as many people as possible
I've said this already. "Pleasing as many people as possible" had a bad effect on level design as far as the centrepiece of Sonic should be in my opinion. Is that so hard to understand?

>If you're not able to do that in S3 because of the shields or whatever, then you're simply doing it wrong. Learn to play, or go back to S2 and shut up.
Right. This is the part where I step back and I leave the stupid angry "kid" talking to himself. That S3/SK are based on

>they made his mobility moves rely on items which can only be obtained by finding monitors and can only be maintained by skillful play

is YOUR fucking argument. Not mine. So maybe you're the one who needs to take that "LRN2PLAY" nugget that we see prop up whenever someone has no arguments, to heart. Also, I believe I already said I do go back to Sonic 2, but it's no surprise you didn't pick up on that since the paucity and repetitiousness of your arguments make me unsure that you know how to read. Also also, I'm typing, not talking.

>>968950
Don't bother. It's part of a console playing kid's repertoire that they will bend the laws of the space and time to fit their own reality in which the games they like are the bestest ones ever. Some of us grow up and change. Others continue insisting that 2 different cartridges that function separately, sold on 2 different boxes, with 2 different titles, at 2 different release dates, for the price of 2 games are 1 single game. Not only that, they won't even admit to being ripped off for paying for that "1 game" twice because like >>968331 said, money has no value.

>>968023
How does 3&K make levels easier?

>>970716
Not that guy, but I'm pretty sure the Launch Base boss fight is different between S3 and S3&K. I think the Hydrocity boss fight is also different, but I think it depends on whether you choose Knuckles or not.

>>962905
So in S2 you travel through various levels and in S3 all you had to do is follow the damn train?

>>970734
The launch base boss is different because it's a bridge from 3 to S&K.

All Knuckles bosses are different.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Sonic & Knuckles, is in fact, Sonic 3/Knuckles, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Sonic 3 plus Knuckles. Sonic & Knuckles is not a gotta-go-fast simulator unto itself, but rather another free (if you download the rom) component of a fully functioning Sonic 3 system made useful by the Sonic 3 bosses, Chaos Emeralds and vital level design comprising a full video game as defined by Sega.

Many Sega Genesis users run a modified version of the Sonic 3 system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Sonic 3 which is widely used today is often called "Sonic & Knuckles", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Sonic 3 system, developed by Sonic Team.

There really is a Sonic & Knuckles, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Sonic & Knuckles is the expansion pack: the game in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other games that you run. The expansion pack is an essential part of a gotta-go-fast simulator, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete gotta-go-fast simulator. Sonic & Knuckles is normally used in combination with the Sonic 3 gotta-go-fast simulator: the whole system is basically Sonic 3 with Knuckles added, or Sonic 3/Knuckles. All the so-called "Sonic & Knuckles" distributions are really distributions of Sonic 3/Knuckles.

>>970792

>>970792
>redundancies
>needlessly long comment
>literally repeating the same thing, but written differently

This isn't the comments section of some YouTube video.

>>970792
Ey cracka what ya smokin?

>>970820

>>970792
>>970792
what the fuck am I reading?

>>970815
>>970820
>>970824
>>970850
You guys seriously don't recognize the copypasta this was based on? Wow, /vr/ truly is no fun allowed.

I was making a joke. If any of you went to /g/, you'd get it.

>>970857
As soon as I read "interject", it sounded familiar. Doesn't mean that comment isn't the "I WANT THE TOP COMMENT ON A YOUTUBE VIDEO" kind.

>>970857
My sides man. I can't believe people ate this shit up.

Fucking saved.

>>970857
can you post the original pasta?

>>964924
This.

Sonic 3 complete is a masterpiece. That original intended level order is like the cherry on top. Not to mention the updated controls, specifically turning super/hyper when you actually want to.

>>970889
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

>>963048
Woahwoahwoah hold your horses man.
Robo Mcpingas is 6ft tall?
Holy shit

>>970903

I'm terribly sorry for interjecting another moment, but what I just told you is GNU/Linux is, in fact, just Linux, or as I've just now taken to calling it, Just.Linux. Linux apparently does happen to be a whole operating system unto itself and comprises a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Most computer users who run the entire Linux system every day already realize it. Through a peculiar turn of events, I was misled into calling the system "GNU/Linux", and until now, I was unaware that it is basically the Linux system, developed by the Linux project.
There really isn't a GNU/Linux, and I really wasn't using it; it is an extraneous misrepresentation of the system that's being used. Linux is the operating system: the entire system made useful by its included corelibs, shell utilities, and other vital system components. The kernel is already an integral part of the Linux operating system, never confined useless by itself; it functions coherently within the context of the complete Linux operating system. Linux is never used in combination with GNU accessories: the whole system is basically Linux without any GNU added, or Just.Linux. All the so-called "GNU/Linux" distributions are really distributions of Linux.

>>970868
Jeez, lighten up. It was meant to break the tension and be funny.

>>970921
I knew about this, but bravo.

>>970952

I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Mac OS X, is in fact, BSD/OS X, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Mac plus BSD. Mac OS X is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning BSD system made useful by the BSD corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the BSD system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of BSD which is widely used today is often called “OS X”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the BSD system, developed by the BSD Project.
There really is a Mac OS X, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Mac OS X is the UI: the program in the system that creates the pretty graphics. The UI is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Mac OS X is normally used in combination with the BSD operating system: the whole system is basically BSD with Mac OS X added, or BSD/OS X. All the so-called “Mac OS X” versions are really distributions of BSD/OS X.

>>970959
>Remember the bots?
How could I forget? That was the funniest shit on all of 4chan back when it was going on.

>>970963
http://pastebin.com/Q9VwEMfk

Man, it trolled the /g/entlemen so hard moot blocked that shit.

My sides

>>962937
Do you know that most of S&K's content is locked on the S3 cart?

>>971013
Much like any modern Capcom game's DLC is locked on the disc.

>>970857
>>970884

>>971152
>He has a sense of humor! Better call him a /b/tard.

>>970857
I was gonna TL;DR but then I read and wow my sides. Fukken saved.

>>970792
Only problem with this: change "distributions" in the last sentence to "rom hacks"

>>970407
>You don't start making a new Sonic game with the levels, then decide to put in a new character, then decide to give a secondary character a new moveset and only then worry about how the bloody main character is going to cope with your design decisions. That's idiotic reasoning.
They're all main characters you dolt. They're all essentially Sonic. That scenario you just described is indeed idiotic but you're right about one thing: you don't do that. And neither did Sonic Team. Because that's not what happened when they designed the game.

This is all irrelevant at this point anyway and everyone is laughing at you grabbing at straws in a desperate, feeble attempt to win an arguement online. For example:
>Also also, I'm typing, not talking.
Lel. Sorry, chief for not being 100% literal and accurate here. I can't argue with that though, congratuations, you are now a master debater.

Stop being so petty and just accept that you are wrong.

>>971152
>muh no fun
>>>/v/

>>972130
Call me a hypocrite for dragging myself into this thread again after say I'd leave you talking to yourself. Consider it for the benefit of anyone else that might be reading and not yours, since you're too far gone.

>Stop being so petty and just accept that you are wrong.
Contrary to the people you probably have "arguements" with and from whom you appear to have taken your arguing "skills", I'm not obtuse enough as to be unable to admit to being mistaken. In fact, let's recap and show everyone how wrong I am.

My initial claim:
>3 or S&K might be "better" games than 2 but those horrible arguments stink of "it's better bc I like it more".

Your arguments:
>Plot
Called out on it, didn't retort

>that fast paced Sonic action
Gets told Sonic 2 is the poster for that, doesn't retort**

>plenty of levels
Shown they individually have less levels than 2, retorted with "it's 1 game"

>(it's 1 game)
Shown by me and others that they aren't and why, didn't address any of the arguments, still claims he's right.

>were meant to be one game, all on one cartridge
Yet they aren't. When confronted with buying them separately, counters with "money has no value bc we were kids". Also, compared them with FF7 because it's on 3 discs (lol).

>tons of replay value as you could play as Sonic, Tales, Sonic&Tales
Admits that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are all the same thing "They're Sonic with different sprites"

>trend
Told fashion isn't an argument when arguing an old game's quality, didn't retort

>(questions my attitude towards the game and life in general)
lol

(at this point, either leaves thread or morphs into a much more reasonable persona, with whom I debate the differences in the three games. The arguments I present are challenged but not countered and we reach a relative agreement of disagreement, based on the 2 and 3/SK's differences in chars/powerups/level design while each maintaining that the quality of any given Sonic game derives from a different gameplay philosophy)

>>974087
(Cont'd)

(Senses "blackup", returns in force)

>I suppose according to him (...) ruined the franchise
Starts "putting words in my mouth". I never claimed S3/SK ruined anything, or said anything about their overall quality, except when in relation to Sonic 2.

(introduces new, tangentially related argument)
>Everyobyd in S3 had a double jump move (...)
Gets told is reasoning is idiotic, retorts with "Well, whatever", eventually admits I'm right: "Because that's not what happened when they designed the game."

>they made his mobility moves rely on items which can only be obtained by finding monitors and can only be maintained by skillful play
Makes my earlier point (which I'd discussed with the other, much more reasonable gent) without realizing it. Never attempts to question my idea of the correct philosophy behind a Sonic game; never tackles the level design. Gets called on it. Retorts with:
>LRN2PLAY OR SHUT UP :(
I enjoyed wringing that one off him, must admit

>"classes" as options to please as many people as possible
I thought you said already that they're all Sonic with different sprites? No matter, because I actually played the game and realize certain levels have small differences depending on character, I decide to call him out again. Admits (again) that "They're all essentially Sonic."

>everyone is laughing at you
Doesn't realize he's the only one arguing with me; Thinks I, an anonymous 4C denizen, care.

>Lel. Sorry, chief for not being 100% literal and accurate here.
Decides to tackle the punchline I added for comedic effect instead of the arguments, like in most of his posts described above.

>>974091
To conclude-

For everyone else: Here you have an example of what is commonly know as a "Fanboy". This type of irrational behaviour is what gives that word such a negative connotation and a part of what makes gaming today still get sideways looks from all the older, more snobbish hobbies. Notice the anger, the delusion(s), the poor grammar, the lack of understanding of the conventions of an argument, the belief he speaks for a(n up to now completely invisible) mass majority. This, my friends, is a dangerous beast. Avoid at all costs. /Attenborough

As for you: You're embarassing. 2 fucking eyes and the ability to read would have given you all you needed to resolve this issue, basically by noticing what I originally claimed. Not that 2 was better than 3 or SK, but that your arguments were shit. You could have used that shit you have between your ears, but no. Fanboy Paladin anger took over, you raised your sword of "Redditcirclejerk" and your shield of "Popularopinion" and you tripped over the first fucking rat in the dungeon and stabbed yourself in the face.
>comparing yourself to a rat
Yeah I don't have much consideration for either myself or my knowledge of Sonic; the whole point of the original post was to prompt the appearance of someone who you could call an actual expert, the likes of which make /vr/ 1000 more times a better place today than that shithole /v/, that could actually enlighten us. Yet you showed up. Whelp, teasing imbeciles is always entertaining.

>ITT: I'm not nearly as mad as you think I am

Sonic 2 and Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles are different games.

Sonic 2 primarily focuses on speed, speed and more speed. The game is insanely fun and represents what most people think Sonic games should be like.

Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles brought back the platforming/obstacle elements of Sonic 1 but does it much better than Sonic 1 ever did. They're both excellent games, definitely on par with Sonic 2 as an overall package. However, Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles are objectively better in some technical aspects (such as graphics and animations). Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles also had an entertaining narrative that was a bit more in-depth than your usual Genesis Sonic game but wasn't obtrusive given its style of narrative.

Overall, they're both amazing games but represent two sides of the Sonic series. Personally, I prefer Sonic 2 but if I were going to play any other Sonic game, it would Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles.

>>974087
>3 or S&K might be "better" games than 2 but those horrible arguments stink of "it's better bc I like it more".
Isn't that the foundation for all claims of something being better? Opinions are subjective man. There is no literal "better game." People are going to be rubbed in just the right way by one or the other.

>>974882
>>974882

everything about this post is spot on.

Sonic 2 is my favorite as well, and regarding speed, I think my fastest play through is about 38 minutes. nb nb

This /v/ mentality is getting really shitty folks.

This thread really spiraled out of control.

At some point you really have to accept that different people think different elements make for the best game. Because all this... this is just too much. Nobody is standing on the rock of objective truth here.

>>974915
>Nobody is standing on the rock of objective truth here.

Except for >>974882

How much would the PAL version of Sonic 3 and the sonic&knuckle adaptor thingey would go for?

A women at a flea market asked me 50 bucks for them. I walked away without saying a word.

>>974918
Still pretty doused with opinion.

>what most people think Sonic games should be like.
Highly debatable. S3&K and Sonic 2 are both extremely popular. I doubt you can definitively say which most people think a Sonic game should be.

>>974926
That's your only criticism? Please, try harder.

>>974928
Try harder at what? You just said it was objective truth. I said it wasn't. What are you looking for?

>>974930
There are parts where the post expresses opinion (and makes it clear as such), but the analysis is objective. No one claimed that it was "100% completely factual in every aspect" just that it was standing on "objective truth" which is, in fact, true.

So please, try harder at thinking.

>>974941
Where did I say there weren't parts that were true? Are you trying to paint me as your enemy or something? I was pointing out the PART that I didn't agree with.

I realize this thread probably put you in fight mode, but let it go man.

What is the most i should pay for S&K?

Somebody cut the box up and put it in a VHS type case.

from another thread
>>975000

>>975012
Had a feeling you posted that. It was steeped in the same irrational bias you've displayed all thread.

>>975020
>you
Who is "you"? I haven't posted at all in this thread. Just pointing out my post in the other thread.

>>975026
Nice save.

>>975032
Stop being a dumb, paranoid child thinking that only one person can have an opinion that differs from yours.

>>975035
>Even if you're right this time!

>>975026
You're a fucking faggot go back to playing your 5fps Mario while real gamers handle the speeds of Sonic with lighting fast reflexes, fucking pussy.

>>974959
>Where did I say there weren't parts that were true?

Apparently you cannot read, because I never even asserted that.

>I was pointing out the PART that I didn't agree with.

But the point was the idea of speaking of the games objectively. Not whether you agreed with something or not.

Holy shit, man. I seriously think you need to work on your reading comprehension because you apparently have no clue what's being said or what's even going on.

>>975084
Please leave /vr/ forever. We don't need posters who are antagonistic just for the sake of antagonism. /v/ is much more your speed.

>>975032
He's telling the truth, assuming you meant the guy that made the 3 consecutive posts above and has been arguing this for the last 2 or 3 days. Because that's me. And before you go there, I had no need to start "multiplying" during the debate and certainly not now that it's over.

Cool to see that other people enjoy 2 better than s3k and are willing to see bullshit arguments for what they are, tho.

>>974897
>Isn't that the foundation for all claims of something being better? Opinions are subjective man. There is no literal "better game." People are going to be rubbed in just the right way by one or the other.
Well, yes and no. Like I said, the intention was never really to prove him wrong but the prove his reasoning worthless. To expose the fanboy and hope for an "expert" opinion.

I agree completely, though, about there being no absolute better game, not when taste and priorities change as often as they do in gaming. The "plot" point has some relation. Twenty years ago, it's fresh and innovative, today it's an impediment to gameplay. Besides, absolutes rub me the wrong way, whatever the kind.

I'm perfectly willing, though, to accept a generic view that game A is better than game B (regardless of the point behind the claim) if someone defends A over B with well thought out arguments and demonstrates superior knowledge of the series/genre and is able to address the concerns put against him, even if at the very base of it is something as basic as personal opinion. I'd happily concede that until someone can come in and put up a better argument and it'd have no bearing on my enjoyment of either game or the fact that my personal favorite is B and not A.

>>975114
But you started this by antagonizing me. I think you should really check your own actions and responses.

>>975131
Bullshit. This all started when you told me to "try harder" when I pointed out something was an opinion. You can't play the victim when you are actively looking for a fight.

>>975142
No, that's just the point where you personally felt antagonized. I'm explaining to you that your previous actions were antagonistic from my point of view. Empathy. This is basic stuff.

>>975247
You felt antagonized... that I was diffusing the situation by claiming something was subjective? And telling me to "try harder at thinking" was just me personally feeling antagonized, not actually being so?

5/10. You've dragged me along for long enough, but you tipped your hand.

>start new game
>go to first giant ring
>collect Chaos Emerald
>reset console
>open up save game
>go to first giant ring
>collect second Chaos Emerald
>etc etc

>>975361
Unless there's precise timing to the reset, that doesn't work. Because rings are gone after you use them.

Not that you even needed to do that to find enough bonus rings.

>>963016
CUMMONIST FEGIT

>>975692
You can get them all by the end of Marble Garden Act 1 anyway. There's no shortage of rings in any stage except Flying Battery. I've never found the rings in that stage.

>>976509
>There's no shortage of rings in any stage except Flying Battery. I've never found the rings in that stage.

Wait what. Did you miss the trick on the first stage of Sonic 3 where you can spindash rocks? In Flying Battery you can do that with 2 spiky "blocks" under it with a draw of a tunnel. One of them I remember it was on a room with those orange flying wheels in the higher route. There was also one big ring right before the boss, you had to take advantage of a spring and to imediatly to your left or try to spindash from the right to do a big jump to the left. That was always the 3 I knew in both acts. I would always have the 7 emerowds at least in Lava Reef act 1.

>>977738
In Sonic & Knuckles, you could get most of the super emeralds in the first two areas before the boss.

>>977796

I know that now. When I was a kid I didn't because never cared to back on Mushroom Hill act 2 and find more paths, just chose one and tried different ones in each play. But the FBattery ones I actually found on the first try.

Remember that spring yard in Lava Reef act 1? The one full of rings. There was a big ring right up in there and I tried and tried that as a kid to reach that one just as a whim, but fuck, when I got it it felt good.

The only sonic game that I geniunely like is 3D Blast, but that mostly has to do with my love affair with pre-rendered graphics. SegaSonic The Hedgehog is tied for second with Sonic 3& Knuckles though

>>977913

I played that game on the x-mas(96?) since it was one of my x-mas gifts. So I have good memories of playing that. But the game is just fine, the levels are most of them are mediocre, I just had true fun in the 2nd level, the ice one, the springyard and one of the last 2 stages, so half game. Special stage I liked it, but not the best in the series. Soundtrack is god tier though.

>segasonic

Never played, but saw a guy playing on stream. It seemed hard to get the handle of it but fun as fuck.

>>977947
>It seemed hard to get the handle of it
That's because it's supposed to be played with a trackball. They were going to put it on Sonic Mega Collection, but they had problems trying to emulate the trackball, so they scrapped it

>>977913
How do even manage to enjoy such terrible controls and the vomit-inducing perspective, anyway?

>>977956
They made console versions of Marble Madness game, which just so happen to be a trackball game.

They just didn't try hard enough.

>>977960
The control scheme is actually fairly bearable on Mega Collection and the perspective never really bothered me that much. I've played enough of Snake Rattle And Roll to the point where I'm used to it

>>977960
The controls on the Mega Collection port are pretty bearable and I've played enough of Snake Rattle 'N Roll and Pac-Mania to the point where I'm used to Isometric perspective

>>977963

The problem is that Sega can't into emulation in some of the older games. At least Megacollection, Gems and Sonic collection had its damn issues. In Sonic Collection special stages in Sonic 3 are impossibro since its speed is way to high compared to the original versions. SoRage also have speed issues with their enemies being faster when hidding themselves from the screen to not get hit by you.